Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Groups keyboard shortcuts have been updated
Dismiss
See shortcuts

Furry Citizenship: An Ultimatum

65 views
Skip to first unread message

WAND...@hush.com

unread,
Aug 28, 2005, 1:45:38 PM8/28/05
to
Shanda Fantasy Arts and many of the Kadaitcha Dancers have been talking
about this for a long time but I don't think any of you have been
paying attention. Sure we've got many furs making sarcastic quips
towards Sibe, but are any of you DOING anything about the piracy
problem? I don't think you care enough. Really, I don't. So let me
give you some motivation!

I know who you are. I know who downloaded the torrent. I know who has
friended Sibe via his livejournal logs. I know the artists who support
his piracy crimes and I know all the "friends of friends" who keep
quiet in the face of this injustice. It's time you all start acting
more like patrons and citizens and less like leeches and drama whores.
I'm fed up with you messing with this operation and getting my journals
banned, so I'm taking the war TO YOU. Mike and Carol Curtis drew the
line months ago, but I don't think it reaches the problem, so I'm
drawing it further. This is no longer about boycotting conventions.
It's about boycotting YOU.

I also know who chooses to do business with the rogue artists that back
Sibe. So, you've bought some stuff from Shawntae Howard? Good.
Points for you. How about DaiWuff? Your social demerits will be
unbearable. You can either support the furry fandom, or you can
support Sibe. Either way, the Kadaitcha Dancers will make your choices
consequential.

Already SFA has proceeded with a lawsuit, but the music doesn't stop
there. The Kadaitcha Dancers will not rest until everyone has paid
their karma debt, so it's time for you to take responsiblity for your
actions for once.

- WANDJINA, THE FINAL DANCER

Swipecat

unread,
Aug 28, 2005, 3:13:16 PM8/28/05
to
WAND...@hush.com wrote:
>Shanda Fantasy Arts and many of the Kadaitcha Dancers have been talking
>about this for a long time but I don't think any of you have been
>paying attention. Sure we've got many furs making sarcastic quips
>towards Sibe, but are any of you DOING anything about the piracy
>problem? I don't think you care enough. Really, I don't. So let me
>give you some motivation!

I've been taking one of the more extreme anti-Sibe stances in this group
so far, but THIS has got me annoyed. There's just the possibility that
this is a Sibe supporter trying to damage his opponents, but I'll take
it at face value for the moment.

This is the sort of crap that got Burned Fur hated so much. Scattergun
accusations against a whole group whether they have the power to do
anything about a problem or not.

> .. It's time you all start acting
>more like patrons and citizens and less like leeches and drama whores. ...

YOU ALL?

You pompous prat.

>I also know who chooses to do business with the rogue artists that back
> Sibe. So, you've bought some stuff from Shawntae Howard? Good.
>Points for you. How about DaiWuff? Your social demerits will be
>unbearable. You can either support the furry fandom, or you can
>support Sibe. Either way, the Kadaitcha Dancers will make your choices
>consequential.

I didn't like what DaiWuff/White-Wolf was doing either, and I attacked
some of Sibe's supporters myself, but trying to cause trouble for
friends-of-friends in the way that you're suggesting is GUARANTEED to
alienate people and cause a backlash against yourself.

>Already SFA has proceeded with a lawsuit, but the music doesn't stop
>there. The Kadaitcha Dancers will not rest until everyone has paid
>their karma debt, so it's time for you to take responsiblity for your
>actions for once.

Think a lot of yourself, don't you?

--
Farry/Swipecat

Swipecat

unread,
Aug 28, 2005, 4:06:05 PM8/28/05
to
Following up on the thought that this might be a hoax by a Sibe
supporter, I looked at the NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.219.19.22
(nhttp.scs.es). Somewhere in Spain, then.

www.scs.edu has a webpage with the title:
"Departament de Sanitat i Seguretat Social. Servei Català de la Salut"
and a redirect to the webpage www10.gencat.net/catsalut/cat/index.htm

Is that a Catalan language?

Anyway, unless one of the Kadaitcha Dancers is Catalan, I'd guess that
the poster of the message hacked into a Catalan newsserver. Would the
KDs preach about proprietary rights and then do something like that?
Admittedly, they've come across as something less than mature, but
still...

--
Farry/Swipecat

DLNorton

unread,
Aug 28, 2005, 4:18:54 PM8/28/05
to
These kinds of diatribes is why I pulled away from the fandom in the
first place. A lot of folks had to go and think they are so
self-important that you were either with them or against them. I
personaly don't care about what Sibe does either way...niether do I
support him...and niether do I support the fandom this way. And if you
think that you can boycott whatever I do...then have at it. Most of my
fan base is quite varied..some "furry", some "other"...so it just
doesn't matter what direction you take. I'm just one artist in a vast
sea of artists. Granted, I've made a few personal friends here and
there within this fandom.

So boycott away!! If you think this'll get you that recognition you're
looking for...then have at it. More power to you. Oh...and I don't go
around looking at torrnets..mainly because I'm not savvy enough to use
the programs, and from what I understand..from other sources... my
stuff isn't in any of them...as far as I know. (Unless something
changes)

-D.L.Norton

DLNorton

unread,
Aug 28, 2005, 4:20:58 PM8/28/05
to
If it is a hoax Swipecat..they really put a lot of effort and
vocabulary in it just to get a lot of anti-ANTI-Sibe shit going...

-D.L.Norton

Swipecat

unread,
Aug 28, 2005, 4:52:08 PM8/28/05
to
"DLNorton" <shad...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>If it is a hoax Swipecat..they really put a lot of effort and
>vocabulary in it just to get a lot of anti-ANTI-Sibe shit going...

Maybe... maybe... Then again, it's sooo stupidly counterproductive...
and I guess I could've written something like that myself, if I'd put my
mind to damaging the KDs.

Another thought - a websearch on talk about Sibe shows that some of the
people that go out of their way to mock furries like SA members do
relish Sibe's wrecking effect on the fandom - and some of them are good
writers in their satirical nastiness...

Anyway, I'll stop speculating now.

--
Farry/Swipecat

White Wolf

unread,
Aug 28, 2005, 7:49:48 PM8/28/05
to
Swipecat wrote:
> Following up on the thought that this might be a hoax by a Sibe
> supporter, I looked at the NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.219.19.22
> (nhttp.scs.es). Somewhere in Spain, then.
>
> www.scs.edu has a webpage with the title:
> "Departament de Sanitat i Seguretat Social. Servei Català de la Salut"
> and a redirect to the webpage www10.gencat.net/catsalut/cat/index.htm


I get Anchorage, AK. o.o


-White

Caleb

unread,
Aug 28, 2005, 8:04:39 PM8/28/05
to


You, sir, are not intimidating. Ok?

How about realizing that the fact that my fiancee is friends with Sibe,
and attempted to download the torrent (She was mostly interested in the
Sonic episodes), doesn't mean that her friends for years are
automatically going to turn their backs on her. It's not possible dude.
I mean, seriously you're making a laughing stock of yourself. There are
a LOT of furs who don't even know who Sibe is or even care. There are
even more furs that would much rather have a good time at furry social
gatherings than care about who's stealing pr0n from who.

How about we do something new for once. Me and Dai are going to be at
MFM. If you'd like to talk about these issues you have with the voices
in your head...or whatever...please, I invite you to do so. I'm more
than willing (and eager) to talk these things out, perhaps shine the
light on the who and why of my choice in friends, and I'm fully willing
to listen to your side provided you can do so with an even temper.

However; I have a shade of doubt that someone could be stupid and
assinine enough to post this tripe all over the internet and expect to
be taken seriously. Because I don't. This is way too funny and too
counterproductive to serve anyone's cause other than that of a troll.
Yet, self-defeating of me if that's the case to bother to reply, but I'm
willing to give this the benefit of a doubt.

Anyway; You're really not hurting anyone socially than yourself. Ive
seen one or two people posting on this group, people who very much don't
like Sibe, that I consider to be good people but obviously don't realise
that I DONT ASSIST SIBE IN PIRATING FURRY ART. I have no desire to. Ive
yet to see much of anything come out of furry, artwise, that I'm really
interested in. But it's a moot point really. If I'm friends with Sibe,
even if I just list him as a friend on a blog, I'm somehow this horrible
person. Ok. Fine. BOYCOTT ME. Alright.


Caleb
Badger

Spirou

unread,
Aug 28, 2005, 8:49:22 PM8/28/05
to
In article <el54h112k86q3148e...@4ax.com>,
Swipecat <swip...@see.replyto.header> wrote:

> Following up on the thought that this might be a hoax by a Sibe
> supporter, I looked at the NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.219.19.22
> (nhttp.scs.es). Somewhere in Spain, then.
>
> www.scs.edu has a webpage with the title:
> "Departament de Sanitat i Seguretat Social. Servei Català de la Salut"
> and a redirect to the webpage www10.gencat.net/catsalut/cat/index.htm
>
> Is that a Catalan language?

Yes.

"Department of Health and Social Security. Catalonian Health Services"

They're located on Barcelona, Spain, and they're a government entity.
Whoever posted this is using Mozilla/5.0 with Windows NT 5.1 thru
Google, so using this, plus the IP (146.219.19.22), I get several hits
on pages related to Video Poker, online poker, and Poker Strategies.

Whoever he is, he is really into Poker,..

...Really, really into Online Poker, Specially Texas Hold'em:
http://www.pacificpoker.com/
http://www.888-poker.com
http://www.poker-on-net.com
http://www.poker-tourney.com
http://www.partypoker.com

Looking up an old Sibe post, he is using Mozilla/5.0 with Windows NT 5.1
posting thru Google, so unless somebody knows if he likes to play poker,
I'm out of suggestions.

> Anyway, unless one of the Kadaitcha Dancers is Catalan, I'd guess that
> the poster of the message hacked into a Catalan newsserver. Would the
> KDs preach about proprietary rights and then do something like that?
> Admittedly, they've come across as something less than mature, but
> still...

Of the two entities, only "He who must not be named" has been accuse,
and has bragged, of hacking into computers,... Wait a minute,... He did
hacked into a Spanish server once a while back:

http://groups.google.com/group/fur.artwork.erotica/browse_frm/thread/5c45
ef39b1c71d50/eabe153a7cb02664?lnk=st&q=sibe+telefonica&rnum=1&hl=en

...When he was still running #furryxdcc, he accessed a lone server used
by Spain's Telefonica (Spain Goverment's Phone carrier) to distribute a
.zip full of Furry warez:

http://personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/mp3-zone/New_starter_pack_setup.z
ip

That's all I could quickly find. Just FYI

Spirou

unread,
Aug 28, 2005, 8:55:20 PM8/28/05
to
In article <v4sQe.2244$tB5.30@okepread06>,
White Wolf <whit...@denofwovles.com> wrote:

> I get Anchorage, AK. o.o
>
> -White

Try this one:
http://www.ripe.net/fcgi-bin/whois?searchtext=146.219.19.22

Josh M.

unread,
Aug 28, 2005, 8:58:01 PM8/28/05
to
Eep, forgot to post whoever "Poker" guy is, he has only been using this
IP since August.

Lord Ryven

unread,
Aug 28, 2005, 9:31:07 PM8/28/05
to
hi,
I'm Lord Ryven, and I'm sure you've heard of me.

I don't really follow fag current events but my friend told me directly
about your thing with sibe, and I'm inspired to help the cause...

So I'm gonna help feed the torrent with my T3 line...

on top of that, I'm considering paying sibe 500 bucks a month to
maintain his activities jjust cause I think you guys are some goofy ass
fags.

Thank you..

The Greater God,

Lord Ryven


PS.. I realy wonder if anyone is going to rally around this fag.

Caleb

unread,
Aug 28, 2005, 10:08:17 PM8/28/05
to

Dude....you're my fuckin hero.

seriously

Caleb

Wanderer

unread,
Aug 29, 2005, 12:17:20 AM8/29/05
to
"Lord Ryven" <L0rd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1125279067.5...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> hi,
> I'm Lord Ryven, and I'm sure you've heard of me.

<shrug> Nope. Doesn't ring a bell.

>
> I don't really follow fag current events but my friend told me directly
> about your thing with sibe, and I'm inspired to help the cause...

You mean you're actually going to learn that calling a fandom overwhelmingly
interested in women's overendowed bustlines "fags" is about as ridiculous as
calling Richard Simmons "masculine"?

>
> So I'm gonna help feed the torrent with my T3 line...

Ooo, an independently wealthy idiot. Hello, Mr. Perot.

>
> on top of that, I'm considering paying sibe 500 bucks a month to
> maintain his activities jjust cause I think you guys are some goofy ass
> fags.

Hey, your money, waste it if you want. Judging by the stories, he'll
probably ask to "repay" you, so if you swing that way... well, and you're a
guy...

What's that? Well, the fandom isn't, no. He seems to be, however...

>
> Thank you..
>
> The Greater God,

I'm sorry, Apprentice Muse of Comedy just doesn't qualify...

>
> Lord Ryven
>
>
> PS.. I realy wonder if anyone is going to rally around this fag.
>

No, Sibe isn't quite that popular. Just ask him.

Yours wolfishly,

The bemused,

Wanderer
wand...@ticnet.com

"Where am I going? I don't quite know.
What does it matter *where* people go?
Down to the woods where the bluebells grow!
Anywhere! Anywhere! *I* don't know!"
-- a. a. milne


Terrible Trotsky

unread,
Aug 29, 2005, 9:31:09 AM8/29/05
to
Swipecat <swip...@see.replyto.header> bowed down before Ramesses in

the palace of alt.fan.furry and said:

>some of the
>people that go out of their way to mock furries

I've noticed that lot of the people who mock furries "force"
themselves to sit through explicit anal action furry animations so
that they can complain afterwards how awful and evil and horrible and
mind bending it is.

They're just as furry as you or me. :D

It all comes down to Internet cool.

Being a furry is about enthuasism for and enjoyment of Anthros.

Being Internet cool is about hating enthusiasm and honesty and
maintaining an ironic and mocking detachment from everything.

---
"no loot equalled this one, nor in the indies was there
ever found such wealth"

Terrible Trotsky

unread,
Aug 29, 2005, 9:31:12 AM8/29/05
to
"DLNorton" <shad...@yahoo.com> bowed down before Ramesses in the

palace of alt.fan.furry and said:

>So boycott away!! If you think this'll get you that recognition you're
>looking for...then have at it. More power to you. Oh...and I don't go
>around looking at torrnets..mainly because I'm not savvy enough to use
>the programs

Just download bitlord, click on a torrent link, uncheck the boxes for
the stuff you don't want, and then sit back and wait for it to
download.

iBuck

unread,
Aug 29, 2005, 12:03:28 PM8/29/05
to
> Shanda Fantasy Arts and many of the Kadaitcha Dancers have been talking
> about this for a long time but I don't think any of you have been
> paying attention.

That's because both of you are basically demanding that other people
takes steps that won't actually stop sibe, and are backing your demands
with threats, funny how people reject that kind of tactic...

>Sure we've got many furs making sarcastic quips
> towards Sibe, but are any of you DOING anything about the piracy
> problem? I don't think you care enough. Really, I don't. So let me
> give you some motivation!
>

>Mike and Carol Curtis drew the
> line months ago, but I don't think it reaches the problem, so I'm
> drawing it further.

Of course not, they drew the line in completly the wrong place...


>This is no longer about boycotting conventions. It's about boycotting YOU.

Oh, more ineffectual calls to action that won't actually -do- anything
to gum up sibe's efforts...

Of course, if you end up boycotting everyone who you don't think is
being -quite- rabid enough, you'll prolly just find that you're the
ones who have effectivly become boycotted...

> I also know who chooses to do business with the rogue artists that back
> Sibe.

Riiigghttt.... and being this omniscient font of info, you've provided
unimpeachable evidence, able to -solidly- tie the actions of "Sibe" to
the Ross Reddick and prove that he in fact is the one uploading stuff
to the torrent, and I don't just mean bragging on usenet, but IP
traces that are backed by the ISP's in question?

> Already SFA has proceeded with a lawsuit

News to me, but about time....

Much better trying to shut him down legally, getting his equimpmet
seized or getting him locked up, that calling for Sibe to be banned
fromthe small group of conventions that SFA can threaten, which may or
may not be his source for materials, and which almost certianly not
stop him...

Of course it's a little hazy exactally how the conventions that refuse
to ban Sibe are "enabling" him.. I'd guess it's not the SIGs, how to
host a pirate torrent panels have been noticably absent, I didn't get
hit up to share files at the dance at AC, and while the folks at the
masquerade -might- have padded their costumes with CD's full of pirated
art, they were throwing ballons out to the audiance, not bootleg art...

It must be the dealer's room that's the source of the problem, a place
where I've yet to see the constaff putting guns to the dealers head and
forcing them to sell to folks who come up to their table. Sibe is
getting his stuff by -buying- it there, so why is it the con's
responsibilty to throw themselves beteeen a dealer and the slimeball's
cash?

If SFA and other artist's don't want Sibe to pirate their works, DON'T
SELL TO HIM, you can refuse to sell to him, just as much as the con can
refuse to sell him a membership...

But then if refusing to sell to sibe won't cut off his supply, will
banning him do any better, or is there going to have to be a widening
net, of people banned or boycotted before a effect shows, if -ever-...

Swipecat

unread,
Aug 29, 2005, 4:17:18 PM8/29/05
to
dsa...@yahoo.co.uk (Terrible Trotsky) wrote:

>I've noticed that lot of the people who mock furries "force"
>themselves to sit through explicit anal action furry animations so
>that they can complain afterwards how awful and evil and horrible and
>mind bending it is.
>
>They're just as furry as you or me. :D
>
>It all comes down to Internet cool.
>
>Being a furry is about enthuasism for and enjoyment of Anthros.
>
>Being Internet cool is about hating enthusiasm and honesty and
>maintaining an ironic and mocking detachment from everything.

Heh. Yes indeed. You're thinking of a certain web forum where the
members obsess day after day on extreme fetishes - linked to furry where
they can find it, but not in all cases.

I do wonder if some of them do this knowingly - having found a way to
sate their need to wallow in excess to their hearts content, and yet
have a disclaimer ready - they're just poking fun. And if you look at
the description of the site that one of the moderators has written for
WikiFur, I think that I do detect a hint of nudge-nudge-wink-wink there.
That said, it's clear that many of the members are genuinely so messed
up that (day after day, year after year) they must continuously pick
over things that they resent and blame for damaging their enjoyment of
Disney cartoons or whatever.

One good thing - I will give them credit for "sandboxing" a few extreme
bores that would otherwise be blighting this and other furry forums.

--
Farry/Swipecat

iBuck

unread,
Aug 30, 2005, 9:45:10 AM8/30/05
to

> I'm Lord Ryven, and I'm sure you've heard of me.

> I'm gonna help feed the torrent with my T3 line...


>
> on top of that, I'm considering paying sibe 500 bucks a month to
> maintain his activities

Glad to know that the fandom has finally got an easilly identifiable
face to serve with the infringment lawsuits, be fun to see you squirm
in court...

FuzzWolf

unread,
Aug 30, 2005, 11:14:17 PM8/30/05
to

"iBuck" <lncra...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1125409510.3...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

No lawyer in the land would take that case, don't you know he's LORD FUCKING
RYVEN!?!?!?!?

Fuzzy :-D


Robert Davis

unread,
Aug 31, 2005, 6:37:45 AM8/31/05
to
dsa...@yahoo.co.uk (Terrible Trotsky) wrote in news:43130e1f.97056140
@news.critter.net:

> Just download bitlord, click on a torrent link, uncheck the boxes for
> the stuff you don't want, and then sit back and wait for it to
> download.

And wait, and wait, and wait, . . .

Fzoul Chembryl :-O

unread,
Aug 31, 2005, 7:21:05 AM8/31/05
to
Robert Davis <arky...@cox-internet.com> bowed down before Ramesses in

the palace of alt.fan.furry and said:

yeah true, I had to leave it on overnight. :(

cal...@yahoo.com

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 8:20:36 AM9/14/05
to
"This is the sort of crap that got Burned Fur hated so much. Scattergun

accusations against a whole group whether they have the power to do
anything about a problem or not."

Eh, excuse me? I was a member and we didn't make "scattergun
accusations" against any group. What we said was that people should
keep their sex lives to themselves and not foist it on TV cameras.

Beyond which, I've been gone from this site for HOW many years, and you
people are STILL bitching about nonexistent boogeymen? Hell, there was
a time nothing went wrong in fandom except that it was blamed on a
"Burned Fur plot". Attempted destruction of furrycons, whole "phantom
groups" that we supposedly created as front operations (that way no one
had to listen to THEM, either), and so on. We might as well have been
Furry Fandom's "Weathermen". Ah, heady days...if I had just tenth the
"powah" attributed to me as a Burned Fur by our opposition, I'd be
President of the United States by now. -:D

*looks around* Yep, same cool people, same occasionally interesting
topic, gonna need me to catch up a bit.


Scott Malcomson
Furry Artist, Battletech Writer, and Former Candidate for Governor of
Arizona (thankyewverramush)

jarro...@gmail.com

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 9:28:56 AM9/14/05
to
Sorry , Scott.

Burned Fur isn't allowed to take credit for being Furry's Bad Guy To
Target All Hatred Towards To Bring Us Together anymore. Once Furry
destroyed you, they had to find a new bad guy. Enter Sibe.

Sibe, congratulations on being elected Furry's Bad Guy To Target All
Hatred Towards To Bring Us Together.

Ironic that we're mostly liberals inside Furry.. we've borrowed from a
tried and true conservative technique.

jarro...@gmail.com

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 9:33:08 AM9/14/05
to
Truthfully, Swipe, this reads the same as any of the KD stuff I've seen
for the longest time.

If it's Sibe (it's so fun to blame him for absolutely everything, and
so easy, too! ) then he's gone through a lot of trouble to paint a very
dubious and hard to read message that might not be received by
everyone. Plus, this KD is against piracy. Sibe is not. So would
Sibe fake a message condemning himself AND others instead of just
himself? Doubtful. No, I'd wager this is legit. It's one of those
loonies that got pushed to this level by the foaming at the mouth Sibe
hatred and decided that THEY were the ones to "do something." This is
KD Mo. It reads like KD. It argues like KD. It quacks like a duck..
err...

If it's not a KD, it's the best fake you'll ever see.

Calbeck

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 10:31:07 AM9/14/05
to
*snrk* Nobody "destroyed" Burned Fur. We just got sick of being
shouted down every time we commented on negative public sexual behavior
and having people defend exactly that behavior as though they were
clinging to life preservers in the Mid-Atlantic.

Example: Burned Fur and FAASA came out against bestiality. Result: the
opposition DEFENDS bestiality, to the extent to coming up with a
crackpot essay that attempts in all seriousness to argue that sexually
abusing one's pet can be "moral". What made it even goofier was that
these same people otherwise spent their time arguing with us that WE
had no right to determine what was and wasn't "moral" to begin with!
-:D

Not that we made many arguments on basis of "morality", though. We
just said that if you declare that you have sex with your dog, you
should get some professional help. "Bestiality Pride" was the last
thing we expected to run into.

jarro...@gmail.com

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 10:59:00 AM9/14/05
to
Calbeck:

BF lost because Furry decided to turn you into a common enemy. If you
came back now, when Sibe is the common enemy, you'd either A) not be
shouted down as energetically as you were then or B) become the common
enemy, and Sibe would not be.

BF lost because it got demonized into oblivion by the collective forces
of furs focused on a common enemy. That's all I'm saying.

Calbeck

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 11:01:41 AM9/14/05
to

Calbeck

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 11:18:31 AM9/14/05
to
"BF lost because Furry decided to turn you into a common enemy."

Exactly what universe do you live in? I was there, bub. We weren't
fighting "Furry". We were, in specific, fighting about a dozen people
who held to the notion that ANY attempt at trying to present a good
image to the public amounted to being forced back into the closet at
gunpoint (complete with swastikas and jackboots). If we said that it
was a bad idea to wear full-torso bondage gear in the hotel lobby at
Knott's Berry Farm, particularly during main business hours, then
someone would pop up and DEFEND whoever had done it.

I got into an extended argument with one idiot who insisted he was
going to crash MY convention in bondage gear "just to make a
statement". I informed him of Arizona laws on the subject regarding
public decency, and of course he called me names. Things went downhill
from there, of course. Naturally, he never showed up at the
convention.

This wasn't "Furry" I was fighting. It was a pack of morons who had
more time to spend on the computer than I did. Burned Fur broke up
simply because, since the "lifestylers" made it literally impossible to
have a civilized discussion on the subject, we had little other
recourse but to actually go out and start breaking kneecaps. Not
wanting to resort to violence, we simply parted ways. None of us were
"ousted" from the fandom or anything else, and most of us have quietly
been producing more furry art or otherwise being productive while the
rest of the fandom has finally succeeded in doing exactly what we said
it would.

The fandom is now known, where it is known at all, as a haven for
sexually-deviant types who occupy the very bottom of the "Geek
Hierarchy" and are routinely mocked by webcomic artists looking for an
easy "lookit the freaks" joke.

All WE said was that if you're going to buy, sell or deal porn, you
should be discreet and not try to shove your sexual preferences into
the general public eye. Boy, sometimes I hate being right so often...
-;>

jarro...@gmail.com

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 11:30:26 AM9/14/05
to
And believe it or not, I agree with you :)

The problem is that you weren't fighting furry.. but Furry was fighting
you. You explain how these people popped up. As for not being there,
I was there. My best friend was on the BF roles until furs started
calling his place of employment and he asked to be removed. He works
at a pretty high ranking position in a pretty important place, and
having his boss walk in and tell him that he was getting told that my
friend was a nazi was .. troublesome.

So, yes. You were fighting furry. Not by your choice, but by the end
result.

Calbeck

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 11:39:37 AM9/14/05
to
"Furry was fighting you."

And you're high. Explain how a dozen people amounts to "Furry".

"As for not being there, I was there"

Never heard of you. And if you were, you'd know better than to engage
in agitprop. With your claims of "Furry vs. BF" you sound like the
Iraqi Information Ministry saying Burned Furs are committing suicide at
the gates. -:)

"My best friend was on the BF roles until furs started calling his

place of employment and he asked to be removed..having his boss walk in


and tell him that he was getting told that my friend was a nazi was ..
troublesome. "

Assuming this is correct, do you believe it's right to get someone
fired on false allegations?

"So, yes. You were fighting furry. Not by your choice, but by the
end result."

Nothing you've said suggests Burned Fur was fighting the fandom itself.
Instead, you've alleged that opponents of Burned Fur called the place
of employment of at least one Burned Fur with a manufactured story
designed to get that person fired.

Rather ironic, if true: the people who screamed loud and long about
Burned Furs engaging in "McCarthyism" apparently practiced Ol' Joe's
tactics themselves. How interesting.

In other news, exactly what did Burned Fur stand for that would lead
you, assuming you're a reasonable person, to conclude that anyone in it
was a Nazi?


Scott Malcomson

jarro...@gmail.com

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 11:48:58 AM9/14/05
to
I don't think it stood for anything that would conclude anyone in it
was a nazi.

I'm not high, though, I was there. I joined under a false name, and
my friend joined under his actual name. Actually, he was sent
something by Squee that basically amounted to the manifesto and asked
if he agreed to it. He agreed to it , and then continued to write his
fanfic.

As for fighting the fandom, I couldn't go around conventions for years
without hearing from, oh, I'd say 7 out of every 10 people that
"*whisper* Burned Fur was here." "Oh god.. what will they do.." "Oh
no, mebbe we can get them kicked out." "Fight fire with fire." "I heard
Squee tried to kill people and was kicked out of AC" and on and on and
on.

I'd express "You know, I can see how they have a point on some things."
and yes, then it'd turn into McCarthyism. "Oh, so you're one of them?
Well, I don't hate zoophiles, does that mean you want to kill me?"
Mebbe you didn't see it because you were one of them and just didn't
associate with the "lifestylers" or whatever.. but it was very odd.. I
remember a few years back at MFF the Burned Furs doing a wine and
cheese party and seeing the signs all over with Nazi propaganda drawn
all over them. Mind you, not trying to invoke Godwin's law here, I
doubt you guys put that kind of stuff on them. On attending the party,
I had a very enjoyable time, and had some wonderful conversations.

So on the ground, it very much felt like Furry vs Burned Fur. I'd
wager every single con-chair to the major conventions were approached
by way more than a dozen people asking that Burned Furs be banned from
conventions.

With regards to my friend, he has a very high security clearance. A
call like that caused a great deal of trouble all over his office. At
that point he removed himself from anything that listed his name
directly with Burned Fur and most things Furry. He continued to write
under a pseudonym for awhile, and then re-entered with his real name
recently.

BR

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 1:14:53 PM9/14/05
to
On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 08:18:31 -0700, Calbeck wrote:

> The fandom is now known, where it is known at all, as a haven for
> sexually-deviant types who occupy the very bottom of the "Geek
> Hierarchy" and are routinely mocked by webcomic artists looking for an
> easy "lookit the freaks" joke.

And if memory serves? The above statement was a bone of contention,
basically being a "no, it's not", "yes, it is". It was never resolved.

BH use to bring it up a lot.

Samantha, the Dancing Squirrel

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 1:36:13 PM9/14/05
to
What if Sibe and Kimmaugh bred and had children?

In article <1126704788.7...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,

Timmy Ramone

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 2:10:43 PM9/14/05
to
Calbeck wrote:
>
> *snrk* Nobody "destroyed" Burned Fur. We just got sick of being
> shouted down every time we commented on negative public sexual
> behavior and having people defend exactly that behavior as though
> they were clinging to life preservers in the Mid-Atlantic.

I don't suppose the fact that the BF "leadership" were at each
other's throats had anything to do with it (specifically, Peter
"Hangdog" Schorn's threats to kill Eric Blumrich -- posted to
the old Yerf message board). And the fact that some of the
BF-ers were sexual deviants, themselves, didn't help their
"rep" much (I know of at least two women who were stalked by a
certain member of that illustrious group).

Of course, everyone knew the group was destined to implode.
But not even I could have imagined it would do so in such
a spectacularly embarassing way.

--

Visit the "Usual Suspects" weblog:
http://www.browncross.com/usualsuspects/

"Bowl a strike, not a spare -- revolution everywhere!" -RABL motto

Sibe Husky

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 2:18:08 PM9/14/05
to
I thought the BF thing was just one of those IDIFTL things.

Calbeck

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 2:21:26 PM9/14/05
to
"I don't suppose the fact that the BF "leadership" were at each other's
throats had anything to do with it"

You're right, it didn't. Neither Peter nor Eric gave anyone "marching
orders". There was no "command structure", that's something that our
opponents applied TO us. Peter was just the third guy in the group, a
position which conferred absolutely no perks or bennies. Neither did
being Eric: I happily argued with him on plenty of occasions myself. I
thought his rhetoric was overwrought for the purpose, and he really
didn't give a crap one way of the other. BF was just a way for him to
vent.


"And the fact that some of the BF-ers were sexual deviants, themselves"

You obviously haven't read our Manifesto: we don't CARE what your
particular kink is, just don't shove it in the camera lens and use a
little common sense where and how you enjoy it. I'm a sexual deviant
myself, but you don't see me giving interviews about it to British
shock magazines. That's the diff, bubby.


"(I know of at least two women who were stalked by a certain member of
that illustrious group)."

S'news to me. Why din'cha file charges?

Sibe Husky

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 2:24:11 PM9/14/05
to
British shock magazines are funny tho.

Why try to fake the funk on a nasty dunk?

Calbeck

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 2:32:48 PM9/14/05
to
"As for fighting the fandom, I couldn't go around conventions for years
without hearing from, oh, I'd say 7 out of every 10 people that
"*whisper* Burned Fur was here." "Oh god.. what will they do.." "Oh
no, mebbe we can get them kicked out." "Fight fire with fire." "I heard
Squee tried to kill people and was kicked out of AC" and on and on and
on."

Oh, I don't doubt it...that's called the Rumor Mill, and our opposition
was very good at screaming until they were the only ones left being
heard. Then they were free to accuse us of any number of bits of
eviltry without once having to actually produce, say, an actual plot.
Whisper campaigns are standard amongst hate groups like our opposition
--- and boy, did they HATE us.


"I'd express "You know, I can see how they have a point on some
things." and yes, then it'd turn into McCarthyism. "Oh, so you're one
of them? Well, I don't hate zoophiles, does that mean you want to kill
me?"

Yup. That's why the group ultimately broke up: impossible to be heard
thanks to the rumormongering and character assassination carried out
against our membership. We, you see, were a threat. We were calling
for decorum, and that would force a lot of people who are used to
throwing jawbreakers at cathedrals for fun to lighten up a bit.


"I remember a few years back at MFF the Burned Furs doing a wine and
cheese party and seeing the signs all over with Nazi propaganda drawn
all over them."

Never made it out to MFF myself, so I missed that one, but I wouldn't
put it above certain folks.


"So on the ground, it very much felt like Furry vs Burned Fur. I'd
wager every single con-chair to the major conventions were approached
by way more than a dozen people asking that Burned Furs be banned from
conventions. "

Well, I ran ZonieCon for several years, and never had anyone approach
me with such a request, so go fig. I DO recall someone claiming on AFF
that ZonieCon was a "Burned Fur" con simply because I was running it,
and on that basis he tried to boycott it. This concept greatly amused
most of our membership.


"With regards to my friend, he has a very high security clearance. A
call like that caused a great deal of trouble all over his office. At
that point he removed himself from anything that listed his name
directly with Burned Fur and most things Furry."

Well, can't blame him then. I prolly know who you're talking about,
too, but it's not clicking. Ah well.

Calbeck

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 2:33:40 PM9/14/05
to
"And if memory serves? The above statement was a bone of contention,
basically being a "no, it's not", "yes, it is". It was never resolved."

Try asking someone outside the fandom who's heard of us. It's
resolved, and not in our favor.

Swipecat

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 2:58:48 PM9/14/05
to
jarro...@gmail.com wrote:
> ...

>If it's Sibe (it's so fun to blame him for absolutely everything, and
>so easy, too! ) then he's gone through a lot of trouble to paint a very
>dubious and hard to read message that might not be received by
>everyone. Plus, this KD is against piracy. Sibe is not. So would
>Sibe fake a message condemning himself AND others instead of just
>himself? ...

After re-reading it, I have to say that it looks even less credible to
me now - like I said, I could've written in myself if I'd wanted to
damage the KDs. Then there's the hacking of the Spanish server to hide
the source, and the appearance of the pro-Sibe "KadaitchaDncr" around
about the same time, and the denial by Kookaburra who didn't seem to
know who it was either. And if it's pretending to be from a KD, then of
course it would give the superficial appearance of attacking Sibe.

> ... No, I'd wager this is legit. It's one of those


>loonies that got pushed to this level by the foaming at the mouth Sibe

>hatred and decided that THEY were the ones to "do something." ...

I don't deny the possibility. Sibe does seem to make some people like
that. I honestly have never Sibe posting in a group when he is NOT
actively trying to create even more enemies.

--
Farry/Swipecat

Swipecat

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 3:04:14 PM9/14/05
to
jarro...@gmail.com wrote:

>I don't think it stood for anything that would conclude anyone in it
>was a nazi.
>
>I'm not high, though, I was there. I joined under a false name, and
>my friend joined under his actual name. Actually, he was sent
>something by Squee that basically amounted to the manifesto and asked
>if he agreed to it. He agreed to it , and then continued to write his

>fanfic. ...

Jarrod, despite my anti-BF comment, I actually had sympathy for BF's
aims. However, I think that a certain person is now giving you an
education as to why I and others rapidly came to dislike them. If you
tried to point out that some things that they said were in error or that
there were problems with their tactics, then they would abuse you and
often the whole group as well. They would continuously harangue the
anthropomorphic-interest groups for things that most members had no
control over to the point that large numbers of people were driven away,
while the lifestyle-interest groups were left in peace. What finally
destroyed BF was internal argument - and I for one was not sorry at all.

--
Farry/Swipecat

jarro...@gmail.com

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 3:05:03 PM9/14/05
to
Why does it have to be hacking when it's an open NNTP server that
doesn't even check for permissions? Why wouldn't Sibe just do what he
usually does and use a proxy instead of setting up an entire mail
client?

You know, it's funny. A few years back, and Linux pros like myself
would share free NNTP servers that had all the groups on them. Then
fur.* began putting groups up on their own NNTP servers. Now, if you
access a free NNTP server, you're "Hacking it"

Gimme a break. Typing in an address to the NNTP Server box of outlook
express is NOT hacking it. You're giving a bad name to hackers.

Sibe Husky

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 3:05:45 PM9/14/05
to
HOW DARE THEY HARANGUE!

I dont feel sorry at all!!!

jarro...@gmail.com

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 3:07:00 PM9/14/05
to
Name names, Swipe.

I'm really tired of the behind people's back whispering. If you're not
going to directly accuse him of it, then I don't want to hear about it.

Sibe Husky

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 3:13:31 PM9/14/05
to
YEAH HE DOSENT WANNA HEAR ABOUT IT!

HOW YOU LIKE THEM APPLES BITCH?!

Swipecat

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 3:26:22 PM9/14/05
to
jarro...@gmail.com wrote:

>Gimme a break. Typing in an address to the NNTP Server box of outlook
>express is NOT hacking it. You're giving a bad name to hackers.

Actually, somebody pointed out that the Spanish server was used as a
proxy to post through Google. And I think it was most likely a
Sibe-supporter rather than Sibe himself.

--
Farry/Swipecat

Swipecat

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 3:30:53 PM9/14/05
to
jarro...@gmail.com wrote:

Just use Google groups to find references to Burned Fur in this group in
the year or so after it was created if you're asking me to support my
general point. As to who was giving you the "education", I meant
Calbeck, as if that wasn't blatantly obvious.

--
Farry/Swipecat

jarro...@gmail.com

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 3:34:50 PM9/14/05
to
It's funny. Right above your comment about burned fur people sending
out hate grams, you tell us that you think it was a pro-sibe person
posing as a KD.

And BF people were claiming that people were "ghosting" as them on
usenet.

Amazing, isn't it, the irony of those two posts of yours just now.

Swipecat

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 3:41:49 PM9/14/05
to
jarro...@gmail.com wrote:

>And BF people were claiming that people were "ghosting" as them on
>usenet.

I don't recall that. Schorn et al. were more than happy to harangue and
denigrate everyone in sight and let you know who they were. Try that
Google search. Trying to claim otherwise is a total revision of history.

--
Farry/Swipecat

Calbeck

unread,
Sep 14, 2005, 5:50:57 PM9/14/05