The death of Furry
Kioh
it, you guys have nearly ruined it.
What's so sad is that you, the pathetic hypocrites who ruined Furry by
turning it into a playground for your misguided sexual pathologies, are the
ones bemoaning the lack of interest in anthropomorphism and the growing
agitation for some sort of reform. You shouldn't whine about getting along,
because you're the ones who introduced the problem in the first place.
Unhappy that Furry has such a bad reputation as a bunch of spooge-happy
laminated-print dorks who live with their moms and don't shower? You
shouldn't be, because you brought that reputation to the fandom. Before the
muck came along, furry fandom was a group of thoughtful people who tried to
create interesting and amusing portrayals of anthropomorphic characters.
Now it's just a bunch of Internet perverts who wrap their sickness in the
Furry banner.
The artists don't help either. The artists who've sold out, and they know
who they are, have helped turn Furry into the monstrosity that it is today.
Instead of being the respectable core of Furry that they once were, they're
the leading edge of perversion and pandering to sickness and depravity.
Nobody wants to join Furry fandom or express their enjoyment of cartoons out
loud, because if they do, they don't have many positive references to give.
Don't get me wrong. We still have decent artists who try to do creative
things with anthropomorphics along with upholding moral and artistic
standards. To SqueeRat, Blumrich, kobus, Rackety, Coyote Nate, and all the
people, Burned or no, who continue to innovate and create beyond fan art and
spooge, best of luck to you. You're the leaders of the resistance.
Unfortunately, a handful of respectable Furry artists and a few angry fans
aren't going to save Furry. What's needed is a revolt against those who've
ruined the fandom. I won't name names here because their possessors will
whine, but don't buy the products of or associate with those who demean
Furry. If you're a member of a Furry discussion areas and you're seriously
unhappy with what's going on, speak up! Don't assume that everything will
work itself out in the end. It won't.
I'd like to close by noting that a lot of people seem to think that if
everybody had their own standards for themselves and ignored what others
did, everything would be fine. If that happened, Furry would die. Those
with the integrity and the standards necessary to make Furry respectable
again would leave the fandom, as many already have, and what you'd be left
with wouldn't be worth anything at all. If, on the other hand, everybody
pitched in to raise the bar of what's acceptable as Furry and what's not,
we'd have something that we could all take real Furry pride in.
Dan Weaver -- Kioh
Donald E. Sanders
> You don't need a weatherman to see which way the fandom's going. Let's face
> it, you guys have nearly ruined it.
First off, who is 'You Guys"?
>
> What's so sad is that you, the pathetic hypocrites who ruined Furry by
> turning it into a playground for your misguided sexual pathologies, are the
> ones bemoaning the lack of interest in anthropomorphism and the growing
> agitation for some sort of reform. You shouldn't whine about getting along,
> because you're the ones who introduced the problem in the first place.
>
> Unhappy that Furry has such a bad reputation as a bunch of spooge-happy
> laminated-print dorks who live with their moms and don't shower? You
> shouldn't be, because you brought that reputation to the fandom. Before the
> muck came along, furry fandom was a group of thoughtful people who tried to
> create interesting and amusing portrayals of anthropomorphic characters.
> Now it's just a bunch of Internet perverts who wrap their sickness in the
> Furry banner.
Yep, it was better when it was outta sight, outta mind. However, that is
what you get when you add world connectivity to a fandom. I would say
live with it, but telling by the tone of this entire post, I guess you
can't Oh yea, I figure since you were on a roll, why stop at the misguided
sexual perverts that are in the fandom, why not go after a wide range of
folks who don't follow the idea of a perfect fandom (Which I don't know
cause to me, the whole world is still imperfect.)
>
> The artists don't help either. The artists who've sold out, and they know
> who they are, have helped turn Furry into the monstrosity that it is today.
> Instead of being the respectable core of Furry that they once were, they're
> the leading edge of perversion and pandering to sickness and depravity.
> Nobody wants to join Furry fandom or express their enjoyment of cartoons out
> loud, because if they do, they don't have many positive references to give.
Lets see, so far all I got is that the fandom is being destroyed by erotic
art, the artists are to blame, therefore the artists must go. This is what
I have read so far, pray that I am wrong. I have not heard anything about
writers, con organizers, craft persons, ect ect in this one post, it is just
the artists. Like I mentioned in another post, Those so called sold-out artists
do more than just furry erotica as well. One blind stab I think this is, nothing
more.
>
> Don't get me wrong. We still have decent artists who try to do creative
> things with anthropomorphics along with upholding moral and artistic
> standards. To SqueeRat, Blumrich, kobus, Rackety, Coyote Nate, and all the
> people, Burned or no, who continue to innovate and create beyond fan art and
> spooge, best of luck to you. You're the leaders of the resistance.
No comment on this part.
>
> Unfortunately, a handful of respectable Furry artists and a few angry fans
> aren't going to save Furry. What's needed is a revolt against those who've
> ruined the fandom. I won't name names here because their possessors will
> whine, but don't buy the products of or associate with those who demean
> Furry. If you're a member of a Furry discussion areas and you're seriously
> unhappy with what's going on, speak up! Don't assume that everything will
> work itself out in the end. It won't.
The problem with casting such a large net is that you get Dolphins as well
as Tuna. A fine example is yet another post involving a very popular artist
who had her finest works set back to her. I won't even go into details
about this due to my respect for this artist, she had suffered enough. The
problems with revolts is that those who do not agree are lined up and shot.
I for one don't want to be a target, nobody does!
>
> I'd like to close by noting that a lot of people seem to think that if
> everybody had their own standards for themselves and ignored what others
> did, everything would be fine. If that happened, Furry would die. Those
> with the integrity and the standards necessary to make Furry respectable
> again would leave the fandom, as many already have, and what you'd be left
> with wouldn't be worth anything at all. If, on the other hand, everybody
> pitched in to raise the bar of what's acceptable as Furry and what's not,
> we'd have something that we could all take real Furry pride in.
>
The words were rough at the start of this, but started to make some sense
in and near the end. Now for my final notes.
1) Agreed, there are problems, to say they are being blown out of proportion
would label me as a apologist, as coined by somebody else in this flamewar.
Nobody loves to battle unless they either feel so right about what they
believe in that they would die for it. I could either turn my back and say
battle away folks, or I can try and see what I could do to set things back
on it's right path.
2) There has been alot of points pro and con brought up in this nasty little
exchange of words. Each side thinks theirs are valid while saying the other
side is just blowing smoke. Either way, it is making life more rough for
those who want to enjoy the fandom as a fandom and not as their mark on life.
As it goes, I've spent way too much time on this subject to enjoy the fandom
so in a way, the burned furs are right, the fandom is falling apart, but not
from the over abundance of erotic art, but from the infighting!
3) There will be victims every day from both sides of this argument! Nobody
likes being a victim, it should also be nobody likes making victims.
I would come up with more, but considering the size of this post now, what
would be the point of it. Each day, I ask myself should I answer a post and
each time I think, should I continue the path I took, not to speak up for those
who are so=called destroying the fandom, but for those caught in the middle.
I also think about just letting it dropped. To late haunt me when somebody
asked what did you do for the fandom. All I would say is, "I kept quiet while
lots if innocent folks got burned for no reason just because of certain things
they believe in. Does this sound familiar in history? I don't really know
anymore.
I said my piece in this and will shut now while folks argue over what used
to be a good pastime gone ugly with hate.
--
Don Sanders
Dsan Tsan on #furry of Yiffnet
RoadKill Fur (Sun baked sorta but not burned!)
Artist at Roll Yer Own Graphics
http://www.dreamscape.com/dsand101/dsan.htm
(my furry page) Email dsan...@future.dreamscape.com
Chris Johnson
<dwea...@ic3.ithaca.edu> wrote:
> I'd like to close by noting that a lot of people seem to think that if
> everybody had their own standards for themselves and ignored what others
> did, everything would be fine. If that happened, Furry would die.
Sorry, it's already dead as far as I'm concerned. My personal muse may
continue to include whatever sort of characters I like, but I see no
reason to seek validation from 'furry'. One camp would judge me only on if
I have enough spooge, another would judge me only on if I was willing to
_rebel_ against spooge, meanwhile yelling at me for being a pervert
because I'm not willing to shun anybody!
I had a fascination with anthropomorphic fantasy/sf characters, and I
had many feline qualities and an identification with cats, for years
before I heard of anything called 'furry fandom'.
I'll still have these things for years after abandoning all hope for
this thing that, when it was alive, if it was _ever_ alive, was called
'furry fandom'.
This is to Kioh here- You've got some nerve expecting me, or anyone, to
be the 'respectable core' of anything, and shun, boycott and witchhunt
other people to prove it. I've never had a problem with the perverts, nor
have I been harmed by any of their shenanigans. (How could I, when I don't
go to cons or define myself by how I belong to a fandom?)
I do have a problem with the constant witchhunts, and Kioh, it never
changes. I saw different people saying the same thing years ago, and
accomplishing nothing. I saw people make themselves so unpleasant that a
group of people _split_ _off_ and _LEFT!_ to get away from the rotten bad
attitude- I of course refer to the birth of alt.lifestyle.furry- and even
_this_ was not enough, now I, one of the people who found interesting
stuff to talk about there some of the time, am expected to formally
repudiate any sympathies for 'em, and become a 'respectable core' to a
'fandom' that has never done me a bit of good or cared about me a
hairsbreadth, and which has made itself known to me primarily by
attempting to enforce codes of behavior and telling me who I can be
friends with and whom I must shun?
Jesus!
I admit on usenet I have paparazzi instincts and gravitate towards the
scene of fights and flamewars, but this is ridiculous! Furry flamewars are
more virulent, more _vicious_ and evil, than even _computer_ _advocacy_
for crying out loud. That's _pathetic_. And it never ends. I don't know
_why_ furry fandom attracts the absolute worst, most evil, witch-hunting,
overgeneralizing, guilt ridden hypersensitive attack dogs of people since
the McCarthy era and the House of Un-American Activities, but it _always_
_has_.
Your post was an obscenity, and I am very saddened that you don't even
seem to realize it. You can have your stinking fandom, and much good may
it do you- for you it may have been a moving speech, but for me it's just
one more reason why I would want to distance myself from any implications
that anything I do, no matter how anthro-ish, is 'furry'.
I'd rather not even be bothered to profess any stand or position, but I
prefer _bestialists_ to your blacklisting, witch-hunting, evil ways. I
won't do a thing to fight you, as I consider your goals contemptible and
unlikely to succeed, but I think you need a wake-up call. You are _no_
respectable moral core. I'm rarely tempted to the generic furry
'unsubscribe in fit of pique' tantrum, but I've never been more tempted.
How dare you?
*takes a break, reads Dsan's reply, probably the 35,000,000th Dsan
reasonable response I've seen, pity nobody seems to be listening to him
but me, and I always Usenet Nod and don't back him up... sigh*
...so. Ought I to draw the conclusion that I must not only give up on
furry fandom, not only leave and hang with other people elsewhere, but
also completely ignore rabblerousers who are trying to get my friends
shunned, hated and condemned at best, and at worst arrested, physically
attacked or killed? It's all very well when it's abstract, but I've known
people who drew spooge, or people who had sex at cons (hell, _I_ had sex
at a con, though it was in a room, me being me), and even zoos. Rant all
you want, as long as you are useless and not accomplishing anything. F***
with my personal friends and you will have a problem- the extent of which
depends (as always) on how close to home it strikes. Here's hoping, very
earnestly, that you accomplish none of your rabble-rousing, witchhunting,
blacklisting goals.
I saw a lifestyler (aka 'one of us' if you must see me as a
group-belonger) try to call for a blacklist against hateful people like
you. He was pretty restrained about it. 'We' managed to cool him off and
determined that 'we' lifestylers have no wish to behave in that manner.
You are both twice as hateful about it, and far more unlikely to recant or
hedge. To me, that makes you worse than the lifestyler who wanted a list
of hateful people like you.
Again- 'you' in this post, unlike Kioh's, refers to a specific person,
which is Kioh. It is quite safe to say that I am angry at Kioh for his
post ;P Anybody else, whatever their previous statements, need only wear
that 'you' if they are sure it fits them. I'm real sick of generalizing-
if people want my contempt and anger, they know how to get it. If they
only want to hold their own opinions, they are welcome to them.
<cartman>witchhunters piss me off!</cartman>
*snarl* God. Why did I ever come here? Why do I even bother trying to
read this horrible group? I guess to some extent it's simply because I am
trying, subconsciously, to keep tabs on organized uprisings against people
I know, personal friends, or myself. That's _sad_, that A.F.F. means only
that to me. I have written _novels_ with anthro characters, I have drawn
pictures of anthro characters, and all 'fandom' means to me is something
to watch out for, lest it beat up or persecute me or my friends. That's
_sad_. You'd think it'd at least seem like a wasteland, rather than a
minefield.
I should get my tail out of here for awhile. I keep mistakenly trying
to care about what goes down here, and it's bad to care about Furry
Fandom, because it's a freakin' nightmare full of hate... never seen
anything quite like it, not even PC vs. Mac flamewars. I need to have more
faith that these damned rabblerousers are useless and won't accomplish
anything. They never have, except to keep the same underlying hate level
alive in 'fandom' circles. Just... kindly don't make me take sides.
Because I _will_ side with the 'skunkfuckers', just to side against the
witchhunters. And frankly I'd rather not even bother to side with anyone:
I certainly won't do anything to defend, support,
show-activism-in-favor-of 'skunkfuckers and perverts' unless I'm forced to
take a side and be involved, but I do have limits at what I'm willing to
sit by and watch. With luck it will remain futile, hateful words, no more
;P
Jinx_tigr, real tired of being second up against the wall when the
revolution comes
(aka Chris Johnson)
Simion Lonewolf
twit! You sound a lot like drp...@hotmail.com! (Hey, drphlog, next
time give a username! ;-) ) Remember his Burning (Fru) Ship post?
<Bends over and speaks with his asshole ala Ace Ventura> ^_^
C'mon guys -- this type of negativity is NOT what we need right now. We
need real solutions, here. (And I'm not talking about Linux, either.)
Instead of saying this fandom is through, how 'bout we do something
about it? (Oh God help me, I sound like a BF! ^_^)
Simion Lonewolf - A Nonaligned Fur
www.isrv.com/~lonewolf
s-i-m-i-o-n-@-a-l-t-a-v-i-s-t-a-.-n-e-t
--------------------
Kioh wrote in message <785tar$roe$1...@crucigera.fysh.org>...
You don't need a weatherman to see which way the fandom's going. Let's
face
it, you guys have nearly ruined it.
What's so sad is that you, the pathetic hypocrites who ruined Furry by
turning it into a playground for your misguided sexual pathologies, are
the
ones bemoaning the lack of interest in anthropomorphism and the growing
agitation for some sort of reform. You shouldn't whine about getting
along,
because you're the ones who introduced the problem in the first place.
Unhappy that Furry has such a bad reputation as a bunch of spooge-happy
laminated-print dorks who live with their moms and don't shower? You
shouldn't be, because you brought that reputation to the fandom. Before
the
muck came along, furry fandom was a group of thoughtful people who tried
to
create interesting and amusing portrayals of anthropomorphic characters.
Now it's just a bunch of Internet perverts who wrap their sickness in
the
Furry banner.
The artists don't help either. The artists who've sold out, and they
know
who they are, have helped turn Furry into the monstrosity that it is
today.
Instead of being the respectable core of Furry that they once were,
they're
the leading edge of perversion and pandering to sickness and depravity.
Nobody wants to join Furry fandom or express their enjoyment of cartoons
out
loud, because if they do, they don't have many positive references to
give.
Don't get me wrong. We still have decent artists who try to do creative
things with anthropomorphics along with upholding moral and artistic
standards. To SqueeRat, Blumrich, kobus, Rackety, Coyote Nate, and all
the
people, Burned or no, who continue to innovate and create beyond fan art
and
spooge, best of luck to you. You're the leaders of the resistance.
Unfortunately, a handful of respectable Furry artists and a few angry
fans
aren't going to save Furry. What's needed is a revolt against those
who've
ruined the fandom. I won't name names here because their possessors
will
whine, but don't buy the products of or associate with those who demean
Furry. If you're a member of a Furry discussion areas and you're
seriously
unhappy with what's going on, speak up! Don't assume that everything
will
work itself out in the end. It won't.
I'd like to close by noting that a lot of people seem to think that if
everybody had their own standards for themselves and ignored what others
did, everything would be fine. If that happened, Furry would die.
Those
with the integrity and the standards necessary to make Furry respectable
again would leave the fandom, as many already have, and what you'd be
left
with wouldn't be worth anything at all. If, on the other hand,
everybody
pitched in to raise the bar of what's acceptable as Furry and what's
not,
we'd have something that we could all take real Furry pride in.
Dan Weaver -- Kioh
ilr
> things with anthropomorphics along with upholding moral and artistic
> standards. To SqueeRat, Blumrich, kobus, Rackety, Coyote Nate, and all the
> people, Burned or no, who continue to innovate and create beyond fan art and
> spooge, best of luck to you.
[Check out the All-Knowing one. He'll tell ya what's creative and what ain't]
Couple of people with animal heads in "hip" clothes standing around = Creative!
Calculating and drawing every piece of a morphs anatomy = Uncreative!
> You're the leaders of the resistance.
And they're such heroes to us all! They fight so valiantly against
the absolute evils of a fandom that really should only luv children's cartoon
characters. And they do so without a shred of rapacity, yea, they
only have YOUR best interest in mind. So follow them with immense
blind faith to the Golden Land! [Stop Exaggerating everything dickweed]
> Unfortunately, a handful of respectable Furry artists and a few angry fans
> aren't going to save Furry. What's needed is a revolt against those who've
> ruined the fandom. I won't name names here because their possessors will
> whine, but don't buy the products of or associate with those who demean
> Furry. If you're a member of a Furry discussion areas and you're seriously
> unhappy with what's going on, speak up! Don't assume that everything will
> work itself out in the end. It won't.
>
And while your at it, go convince every truck driver in America
not to buy anything from Larry Flynt, make the world stop watching
Baywatch, and outlaw sex.
> I'd like to close by noting that a lot of people seem to think that if
> everybody had their own standards for themselves and ignored what others
> did, everything would be fine. If that happened, Furry would die.
[Slow down turbo, you just said furry is already dead]
> Those
> with the integrity and the standards necessary to make Furry respectable
> again would leave the fandom, as many already have, and what you'd be left
> with wouldn't be worth anything at all.
> If, on the other hand, everybody
> pitched in to raise the bar of what's acceptable as Furry and what's not,
> we'd have something that we could all take real Furry pride in.
And if we all started burning books again and goose-stepping, furry
could have a nationalistic pride :) Hooray for Censorship! Hiles and Smiles :)
--- i l r
Brian O'connell
gratuitous indicator of alledged sarcasm...
ilr wrote in message <01be4591$0e02edc0$4323...@rofintug.rof.net>...
Bev Clark/Steve Gallacci
First, this newsgroup is a tiny, self-selected population that may not
refelct the larger community, and certainly doesn't speak with any
authority for it.
Secondly, the debate has swung into an extreamly polarized absolutist
rut, which doesn't reflect the "real world" aspects of the issues, only
the absolute/idealized ends. (and some often goofy over- or
mis-interpetations of even what the issues are)
Third, the fandom in question is such a micro-genre that its "grand
importance" to world culture and art might be jsut a bit over-stated.
Finally, it is jsut a fandom, ferchrissakes. Get a life.
Steve - Ghod-Emperor of the whole damned thing, without his coffee yet -
Gallacci
GothTiger
Bev Clark/Steve Gallacci wrote:
> A little perspective here.
> First, this newsgroup is a tiny, self-selected population that may not
> refelct the larger community, and certainly doesn't speak with any
> authority for it.
> Secondly, the debate has swung into an extreamly polarized absolutist
> rut, which doesn't reflect the "real world" aspects of the issues, only
> the absolute/idealized ends. (and some often goofy over- or
> mis-interpetations of even what the issues are)
> Third, the fandom in question is such a micro-genre that its "grand
> importance" to world culture and art might be jsut a bit over-stated.
> Finally, it is jsut a fandom, ferchrissakes. Get a life.
Damn, someone besides me finally figgered it out....
GothTiger (tig...@execpc.com)
Matthew Milam
Chris Johnson <chr...@airwindows.com> wrote in message
news:chrisj-2001...@arc2a23.bf.sover.net...
>In article <785tar$roe$1...@crucigera.fysh.org>, "Kioh"
><dwea...@ic3.ithaca.edu> wrote:
>> I'd like to close by noting that a lot of people seem to think that if
>> everybody had their own standards for themselves and ignored what others
>> did, everything would be fine. If that happened, Furry would die.
>
> Sorry, it's already dead as far as I'm concerned.
I don't believe it's dead, I just think that alot of you, do not work at it
hard enough to make "furry" alive. The few i've seen do it seem always on
the run from the same people who defend it.
> I admit on usenet I have paparazzi instincts and gravitate towards the
>scene of fights and flamewars, but this is ridiculous! Furry flamewars are
>more virulent, more _vicious_ and evil, than even _computer_ _advocacy_
>for crying out loud. That's _pathetic_. And it never ends. I don't know
>_why_ furry fandom attracts the absolute worst, most evil, witch-hunting,
>overgeneralizing, guilt ridden hypersensitive attack dogs of people since
>the McCarthy era and the House of Un-American Activities, but it _always_
>_has_.
There's something interesting, two months later as of last year, I would
have been taken off of Tapestries Muck for harassing the local furs. I
agrued that some dirty tricks had been played on me, and I was trying any
means necessary to find the truth. But, all that did was infurate an already
idiotic group of people who just happend to be "players" in this fandom, who
also knew people high enough to be able to get me out of their. As I type
this on January 21, 1999, I sitll don't REALLY know what happened.
All I know, and Wayd partly meant this before, was that I feel in love with
a woman. I never knew her, except through her irish-fox character on the
muck. But apparently in the midst of however beautiful it was, inner secrets
became clear to me in the next few weeks, in the following order. She
turned out to have two characters, had been invovled in three other
relationships, and apparently was in my mind, playing a game with me, and
that she never really...EVER.....loved me. I suppose all of the regular
players on there new that, but didn't care to, or waited to see me fall flat
on my face, because they didn't agree with my persona and the ruckus it was
creating. In theory, which...should have been quite nomral for such a place.
But as I stated,. in the first paragraph, it didn't help to figure out the
truth, because the minds of the "Gods" had been made up.
I amazingly after something simlar, but not invovling romance, on another
muck, managed to take this with the idea it would help me get to the bottom
of this, to alt.fan.furry. Which so began the most amazing, and painful
journey of my life. You may break out the volin and sarcastically make
remarks of your pleasure, or listen if you don't have anything against me
saying this.
It's now the said date above, and i've possibly will never get over it.
Presumably because it didn't need to happen, it didn't need to go out into
the far reaches of t-shirt land, nor become the regular fodder for the
usually smart/asshole/but-i'm-so-cool because I have the computer geek
persona furs. The way it started seemed rather evil.
Peter De Sliva was the first one I remember sending me a message to the
first posting I made on this subject, telling me I was crazy, and that
professional help was needed. I honestly, for the life of me, don't know why
that's needed. "It's only a game." said he the big UNIX adminstrator who
could so easliy as well as his many friends could put it. But then again,
Windows 98 is only an operating system. And Furry is nothing more than a
real life person with the social problems of a teenager, growing old
physically, but not mentally (personal exceptions not included). And even
dare I say, a computer is nothing more than hardware and coded software.
No, I can't say those things, because they are WRONG, and not the true
partoic defintion of what they mean. Windows 98 is a bad operating system,
Furry is a refuge from Real life, and a computer is the non-social outlet
you can bastardize people with. This in effect, like what happened with me
last year, is bullshit.
To sum it up before you start scracthing your head again. Your basically,
ever day, creating your own mess. Whether it's the people claiming not to be
causing the problem, or it's the people claiming to cause the problem, but
have a reason.
Had I know, that AFF was a warzone, and really didnt' see anything as being
remotely serious, I wouldn't have come here in the first place. Wouldn't
have been hunted down by a vixen, a holiday, a Doug, a Sliva, a Johnson, a
Farlo, a Nrasser, and basically the rest of the cast of AFF and ALF. Also
had I known that fighting these subjects in question wouldn't work, I
wouldn't have done that either.
No, it's not because i'm an idiot. But because I see what I want to see, and
what I want to see is some responsibility. The same thrown at me
consistently. But who cares, that word doesn't exist in your dictionaral
minds.
Sincerely,
Matthew Milam
"And neither does it, in mine"
matmi...@yahoo.com
Felyne32k
>What's so sad is that you, the pathetic hypocrites who ruined Furry by
>turning it into a playground for your misguided sexual pathologies, are the
>ones bemoaning the lack of interest in anthropomorphism and the growing
Well, lets see then... if "misguided sexual pathologies" are
demeaning to a group, then the USA, which is supposed to elect leaders that
represent itself, is one *huge* mass of sickos, just looking at their
leader's choice of, in my opinion, the second and third ugliest and
detestable women in the entire nation. <Linda Tripp being first> :-P I mean,
this is a man who can probably get any unwed woman he wants, right? *Now*
you're looking at bad taste.
>agitation for some sort of reform. You shouldn't whine about getting
along,
>because you're the ones who introduced the problem in the first place.
>
>Unhappy that Furry has such a bad reputation as a bunch of spooge-happy
>laminated-print dorks who live with their moms and don't shower? You
>shouldn't be, because you brought that reputation to the fandom. Before
the
>muck came along, furry fandom was a group of thoughtful people who tried to
>create interesting and amusing portrayals of anthropomorphic characters.
>Now it's just a bunch of Internet perverts who wrap their sickness in the
>Furry banner.
Well, sexuality *is* a major drive in the human mind. Citing my
comment above, I think if the President can actually act on his twisted
fantasy, what's wrong with the "spooge-happy laminated-print dorks"? They're
pretty harmless. And, last time I checked, the only criteria for "Furry" is
the anthromorphic character part. It didn't say anything about sexual
orientation or social position. Correct me if I'm wrong.
<Sarcasm> If you're going to exclude "dorks who live with their moms
and don't shower" and people who are sexually attracted to furries, what's
to stop you from excluding people who like skunks because we've been labeled
"skunk-f*ckers" before, so those attackers have no basis? Or people with an
income of below $X,000 a year because they don't contribute to artist's
funding? Or why don't we throw out all the MUCKers and Computer-Generated
Image people so we can't all be labeled computer geeks or
something?</Sarcasm>
I agree that sexuality is a bit overplayed in the fandom, but I can
live with that. The point is, if you start saying that *This* group or
*That* group isn't *True* fandom, you eventually wind up at Hitler and the
Gestapo, who went around killing people because (in effect) they were't
*true* Germans (No offense to any Germans out there). Especially when the
only real criteria is (in our case) love of anthromorphics, or (In the
German case) citizenship in Germany.
>The artists don't help either. The artists who've sold out, and they know
>who they are, have helped turn Furry into the monstrosity that it is today.
>Instead of being the respectable core of Furry that they once were, they're
>the leading edge of perversion and pandering to sickness and depravity.
>Nobody wants to join Furry fandom or express their enjoyment of cartoons
out
>loud, because if they do, they don't have many positive references to give.
An artist's purpose is, IMHO, to capture life, with all it's
defects, ironies, beauties, struggles, and triumphs, in their medium. And
sex is a large part of life. Without it, all there would be on this planet
would be bacteria and protists. And those would be pretty boring.
>Don't get me wrong. We still have decent artists who try to do creative
>things with anthropomorphics along with upholding moral and artistic
>standards. To SqueeRat, Blumrich, kobus, Rackety, Coyote Nate, and all the
>people, Burned or no, who continue to innovate and create beyond fan art
and
>spooge, best of luck to you. You're the leaders of the resistance.
And creative is defined as...??? One problem here is that
you define "moral and artistic standards" by your own narrow terms. Ancient
Greek and Roman art contains *huge* quantities of nude work, and other
"erotic" concepts, but it's not trash. It's still very good work. And not
because it's realistic, though it is. It's because the artists captured a
bit of the essence of /life/ within it. And sex is a part of life, like it
or not.
On more modern terms, is Omaha the Cat Dancer furry? I
should hope so; otherwise we have a HUGE misunderstanding on out hands. It's
been a long time since I've read any, but I can't remember and NON-furry
characters in there. At least by my standards. But...Oh, there's sex in it,
some people are turned on by it, so, logically, Kioh thinks it's stuff that
should be purged from the fandom. Ok... whatever you say... I'm not giving
it up...
>Unfortunately, a handful of respectable Furry artists and a few angry fans
>aren't going to save Furry. What's needed is a revolt against those who've
>ruined the fandom. I won't name names here because their possessors will
>whine, but don't buy the products of or associate with those who demean
>Furry. If you're a member of a Furry discussion areas and you're seriously
>unhappy with what's going on, speak up! Don't assume that everything will
>work itself out in the end. It won't.
Well, this is one thing I agree with. Activism is a noble
quality. And the Net is a postocracy. It goes on the number of posts
for/against a given topic. If you flame people you disagree with hairless
(or furless), they'll either flame you back, with the victor going to the
person of greater debating skill (or the most allies), or they'll slink off
and never show up again.
>I'd like to close by noting that a lot of people seem to think that if
>everybody had their own standards for themselves and ignored what others
>did, everything would be fine. If that happened, Furry would die. Those
>with the integrity and the standards necessary to make Furry respectable
>again would leave the fandom, as many already have, and what you'd be left
>with wouldn't be worth anything at all. If, on the other hand, everybody
>pitched in to raise the bar of what's acceptable as Furry and what's not,
>we'd have something that we could all take real Furry pride in.
Be proud in what you do. Even if others disapprove. Fight
the crowd proudly. Call your teachers/bosses Nazi's proudly, if you be so
inclined. Voice your own disapproval proudly. Stand for what you believe
in... Proudly. Show your real tendencies, not what some Orwellian
interfering code tells you your tendencies are. Because those are the
threads of the fabric that are really you.
-Felyne32k
Fur Code FFDc2dfmrsw A C- D H+ M P+ R+ T W Z Sm RLCT a- cn++++ d++ e- f h*
i++ j+ p++ sf-
REMOVE THE <REMOVE> TO REPLY
ShadowSong
turns on the mike.*
OK. I'm going to surprise everyfur, but I mean this.
I am tired of all this Matt-baiting. The guy made a mistake. But it wasn't
entirely his fault. Give it a rest. Let him get on with his life. Let him
*heal*, dammit!!!! *smacks podium hard, briefly glares at audience*
In other words: I'm losing the respect I had for this group, because of
the continued Matt-baiting.
That's why this letter is posted to the group, not emailed to Matt alone.
Now to respond to the post:
"You see what you want to see" is true - for every last being in the universe.
"You believe what you want to believe" is likewise true.
Some furs just don't ever change their minds. Some can be convinced to
see/believe a different way. This is true too.
Want to debate truth and illusion? Later.That's not the point of *this* post.
"Matthew Milam" wrote:
<SNIP>
> There's something interesting, two months later as of last year, I would
> have been taken off of Tapestries Muck for harassing the local furs.
(minor snip)
> As I type this on January 21, 1999, I sitll don't REALLY know what happened.
Matt, I am sorry to tell you this, but sometimes things snowball. And when
the dust settles, beings are hurt, yet no-one knows what happened. It
sounds cliche', but it's true.
Matt, I sympathise with you. Seriously. I'm in the middle of a RL example
of this sort of mess, excuse me if I don't explain further. It hurts too
much just now.
> All I know, and Wayd partly meant this before, was that I feel in love with
> a woman. I never knew her, except through her irish-fox character on the
> muck.
Nothing wrong with that! :)
> But apparently in the midst of however beautiful it was, inner secrets
> became clear to me in the next few weeks...(details snipped)
Well. How do I say this? She was wearing a mask, for her own reasons.
Hell, so am I; I want to be seen as a panthress here, rather than a human
woman :)
Anyone wearing a mask has secrets. Matt, you fell in love with the mask.
Still, that's ok; I have also. Lots of furs fall for other furs' masks.
Expecting the mask to = the real person was one mistake; her expecting you
to know the mask was not the real person was her mistake.
> it didn't help to figure out the truth, because the minds of the "Gods" had
> been made up.
Fate always makes up it's mind before you know whats happening. I realize
the "Gods" you refer to are the high muckety-mucks on Tapestry, but the
parellel exists. Nobody likes being manipulated by fate, high mucky-mucks,
or anyone else.
No-fur likes the shock of truth when the truth is quite different from
what was previously believed.
Believe me, Matt; or don't believe me; but I know how it hurts!!! *sniff*
<snip>
> You may break out the volin and sarcastically make
> remarks of your pleasure, or listen if you don't have anything against me
> saying this.
I'll listen. Hurting furs isn't something I do, except by mistake. Hurting
furs who are already hurting is even less something I do - not purposely
anyway.
> It's now the said date above, and i've possibly will never get over it.
You won't believe this now, but in time you'll find the hurt/anger fades.
I won't say it will leave completely, because sometimes it does and
sometimes it doesn't. What it will do, whether it leaves or not, is change
you - I don't think you're the same Matt now, as the Matt who fell in love
with the vixen.
> Presumably because it didn't need to happen, it didn't need to go out into
> the far reaches of t-shirt land, nor become the regular fodder for the
> usually smart/asshole/but-i'm-so-cool because I have the computer geek
> persona furs. The way it started seemed rather evil.
Give 'em time, and keep quiet. Something else more interesting than
baiting a non-responsive-Matt will come along and snag the group's
attention.
Not responding is the hard part.
> Peter De Sliva was the first one I remember sending me a message to the
> first posting I made on this subject, telling me I was crazy, and that
> professional help was needed. I honestly, for the life of me, don't know why
> that's needed.
For some, it's a game. For some, escapism. For some, a lifestyle. For
some, it's a life. For some, it's other things. You got Peter De Silva's
response, which wasn't very nice, but it was one furson's response. And
_I_ think he was wrong.
No-fur can tell how much - or little - something means for anyfur but
her/himself. If Peter expressed it as the opinion of the list as a whole,
he was wrong, because I don't agree with him. And I'm a member of the
list.
<snip>
> To sum it up... Your basically, ever day, creating your own mess.
Some are, some aren't. Some see a problem, but it doesn't affect them.
Some don't care. Some think it'll blow over. Some try to fix what some
think doesn't need fixing.
> Had I know, that AFF was a warzone,
It isn't totally. only parts are. Rather like the RL world.
and really didnt' see anything as being
> remotely serious,
Some do, some don't.
> I wouldn't have come here in the first place.
And I wouldn't have read your interesting posts. I'm glad you're here.
> No, it's not because i'm an idiot.
Of course not. You're not an idiot.
> But because I see what I want to see, and
> what I want to see is some responsibility.
Some are responsible, some are responsible about what others think are the
wrong things to be responsible about, and some aren't responsible. It's a
group of individuals.
Seriously, Matt, underneath the squabbles we all love animals in all our
varied ways. That is down at the bone what AFF _is_. As far as I'm
concerned, anyway :)
You will always see what you want to see, and believe what you want to
believe - and that is your right. Don't let furs or people who
see/believe differently change what you see/believe. Unless you happen to
choose to decide that maybe they have a point somewhere.
For you, it is what YOU see/believe that matters.
No matter waht anyfur, including me, says. :)
Good luck!
> Sincerely,
> Matthew Milam
Yours,
ShadowSong.
*ShadowSong turns off the mike and leaves the podium, wrapping her
asbestos cape securely around her, and disappears into her shadows...*
nyx at mist dot edu (to reply, remove the t from the weather:)
Peter da Silva
get my name right. It wasn't a response to the first message or even
the third, and he laid out a long and painful list of the problems he was
causing himself before I dared suggest that he do something about them.
I'm sure it's all in dejanews.
Regardless of Matthew's problem with some fox character, his behaviour on
Tapestries and on Usenet was outrageous. People who react to problems by
lashing out at everyone, including the ones who are trying to help them see
where the real causes of their problems are, are just going to get themselves
further and further behind without some kind of intervention.
--
This is The Reverend Peter da Silva's Boring Sig File - there are no references
to Wolves, Kibo, Discordianism, or The Church of the Subgenius in this document
"If you don't have 64 bits, you're not playing with a full DEC."
Matthew Milam
Peter da Silva wrote in message <78v2pm$q...@bonkers.taronga.com>...
>
>I'm sure it's all in dejanews.
I'm afriad it isn't Mr. Da Sliva, otherwise you would have had some points
there.
>
>Regardless of Matthew's problem with some fox character,
Ah, see, this is the problem. You don't really seem to care what happened.
Which brings me to the conclusion that you either do know what happened and
your account at Taps is in danger, or you really don't know what happened
and are really afraid to admit it.
> his behaviour on
>Tapestries and on Usenet was outrageous.
Again, Mr. Da Sliva is looking from the wrong end of the glass here.
According to my observations, there were plenty of you being mean to each
other, making each other cry, and making each other leave Tapestries Muck.
The real only reason they stayed to some extent, was because their behavior
was looked over due to the friendship of a few of the local adminstrators.
And no, this isn't a lie. Why didn't anyone complain?, because technically
as they told me when I had to complain, I was supposed to deal with it. That
sure didn't make sense when it became an issue the other way around.
Usenet's reaction to the posting I made wasn't warranted, because this
newsgroup, even before I came as it seems, had already it's own group of
angry people fighting against everything and everyone they could think off.
And I believe, if I were to go to a con, 99% precent of the fans there
wouldn't even know who the hell I was, because some of them aren't connected
to the Internet, or even read this group!.
And if I recall, some of AFF's very own left due to some behavior of a
simlar nature by you, and about a dozen or so of your own friends. Your
going to probably say "There's a difference"...but essentially there isn't.
But, i'm nipping this in the bud, or at least i'm trying to.
At this point in my life, i've requested the services of a theapist, this
way some of you will get to see me in a more "normal" light. This way, the
next time I go to a muck, join this group, or go to a con. I'll react to the
following situations differently:
"Windows, Hah?, I don't use that crappy buggy thing, I use Linux. The system
for social outcasts"
"Yes, those corporations are destorying the fabric of our society, meanwhile
let me host a Disney Mailing List."
"Film in furry. Hah, the big guys wouldn't let us do any FURRY movies, they
would make them sing and never give them decent diagloue such as "Oh, look
Amiga, I want it, I want it".
"Animals being shot in yellowstone, PROTEST!"
The list can go on. But, I don' t have time, and life does go on. Not
apparently, however, when i'm here.
Matthew Milam
mmi...@interlync.com (may dump this account)
Peter da Silva
Matthew Milam <mmi...@interlync.com> wrote:
>Peter da Silva wrote in message <78v2pm$q...@bonkers.taronga.com>...
>>I'm sure it's all in dejanews.
>I'm afriad it isn't Mr. Da Sliva, otherwise you would have had some points
>there.
If it's not on dejanews then someone's convinced them to remove it. And it
wasn't me.
>>Regardless of Matthew's problem with some fox character,
>Ah, see, this is the problem. You don't really seem to care what happened.
I can't do anything *about* what happened. All I can do is try and convince
you that you're not helping yourself by denying your responsibility for your
own actions.
>Which brings me to the conclusion that you either do know what happened and
>your account at Taps is in danger, or you really don't know what happened
>and are really afraid to admit it.
All I know is what you have done in public. Why you've done it is beside the
point... what you're did publicly was enough to get you thrown off any muck:
every time your character showed up it was powergaming and disrupting
people's conversations. You were, admittedly, mostly doing it in-character,
but you chose to play a character that was abusive and disruptive.
Why you did it? I don't know. Do I care? Yes. If I didn't care I wouldn't
have tried to talk to you. Does it matter? Yes. Should people make allowances
for your broken heart? Probably. Will they? No. This is Usenet. There are
millions of people here, most of whom are total strangers. You show up out
of nowhere with a litany of complaints and expect nobody to contradict
you and magically, telepathically, realise that you're not just some
prankster with an attitude? That there's a deep painful history behind
what you're doing?
I can accept that you made an honest mistake, but your mistake isn't my
fault, your unhappy love affair isn't my fault, and your inability to learn
from it isn't my fault, and I'm not the reason you're getting negative
feedback here, or you ran into potholes on Tapestries.
I'm out of the loop, Matthew. I don't read your posts. I don't read people's
followups to you. I skip threads that your name shows up in. And still you
keep pointing to me as the reason everyone hates you on alt.fan.furry. It's
been months since this has come up and you've apparently been sniping at me
all this time.
Come on, man, can you possibly consider that maybe it *isn't* me that's
the problem?
>And if I recall, some of AFF's very own left due to some behavior of a
>simlar nature by you, and about a dozen or so of your own friends. Your
>going to probably say "There's a difference"...but essentially there isn't.
Nope, I'm not going to say that. What I'm going to say is, "I have no idea
what you're talking about". Because I don't. I don't use Linux, I sold my
Amiga ages ago, and I'm not involved in any quarrel with Disney or any
Yellowstone protest movement. Are you sure you're not thinking of someone
else?
And I'm glad you're seeing someone who can help you. I wish you the best
of luck.
[cancelled and redirected to alt.fan.furry.politics]
Matthew Milam
Peter da Silva wrote in message <791qcd$c...@bonkers.taronga.com>...
>In article <791lg9$684$1...@crucigera.fysh.org>,
>Matthew Milam <mmi...@interlync.com> wrote:
>>Peter da Silva wrote in message <78v2pm$q...@bonkers.taronga.com>...
>>>I'm sure it's all in dejanews.
>
>>I'm afriad it isn't Mr. Da Sliva, otherwise you would have had some points
>>there.
>
>If it's not on dejanews then someone's convinced them to remove it. And it
>wasn't me.
How do you convince someone to remove a whole series of postings spefically
about a person who doesn't really matter that much to USENET? It's silly.
>
>>>Regardless of Matthew's problem with some fox character,
>
>>Ah, see, this is the problem. You don't really seem to care what happened.
>
>I can't do anything *about* what happened.
So what a minute, you do care?
>All I can do is try and convince
>you that you're not helping yourself by denying your responsibility for
your
>own actions.
And you didn't help yourslef in the begining telling me I needed to be,
because that made you seem more interested in fighting than helping.
>
>>Which brings me to the conclusion that you either do know what happened
and
>>your account at Taps is in danger, or you really don't know what happened
>>and are really afraid to admit it.
>
>All I know is what you have done in public.
Then this is where I get confused, why did you bother way back when to reply
to the message when you knew nothing of what happened? (Interestingly
enough, I knew nothing about Peter until i left)
>Why you've done it is beside the
>point... what you're did publicly was enough to get you thrown off any
muck:
I'm afriad your friends on the muck had a much simlar problem to mine, in
fact, the only reason they stayed on as I said, was due to a good
relationship with the adminstrators. Which if true, means that everyone is
above the "so-called" rules of the muck.
>every time your character showed up it was powergaming and disrupting
>people's conversations.
And this is a bad thing?. I've seen most of you do much worse, and it's
always justified as "I've been here longer", "He started it", and other such
nonsense.
> You were, admittedly, mostly doing it in-character,
>but you chose to play a character that was abusive and disruptive.
So what? I assumed that all personalities were accepted there, because I did
see the same personalites in most of the people who were on that muck. It
seems the personality I had didn't agree with you. Which reminds me, exactly
were is the evidence that I was the problem. I mean log's, and a dozen of
them.
>
>Why you did it? I don't know.
I had said it before in the previous post, but because you disregarded it
puts you back at square one.
>Do I care? Yes. If I didn't care I wouldn't
>have tried to talk to you.
You don't exactly tell people to get help because of a few problems they had
with adminstrators.
>Does it matter? Yes. Should people make allowances
>for your broken heart? Probably. Will they? No. This is Usenet.
If that's the case, then I shouldn't care how you feel in theory.
> There are
>millions of people here, most of whom are total strangers. You show up out
>of nowhere with a litany of complaints and expect nobody to contradict
>you and magically, telepathically, realise that you're not just some
>prankster with an attitude? That there's a deep painful history behind
>what you're doing?
Yes, I expect that. And i'm not a fool. I thought for the life of me there
were some who had the same exprience, but it seems the only exprience some
of them had here, was the exprience that the only way to live is through the
misery of others. Plus, might I add, the vaildation from others to do the
same.
>I can accept that you made an honest mistake, but your mistake isn't my
>fault, your unhappy love affair isn't my fault, and your inability to learn
>from it isn't my fault, and I'm not the reason you're getting negative
>feedback here, or you ran into potholes on Tapestries.
Your not the reason, Peter. One of the many however, that kept comming back
consistently to "save" the group. Which might i add, was already in danger
long before I ever came here.
>
>I'm out of the loop, Matthew. I don't read your posts.
Of course you don't, that's why your replying now?
>I don't read people's
>followups to you.
You seemed to.
>I skip threads that your name shows up in. And still you
>keep pointing to me as the reason everyone hates you on alt.fan.furry.
You aren't exactly the reason Peter, just one of many.
>It's
>been months since this has come up and you've apparently been sniping at me
>all this time.
I don't let go of a group of crazies getting on my case for saying something
the opposite of what they are "used" to hearing, so easily.
>
>Come on, man, can you possibly consider that maybe it *isn't* me that's
>the problem?
No I can't, because I still remember it being you. Every time I fought back,
you were there to stop me, along with all of your patriots of this group.
>
>>And if I recall, some of AFF's very own left due to some behavior of a
>>simlar nature by you, and about a dozen or so of your own friends. Your
>>going to probably say "There's a difference"...but essentially there
isn't.
>
>Nope, I'm not going to say that. What I'm going to say is, "I have no idea
>what you're talking about".
Oh of course you do. You don't tell your friends here to can it when they
flame, and that's because you dont' want to lose them.
>Because I don't. I don't use Linux, I sold my
>Amiga ages ago, and I'm not involved in any quarrel with Disney or any
>Yellowstone protest movement. Are you sure you're not thinking of someone
>else?
All of what I said, relates in some way, and possibly being more direct
wouldn't have been as interesting.
>
>And I'm glad you're seeing someone who can help you. I wish you the best
>of luck.
I doubt it.
>
>[cancelled and redirected to alt.fan.furry.politics]
>
And that's the reason.
Matthew Milam
mmi...@interlync.com