Reinventing SqueeRat

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Richard de Wylfin

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Jul 26, 2003, 11:27:32 PM7/26/03
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http://www.ironcircus.com/index.php?content=bio

--
"The gods are just and of our pleasant vices make instruments to
plague us." --Wm. Shakespeare, commenting on furry fandom in -King
Lear-.

Farlo

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Jul 27, 2003, 12:05:11 AM7/27/03
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ration...@yahoo.com (Richard de Wylfin) wrote:
> http://www.ironcircus.com/index.php?content=bio

Maybe she will be a nice person someday?

--
Farlo, the Urban Fey Dragon
"Not content to remain a blockhead."

Michael Hirtes

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Jul 27, 2003, 6:39:19 AM7/27/03
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In article <Xns93C4D6842A9...@68.12.19.6>,
Farlo <hall...@att.net> wrote:

> ration...@yahoo.com (Richard de Wylfin) wrote:
> > http://www.ironcircus.com/index.php?content=bio
>
> Maybe she will be a nice person someday?

Still waiting for you to be one yourself.

Farlo

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Jul 27, 2003, 10:48:21 AM7/27/03
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Michael Hirtes <mhi...@KILL.ALL.THE.SPAMMERS.telemarketers.too.com> wrote:
> Still waiting for you to be one yourself.

Oh, I'm touched.

Paul R. Bennett

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Jul 27, 2003, 6:08:01 PM7/27/03
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Sooo???
Tell me?
Feel all cuddly, all superior.
Sigh...
Ummm....
Maybe postings like this is what drives me to go up to the Darwin Awards
web page, and hope.
Again sigh...
Ever hear of something called "Kharma", or the "Three fold way."
Howsa 'bout taking it to heart?
Paul

Akai

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Aug 1, 2003, 5:53:36 AM8/1/03
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"Richard de Wylfin" <ration...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rationalbeing-2...@pm1-22.hoosier.net...

Funny, I was wondering what she's been up to just yesterday. I've really
enjoyed her art on Yerf, too bad none of it is available anymore. Nice to
see her posting something again.

--Akai


Jason Murdock

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Aug 1, 2003, 12:23:26 PM8/1/03
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Farlo <hall...@att.net> wrote in message news:<Xns93C4D6842A9...@68.12.19.6>...

> ration...@yahoo.com (Richard de Wylfin) wrote:
> > http://www.ironcircus.com/index.php?content=bio
>
> Maybe she will be a nice person someday?

Actually, from having had a couple conversations with her she is a
rather cool person.

Griffure

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Aug 1, 2003, 3:59:21 PM8/1/03
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The gods are plagues and of our just vices make instruments to please us.

Pffff...

Well drawn. It is good to see characters which are a bit fat.

Griffure

Ben Raccoon

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Aug 1, 2003, 7:54:22 PM8/1/03
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Jason Murdock wrote in
news:4d41c746.03080...@posting.google.com:

Surprisingly enough, I agree. I ran into her at her booth at Comic-Con.

--
Ben Raccoon
http://www.secretmoon.org/~ben

more...@greatweed.com

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Aug 1, 2003, 10:31:04 PM8/1/03
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ration...@yahoo.com (Richard de Wylfin) wrote in message news:<rationalbeing-2...@pm1-22.hoosier.net>...
> http://www.ironcircus.com/index.php?content=bio

How about that? She was in Chicago the whole time, and I never even got to meet her.

Pity, I'm sure we'd have a ball trading tales of the LAFFables.

Baboo!

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Aug 2, 2003, 12:03:05 AM8/2/03
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An oddity, really. A person so deeply mired in the (and I say this
jokingly) "history" of the furry fandom is now staunchly
self-seperated and happens to be a female minority. Honestly, how many
black women do you think are furries these days?

She crops up on Something Awful occaisonally to bless us with her sob
stories about her family and on-again-off-again art career. The goons
are only too eager to pay ear time based on her history and talent.
Her good traits - aside from her art - don't show up on the forums too
well - she portrays herself as the archetypal "RAEG AGANST TEH
MACHENE" art gal who nobody understands.

I'm sure she's a fascinating individual, once you get over the
SqueeRat business. Seriously. Think of the stories she's got to tell.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to regret posting this message.

Jason Murdock

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Aug 4, 2003, 11:58:42 AM8/4/03
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ba...@dotcult.com (Baboo!) wrote in message news:<61f05fb9.03080...@posting.google.com>...

> An oddity, really. A person so deeply mired in the (and I say this
> jokingly) "history" of the furry fandom is now staunchly
> self-seperated and happens to be a female minority. Honestly, how many
> black women do you think are furries these days?

Women in general are starting to filter more into this fandom. Should
be interesting to see what comes about in the next couple years.

> I'm sure she's a fascinating individual, once you get over the
> SqueeRat business. Seriously. Think of the stories she's got to tell.

I'm sure her's are no more interesting then anyone else's. She's just
had to put up with more BS because of people trying to take her
thoughts and twisting them into their own BS.

I look at Burned Furs a lot like Christianity. People took what was a
good idea and twisted it to their own ends. Anyone could call
themselves a Christian and anyone could call themselves a Burned Fur.

jason creature murdock

Ken Pick

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Aug 4, 2003, 5:10:50 PM8/4/03
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jtmu...@yahoo.com (Jason Murdock) wrote in message news:<4d41c746.03080...@posting.google.com>...

> ba...@dotcult.com (Baboo!) wrote in message news:<61f05fb9.03080...@posting.google.com>...
> I look at Burned Furs a lot like Christianity. People took what was a
> good idea and twisted it to their own ends. Anyone could call
> themselves a Christian and anyone could call themselves a Burned Fur.

There is one major difference. I don't think Christianity ever got
deliberately torpedoed by its founder out of sheer nastiness. Burned
Fur did.

Squee (who now goes psycho if you call her by that name) started
Burned Fur, attracted a lot of followers (like me) for whom her
manifesto put into words their own uneasiness & suspicions about their
fandom, and later turned on them and sabotaged her own movement,
apparently on a whim.

Burned Fur also had little or nothing to do with "Born-again
Christians aiming to Censor & Destroy Our Fandom". Squee purged all
the obvious Christians first off. I survived to the final blowup only
by being an observer-mode Stealth Christian.

Squee's little whim & tantrum ended up with a lot of collateral
damage. Burned Fur has now become a bogeyman, the "Vast Right-wing
Conspiracy" or "Protocol of the Elders of Zion" of the fandom,
invoking a furry-specific Godwin's Law: Just denounce someone who
disagrees with you as "A Burned Fur" or "One of those Burned Furs".
No more is needed; you have just discredited them forever. Like
"Nazi", "Racist", and "Homophobe!", accusing someone of being a Burned
Fur is our own little Politically-Correct protected form of hate
speech.

Burned Fur is right. Now burned by Burned Fur as well.

Ryu

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Aug 4, 2003, 6:00:48 PM8/4/03
to
Burned Fur's creation was just another Big Ego in Furry fandom needing
attention and trying to gather followers and sycophants. When it
started getting weird[er than normal], Squee left.

Those who don't like Squee Rat can take comfort in the fact that
whenever anyone types the name "Charla Trotman" into Google, a ton of
garbage about the Burned Furs comes up. No matter what she does in the
future, the past Burned Fur stupidity will forever be linked to her
name.

In article <9efdce3a.03080...@posting.google.com>, Ken Pick

Ostrich

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Aug 5, 2003, 12:40:20 AM8/5/03
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cath...@earthlink.net (Ken Pick) wrote in message news:<9efdce3a.03080...@posting.google.com>...

>
> Burned Fur also had little or nothing to do with "Born-again
> Christians aiming to Censor & Destroy Our Fandom".

Rather an understatement, if one goes by
http://www.google.com/groups?q=blaspheme-off+group:alt.fan.furry&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=843eob%24cpq%241%40nnrp1.deja.com&rnum=3

And I have to agree with the other posters that there's little point
in her 'going ballistic' if she's called Squee. You google on 'Charla
Trotman', you're gonna learn all about SqueeRat and the Burned Furs.

-Ostrich! <")

RHJunior

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Aug 5, 2003, 4:54:07 AM8/5/03
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> I look at Burned Furs a lot like Christianity. People took what was a
> good idea and twisted it to their own ends. Anyone could call
> themselves a Christian and anyone could call themselves a Burned Fur.

Oh puhleeze. The woman self-destructed. She had all the interpersonal skills
and charm of a tasmanian devil with herpes, and she snapped and frothed at
everyone around her, friend and foe alike.
"Christ figure" my rampant rosy red ass.

Akai

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Aug 5, 2003, 5:14:38 AM8/5/03
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"RHJunior" <blu...@ntelos.net> wrote in message
news:TqHXa.1961$jq....@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com...

I still remember the chat log that you posted where she and her friends
turned on you. Just plain vicious. If it wasn't for their internal problems
the BF's might have amounted to something good.

--Akai


Martin Skunk

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Aug 5, 2003, 5:55:28 AM8/5/03
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"Akai" <ak...@teleport.com> wrote in message
news:2AKXa.950$Q63....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>

> I still remember the chat log that you posted where she and her friends
> turned on you. Just plain vicious. If it wasn't for their internal
problems
> the BF's might have amounted to something good.
>

The Burned Furs' movement was based on good, legitimate premises.
The idea was good, and the purpose seemed valid, and this is why they
attracted so much attention and support on the first moments.

However, the way some of them acted, and the little help they got
from some of their elements that took the BF movement as a crusade was their
doom. You see, some of them seemed to have serious mental illnesses, and
that didn't help their image (nor furry fandom's). And it's a shame, because
their points were valid.

It's been years since all of that happened, and it's been years
since I've heard of SqueeRat. I'd suggest you to let the ghosts of the past
sleep, and if she wants to go ahead and live her own life, she's on her
right. Besides, it's not our concern anymore.

---Martin Skunk


Ken Pick

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Aug 5, 2003, 12:36:33 PM8/5/03
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Ryu <n...@ix.worlcom.net> wrote in message news:<040820031700489288%n...@ix.worlcom.net>...

> Burned Fur's creation was just another Big Ego in Furry fandom needing
> attention and trying to gather followers and sycophants. When it
> started getting weird[er than normal], Squee left.
>
> Those who don't like Squee Rat can take comfort in the fact that
> whenever anyone types the name "Charla Trotman" into Google, a ton of
> garbage about the Burned Furs comes up. No matter what she does in the
> future, the past Burned Fur stupidity will forever be linked to her
> name.

First of all, what was so stupid about wanting your creatures of the
imagination to Transcend the Animal instead of rutting like animals?
Like we need another pet fuck-toy species in this fandom...

Second, since "Charla" or "Chuck" or whatever she's calling herself
these days can't stand to be called "Squee Rat", how about always
referring to her by that name? Including in any correspondence to
her...

Ken Pick

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Aug 5, 2003, 12:40:26 PM8/5/03
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"Akai" <ak...@teleport.com> wrote in message news:<2AKXa.950$Q63....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...

And with the moderates (i.e. Traitors, Crimethinkers, and
Doubleplusungood Goldsteinists) purged, all that was left was the
crazies. And all that is left now is CrushYiffDestroy, MHirtes, and
all the other "FURRY! WE HATES IT! WE HATES IT FOREVER!!!!!" types.

Karl Meyer

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Aug 5, 2003, 4:45:09 PM8/5/03
to

"Ken Pick" <cath...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:9efdce3a.03080...@posting.google.com...

> jtmu...@yahoo.com (Jason Murdock) wrote in message
news:<4d41c746.03080...@posting.google.com>...
> > ba...@dotcult.com (Baboo!) wrote in message
news:<61f05fb9.03080...@posting.google.com>...
> Squee's little whim & tantrum ended up with a lot of collateral
> damage. Burned Fur has now become a bogeyman, the "Vast Right-wing
> Conspiracy" or "Protocol of the Elders of Zion" of the fandom,
> invoking a furry-specific Godwin's Law:

Burned Fur has become nothing. Even at it's pinacle, most of the fans had
never heard of it. Now it's relagated to obscure history with even fewer
remembering it. The only time it gets mention is around here when somebody
wants to take a few more swings with a squeeky hammer at a very dead horse.


Just denounce someone who
> disagrees with you as "A Burned Fur" or "One of those Burned Furs".
> No more is needed; you have just discredited them forever.

You have just shown how lame and uncreative you are since you can't come up
with something a bit more currently relevant to beat them with.

Squee always had a rather twisted sense of humor. I bet she laughed her ass
off when she dropped the trap to hang the group looking to her as a leader
out in the cold.


mouse

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Aug 6, 2003, 4:42:59 AM8/6/03
to
> Burned Fur's creation was just another Big Ego in Furry fandom needing
> attention and trying to gather followers and sycophants. When it
> started getting weird[er than normal], Squee left.
>
> Those who don't like Squee Rat can take comfort in the fact that
> whenever anyone types the name "Charla Trotman" into Google, a ton of
> garbage about the Burned Furs comes up. No matter what she does in the
> future, the past Burned Fur stupidity will forever be linked to her
> name.
>

Afflicted Past
--------------

Hatred evokes the memories that make your blood run cold.
Fear and sorrow push you away from yourself.

[chorus]
How can you face the world? When you can't face the mirror.
How can you leave your past? With blood on your hands?
Can you run away all your life? Can you escape your punishment?

How many times can you start it all again?
How many lies will it take to cover your tracks?

[chorus]

No matter how far you go Those days are right behind.
The facade of your perfect life. Cannot hide your afflicted past.
There is no escape.


track6 from hatebreed's first album "satisfaction is the death of
desire"
i just found it exceptionally appropriate

i wouldnt have had a prob with the burned furs or squee rat (other
than all the shit she pulled on her own group apperently)
i just find the fact that she "freaks out" when she is called squee
rat and tries to hide from her past - fucking pathetic ...not an
admirable trait, far as im concerned

her current stuff looks cool though

change "afflicted" to "furry" and call it a filk song

Ostrich

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Aug 6, 2003, 5:07:32 PM8/6/03
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cath...@earthlink.net (Ken Pick) wrote in message news:<9efdce3a.03080...@posting.google.com>...

> First of all, what was so stupid about wanting your creatures of the


> imagination to Transcend the Animal instead of rutting like animals?
> Like we need another pet fuck-toy species in this fandom...

Had they defined themselves in that fashion, I think Burned Fur might
have become a respected group. If they ever made efforts to encourage
their members to improve themselves, or to hold their own conduct to a
higher standard than that of others, it wasn't apparent from the
outside. The goal seemed to be the creation of strife and discord,
rather than change. The outcome was probably inevitable, given the
nature of Squee's "manifesto". When you use intolerance of others as
a recruiting tool, you have very little chance of producing an
organization that's directed toward self-improvement.

I always had this strong perception too that a lot of the BFs
implicitly assumed that the fandom existed primarily as a means to
support artists and help them turn pro. I think this underlay a lot
of their anger towards fans who didn't conduct themselves in a
'professional' manner. It seemed to be a common complaint of BF that
fans weren't considering what effect furridom's image might have on
the future art careers of BF members. They saw it as a sort of
betrayal - the fans weren't filling the role that they were 'supposed'
to.

>
> Second, since "Charla" or "Chuck" or whatever she's calling herself
> these days can't stand to be called "Squee Rat", how about always
> referring to her by that name? Including in any correspondence to
> her...

I think 'Squee Rat' and 'Charla Trotman' are pretty much
interchangeable anymore. It's not like I (or most) have the least
intention of writing her anyway.

-Ostrich! <")

Richard de Wylfin

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Aug 6, 2003, 8:46:55 PM8/6/03
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In article <AMqWa.29851$Mc.23...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
"Akai" <ak...@teleport.com> wrote:

Bingo!

http://web.archive.org/web/19991006182639/http://www.yerf.com/trotchar/

(Don't worry if the thumbnails don't load. The files are there.)

New alt.possessive.its.has.no.apostrophe products on Cafeshops:
http://www.cafeshops.com/jotandcomma

RHJunior

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Aug 7, 2003, 4:00:37 AM8/7/03
to

"Ostrich" <ost...@raex.com> wrote in message
news:c6752e89.0308...@posting.google.com...

> cath...@earthlink.net (Ken Pick) wrote in message
news:<9efdce3a.03080...@posting.google.com>...
>
> > First of all, what was so stupid about wanting your creatures of the
> > imagination to Transcend the Animal instead of rutting like animals?
> > Like we need another pet fuck-toy species in this fandom...
>
> Had they defined themselves in that fashion, I think Burned Fur might
> have become a respected group.

They did. Everyone ELSE, however, defined them as prudes, Nazis, homophobes,
and even (eeek!) Southern Baptists.


If they ever made efforts to encourage
> their members to improve themselves, or to hold their own conduct to a
> higher standard than that of others, it wasn't apparent from the
> outside. The goal seemed to be the creation of strife and discord,
> rather than change. The outcome was probably inevitable, given the
> nature of Squee's "manifesto".

When you use intolerance of others as

TWEEEEET!
Okay, monkeybutt, 30 yard penalty for gratuitous use of a PC bullshit
term... "Intolerance." Just in case it's never occurred to you, **there are
things in this world which should never, ever be tolerated.**
The fandom, the forums, the conventions were all turned into cesspits by the
doctrine of "Tolerance for tolerance's sake." EVERYTHING was tolerated...
till the whole fandom became utterly intolerable.

> a recruiting tool, you have very little chance of producing an
> organization that's directed toward self-improvement.
>

FYI, the Burned Furs did make occasional efforts towards those ends---
attempts at communal art projects, ice cream fundraisers for charitable
organizations, and the like.
But the aforementioned leadership gap led to those efforts dwindling away.


> I always had this strong perception too that a lot of the BFs
> implicitly assumed that the fandom existed primarily as a means to
> support artists and help them turn pro.
I think this underlay a lot
> of their anger towards fans who didn't conduct themselves in a
> 'professional' manner.

No, the *fandom* assumed that *artists* existed solely to ceaselessly crank
out free banana-whack material... but that was a separate issue.

The Burned Furs--- at least the artists in it-- didn't view the fandom as a
stepping stool into an art career. Frankly, most viewed it as a dead end. It
was just something they did **because they liked drawing furry art--** but
were finding it impossible to do because of a bunch of worthless food-tubes
running rampant in the fandom.

And it wasn't just artists who were griping about "career problems." It was
fans who were called 'pigfuckers' by former friends; it was would-be
convention goers whose families learned about the depravities at the
conventions and forbade them to go; it was hobbyists who couldn't tell their
friends about their hobby because their friends would associate them with
freaks they'd seen on MTV; it was older siblings and aunts and uncles and
parents who couldn't let their kid brothers and sisters and nieces and
nephews and children in on the fun of the anthro fandom because of the
people turning it into a shitpile.
It was ordinary people, **fans**, who were being called freaks, perverts and
worse because other people calling themselves "furries" went out in public
and acted like either barking moonbats or rutting bonobo chimps.
It was people who were being thrown out of their own fandom by people who
insisted they had to tolerate behavior that any other corner of civilization
would have greeted with pitchforks and torches.
The administrations running the conventions, thank God, finally figured out
that this crap was kicking them in the balls, and yanked the reins in hard.
With the departure of Mark Merlino, a lot of this dwindled as well.

Burned Fur dissolved of its own internal strife. But don't believe for a
minute that the people who were in it simply ceased to exist. Provoke the
fans long enough, and something like Burned Fur will coalesce again. And
probably bigger, meaner, and nastier than it was last time.

To those who want to treat the furry fandom like their personal toilet.....I
recommend you tread lightly.


--
RHJunior

"What was that sound?"
"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
-Dilbert


http://home.ntelos.net/~blue27a
http://nipandtuck.keenspace.com
http://UTLT.keenspace.com
http://NPC.keenspace.com


Akai

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Aug 7, 2003, 1:02:44 AM8/7/03
to

"Richard de Wylfin" <thetal...@mailandnews.com> wrote in message
news:thetalkingfox-D38...@velox.critter.net...

> In article <AMqWa.29851$Mc.23...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> "Akai" <ak...@teleport.com> wrote:
>
> > "Richard de Wylfin" <ration...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:rationalbeing-2...@pm1-22.hoosier.net...
> > > http://www.ironcircus.com/index.php?content=bio
> > >
> > > --
> > > "The gods are just and of our pleasant vices make instruments to
> > > plague us." --Wm. Shakespeare, commenting on furry fandom in -King
> > > Lear-.
> >
> > Funny, I was wondering what she's been up to just yesterday. I've really
> > enjoyed her art on Yerf, too bad none of it is available anymore. Nice
to
> > see her posting something again.
> >
> > --Akai
> >
> >
>
> Bingo!
>
> http://web.archive.org/web/19991006182639/http://www.yerf.com/trotchar/
>
> (Don't worry if the thumbnails don't load. The files are there.)

Mind if I worship you for a while? Thanks!

--Akai


Richard de Wylfin

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Aug 7, 2003, 10:49:05 AM8/7/03
to
In article <U3lYa.911$Ps.7...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
"Akai" <ak...@teleport.com> wrote:

> "Richard de Wylfin" <thetal...@mailandnews.com> wrote in message
> news:thetalkingfox-D38...@velox.critter.net...
> > In article <AMqWa.29851$Mc.23...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> > "Akai" <ak...@teleport.com> wrote:
> >
> > > "Richard de Wylfin" <ration...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:rationalbeing-2...@pm1-22.hoosier.net...
> > > > http://www.ironcircus.com/index.php?content=bio
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > "The gods are just and of our pleasant vices make instruments to
> > > > plague us." --Wm. Shakespeare, commenting on furry fandom in -King
> > > > Lear-.
> > >
> > > Funny, I was wondering what she's been up to just yesterday. I've really
> > > enjoyed her art on Yerf, too bad none of it is available anymore. Nice
> to
> > > see her posting something again.
> > >
> > > --Akai
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Bingo!
> >
> > http://web.archive.org/web/19991006182639/http://www.yerf.com/trotchar/
> >
> > (Don't worry if the thumbnails don't load. The files are there.)
>
> Mind if I worship you for a while? Thanks!
>
> --Akai
>
>

Sure! You're welcome!

Karl Meyer

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Aug 7, 2003, 11:28:17 AM8/7/03
to

"RHJunior" <blu...@ntelos.net> wrote in message
news:FQkYa.3744$jq....@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com...

>
> "Ostrich" <ost...@raex.com> wrote in message
> news:c6752e89.0308...@posting.google.com...
> > cath...@earthlink.net (Ken Pick) wrote in message
> news:<9efdce3a.03080...@posting.google.com>...
> The administrations running the conventions, thank God, finally figured
out
> that this crap was kicking them in the balls, and yanked the reins in
hard.
> With the departure of Mark Merlino, a lot of this dwindled as well.

Actually, they'd figured it out years before Burned Fur came into existance.
By the time the BF was ranting about conventions, the problems were already
pretty much fixed thus leaving the BF complaints as just so many farts in
the wind. For the most part, the ones running the conventions have done a
lot more to help turn things around than the BF's ever did, because the BF's
never actually did anything but run their mouths (and they weren't even very
good at that).

> Burned Fur dissolved of its own internal strife. But don't believe for a
> minute that the people who were in it simply ceased to exist. Provoke the
> fans long enough, and something like Burned Fur will coalesce again. And
> probably bigger, meaner, and nastier than it was last time.

Oh no, not bigger, you mean more than like 10 people? Sure the membership
list was larger, but most of them never did anything other than get
themselves added to said list.


Ken Pick

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Aug 7, 2003, 2:48:49 PM8/7/03
to
"RHJunior" <blu...@ntelos.net> wrote in message news:<FQkYa.3744$jq....@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com>...
> "Ostrich" <ost...@raex.com> wrote in message
> news:c6752e89.0308...@posting.google.com...

> If they ever made efforts to encourage
> > their members to improve themselves, or to hold their own conduct to a
> > higher standard than that of others, it wasn't apparent from the
> > outside. The goal seemed to be the creation of strife and discord,
> > rather than change. The outcome was probably inevitable, given the
> > nature of Squee's "manifesto".
>
> When you use intolerance of others as
>
> TWEEEEET!
> Okay, monkeybutt, 30 yard penalty for gratuitous use of a PC bullshit
> term... "Intolerance."

You missed the obvious oxymororn -- being Tolerant of everything
implies being intolerant of Intolerance. It's like that
Christian-bashing bumper sticker I saw in Mauch Chunk the week after
AC: "STOP RELIGIOUS BIGOTRY! GET RID OF ALL THE CHRISTIANS!" (It
wasn't just Xians who pointed out the paradox in that little
statement...)

> > a recruiting tool, you have very little chance of producing an
> > organization that's directed toward self-improvement.
>
> FYI, the Burned Furs did make occasional efforts towards those ends---
> attempts at communal art projects, ice cream fundraisers for charitable
> organizations, and the like.
> But the aforementioned leadership gap led to those efforts dwindling away.

I met one of my co-writers (who's shaping up as collaborator on
what'll be my first novel) at a BF party a couple AnthroCons ago...

> > I always had this strong perception too that a lot of the BFs
> > implicitly assumed that the fandom existed primarily as a means to
> > support artists and help them turn pro.
> I think this underlay a lot
> > of their anger towards fans who didn't conduct themselves in a
> > 'professional' manner.
>
> No, the *fandom* assumed that *artists* existed solely to ceaselessly crank
> out free banana-whack material... but that was a separate issue.

I don't know which was worse -- the fanboys jonesing for YIFF! or the
fanboys DEMANDING the artist do it for free. The wankers or the
mooches.

One semi-pro artist I know of took email flames from fanboys who
Demanded he Put His Art up on his Website So They "Could Download It
For Free!" (their exact words).

> The Burned Furs--- at least the artists in it-- didn't view the fandom as a
> stepping stool into an art career. Frankly, most viewed it as a dead end. It
> was just something they did **because they liked drawing furry art--** but
> were finding it impossible to do because of a bunch of worthless food-tubes
> running rampant in the fandom.

It is a dead end. Look at the size of the market -- maybe about
10,000 furfans total in the US, a lot of those who won't pay for art
if they can find a way to bootleg it for FREE! Listen to 2 the
Ranting Gryphon's "Art Fans" for an ear-searing description of the
phenomenon. (His "Animal Spirits" rant -- about all the Astral Spirit
Yiffy-Poos trapped in those EEEEVIL Hy00man bodies -- is also great,
and his "Gay Pride" rant also applies to a lot of fanboy antics.)

I have always been vocal about mainstreaming as much as possible.
Even the main SF & Fantasy fan markets are much larger than Furry
Fandom; you want a customer base of 10,000 max, or one of 100,000+ who
are more likely to pay you money for your art/writing?

> And it wasn't just artists who were griping about "career problems." It was
> fans who were called 'pigfuckers' by former friends; it was would-be
> convention goers whose families learned about the depravities at the
> conventions and forbade them to go; it was hobbyists who couldn't tell their
> friends about their hobby because their friends would associate them with
> freaks they'd seen on MTV; it was older siblings and aunts and uncles and
> parents who couldn't let their kid brothers and sisters and nieces and
> nephews and children in on the fun of the anthro fandom because of the
> people turning it into a shitpile.

In many ways, it was like the Satanic Panic hysteria over D&D that I
went through around 1980 or so, except more intense and in-your-face.

> It was ordinary people, **fans**, who were being called freaks, perverts and
> worse because other people calling themselves "furries" went out in public
> and acted like either barking moonbats or rutting bonobo chimps.

My gamer buds kept calling Confurence "FagCon"...

> It was people who were being thrown out of their own fandom by people who
> insisted they had to tolerate behavior that any other corner of civilization
> would have greeted with pitchforks and torches.
>
> The administrations running the conventions, thank God, finally figured out
> that this crap was kicking them in the balls, and yanked the reins in hard.
> With the departure of Mark Merlino, a lot of this dwindled as well.

I (and Eric Blumrich, remember him?) both credit Mustelid Mark with
being a major factor in the Furry = Kinky image. Mark was pretty much
the founder of SoCal furry fandom as a separate genre & organized the
first CFs; then his own instabilities and escapades made him one of
his own fandom's biggest liabilities.

> Burned Fur dissolved of its own internal strife. But don't believe for a
> minute that the people who were in it simply ceased to exist. Provoke the
> fans long enough, and something like Burned Fur will coalesce again. And
> probably bigger, meaner, and nastier than it was last time.

You're already seeing signs of it -- a "FURRY! WE HATES IT! WE HATES
IT FOREVER!!!!" attitude. And in venues more mainstream and
respectable than the Beavises & Buttheads on POE or Hirtes' flames on
a.f.f.

Yesterday I found (and promptly lost the URL to) a Web page with an
interesting quote. (From Memory; I know this is not completely
accurate):

"When legitimate criticism is forced underground, it surfaces much
later, fermented into Fascist violence."

"Fascist" has a specific meaning, boyos, and it's a lot uglier than
"Anybody who tells me I can't do ANYTHING I WANNA DO AND I WANNA DO IT
NOW NOW NOW!"

Ostrich

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Aug 7, 2003, 6:58:22 PM8/7/03
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cath...@earthlink.net (Ken Pick) wrote in message news:<9efdce3a.0308...@posting.google.com>...

>
> You missed the obvious oxymororn -- being Tolerant of everything
> implies being intolerant of Intolerance.

That's undoubtedly true, but it doesn't really address my point. When
you found an organization on the premise that everything wrong is the
Goldsteinists' fault, there's little to no chance that the group is
going to become an agent for any kind of actual reform, either
internal or external.

-Ostrich! <")

mouse

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Aug 8, 2003, 1:40:00 AM8/8/03
to
ost...@raex.com (Ostrich) wrote in message news:<c6752e89.0308...@posting.google.com>...

> cath...@earthlink.net (Ken Pick) wrote in message news:<9efdce3a.03080...@posting.google.com>...
>
> > First of all, what was so stupid about wanting your creatures of the
> > imagination to Transcend the Animal instead of rutting like animals?
> > Like we need another pet fuck-toy species in this fandom...

> I always had this strong perception too that a lot of the BFs


> implicitly assumed that the fandom existed primarily as a means to
> support artists and help them turn pro. I think this underlay a lot
> of their anger towards fans who didn't conduct themselves in a
> 'professional' manner. It seemed to be a common complaint of BF that
> fans weren't considering what effect furridom's image might have on
> the future art careers of BF members. They saw it as a sort of
> betrayal - the fans weren't filling the role that they were 'supposed'
> to.
>

> -Ostrich! <")

exactly ! thats what the BFs should have done, and should have went
through with - to completion. and i never thought id hear it here of
all places either
too bad your on the wrong end of that statement, ostrich, i thought
there was hope for you.

alienating the animation studios and the comic industry and every
other fucking person on the planet was the dumbest mistake furrys ever
made. you want to know why people didnt used to care as much about
furry, or at least didnt recoil in horror from it? what it produced
was included in the mainstream

i wasnt even around for it and its obvious

look at the comics in the 80s, there was no bad press, if anything
some people just didnt like funny-animals ...so what. those titles
were mixed in with EVERYTHING else, that just aint the case anymore.
and it takes more than a few porn comic titles and some nasty art to
do that too. "omaha" didnt damage the genre - you guys fucked
yourselves over with your own bizarre disturbing behaviour...you could
have had at least the common courtesy to stop and consider that
comics, cartooning and art would have been some people's (furries)
goals, or livelihood. but thats not as important as what you wanna
jerk off to or "yiff", huh?? whos "going pro" from within furry now?
anyone? how many of a given furry comic issue is sold? 2000-4000? am i
shooting way too high with those numbers? if you like this shit so
much (i do) , why on earth would you ever make it unacceptable to be
produced, other than by furry-owned or at the very least sympathetic
publishers, or to make people steer clear of it entirely??

fuckin boneheads

Paul Johnson

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Aug 8, 2003, 3:54:46 AM8/8/03
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The Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:00:37 -0700, RHJunior <blu...@ntelos.net> wrote:
>> Had they defined themselves in that fashion, I think Burned Fur might
>> have become a respected group.
>
> They did. Everyone ELSE, however, defined them as prudes, Nazis, homophobes,
> and even (eeek!) Southern Baptists.

Being respected means having the respect of non-members as well as
members. Burned Fur never had this. They just spouted mhirtes Brand
Crap(tm) and was comprised of people who were far too extreme to be
taken seriously.

The whole premise of the group was to try and stamp out a problem
largely unheard of outside furry before that. You think Something
Awful would have found anything furry noteworthy before the Burned
Furs made a lot of noise and drew attention to what they were against?
The Burned Furs have only themselves to blame for the negative
attention the fandom has recieved since then.

> Okay, monkeybutt, 30 yard penalty for gratuitous use of a PC bullshit
> term...

I'm going to call a 30 yard penalty against you, here. Calling
someone "PC" is the political equivilent of calling someone a nazi
online.

> FYI, the Burned Furs did make occasional efforts towards those ends---
> attempts at communal art projects, ice cream fundraisers for charitable
> organizations, and the like.
> But the aforementioned leadership gap led to those efforts dwindling away.

Leadership gap and a self-destructive Usenet blitz. They gave
themselves the kind The Burned Furs disappeared as a group because
people would rather deal with the fandom's problems than be associated
with that problem. The Burned Furs gave themselves the same kind of
PR problem McCarthy gave himself.

> No, the *fandom* assumed that *artists* existed solely to ceaselessly crank
> out free banana-whack material... but that was a separate issue.

And from the cons I've been to, I'm not entirely sure how people got
this misguided idea to begin with.

> The administrations running the conventions, thank God, finally figured out
> that this crap was kicking them in the balls, and yanked the reins in hard.
> With the departure of Mark Merlino, a lot of this dwindled as well.

I think the latter had everything to do with it. Looking through old
con reviews and con photos, if anything changed other than handling
the media, it's pretty well hidden. Between that and personal
experience, I think a lot of it was AFFers who had never been to any
cons bitching about experiences they never had.

> Burned Fur dissolved of its own internal strife.

Which was sort of apparent that it was going to happen the moment
Squee posted the manifesto.

> But don't believe for a minute that the people who were in it simply
> ceased to exist. Provoke the fans long enough, and something like
> Burned Fur will coalesce again. And probably bigger, meaner, and
> nastier than it was last time.

Could you name names? I want to get my filters set up for when the
wingnut extremists get stirred up again.

- --
.''`. Paul Johnson <ba...@ursine.ca>
: :' : proud Debian admin and user
`. `'`
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
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Paul Johnson

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Aug 8, 2003, 4:19:02 AM8/8/03
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The Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:28:17 -0500, Karl Meyer <fer...@rcn.com> wrote:
> For the most part, the ones running the conventions have done a
> lot more to help turn things around than the BF's ever did, because the BF's
> never actually did anything but run their mouths (and they weren't even very
> good at that).

Reminds me of Alan Connor on linux.debian.user or
muc.lists.debian.user right now. Absolutely no comprehension what
he's talking about.

> Oh no, not bigger, you mean more than like 10 people? Sure the membership
> list was larger, but most of them never did anything other than get
> themselves added to said list.

And then distance themselves from the group when they realised there
wasn't anybody willing to make an effort, much less a rational
argument.

If you're going to start a group to better the fandom, by all means,
go ahead and do it. But don't do it out of reactionary spite like the
Burned Furs did, or it will fail just like the Burned Furs did, and
probably faster this time around since people won't put up with it
again. Do it because you love the fandom and have a sense of goodwill
to all comers. This *will* take effort and money.

I think if any such group is going to form, it would gain it's goals
best as a service-oriented group. Some ideas:

Real leadership by someone with some vision, enthusiasm and a skin for
criticism.

Volunteer and sponsor family friendly conventions.

Help people find roommates and rides to cons, possibly sponsor people
who would otherwise be unable to attend.

Win hearts first, and people are much more likely to listen to your
message. The whole Burned Fur concept is flawed: You solve nothing
screaming at Usenet except make people avoid you at the cons.

- --
.''`. Paul Johnson <ba...@ursine.ca>
: :' : proud Debian admin and user
`. `'`
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
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Matt Harpold

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Aug 8, 2003, 7:23:37 AM8/8/03
to

> It is a dead end. Look at the size of the market -- maybe about
> 10,000 furfans total in the US, a lot of those who won't pay for art
> if they can find a way to bootleg it for FREE! Listen to 2 the
> Ranting Gryphon's "Art Fans" for an ear-searing description of the
> phenomenon. (His "Animal Spirits" rant -- about all the Astral Spirit
> Yiffy-Poos trapped in those EEEEVIL Hy00man bodies -- is also great,
> and his "Gay Pride" rant also applies to a lot of fanboy antics.)

Dude, 2 is as embarrassing as everyone else you're going on about. ;-)

> I have always been vocal about mainstreaming as much as possible.
> Even the main SF & Fantasy fan markets are much larger than Furry
> Fandom; you want a customer base of 10,000 max, or one of 100,000+ who
> are more likely to pay you money for your art/writing?

Nothing wrong with this, but some people like the "culture" of the fandom,
and see no need to look elsewhere.


> In many ways, it was like the Satanic Panic hysteria over D&D that I
> went through around 1980 or so, except more intense and in-your-face.
>
> > It was ordinary people, **fans**, who were being called freaks, perverts
and
> > worse because other people calling themselves "furries" went out in
public
> > and acted like either barking moonbats or rutting bonobo chimps.
>
> My gamer buds kept calling Confurence "FagCon"...

I've been to about a dozen furry cons, and at LEASt a dozen gaming cons, and
furries have NOTHING on gamers for nasty gross awfulness pound for pound. I
love gaming, I do art for game publishers, but shit, at least some furries
are easy on the eyes.

And I've been called a freak and a pervert for way less. If someone's
leaving the fandom for that, he's got some seriously thin skin. We're a
fringey fandom, and there's a lot of weirdos. The wierd run the show.
Personally, I don't mind the weirdos, because I actually have self-esteem.
If you don't like it, it's not their job to sweep everything the least bit
offensive under the rug so that you can be confortable.

> > It was people who were being thrown out of their own fandom by people
who
> > insisted they had to tolerate behavior that any other corner of
civilization
> > would have greeted with pitchforks and torches.
> >
> > The administrations running the conventions, thank God, finally figured
out
> > that this crap was kicking them in the balls, and yanked the reins in
hard.
> > With the departure of Mark Merlino, a lot of this dwindled as well.
>
> I (and Eric Blumrich, remember him?) both credit Mustelid Mark with
> being a major factor in the Furry = Kinky image. Mark was pretty much
> the founder of SoCal furry fandom as a separate genre & organized the
> first CFs; then his own instabilities and escapades made him one of
> his own fandom's biggest liabilities.
>
> > Burned Fur dissolved of its own internal strife. But don't believe for a
> > minute that the people who were in it simply ceased to exist. Provoke
the
> > fans long enough, and something like Burned Fur will coalesce again. And
> > probably bigger, meaner, and nastier than it was last time.

Bigger! Meaner! With even MORE capital letters on their websites! Oh, christ
no!

Look, be angry and dissonant all you want. Just keep your silly alarmist
schtick out of my face while I'm enjoying the interesting part of the fandom
(read: the adult stuff) Because it's not going away. The burned fur guys
went away, because they're a joke. A fringe of the fringe.

I'm really not sure whay kind of halcyon community that these people think
is going to come about. I wonder if they think that everyone who has all the
money that drives all the production of R and X rated art is going to just
up and disappear, or what. I'm actually curious if anyone at all thinks this
has even the slightest chance of happening.


> You're already seeing signs of it -- a "FURRY! WE HATES IT! WE HATES
> IT FOREVER!!!!" attitude. And in venues more mainstream and
> respectable than the Beavises & Buttheads on POE or Hirtes' flames on
> a.f.f.

Yeah, I heard it, man. I've been hearing about this backlash. I've been
hearing about it, and gee! It never seems to happen! The cons get bigger,
the quality of art is increasing, and I still don't see any backlash. I see
some smirky high-school Something Awful kids who are pretty righteous behind
a computer screen. Yeah, they're REAL worthy of respect. I mean, Lowtax is a
funny guy, but his sycophants and bootlicks can pound sand.

> Yesterday I found (and promptly lost the URL to) a Web page with an
> interesting quote. (From Memory; I know this is not completely
> accurate):
>
> "When legitimate criticism is forced underground, it surfaces much
> later, fermented into Fascist violence."
>

This is some good alarmist rhetoric.When I think furry, I think fascist.
What the hell?

-Turbine


Ken Pick

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Aug 8, 2003, 12:09:05 PM8/8/03