Acceptable Piracy?

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Sibe Husky

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Aug 11, 2005, 5:24:19 PM8/11/05
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Downloading photoshop to make furry art : Ok

Downloading mp3s to enjoy while making furry art: Ok

Downloading furry movies to watch while making furry art: Ok

Downloading the furry art that has been made with pirated software,
while listening to pirated music and watching pirated movies: Not Ok?

That what its sounding like around here.

Plus I move that I am withdrawing all my support from all of the furry
conventions in the *WORLD* because you all have banned me! How dare you
ban me! I am going to make sure to remove ALL of my ads from your
filthy con books and I will NEVER buy a dealers table again.

The world will never be regaled by the likes of SIBE XXX ISSUE 1

BECAUSE IM KEEPING ALL MY FURRY ART TO MYSELF SO YOU GUYS CANT PIRATE
IT!

See... dont cha feel sorry now?

iBuck

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Aug 11, 2005, 5:31:03 PM8/11/05
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Sibe Husky wrote:
> Downloading photoshop to make furry art : Ok

Nope, I bought mine, you can buy yours...


> Downloading mp3s to enjoy while making furry art: Ok

Who needs em? I've got thousands of legit tunes to listen to..

> Downloading furry movies to watch while making furry art: Ok

Mine are on perfectly legit DVDs..

> Downloading the furry art that has been made with pirated software,
> while listening to pirated music and watching pirated movies: Not Ok?

I don't do any of the above, so NAHHHH!

jarro...@gmail.com

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Aug 11, 2005, 5:40:21 PM8/11/05
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God forbid you learn to draw, Ross.

But yes, you bring up some very interesting points that people
seriously need to address before they condemn you.

Sibe Husky

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Aug 11, 2005, 6:01:51 PM8/11/05
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iBuck, google has taken the time to archive years of you saying that
you purchased photoshop. You win a gold star!

The gold star costs 650 dollars!

Millions of other people just download the gold star, but you bought it
for 650 dollars! Dosent that make your gold star shinier and better? :D

PlanetFur

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Aug 11, 2005, 6:45:10 PM8/11/05
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I think it also comes from the fact that iBuck gets PAID to use that
Photoshop anyways, and at a nice sum to boot.

This is also what Photoshop is for. It costs a few hundred because the
people who should be using something that powerful should make that up
in a few days worth of work.

There are cheaper alternatives, and apparently now plenty of people are
using OpenCanvas instead of PS for their art. So, who knows?

Patrick Elliott

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Aug 11, 2005, 8:31:26 PM8/11/05
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In article <1123795459.2...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
evil...@gmail.com says...

> Downloading photoshop to make furry art : Ok
>
Nope. Paid for PSP6. Though, I was using the non-time limited PSP 4
before and have Gimp on the other system.

> Downloading mp3s to enjoy while making furry art: Ok
>

Does Anime music, which you can't buy in the US (at least anything like
reliably) or remixes from places like http://www.ocremix.org/ count?

> Downloading furry movies to watch while making furry art: Ok
>

Hmm. Don't have the bandwidth, but if I did.. I still prefer the original
quality over the horrible versions you usually find.

> Downloading the furry art that has been made with pirated software,
> while listening to pirated music and watching pirated movies: Not Ok?
>

??? Ah yes.. I always make sure to look for the skull and crossbones that
pirate software and the sound waves from pirate music and movies 'embed'
in the images, before I take a serious look at them or save them to disc.
;) lol

> Plus I move that I am withdrawing all my support from all of the furry
> conventions in the *WORLD* because you all have banned me! How dare you
> ban me! I am going to make sure to remove ALL of my ads from your
> filthy con books and I will NEVER buy a dealers table again.
>

Well, if/when I ever have the time or cash.. Somehow I suspect I won't
miss you. But, assuming your not just ranting for no sane reason, you
have my highly provisional sympathy.

--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive
call functional_code()
else
call crash_windows();
}

iBuck

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Aug 11, 2005, 8:37:32 PM8/11/05
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Actually, mine was considerably less than $650 when I got it, and once
I had done so, it allowed me to get all sorts of other software much
cheaper too, (the sidegrade on LiveMotion was great) and I don't have
to worry about mine being laden with viruses, or missing any needed
files and it comes with the manuals to boot...

iBuck

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Aug 11, 2005, 8:40:35 PM8/11/05
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>Does Anime music, which you can't buy in the US (at least anything like
>reliably) or remixes from places like http://www.ocremix.org/ count?

Prolly not, since you actually can get it fairly reliably if you get
off your duff...

jarro...@gmail.com

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Aug 12, 2005, 8:19:40 AM8/12/05
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You can get almost every anime CD legally in the states now by
Importing it from Japan. Entire shops are set up that are built to
facilitate the US / Japanese anime music/game music market. YES, they
cost more. The point is, thoough, if you are unwilling to pay th
ecost for the anime music/game music and you download it, you are NO
DIFFERENT than furs unwilling to pay the cost for the artwork and thus
decide to torrent it.

Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

Wanderer

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Aug 12, 2005, 8:44:56 AM8/12/05
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Nice triple-post. But where's the half-gainer?

<jarro...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1123849186.7...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

jarro...@gmail.com

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Aug 12, 2005, 9:44:23 AM8/12/05
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Wanderer: Sorry. I hit send and then hopped into the shower. No idea
where the other two came from, but I cancelled them once I got here to
work.

Sibe Husky

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Aug 12, 2005, 12:09:19 PM8/12/05
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its ok jarrod, the wanderer was just trying to take potshots at anyone
even vaguely not supporting the BURN SIBE crew.

Hes just a sandy cunt.

Wanderer

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Aug 13, 2005, 3:52:19 AM8/13/05
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<jarro...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1123854263....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Wanderer: Sorry. I hit send and then hopped into the shower. No idea
> where the other two came from, but I cancelled them once I got here to
> work.
>

No problem.:) I just figured somebody reading this thread should post
something funny. Face it, anyone who takes me seriously deserves to.:>

Yours truly,

The wolfish,

Wanderer
wand...@ticnet.com

"Where am I going? I don't quite know.
What does it matter *where* people go?
Down to the woods where the bluebells grow!
Anywhere! Anywhere! *I* don't know!"
-- a. a. milne


Wanderer

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Aug 13, 2005, 3:58:20 AM8/13/05
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"Sibe Husky" <evil...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1123862959.3...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> its ok jarrod, the wanderer was just trying to take potshots at anyone
> even vaguely not supporting the BURN SIBE crew.

<aside> <stifled laughter> I wonder when he'll realize he's claiming a
trend based on the first post I've made in this thread? </aside>

Sorry to disappoint you, O many-storied malefactor, but I'm not plunging
into this pool of sulfuric acid you keep filling for your swimming lessons.
You go right ahead and prompt people to hate you; I'm here fur the
laughter.:>

>
> Hes just a sandy cunt.
>

<cocks head> <ponders> I'm the wrong gender fur a start: Only one X
chromosome in this wolfie. And I'm in the wrong terrain: No sand unless
you count the sandbox of one of the local kids.

I might be a gadfly, or even an annoying git. I expect I might qualify for
"amusing nuisance" (or at least half of it). But as I said to Jarrod (who
is quite the polite poster under the correct circumstances), anyone who

takes me seriously deserves to.:>

Yours with a howl in his heart and a spring in his lope,

Patrick Elliott

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Aug 13, 2005, 8:11:17 PM8/13/05
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In article <1123807235....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
lncra...@aol.com says...
Next question is a) at what price and b) in what form. Yeah, I know you
can get it, its just not real convenient to find some of it, especially
if its from older anime. Heck, some of the old stuff, like music from AD
Police, its almost impossible to find 'online', never mind on CD.

Patrick Elliott

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Aug 13, 2005, 8:15:18 PM8/13/05
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In article <1123849180....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
jarro...@gmail.com says...
I don't have a lot. As for willing, more like able. I don't have the
spare cash most of the time, there is no local place I can get it, though
I haven't thought about looking online. Unless you know what you are
looking for, its not always possible to find it online. And some of it
isn't available 'period'. I know, I have looked. As for game music, what
parts of 'remix' do you not get. Somehow I seriously doubt I can go to a
shop and ask them to sell me an unofficial remix of the game music from
some 8-bit game they don't even sell anymore, just as an example.

iBuck

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Aug 14, 2005, 9:38:07 AM8/14/05
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>I don't have a lot. As for willing, more like able. I don't >have the
>spare cash most of the time, there is no local place I >can get it, though

Your lazyness and penny-pinching does't entitle you to infinge
someone's copyright,...

>I haven't thought about looking online

-except for the torrents...

>And some of it isn't available 'period'. I know, I have >looked

You -can- live without it you know.... you don't -need- to go behind
the artist's back to get it, set up a few e-bay or amazon searches,
browse around at the cons, there are plenty of legit ways to find
stuff, and if you can't you don't -need- them anyway...

I can wait, so can you..

Patrick Elliott

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Aug 15, 2005, 9:21:19 PM8/15/05
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In article <1124026687....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
lncra...@aol.com says...

> >I don't have a lot. As for willing, more like able. I don't >have the
> >spare cash most of the time, there is no local place I >can get it, though
>
> Your lazyness and penny-pinching does't entitle you to infinge
> someone's copyright,...
>
If I never buy the real thing, your right. Otherwise its no different
than copying the music of the DVD I already own, though that has other
stuff layered over the top in some cases.

> >I haven't thought about looking online
>
> -except for the torrents...
>

No, I have in several cases tried to find the actual music. I gave up for
a long time though, because it just didn't exist, unless it was some
clown on Ebay, with no certainty you where getting the real thing anyway.

> >And some of it isn't available 'period'. I know, I have >looked
>
> You -can- live without it you know.... you don't -need- to go behind
> the artist's back to get it, set up a few e-bay or amazon searches,
> browse around at the cons, there are plenty of legit ways to find
> stuff, and if you can't you don't -need- them anyway...
>
> I can wait, so can you..
>

And I can buy the real thing when I do have the cash, even if in the
short term I don't. I have done that several times. I am not a thief,
just not someone that has any hope of buying the stuff I do like all at
one time, or while I still remember what the heck it is. Maybe my view is
a tad looser than yours and I am sure, some people will quite happily
proclaim that people *don't* actually buy something once they have it,
and you might be one of them. If so, then your wrong. I have for example
all episodes of Bubblegum Crisis 2040 on CD, but have bought the first
two DVDs. When I can scrape the cash together I fully intend to buy the
full boxed set, sell the two legit ones I have back, so I can pick up
something like another one from 'ES: Otherwise', then destroy the ones I
spent over a month downloading from dialup. If my local cable company had
the Anime Network on its roster, I could have recorded them all off it,
and somehow **not** get screamed at by people like you for basically
doing the exact same thing. Go preach to someone that is selling 500
illegal copies of the latest movie and 'never' pays for anything.

Ramesses, Rich in years, Great in victories

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Aug 16, 2005, 9:05:39 AM8/16/05
to
"iBuck" <lncra...@aol.com> bowed down before Ramesses in the palace
of alt.fan.furry and said:

>You -can- live without it you know.... you don't -need- to go behind
>the artist's back to get it, set up a few e-bay or amazon searches,
>browse around at the cons, there are plenty of legit ways to find
>stuff, and if you can't you don't -need- them anyway...
>
>I can wait, so can you..

One day I will die and become Osiris, reigning in the underworld, and
my son will rise to become the Horus king and take my place.

This life, before we go the eternal reed gardens is short. Very short.

---
"no loot equalled this one, nor in the indies was there
ever found such wealth"

Brian O'Connell

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Aug 16, 2005, 2:34:51 PM8/16/05
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"Patrick Elliott" <shado...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d6aed621...@news.critter.net...

> In article <1124026687....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> lncra...@aol.com says...
> > >I don't have a lot. As for willing, more like able. I don't >have the
> > >spare cash most of the time, there is no local place I >can get it,
though
> >
> > Your lazyness and penny-pinching does't entitle you to infinge
> > someone's copyright,...
> >
> If I never buy the real thing, your right. Otherwise its no different
> than copying the music of the DVD I already own, though that has other
> stuff layered over the top in some cases.
>
> > >I haven't thought about looking online
> >
> > -except for the torrents...
> >
> No, I have in several cases tried to find the actual music. I gave up for
> a long time though, because it just didn't exist, unless it was some
> clown on Ebay, with no certainty you where getting the real thing anyway.

The interesting gray area for me, is MST3K and out of print movies (for
example, up til now, Rock & Rule was unavailable on video for nigh on 15
years).

For example: MST3K states, specifically in their credits, "Keep distributing
the tapes". As the obvious digital equivilent goes, their show is seeing
widespread voluntary distribution (even though their permission to show some
of the movies has obviously lapsed). The common philosophy in the DAP
(Digital Archive Project) is: If it isn't on a DVD from Rhino Video, it's
free game.

Having been in contact with the person in charge of Project Mistie, a
program dedicated to deliver videos of MST3K to the troops in Iraq, that is
the impression I received. Since the MST3K Information Club (the official
fan club) condones and supports this program, it leaves one to believe that,
in fact, this counts as "acceptable piracy".

Otherwise, I consider things like sharing television shows on the web to be
no worst, technically, than sending a videotape with the same shows to
somebody who either didn't have cable or the opportunity to record it. Same
goes for anime encoded from TV broadcasts (which is pretty much what led to
anime catching on to begin with). Once it's licensed, however, then it
ceases distribution, simple as that. Only the determined will track it down
and download it.

That's the curse of piracy, unfortunately, it's got a lot of gray areas. In
Sibe's case, however, his perception of said grays is in fact an inversion,
eg; light is dark and vice versa.


BR

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Aug 16, 2005, 3:14:58 PM8/16/05
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On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:34:51 -0700, Brian O'Connell wrote:

> Otherwise, I consider things like sharing television shows on the web to
> be no worst, technically, than sending a videotape with the same shows
> to somebody who either didn't have cable or the opportunity to record
> it. Same goes for anime encoded from TV broadcasts (which is pretty much
> what led to anime catching on to begin with).

I wonder if people leave the commercials in?

iBuck

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Aug 16, 2005, 3:15:08 PM8/16/05
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> If I never buy the real thing, your right. Otherwise its no different
> than copying the music of the DVD I already own, though that has other
> stuff layered over the top in some cases.

Considering your complaint is that you can't buy the real thing, I
don't see that the other case applies often, and it -is- diffrent,
because backing up what you own, doesn't involve anyone distributing
the work around, not to mention that you you can't know when or if you
will "get the real thing"

>Go preach to someone that is selling 500
> illegal copies of the latest movie and 'never' pays for anything.

Oh I will, but I'll aso preach at the person who can't justify why they
-have- to have some song, and can't eitehr wait to get it, or do
without...

I've gone as far as trading with friends over the internet, who live in
places where it -is- availble to get real copies of items (*brandish
his CD of Schanppi, gotten in return for an art comission with a friend
in germany*)

So basically, the "I can't find it legally" or "I can't afford to get
it" just doesn't fly for me, because there is no -need- on anyone's
part to get the latest pop tune... bide your time, if you're not
intrested in it when you do get a chance to aquire, why did you need it
so badly in the first place?

by the way, I tend to avoid calling people "theives" when it comes to
copyright infingement, doing so, lets me avoid the whole "what do I
steal" argument, I have other terms I perfer.. oathbreaker, liar,
untrustworthy git...

When you infringe someone's copyright, you're breaking the bargian they
gave the work to the public with, if you don't like that bargain, you
can try negociate one with them, but if you don't agree, you're not
entitled to break the bargian, and get the work anyway..

BR

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Aug 16, 2005, 3:25:11 PM8/16/05
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On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:15:08 -0700, iBuck wrote:

> When you infringe someone's copyright, you're breaking the bargian they
> gave the work to the public with, if you don't like that bargain, you
> can try negociate one with them, but if you don't agree, you're not
> entitled to break the bargian, and get the work anyway..

Oh I can assure you. People have an excuse to that as well.

Brian O'Connell

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Aug 16, 2005, 3:35:25 PM8/16/05
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"BR" <brodr...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.08.16...@comcast.net...

I dunno, but as far as I know, commercial slots are paid for at time of
broadcast, not ad infinitum. If they're left in, then one could say that the
advertisers were getting an unfair advantage, since they would pay for one
night's worth of airplay, but have months to years of repeats.

Of course, it is an interesting factor that about the time when VCRs reached
about a 75% market share, that infomercials came into being.


Patrick Elliott

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Aug 16, 2005, 5:52:06 PM8/16/05
to
In article <ddtbll$1oqa$1...@urocyon.critter.net>, doge...@comcast.net
says...

> Once it's licensed, however, then it
> ceases distribution, simple as that. Only the determined will track it down
> and download it.
>
Yes, this is something others are falsely assuming about the anime music
I have. The sight I get it from *only* carries anime music from companies
that have expressed that they do not care if it is shared or encourage
it. Ones that are licensed by the companies that do have a problem with
it are immediately removed when they get bought by the that company or
are immediately rejected if they are already owned by them.

Patrick Elliott

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Aug 16, 2005, 5:56:27 PM8/16/05
to
In article <1124219708.6...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
lncra...@aol.com says...

> > If I never buy the real thing, your right. Otherwise its no different
> > than copying the music of the DVD I already own, though that has other
> > stuff layered over the top in some cases.
>
> Considering your complaint is that you can't buy the real thing, I
> don't see that the other case applies often, and it -is- diffrent,
> because backing up what you own, doesn't involve anyone distributing
> the work around, not to mention that you you can't know when or if you
> will "get the real thing"
>
> >Go preach to someone that is selling 500
> > illegal copies of the latest movie and 'never' pays for anything.
>
> Oh I will, but I'll aso preach at the person who can't justify why they
> -have- to have some song, and can't eitehr wait to get it, or do
> without...
>
Lets be clear about one thing. Most anime companies 'supported' the
creation of fan subs. Most also have flat out stated they don't care if
the music is traded. A few have flat out expressed the belief that these
things are not acceptable. Guess which companies won't find their music
posted on the torrent site I have gotten all of them from... When ever
some company expresses that they don't want them traded, they get
removed. But that still leaves a lot that have flat out said they don't
care.

PlanetFur

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Aug 16, 2005, 6:10:22 PM8/16/05
to
Patrick Elliott wrote:

> Lets be clear about one thing. Most anime companies 'supported' the
> creation of fan subs. Most also have flat out stated they don't care if
> the music is traded. A few have flat out expressed the belief that these
> things are not acceptable. Guess which companies won't find their music
> posted on the torrent site I have gotten all of them from... When ever
> some company expresses that they don't want them traded, they get
> removed. But that still leaves a lot that have flat out said they don't
> care.

Incorrect. Anime companies never supported fan subs. Why? Because fan
subs do not give the anime companies any money for licensing. I've
spoken to two companies who purchase rights to Japanese shows and manga
for the North American market, and part of the contract includes mention
that they are also the representative to protect their copyrights in the
North American market.

The reason why there aren't Japanese companies coming over and suing
people for infringement, or sending C&D orders, are because of the lack
of English lawyers on staff with an understanding of the US Law, and
because of the inability to police TWO regions by one company.

Lack of policing does not equate to fully supporting.

Rick Pikul

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Aug 16, 2005, 10:26:39 PM8/16/05
to

At least some do, when I first saw Sailor Stars the tapes were directly
recorded from broadcast, with all commercials and earthquake warnings
intact.

--
Phoenix

Rick Pikul

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Aug 16, 2005, 10:34:11 PM8/16/05
to
On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:10:22 -0400, PlanetFur wrote:

> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>
>> Lets be clear about one thing. Most anime companies 'supported' the
>> creation of fan subs. Most also have flat out stated they don't care if
>> the music is traded. A few have flat out expressed the belief that these
>> things are not acceptable. Guess which companies won't find their music
>> posted on the torrent site I have gotten all of them from... When ever
>> some company expresses that they don't want them traded, they get
>> removed. But that still leaves a lot that have flat out said they don't
>> care.
>
> Incorrect. Anime companies never supported fan subs. Why? Because fan
> subs do not give the anime companies any money for licensing. I've
> spoken to two companies who purchase rights to Japanese shows and manga
> for the North American market, and part of the contract includes mention
> that they are also the representative to protect their copyrights in the
> North American market.

One of the rules for fansubbers has always been that you stop
distributing when someone gets the licence.[1] The reason for the tacit
support was that popular fansubs attract licence offers.


[1] The other big one is _NOT FOR SALE OR RENT_, to the point that the
anime club I was in in university broke all ties with the store that had
by far the best selection and had done the most as a sponser when they
were caught renting fansubs.

--
Phoenix

Message has been deleted

GoldAnthroWolf

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Aug 17, 2005, 2:44:56 AM8/17/05
to

"Dennis Lee Bieber" <wulf...@dm.net>

> On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:34:51 -0700, "Brian O'Connell"

> <doge...@comcast.net> declaimed the following in alt.fan.furry:

> One minor difference -- duplication of a standard videotape will
> result in signal loss on each copy generation. That doesn't happen with
> digital signals. I suspect very few in the industry would really
> complain if copying a show off the network required it be rendered as
> NTSC analog video, fed over an RCA phono jack (well, okay, let's allow
> S-Video), and redigitized... In real-time yet!

The getup I got on my pooter right now will allow me to pull straight from
any S-Vhs, Composite source and stream to a DVD-RW like the system that
Phillips has. I even have an option like TiVo to devert, to then stream it.
Too bad I don't have a DVD-RW or I'd be pirating Stargate off SCI on
Fridays.

Reminds me, I need to hunt down that UK DVD of BSG online for my roomate,
cause I'm simply to lazy to go out with my legs and walk the 25 miles to
Wal-Mart to pick it up. Yeah.


--
------
Alan Kennedy - The GoldAnthroWolf, known as TriGem Olandarinse.

-Contact-
ICQ:....8781052
MSN:....GoldAnthroWolf(at)hotmail(dot)com
Yahoo:..GoldAnthroWolf
AIM:....GoldAnthroWolf

-webthings-
http://www.furnation.com/trigem
http://www.livejournal.com/users/trigem/


Brian O'Connell

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Aug 17, 2005, 4:32:10 AM8/17/05
to
"Dennis Lee Bieber" <wulf...@dm.net> wrote in message
news:ro35g198jnlqq1j2o...@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:34:51 -0700, "Brian O'Connell"
> <doge...@comcast.net> declaimed the following in alt.fan.furry:
>
>
> >
> > Otherwise, I consider things like sharing television shows on the web to
be
> > no worst, technically, than sending a videotape with the same shows to
> > somebody who either didn't have cable or the opportunity to record it.
Same
>
> One minor difference -- duplication of a standard videotape will
> result in signal loss on each copy generation. That doesn't happen with
> digital signals. I suspect very few in the industry would really
> complain if copying a show off the network required it be rendered as
> NTSC analog video, fed over an RCA phono jack (well, okay, let's allow
> S-Video), and redigitized... In real-time yet!

Sure, the quality doesn't degrade as opposed to tape, but if anyone recalls
the Sony Vs. Universal case, that was never the issue (hell, the technology
was still so new that nobody took degradation into account). The issue was
"time shifting" so that one wouldn't have to be awake, watching the show, or
even in town at the moment to be allowed to record a personal copy of a
broadcasted TV show. Since, in effect, our taxes pay for the airwaves, and
subsequently, our money goes into cable TV, we have the right to have a copy
of what we would have watched if we were shackled to our TVs. In essense,
it's a matter of fair use.

To flip the positions, I downloaded the SkyOne Battlestar Galactica episodes
3 months before it aired in the US. Ironically, because both myself and my
mom enjoyed it so much, we wound up watching it again on Sci-Fi, WITH the
advertisements. So by that "leak", they actually ensured that their
advertisers would have an audience, despite any so called losses due to many
fans seeing it before the fact. I suspect that SkyOne has the same thing
happening for it in a few months from now, since there's plenty of US fans
distributing the episodes for this season, almost 3 months before it's
scheduled to air in the UK.


GoldAnthroWolf

unread,
Aug 17, 2005, 4:38:24 AM8/17/05
to

"Brian O'Connell" <doge...@comcast.net>


> To flip the positions, I downloaded the SkyOne Battlestar Galactica
> episodes
> 3 months before it aired in the US. Ironically, because both myself and my
> mom enjoyed it so much, we wound up watching it again on Sci-Fi, WITH the
> advertisements. So by that "leak", they actually ensured that their
> advertisers would have an audience, despite any so called losses due to
> many
> fans seeing it before the fact. I suspect that SkyOne has the same thing
> happening for it in a few months from now, since there's plenty of US fans
> distributing the episodes for this season, almost 3 months before it's
> scheduled to air in the UK.

Actually it burned me and my roomate up that they played/playing it ahead in
the UK compared to the US :P Rather irratating to tell you truth. Though
we may wind up picking up the UK version DVD whenever we go to Wal-Mart
next, if it's resonably priced, but we ARE going to atlest find an episode
or so off the Net to see if it's like 'weird' or something before forking
out the cash, cause Wal-Mart has that no-return policy and the like.

Hate blowing 20-50$ on a DVD/Series for it to be shit, not that BSG is shit,
it's awesome, but if the version sucks.. well.. blah.. you get my point..
hopefully..

*flops*

*snore*

iBuck

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Aug 17, 2005, 9:25:59 AM8/17/05
to
> Yes, this is something others are falsely assuming about the anime music
> I have. The sight I get it from *only* carries anime music from companies
> that have expressed that they do not care if it is shared or encourage
> it.

If it's a false assumption, you've encouraged it along, by not saying
that your downloads are arguably -legal-... I have a couple thousand
downloads, but I haven't mentioned them here, because they're all off
iTunes...

Message has been deleted

GoldAnthroWolf

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Aug 17, 2005, 2:46:04 PM8/17/05
to

"Dennis Lee Bieber" <wulf...@dm.net>

> Yeah, but my point was: what if making a copy of that DVD required
> you to convert back to composite/S-video (not component video, and
> definitely not a digital video) format and "recapture" that analog
> signal...

Ick, I see what you mean. I've done some CrYrGr (whatever the 3 signal
cords are) recordings before, via various high-end DVD players to VHS and
when play back is done, looks like crap, because it can't handle the signal.
Though, I've always found it interesting that you can split said signal up,
send it across a line, only to have it recomplied at the end into 3 simple
colors. The doctor I do work for has a nice DVD-VHS player (like $300) and
it has the optional 30 pin ribbon cable that I hooked up to his 50 inch
plasma. However, compared to the normal RCA input, there really isn't that
much of a notacible differrance. I think it's all a mattter of HOW extreme
you want to get.

>While the degradation probably won't be as bad as straight
> analog->analog copies, you are going to start getting it... IOW, if
> duplicating a DVD was the equivalent, not of copying a JPEG file from
> one location to another, but of OPENING that JPEG and RESAVING it
> (adding more and more JPEG noise each time). {And since DVD MPEG has
> similar artifacting, it would rapidly get ugly -- unlike 13GB/hour AVI}

True, but it all depends on HOW you save the Jpeg. With Photoshop you can
save at several levels of compression/quality. I always save at 10, with
progressive scan 3, because 5 is too much. Generally a 800x600 image will
save out to about 100k which isn't all that bad, with next to no loss. If
you save at 6-medium, 3 progressive, it's about 30-40k with definat loss.

A progam my friend has is called DVD shrink, neat program, and she takes and
rips DVD's and some are really good for compressing, others wind up taking
MORE space compressed then the actual original media.. so.. who knows.

Patrick Elliott

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Aug 17, 2005, 5:12:59 PM8/17/05
to
In article <1124285159.5...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
lncra...@aol.com says...

> > Yes, this is something others are falsely assuming about the anime music
> > I have. The sight I get it from *only* carries anime music from companies
> > that have expressed that they do not care if it is shared or encourage
> > it.
>
> If it's a false assumption, you've encouraged it along
Its not a false assumption though. First, most of the anime producers
flat out said they don't mind in the past and second, the ones that do
are mostly always American companies that remaster some original
companies product, then scream, "And don't go and do something stupid,
like continuing to trading a fan based translation, even though ours
sucked, because if you do, *we* will sue you." Tends to discourage the
honest traders from posting torrents of stuff from the companies that do
that. Which is quite annoying imho, because half the time they hack the
shit out of the anime, screw up the translation and if they redo any
dialog in English, they often manage to mess it up even worse than the
subtitles.

Music is worse. I have one from Inu Yasha I got, just because I claimed
to be in English, which not only is missing 50% of the entire song, the
Engrish version of what they left is almost incomprehensible. Its like
taking "Its a Small World" and substituting 'that thing is' for 'its',
'less than big' for 'small' and 'blue marble' for 'world'. Presto - "That
thing is a less than big blue marble." I am not kidding, its 'actually'
that bad in some parts. Which I suppose why they didn't pick the same
people that mangled the songs to write the English script for the TV. I
shudder to think what the result would have been...

Point is, back before we had ADVflim-flam and other 'American' companies,
it was not only common practice to fansub, but the results where better.
Now we get the equivalent to what my father described once. He worked for
the weld shop for a ski resort and they got a new machine to precision
bend metal. The 'machine' was built in Germany, but the manual and the
technology came from China. The result was that the English manual was,
by the time my father got it, an English translation of a Swiss manual,
produced for German technicians, based on an original Chinese technical
data sheet... They had to send someone to Hong Kong to learn how to make
the damn thing work.

Now maybe that isn't an excuse, but we avoid ones that come from the
Americanized companies, which care more about getting paid than the
integrity of the product, and anyone else that would rather sue the
customer than keep them. Most torrent sites don't make even that
distinction. I go one step farther and make the distinction between the
music, which in some cases *isn't* ever released separately or which is
only for a short time, from the anime. For example, the original music
from the first Bubblegum Crisis was released during 'two years', starting
in 1990. Now if you can find someone selling an original, complete with
half the disc being so scratched that most of the songs are unplayable,
yours lucky. Anyone that had a good copy, wasn't selling it. It was
effectively irreplaceable. I say was, because when I went looking for it,
was in 1995 or so. There was no sign of them 'ever' re-releasing it at
that time. I see the same thing happen with books. Maybe in the next 4-5
years I *might* see more than half of C.J. Cherryh's books I don't have
re-released, but the last time they published most of them was in the
1970s. Normal people don't have 30 years to wait for some moron to decide
that, "yes, in fact we 'will' sell you a copy of that."

Hmm. At $7.50.. I might just buy that CD, now that I know it exists. Got
to find the cash to do it though...

In a perfect world, there wouldn't be a conflict between media producers
and consumers. But in 'this' world, the cost of going to a theatre is now
almost as much as buying the damn thing on DVD in most places, the DVD
itself is double what most people consider it to be worth and the only
people willing to share anything get called communist and un-American
when they do it. It is any surprise that 99% of everything produced gets
stolen in such circumstances? Compared to one guy on the mud I play at,
my actions are exemplary. I do eventually buy the stuff. He has every
anime known to man and is still downloading more of it. I would just as
soon win the lotto and buy it all, but to get my moneys worth I would
have to buy out the companies that keep mangling it, fire the translators
and make the people hired to replace them redo about 90% of it. :(

GoldAnthroWolf

unread,
Aug 17, 2005, 5:29:13 PM8/17/05
to

"Patrick Elliott" <shado...@hotmail.com>

> Its not a false assumption though. First, most of the anime producers
> flat out said they don't mind in the past and second, the ones that do

*snipped for brevity*

> have to buy out the companies that keep mangling it, fire the translators
> and make the people hired to replace them redo about 90% of it. :(
>
> --

I know what you mean. When I watched Wolf's Rain on Cartoon Network I was
like WTF? I watched the whole thing, downloaded, and was shocked to see how
much crap they cut out. Not to mention, the dialouge was actually 'decent'
but the fansubs were so much better at conveying the story, ableit fucked
up.

Another perfect example is Neo(n) Genesis Evangelion. The title alone is a
mistranslation, and somewhere mid-serious Asuka's name gets changed, because
someone didn't know any better.

I'm personally frustrated WHEN I do buy something, after watching it on
TV/downloaded, and see that the fansubed/hobyist does an assload better then
the 'company' did. The Anime form of artwork is just that, a form of
artwork.

The picture is worth a thousand words, but it doesn't make sense if the
words are garbled into 'Do you want fries with that?"

Patrick Elliott

unread,
Aug 17, 2005, 5:23:19 PM8/17/05
to
In article <ddto6g$29c9$1...@urocyon.critter.net>, planetfur@nospam-
planetfur.com says...

> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>
> > Lets be clear about one thing. Most anime companies 'supported' the
> > creation of fan subs. Most also have flat out stated they don't care if
> > the music is traded. A few have flat out expressed the belief that these
> > things are not acceptable. Guess which companies won't find their music
> > posted on the torrent site I have gotten all of them from... When ever
> > some company expresses that they don't want them traded, they get
> > removed. But that still leaves a lot that have flat out said they don't
> > care.
>
> Incorrect. Anime companies never supported fan subs. Why? Because fan
> subs do not give the anime companies any money for licensing. I've
> spoken to two companies who purchase rights to Japanese shows and manga
> for the North American market, and part of the contract includes mention
> that they are also the representative to protect their copyrights in the
> North American market.
>
I am talking primarily about 'prior' to US companies even noticing
that people in the US wanted to buy them. That said, given the high level
within Japanese society that 'honor' has, I would have hoped that the
contract also included, "You lose all right we give you if you screw up
the translations." ;) Strangely, they often get them wrong and in effect
ruin the original dialog, but no one hears a peep about that.

> The reason why there aren't Japanese companies coming over and suing
> people for infringement, or sending C&D orders, are because of the lack
> of English lawyers on staff with an understanding of the US Law, and
> because of the inability to police TWO regions by one company.
>
> Lack of policing does not equate to fully supporting.
>

True enough. But your *seriously* wrong in your assumption that no
Japanese companies have such policies. Their have been cease and desist
from them, even towards sites merely reusing some art for fan sites. Most
though recognize that the reason they even have an American market is
*because* of such sites and content. Unlike the US music industry and the
US companies that think 'protection' means running rough shod over
everyone for the most microscopic infringement, many are not stupid.

Patrick Elliott

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Aug 17, 2005, 5:22:56 PM8/17/05
to
In article <ddto6g$29c9$1...@urocyon.critter.net>, planetfur@nospam-
planetfur.com says...
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>
> > Lets be clear about one thing. Most anime companies 'supported' the
> > creation of fan subs. Most also have flat out stated they don't care if
> > the music is traded. A few have flat out expressed the belief that these
> > things are not acceptable. Guess which companies won't find their music
> > posted on the torrent site I have gotten all of them from... When ever
> > some company expresses that they don't want them traded, they get
> > removed. But that still leaves a lot that have flat out said they don't
> > care.
>
> Incorrect. Anime companies never supported fan subs. Why? Because fan
> subs do not give the anime companies any money for licensing. I've
> spoken to two companies who purchase rights to Japanese shows and manga
> for the North American market, and part of the contract includes mention
> that they are also the representative to protect their copyrights in the
> North American market.
>
Umm. I am talking primarilly about 'prior' to US companies even noticing
that people in the US wanted to buy them. That said, given the high level
within Japanese society that 'honor' has, I would have hoped that the
contract also included, "You lose all right we give you if you screw up
the translations." ;) Strangely, they often get them wrong and in effect
ruin the original dialog, but no one hears a peep about that.

> The reason why there aren't Japanese companies coming over and suing

> people for infringement, or sending C&D orders, are because of the lack
> of English lawyers on staff with an understanding of the US Law, and
> because of the inability to police TWO regions by one company.
>
> Lack of policing does not equate to fully supporting.
>

True enough. But your *seriously* wrong in your assumption that no

Japanese companies have such policies. Their have been cease and decists

from them, even towards sites merely reusing some art for fan sites. Most
though recognize that the reason they even have an American market is
*because* of such sites and content. Unlike the US music industry and the
US companies that think 'protection' means running rough shod over
everyone for the most microscopic infringement, many are not stupid.

--

BR

unread,
Aug 17, 2005, 6:44:41 PM8/17/05
to
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:12:59 -0700, Patrick Elliott wrote:

> In a perfect world, there wouldn't be a conflict between media producers
> and consumers. But in 'this' world, the cost of going to a theatre is
> now almost as much as buying the damn thing on DVD in most places, the
> DVD itself is double what most people consider it to be worth and the
> only people willing to share anything get called communist and
> un-American when they do it. It is any surprise that 99% of everything
> produced gets stolen in such circumstances? Compared to one guy on the
> mud I play at, my actions are exemplary. I do eventually buy the stuff.
> He has every anime known to man and is still downloading more of it. I
> would just as soon win the lotto and buy it all, but to get my moneys
> worth I would have to buy out the companies that keep mangling it, fire
> the translators and make the people hired to replace them redo about 90%
> of it. :(

Gee. Back in my day, people simply refused to buy faulty goods, and let
the businesses know why. Wonder what happened?

Wanderer

unread,
Aug 18, 2005, 3:07:42 AM8/18/05
to
"BR" <brodr...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.08.17....@comcast.net...

> Gee. Back in my day, people simply refused to buy faulty goods, and let
> the businesses know why. Wonder what happened?

Nothing "happened". But when the lousy version of what you want is the only
version you can find, at least a few people will buy the lousy version. If
the only car you could buy got 5 mpg, would you still walk?

Yours wolfishly,

The honest,

Wanderer
wand...@ticnet.com

"Where am I going? I don't quite know.
What does it matter *where* people go?
Down to the woods where the bluebells grow!
Anywhere! Anywhere! *I* don't know!"
-- a. a. milne


BR

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Aug 18, 2005, 10:41:38 AM8/18/05
to
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 02:07:42 -0500, Wanderer wrote:

> If the only car you could buy got 5 mpg, would you still walk?

Considering we're the most obese nation. Would that be a bad thing? Anyway
there are choices, and yes "doing without" is one of those choices.
Complaining you have no choices when what you really mean is that you
(generic you) don't want to make a difficult decisions only ends up making
the situation worse.

Message has been deleted

Samantha, the Green Nose

unread,
Aug 18, 2005, 12:30:54 PM8/18/05
to
You know, when I was 3, my mother told me: Two wrongs don't make a right.
I thought every small child was told that.

Face it. You're not Robin Hood, you're some pudgy loser preying on other
losers. You'd look real bad in tights.

Of course, one could argue that you don't pirate my art, so why should I
care? To be honest, the only real reason is that I don't care to share
my moral high-ground with a cheap imposter like you.

Personally, I own licensed and registered copies of Photoshop, Illustrator,
After Effects, Premiere, Flash, Toon Boom, Maya, GarageBand, iMovie, my
OS, and on down the line. I listen to music I've purchased on CD or
shoutcast streams, and the only 'pirate' movie I have is 'The Wizard of
Speed and Time', which I was given express permission by the filmmaker
to bootleg.

So get off my rock and crawl back under it. You bore me, you tedious
drama queen. I could really care less about who's artwork makes you
jerk off.


In article <1123795459.2...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Sibe Husky <evil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Downloading photoshop to make furry art : Ok
>
>Downloading mp3s to enjoy while making furry art: Ok
>
>Downloading furry movies to watch while making furry art: Ok
>
>Downloading the furry art that has been made with pirated software,
>while listening to pirated music and watching pirated movies: Not Ok?
>
>That what its sounding like around here.
>
>Plus I move that I am withdrawing all my support from all of the furry
>conventions in the *WORLD* because you all have banned me! How dare you
>ban me! I am going to make sure to remove ALL of my ads from your
>filthy con books and I will NEVER buy a dealers table again.
>
>The world will never be regaled by the likes of SIBE XXX ISSUE 1
>
>BECAUSE IM KEEPING ALL MY FURRY ART TO MYSELF SO YOU GUYS CANT PIRATE
>IT!
>
>See... dont cha feel sorry now?
>


Patrick Elliott

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Aug 18, 2005, 10:53:12 PM8/18/05
to
In article <pan.2005.08.18...@comcast.net>,
brodr...@comcast.net says...
The point Wanderer 'failed' to mention is that the number of people that
even realize that the version they are getting is a poor imitation is
probably less than 1% of the people that buy it. Back when saying Anime
got you, "Huh? What's that?", *everyone* knew the difference. Now you are
likely to find 1 person in a room of 200 that has a clue that anything is
missing, that someone painted clothes on characters to let them show it
on Cartoon Network, that some episodes are missing entirely or that the
dialog is completely wrong. Hell, I know they do this and even I can't
tell most of the time, unless they mangle it so badly that even the
English is unintelligible or someone tells me. Its like having someone
tell me they are going to sell me a Porshe and throw in a Rolex, only to
get a VB Bug and a Casio, but with the shells of the original car and
watch on them.

If 99.5% of the people buying it don't know they are getting screwed,
what incentive do companies have to stop screwing them?

iBuck

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Aug 18, 2005, 11:03:52 PM8/18/05
to

Patrick Elliott wrote:
> In article <1124285159.5...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> lncra...@aol.com says...
> > > Yes, this is something others are falsely assuming about the anime music
> > > I have. The sight I get it from *only* carries anime music from companies
> > > that have expressed that they do not care if it is shared or encourage
> > > it.
> >
> > If it's a false assumption, you've encouraged it along

> Its not a false assumption though.

Um, you see your quote up there? You said people were making "false
assuptions", now you're saying it's -not- a false assuption?

In the end... If you download something -legally- I really don't care,
but if it's illegal download, even if you buy it later, I'll still
criticize it...

Patrick Elliott

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Aug 18, 2005, 11:18:24 PM8/18/05
to
Sorry about the double post. Stupid client apparently managed to send it
'while' I was re-editing it. :(

Patrick Elliott

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Aug 18, 2005, 11:16:52 PM8/18/05
to
In article <5c48g1hqneg4vbv01...@4ax.com>, wulf...@dm.net
says...

> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:12:59 -0700, Patrick Elliott
> <shado...@hotmail.com> declaimed the following in alt.fan.furry:

>
>
> > was in 1995 or so. There was no sign of them 'ever' re-releasing it at
> > that time. I see the same thing happen with books. Maybe in the next 4-5
> > years I *might* see more than half of C.J. Cherryh's books I don't have
> > re-released, but the last time they published most of them was in the
> > 1970s. Normal people don't have 30 years to wait for some moron to decide
> > that, "yes, in fact we 'will' sell you a copy of that."
> >
> In the case of C.J., you would have a good chance of that... As I
> recall, she was a guest at some convention a few years ago (FurCon1?)
> and stated something to the effect that her contracts are that, if the
> primary publisher lets it go out of print, she has the right to shop the
> book to the secondary publisher market
>
Odd then that most of her books in several series 'are'. Some have since
been reprinted, but a few, like The Faded Sun series, get republished in
a compilation. Which is fine, if you pay close enough attention to know
they are (though I would still prefer the original books separate). I
have at least 2-3 times bought a book without looking closely, only to
realize after that it was a recompilation of several other books. C.J.
Cherryh however is an exception to the rule. There are some I never got
all books in a series or lost some during moves (thankfully not many),
that I literally can't find anymore.

And even with C.J.'s, this (amazon.com):

List Price: $15.95
Price: $10.85 and eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping on orders over
$25. See details
You Save: $5.10 (32%)

Is their idea of a reprint.

I can probably buy one with the original art, which matches the ones I
already have for $0.70 to $1.00, 'most' paperback I buy new are at worst
$9, with the majority being $7 or less. The Faded Sun compilation was
only 'maybe' $9, not $16. Someone needs to explain to these people that
the printing press was invented in 1450 and technological advances are
supposed to 'decrease' prices... In the last 10 years the price on books
has doubled, at least.

Frankly, its almost scary to think what the price of music would be by
now, or movies, if the same trend was true in those media. Though, I
suppose theatre prices 'have' gone that way in most places. You could
probably build your own theatre, and buy thousands of used DVDs to show
in it, for less than they expect you to pay to see every movie that comes
out in one year. But books are just getting ridiculous. While I admit
'part' of the reason I don't get as many now has to do with not having
the money anymore to buy anything I want, I collected over 1000 books
(many gotten by my parents though) in maybe 15 years before, in the last
10, I have bought maybe 50. Hmm.. Which would make them more profit....
lol That I might, if I had the money, look like a male version of Yamiko
Readman from Read or Die, is hardly important, right? ;)

Patrick Elliott

unread,
Aug 18, 2005, 11:33:13 PM8/18/05