Top Ten Things Heard At ConFurence 7
Timothy D Fay
jaz...@netcom9.netcom.com wrote:
> Next year I think I'll write a Newbies Guide to art shows..
Considering how the CF arshow has been run in the past, I would not
reccomend that you start labeling others as "newbies."
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Conrad Wong
Timothy D Fay <fayx...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>jaz...@netcom9.netcom.com wrote:
>> Next year I think I'll write a Newbies Guide to art shows..
>Considering how the CF arshow has been run in the past, I would not
>reccomend that you start labeling others as "newbies."
Well, mileage varies, but honestly I think that Jazmyn's thought has a
lot of merit, and trying to intimate that her running of the art show is
in some way 'newbie-ish' belittles both the difficulty of the task and
the success with which the art show has been executed. It furthermore
seems like discouragement against writing what should be a fairly nice and
handy pamphlet for art show bidders... I bet there're furry artists out
there who wouldn't mind contributing a bit of art to make it more
attractive, in the name of increasing interest in art show purchases.
There have been problems, to be sure -- but you can't lay them all on
Jazmyn's shoulders, she has to work with limited resources and it's hard
to get people to volunteer for the art show.
-- Lynx
--
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Timothy D Fay
ly...@netcom.com (Conrad Wong) wrote:
>
> In article <4ecbdj$e...@epx.cis.umn.edu>,
> Timothy D Fay <fayx...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
> >jaz...@netcom9.netcom.com wrote:
>
> >> Next year I think I'll write a Newbies Guide to art shows..
>
> >Considering how the CF arshow has been run in the past, I would not
> >reccomend that you start labeling others as "newbies."
>
> Well, mileage varies, but honestly I think that Jazmyn's thought has a
> lot of merit, and trying to intimate that her running of the art show is
> in some way 'newbie-ish' belittles both the difficulty of the task and
As you probably know, Lynx, the term "newbie," like "fanboy" and
"mundane," is rarely a term of endearment. At the very least, saying
that the fans need a "Newbies Guide" to artshows belittles them and
suggests a certain amount of arrogance on the part of the author.
But I agree that running the CF artshow must be a difficult task.
That might explain why the Sunday auction lasted nearly three hours
and why both artists and fans had to wait another hour or more in
order to pick up their art. Does this constitute a "success?"
As you say, mileage varies...
--
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Jazmyn Concolor
>Timothy D Fay (fayx...@maroon.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
>
>
>: But I agree that running the CF artshow must be a difficult task.
>: That might explain why the Sunday auction lasted nearly three hours
>: and why both artists and fans had to wait another hour or more in
>: order to pick up their art. Does this constitute a "success?"
>: As you say, mileage varies...
>
>Sunday auction, I have to say this: we finished 15 minutes BEFORE we were
>scheduled to. ALSO, we were clearing out the last of the art which didn't
>get auctioned off from the Sat auction BEFORE the ones supposed to be
>done on Sun. We did run a little slow, yes, but we stepped it up as fast
>as we could. Lycan and Kierne were a bit faster than I was, yes, but I
>also stepped up my pace as well. Considering we finished before we were
>supposed to and that we cleared out of the room fast, I think it went
>rather well."
>
>"Also, there is a change of guard, as it were, in the directors of the
>artshow. Jazmine no longer runs it, Vicky does (no, not Wyman. I cant'
Her name is Vicky Levitin and she has been the Ast Art Show director in
the past. I act as art show director up till and after the con, but Vicky
was the Art Show director DURING the con, thus taking some of the weight
off my shoulders, since I also had to deal with the hotel while Mark was gone
and I helped Vicky keep the art show rolling as well. I rounded up volunteers
and generaly put out brush fires all weekend.. Sherri Mount was the official
ast art show director this year and did a great job helping get the panels
set up when I was stuck doing last minute work/errands and had to direct by
phone till Vicky got off of work and could take over.
>remember her last name darnit). So some shifting and settling into a new
>director is to be expected. From what I heard, the show ran rather
>smoothly and from what I saw at the auction, Vicky was on the ball in
>marking down what piece went for what, keeping one step ahead of the
>auctioneer. I also have to give the runners at the auction a good pat on
>the back for keeping things running smoothly as well, keeping up with
>Vicky and the auctioneers."
>
>Chewing on the cord to her headphones thoughtfully, she reads over her
>post. "Some things went wrong, yes, but I think overall it went rather
>well. This is just IMHO and based on what I saw and experienced."
Little things always seem to go wrong, but we are getting better at predicting
what might go wrong and preparing for it.
>
>TTFN!
>
> Tygger!
>--
>**********************************************************************
>tyg...@netcom.com
>
>"And I ain't in it for the power
> And I ain't it for my health
> I ain't in it for the glory of anything at all
> And I sure ain't in it for the wealth
> But I'm in it till it's over and I just can't stop
> If you wanna get it done
> You got to fight for yourself...."
>
>"Everything Louder Than Everything Else" Meat Loaf: Bat Out of Hell 2
Richard Chandler
Exactly. I mean, is it insulting that I wrote the Sketchbook Etiquette
Guide? (Well, at least I didn't put newbie in it anywhere).
Frankly, there are a lot of areas in Fandom that could use FAQs. The
fandom is growing so quickly that it's not possible to give everyone the
individual attention to integrate them into the fandom that they need.
(By the way, I think the flame war a while ago about personal hygene at
conventions actually had a positive effect at CFE and CF7.)
--
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off the bat if you're an idiot! -- Me
<a href="http://www.teleport.com/~mauser/"> Gallery Web Page </a>
Mail to <mau...@teleport.com> forwarded to <mau...@claris.com>
Tygger
: But I agree that running the CF artshow must be a difficult task.
: That might explain why the Sunday auction lasted nearly three hours
: and why both artists and fans had to wait another hour or more in
: order to pick up their art. Does this constitute a "success?"
: As you say, mileage varies...
Shaking her head, the tigress sighs. "As one of the auctioneers at the
Sunday auction, I have to say this: we finished 15 minutes BEFORE we were
scheduled to. ALSO, we were clearing out the last of the art which didn't
get auctioned off from the Sat auction BEFORE the ones supposed to be
done on Sun. We did run a little slow, yes, but we stepped it up as fast
as we could. Lycan and Kierne were a bit faster than I was, yes, but I
also stepped up my pace as well. Considering we finished before we were
supposed to and that we cleared out of the room fast, I think it went
rather well."
"Also, there is a change of guard, as it were, in the directors of the
artshow. Jazmine no longer runs it, Vicky does (no, not Wyman. I cant'
remember her last name darnit). So some shifting and settling into a new
director is to be expected. From what I heard, the show ran rather
smoothly and from what I saw at the auction, Vicky was on the ball in
marking down what piece went for what, keeping one step ahead of the
auctioneer. I also have to give the runners at the auction a good pat on
the back for keeping things running smoothly as well, keeping up with
Vicky and the auctioneers."
Chewing on the cord to her headphones thoughtfully, she reads over her
post. "Some things went wrong, yes, but I think overall it went rather
well. This is just IMHO and based on what I saw and experienced."
TTFN!
Peter da Silva
In article <4eebsv$d...@epx.cis.umn.edu>,
Timothy D Fay <fayx...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>As you probably know, Lynx, the term "newbie," like "fanboy" and
>"mundane," is rarely a term of endearment.
Do you get upset about books like "Juggling for the complete klutz",
"Big Dummy's guide to MS-DOS", or "Macintosh for idiots"?
Steve Gattuso
>But I agree that running the CF artshow must be a difficult task.
>That might explain why the Sunday auction lasted nearly three hours
>and why both artists and fans had to wait another hour or more in
>order to pick up their art. Does this constitute a "success?"
>As you say, mileage varies...
In comparison with the events of CF6, it was a _massive_ success. I
remember quite well that the line for the art at _that_ con took far
longer, and the staff were there much later than this year. There were
more staff this year taking payment on work, and more help in getting
things done in general. [I even helped a little myself that Sunday
morning.]
Keep well in mind the sheer _quantity_ of work to be done at the end
of the show. I don't have the figures, but I would not be at all
surprised if the number of pieces displayed topped 1000 with ease. And
at CF, the percentage of work sold is way over half of what ends up on
display. For a standard retailer to move that much 'product' [we must
give some sop to the merchantilism of the event] in so short a time would
be considered _very_ impressive indeed.
And while the _buyers_ did have to wait for some time to get their
purchases, I can say with confidence that the _artists_ were usually able
to gather up their unsold items in 15 minutes or less, depending on how
much they had left to pick up.
So yes, the art show from these standpoints was _extremely_
successful. And if planning for next year proceeds apace, it may get
even faster.
Karl Meyers
>Timothy D Fay (fayx...@maroon.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
>
>: But I agree that running the CF artshow must be a difficult task.
>: That might explain why the Sunday auction lasted nearly three hours
>: and why both artists and fans had to wait another hour or more in
>: order to pick up their art. Does this constitute a "success?"
>: As you say, mileage varies...
>
>post. "Some things went wrong, yes, but I think overall it went
>rather well. This is just IMHO and based on what I saw and
>experienced."
I thought the auction on Sunday went fairly well, from what I saw.
Now, the line to pick up art...oy! My poor feet! :)
Most SF cons tend to have somewhat long lines for picking up art show
artwork. The only thing I can think of for CF's show is better
organization in getting won artwork sorted (it seemed to me the
volunteers were looking pell-mell for bidder numbers...), and maybe a
larger area to operate the pickup.
KFM!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Karl F. Meyers | kme...@ix.netcom.com | Furry Writer at Large
Jacksonville, Florida | Go Jaguars! |(Haven't caught me yet!)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeux sans frontieres
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Terry Whittier
Nope. I was assaulted more times this year than any other, by the odor
of someone who needed more than a little attention to person hygene. And
I'm not talking under-arm. Lower.
Yuk.
--
---------------------------------------------------------
From whit...@netcom.com (Terry Whittier in San Jose, CA)
---------------------------------------------------------
Any problem, no matter how small or subtle, can be
overcome with a sufficient application of brute force
and dogged persistance.
---------------------------------------------------------
Terry Whittier
: jaz...@netcom9.netcom.com wrote:
:
: > Next year I think I'll write a Newbies Guide to art shows..
: Considering how the CF arshow has been run in the past, I would not
: reccomend that you start labeling others as "newbies."
Your comment is out of line. Actually, the artshow has been running
rather well. Especially considering THE LACK OF VOLUNTEERS.
If you are going to take shots at the art show, please be specific and
CONSTRUCTIVE.
Terry Whittier
: In article <4ecbdj$e...@epx.cis.umn.edu>,
: Timothy D Fay <fayx...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
: >jaz...@netcom9.netcom.com wrote:
: >> Next year I think I'll write a Newbies Guide to art shows..
: >Considering how the CF arshow has been run in the past, I would not
: >reccomend that you start labeling others as "newbies."
: Well, mileage varies, but honestly I think that Jazmyn's thought has a
: lot of merit, and trying to intimate that her running of the art show is
: in some way 'newbie-ish' belittles both the difficulty of the task and
: the success with which the art show has been executed. It furthermore
You are missing the point. The art show actually runs rather well
(especially considering the lack of volunteers). The point here is the
sharing of experience and knowledge.
Lighten up.
Terry Whittier
People are jumping to conclusions and putting words in other people's
mouths. Lots of examples of posting before thinking.
How about CONSTRUCTIVE criticism?
Let's stay away from who implied what about whom.
D.J. Green
Terry Whittier <whit...@netcom.com> wrote:
>Timothy D Fay (fayx...@maroon.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
>: jaz...@netcom9.netcom.com wrote:
>:
>: > Next year I think I'll write a Newbies Guide to art shows..
>
>: Considering how the CF arshow has been run in the past, I would not
>: reccomend that you start labeling others as "newbies."
>
>rather well. Especially considering THE LACK OF VOLUNTEERS.
> If you are going to take shots at the art show, please be specific and
>CONSTRUCTIVE.
Okay, then, I do have a couple of comments to make:
1) If volunteers are needed so badly, have things ready for them to do when
they come in and volunteer. When I volunteered to help out with the art
show, during the final auction, it took about half an hour before I
ended up with something to do besides wander around and look for
something to do.
2) Communicate with each other, both staff and volunteers. Part of
communication is *listening*. I spent about 5 minutes waiting while the
person who was supposed to be handling my 'order' in the pickup line
looked for someone else's art, while the person handling the 'someone
else's' case said three or four times that it wasn't necessary any more.
I hope that was just an extraordinary case, because if it wasn't, I can
see why people would get impatient.
3) People in line: have as much as you can ready when you get to the
counter to pick up your art. If you're using traveler's checks, sign
approximately (estimating conservatively) as much as you need before you
get to the counter (you certainly have enough time in line). People
writing checks, have them filled out except for the amount. People with
cash, have it accessible and ordered enough to find easily. Etc.
--
Call the Physics Friends Helpline!
Find out about your special density!
PeterCat
>1) If volunteers are needed so badly, have things ready for them to do when
> they come in and volunteer. When I volunteered to help out with the art
> show, during the final auction, it took about half an hour before I
> ended up with something to do besides wander around and look for
> something to do.
Although it's nice that you offered to help, it's better to volunteer early
in the con -- so that the people running the staff have time to get to know
you, to know what you're skilled at, with what you're willing to do, etc.
Things are just too confused during the big push at the end of the con.
By far, the best way to speed up the sales line is to have more *skilled*
people -- those who can sort and organize, who can do the paperwork and
handle money. But at cons where I've volunteered, you learn to do those
things *before* the final auction and sale. About the only place to use an
unskilled (or unknown-skilled) person who volunteers at the last minute is
as part of the "wall" that clears out the art show when it closes.
--
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Tanan
The CF(w) art show is by far one of the best selling shows in all of
fandom...because of this, the lines can be long...however because you the
buyers keep buying...etc.
This is VERY good for all of the artist involved...it keeps them and you
coming back for more...Sooooooo...lets keep being patient in the lines and
to thank to art show staff for their time too!!
Jeff Ferris
Editor/Publisher
YARF!
Roz Gibson
Just for the record, I thought the artshow went fine this year. The staff at
set-up time Thursday night was helpfull and perky, and I had no trouble
picking up my unsold stuff. Don't EVEN ask how that compared to the nightmare
I had at the SDCC art show last year. I'm not gonna be putting in anything in
that show this year, which should give you a clue...
Terry Whittier
: In comparison with the events of CF6, it was a _massive_ success. I
: remember quite well that the line for the art at _that_ con took far
: longer, and the staff were there much later than this year. There were
Careful -- your measurement may be highly subjective. I know that the
people who worked art pick-up at CF6 worked very hard and moved people
through pretty quickly. There may have simply been more INDIVIDUALS in
the line last year, or you may have been farther back in the line with
the time weighing more heavily on you than this year.
I worked behind the table at the art pick-up last year, and I can
attest that we did things to be sure to move people through as fast as we
could. One of the things we did was to find out who was picking up art
BEFORE they got to the table, so we could start pulling out the art
without people standing in front of the table just waiting for their art
to be brought up. After the first few people, we almost always had the
next person's art waiting for THEM at the table.
Kay Shapero
k>show
k>artwork. The only thing I can think of for CF's show is better
k>organization in getting won artwork sorted (it seemed to me the
k>volunteers were looking pell-mell for bidder numbers...), and
k>maybe a larger area to operate the pickup.
TIME is the culpret there - we had to set up for pickup a couple of hours
before the auction was finished, so stuff was being brought in DURING
pickup. The other stuff was sorted before the room opened (I was one of
the volunteers doing the sorting), it just wasn't bagged so you still had
to take the time to make sure you had every piece for that number. And of
course sculpture and Big Cloth Thingies like those rugs and the t-shirts
couldn't be put in boxes either and had to be picked up individually.
Frankly I begin to doubt the wisdom of opening the Art Show on Sunday at
all. It's only open for a few hours, and given the time between the
previous day's closing and pickup it would be possible to not only sort,
but bag and invoice everything...
--
|Fidonet: Kay Shapero 1:102/524
|Internet: Kay.S...@f524.n102.z1.fidonet.org
|
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.
Pholos Pegasus
: >1) If volunteers are needed so badly, have things ready for them to do when
: > they come in and volunteer. When I volunteered to help out with the art
: > show, during the final auction, it took about half an hour before I
: > ended up with something to do besides wander around and look for
: > something to do.
My experience was a little bit more depressing. I volunteered to pose for the
sketching workshop on both Saturday and Sunday. Saturday was alright -
somewhat disorganized, but no worse than anything else run by Furries. Sunday
I showed up on time, along with one or two prospective artists (Juan DeLara
sticks in my mind, but I forget the others), and no-one ever came to conduct
the event. Not a convention-ruiner by any means, but a bit annoying, and a
waste of my time and the artists.
**********************************
NarniaMUSH II @ arcana.power.net 4201
G-rated Furry Fun!
**********************************
Steve Gattuso
> Careful -- your measurement may be highly subjective. I know that the
>people who worked art pick-up at CF6 worked very hard and moved people
>through pretty quickly. There may have simply been more INDIVIDUALS in
>the line last year, or you may have been farther back in the line with
>the time weighing more heavily on you than this year.
I've been a staffer at CF for the past four cons. Subjective, my
fuzzy kerfuffle! The planning that went into the show this year finally
paid off, as things moved along far faster than I would have hoped.
> I worked behind the table at the art pick-up last year, and I can
>attest that we did things to be sure to move people through as fast as >we could. One of the things we did was to find out who was =
picking up >art BEFORE they got to the table, so we could start pulling out the art
>without people standing in front of the table just waiting for their art
>to be brought up. After the first few people, we almost always had the
>next person's art waiting for THEM at the table.
Yes, that would have been better. But we had more cashier's
positions this year, so things were mitigated a bit. Next year. we just
do both...
Timothy D Fay
>fayx...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Timothy D Fay) wrote:
>>But I agree that running the CF artshow must be a difficult task.
>>That might explain why the Sunday auction lasted nearly three hours
>>and why both artists and fans had to wait another hour or more in
>>order to pick up their art. Does this constitute a "success?"
>>As you say, mileage varies...
> In comparison with the events of CF6, it was a _massive_ success...
Well, I supposed that in comparison to CF6, the '94 earthquake was a
massive success. If you're going to compare it to other furry cons,
that's one thing. But compared to other cons, in general, the CF
artshow leaves a lot to be desired. For example, I've had less trouble
getting my art into and out of the Worldcon artshow than at ConFurence
(and I had less trouble dealing with the Worldcon staff than I have had
with a certain "former" CF artshow directors). For a convention that
claims to be mostly about art, it certainly treats artists rather poorly.
>...I
>remember quite well that the line for the art at _that_ con took far
>longer, and the staff were there much later than this year. There were
>more staff this year taking payment on work, and more help in getting
>things done in general. [I even helped a little myself that Sunday
>morning.]
After I hung my pieces at CF6 I then offered to help hang up other pieces.
And when I saw I had space left over on my panels, I gave it up to another
artist without being asked to do so. But when I asked if I could check
out my pieces on Sunday morning (because I had a plane to catch at 1pm)
I was told, effectively, "tough sh*t." Not in those _exact_ words, but
pretty close to them. Now, I realize the staffers are under a lot of
pressure during the con. But I don't think that anyone should expect that
kind of treatment, especially from one of the CF directors.
> Keep well in mind the sheer _quantity_ of work to be done at the end
>of the show...
That's really no excuse. If there's a lot of work to be done at the end
of the show, then either get more volunteers or hire people to do the job.
Based on my experience with the previous CF artshow director, I'm not too
surprised that they have a hard time finding volunteers. Hiring people
shouldn't be a problem, either; even at the 10% commission rate the con
should have more than enough money to pull that off.
>...For a standard retailer to move that much 'product' [we must
>give some sop to the merchantilism of the event] in so short a time would
>be considered _very_ impressive indeed.
That's a whole other issue, i.e., the rampant mercantilism of furry fandom.
Basically, if you're not an artist or a dealer, you're nobody. All you
get for your $30 CF membership is a program book and a badge. Now, if you
contribute $100 and become a "super sponsor," well, that's different...
Fortunately, I go to CF to visit with friends I don't otherwise get to
see during the year; most of the convention "events" were a wash, and
everything else (the Pizza Feed, the Cabaret) costs _extra_.
> And while the _buyers_ did have to wait for some time to get their
>purchases, I can say with confidence that the _artists_ were usually able
>to gather up their unsold items in 15 minutes or less, depending on how
>much they had left to pick up.
That was not the case. Some friends of mine in waited in line for over
an hour on Sunday night to pick up their unsold work. Maybe they were
in the wrong line. Even if it was the case, it is very unreasonable to
make the buyers wait through a 3-hour auction only to wait another 1-2
hours to fork over their money. Again, considering how much money the
con makes on the artshow alone, one would think they could do a little
better.
c.groark
>D.M. "Quozl" Falk (qu...@netcom.com) wrote:
>
> An easier way still.
>
> Raise the number of bids that causes a piece to go to auction. 4 or 5
>isn't enough. Set it to 8 or 10. In addition, open the auction
That's has been tried at a lot of SF conventions here on the East Coast.
It doesn't always work.
Why? Some artists know that they get the best dollar return per sale if
the piece goes to voice auction. Therefore, the higher the number of
bids it takes to auction, the LOWER their minimum bid.
They are taking the chance that the piece will get to auction or, failing
that, it makes enough on the panel to hit the artist's expected return.
Sometimes it backfires on the artist and they don't make as much as they
would like. Often, however, the pieces do end up in the voice auction.
Sometimes you end up with as many or MORE pieces at auction because of
this. Many of us on the East Coast refer to this as "The Boskone Gambit."
Charlie
k...@mcs.com
> I'm going to suggest a radical approach to the Art Show/Auction.
>
> Dump the auction.
> No auctions either on Saturday or Sunday, period... It seems to me the
> auction process seems to be the heart of the problem here...
>
The main problem with this is a lot of the fans like the auction and the artists definately do. The final selling price of most
auctioned pieces is well above the last bid on the bidding sheet as people tend to bid on pieces they hadn't at the art show. I
can also see the madhouse that the art show would become if you did this. I wouldn't be suprised to see 6 or even 7 bids
required to send a piece to acution next year but there will still be pieces that will get that many and the auction is the fairest way
to see that popular pieces are sold for the highest price and that everyone who wants to at least gets a chance at them. I
believe I've said that I think those people buying at the auction should be able to pay for their art there, thus avoiding a second
move for all of it.
Matt Henry
: Matt Henry (ban...@netaxs.com) wrote:
: : Raise the number of bids that causes a piece to go to auction. 4 or 5
: That's twice as much as any other artshow, and would guarantee that the
: only pieces that made it were by the absolute best (or best beloved). It
: wouldn't be worth my time and expense, or the time and expense of half
: the people who enter, to shell out the bucks and go through the trouble.
: Might as well stick with local conventions --- where I'm reasonably well
: known, and actually have a few fans who buy my work regularly --- than
: try for an unheard-of 8-10 bids!
Think of it this way. The bids are going to be taken, either way.
If it takes 4 bids to send a piece to auction, and 10 more bids to sell
it off *in* the auction, then the extra 4 blanks for bids cuts down on
the people who would only be taking up time during auction.
Another scenerio. A piece gets the 4 bids to send it to auction.
In the auction, it takes about 4 minutes to introduce the piece, and sell
it off, in 3 more bids. If there was a larger "go to auction" ceiling,
most of the bid-fighting that tends to slow and lag auctions would be
eliminated. If that scenerio ran even ten times, that's 40 minutes being
cut off the auction.
All this proposal says is to keep more of the bidding in the art
show, rather than in the auction, cutting down on time.
:
:
: : IT also didn't help that we had to be
: : out of the dealer's room promply at six. Either close the show, and start
: : the auction earlier (after all, if they're defending their bids, let them
: : take a little initiative to defend them by getting up a bit earlier.) or
: : keep the dealer's room open a bit more, so the "after the auctions"
: : actually have a chance to come back, and not find the dealer's room closed.
:
: Again, I agree. It seems more a matter of timing what opens and closes
: when, rather than rearrange the whole schmeer.
:
:
True. But think about it. Fans A, B, and C are all vying for a
piece. Does it matter if they out-bid eachother on paper, during the art
show (and possibly eliminate one of the bidders before the art auction),
or by using stall tactics and slowing the auction down?
The Green Fox
> Raise the number of bids that causes a piece to go to auction. 4 or 5
> isn't enough. Set it to 8 or 10.
I remember the first time San Diego set the number of bids to set a piece to Auction as 7.
All that happens is a person gets someone else to alternate bids with him at $1 increments so that
his winds up being the last one.
Alternatively you wind up with art vultures, and the con staff has to forcibly (and I mean
that) eject people when the room closes for the last time, and stop the people who will run around
the staff, under panels and whatever to get back to the piece they wanted long enough to add
another bid.
There is no easy answer. If you have a big art show, you will have a big auction. All you
can do is be very prepared and efficient in order to deal with it, and have enough people to make
it work.
Dale Farmer
: On <Jan 29 00:19>, kme...@ix.netcom.com (1:133/2611) wrote to All:
: k>show
: k>artwork. The only thing I can think of for CF's show is better
: k>organization in getting won artwork sorted (it seemed to me the
: k>volunteers were looking pell-mell for bidder numbers...), and
: k>maybe a larger area to operate the pickup.
: TIME is the culpret there - we had to set up for pickup a couple of hours
: before the auction was finished, so stuff was being brought in DURING
: pickup. The other stuff was sorted before the room opened (I was one of
: the volunteers doing the sorting), it just wasn't bagged so you still had
: to take the time to make sure you had every piece for that number. And of
: course sculpture and Big Cloth Thingies like those rugs and the t-shirts
: couldn't be put in boxes either and had to be picked up individually.
: Frankly I begin to doubt the wisdom of opening the Art Show on Sunday at
: all. It's only open for a few hours, and given the time between the
: previous day's closing and pickup it would be possible to not only sort,
: but bag and invoice everything...
Now let me ask a question here. You have the staff go and take
down *all* the artwork. Sort it for auction/sold to bidder#/unsold, and
then let the buyers and artists come and pickup and pay for their
respective piles of artwork? At the same time the staff is taking down
the panels, and running the cash/check/credit card operation??
No wonder things take forever. All the art shows I have worked
on, (Arisia/Boskone/Lunacon/Balticon/Disclave/worldcons/Philcon) we just
leave the art on the panels, set up a set of checkout tables on the way
out the door, and buyers go and get the art they won, pickup the art they
won at auction, and pay on the way out the door. Artists go and take
down their own art, pack it up and remove it, checking it out with the
art show clerk as unsold. The sales process is usually scheduled to
start about 30-60 minutes before the scheduled end of the auction. This
allows buyers who have nothing going to auction to get in before the
crunch to pickup and pay for their stuff. Artists to get in and pickup
and checkout their unsold stuff before the crunch. About an hour after
the auction ends the majority of the art is out of the show, and the
staff can start taking down panels and packing up the mail-in art that
hadn't sold. By the time another hour has gone by, any pieces that are
still left had probably been forgotton or lost. The one remaining person
sits with a cashbox and the leftover art handling the trickle of late
people picking up their art.
This system has evolved over more years than I care to remember,
and is the pattern that the east coast art show crew run art shows at the
above list of cons. We (Gay-Ellen actually) are also doing the worldcon
artshow in LA this year. Come and help out, and watch what we do, and
ask us why we do things that way. Learn from our *years and years* of
mistakes.
Peter-Kat, did I forget anything major?
--Dale
--
Everything I said is subject to debate and correction. This is a
personal account, so I don't have to stick in something about covering my
employers ass. Unless of course it is billable, in which case they will
be glad to claim responsibility.
Jazmyn Concolor
Not all worldcons leave the stuff up. And a large number of cons don't
either..This is why..
Far too many people forget what they bid on and fail to pick up all their
pieces from the panels. Letting a lot of people wander around looking for
their art is an added sercurity risk with the artists trying to remove their
art at the same time. It takes *forever* for people to find all their art,
even if they did remember to keep track of what they bid on.
>leave the art on the panels, set up a set of checkout tables on the way
>out the door, and buyers go and get the art they won, pickup the art they
>won at auction, and pay on the way out the door. Artists go and take
>down their own art, pack it up and remove it, checking it out with the
>art show clerk as unsold. The sales process is usually scheduled to
>start about 30-60 minutes before the scheduled end of the auction. This
>allows buyers who have nothing going to auction to get in before the
>crunch to pickup and pay for their stuff. Artists to get in and pickup
>and checkout their unsold stuff before the crunch. About an hour after
>the auction ends the majority of the art is out of the show, and the
This may work at a show where 20-100 pieces sell, but we have as many as
800 pieces sell at one art show. The lines to pay are filled with 200+
buyers that are being processed as fast as posible by four people. The
sorting beforehand accualy speeds things up and panels were taken down long
before all the art was picked up and everything was ready to clear out.
We stayed till 10pm this time because that was about as late as the hotel
would let us stay. A number of people came to pick up their stuff just
before 10, since they had gone out to dinner to avoid the early lines.
>staff can start taking down panels and packing up the mail-in art that
>hadn't sold. By the time another hour has gone by, any pieces that are
>still left had probably been forgotton or lost. The one remaining person
>sits with a cashbox and the leftover art handling the trickle of late
>people picking up their art.
> This system has evolved over more years than I care to remember,
>and is the pattern that the east coast art show crew run art shows at the
>above list of cons. We (Gay-Ellen actually) are also doing the worldcon
>artshow in LA this year. Come and help out, and watch what we do, and
>ask us why we do things that way. Learn from our *years and years* of
>mistakes.
I watched ConFrancisco and that was enough...No sercurity, badly designed
canvas panels that the art kept falling off of...No thanks..I'd rather not
have pieces vanish or be dammaged by following that example.
Mark Ashworth
: Matt Henry wrote:
Green Fox, please check your Usenet reader to see if you can wordwrap at
75 characters. Many of your sentances went off the right edge of the
page, making reading and responding to you difficult.
Mark Ashworth
: > qu...@netcom.com (D.M. "Quozl" Falk) writes:
: > I'm going to suggest a radical approach to the Art Show/Auction.
: >
: > Dump the auction.
: > No auctions either on Saturday or Sunday, period... It seems to me the
: > auction process seems to be the heart of the problem here...
: >
: The main problem with this is a lot of the fans like the auction and the artists definately do. The final selling price of most
: auctioned pieces is well above the last bid on the bidding sheet as people tend to bid on pieces they hadn't at the art show. I
: can also see the madhouse that the art show would become if you did this. I wouldn't be suprised to see 6 or even 7 bids
: required to send a piece to acution next year but there will still be pieces that will get that many and the auction is the fairest way
: to see that popular pieces are sold for the highest price and that everyone who wants to at least gets a chance at them. I
: believe I've said that I think those people buying at the auction should be able to pay for their art there, thus avoiding a second
: move for all of it.
kwm@(etc), please set your Usenet reader to wordwrap at 75 characters.
Most of your responce was unavailable to me becuase the lines went strait
off the right edge of the page.
It makes reading and responding to you difficult.
k...@mcs.com
>
> : Dump the auction.
>
>
> Well, you'd speed up the process alright - an art show that had no
> auction in it at all will be an art show that has many fewer pieces in
> it. If you told the artist that there was no chance at all of their art
> going into an auction, and that the 8th, 9th, 10th, whatever bid would
> take the piece home, that artist is not going to put very much into the show.
>
I think the idea was that if there were no auction to have no max on the number of paper bids. Obviously this could get a bit
untenable with the really popular pieces since crowds of pen wielding furries would mob around them. The year this is tried will
be the year I skip the art show entirely (I promise it would only be tried once though).
Major Matt Mason
Heard At ConFurence 7:
KS> OTOH, it also means a mad scramble to get all the artwork off the
KS> walls and sorted in the two hours given before the sales window opens.
KS> The question becomes, is the chance for frenzied last minute bidding
KS> worth spending an extra half hour or more in the art sales line?
Seems to me that you've answered your own question: Simply push back the
opening of the window by an hour. In the case of a customer who has to make an
early plane, make separate arrangements to let them pick up their material
first (or mail it to them after the con).
-MMM-
--
|Fidonet: Major Matt Mason 1:273/952.1
|Internet: Major.Ma...@p1.f952.n273.z1.fidonet.org
Timothy D Fay
jaz...@netcom.com (Jazmyn Concolor) wrote:
>
> [comments deleted, but all are encouraged to go back and read them...]
All I can say is that I remember things very differently. But I want
to thank you for demonstrating precisely what I meant when I mentioned
the difficulties I've had in dealing with the CF artshow in the past.
>Several people complained about your bad behavior afterwards.
Could you be a little more specific? "Bad" as compared to what? Breaking
an expensive ashtray? Bringing a fake bomb and prompting a police raid?
Groping in the hallways? You know, something to benchmark this alleged
bad behavior against...
> You grabbed your art and took it out WITHOUT checking it out anyway..
> This nearly caused you to be banned from future art shows for refusing to
> follow the rules.
This is not the first time you've threatened to ban someone from all or
part of ConFurence, Jaz; in fact, you've done it several times over the
last couple of years. But even if you succeed in getting me banned for
the crime of laying claim to my own artwork, it is not likely to change
my opinion about the way you have run things.
> So..What do you do when you are not slandering CF directors with imagined
> insults you claim to have suffered? Even a worldcon would not have dropped
> everything during final bidding to cater to you and they have several times
> the staff a CF has. They would have treated you like you were crazy.
The last time I had art at Worldcon I simply took down my work, brought it
to the desk, and asked to be checked out. Since there were no bids pending
on my work, they checked me out. That wasn't a problem for Worldcon, so
why is it a problem with you? If you insist on equating criticism with
slander, then it's no wonder you have so many problems with the artshow...
Richard Chandler
A suggestion I had before was to have more blanks on the bid sheet than
just the number to go to auction. If it took six bids to go to auction,
but there were ten blanks on the sheet, that's four rounds of bidding
that can take place before the auction starts. (Heck, that's what the
whole bid sheet thing is, a sort of unmoderated auction.)
--
On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog... but they can tell right
off the bat if you're an idiot! -- Me
<a href="http://www.teleport.com/~mauser/"> Gallery Web Page </a>
Mail to <mau...@teleport.com> forwarded to <mau...@claris.com>
Kay Shapero
j> I was more frazzled from dealing with the hotel as the head
j>director for
j>the Radisson then I was dealing with the art show, which ran
j>smoothly enough
Maybe so, but you seemed to be surviving it better - last year when you
ran the entire shebang, I seem to recall having to order you to get some
rest more than once. And I doubt you did because by the end of the con
you had me wondering if calling the paramedics was in order... THIS year
you didn't look nearly as wasted by the end of the con.
Now, for the $65,000 question... are you running next year's art show, or
is Viky handling the whole thing. I've got some questions and some advice
collected from various folks I'd like to discuss with whoever is, to see
what's feasible and what isn't.
--
|Fidonet: Kay Shapero 1:102/524
|Internet: Kay.S...@f524.n102.z1.fidonet.org
|
Dale Farmer
PeterCat (pjka...@mailbox.syr.edu) wrote:
: [Posted and mailed]
: Recently in alt.fan.furry,
: >Dale Farmer <da...@cybercom.net> wrote:
: >jaz...@netcom.com (Jazmyn Concolor) wrote:
: > Far too many people forget what they bid on and fail to pick up all their
: >pieces from the panels. Letting a lot of people wander around looking for
: >their art is an added sercurity risk with the artists trying to remove their
Yes it is a security risk, solved by having the only way out that
people can use go right past a door guard who checks for recipts from
either the artist clerk or the sales clerk for everyone taking stuff
out. You already have the guard there anyway, why not make more
effective use of your staff.
: >art at the same time. It takes *forever* for people to find all their art,
: >even if they did remember to keep track of what they bid on.
On the back of the piece of paper with the bidding rules you
print a handy little table with spaces for the bidder to make note of
what pieces he/she bid on. And a buyer going and hunting down the peices
they won is a: not using up staff manhours picking up art and bringing it
to the sales table, b: not bitching and moaning about how f*cked up the
art show is while standing in a single long line.
: > This may work at a show where 20-100 pieces sell, but we have as many as
: >800 pieces sell at one art show. The lines to pay are filled with 200+
: >buyers that are being processed as fast as posible by four people. The
: >sorting beforehand accualy speeds things up and panels were taken down long
: >before all the art was picked up and everything was ready to clear out.
: Having worked some of the cons Dale mentioned, I do have to say I like the
: idea of sorting out the customers' purchases. But it does take a good deal of
: effort, and some skilled people. (At CFEast, some of the volunteers sorta
: had trouble with numerical order.)
And reading bidder numbers in some some of the worst handwriting
I have seen outside the hospital.
: ** The biggest bottleneck in the pay & pickup line is the number of people
: taking money. Double that, and it'll take only half as long to get through
: the line. But the trouble is, finding and training trustworthy people. It's
: not something that can be done with somebody who first volunteers at the
: con. Arisia is a con with perhaps half as many art pieces sold, and there
: are usually 6 to 8 people handling money.
Yes, CF being such an art oriented fandom, I suspect the
sell-through is a lot higher than at most regionals. So anything that
you can do to reduce the amount of staff time used for each sale is a
good thing. Most buyers are capable of filing out the tally sheet
themselves. Have a person with an adding machine check their arithmatic,
add the sales tax, if any, and check for legibility of the printing. You
have just saved hours of staff time for each buyer spending five minutes
doing something instead of standing in line and bitching.
: >>[Dale:]
: >> This system has evolved over more years than I care to remember,
: >>and is the pattern that the east coast art show crew run art shows at the
: >>above list of cons. We (Gay-Ellen actually) are also doing the worldcon
: >>artshow in LA this year. Come and help out, and watch what we do, and
: >>ask us why we do things that way. Learn from our *years and years* of
: >>mistakes.
: >[Jazmyn:]
: > I watched ConFrancisco and that was enough...No sercurity, badly designed
: >canvas panels that the art kept falling off of...No thanks..I'd rather not
: >have pieces vanish or be dammaged by following that example.
: I wasn't aware that ConFrancisco was held on the east coast... :) Obviously,
: each con is different, and a lot depends upon the interest and competence of
: the people running the art show. The art shows for many of the big regional
: cons on the east coast are now run by a group of artists and their spouses,
: children and friends, who got sick of the sort of mishaps Jazmyn describes
: at ConFrancisco, and volunteered themselves.
ConFiasco was called that for a reason. The person running that
show was not one of the northeast corridor art show folks. I think she
had done a lot of Westercons, but I am guessing here.
: As a result, at these cons, the panels are ruggedly constructed of metal
: pipe framing, supporting pegboard panels; the design has evolved over a
: number of years, and this has proven the most reliable and easy to erect and
: disassemble, while still being strong and durable. Security is overseen by a
: professional volunteer who does security for a living; and there's a
: volunteer who's a fireman, who checks for code violations *before* the Fire
: Marshal pays an unexpected visit and shuts things down. (Were all the aisles
: at your art show at least four feet wide, Jazmyn?) And sales and checkout
: run smoothly. All the customers (except for stragglers) have their art
: within an hour of the auction closing, and the room has been cleared out of
: con stuff a couple of hours after that.
: I'd say that's a pretty good example to aspire to.
Kay Shapero
MM>back the opening of the window by an hour. In the case of a
MM>customer who has to make an early plane, make separate
MM>arrangements to let them pick up their material first (or mail it
MM>to them after the con).
There are arrangements available to do just that. Being neither on the
Art Show staff nor an artist I don't recall the details, but I saw it in
print in at least one convention publication.
Jazmyn Concolor
Kay Shapero <Kay.S...@f524.n102.z1.fidonet.org> wrote:
>On <Jan 22 12:39>, jaz...@netcom.com (Jazmyn Concolor) wrote;
>
> j> I was more frazzled from dealing with the hotel as the head
> j>director for
> j>the Radisson then I was dealing with the art show, which ran
> j>smoothly enough
>
>Maybe so, but you seemed to be surviving it better - last year when you
>ran the entire shebang, I seem to recall having to order you to get some
>rest more than once. And I doubt you did because by the end of the con
>you had me wondering if calling the paramedics was in order... THIS year
>you didn't look nearly as wasted by the end of the con.
>
>Now, for the $65,000 question... are you running next year's art show, or
>is Viky handling the whole thing. I've got some questions and some advice
>collected from various folks I'd like to discuss with whoever is, to see
>what's feasible and what isn't.
>
As far as I can tell, it looks like I will keep track of paperwork and
artists before and after the con and Vicky will be in charge during the con. As this keeps me from having to be stuck in the art show when I may be needed elsewhere. Being as I tend to be the one who has to do last minute errands and the
one most likely to know where something was put that is needed by staff or the
fact that I tend to have met the sales people at the hotel and they know who I
am and that because of that, I can request things from them...I think I would
best serve the con if not tied to the art show DURING the con.
The rest of the year, I update the database, print mailing labels, help
get In-Fur-Nation pasted up, make trips to the post office and other places,
keep track of artists and the number of panels they need and generaly do
anything that the other directors lack the time for. Being as I process the
mail, I can more easily update infomation then if each bit of info was passed
to different departments..
Right now I am wading through a pile of control sheets, transfering info and
adding up columns. Also there is the task of packing up and shipping back
the mail-in art (lots of it), plus bugging people who bounced checks, failed
to pay for art. etc. Lots of little things..All this between doing REAL (9-5
paying type work, not CF related) WORK... Thus CF work is done in what passes
for my spare time..
David G. Bell
> Scott Alan Malcomson (hors...@indirect.com) wrote:
> : Matt Henry (ban...@netaxs.com) wrote:
> : : Raise the number of bids that causes a piece to go to auction. 4 or 5
> : : isn't enough. Set it to 8 or 10.
> :
> : That's twice as much as any other artshow, and would guarantee that the
> : only pieces that made it were by the absolute best (or best beloved). It
> : wouldn't be worth my time and expense, or the time and expense of half
> : the people who enter, to shell out the bucks and go through the trouble.
> : Might as well stick with local conventions --- where I'm reasonably well
> : known, and actually have a few fans who buy my work regularly --- than
> : try for an unheard-of 8-10 bids!
>
> Think of it this way. The bids are going to be taken, either way.
> If it takes 4 bids to send a piece to auction, and 10 more bids to sell
> it off *in* the auction, then the extra 4 blanks for bids cuts down on
> the people who would only be taking up time during auction.
> Another scenerio. A piece gets the 4 bids to send it to auction.
> In the auction, it takes about 4 minutes to introduce the piece, and sell
> it off, in 3 more bids. If there was a larger "go to auction" ceiling,
> most of the bid-fighting that tends to slow and lag auctions would be
> eliminated. If that scenerio ran even ten times, that's 40 minutes being
> cut off the auction.
> All this proposal says is to keep more of the bidding in the art
> show, rather than in the auction, cutting down on time.
I'm not sure that bidding in the show is equivalent to bidding in the
auction. Not everyone will go back two or three times to check and
re-bid, but in the actual auction, the process is live. You bid.
Somebody else bids, and people keep bidding until they stop.
I will say this, as a general point unrelated to anything which might
have happened at any particular convention: a good auctioneer, with good
support, makes a big difference. There have been some figures given
elsewhere in the thread -- you're talking about a _big_ auction by any
standard. And somebody who does a good job in a fund-raising auction
may not be the right person to handle an art auction.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, Furry, and Punslinger..
Never criticise a farmer with your mouth full.
Sean Malloy
>> mau...@teleport.com (Richard Chandler) writes:
>>
>> A suggestion I had before was to have more blanks on the bid sheet than
>> just the number to go to auction. If it took six bids to go to auction,
>> but there were ten blanks on the sheet, that's four rounds of bidding
>> that can take place before the auction starts. (Heck, that's what the
>> whole bid sheet thing is, a sort of unmoderated auction.)
>
>of those bidding at the art show and those trying to figure out what pieces
>actually should be pulled for the aution, it might work. It would also give those
>who don't wish to spend the time at the auction sort of a last chance to really
>up the bid if they still wanted a shot at it. I'm one of those who won't go to an
>art aution at a con so I would like this idea. There was at least one piece I
>would have likely put an additional bid on at the art show even knowing I
>wouldn't be at the auction itself to bid on it.
Excuse me? All it would take is making the bid sheets a little bit
larger and laying them out something like this (anyone with a laser
printer and a good word processing program can put together a
cleverly-formatted version where the area on the left is shaded a
light gray):
BID # BIDDER NUMBER AMOUNT
1 ____________________ __________
2 ____________________ __________
3 ____________________ __________
______ 4 ____________________ __________
^ 5 ____________________ __________
| 6 ____________________ __________
GOES 7 ____________________ __________
TO 8 ____________________ __________
AUCTION 9 ____________________ __________
| 10 ____________________ __________
__V___ 11 ____________________ __________
Or even something as simple as putting a heavy line across the bid
entry area just above the bid that would send it to auction; if there
are any bids below the line, the piece goes to auction.
--
Sean R. Malloy | American Non Sequitur
Naval Medical Center | Society
San Diego, CA 92134-5000 |
mal...@cris.com | "We may not make sense,
srma...@snd10.med.navy.mil | but we do like pizza"
Scott Alan Malcomson
: Scott Alan Malcomson (hors...@indirect.com) wrote:
: : That's twice as much as any other artshow, and would guarantee that the
: Think of it this way. The bids are going to be taken, either way.
: If it takes 4 bids to send a piece to auction, and 10 more bids to sell
: it off *in* the auction, then the extra 4 blanks for bids cuts down on
: the people who would only be taking up time during auction.
Which assumes that people will constantly check and recheck their bids
during the show...making everyone paranoid and lifting tempers to the
boiling point. It would, in effect, turn the show itself into a mob
scene, with people jealously guarding pieces and others rushing to see
everything before someone made the 10th bid on a piece and removed it.
: Another scenerio. A piece gets the 4 bids to send it to auction.
: In the auction, it takes about 4 minutes to introduce the piece, and sell
: it off, in 3 more bids. If there was a larger "go to auction" ceiling,
: most of the bid-fighting that tends to slow and lag auctions would be
: eliminated. If that scenerio ran even ten times, that's 40 minutes being
: cut off the auction.
That's not another "scenario", that's just reselling the original idea of
making it a requirement for 8 bids to take an item to auction...leading
to the mob scene noted above.
: All this proposal says is to keep more of the bidding in the art
: show, rather than in the auction, cutting down on time.
The reason for bidding to take place in the art show at all is to show
which pieces have enough interest in them to necessitate a bidoff. Three
or four bids shows the interest is there...either two people are already
engaged in a minor bidding war, or three and perhaps four people all want
the same item.
The reason for an auction is to quickly and efficiently determine
just how much these bidders are willing to spend to get the piece, and
much of the game has to do with face-to-face interaction...tone, posture,
shows of force (like jumping the bidding up $10 to try and scare off the
opposition), bluffing...it's more like poker than anything else, and you
just can't do that *outside* an auction.
I remember one year at AmigoCon in El Paso when I actually had
some cash to blow...the artshow was quite nice, albeit small in
comparison to ConFurence. Bids were ridiculously low...the bidding pool
was small, and everyone knew it. Fantastic limited-edition prints of
starfields in the shape of flowing dragons were going for five bucks,
matted and framed.
Well, I got rather angry. Having had some experience with art
shows by that time, I knew that the cost of matting and printing that
dragon alone was five bucks...the artist was literally being asked to
GIVE his artwork away! Looking about the bidding field, I decided that
there was more cash to be had.
The bidding began, and when a nice piece came up that I thought I
might like, I waited for the bids to reach a reasonable level...say, $20
- $25 for the above print. They didn't. Five bucks was going to be it...
"Ten."
It was then we all discovered how much money the bidders were willing to
pony up. My bid was topped by one dollar, I raised my bid to $20, and the
other bidder called out, "Twenty-one!" I let the piece go and waited for
the next, performing the same tactic. I bought enough pieces to show
people that they couldn't be assured that I wouldn't ultimately outbid
them, keeping them on their toes and carefully upping each laughably low
bid to more reasonable levels.
In the end, I wound up buying several pieces I didn't really want
--- like an overly-cute baby dragon sculpture --- but I've never
regretted it. I'm told that I helped double the expected income from art
sales, and I came away with some truly fantastic starscapes and similar
niceties.
All of which is simply to illustrate that there are tactics that
can be used in the auction --- dirty or no --- that you simply can't
replicate through a single sheet of bids, no matter how long.
: True. But think about it. Fans A, B, and C are all vying for a
: piece. Does it matter if they out-bid eachother on paper, during the art
: show (and possibly eliminate one of the bidders before the art auction),
: or by using stall tactics and slowing the auction down?
This is easily enough remedied...it should be posted at the entry to the
art show, and again at the entry to the auction, that bidders are
expected to study the pieces they intend to bid on and determine
beforehand roughly how much they are willing to part with over them. If
they can't decide within fifteen seconds of the last bid whether or not
they're willing to spend at least one more buck than the other guy or
gal, then it's a clear indication that they're either deliberately
stalling...or, worse, likely to bounce a check in order to get ahold of
the piece, which Jazmyn has already said is a problem that drains almost
the entirety of the proceeds from the CF Art Show.
---LCD
Scott Alan Malcomson
: Scott Alan Malcomson (hors...@indirect.com) wrote:
: : That's twice as much as any other artshow, and would guarantee that the
: : only pieces that made it were by the absolute best (or best beloved). It
: Tygger taps Scott on the shoulder. "SDCC's was 7 last year and I've heard
: it's moved up to 10 this year. I know of several cons which are in the
: 5-6 bids to auction range." She tips her head as she rereads his words.
Tygger, SDCC has an attending membership well over ten times what CF has,
but an art show not much bigger than CF. And Custer's already noted what
happened to SDCC: they got swarmed with last-instant bidders and
generally had chaos trying to control things in the art show throughout.
: "Well, true, and I can see your pov, but why not settle for having a
: piece go for twice or three times the min bid on the sheet instead of
: auction?
Well, that's why there's an Instant Sale notation on the CF bid sheets.
And that's up to the artists. Honestly, would you like a piece that
would've gone to auction and maybe gotten five times as much as you were
asking, just because someone who didn't want to fight over it in auction
was willing to shell out three times as much...when you hadn't specified
any Instant Sale price?
: I know having a piece go to auction is neat, a bit of an
: egoboo, and also can get more money for the hard work of an artist, but
: think of this: if the bids are more, think of how much more a piece can
: go for if it DOES go to auction. You have a few who are wanting a piece
: of yours badly enough to fight for it through the 8-10 bids and possibly
: in auction."
Which, again, is going to be very few. Tygger, your stuff is good enough
to get such bids. So is Michele Light's, Terrie Smith's, Baron Engel's...
but not mine, and not the majority of people who put stuff in the show. I
didn't get a single bid on my material this time around, but with a
three-bid requirement I have hope I *might* get to auction next year.
With 8 to 10? Hell, I might as well forget about coughing up some $50 each
year for matting, framing, color print fees, panel costs, and so on...
This year I nearly had to pay shipping charges as well, because I
wasn't able to make it through the mob to get my material *off* the
panels. If it weren't for Lonnie Combs (a new artist to furfandom who I
was proud to work with on inking and coloring, and who actually sold a
piece at auction his first time out) picking it up for me, I'd have been
out another $20-some for postage and handling.
All in all, I and many other artists will bail out of an art show
that requires an unheard-of 8 to 10 bids (even higher than SDCC's 7).
Speaking for myself, I'd much rather spend the cash and time on getting
sketches and prints in the Dealer's Room than tilt at an iron windmill.
: "Having the higher number of bids also can cut out those who aren't
: really serious for the piece as well as get the "fighting" for the piece
: out of the way and ease things in auction."
Auctions are all *about* fighting over pieces. People who aren't serious
drop out quickly, or don't even show, so they're not a major factor.
: : I agree wholeheartedly! The one piece I actually won at auction I never
: : knew about...I couldn't stay for the Sunday auction, so I found out via
: : mail that my $2 bid had won a Mitch Marmel piece...which became $9 when you
: : tack on postage and handling.
: Thinking about this for a moment, she nods. "And it makes you wonder how
: many others won their bids as well and didn't know. A possible solution
: could be that the dealer's den starts late, or stays open late, or the
: dealer has a trusted helper to watch their table as they go and check
: their bids. But some may have a hard time getting help so the point is
: moot for them."
Well, in any event, that only helps dealers who may have bids on
pieces...not the majority of bidders. It would require more volunteers,
and CF's already stretched thin on that score.
: : Again, I agree. It seems more a matter of timing what opens and closes
: : when, rather than rearrange the whole schmeer.
: She nods. "I agree with the idea of trying to get the timing right.
: This is just IMHO, but perhaps keeping the dealer's den open later and
: perhaps moving the time of the auction up could be worked out."
Yup. Many people do indeed want to hit up the Dealer's Room on Sunday,
that I've seen...people regularly have to be chased out, causing dealers
potential loss of sales. If it's a matter of having to pay extra for the
room, perhaps a "Dead Dog Dealer's Room" could be set up.
Essentially, this would be a "mailbox" service set up in Artist's
Alley where a single person overwatches a large cardboard box or series
of boxes (one per participant, perchance?) on a single table. Interested
buyers would write down what they wanted from a particular dealer, write
a check for the amount (dealers would therefore be encouraged to provide
catalogs for the table), and staple it to the note with their name and
address.
Dealers might either check their "mailboxes" on the way out of
the con, or have it forwarded by CF (with a bill for postage and
handling). This would have the advantages of preserving a certain amount
of "impulse" purchasing for dealers, as well as letting buyers avoid the
common trap of having to wait to order material until they get home ---
whereupon they're forced to play catchup with three or four days of their
life, and wind up forgetting their desire to order in the flurry. It also
gives a faster turnaround time in the case of dealers who do check the
box before leaving.
Just a thot.
---LCD
Bernard Doove
> The CF(w) art show is by far one of the best selling shows in all of
> fandom...because of this, the lines can be long...however because you the
> buyers keep buying...etc.
>
> This is VERY good for all of the artist involved...it keeps them and you
> coming back for more...Sooooooo...lets keep being patient in the lines and
> to thank to art show staff for their time too!!
>
> Jeff Ferris
> Editor/Publisher
> YARF!
I've got to agree that the length of the line is indicative of the sheer
amount of good art of many types available to suit our varied tastes. Yet
I also think that the handling was improved this year and waiting was not
anywhere near as long as last year. As for the need for patience, mine
was not so badly thinned because I got to meet and talk to some wonderful
people that I may have never found the time to converse with otherwise.
(Hi, Silver!) Make the most of the inevitable...make a friend!
--
Chakat Goldfur: "I don't bite, I PURR!"
[ Bernard Doove - Melbourne, Australia ]
Scott Alan Malcomson
: On 2/2/96, hors...@indirect.com said to All concerning Re: Top Ten Things
: hm> out via mail that my $2 bid had won a Mitch Marmel piece...which
: hm> became $9 when you tack on postage and handling.
: Oh? Which one? (gryn)
The Lorena Smurfette/Gelded Barney set. Too cute to pass up. -:)
---LCD
Timothy D Fay
>I know this much: Tim Fay does NOT need to generate controversy- It
>happens completely without any effort on his part, unlike some people I
>know. As to the Hirtes incident, it should be noted that that was started
>by Tygger here, and set off a number of rather angry voices here, but I
>believe the anger towards him had already been at his feet long before
>that tirade. Whether it was Tim Fay or someone else, news about the mess
>here on a.f.f. would have gotten right back to him.
Thanks, Dennis. I have no idea what Mike Hirtes has to do with my
alleged "bad behavior" at CF6. I've spoken with him maybe three or
four times over the last five years (since I don't do "spooge," I'm
not regarded as a "popular" artist :) ). Now, it is possible that on
one of those occasions he asked me about what was being said about
him on a.f.f. -- frankly, I don't recall. But if he did ask me, then
I would have told him the truth. But the way to avoid trouble with
him (Jazmyn, if you're listening...) is to stop gossipping about him
in a public forum. If someone had to change their phone number as a
result of badmouthing someone else on the nets, then that rates a big
"ZERO" on my Sympathy Scale...
And while I appreciate the support, Quozl, please refrain from using the
b-word; unless you happen to be a proud member of the Canine Community,
it's a very degrading and sexist term.
k...@mcs.com
> The reason for an auction is to quickly and efficiently determine
> just how much these bidders are willing to spend to get the piece, and
> much of the game has to do with face-to-face interaction...tone, posture,
> shows of force (like jumping the bidding up $10 to try and scare off the
> opposition), bluffing...it's more like poker than anything else, and you
> just can't do that *outside* an auction.
Yes you can. At least I did. As I've said I don't go to auctions. There were a
caouple pieces I really wanted at the art show that were getting bid up rather
slowly. I simply took the expedient of figuring out figuring out how high I might
be willing to bid at the auction and putting that down as a bid. I believe it
more than doubled the bid on both pieces and I ended up with both. My
stratagy was simple. First, force any further bids to be above mine which
would indicate that somebody else wanted the piece more (I wouldn't have
re-bid) and second, to bluff anyone who might think about sending one of
them to acution that they'd never end up with it since somebody was willing
to jump the bid that much. It's amazing how many $1 raisers are scared off
with a raise of $10. Did that on a few other pieces. There are bidding
statagies that can be used in the art show. they just work a little slower.
> This is easily enough remedied...it should be posted at the entry to the
> art show, and again at the entry to the auction, that bidders are
> expected to study the pieces they intend to bid on and determine
> beforehand roughly how much they are willing to part with over them. If
> they can't decide within fifteen seconds of the last bid whether or not
> they're willing to spend at least one more buck than the other guy or
> gal, then it's a clear indication that they're either deliberately
> stalling...or, worse, likely to bounce a check in order to get ahold of
> the piece, which Jazmyn has already said is a problem that drains almost
> the entirety of the proceeds from the CF Art Show.
I'd say the generalization that those stalling are likely to bounce checks is a
little broad. As for bounced checks draining most of the proceeds then the
simple solution is to not accept them and make that very clear in advance.
THis might cut down on some art sales but at least what was bought would
get paid for. The other option that would add a whole lot of work would be to
hold art paid for by check untill the check cleared. Art that had a check
bounce could be sent back to the artist or offered to the next highest bidder.
THis isn't a likely solution since it would add so much to the workload.
Jazmyn Concolor
Timothy D Fay <fayx...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>D.M. "Quozl" Falk (qu...@netcom.com) wrote:
>
>>I know this much: Tim Fay does NOT need to generate controversy- It
>>happens completely without any effort on his part, unlike some people I
>>know. As to the Hirtes incident, it should be noted that that was started
>>by Tygger here, and set off a number of rather angry voices here, but I
Tygger wasn't the one who caused someone to phone harrass several people
on the net just to stir up trouble.
>>believe the anger towards him had already been at his feet long before
>>that tirade. Whether it was Tim Fay or someone else, news about the mess
>>here on a.f.f. would have gotten right back to him.
>
>Thanks, Dennis. I have no idea what Mike Hirtes has to do with my
>alleged "bad behavior" at CF6. I've spoken with him maybe three or
>four times over the last five years (since I don't do "spooge," I'm
>not regarded as a "popular" artist :) ). Now, it is possible that on
So..You're a prude..Big deal. I bet you support the Exxon Bill to, eh?
>one of those occasions he asked me about what was being said about
>him on a.f.f. -- frankly, I don't recall. But if he did ask me, then
>I would have told him the truth. But the way to avoid trouble with
>him (Jazmyn, if you're listening...) is to stop gossipping about him
>in a public forum. If someone had to change their phone number as a
>result of badmouthing someone else on the nets, then that rates a big
>"ZERO" on my Sympathy Scale...
You must be one of the most boneheaded people on the net...I WASN'T
gossipping about Hirtes on the net..YOU were telling HIM about other people
gossipping on the net about him and didn't even tell him what was said by
whom, thus he went after everyone. Because YOU had to tell him that someone
mentioned his name on the net..Not because you are a friend of his, BUT
because you like to cause trouble.
As for the person who had to change her phone number..SHE can speak up
if she wants..and she has every right to be angry..
Tygger
: As for the person who had to change her phone number..SHE can speak up
: if she wants..and she has every right to be angry..
Tygger nods to Jazmyn. "I was the one who had to change my phone number.
I NEVER gave it to Hirtes, he would NOT tell me where he had gotten it
nor would he give me any info as to what channels he went through to get
it. All he would say on that, and this is a direct quote: I collect
these things. He kept hemming and hawing, diverting the question each time."
"Make of this what you will."
TTFN!
Tygger! (who's answering this because Dean thought she should)
--
Major Matt Mason
Heard At ConFurence 7:
hm> piece...which : hm> became $9 when you tack on postage and handling.
hm>
hm> : Oh? Which one? (gryn)
hm>
hm> The Lorena Smurfette/Gelded Barney set. Too cute to pass up. -:)
Yabbut which one? The plushie set or the plastic set? :)
-MMM-
--
|Fidonet: Major Matt Mason 1:273/952.1
|Internet: Major.Ma...@p1.f952.n273.z1.fidonet.org
|
Mark Ashworth
: Jazmyn Concolor (jaz...@netcom.com) wrote:
: : As for the person who had to change her phone number..SHE can speak up
: : if she wants..and she has every right to be angry..
: Tygger nods to Jazmyn. "I was the one who had to change my phone number.
: I NEVER gave it to Hirtes, he would NOT tell me where he had gotten it
: nor would he give me any info as to what channels he went through to get
: it. All he would say on that, and this is a direct quote: I collect
: these things. He kept hemming and hawing, diverting the question each time."
: "Make of this what you will."
"What do you make it out to be, Spock?"
"Interesting, Captian. It appears to be someone who didn't consider how
much trouble he could cause until put on the spot."
"Analysis?"
"Fry him."
"I'm surprised! That is hardly logical!"
"You are right. A photon torpedo should be sufficient."
(crass, low, fannish humor spoken here...)
fayx...@maroon.tc.umn.edu
jaz...@netcom.com (Jazmyn Concolor) wrote:
> So..You're a prude..Big deal. I bet you support the Exxon Bill to, eh?
Um, no. I don't. And I've said as much in another thread...
>I WASN'T gossipping about Hirtes on the net..
Actually, you were. As I recall, you and several other people were
part of a thread discussing what an evil, nasty-bad "fanboy" Hirtes
allegedly is/was. Whether or not he actually is all that bad is
beside the point. You were still gossipping about him.
...And I still have no idea what this has to do with my alleged "bad
behavior" at CF6.
>...Not because you are a friend of his, BUT
>because you like to cause trouble.
Perhaps you ought to stick to attacking the zoophiles, Jaz.
Lief Clennon
Alan Malcomson) writes:
>Which, again, is going to be very few. Tygger, your stuff is good enough
>to get such bids. So is Michele Light's, Terrie Smith's, Baron Engel's...
>but not mine, and not the majority of people who put stuff in the show. I
>didn't get a single bid on my material this time around, but with a
>three-bid requirement I have hope I *might* get to auction next year.
>With 8 to 10? Hell, I might as well forget about coughing up some $50 each
>year for matting, framing, color print fees, panel costs, and so on...
How's this, then? Within certain guidelines, let each artist set the maximum
number of art-show bids for his/her own pieces. That way you can go to
auction after three bids, and Tygger can go after 8. It would need a bit more
in the way of administration, but it shouldn't be that hard. Have a bid sheet
with, say, ten slots; take a big red marker and put a line below the last
slot. (And you can even use the other slots for pre-auction bids, as was
suggested earlier.)
Lenester the Badger
li...@asis.com
Dave Bryant
>How's this, then? Within certain guidelines, let each artist set the maximum
>number of art-show bids for his/her own pieces. That way you can go to
>auction after three bids, and Tygger can go after 8.
Given a choice, who's going to choose anything but the minimum number of
bids allowed? I know I would, regardless of my level of skill!
I think this is a dead end, but if someone were _determined_ to _make_ it
work, I would recommend categories of artists, such as "Apprentice",
"Journeyman", and "Master", or "Amateur" (in the sense of not-doing-it-for-
a-living), "Semi-Professional", and "Professional", with clearly
delineated definitions for each category. Perhaps one criterion could be,
if the artist has shown previously, how well that artist did.
I would magnanimously refuse credit and immediately after making the
suggestion remove myself from the vicinity and possible blame when all
Hell breaks loose, as it inevitably would....
Dave Bryant, Art Director, _Yarf!_
p...@netcom.com
Cupertino, California, United States
...Who recognizes, even so, that no system created by mortals is perfect
-- but some are better than others....