Art Commission offered and Refused
Foxpaws
83) FoxPaws Today -- Commision Ignored
From: FoxPaws 05:04:02 04/08/99 CDT
This silly little fox recently offered on FurryMUCK good American
Dollars for someone to draw, paint, carve on stone or silver or scrape
onto a cave wall a picture of a little non-anthro foxy going hunting the
wild and wiley pizza beast, which I'm told looks rather like an
anthropomorphized Domino's delivery van. He can only assume that since
there was no mention of depicting BDSM, beastiality, pedophillia or any
other of the favorite furry fetishes in the aforementioned drawing, that
his request was ignored. Concidering the continuing decline of the fandom,
he's not surprized.
<yerf!>
*----------------*
| |\_/| |
| / \ |
| /_.~ ~._\ |
| / \@/ \ |
| ( .___. ) |
| \_) (_.' |
*----------------*
FoxPaws
'Live foxes' spelled backwards is 'Sex of Evil'.
StukaFox
: <yerf!>
: *----------------*
: | |\_/| |
: | / \ |
: | /_.~ ~._\ |
: | / \@/ \ |
: | ( .___. ) |
: | \_) (_.' |
: *----------------*
: FoxPaws
Hey, FoxPaws --
You should two-tone your Saturn in red and white! It'd look
good!
: 'Live foxes' spelled backwards is 'Sex of Evil'.
That's kinda scarey. Scratch that -- it's VERY scarey.
StukaFox
Fox of Evil
--
GREAT EMPTY THREATS OF THE USENET #109:
"When I'm finished in nanau, I'm gonna pay the newsgroups you frequent
a visit. You aren't going to like it."
Tim "Wanky the Wanker" Thorn
specia...@hell-flame-wars.org
BSu7739420
worth. Sometimes artists just aren't intersted, period. I've been an artist
and a writer both and have found that it is very difficult to get good people
to work on your projects. As an artist I unfortinatly am more tied up in
putting my own ideas on paper. This probably doesn't mean that there's
something wrong with your ideas or there's something wrong with the artist it
means that you just haven't found someone to work with yet. It took me three
years to find the fellow I'm currently working with, yes in spite of offering
hard currency.
I think that I'm really writting this for all the lurkers out there because I
suspect that people like Foxpaw and Lonewolf have got a pretty big chip on
their shoulders. Anyway if you really are having trouble getting published or
getting commisions done go ahead and contact me and I can give you a few
pointer from my time as an editor.
Brian Sutton
" Because I REALLY care about your happiness..."
Sci Fox
> Dollars for someone to draw, paint, carve on stone or silver or scrape
> onto a cave wall a picture of a little non-anthro foxy going hunting the
> wild and wiley pizza beast, which I'm told looks rather like an
> anthropomorphized Domino's delivery van. He can only assume that since
> there was no mention of depicting BDSM, beastiality, pedophillia or any
> other of the favorite furry fetishes in the aforementioned drawing, that
> his request was ignored. Concidering the continuing decline of the fandom,
> he's not surprized.
I don't know if you've checked out Yerf's (www.yerf.com) recent uploads page
recently, but there is a a pic up on there (uploaded 04/08/99) with an ickle
foxy hunting pizza. It also mentions somthing about a "sort-of" commision.
It may be a coincidence, but from what I've read from you here and the text
following the pic, I doubt it.
Sci Fox --- Why is everyone getting so ^&$$^$*(* f**king bitchy?!?
Cerulean
>This silly little fox recently offered on FurryMUCK good American
>Dollars for someone to draw, paint, carve on stone or silver or scrape
>onto a cave wall a picture of a little non-anthro foxy going hunting the
>wild and wiley pizza beast, which I'm told looks rather like an
>anthropomorphized Domino's delivery van. He can only assume that since
>there was no mention of depicting BDSM, beastiality, pedophillia or any
>other of the favorite furry fetishes in the aforementioned drawing, that
>his request was ignored. Concidering the continuing decline of the fandom,
>he's not surprized.
Perhaps your mistake was asking on FurryMuck.
Or perhaps that's my mistake. Is this the standard procedure that I've
been missing? Should I be hanging around on FurryMuck all day waiting
for someone to @shout an open commission request? I've never been
there, see, so I don't know. I guess it would explain why every artist
with a FurryMuck presence has a fan base. But I still feel like
FurryMuck shouldn't have to be a requirement for furry fandom.
--
___vvz /( Cerulean * http://www.cerulean.st/
<__,` Z / ( DC.D/? fs+h++ Gm CB^P a$m++d+++l*g-e!i
`~~~) )Z) ( FDDmp4adwsA+++$C+D+HM+P-RT+++WZSm#
/ (7 ( aueJ) Ja!seJj 'Jp - ,,'a!>oo) e a^eH,,
XianJaguar
>This silly little fox recently offered on FurryMUCK good American
>Dollars for someone to draw, paint, carve on stone or silver or scrape
>onto a cave wall a picture of a little non-anthro foxy going hunting the
>wild and wiley pizza beast, which I'm told looks rather like an
>anthropomorphized Domino's delivery van SNIP>>
As an artist myself, I would NOT take your general request on FurryMuck
seriously. It sounds wishy-washy....you have no artist in mind, and are posting
just a general hopeful request.
The idea itsels is a cute one, and artists would probably like to do it, but
you need to actually pick an artist you like and COMMISSION them.
I know after being scewed countless times in the past, I would not jump to
someones general request on a muck where a lot of folks are poor teen-agers.
(not nessacarly you, but a I found out later that a lot of folks who
"commissioned" me in the the past were teenagers with no intent of paying...)
Just my two cents. Plus, a lot of artists don't muck regularly, and if they DO,
they don't always check the bulleting boards...
Case in point: Jim Groat. He NEVER checks. I know this. Even after I posted
REGULARY about the CF art show (since October of last year!) he found out about
the changes only after I e-mailed him personally a few days before the Con (His
snail mail wasn't getting to him either!). He was surprised about a few issues,
I asked him why he never checked the bulletin boards in FurryMuck. Lotta people
don't.
So hang in there....
pick an artist you LIKE and COMMISSION them!
XianJaguar
Simion Lonewolf
news:19990408124525...@ng04.aol.com...
> I think that I'm really writting this for all the lurkers out there
because I
> suspect that people like Foxpaw and Lonewolf have got a pretty big
chip on
> their shoulders.
<the wolf looks at his shoulders and brushes it off>
Looks like it's time to start using Head & Shoulders again. :-\
Actually, I don't mind furs saying "I don't have the time." I know that
situation all too well. But when you tell me you can and will, and then
a YEAR later you have nothing to show for it, that's breaking a promise
to me. If you can't do something, don't pretend to be able to. There's
nothing lost in saying "I can't," or "I won't." At least, not as much
to be lost as to be lost when you turn back on your word.
Also, when you say "I'll get back to you," and you (1) don't even
recognize me my next contact or (2) flat-out ignore me, that's also
breaking a promise (on top of being plain rude for keeping it up). I
can be forgetful, too, but sheesh, I feel like I've been given the cold
shoulder -- made colder without any explanation as to why.
If a picture is truly worth a thousand words, I've already drawn over 40
pics in my 20 months as an author. (BTW, I did the count with MS Word;
it's not like I'm making an educated guess here.) That's an average of
2 pics a month. And yes, I know -- I'm not the fastest, and others may
be slower. But still, a year?
--
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| simion/at/altavista/dot/net ICQ # 17913996 |
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Foxpaws
: <<Quoth Foxpaws:
:>This silly little fox recently offered on FurryMUCK good American
:>Dollars for someone to draw, paint, carve on stone or silver or scrape
:>onto a cave wall a picture of a little non-anthro foxy going hunting the
:>wild and wiley pizza beast, which I'm told looks rather like an
:>anthropomorphized Domino's delivery van SNIP>>
: As an artist myself, I would NOT take your general request on FurryMuck
: seriously. It sounds wishy-washy....you have no artist in mind, and are posting
: just a general hopeful request.
: The idea itsels is a cute one, and artists would probably like to do it, but
: you need to actually pick an artist you like and COMMISSION them.
Well, since everyone seems to have reached a general concencess that it's
wrong to want to have your character depicted doing something compleatly
innocent and even more wrong to get miffed when your request is ignored
amd further since no one seems to need a few extra dollars, the offer of a
commission is hereby withdrawn as is my respect for the furry artistic
community.
ELynne
> XianJaguar <xianj...@aol.com> wrote:
> : As an artist myself, I would NOT take your general request on FurryMuck
> : seriously. It sounds wishy-washy....you have no artist in mind, and are posting
> : just a general hopeful request.
> : The idea itsels is a cute one, and artists would probably like to do it, but
> : you need to actually pick an artist you like and COMMISSION them.
> Well, since everyone seems to have reached a general concencess that it's
> wrong to want to have your character depicted doing something compleatly
> innocent and even more wrong to get miffed when your request is ignored
> amd further since no one seems to need a few extra dollars, the offer of a
> commission is hereby withdrawn as is my respect for the furry artistic
> community.
Ohfercryingoutloud. *snort*
Foxpaws, have you *listened* to what people are saying at all? (read what
they wrote, whatever) You've had three people express interest in your
commission, who wish you had contacted them directly. One version of the
picture was apparantly in the works when you posted up the first snippy
note, according to Yerf (look at http://www.yerf.com/anzumich/pizzafox.gif
if you doubt my words).
I've had three non-spooge commission requests honored, and I've got plans
in the works for at least two more. You know how I did that? I CONTACTED
THE ARTISTS DIRECTLY. Wow! Communication works! Imagine that!!
What you did was the equivalent of standing in the middle of a party
saying "Hey, somebody, bring me a drink! Somebody bring me this specific
drink!" and then getting all pissy when it appeared that nobody had leaped
to immediately do your bidding. I cannot express my irritation that you
seem to think that because you made a general public request for something
that you somehow deserve for compliant swarms to descend upon you,
granting your every wish.
I've been posting to a very tight-knit newsgroup, where I know people I've
never seen in my life as well or better than people I see every day, and
in the four years I've been hanging out there I've had a grand total of
*two* people spontaneously decide to draw my picture (thanks again,
Cerulean!). I don't expect to have people draw my picture on a whim any
more than I expect them to send me checks in the mail because I don't have
pocket change to buy a Coke.
A request is just that--a request; no obligation implied or granted. A
commission is a more formal request that deserves a yes-or-no answer, and
if the answer is yes it deserves to be followed up on. If you had
directly asked an artist for the picture and been told yes, then I would
say that you have grounds to be upset if the request was not fulfilled.
As it is...
This "fandom" thing is just like anything else in life; you get out of it
pretty much *exactly* what you put in. I've chosen to put in effort to
have pictures created for me by certain artists, and I haven't been
dissapointed. I think that if you try the same tactic, you just might
find the results more pleasing.
*sigh* I apologize somewhat for the cranky tone of this message--I could
be saying this nicer, but I'm feeling cranky now, and it occurs to me that
if three (or maybe more) "nice" messages saying the same thing haven't
gotten through to you, maybe a cranky one will. Besides, I am cranky
about it. If somebody mentioned in my presence that they wanted a
particular picture done, without addressing the request to me
specifically, I might do it if I wanted to, or I might shrug it off; but
either way, I'd be *really* annoyed if the person later complained about
the lack of results. If you stand on a streetcorner and shout, nobody is
obligated to listen.
-- Elynne
Bev Clark/Steve Gallacci
>wrong to want to have your character depicted doing something compleatly
>innocent and even more wrong to get miffed when your request is ignored
>amd further since no one seems to need a few extra dollars, the offer of a
>commission is hereby withdrawn as is my respect for the furry artistic
>community.
Which is, of course, the conclusion of an undersocialized fanboy geek.
I'm not going to be polite today.
Since we don't know waht really happened, there isn't too mcuh to be said
about the initial incident. However, the character of the posts have been
petty and pissing little tantrums.
The claimed request seems to have been perfectly innocious and would likely
have not been all that much an issue.
But we don't know who was asked - some artists are very specific/restricted/
limited as to what they are able or willing to do.
And we don't know how the request was pursued - I've had naggy, fussy, cheap,
or simply pain in the ass customers that I'd rather not deal with, all the
time. So we don't know if the request was loaded with all kinds of
complications, nor do we know about any other context issues.
So, in the end, we get a whiney post about how an "innocent" request was
turned down by all us spoogehound furry artists, and when the post didn't
get an immediate avalance of moral outrage/heartfelt condolences, you
come back and condemn us all.
Fuck you and go away, you little pest.
Yes, this was really by that old SOB Gallacci, who gets really tierd of
the petulant, selfish whines and rants by these social cripples.
(actually, I do try to deal with real damaged goods, there are people in
the fandom who could use some compassion, but these noisey and
self-rightious piss ants get my dander up)
OffCentaur
>: <<Quoth Foxpaws:
>
>:>This silly little fox recently offered on FurryMUCK good American
>:>Dollars for someone to draw, paint, carve on stone or silver or scrape
>:>onto a cave wall a picture of a little non-anthro foxy going hunting the
>:>wild and wiley pizza beast, which I'm told looks rather like an
>:>anthropomorphized Domino's delivery van SNIP>>
>
>: seriously. It sounds wishy-washy....you have no artist in mind, and are
>posting
>: just a general hopeful request.
>
>: The idea itsels is a cute one, and artists would probably like to do it,
>but
>: you need to actually pick an artist you like and COMMISSION them.
>
>wrong to want to have your character depicted doing something compleatly
>innocent and even more wrong to get miffed when your request is ignored
>amd further since no one seems to need a few extra dollars, the offer of a
>commission is hereby withdrawn as is my respect for the furry artistic
>community.
Keep your respect just use your head when commissioning. I found out that also
when I asked for my first commission. Either everybody or nobody will jump at
the chance (try nobody) So decide upon an artist to do a commission and ask
about rates, time schedules, taboos as to what they will and won't draw.
Ask about payment options. All in front. % up front with additional
percentages upon seeing roughs and final installment due on completion. Good
idea. Or have the artist do the art and then pay at the end of the commission
(BAD IDEA! artist is stuck with specific art and now must find a buyer with
similar tastes as yours) Or pay up front and hope the artist will do the
commision (In my case if they don't, no big deal. Just make a mental note not
to deal with them again and move on. Course with my fallible memory, sometimes
I forget. Still I figure starving artists need my money more than I do)
Wall Street Journal Furry Note:
Yesterday 4/8 on the leisure page there were 2 animal articles. First on the
capture of a coyote in Central Park (You know - NYC, received big coverage in
the big apple and no Apple fur posted this information) Seems the coyote liked
Central Park and took his would be captors and a romp across the square mile
before getting tranqed.
Next the surplus of Lesser White Snow Geese and the extension and increase in
daily limit on hunting them. Seems they are destroying their tundra nesting
grounds and populations must be reduced to save the tundra. Areas the
decimated 15 years ago have yet to begin grwing back. (This is arctic tundra
were talking about folks takes over a hundred years for these fragile little
plants to take root and grow. Geese feed by ripping up the plant root and all)
And the Humane Society is decrying this abuse. Figures. Best to let them
destroy their breeding grounds and then have huge numbers suffer starvation in
the future than to humanly thin the ranks now.
All for now. Going back to planting.
OffCentaur
Brava! Well stated! Listen to the cranky lady. Hope she's right using this
tactic. Seems kindness and civility is lost on some furs.
Now really going back to farming!
Michael Campbell
Foxpaws wrote:
> Well, since everyone seems to have reached a general concencess that it's
> wrong to want to have your character depicted doing something compleatly
> innocent and even more wrong to get miffed when your request is ignored
> amd further since no one seems to need a few extra dollars, the offer of a
> commission is hereby withdrawn as is my respect for the furry artistic
> community.
You didn't get what you wanted because you didn't make the request to anyone in
particular, so you're having a hissy fit and blaming the entirety of furrydom for it?
Spare me. If you want the damn drawing so bad, draw it yourself. If you don't know
how to draw, get out a pencil and paper and learn. Stop being just a consumer and
actually become a part of the fandom...
GothTiger (tig...@execpc.com)
((Who wonders if anyone will get the message))
Lost Number
perfectly normal as a headline in The Onion?
I just had to share that. Please, continue your conversations.
*Muke!
--
FDTc2af A C- D H++ M+ P++ R T+ W Z- Sm-
RLA/CT a- clmn+++ d-- e+ f+++ h-- i++ j+ p sm
ICQ: 1936556 http://mc11a.southern.edu/
"Everything is true."
Brian W. Antoine
> Spare me. If you want the damn drawing so bad, draw it yourself. If you don't know
> how to draw, get out a pencil and paper and learn. Stop being just a consumer and
> actually become a part of the fandom...
Are you seriously claiming that those of us who can't draw, are not a
part of this fandom?
--
(UniKyrn on IM, ICQ#27068798)
Brian W. Antoine briana @ iea|dogear|circuit|cet .com
http://velar.ctrl-c.liu.se/
Dr. Cat
: A request is just that--a request; no obligation implied or granted. A
: commission is a more formal request that deserves a yes-or-no answer, and
: if the answer is yes it deserves to be followed up on.
If it's asked of one specific person, I'd agree. If you adress a
question to a group of people with a bunch of artists, you certainly
can't expect every single one of them to come back with a yes or no.
Most of them will think "Oh, since he's not addressing me personally,
I'll let somebody else answer his question." Sometimes that "most" will
turn out to be "all". I can't count the number of times I've seen
similar situations, be it on a muck or chat program, or a party or con or
any other social gathering... Where there's a group of people hanging
around and talking, and someone wanders up and tries to get in on the
conversation by addressing a "hi" to nobody in particular, or starts
trying to bring up some topic or anecdote and nobody shows an interest in
talking to them about it.
The world doesn't owe you a conversation just because you want one. If
you reply to what people are already talking about, they're more likely
to be interested in what you want to say. And if you address a question,
comment, or just a "Hi" to a specific *individual* instead of to a whole
group, then they're more likely to say something back. Going up to three
artists that have indicated they take commissions and asking them one at
a time is FAR more likely to get results then posting in public to nobody
in particular. In addition to the fact that there's more of a sense of
social obligation to reply to someone speaking to you directly then there
is to someone addressing a large group you're standing around in...
You're also implying something different to the artist. Instead of "I'll
give this money to anyone who can draw, and by the way even if you offer
to accept it I might end up telling you 'Oh another artist already
contacted me first'..." You're sending more of a message of "I want a
drawing by one of the artists I like best, and that's why I'm asking you
specifically."
Mind you, if you ask 3 artists and they all turn you down, that doesn't
necessarily mean nobody will draw anything but spooge either. They might
all be busy, or not want to do work for the rate you're offering, or be
annoyed at you, or whatever. A handful of artists isn't a statistically
valid sample size to make sweeping statements about all artists in the
fandom in any case.
*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
Dr. Cat / Dragon's Eye Productions || Free alpha test:
*-------------------------------------------** http://www.bga.com/furcadia
Furcadia - a new graphic mud for PCs! || Let your imagination soar!
*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
(Disclaimer: You ever think people expect waaaaay too much from the
fandom? It's just a hobby with a bunch of people doing stuff for fun for
other people that have the same hobby.)
(Disclaimer Disclaimer: If it was a business though, then you'd have a
right to expect more. You could expect the same kind of lousy service
you get from fast food chains and other fine businesses today. :X)
Matthew Milam
Gallacci) wrote:
>>Well, since everyone seems to have reached a general concencess that it's
>>wrong to want to have your character depicted doing something compleatly
>>innocent and even more wrong to get miffed when your request is ignored
>>amd further since no one seems to need a few extra dollars, the offer of a
>>commission is hereby withdrawn as is my respect for the furry artistic
>>community.
>
>Which is, of course, the conclusion of an undersocialized fanboy geek.
>I'm not going to be polite today.
I doubt most of you can be from my own admission.
>Since we don't know waht really happened, there isn't too mcuh to be said
>about the initial incident. However, the character of the posts have been
>petty and pissing little tantrums.
If most of you figured that out, then why is there 15 replies?
>The claimed request seems to have been perfectly innocious and would likely
>have not been all that much an issue.
You know, I would have done the picture just to avoid this bad PR
always coming up.
>But we don't know who was asked - some artists are very specific/restricted/
>limited as to what they are able or willing to do.
Then perhaps they should tell Foxpaws that (Note to Foxpaws, always
keep a log, I don't care if it doesn't mean, jack, just keep it)
>And we don't know how the request was pursued - I've had naggy, fussy, cheap,
>or simply pain in the ass customers that I'd rather not deal with, all the
>time. So we don't know if the request was loaded with all kinds of
>complications, nor do we know about any other context issues.
Oh, so that's why your not polite today?
>
>So, in the end, we get a whiney post about how an "innocent" request was
>turned down by all us spoogehound furry artists, and when the post didn't
>get an immediate avalance of moral outrage/heartfelt condolences, you
>come back and condemn us all.
>
>Fuck you and go away, you little pest.
"sighs" And people comdemn me for being a jerk.
>
>Yes, this was really by that old SOB Gallacci, who gets really tierd of
>the petulant, selfish whines and rants by these social cripples.
According to the posting which i'm replying to, you don't vaildate
that you aren't one.
Matthew Milam
mmi...@interlync.com
Matthew Milam
>Michael Campbell (tig...@execpc.com) wrote:
>> Spare me. If you want the damn drawing so bad, draw it yourself. If you don't know
>> how to draw, get out a pencil and paper and learn. Stop being just a consumer and
>> actually become a part of the fandom...
>
> Are you seriously claiming that those of us who can't draw, are not a
>part of this fandom?
I believe that's what he said. And might I add, the same has been said
to me on #furry, here, and everywhere else. I still consider it
bullshit.
Matthew Milam
mmi...@interlync.com
Cerulean
>Has anyone else been struck by the idea that this subject line would look
>perfectly normal as a headline in The Onion?
>
>I just had to share that. Please, continue your conversations.
____________________________________________________________________
ART COMMISSION OFFERED AND REFUSED
FURRYMUCK-- Yesterday, a local fox was brutally *----------------*
ignored when he attempted to commission art from | |\_/| |
the furry fandom. Foxpaws, a little non-anthro | / \_/ \ |
foxy, walked into a public area and asked furry | /_.~ ~._\ |
fandom to draw him "going hunting the wild and | / \@/ \ |
wiley pizza beast," and furry fandom failed to | ( .___. ) |
respond, even when the fox offered it American | \_) (_.' |
Dollars. *----------------*
"He must have been waiting there for at least "His request was
thirty minutes, and furry fandom just continued ignored," said
to not take his commission," said Spott Fnord, Foxpaws, speaking
one of the three or four onlookers who witnessed of himself.
the scene. "It was inhuman."
Furry fandom, a subsidiary of GeoCities, is an entity that draws
pictures of animal characters. This is not the first time furry fandom
has faced charges of refusing a commission. Last month, an anonymous
being posted to alt.fan.furry to ask for "good pix for my site," and
was similarly denied service. This and the FoxPaws refusal are only a
few of the most recent incidents; furry fandom has failed to respond
to over 66.6 open commission requests in 1999 alone.
"He can only assume that since there was no mention of depicting BDSM,
beastiality, pedophillia or any other of the favorite furry fetishes
in the aforementioned drawing, that his request was ignored," said
Foxpaws, referring to himself in the third person. "Concidering the
continuing decline of the fandom, he's not surprized."
Furry fandom was unavailable for comment.
The wild and wiley pizza beast is said to be similar in appearance to
a Domino's delivery van. The only credible depiction of the beast
known to cryptozoologists is scraped onto a cave wall in Peru. No
progress has been made in determining just what connection there is
between Domino's and pizza.
sola...@don'tmesswithtexas.net
>: As an artist myself, I would NOT take your general request on FurryMuck
>: seriously. It sounds wishy-washy....you have no artist in mind, and are posting
>: just a general hopeful request.
>
>: The idea itsels is a cute one, and artists would probably like to do it, but
>: you need to actually pick an artist you like and COMMISSION them.
>
>Well, since everyone seems to have reached a general concencess that it's
>wrong to want to have your character depicted doing something compleatly
>innocent and even more wrong to get miffed when your request is ignored
>amd further since no one seems to need a few extra dollars, the offer of a
>commission is hereby withdrawn as is my respect for the furry artistic
>community.
Perhaps you should use those few extra dollars on a course in reading
comprehension, instead. Or did you even _bother_ to read _all_ of
XianJaguar's post first?
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"Fool! You have just signed the universe's death warrant!"
"I did? Uh... gee, I don't know if I'm authorized to sign that..."
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solarfox@DON'TMESSWITHtexas.net (Gary Akins jr.)
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Bev Clark/Steve Gallacci
>>> how to draw, get out a pencil and paper and learn. Stop being just a consumer and
>>> actually become a part of the fandom...
>>
>> Are you seriously claiming that those of us who can't draw, are not a
>>part of this fandom?
>
>I believe that's what he said. And might I add, the same has been said
>to me on #furry, here, and everywhere else. I still consider it
>bullshit.
And for once I agree with you totally. Such notions of
elitist/exclusionist based on creator/consumer is nuts, like saying only
SFWA memebers can attend SF cons.
As for my earlier, and rather intemperate post, I do appologize for the tone.
I still think that "foxpaws" or whoever is a petulant pest.
Michael Campbell
Bev Clark/Steve Gallacci wrote:
> >>> Spare me. If you want the damn drawing so bad, draw it yourself. If you don't know
> >>> how to draw, get out a pencil and paper and learn. Stop being just a consumer and
> >>> actually become a part of the fandom...
> >>
> >> Are you seriously claiming that those of us who can't draw, are not a
> >>part of this fandom?
> >
> >I believe that's what he said. And might I add, the same has been said
> >to me on #furry, here, and everywhere else. I still consider it
> >bullshit.
Gee, it's awfully nice of you to pass judgement on what I said even before I had the
oppotunoity to respond. Although I admit that it may have been a bad choice of words on my
part, I still hold to the belief that there is more to being a part of any scene than just
throwing money around. Just doing that shows that you're little more than a collector. It
frankly irks the nitro-injected hell out of me when people get all pissy when other
members of the 'scene' they're a part of don't jump through hoops just because they ask
them to.
GothTiger (tig...@execpc.com)
(("Fans aren't friends, you'd do well to remember that." --Sharon McCrumb, ZOMBIES OF THE
GENE POOL))
Bev Clark/Steve Gallacci
contribution to the debate seems to have been snipped out, so as posted,
the above falsely attributs it all to me.
I still think you are absolutely wrong in suggesting that there should
be fannish "memebership" performance requirements, however. (my gut
reaction would be to scream something like -explitive- you, you
-explitive- exclusionist, elitist -explitive-. but that wold be bad)
But taken to its illogically extream, that would imply that only up and
coming musicians could be fans of any particular music, or that only
athletes, perferably varisity or semi-pros could be true fans of pro sports?
Galen Wolffit
: I've been posting to a very tight-knit newsgroup, where I know people I've
: never seen in my life as well or better than people I see every day, and
: in the four years I've been hanging out there I've had a grand total of
: *two* people spontaneously decide to draw my picture (thanks again,
: Cerulean!). I don't expect to have people draw my picture on a whim any
: more than I expect them to send me checks in the mail because I don't have
: pocket change to buy a Coke.
Two? You're lucky! I've had one. And one commission. And one friend help
me actually figure out what my character looks like (bless her heart - and if
you ever see Cindy Brock running around the fandom, offer her a hug or a
slice of pizza or something!) The rest have been commissions or requests,
and to be honest, I'm flattered any time someone agrees to draw me, even as
a commission.
--
Galen Wolffit, who has had requests turned down and doesn't mind!
FCW[Wolffit]3adrw A-- C->+ D H++ M++++ P? R+ T W Z-
Sm# RLCT a23 cln++++$ e+ f->+ h-- h+>++ iw+++$ p* sm#
Galen Wolffit
: You didn't get what you wanted because you didn't make the request to anyone in
: particular, so you're having a hissy fit and blaming the entirety of furrydom for it?
: how to draw, get out a pencil and paper and learn. Stop being just a consumer and
: actually become a part of the fandom...
: GothTiger (tig...@execpc.com)
: ((Who wonders if anyone will get the message))
*cough* So in order to be a part of the fandom, one must be able to draw?
Sorry, but I have to disagree with this. I cannot draw. I've tried before,
and my attempts have been... Well, disgusting. I can write, barely, and
only when inspiration hits. Does that mean I can't be a furry fan? I sure
as hell hope not, because this is something I really like.
Come to think of it... I can't play football, does that mean I'm not allowed
to be a football fan? Naah.
Now, this doesn't mean I'm defending the guy who started this thread - In
general I agree with the comments here, that he went about it wrong. But,
just 'cause he can't draw, and went about it wrong, doesn't mean he should
leave the fandom.
--
Galen Wolffit, Professional Consumer
Anub...@aol.com
> uhm, what part of the above were you attributing to me? My actual
> contribution to the debate seems to have been snipped out, so as posted,
> the above falsely attributs it all to me.
>
> I still think you are absolutely wrong in suggesting that there should
> be fannish "memebership" performance requirements, however. (my gut
> reaction would be to scream something like -explitive- you, you
> -explitive- exclusionist, elitist -explitive-. but that wold be bad)
>
> But taken to its illogically extream, that would imply that only up and
> coming musicians could be fans of any particular music, or that only
> athletes, perferably varisity or semi-pros could be true fans of pro sports?
>
>
Also, if everyone drew their own pictures, what would happen to the artists
who try to live off their art? Or at least make some good money from it? I
personally can't draw. I've tried for years... I must have spent well over
300 dollars on tutorials and such, and I just can't do a very good job... no,
I do a horrible job (even my friends say my drawings suck). I mean like.. no
matter how long I try, I doubt I will ever be able to draw as well as... oh..
say Leonardo Da Vinchi. I could practice for five hundred years, and I doubt
I could make something as nice as the Mona Lisa. *shrug* I can't, but other
people can. Therefore, I'll pay them to do what I can't do. I consider myself
a part of fandom, because even though I do not contribute drawings and make
money off it, I still help other people make money, and thats what makes the
world go around. I mean, why bother to buy milk from the store? You could
just go buy a cow and get your own milk... same thing...
AnubisXy
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
StukaFox
: Come to think of it... I can't play football, does that mean I'm not allowed
: to be a football fan? Naah.
Hell no! It just means you'd be perfect for Green Bay!
StukaFox
Kyle Webb
>
> Galen Wolffit <ma...@axsamer.org> wrote:
>
> : Come to think of it... I can't play football, does that mean I'm not allowed
> : to be a football fan? Naah.
>
> Hell no! It just means you'd be perfect for Green Bay!
Amen!
With that comment your popularity is assured in Chicago, Stuka.
Kyle L. Webb
Hartree Fox on yiffnet
Yet another long suffering Bears fan.
Kyle Webb
> Gee, it's awfully nice of you to pass judgement on what I said even before I had the
> oppotunoity to respond. Although I admit that it may have been a bad choice of words on my
> part, I still hold to the belief that there is more to being a part of any scene than just
> throwing money around. Just doing that shows that you're little more than a collector. It
> frankly irks the nitro-injected hell out of me when people get all pissy when other
> members of the 'scene' they're a part of don't jump through hoops just because they ask
> them to.
Sounds a lot like the section of the pro-space community that was
always ticked at the people involved only because they thought space
exploration was neat, and didn't want to spend their time on political
action.
Odd that someone who is very much of the flavor that the fandom about
only liking drawings or writings about funny animals is implying that
isn't enough.
> (("Fans aren't friends, you'd do well to remember that." --Sharon McCrumb, ZOMBIES OF THE
> GENE POOL))
An interesting .sig, given the content of the post.
StukaFox
: StukaFox wrote:
:>
:> Hell no! It just means you'd be perfect for Green Bay!
: Amen!
: With that comment your popularity is assured in Chicago, Stuka.
Hey -- we of the Red and Gold are none-too-fond of the Green
and White, either. In fact, the playoff game against them
back at the beginning of January was the single biggest event
of the whole year (to date).
Why, god, WHY must football season be so short and baseball
season last so long?!
: Yet another long suffering Bears fan.
Oh, a Bear's fan . . . you DO have my sympathy! ;)
Michael Campbell
Kyle Webb wrote:
> Michael Campbell wrote:
>
> Sounds a lot like the section of the pro-space community that was
> always ticked at the people involved only because they thought space
> exploration was neat, and didn't want to spend their time on political
> action.
Yup. In the old days, when I was just a standard-issue SF fan, we referred to it as 'fanac':
Fannish Activity. You drew, or you wrote, or you published, or you organized
cons/outings/parties, or any of a hundred other things. You did something that was beneficial to
the fannish community, or at the very least your portion of it. I'm sorry to see that this is no
longer the case: You can be a fan these days by merely spending a lot of money. Call me an old
fart, but I still hold to the "Good folks give money, great folks give time" school of
contibutions.
GothtGier (tig...@execpc.com)
Bev Clark/Steve Gallacci
>Yup. In the old days, when I was just a standard-issue SF fan, we referred to it as 'fanac':
>Fannish Activity. You drew, or you wrote, or you published, or you organized
>cons/outings/parties, or any of a hundred other things. You did something that was beneficial to
>the fannish community, or at the very least your portion of it. I'm sorry to see that this is no
>longer the case: You can be a fan these days by merely spending a lot of money. Call me an old
>fart, but I still hold to the "Good folks give money, great folks give time" school of
>contibutions.
>
small minority,
followed by a larger segement of visible fans, and a still larger mass of
invisible fans.
All are important to supporting the genre, but is is only -explitives-
like you , imply some moral value hiarchy.
Not everyone CAN meet your -explitive- criteria for fannish pureity, and
who the -explitive- are you to make such demands anyway?
In a perfect world, it would be nice if everyone was pure and good,
clever and talented, and had all the free time and disposable income in
the world to support their favorite interest. But they don't. besides,
this is just a fucking fandom, ferchrisakes. There are not going to be
dead on the streets if everyone doesn't commit some desperate and heroic
effort of self-sacrifice to the cuase.
So piss off. If YOU don't like the fandom, the door is open for you too.
Whineing about how it "ought" to be, especially in such elitist and
exclusionist terms is overt fighting words to me.
I'm a fan myself, and I am absoluely enraged at your comments. You are
simply wrong to insist, even less suggest, that fans need have some
special level of participation to be true.
(edited were a long stream of explitives that would have been very
imprudent to allow to post. Use your imagination, and assume I
really mean it. yes, I am really pissed about this, the sort of thing, if
in person, might weigh the pros and cons of what the local jail might be
like, resulting from a close and personal demonstration of my reaction to
the poster and the issue)
Arbitrary criteria for conduct and participation might apply to
authritarian political extreamist organizations, but seems particularly
unsuited for followers of funny animal media.
Nick "Singe" Bousman
> wrong to want to have your character depicted doing something compleatly
> innocent and even more wrong to get miffed when your request is ignored
> amd further since no one seems to need a few extra dollars, the offer of a
> commission is hereby withdrawn as is my respect for the furry artistic
> community.
Actually.. if you had asked for a enormously sexual yiff pic with lots of
spooge and perhaps BDSM, I would have ignored that too.
Dr. Cat
: Yup. In the old days, when I was just a standard-issue SF fan, we referred to it as 'fanac':
: Fannish Activity. You drew, or you wrote, or you published, or you organized
: cons/outings/parties, or any of a hundred other things. You did something that was beneficial to
: the fannish community, or at the very least your portion of it. I'm sorry to see that this is no
: longer the case: You can be a fan these days by merely spending a lot of money. Call me an old
: fart, but I still hold to the "Good folks give money, great folks give time" school of
: contibutions.
In MY opinion, it isn't necessary to do "fanac" OR spend money. Simply
hanging around with other furries and enjoying yourself is MORE than
welcome, as it ought to be in any hobby (and is in most of them).
The primary role of most hobbies is social. So if, in fact, somebody's
friends in the fandom also enjoy hanging around with them, that person is
"contributing" by providing pleasant conversation to their friends. I
think that's a great thing, purrsonally.
Mind you, someone that's not even providing conversation I have no
problems with either. Presumably that'd be someone who just reads
newsgroups and looks at web pages and stuff, never posting or talking or
coming to a con or anything. Well, that person isn't providing any
noticable drain on anybody's time or resources, and they're enjoying
themselves and being an "audience" for writers and artists who (most of
them) want to have an audience, so what's the big deal?
Casual hobbyists would never make complaints like this. It's the "this
hobby has to be very important to us" types like the BFs and the BF
opponents that get all upset about whether someone's "contributing" or not.
More and more every day I start to see the BFs and their opponents as
really belonging in the same category ("people that let the fandom become
too important to them"), rather than being in two different categories
like they think they are.
*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
Dr. Cat / Dragon's Eye Productions || Free alpha test:
*-------------------------------------------** http://www.bga.com/furcadia
Furcadia - a new graphic mud for PCs! || Let your imagination soar!
*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
(Disclaimer: If you're not having pleasant conversations with fellow
fans, but only arguments, there's a simple way to determine whether
you're still contributing to the fandom in some way. If you have to keep
finding new people to argue with because the old ones keep drifting away,
you're not contributing. But if the same people keep arguing with you
for a long time, then obviously they're addicted to arguing with you,
you're in a "dysfunctional relationship", and they really like it deep
down even though they can't admit it to themself. If they REALLY hated
arguing with you they would stop! So in that case you are entertaining
them in some sense, and here's your Official Fandom Membership Card.)
(Disclaimer disclaimer: Please take the argument to email anyway though.
The world record category for "longest a.f.f. flamewar" has been removed
from the Guiness Book now, so there's no point trying for it any longer.)