A "Clean" Convention
Steve Carter
adult material allowed. Between the snitting and political & social
arguments, I see a few logistical problems that folks aren't addressing.
For one, who would come to support such a con? Patronage would be no
problem if it were a small convention like Mephit, but in terms of dealers
most of the biggest names (Mailbox Books, Radio Comix, Terrie Smith &
Michelle Light) would have to leave about half their inventory at home.
Second, hosting a major event with any staying power requires that it be
*for* A, not just *against* B. There must be something to draw the guests
in, rather than just to keep unwanteds out. It would target an audience
which actively desires clean material, and most of those are parents.
Parents, however, already have enough bills to pay in the very fact of
having smalls in their lives in the first place.
Even singles, active solicitors of clean material, such as (I will not say
SugarDaddy!) Michael Russell can't support an entire convention.
Third, if you're going to ban erotica, you should also ban excessive
violence. This is the ugly stepchild of furrdom that gets overshadowed by
all the throbbing organs and flowing juices. As far as I'm concerned
violence is more reprehensible than sexuality because I've MUCH firsthand
experience with both.
Still, a G-rated convention is a good goal, but would require a larger
paradigm shift than I think most furrii are capable of right now.
Dragon Magic
> adult material allowed. Between the snitting and political & social
> arguments, I see a few logistical problems that folks aren't addressing.
I thought I had addressed the business side well. Though, it could still
work as a gathering, maybe with just artists setting up in a room for
doing work and selling prints, etc., but dealers would almost all have
to be turned down, it seems. Not all, but you'd be lucky to have a
dealer say, "It's a long drive, and we'd have to leave a lot home, but
maybe we can turn a profit at a new, small show..."
> For one, who would come to support such a con? Patronage would be no
> problem if it were a small convention like Mephit, but in terms of dealers
> most of the biggest names (Mailbox Books, Radio Comix, Terrie Smith &
> Michelle Light) would have to leave about half their inventory at home.
Not only this, but as far as I recall, those entities are all US Americans,
and would require a visit through customs to make it to this show. That
would entail some duties for their merchandise, plus the necessity to have
converted money beforehand. There's just a lot of thought that would
need to be put into this. But it could still work if it were made smaller
to begin with.
> Second, hosting a major event with any staying power requires that it be
> *for* A, not just *against* B. There must be something to draw the guests
> in, rather than just to keep unwanteds out. It would target an audience
> which actively desires clean material, and most of those are parents.
> Parents, however, already have enough bills to pay in the very fact of
> having smalls in their lives in the first place.
And there are also the severely religious, not just the gentle religious
types.
I'm talking about the people who would probably not be in furry if it
weren't
for their inner animal, pretty much.
I doubt people just go to a show ONLY for smut, but sometimes they
only shop for smut. And if the con is about a month apart from another
major convention, where they could get smut, they may just skip this
show to go to that show, seeing that it may be a better show off the
bat. Who knows? I don't think such a show has attempted to surface
so far, so it's hard to tell how it would work out in the market today.
> Even singles, active solicitors of clean material, such as (I will not say
> SugarDaddy!) Michael Russell can't support an entire convention.
Well, if the show is a shoestring budget show, and badges cost maybe
$10 for the weekend, with just workshops and an artists' alley, and
the staff is volunteer only, I can see that it can be supported by one
big spender, maybe with sponsorship patronage or something? One
$500 badge for that one person, and maybe 100 more at $10, then
you could have it recoop.
> Third, if you're going to ban erotica, you should also ban excessive
> violence. This is the ugly stepchild of furrdom that gets overshadowed by
> all the throbbing organs and flowing juices. As far as I'm concerned
> violence is more reprehensible than sexuality because I've MUCH firsthand
> experience with both.
This was a major argument I had at GenCon just last week. We were
told that adult materials should be covered up when in general viewing
areas that maybe kids could see. We should clearly mark their locations
or holders, so that people would know that they were going to be looking
at adult materials, and we could stop kids from looking at them when no
parent is around.
What got me is that the convention was going around asking artists and
dealers to tape over nipples and other female and male genitalia, but
tape sellers were showcasing HK Cinema action films uncensored without
complaint, people were selling artwork that was fairly violent, even one
seller had tee shirts out, one of which showed a dragon with a knight
firmly clenched in his claw, his other claw flicking the head off the
knight,
flying across the width of the tee shirt with a blood trail from the body
to the head. And yet, not one con staff member asked for this tee shirt
to be put back or out of public view.
It is a weird standard here, violence is widely accepted, but nudity is
considered intolerable. Sex shouldn't be considered as awful as, say,
Reservoir Dogs. But sex-movies get NC-17 ratings, and Reservoir
Dogs gets an R rating. Go figure.
Sorry to get off in a tangent, just agreeing with Steve here.
> Still, a G-rated convention is a good goal, but would require a larger
> paradigm shift than I think most furrii are capable of right now.
Maybe it should be considered a fantasy and furry convention? If you
can draw a larger audience who may accept a furry theme as well,
you can draw a wider array of people in. Who knows? But it
definitely needs more thought than what I see so far. But the con people
are making notes for a business plan, which is good. Very good.
TygerMoon Foxx
for is "tasteful". I have seen some beautifully rendered erotic pieces
which only classify as adult because the subject matter depicted is
naked and anatomically correct. To me there is literally a world of
difference between these types of displays and the spooge and
scourge-o-matic artwork with its overexaggereated excretions and gory
weals. Some of my favorite classic artwork from which I take
inspiration (Reuben, Michaelangelo's "David", Venus di Milo, countless
others) are considered acceptable by the public at large.
If a "clean" convention is to be started, I would surmise that it would
have to begin from scratch rather than trying to impose radically
different guidelines on an existing convention. To do so would probably
kill that convention's attendance. When people attend a convention,
they get used to a certain atmosphere and come to expect certain things
from it. Anthrocon doesn't do too badly as a "clean" con with the adult
material clearly marked and access to that material tightly monitored
and with definite hours for adult content posted. No matter what you
do, you are still going to get a few people pushing the envelope as far
as they can but this year I saw less of them than in any previous year
I've attended. For the first time in three years of con attendance, not
once was I as a female furry inundated with males who don't seem to
understand the meaning of the word "no". I was out fairly late both
Friday and Saturday and was not subjected to the overly enthusiastic
chained couples doing whatever they felt they wanted to do because it
was "adult hours".
I guess what I'm saying is, I see no need for a "clean" convention when
the careful guidelines put in place already provide that most of the
time. The only purpose a "clean" convention would serve would be as a
form of censorship and a means by which the organizer could impose his
or her values on the congoers. Not much fun, if you ask me. As long as
the adult area stays adult and the yiffers keep their moneymakers out of
my face and personal space, I'm happy.
--
In Light and Shadow,
TygerMoon Foxx
----------------------------------------------------------------
I am darkness and light, the shadow hunter and king of the sun.
My claws hold the earth, my tongue tastes the sky.
I am steadfast and strong, compassionate and caring.
I am tiger, and my words are pure.
----------------------------------------------------------------
"Welcome to the 21st century. Dang, everybody's still stupid."
-----Simtra Kyphrion Firefox
"Ah...springtime and the assholes are in full bloom..." ----- Bo
Atara
<9kovkm$r4f$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>:
>...been watching with some interest the threads about a convention with
>no adult material allowed. Between the snitting and political & social
>arguments, I see a few logistical problems that folks aren't
>addressing.
I think one of the biggest misconceptions already going about the convention is
that it's going to be "Yerf" clean. The stated rating for the con will be R,
which includes most zines and prints that I've seen at cons - adult art show
notwithstanding.
You used to example of Mailbox Books, so I will too. =) (Not picking on you,
Sean!) To get a general idea of what's being planned, the "banned" items would
be items marked in red from mailbox books: items containing graphic sex and
violence. In the comics section, I counted 88 titles that fall under the R or
less rating, and only 12 that fall under NC-17. The list of names offering
prints under the G-rating alone is more than 10 times longer than the list of
names offering NC-17 prints.
Again, nothing as to content or rules regarding what's allowed has been
decided; I'm just going off what was stated in the original proposal. I've
simply found it interesting that people assume "no porn" means "no nudes."
There's a big difference between the two. (For me, anyway.)
And if the con doesn't succeed because of its art policies, then it will be a)
no sweat off anyones' backs but those running and organizing the con, and b)
proof that furry really DOES mean sex. ;)
--
Atara
"Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus."
http://www.FurNation.com/Atara/
***What doesn't fit in my email addy? NADA.***
Atara
mouseboy...@mindspring.com (Steve Carter) wrote in
<9kovkm$r4f$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>:
>Second, hosting a major event with any staying power requires that it
>be *for* A, not just *against* B. There must be something to draw the
>guests in, rather than just to keep unwanteds out.
The draw will be the workshops and panels. Not all conventions are centered
around the dealer's room. Business conventions in which people learn how to be
better pencil-pushers and the like are more content-oriented. I've never gone
to a professional convention and thought, "Oh boy, I'm going buy some really
nice stationary." I go to learn something.
The how-tos are going to be much more important at this con than the how-muchs.
Dragon Magic
> decided; I'm just going off what was stated in the original proposal. I've
> simply found it interesting that people assume "no porn" means "no nudes."
> There's a big difference between the two. (For me, anyway.)
First off, from what I understand now, the reason for this direction is not
so much a direct taste, but local decency laws, if I'm not mistaken? It
would
depend on those laws, then, as well. Maybe the laws state that nudity=porn?
And then, who decides when it goes to porn and is no longer tasteful nudity?
Just showing nipples and breasts? Vaginas and penises? Just don't show
spooge or intercourse? Implied spooge or intercourse only? You get the
drift.
We haven't fully heard what the con's full definition is yet, because I
think
they're still discussing that.
> And if the con doesn't succeed because of its art policies, then it will
be a)
> no sweat off anyones' backs but those running and organizing the con, and
b)
> proof that furry really DOES mean sex. ;)
No, it doesn't mean that furry really does mean sex. It means that it's
unlikely
people will gather from all across this continent to a convention, spending
money
and using up vacation or personal time, just to go to a clean show. Believe
me,
if furry does mean sex, there would be no Yerf. And Yerf still gets uploads.
Dragon Magic
centered
> around the dealer's room. Business conventions in which people learn how
to be
> better pencil-pushers and the like are more content-oriented. I've never
gone
> to a professional convention and thought, "Oh boy, I'm going buy some
really
> nice stationary." I go to learn something.
Have you ever run a convention? There's more to it than just saying, "We'll
be
at this hotel/convention hall."
All furry cons require money, period. Why? Because no one's holding the
convention at their own hotel/home/apartment/etc. Not only do you usually
have to provide payment for the rental of the space up front, but also
hotels
generally require a downpayment to secure blocking of rooms, in case you
cancel or otherwise don't get the crowd you expected, they don't lose out
on the rooms you blocked. Then there's the advertising. Can't really tell
people you have a show without at least getting the word out. Guests?
Gotta pay the ways there for the big guests to get them there, and then
you have to get their hotels paid for, etc.
Ah, don't forget getting badges made up, other items as well. Don't want
just anyone getting into the con when you've spent all that money trying to
get it setup. Volunteers help out at the con to maintain order, but if
you're
all volunteer, you may run into problems, so make it worth your while to
have head-guys who are there to help out definitely. Gotta get their rooms
and possibly food, etc.
So when you just have workshops and artists' galleries, well, there's not
much money coming back in. You'll have to hope that the sales of the
badges will recoop your losses. But you can't charge them the same price
as a con where people know they'll get a full dealer's room, art gallery,
workshops, fun events, big guests, etc. Why? Because they would just
go to that con instead of yours, if they had money to go to only one.
All in all, you have to view all conventions as a business venture. Even
if you don't intend to make money or are in it for the money, you can't
just expect to shell out hundreds, if not thousands, every year to keep
the con going when people will continue to want it to grow. Any show
that's pretty stagnate will lose its interest with people easily, even if it
has such a moral proposal for its guests.
So no, a dealer's room is essential to ensure that you can get money back
into the show. When people come to buy, more people come to sell, and
more money is paid for the show itself. Why? Because it's economical to
pay the $200 a table if you're going to get 10,000 people into the show,
who are going to want to perhaps buy what you're selling. When you are
asked to pay $200 a table for a show that may get 500 people just there
for maybe the workshops, and you have to leave about half your stock
at home, why would you bother?
> The how-tos are going to be much more important at this con than the
how-muchs.
Again, you can easily have workshops AND a dealer's hall and not
compromise the show's integrity. The fact is, though, it will continue
to cost money to keep holding workshops with no way to rebuild
capital for another show. Simply selling badges will maybe cover
the costs of the hotel, insurance, etc., but may not get you the money
for guests, advertising, etc.
It's something that needs to be thought about hard. Is it going to be
profitable, or at least break even? If not, who will cover the extra costs?
Atara
<DYTb7.90581$dd1.11...@typhoon.neo.rr.com>:
>No, it doesn't mean that furry really does mean sex. It means that it's
>unlikely people will gather from all across this continent to a
>convention, spending money and using up vacation or personal time,
>just to go to a clean show. Believe me, if furry does mean sex, there
>would be no Yerf. And Yerf still gets uploads.
Yes, Yerf gets uploads. But what you're saying is that the only way to get
furry fans to cough up money is to have smut. If there's no smut, they won't
attend. Therefore, smut is what makes conventions run. Yes?
I don't have anything against smut; I have a fair collection of it. I do think
this will be an interesting experiment, however.
AJL
> Well, if the show is a shoestring budget show, and badges cost maybe
> $10 for the weekend, with just workshops and an artists' alley, and
> the staff is volunteer only, I can see that it can be supported by one
> big spender, maybe with sponsorship patronage or something? One
> $500 badge for that one person, and maybe 100 more at $10, then
> you could have it recoop.
Ok, time for your reality check:
CritterConDiego cost well over $2300 to plan, setup and run, including
room rental, insurance, food, and badge materials (about 25 cents per
Badge-A-Minit button)
Sales of memberships and dealer tables, profits from T-Shirt sales, plus
the $100 or so donated to the kitty brought in less than $1850.
(Yes, that means I spent nearly $500 of my own money for this)
All this was accomplished with an ESTABLISHED presense of over 200
furries who would be in the area for Comic-Con anyways. We had 250 or
more people show up at the event (officially 240 membeships, but we
weren't enforcing memberships very closely).
Expecting a turnout of more than 50-75 furries at a first-time event is
more realistic... unless there is already a larger established presence
in the area.
If you think that $1500 ($500 plus 100x$10) is enough for a
shoestring-budget convention, you are sadly underestimating the costs
involved. CritterConDiego is about as "shoestring" as conventions get,
and it cost more than that *without* programming panels or a dance. Add
either one of those, and the expenses start to go up exponentially.
Anyways, this was not a flame or a rant... just a wake-up call.
--Darrel.
AJL
> The draw will be the workshops and panels. Not all conventions are centered
> around the dealer's room. Business conventions in which people learn how to be
> better pencil-pushers and the like are more content-oriented. I've never gone
> to a professional convention and thought, "Oh boy, I'm going buy some really
> nice stationary." I go to learn something.
You've also probably had your boss, or a vendor pay the admission fee
for you, too. Have you looked at how much "seminar" shows cost for the
attendees?
Getting in for less than $200 per person, per day, would be a *cheap*
show.
Dragon Magic
> >unlikely people will gather from all across this continent to a
> >convention, spending money and using up vacation or personal time,
> >just to go to a clean show. Believe me, if furry does mean sex, there
> >would be no Yerf. And Yerf still gets uploads.
>
> Yes, Yerf gets uploads. But what you're saying is that the only way to get
> furry fans to cough up money is to have smut. If there's no smut, they
won't
> attend. Therefore, smut is what makes conventions run. Yes?
>
> I don't have anything against smut; I have a fair collection of it. I do
think
> this will be an interesting experiment, however.
No, what I'm saying is, and what Steve has pointed out, you will lose out on
dealers, artists and attendees when you say, "No this", when this has been
in
the dealer, artists or attendee's convention agenda in some major form. Why
go to Clean Con 2002 in July in Montreal, a 1500 mile drive, when, say,
Further Confusion 2002 in May in San Diego, a 1500 mile drive, has
everything Clean Con has, plus the smut?
Now if FC said, "Nothing but smut", yeah, you'd lose attendees them, too,
because people would not want to attend something that was only smut, just
as people would not want to attend something that had no smut at all. You
lose attendence the more roadblocks you setup.
But the major point is, SEX SELLS. Period. Dealers, artists, etc., all find
that anything that's been considered smut here, will bring in the dollars,
will
make their trip to the con more profitable, and will weigh more in what they
attend. If a dealer or artist can only attend one show a year, and there are
twelve cons which allow smut this year, and one clean show, which do you
think a dealer or artist who also has smut will do? Think he or she will
just
abandon that part of their sales force just to attend a novel idea? Hardly.
Furry fans cough up money for smut and non-smut. If non-smut never sold,
no one would bother doing the prints, after all. So you've misinterpreted my
statement. But anyone who limits a major portion of sales at any con will
see a loss of income from that show, period. Just simple economics.
Dragon Magic
> shoestring-budget convention, you are sadly underestimating the costs
> involved. CritterConDiego is about as "shoestring" as conventions get,
> and it cost more than that *without* programming panels or a dance. Add
> either one of those, and the expenses start to go up exponentially.
[snip]
Actually, the $500 is based on an actual event. In 1997, my friend
wanted to run his own con, but only for friends. He rented out two
rooms at a hotel down in Dayton, Ohio, about four hours from his
home, and blocked up some rooms for the people to have there.
He didn't get insurance, of course, since it was for friends, and didn't
need the badges. He just asked everyone attending to help defer
the costs by paying a fair share of the costs, and pay for their own
rooms. They could share as they needed, he didn't care.
Cost about $450 to run for two days. Had about 20 people attend.
Wasn't that bad, actually. So yes, if you do want a shoestring budget
show for under $1500 today, you can do it. It just won't be too much
of a public event, really. (:
For a small, first year show, though, expect easily at least $3000
to get the right promotion and hotel space, and escalate that as
you figure in more guests, rooms, events, days, etc. I'd love to
hear from the big guys exactly how much it cost to run Anthrocon
or Further Confusion, etc. Just to compare it to the figures that
I've estimated for cons. I expect it's well into the tens of thousands
by now.
> Anyways, this was not a flame or a rant... just a wake-up call.
Well, yours is based on your actual experience in California. I'm
not sure how the costs displace throughout the country for hotels
and taxes and insurance. But hey, the fact is still, conventions cost
money, and unless you have a good plan to get the convention to
pay for itself, it's going to cost you a lot of money. Period.
Glen Wooten
> ...been watching with some interest the threads about a convention with
> no adult material allowed. Between the snitting and political & social
> arguments, I see a few logistical problems that folks aren't addressing.
>
> For one, who would come to support such a con? Patronage would be no
> problem if it were a small convention like Mephit, but in terms of
> dealers most of the biggest names (Mailbox Books, Radio Comix, Terrie
> Smith & Michelle Light) would have to leave about half their inventory
> at home.
Well, speaking for Terrie, I have to say that "half" is somewhat of a high
figure. Yes, Terrie does some adult stuff - but it's not the majority -
although it may be what some people fixate on. In the case of the others,
"half" is WAY too high a figure.
But this does bring up a problem - Customs. I'm not sure how it would
work the other way, but Canadians wanting to sell in America have to jump
through all sorts of hoops to get things done - I can't see it being
simple the other way. It's also common that Canadian Customs inspectors
can be rather arbitrary in what they classify as "pornography", and
destroy (no, not turn back, destroy). How Customs would deal with things
needs to be VERY clearly established - and this isn't a dig at Canada,
it's a dig at Customs the world over. IF your agent didn't have enough
bran this morning, you could have a hard time with him.
When wandering across a border (ANY border) to do business, you have to be
concerned with Customs, currency exchange, and GST/PST/excise taxes - BOTH
ways.
--
Glen Wooten
_________________________________________________________
| primary: jag...@rexx.com | secondary: leo...@aol.com |
_________________________________________________________
| Terrie's web page: http://www.rexx.com/~jaguar |
_________________________________________________________
AJL
> Cost about $450 to run for two days. Had about 20 people attend.
> Wasn't that bad, actually. So yes, if you do want a shoestring budget
> show for under $1500 today, you can do it. It just won't be too much
> of a public event, really. (:
I thought we were talking about a 100 person convention... what you
described, with only 20 people, was just a small room party and it
*still* cost $450.
> I'd love to
> hear from the big guys exactly how much it cost to run Anthrocon
> or Further Confusion, etc. Just to compare it to the figures that
> I've estimated for cons. I expect it's well into the tens of thousands
> by now.
ConFurence is still one of the big guys... over 700 members each year in
2000 and 2001. I needed to have over $30,000 in advance funds this past
year to keep the hotel happy, but that was also to secure the next two
years (2002 and 2003) at the same hotel at a significantly reduced cost
than this year's event.
> Well, yours is based on your actual experience in California. I'm
> not sure how the costs displace throughout the country for hotels
> and taxes and insurance. But hey, the fact is still, conventions cost
> money, and unless you have a good plan to get the convention to
> pay for itself, it's going to cost you a lot of money. Period.
Unless you go to some mom-n-pop hotel with teenie meeting rooms, you are
going to have to deal with a standard corporate contract and Banquet
Event Orders to reserve the meeting space. Standard verbage in those
contracts is that you will hold your own insurance that will name the
hotel. Don't expect to get away without the insurance, as most hotels
will want to see the coverage binder before letting you set up.
The ConFurence Group had a $1 Million policy for CF12 and $50,000 for
CritterConDiego. the premiums for the two shows cost about $1000
total. I'm going to be buying a year-round small-business policy before
ConFurence 2002, which will save money in the long run.
--Darrel.
AJL
> Why
> go to Clean Con 2002 in July in Montreal, a 1500 mile drive, when, say,
> Further Confusion 2002 in May in San Diego, a 1500 mile drive, has
> everything Clean Con has, plus the smut?
Wow... you got a whole lot of mixed up stuff in that one little
paragraph...
The "Clean Con" (I believe) is being planned for August, not July.
Further Confusion is in January, and it is in Northern California (San
Mateo?) not San Diego.
ConFurence 2002 is April 26-28, in Burbank (Los Angeles area)
CritterConDiego is the one in San Diego, and that's in July.
...I just wanted to clear that up.
--Darrel.
AJL
> AJL <grap...@ajlvideo.com> wrote:
> : If you think that $1500 ($500 plus 100x$10) is enough for a
> : shoestring-budget convention, you are sadly underestimating the costs
> : involved. CritterConDiego is about as "shoestring" as conventions get,
> : and it cost more than that *without* programming panels or a dance. Add
> : either one of those, and the expenses start to go up exponentially.
> $1500 would be pretty light spending, especially for a startup con when
> there are lots of initial one time expenses. On the other hand, I'm not
> sure what Darrel is going on about as far as costs soaring with a dance or
> programming panels. The cost for that space, if you are willing to risk
> guaranteeing a certain number of room nights, ought to be nothing.
CritterConDiego exists in a strange scenario where room-blocks were not
easy to obtain, hence the meeting space is paid for directly. Comic-Con
takes up nearly 100% of all the rooms available that weekend, and we
rent the meeting space at a discount because it would otherwise be
vacant.
*If* I were able to get a room block (and I will be trying to get one
for next year's CCD) and *if* I am able to get enough people to rent the
rooms to pay for the space, then you are correct, the space is paid for.
However, the more space you ask the hotel for, the more rooms they are
going to require in the block to pay for it. And if you don't fill a
minimum percentage of your room block, you pay a penalty for their not
being able to rent the rooms to other guests. The risk, and therfore
the potential expense is significantly higher if you have more meeting
space.
> It can pay off big when they think 400 room nights might be walking
> over to the competion.
For a con to fill 400 room nights first time out would be a miracle,
unless there is already a large installed base of people coming into the
area for the same weekend. A "clean con" first time out can probably
expect 200 members or less, and maybe 80-100 room nights. If I was
running it, I wouldn't budget for more than 25 to 35 dealers tables,
either. If the first year goes well, then the following year can be
planned larger... but even at those small numbers, you're looking at a
significant expense.
--Darrel.
Dragon Magic
> paragraph...
Just sampling, nothing set in stone. (:
As an example only. I knew it was all off, but wanted to tell them
that there was more to think of than just what the con was.
Glen Wooten
> Dragon Magic <cb...@dragonmagic.net> wrote:
> : All furry cons require money, period. Why? Because no one's holding the
> : convention at their own hotel/home/apartment/etc. Not only do you usually
> : have to provide payment for the rental of the space up front, but also
> : hotels
> : generally require a downpayment to secure blocking of rooms, in case you
> : cancel or otherwise don't get the crowd you expected, they don't lose out
> : on the rooms you blocked.
>
> some more or less token security deposit, but the room block certainly
> isn't paid for in advance and if you block enough rooms, they usually give
> you function space for free. It's not a one sided deal.
The "standard" contract (which is always different) has an estimated cost
for the meeting space based on the number of room nights you are
projecting (with graduated penalties for not meeting the numbers), a
certain amount of catering (catering wants their cut as well - if you have
no catered events, expect a higher meeting space cost), and a security
deposit. The final bill is the most frightening one - since there will
always be little "extras" you weren't expecting.
> : Then there's the advertising. Can't really tell
> : people you have a show without at least getting the word out. Guests?
> : Gotta pay the ways there for the big guests to get them there, and then
> : you have to get their hotels paid for, etc.
>
> Guess what, a lot of hotels will give you a certain number of comped room
> nights for a given number of room nights rented in addition to function
> space.
Yes, but the ratio tends to be rather high. If you get one comped night
for 25 room nights, you're doing pretty good (and 25 is a VERY low
figure...)
Michael Russell
Steve Carter wrote:
Hi, I'm Mike, from Canmore ... *snicker*
> For one, who would come to support such a con?
I would love to see some actual marketing and demographics research
about those who attend furry cons. I know there are many reasons
why people attend. I attend to buy art, meet friends, perform in
the puppet shows if possible, and maybe vacation in the surrounding
area.
There was good attendance at the early Anthrocon conventions in
Albany, and these were fairly "clean" in comparison to all other
furry conventions.
Based upon the common complaint I hear from artists regarding
lack of money, especially understandable for the college students,
how many artists will attend if they are unsure about the money
they can earn from the event? Attending a convention can get
expensive, especially if travelling long distances.
> Second, hosting a major event with any staying power requires that it be
> *for* A, not just *against* B.
I will agree that a convention has a better chance of success
when it is for something and promotes a reason to attend. Meetings
that are designed to exclude as the motivation usually do not last
or have the enthusiastic support.
> Even singles, active solicitors of clean material, such as (I will not say
> SugarDaddy!) Michael Russell can't support an entire convention.
*smile*
Also, keep in mind, the buyers of clean material have higher
expectations regarding quality, subject, context, and so forth.
Patrons of clean material are more discriminating.
I think the goal of this proposed convention are praiseworthy.
I just wish it was in Calgary instead of Ottawa. *smile*
Also, it is expensive to get to Ottawa from Florida. Probably
explains why we see a lot of Canada license tags on cars ...
> Third, if you're going to ban erotica, you should also ban excessive
> violence.
Good point. This is why some films can get an "R" rating even
when there is nothing sexual in the film.
Having the convention in Canada does present an interesting problem.
I would figure it would be a good idea to research the Canadian
rating systems and use those as a reference. Something that might
be "PG" rated in the USA might get a "M" rating in Canada??
--
Cheers, Mike 'Flafox' Russell
Vicki Fox Productions (mrus...@ix.netcom.com, Vick...@hotmail.com)
The World of Vicki Fox ( http://www.VickiFox.com )
Ben_Raccoon
news:3B702E7D...@ajlvideo.com...
> Dragon Magic wrote:
> > Cost about $450 to run for two days. Had about 20 people attend.
> > Wasn't that bad, actually. So yes, if you do want a shoestring budget
> > show for under $1500 today, you can do it. It just won't be too much
> > of a public event, really. (:
>
> I thought we were talking about a 100 person convention... what you
> described, with only 20 people, was just a small room party and it
> *still* cost $450.
How much did last year's CritterCon cost? It seemed a lot closer to the
original room party idea, and was a little "cleaner" than the more recent
one.
--
www.furnation.com/ben_raccoon
Greylocks, aka Marc Lacourciere
con will help reduce them.
For example; no dance.
Why? Several reasons...
Not enough space, too costly, and the best reason of all: There are at
least 5 excellent ultramodern dance clubs within a few blocks of
walking. Who knows we may be able to get free entry to some of those
clubs?
Costs will be further reduced by avoiding as many administrative costs
as possible. We dont need to re-equip the entire security crew for
example. Communications are covered. Computers are not a major issue.
Artistic knowledge is excellent, and the staff has a clue.
We also dont expect to achieve a miracle. This will be a small con, a
first con, and an experiment all at once.
It runs on the willingness and dedication of a few who are willing to
try instead of just talking about it.
It has to deal with local and federal laws, so we have to be creative
about the constraints. How to do this? We'll do our best to offer
interesting alternatives. What? Just wait, we're working on it.
Greylocks, aka Marc Lacourciere
bad days, and they can be as extreme as the US customs are about
'un-allowed' things.
Seizures can and do happen.
When we Canadians travel to AC or other cons, we have to think about all
this. It goes both ways.
We are not establishing a No Porn rule just to get folks annoyed, but
for very practical reasons. 90% are legal, the rest is because we want
to try something new.
Remember, No Porn does not mean No Adult, ok?
Trust Jeff to keep you all informed when more details happen. This
convention only came to life last Saturday, let it grow a bit :)
Blue Streak
"Michael Russell" <mrus...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3B7046A9...@ix.netcom.com...
> Having the convention in Canada does present an interesting problem.
> I would figure it would be a good idea to research the Canadian
> rating systems and use those as a reference. Something that might
> be "PG" rated in the USA might get a "M" rating in Canada??
Absolutely not! In fact, there have been cases where the opposite is true.
Brief nudity and language is generally not as big a deal; for example when a
movie is broadcast on both a Canadian and a U.S. television network, the
U.S. version is always more censored. We have many of the same pornographic
magazines (like Penthouse) and comic books (like Bondage Fairies). In
Ontario, women are legally permitted to go topless in public (although none
do, it's still considered a social no-no). And in Quebec, touching is
permitted in strip clubs. Yes, the limits on what is legal is lower in
Canada, but until you reach that ceiling, Canada is actually more lenient
than most states in the U.S.!
ilr
Damnit Mouseboy, don't track that stuff in here.
This is AFF, you're supposed to get rid of Reality before you
come in. Go try again, there's a Reality-Scraper out on the porch.
;)
-Ilr
AJL
> How much did last year's CritterCon cost? It seemed a lot closer to the
> original room party idea, and was a little "cleaner" than the more recent
> one.
With roughly the same number of people (240 sold memberships), but with
only 10 dealer's tables, 2000's CritterConDiego cost just over $1,000
including food. It took in $3.04 less than it cost.
I had a better deal on the meeting space but because of the shape of the
room it couldn't fit as many tables as this year's con.
We were able to fit in a dance because the room we had was poolside, and
we were able to use the patio area adjacent to the pool without paying
for it.
--Darrel.
PeterCat
> For a small, first year show, though, expect easily at least $3000 to
> get the right promotion and hotel space, and escalate that as you
> figure in more guests, rooms, events, days, etc. I'd love to hear
> from the big guys exactly how much it cost to run Anthrocon or
> Further Confusion, etc. Just to compare it to the figures that I've
> estimated for cons. I expect it's well into the tens of thousands by
> now.
The reason many cons (not just furry, but SF/anime/comic/whatever)
charge about $40 for a membership is because that's the break-even point
these days. So to get a ballpark figure for the budget of a con (for
this year), multiply its (previous year's) attendance by $40.
Smaller/startup cons aren't exempt from the rule of thumb, but have to
take some wild guesses as to attendance (and thus, projected revenue).
The organizers of a new, small con should expect to have to raise about
$10,000-$15,000 amongst themselves (no-interest loans) to fund the first
year. The money received from memberships, etc. goes into the bank to
pay _next_ year's expenses, with a small portion paying off part of the
startup loans over a number of years. Otherwise you're going to go nuts
trying to manage cash flow, and running short of cash because there
haven't been enough folks preregistering yet.
--
The Furry InfoPage! http://www.tigerden.com/infopage/furry/
pete...@Furry.fan.org (PeterCat) Rhal on FurryMUCK (come cuddle!)
--
"I can't believe what he's doing with those shiitake mushrooms!"
Watch "Iron Chef," Fridays and Saturdays at 10pm (ET) on Food Network!
AJL
> : convention at their own hotel/home/apartment/etc. Not only do you usually
> : have to provide payment for the rental of the space up front, but also
> : hotels
> : generally require a downpayment to secure blocking of rooms, in case you
> : cancel or otherwise don't get the crowd you expected, they don't lose out
> : on the rooms you blocked.
>
> some more or less token security deposit, but the room block certainly
> isn't paid for in advance and if you block enough rooms, they usually give
> you function space for free. It's not a one sided deal.
The hotel will look at the number of RESERVED rooms in your block
usually 30 days before the event, and ask for a deposit according to
those numbers and your contracted obligations.
This is why when people don't reserve their rooms early, it hurts the
convention so much. It also allows more room for the hotel to
mistakenly reserve people at different rates, or for them to release the
remaining unreserved rooms in your block so that late reservations need
to pay prevailing prices. This happens at almost every con I've been
to.
Lesson: Reserve your room as early as possible. It's not *just* to
ensure that there will be space, it *really* helps the con-com negotiate
final arrangements with the hotel.
> Guess what, a lot of hotels will give you a certain number of comped room
> nights for a given number of room nights rented in addition to function
> space.
There's usually a 50:1 ratio of paid rooms to comp'd rooms in most hotel
contracts. If you have 400 room nights used at the end of the con, then
the con gets a credit of 8 room nights deducted from the final bill.
This usually pays for 2 rooms for the entire weekend... not *much* of a
credit, but it does help a little.
Jeff Novotny
> This isn't my experience from working a number of cons. They usually want
> some more or less token security deposit, but the room block certainly
> isn't paid for in advance and if you block enough rooms, they usually give
> you function space for free. It's not a one sided deal.
Right. That's my experience too. Of course, you have to block an awful
lot of rooms to get everything for free. But working on a larger scale
will still earn sizable discounts.
They'd rather have us in their space than the Rogers and Smith wedding
reception because we will block a certain number of suites, will pay for
an executive suite or two, and will bring traffic into their hotel who
will eat at their restaurant, plug coins into their vending machine,
etc., and will be exposed to the hotel chain, hopefully in a positive
manner.
Best;
Jeff