A Million and One Ways

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Michael McGee

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Mar 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/30/97
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There are a million and one ways to help furry fandom grow.
What's yours?
Mine is, to create, write, and get someone to draw a furry comic. A
nice, high quality, furry comic, that'll sell over 10,000 issues. A
furry comic that'll have great story, great art, and that will come out
every month. A furry book that'll mix characterization, action,
adventure, romance, psychodrama, and social commentary. A furry book
that'll be read by mainstream readers and furry fans alike. A furry
comic to burn and destroy the myths that swirl and swarm around us, to
show us as a group of people who like furries - and that's it. But most
of all, a furry comic that will get me a letter saying "You know
something, Mike? I really like this book." And maybe, just maybe, a
furry comic to pave the way for other furry comics.
Will I ever get there? Maybe, maybe not. But that's the way I'll try
and help this fandom grow. That's my way.
What's yours?
--
-Mike
"I wish I was bitten by a radioactive corporation -then at least I'd be
organized!" - Peter Perker

Karl Jorgensen

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Mar 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/31/97
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In alt.fan.furry Michael McGee <mcg...@REMOVETOREPLY.cadvision.com> wrote:
: There are a million and one ways to help furry fandom grow.
: What's yours?

Well, the things I support are far too controversial to post here because
they don't involve anything really stupid like Mass Graves and going on
jihads against all those awful furverts, so naturally anyone who agrees
with me is going to be accused of wearing rose-colored eyewear and
sticking bananas in their ears.[1]

But what the hell, I'll post it anyway. -:)

I call it....

- XYDEXX'S 10 WAYS TO IMPROVE FURRY FANDOM -

The solutions I support are creative, not destructive. They emphasize
working to build furry fandom up instead of tearing it down. Working
with each other instead of fighting each other. They involve devoting
time and effort to doing something more productive than infighting with
other furry fans.

Creating More Choices
Nothing could be easier to do than devote your time to supporting furry
stuff you like. If you don't like spooge art, nothing is stopping you
from creating art that you like -- or, if you're not an artist --
supporting the art that you like. If you don't like the Pet Auction,
nobody is forcing you to go -- and there are plenty of other things to
do than complain about it, like devoting time to creating your own
event.

Create Furry FAQs or Furry Related Homepages
Write up a Furry FAQ, or a Furry Music List, or some other informative
document, and distribute it. Make a furry related homepage with links
to other furry homepages, or even better, linked to FurRing. Answer the
question "What Is A Furry?" in 200 words or less. Instead of
complaining about the misinformative "Dr. Pepper" file (which is six or
seven years old, wasn't even written by a furry fan, and is taken with a
barrel of salt by Those Who Know Better), write up a "Furry Fandom
Observed" file with your own thoughts on furry fandom and distribute it.
Who knows, maybe someone will like your [updated, more accurate] version
better and ask to put it on their site too.

Working Together
It's really not that difficult to understand, is it? The only way
improvements are going to be made to furry fandom is when people learn
to respect each others differences instead of attacking them. Trying to
improve furry fandom by having the "G-rated" and "Spooge" groups fight
against each other is not conducive to the "G-rated" and "Spooge" groups
working with each other. This "Us vs. Them" attitude is a downward
spiral because it does not encourage collaborative efforts among furry
fans. This results in not exchanging different ideas, which results in
stagnation, which results in a weaker fandom. As the saying goes,
"United We Stand, Divided We Fall."

Positive Articles About Furry Fandom
If other people can publish articles about furry fandom, why can't you?
Distributing positive, accurate information as far and wide as possible
is the most important step in promoting a positive image of furry
fandom. Write a con report that focuses on what you LIKED about the
con. Write an article about FurryMUCK (especially since there's plenty
of places to hang out besides the T|D pool). Pick something in furry
fandom that interests you, or that you consider yourself somewhat of an
expert on, or just something you like, and write a 200 word essay on it,
and publish it. Put it in a zine. Put it on a webpage or two. Don’t
be fooled into thinking what you have to say doesn't matter. It does,
because every positive article out there means one more chance for
someone to find out what furry fandom is really like. Especially on the
Internet, where more and more people are going to find information these
days. (And frankly, I'd rather see authors reference things like Furry
Fandom Welcome Wagon in their articles instead of tripe like "Johnny
Manhattan Meets The Furry Muckers").

Furry Parties
Why wait for a convention to see your furry friends? Organize furry
gatherings with local furries in your area. Why? Aside from being lots
of fun, it's also a great networking opportunity. Share stories and
ideas, get to know other furry fans outside the hectic convention
environment, and strengthen the local furry community.

Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
I concede this is idealistic on my part, but I've had little to no
trouble putting it into practice. Before you spend your money on
anything -- conventions, the local comic book store, or whatever else
directly affects your Ghoddamn lifestyle/hobby, ask yourself: "What is
their position on furry fandom?" If improving furry fandom is so
important to you and you're spending money someplace that doesn't like
furries, you need to reconsider your priorities. In other words, why
give your hard-earned furry dollars to people who don't like furries?
MONEY = POWER. Use it wisely.

Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is Part II
Volunteer to help out at a furry convention. Or, if you prefer to have
free time while at the con, register as a Sponsor or Super Sponsor. Or
sponsor your favorite artist and help them defray travel costs.

Complain
But direct it at someone who deserves it. If someone writes a negative
article about FurryMUCK, complain to the author, not the people on
FurryMUCK. If some clueless yutz calls you a skunkfucker because they
think furry fandom is about bestiality, take it up with them, not me.
I'm not the one calling you names. Focus on the real problem. If
someone has a problem with a rude fan who collects spooge art, their
target should be the rudeness. Not the spooge art.

Practice Drawing Furry Art or Writing Furry Stories
Or if you can't draw, write. Or learn how. Get some friends together
and have a drawing/writing workshop. Review each others work and offer
advice for improvement. Most importantly, be creative and have fun. An
increase in the amount of furry art or stories is always a good thing.

Try Being Quiet
Get away from the flamewars, head for the bleachers, and drink a nice
cup of Celestial Seasonings Vanilla Maple Tea. Spend some time getting
to know other furries, because most of them are pretty cool. Be
excellent to each other.

--Excerpt from "Divided We Fall: How Infighting Will Destroy Furry
Fandom", by Karl Xydexx Jorgensen


____anthro=furry___===> ANTHROFURRY <===___furry=anthro____
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen, Project Director (xyd...@smart.net)
The Furry Fandom Welcome Wagon: Do Not Taunt Bouncy Fun Xydexx.
Visit our homepage at http://www.smart.net/~xydexx/welcome.htm

[1] Of course, I don't claim to have all the answers, nor do I make
any claim that any of this is some magical formula to get rid of
all furry fandom's problems. I do think they are steps in the
right direction, however. The fact that I've already gone and
done many (all?) of the things on this list shows that I actually do
something other than wander around with rose-colored glasses on.

Joseph Nebus

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Mar 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/31/97
to

Michael McGee <mcg...@REMOVETOREPLY.cadvision.com> writes:

>There are a million and one ways to help furry fandom grow.
> What's yours?


Uhm...I hate to be a nitpicker but I just counted and I could only
figure out 999,984 of them. Anyone know which ones I'm missing?


Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

cmelv...@aol.com

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Mar 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/31/97
to

In article <5hngl3$c29$2...@news.smart.net>, xyd...@smart.net wrote:

>The solutions I support are creative, not destructive. They emphasize
>working to build furry fandom up instead of tearing it down. Working
>with each other instead of fighting each other. They involve devoting
>time and effort to doing something more productive than infighting with
>other furry fans.
>
>Creating More Choices
>Nothing could be easier to do than devote your time to supporting furry
>stuff you like. If you don't like spooge art, nothing is stopping you
>from creating art that you like -- or, if you're not an artist --
>supporting the art that you like. If you don't like the Pet Auction,
>nobody is forcing you to go -- and there are plenty of other things to
>do than complain about it, like devoting time to creating your own
>event.

I would think a more appropriate action would be Creating More Choices That Put Furry Fandom In A Positive Light. A Pet Auction does not enhance the fandom's image. In fact, most of this
category is bogus... you're only defending what already exists, and not really encouraging or creating -new- choices. Most of this is a duplicate of the last item on your list.

>Create Furry FAQs or Furry Related Homepages
>Write up a Furry FAQ, or a Furry Music List, or some other informative
>document, and distribute it. Make a furry related homepage with links
>to other furry homepages, or even better, linked to FurRing. Answer the
>question "What Is A Furry?" in 200 words or less. Instead of
>complaining about the misinformative "Dr. Pepper" file (which is six or
>seven years old, wasn't even written by a furry fan, and is taken with a
>barrel of salt by Those Who Know Better), write up a "Furry Fandom
>Observed" file with your own thoughts on furry fandom and distribute it.
>Who knows, maybe someone will like your [updated, more accurate] version
>better and ask to put it on their site too.

Better, but relating only to Net furries. Observation on the "Dr, Pepper" comment: yes, old-time furries -do- know better -- what's really important is that newcomers -don't- know better. So
the comment is as useless as it is deliberately insulting. Also, it should be noted that if several people write up FAQs on what furry or anthro fandom is, then you're going to wind up with several
different interpretations.



>Working Together
>It's really not that difficult to understand, is it? The only way
>improvements are going to be made to furry fandom is when people learn
>to respect each others differences instead of attacking them. Trying to
>improve furry fandom by having the "G-rated" and "Spooge" groups fight
>against each other is not conducive to the "G-rated" and "Spooge" groups
>working with each other. This "Us vs. Them" attitude is a downward
>spiral because it does not encourage collaborative efforts among furry
>fans. This results in not exchanging different ideas, which results in
>stagnation, which results in a weaker fandom. As the saying goes,
>"United We Stand, Divided We Fall."

But the opposite end of the spectrum is that of everybody coming together in a homogenous conformity, where everyone is in total agreement, regardless of whether they are right or not.
Incorporating every little drift or peripherally related subject into a whole does -not- make it a stronger whole; rather it leaves it unfocused and diluted. Exchanging ideas does not mean embracing
tangents. And working together does not exclude discussion or dissent; informed analysis and decision have an importance as well.

>Positive Articles About Furry Fandom
>If other people can publish articles about furry fandom, why can't you?
>Distributing positive, accurate information as far and wide as possible
>is the most important step in promoting a positive image of furry
>fandom. Write a con report that focuses on what you LIKED about the
>con. Write an article about FurryMUCK (especially since there's plenty
>of places to hang out besides the T|D pool). Pick something in furry
>fandom that interests you, or that you consider yourself somewhat of an
>expert on, or just something you like, and write a 200 word essay on it,
>and publish it. Put it in a zine. Put it on a webpage or two. Don’t
>be fooled into thinking what you have to say doesn't matter. It does,
>because every positive article out there means one more chance for
>someone to find out what furry fandom is really like. Especially on the
>Internet, where more and more people are going to find information these
>days. (And frankly, I'd rather see authors reference things like Furry
>Fandom Welcome Wagon in their articles instead of tripe like "Johnny
>Manhattan Meets The Furry Muckers").

In general, I can agree with this one... although I'd much rather see an article that was an -honest- and fully balanced account, rather than a "gee, I had a swell time" glossing over of the
difficulties. Understandably, for PR reasons we wouldn't want to focus unduly on the negative aspects, but neither should we ignore them.



>Furry Parties
>Why wait for a convention to see your furry friends? Organize furry
>gatherings with local furries in your area. Why? Aside from being lots
>of fun, it's also a great networking opportunity. Share stories and
>ideas, get to know other furry fans outside the hectic convention
>environment, and strengthen the local furry community.

Mmm... no comment.

>Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
>I concede this is idealistic on my part, but I've had little to no
>trouble putting it into practice. Before you spend your money on
>anything -- conventions, the local comic book store, or whatever else
>directly affects your Ghoddamn lifestyle/hobby, ask yourself: "What is
>their position on furry fandom?" If improving furry fandom is so
>important to you and you're spending money someplace that doesn't like
>furries, you need to reconsider your priorities. In other words, why
>give your hard-earned furry dollars to people who don't like furries?
>MONEY = POWER. Use it wisely.

If that doesn't sound like the opening salvo on a motion to boycott MU, I don't know what does.
Without actually conversing with a creator or publisher, how the hell would you know what his or her position on anything is? Even here on AFF, there are a number of creators who post who
-don't- really offer their position. Do you then guess?
Either you're just trying to be slick and encourage a boycott, or what you're trying to say is to support the merchandise you like. The latter -might- be what you mean, but the way it's
phrased, the former is how it sounds.

>Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is Part II
>Volunteer to help out at a furry convention. Or, if you prefer to have
>free time while at the con, register as a Sponsor or Super Sponsor. Or
>sponsor your favorite artist and help them defray travel costs.

Provided you have either time or money.

>Complain
>But direct it at someone who deserves it. If someone writes a negative
>article about FurryMUCK, complain to the author, not the people on
>FurryMUCK. If some clueless yutz calls you a skunkfucker because they
>think furry fandom is about bestiality, take it up with them, not me.
>I'm not the one calling you names. Focus on the real problem. If
>someone has a problem with a rude fan who collects spooge art, their
>target should be the rudeness. Not the spooge art.

This has been a central point of disagreement for a long time.

If some yutz calls me a skunkfucker because they think it's about bestiality, and the reason they think so is because he saw you boinking a horse (just an example; not saying that you do or
did), I'm going to complain to -both- of you. Him, for being mistaken (and I might be able to correct his impression), and you for creating the impression. As far as I'm concerned, -you- are the
real problem in this instance.
Same with the spooge art example. I agree that a rude fan is largely responsible for his actions; but the implied license and atmosphere of a given place (such as a dealer's den with a high
degree of visibility of erotic work) is also a cause, and must be taken into consideration.

>Practice Drawing Furry Art or Writing Furry Stories
>Or if you can't draw, write. Or learn how. Get some friends together
>and have a drawing/writing workshop. Review each others work and offer
>advice for improvement. Most importantly, be creative and have fun. An
>increase in the amount of furry art or stories is always a good thing.

This one pretty much goes without saying, although it's probably one of the more important ones on the list.

>Try Being Quiet
>Get away from the flamewars, head for the bleachers,

I'll believe this one when I see you practice it.

-Chuck Melville-
http://members.aol.com/cmelvi6195/page1.html


cmelv...@aol.com

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Mar 31, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/31/97
to

In article <333F0E...@REMOVETOREPLY.cadvision.com>, Michael wrote:

> Mine is, to create, write, and get someone to draw a furry comic. A
>nice, high quality, furry comic, that'll sell over 10,000 issues. A
>furry comic that'll have great story, great art, and that will come out
>every month. A furry book that'll mix characterization, action,
>adventure, romance, psychodrama, and social commentary. A furry book
>that'll be read by mainstream readers and furry fans alike. A furry
>comic to burn and destroy the myths that swirl and swarm around us, to
>show us as a group of people who like furries - and that's it. But most
>of all, a furry comic that will get me a letter saying "You know
>something, Mike? I really like this book." And maybe, just maybe, a
>furry comic to pave the way for other furry comics.
> Will I ever get there? Maybe, maybe not. But that's the way I'll try
>and help this fandom grow. That's my way.

I'm all for that. But, not to throw a wet blanket on your aspirations, we've all been trying that for the past decade... here at MU, over at Antarctic, now at Radio and Vision... And we're
lucky if we can get sales up above 2,000 copies.
The closest any have come to that kind of success has been USAGI YOJIMBO and OMAHA, with ALBEDO right behind. Omaha is pretty much gone, and I don't believe either ALBEDO or USAGI has the sales
they once had... though USAGI probably isn't hurting too badly.
The trick is that -first- you're going to have to hook the non-furry audience; without them, you can't carry the book past the 3,000 copy barrier. If you can get the interest and the sales,
then you can afford to come out more frequently.


-Chuck Melville-
http://members.aol.com/cmelvi6195/page1.html


cmelv...@aol.com

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Apr 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/1/97
to

cmelv...@aol.com

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Apr 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/1/97
to

In article <5hngl3$c29$2...@news.smart.net>, xyd...@smart.net wrote:

>The solutions I support are creative, not destructive. They emphasize
>working to build furry fandom up instead of tearing it down. Working
>with each other instead of fighting each other. They involve devoting
>time and effort to doing something more productive than infighting with
>other furry fans.
>
>Creating More Choices
>Nothing could be easier to do than devote your time to supporting furry
>stuff you like. If you don't like spooge art, nothing is stopping you
>from creating art that you like -- or, if you're not an artist --
>supporting the art that you like. If you don't like the Pet Auction,
>nobody is forcing you to go -- and there are plenty of other things to
>do than complain about it, like devoting time to creating your own
>event.

I would think a more appropriate action would be Creating More Choices That Put Furry Fandom In A Positive Light. A Pet Auction does not enhance the fandom's image. In fact, most of this


category is bogus... you're only defending what already exists, and not really encouraging or creating -new- choices. Most of this is a duplicate of the last item on your list.

>Create Furry FAQs or Furry Related Homepages

>Write up a Furry FAQ, or a Furry Music List, or some other informative
>document, and distribute it. Make a furry related homepage with links
>to other furry homepages, or even better, linked to FurRing. Answer the
>question "What Is A Furry?" in 200 words or less. Instead of
>complaining about the misinformative "Dr. Pepper" file (which is six or
>seven years old, wasn't even written by a furry fan, and is taken with a
>barrel of salt by Those Who Know Better), write up a "Furry Fandom
>Observed" file with your own thoughts on furry fandom and distribute it.
>Who knows, maybe someone will like your [updated, more accurate] version
>better and ask to put it on their site too.

Better, but relating only to Net furries. Observation on the "Dr, Pepper" comment: yes, old-time furries -do- know better -- what's really important is that newcomers -don't- know better. So


the comment is as useless as it is deliberately insulting. Also, it should be noted that if several people write up FAQs on what furry or anthro fandom is, then you're going to wind up with several
different interpretations.

>Working Together
>It's really not that difficult to understand, is it? The only way
>improvements are going to be made to furry fandom is when people learn
>to respect each others differences instead of attacking them. Trying to
>improve furry fandom by having the "G-rated" and "Spooge" groups fight
>against each other is not conducive to the "G-rated" and "Spooge" groups
>working with each other. This "Us vs. Them" attitude is a downward
>spiral because it does not encourage collaborative efforts among furry
>fans. This results in not exchanging different ideas, which results in
>stagnation, which results in a weaker fandom. As the saying goes,
>"United We Stand, Divided We Fall."

But the opposite end of the spectrum is that of everybody coming together in a homogenous conformity, where everyone is in total agreement, regardless of whether they are right or not.

Incorporating every little drift or peripherally related subject into a whole does -not- make it a stronger whole; rather it leaves it unfocused and diluted. Exchanging ideas does not mean embracing
tangents. And working together does not exclude discussion or dissent; informed analysis and decision have an importance as well.

>Positive Articles About Furry Fandom

>If other people can publish articles about furry fandom, why can't you?
>Distributing positive, accurate information as far and wide as possible
>is the most important step in promoting a positive image of furry
>fandom. Write a con report that focuses on what you LIKED about the
>con. Write an article about FurryMUCK (especially since there's plenty
>of places to hang out besides the T|D pool). Pick something in furry
>fandom that interests you, or that you consider yourself somewhat of an
>expert on, or just something you like, and write a 200 word essay on it,
>and publish it. Put it in a zine. Put it on a webpage or two. Don’t
>be fooled into thinking what you have to say doesn't matter. It does,
>because every positive article out there means one more chance for
>someone to find out what furry fandom is really like. Especially on the
>Internet, where more and more people are going to find information these
>days. (And frankly, I'd rather see authors reference things like Furry
>Fandom Welcome Wagon in their articles instead of tripe like "Johnny
>Manhattan Meets The Furry Muckers").

In general, I can agree with this one... although I'd much rather see an article that was an -honest- and fully balanced account, rather than a "gee, I had a swell time" glossing over of the


difficulties. Understandably, for PR reasons we wouldn't want to focus unduly on the negative aspects, but neither should we ignore them.

>Furry Parties
>Why wait for a convention to see your furry friends? Organize furry
>gatherings with local furries in your area. Why? Aside from being lots
>of fun, it's also a great networking opportunity. Share stories and
>ideas, get to know other furry fans outside the hectic convention
>environment, and strengthen the local furry community.

Mmm... no comment.

>Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
>I concede this is idealistic on my part, but I've had little to no
>trouble putting it into practice. Before you spend your money on
>anything -- conventions, the local comic book store, or whatever else
>directly affects your Ghoddamn lifestyle/hobby, ask yourself: "What is
>their position on furry fandom?" If improving furry fandom is so
>important to you and you're spending money someplace that doesn't like
>furries, you need to reconsider your priorities. In other words, why
>give your hard-earned furry dollars to people who don't like furries?
>MONEY = POWER. Use it wisely.

If that doesn't sound like the opening salvo on a motion to boycott MU, I don't know what does.


Without actually conversing with a creator or publisher, how the hell would you know what his or her position on anything is? Even here on AFF, there are a number of creators who post who
-don't- really offer their position. Do you then guess?
Either you're just trying to be slick and encourage a boycott, or what you're trying to say is to support the merchandise you like. The latter -might- be what you mean, but the way it's
phrased, the former is how it sounds.

>Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is Part II

>Volunteer to help out at a furry convention. Or, if you prefer to have
>free time while at the con, register as a Sponsor or Super Sponsor. Or
>sponsor your favorite artist and help them defray travel costs.

Provided you have either time or money.

>Complain

>But direct it at someone who deserves it. If someone writes a negative
>article about FurryMUCK, complain to the author, not the people on
>FurryMUCK. If some clueless yutz calls you a skunkfucker because they
>think furry fandom is about bestiality, take it up with them, not me.
>I'm not the one calling you names. Focus on the real problem. If
>someone has a problem with a rude fan who collects spooge art, their
>target should be the rudeness. Not the spooge art.

This has been a central point of disagreement for a long time.

If some yutz calls me a skunkfucker because they think it's about bestiality, and the reason they think so is because he saw you boinking a horse (just an example; not saying that you do or
did), I'm going to complain to -both- of you. Him, for being mistaken (and I might be able to correct his impression), and you for creating the impression. As far as I'm concerned, -you- are the
real problem in this instance.
Same with the spooge art example. I agree that a rude fan is largely responsible for his actions; but the implied license and atmosphere of a given place (such as a dealer's den with a high
degree of visibility of erotic work) is also a cause, and must be taken into consideration.

>Practice Drawing Furry Art or Writing Furry Stories

>Or if you can't draw, write. Or learn how. Get some friends together
>and have a drawing/writing workshop. Review each others work and offer
>advice for improvement. Most importantly, be creative and have fun. An
>increase in the amount of furry art or stories is always a good thing.

This one pretty much goes without saying, although it's probably one of the more important ones on the list.

>Try Being Quiet

>Get away from the flamewars, head for the bleachers,

I'll believe this one when I see you practice it.

-Chuck Melville-
http://members.aol.com/cmelvi6195/page1.html


cmelv...@aol.com

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Apr 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/1/97
to

Lisa Jennings

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Apr 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/1/97
to

In article <19970401021...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,

cmelv...@aol.com wrote:
> The closest any have come to that kind of success has been USAGI
> YOJIMBO and OMAHA, with ALBEDO right behind. Omaha is pretty much gone,
> and I don't believe either ALBEDO or USAGI has the sales they once had...
> though USAGI probably isn't hurting too badly.

Sticking my muzzle in here, but Omaha isn't _gone_, it's in hiatus.
Again. If you never paid attention to this comic, Reed and Kate have
never gotten far on the comic before some disaster happened to them; the
car accident, the cancer, the breakup and so forth. When they had the car
accident, Omaha was put on hold for 2 _years_... I won't count it out yet
until my friend Reed up and calls me to _tell_ me it's all over, thank
you.

Besides, I hate the idea of packing away my costume for good... :3

**********************************************************************
ermine
(aka Lisa Jennings, the official "Omaha" The Cat...)
home email: <khr...@inorbit.com>
**********************************************************************
("Omaha" the Cat is not to be confused with either "Omaha" the Cat Dancer
nor "Omaha" the Dancer. One is a comic, the other lives in Washington.)

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

Dr. Cat

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Apr 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/1/97
to

Hmmm, is it a thread about suggesting ways to improve fandom, or about
nitpicking other people's suggested ways and showing what's wrong with 'em?
I'll go with the opening post and assume it's a post about nice pleasant
usggestions. :X)

Michael McGee (mcg...@REMOVETOREPLY.cadvision.com) wrote:
: There are a million and one ways to help furry fandom grow.
: What's yours?

That's easy to answer, it's Furcadia. At http://www.bga.com/furcadia
like it's said in my .sig for so long. :X) It's not aimed at the fandom
so much as it's aimed at everybody, we try to get a lot of people in
there that haven't been involved in or even heard of furry fandom
before. (You gotta if you wanna be a really big hit, 'cause it's a small
fandom.) I hope to present a positive view or the idea of pretending to
be talking animal characters in a friendly environment. I think it's
succeeded reasonably well at that so far. A lot of the players have put
up nice web pages too, check out http://www.tcnj.edu/~buczyns2/ for an
index with links to most of them. Carrie O'Kaye has done some lovely
furry art, and I suppose that's all my fault - I don't think she drew any
before she started playing on Furcadia. :X)

If anybody wants to help me to help spread the Furcadian positive image
of talking animal critters, they could go to the Top 40 list and vote for
us at http://www.gatech.edu/dgal/pcgames and vote fur us. We've actually
slipped a couple of notches down this last week. *pout* Though we're
still ranked just above the shareware versions of Quake and Duke Nukem
3D, which ain't bad! Still, it's been my dream for soooo many years to
make number one on some kind of computer games chart somewhere... And it
would only take a few dozen more voters to get us there. If you like
bananas, or even if you don't, couldncha drop by the charts and put in a
vote to get a furry game up in that number one spot for just a week or
two? You'd make at least one stripey-kitty very happy, I promise you!

*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
Dr. Cat / Dragon's Eye Productions || Free alpha test:
*-------------------------------------------** http://www.bga.com/furcadia
Furcadia - a new graphic mud for PCs! || Let your imagination soar!
*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*

(Disclaimer: On the planet Zevlon, the bananas are bigger the Vreeblings!)

cmelv...@aol.com

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cmelv...@aol.com

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Matthew High

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Apr 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/1/97
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In article <19970401021...@ladder01.news.aol.com> ,

cmelv...@aol.com writes:
> I'm all for that. But, not to throw a wet blanket on your aspirations, >we've all been trying that for the past decade... here at MU, over at >Antarctic, now at Radio and Vision... And we're
>lucky if we can get sales up above 2,000 copies.
> The closest any have come to that kind of success has been USAGI YOJIMBO >and OMAHA, with ALBEDO right behind. Omaha is pretty much gone, and I don't >believe either ALBEDO or USAGI has the sales
>they once had... though USAGI probably isn't hurting too badly.
> The trick is that -first- you're going to have to hook the non-furry >audience; without them, you can't carry the book past the 3,000 copy barrier. >If you can get the interest and the sales,
>then you can afford to come out more frequently.

Not to get too nit-picky here, but I keep very close track of sales
figures (check out http://www.texas.net/~antarc/salescharts.html).
Usagi Yojimbo sells in the 8000-9000 range, and Omaha is pretty much
dead - the last issue (which was ages ago) had very weak sales. Genus
consistently sells in the 3000 range, and Furrlough has maintained
consistent sales for over three years in the low-to-mid 2000 range.

Then again, I guess it really depends on what you call a "furry"
comic. Sonic the Hedgehog sells 7-8000 copies on the direct market,
with tens of thousands more through newsstands. Animal Mystic (from
Sirius) is in the 10,000+ range. Reality Check sells 4-5000 copies
per issue. Not to open the old "is it furry?" debate, but I could
point out several more examples of borderline furry comics (i.e. Gold
Digger, Hepcats, Bone).

The KEY (in my opinion, of course) is to aim for the non-furry crowd.
The key selling point of a comic book should not whether the
characters have pointy ears and a tail - the selling point should be
"Is the story good? Is the art well-drawn?". If a comic book is good
then people will buy it REGARDLESS of whether the characters are funny
animals or not. This is why books like Usagi Yojimbo, Hepcats, and
Gold Digger are so successful - they are not written or drawn for the
furry fan. Instead, they are written for EVERYONE.

IMHO, this is why every project that has been created specifically
geared towards the furry market has failed when presented to a broader
market - they are just too damn inclusive.

Best,
- mlh (speaking for myself only)

M. Mitchell Marmel

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cmelv...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
>

I agree completely. :)

-MMM-

cmelv...@aol.com

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In article <8599168...@dejanews.com>, Lisa wrote:

>Sticking my muzzle in here, but Omaha isn't _gone_, it's in hiatus.
>Again. If you never paid attention to this comic, Reed and Kate have
>never gotten far on the comic before some disaster happened to them; the
>car accident, the cancer, the breakup and so forth. When they had the car
>accident, Omaha was put on hold for 2 _years_... I won't count it out yet
>until my friend Reed up and calls me to _tell_ me it's all over, thank
>you.

I'm pretty much aware of Reed and Kate's trials and tribulations, which is why I wasn't be too definitive; I said -pretty much- gone. And I say that because there haven't been any issues at all
in, what, three years now? The last issue offered was, I believe, cancelled because it wasn't done. There hasn't been anything at all, it seems, since they split up and Kate got remarried. The
only things I've seen from Reed were a one-shot EROS book (which wasn't very interesting, I'm afraid), and some contributions to the ANIMAL MAGNETISM CD.
I don't know what the personal situation between Reed and Kate is right now, if they're even speaking to one another or not, and I have no idea of what's being done with Omaha, if anything at
all; maybe he's working on the next issue right now.
But it's been a -long- gap this time, and the market has undergone -huge- changes in the book's absence. And there's been no word of the book -or- Reed through the industry channels for some
time now. If it wasn't for their personal split, I'd feel sure the book would reemerge eventually; but right now, things as they are, I just don't know.


-Chuck Melville-
http://members.aol.com/cmelvi6195/page1.html


Karl Jorgensen

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Apr 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/2/97
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In alt.fan.furry Dr. Cat, Banana Surgeon Extraordinairre wrote:
: That's easy to answer, it's Furcadia. At http://www.bga.com/furcadia
: like it's said in my .sig for so long. :X) It's not aimed at the fandom
: so much as it's aimed at everybody, we try to get a lot of people in
: there that haven't been involved in or even heard of furry fandom
: before. (You gotta if you wanna be a really big hit, 'cause it's a small
: fandom.) I hope to present a positive view or the idea of pretending to
: be talking animal characters in a friendly environment.

If you've ever wanted to be a Furry[1], or just look like one, this is the
game for you. Very cool. I like kicking the ball around... (boing boing
boing boing boing...) and playing with the jigsaw puzzles. Is fun.

I haven't seen any unclaimed bananas lying around, though...

____anthro=furry___===> ANTHROFURRY <===___furry=anthro____
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen, Project Director (xyd...@smart.net)

The Furry Fandom Welcome Wagon: It's About Cute Talking Animals.

[1] Or Furre, as the case may be.

Jim Doolittle

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In article <5hrt0e$at4$4...@news3.realtime.net>, c...@bga.com (Dr. Cat) wrote:

> Michael McGee (mcg...@REMOVETOREPLY.cadvision.com) wrote:
> : There are a million and one ways to help furry fandom grow.
> : What's yours?
>

> That's easy to answer, it's Furcadia. At http://www.bga.com/furcadia

[it slices! it dices!]

I have two words for you. Macintosh. Version. :)

-Jim, Mac user in a hostile world.

--
Jim Doolittle Understanding is a three-edged sword--
dool...@uiuc.edu your side, their side, and the truth!
gi...@avara.com -Sheridan, Into the Fire
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/doolittl http://avara.com/~gimli
PGP public key available at either website, or on request.

cmelv...@aol.com

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In article <5hrkpd$arv$1...@news3.texas.net>, Matthew wrote:

>The KEY (in my opinion, of course) is to aim for the non-furry crowd.
>The key selling point of a comic book should not whether the
>characters have pointy ears and a tail - the selling point should be
>"Is the story good? Is the art well-drawn?". If a comic book is good
>then people will buy it REGARDLESS of whether the characters are funny
>animals or not. This is why books like Usagi Yojimbo, Hepcats, and
>Gold Digger are so successful - they are not written or drawn for the
>furry fan. Instead, they are written for EVERYONE.
>
>IMHO, this is why every project that has been created specifically
>geared towards the furry market has failed when presented to a broader
>market - they are just too damn inclusive.
>
>Best,
> - mlh (speaking for myself only)

Well, there you go. And I can't disagree with a word of that.


-Chuck Melville-
http://members.aol.com/cmelvi6195/page1.html


Richard J. Bartrop

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On 31 Mar 1997, Karl Jorgensen wrote:

>
> Well, the things I support are far too controversial to post here because
> they don't involve anything really stupid like Mass Graves and going on
> jihads against all those awful furverts, so naturally anyone who agrees
> with me is going to be accused of wearing rose-colored eyewear and
> sticking bananas in their ears.[1]
>
> But what the hell, I'll post it anyway. -:)

I did take the time out to read this on your web page the last time you
mentioned it. I had been meaning to write some comments about it, and this
seems just as good an opportunity as any.

>
> I call it....
>
> - XYDEXX'S 10 WAYS TO IMPROVE FURRY FANDOM -
>
> The solutions I support are creative, not destructive. They emphasize
> working to build furry fandom up instead of tearing it down. Working
> with each other instead of fighting each other. They involve devoting
> time and effort to doing something more productive than infighting with
> other furry fans.

Hard to argue with that. I think people are spending WAY too much
time looking for Enemies of the Fandom. Though from the ease with which
the same old arguments get drawn out, cunical ol' me is startin to think
that people like the infighting


>
> Creating More Choices
> Nothing could be easier to do than devote your time to supporting furry
> stuff you like. If you don't like spooge art, nothing is stopping you
> from creating art that you like -- or, if you're not an artist --
> supporting the art that you like. If you don't like the Pet Auction,
> nobody is forcing you to go -- and there are plenty of other things to
> do than complain about it, like devoting time to creating your own
> event.

I agree completely. We need more choices, and by providing an altenative
(Note the word here: alternative, NOT replacement), anthrofandom is a way
to supply greater diversity, just as the rnge of alternative SF
fandoms such asTrek fandom, anime fandom, and even furry fandom have
provided a range of fandoms a range of choices.

>
> Create Furry FAQs or Furry Related Homepages
> Write up a Furry FAQ, or a Furry Music List, or some other informative
> document, and distribute it. Make a furry related homepage with links
> to other furry homepages, or even better, linked to FurRing. Answer the
> question "What Is A Furry?" in 200 words or less. Instead of
> complaining about the misinformative "Dr. Pepper" file (which is six or
> seven years old, wasn't even written by a furry fan, and is taken with a
> barrel of salt by Those Who Know Better), write up a "Furry Fandom
> Observed" file with your own thoughts on furry fandom and distribute it.
> Who knows, maybe someone will like your [updated, more accurate] version
> better and ask to put it on their site too.

No arguement here


>
> Working Together
> It's really not that difficult to understand, is it? The only way
> improvements are going to be made to furry fandom is when people learn
> to respect each others differences instead of attacking them. Trying to
> improve furry fandom by having the "G-rated" and "Spooge" groups fight
> against each other is not conducive to the "G-rated" and "Spooge" groups
> working with each other. This "Us vs. Them" attitude is a downward
> spiral because it does not encourage collaborative efforts among furry
> fans. This results in not exchanging different ideas, which results in
> stagnation, which results in a weaker fandom. As the saying goes,
> "United We Stand, Divided We Fall."

I agree that infighting is pointless and destructive. The problem has
been that furry fandom has embraced a wide fange of interests, and some of
those interests are in conflict. Activities that some people enjoy make
others uncomfortable, and some cases run into conflict with thier personal
beliefs. Some people are concerned about how the behaviour of others
reflects on them, and some don't feel that they should have someone else's
standard imposed on them, and everyone feels they have very good reasons
for feeling the way they do. Moosh them aall together, and the result is
tension, conflict, and a lot of hostility over who's fandom it is. Every
now and again this tension seems to erupt into a flamewar. It should be
obvious that some people just can't play nice together. Think "Infinite
Diversity in Infinite Combinations". The fact that alternative
'anthrofurry' fandoms (there, I said it) do have common interests ensures
some degree of cohesion.

>
> Positive Articles About Furry Fandom

(large snip covering where you can publish them)
Excellent idea. IT's better to light one small candle, than to range
against the darkness.

>
> Furry Parties
[examples of same removed]

Go for it. Anyone interested in starting up a few anthro parties?

>
> Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
> I concede this is idealistic on my part, but I've had little to no
> trouble putting it into practice. Before you spend your money on
> anything -- conventions, the local comic book store, or whatever else
> directly affects your Ghoddamn lifestyle/hobby, ask yourself: "What is
> their position on furry fandom?" If improving furry fandom is so
> important to you and you're spending money someplace that doesn't like
> furries, you need to reconsider your priorities. In other words, why
> give your hard-earned furry dollars to people who don't like furries?
> MONEY = POWER. Use it wisely.

The Reverend Jerry Falwell, the Moral Majority, and numerous other
groups have shown the effectiveness of using boycotts to impose their
standards on others. I'm not sure that is such a good thing.
It sounds a little like you want to punish those people who don't agree
with you, which would certainly conflict with encouraging diversity. At
worst, it will drive people away from the fandom, and at best, it just
means that people will be afraid to speak out. They will still feel the
same way, as you can't threaten people into liking you, and the tension
level in furry fandom builds even higher. Does this mean you7re going to
boycott ZAIBATSU TEARS because I've sided with anthro fandom? If you are,
that's too bad, you'll be missing out on a good story, if I say so myself,
but I'm not going renounce something I enjoy because of it. Do you really
want to be the furry Falwell?


>
> Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is Part II
> Volunteer to help out at a furry convention. Or, if you prefer to have
> free time while at the con, register as a Sponsor or Super Sponsor. Or
> sponsor your favorite artist and help them defray travel costs.
>

Another excelent suggestion. I've voluteered my art and my time to Albany
Anthrocon


> Complain
> But direct it at someone who deserves it. If someone writes a negative
> article about FurryMUCK, complain to the author, not the people on
> FurryMUCK. If some clueless yutz calls you a skunkfucker because they
> think furry fandom is about bestiality, take it up with them, not me.
> I'm not the one calling you names. Focus on the real problem. If
> someone has a problem with a rude fan who collects spooge art, their
> target should be the rudeness. Not the spooge art.
>

In other words, the problem is people who disagree with you. I agree a
certain amount of tact is in order, but again the problem is that there
are a wide range of beliefs among anthrofurry fans. One might think
those beliefs are silly or wrong, but they are important to them, just as
your beliefs are important to you. When you tell someone their feelings
are unimportant, again, they either leave the fandom, decreasing its
diversity, or they just bottle up their feelings, and the tension level
in teh fandom raises a little more. Nobody likes to be converted,
whatever their beleif system is. Better to give them an alternative.


> Practice Drawing Furry Art or Writing Furry Stories

>[another snip]
Another excellent suggestion.


> Try Being Quiet
> Get away from the flamewars, head for the bleachers, and drink a nice
> cup of Celestial Seasonings Vanilla Maple Tea. Spend some time getting
> to know other furries, because most of them are pretty cool. Be
> excellent to each other.

Good idea. It takes two to make an arguement. Me, I have a comic to do

Richard Bartrop
writer/artist, "Zaibatsu Tears"
Issue #1 coming out in July from Limelight Publishing
Grey on FurryMUCK

Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

Michael McGee

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Apr 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/2/97
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Dr. Cat wrote:
>
> Hmmm, is it a thread about suggesting ways to improve fandom, or about
> nitpicking other people's suggested ways and showing what's wrong with 'em?
> I'll go with the opening post and assume it's a post about nice pleasant
> usggestions. :X)

Pleasant suggestions. I believe in a pleasant form of non-conformity.


>
> Michael McGee (mcg...@REMOVETOREPLY.cadvision.com) wrote:
> : There are a million and one ways to help furry fandom grow.
> : What's yours?
>
> That's easy to answer, it's Furcadia. At http://www.bga.com/furcadia

> like it's said in my .sig for so long. :X)

I play this game a lot, Doc - at least a half-hour tonight. It's a
lpha test version, but I can already tell it's gonna be something to
remember. Because it's got "spark." It's not just another dime-a-dozen
ripoff; it's got its own personality. You really threw your heart and
soul into it, and it shows.

-Mike
No, I'm not telling you my char's name!

Message has been deleted

Karl Jorgensen

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Apr 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/2/97
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In alt.fan.furry Dr. Cat <c...@bga.com> wrote:
: Hmmm, is it a thread about suggesting ways to improve fandom, or about
: nitpicking other people's suggested ways and showing what's wrong with 'em?
: I'll go with the opening post and assume it's a post about nice pleasant
: suggestions. :X)

Well, ya gotta remember, some people are only in this fandom so they can
complain about it. I've got a list of things that _won't_ improve the
fandom, but it would be silly for me to post them since I'm interested in
improving things, not making them worse.

solarfox[at]eden[dot]com

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Apr 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/3/97
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"M. Mitchell Marmel" <marm...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> wrote:

>cmelv...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>I agree completely. :)

Oh, good, I was starting to _wonder_ if I was the only one seeing totally
empty messages from Chuck recently...

(...then again...)

solarfox[at]eden[dot]com

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Apr 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/3/97
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cmelv...@aol.com wrote:

>>Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
>>I concede this is idealistic on my part, but I've had little to no
>>trouble putting it into practice. Before you spend your money on
>>anything -- conventions, the local comic book store, or whatever else
>>directly affects your Ghoddamn lifestyle/hobby, ask yourself: "What is
>>their position on furry fandom?" If improving furry fandom is so
>>important to you and you're spending money someplace that doesn't like
>>furries, you need to reconsider your priorities. In other words, why
>>give your hard-earned furry dollars to people who don't like furries?
>>MONEY = POWER. Use it wisely.

> If that doesn't sound like the opening salvo on a motion to boycott
>MU, I don't know what does.

If so, he's about three years too late. The time to slap MU upside the
head with a boycott would've been right after SKUNK was published... and
in fact, it _was_ suggested at the time; fortunately for you, furry fans as
a whole are far too disorganized to really pull something like that
together. (More's the pity; maybe if the sales figures on an
expected-to-be-popular title like XANADU could've been driven into the dirt
by an organized boycott, it might've served as a wake-up call...)

But what the hell, better late than never, I suppose...

>Without actually conversing with a creator
>or publisher, how the hell would you know what his or her position on
>anything is? Even here on AFF, there are a number of creators who post who
>-don't- really offer their position. Do you then guess?

"By their works shall ye know them."

Karl Jorgensen

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Apr 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/3/97
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In alt.fan.furry Dr. Cat <c...@bga.com> wrote:
: Hmmm, is it a thread about suggesting ways to improve fandom, or about
: nitpicking other people's suggested ways and showing what's wrong with 'em?

Ya know, the one really nice thing about Xydexx's 10 Ways To Improve Furry
Fandom is that since none of them involve fighting with people who LIKE
furries, I don't really get a lot of flames directed at me for it.

But hey... no need for me to hog the spotlight. I'm sure Chuck Melville
has his own Ten Ways To Improve Furry Fandom list that he'd love to
share with us. I mean, he wouldn't be flaming me for posting a list of
ways to improve furry fandom unless he had an even better list of his own,
right? Yes, always.

So now I'll turn the thread over to Mr. Melville here so he can tell us
the Ten Great Improvements he's been hiding up his sleeve....

Timothy D Fay

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Apr 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/3/97
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Karl Jorgensen (xyd...@smart.net) wrote:

>So now I'll turn the thread over to Mr. Melville here so he can tell us
>the Ten Great Improvements he's been hiding up his sleeve....

So tell me, Karl, how is attacking Chuck supposed to help "improve
furry fandom?" Never mind what he said (if, for no other reason than
it has already scrolled off of my newsserver). If you are so intent
on your Mission to Make Things Better, then you might start by practicing
what you preach.

As an editor at MU Press, Chuck has already done more for "furry" fandom
than many of the people attacking him have ever done, regardless of what
you or I or anyone else thinks of SKUNK. The professional victims who
keep whining about the allegedly awful things that book has done to them
or to furry fandom, etc., remind me of the Trekkies who got upset when
William Shatner told them to "get a life."

So I don't think Chuck has to answer that question. If you're so
intent on doing wonderful things for furry fandom (other than promoting
"spooge"), then Just Do It. (Avoiding flame-pits like a.f.f. might be
a helpful start.)

-Tim
--
Reply to: fayx...@maroon.tc.umn.edu

-- http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m279/fayxx001 --

"My mental facilities are TWICE what yours are -- you pea brain!"
-Percival McLeach


++++ Stop the execution of Mumia Abu-Jamal! ++++
++++ if you agree copy these 3 sentences in your own sig ++++
++++ more info: http://www.xs4all.nl/~tank/spg-l/sigaction.htm ++++


Karl Jorgensen

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Apr 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/4/97
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In alt.fan.furry Timothy D Fay <fayx...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
: So tell me, Karl, how is attacking Chuck supposed to help "improve
: furry fandom?"

Who's attacking him? I'm giving him an opportunity to share his thoughts
on how to improve furry fandom. Of course, if you want to steal the
spotlight, that's fine with me too. Let's hear your ideas, Mr. Fay. -:)

I mean, you couldn't have been spending all this time whining and
complaining about things and not come up with an idea of how to fix it...


.....could you?

Karl Jorgensen

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Apr 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/4/97
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In alt.fan.furry solarfox[at]eden[dot]com <sola...@eden.com> wrote:
: If so, he's about three years too late. The time to slap MU upside the

: head with a boycott would've been right after SKUNK was published...

Boycott? Well, if you want to call it that, you probably could.[1]

However, I wasn't the one who brought up the word. I'm merely saying that
as a consumer I have the right to determine where my hard-earned furry
dollars go. Back when AT&T refused to grant domestic partnership benefits
to a lesbian couple, I switched my phone service to lesbian and gay-owned
Community Spirit. So did a lot of other folks. (AT&T eventually woke up
and realized how much money they were losing because of the large
demographic they were alienating, and I got a direct mail advertisement
from them months later specifically directed at lesbians & gays...)

If Jesse Helms were having a fundraising bake sale, I wouldn't buy
anything from him regardless of how tasty it might be. I know where my
priorities are. It's a bit idealistic to assume you'll know the position
of everyone you deal with, but there's nothing wrong with trying to be an
informed consumer.

The bottom line: If you don't like people who badmouth furry fandom,
don't give them money.[2] Sounds pretty logical to me.[3]

____anthro=furry___===> ANTHROFURRY <===___furry=anthro____
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen, Project Director (xyd...@smart.net)
The Furry Fandom Welcome Wagon: It's About Cute Talking Animals.
Visit our homepage at http://www.smart.net/~xydexx/welcome.htm

[1] And while Chuck Melville's paranoia amuses me, I'm not calling
for a boycott of Mu Press. I'm simply saying that furry fans
who don't like people who badmouth furry fandom shouldn't be
supporting people who badmouth furry fandom with their hard
earned furry dollars. If I don't want to buy anything from
Chuck Melville because of That Zine, that's entirely my choice.
If other furry fans don't want to either, that's a decision for
them as individuals to make, not me.

[2] And who knows, maybe if Chuck Melville wakes up and realizes
just how many people didn't appreciate That Zine, he might
devote his time and effort to something that portrays furry
fandom in a more positive light next time.

[3] But then, I know where my priorities are.

Karl Jorgensen

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Apr 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/4/97
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In alt.fan.furry Michael McGee <mcg...@cadvision.com> wrote:
: In a nutshell, I wanna hook everyone. The furry fans, the superhero
: nuts, the alternative crowd, everyone. By presenting a book about
: furries, not a furry book. A story in which the furries are not just a
: different art style, but the very impeutus and focus of the book - "what
: would it be like to be a hybrid?" "What would it be like to meet a
: hybrid?" "What would a hybrid world be like?" The same way Astro City
: shows that there is life in the superhero genre, I want Hybrids to show
: that furries can be for anyone.
: That's my dream. I'm dead in the water, aren't I?

Hell, no. It sounds like the type of thing we need more of.

I'd buy it. -:)

Richard J. Bartrop

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Apr 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/4/97
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On 3 Apr 1997, Karl Jorgensen wrote:

> In alt.fan.furry Dr. Cat <c...@bga.com> wrote:
> : Hmmm, is it a thread about suggesting ways to improve fandom, or about
> : nitpicking other people's suggested ways and showing what's wrong with 'em?
>
> Ya know, the one really nice thing about Xydexx's 10 Ways To Improve Furry
> Fandom is that since none of them involve fighting with people who LIKE
> furries, I don't really get a lot of flames directed at me for it.
>

Most of them are good. I'm just not sure the one about boycotts is
terribly constructive. I'm sure it would work, as most of the businesses
catering to the fandom are essentially hobbies and not their owners main
source of income, it probably wouldn't take much effort to crush them out
of existence. What then? Say you did succeed in destroying, say, MU
press because you didn't like Mr. Melville's personal beleifs, is it worth
depriving the fandom of all the material that MU publishes, and that some
fans take pleasure in? Also consider the precedent. If we start trying
to financially ruin everyone who's personal beleifs we don't agree
with, there isn't going to be much left.
As to whether this will bring the fandom together, I'll leave it to
you all to decide for yourselves ho much peace and harmony Mr. Crowell
brought to the fandom when he tried to destroy MFC. Is this really
something we should emulate?

Richard J. Bartrop

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Apr 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/4/97
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On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, solarfox[at]eden[dot]com wrote:

> cmelv...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
> If so, he's about three years too late. The time to slap MU upside the

> head with a boycott would've been right after SKUNK was published... and
> in fact, it _was_ suggested at the time; fortunately for you, furry fans as
> a whole are far too disorganized to really pull something like that
> together. (More's the pity; maybe if the sales figures on an
> expected-to-be-popular title like XANADU could've been driven into the dirt
> by an organized boycott, it might've served as a wake-up call...)
>
> But what the hell, better late than never, I suppose...
>

I suppose you could argue that punishing Ms Wyman, denying the fandom a
opportunity to read her work, and generally ensuring we don't get to see
more of it, is small price to pay if it means you can destroy the
publisher of a book you don't like. I suppose we can live without
Rhuddipurrt, the Furkindred, or any of the other books MU puts out if it
means one more dissenting voice can be squashed. Promote harmony in the
fandom by crushing all those who disagree.
If you do succeed is silencing MU, be sure to post here and let us
know. Tell us what a great thing you did. Look how proud DAC Crowell was
of bringing down CFE/MFC. I'm sure poeple would be just as willing to
show your support of the great service you performed.

>
> "By their works shall ye know them."
>

I see. You have no problem with dissenting opinion, as long as noone
actually says it out loud.

Charlie Luce

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Apr 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/4/97
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In article <33426e84...@news.eden.com>, sola...@eden.com says...

First I thought it was some April Fool thing.

Then I figured it was some sort of really clever commentary.

Then my conspiracy-o-rama kicked in and I decided that Chuck was posting in
a special new format that was invisible to aging overweight fanboys, in
order to reduce the flame levels -- if that gets around, it's going to make
Usenet pretty boring from my prespective =^_^=

(and being behind a firewall, fur.* is out)

But after calm consideration (as much as you can crowd into a fifteen
minute soda break, anyway) it suddenly struck me that applying Occam's
Razor (the simplest explanation is usually correct -- conspiracy theorists
have been debating for centuries what Occam's *real* motive was), I could
figure that it was just America Off-Line screwing up again.

Whew! What a relief!

Charlie Luce \ why am I not just lurking, like a sensible person?


Timothy D Fay

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Apr 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/4/97
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Karl Jorgensen (xyd...@smart.net) wrote:
>In alt.fan.furry Timothy D Fay <fayx...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>: So tell me, Karl, how is attacking Chuck supposed to help "improve
>: furry fandom?"

>Who's attacking him?

You were, Karl. At the very least, the tone of your comments to him
were very negative. And suggesting a boycott of the company he works
for, based on _one_ book that was published _years_ ago, does not seem
very complimentary, either.

>I'm giving him an opportunity to share his thoughts
>on how to improve furry fandom. Of course, if you want to steal the
>spotlight, that's fine with me too. Let's hear your ideas, Mr. Fay. -:)

I'm not the one who published the "10 Best Ways to Improve Furry Fandom."
If you fancy yourself as the Savior of Furry Fandom, then let's see what
you got. Chuck has already done his bit. In fact, he still publishes and
edits "furry" comics, in spite of all the ridiculous flames people keep
throwing at him. All you've done, as far as I can tell, is come up with
a list.

So let's see something from you, Karl. Get off the dime. Put up or shut
up.

Glen Wooten

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Apr 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/4/97
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Richard J. Bartrop (rbar...@freenet.calgary.ab.ca) wrote:

: On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, solarfox[at]eden[dot]com wrote:

: > If so, he's about three years too late. The time to slap MU upside the

I'm afraid Richard has got it pretty much spot-on here. While paying
little attention to the facts in this whole thing, a few people are
calling for the downfall of MU, simply because it printed something they
didn't like. Last time I checked, "Collect all the books and put them to
the torch!" was referred to as "book-burning" To say "put them to the
shredder" is but a semantical difference...

Of course, if these same people didn't constantly raise up the rallying
cry "MU's Skunk has single-handedly done ALL the damage to the fandom! It
was a Smurfy (copyright Peyo) world before Skunk came along!", then people
would have toatally ignored Skunk, and Chuck would have a lot more of
those books in his warehouse...

And of course, attempting to raise a boycott against MU would have done
more damage to the fandom than it would have to MU (not that I think it
would have worked very well...) Who was one of the very first "furry"
comic publishers? MU. Who has constantly had furry titles, and NOT said
"furries are great - furries don't sell - furries are great - we're
dumping all our furry stuff..." That would be MU again. While there are
a few publishers NOW who are attempting to venture into the "furry world"
(such as Elin Winkler's RadioComix, or Limelight {with Richard's book},
and I wish nothing but the best to them...), MU is the ONLY publisher that
has been consistently publishing furry titles over the years.

They have a good track record, they pay their people (a problem that some
other large companies have had...), and their quality is good (not
perfect, certainly - but in comparison, they are pretty stellar...)

Proving that the fandom is a good place by YOUR words and YOUR deeds is
the way to show that furry fandom is a good thing. To SAY "I find what he
says offensive" and then DO something negative to punish him for what WAS
a piece of satire is not exactly good karma to counter his percieved bad
karma. But Richard is right, if you do take negative actions to "punish"
MU Press for basically something you didn't like (and that's all...), be
sure to take proper credit for it, so that everyone else will know who to
thank...

--
Glen Wooten
(jag...@netcom.com)

Message has been deleted

Karl Jorgensen

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Apr 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/5/97
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Before I start, I'd just like to say that I think I should make a button
or something that says "Ask Me About My Plans To Organize A Boycott Of Mu
Press!" so that this way when people ask me about it I can reply:


"What plans?"


In alt.fan.furry Glen Wooten <jag...@netcom.com> wrote:
: I'm afraid Richard has got it pretty much spot-on here. While paying
: little attention to the facts in this whole thing...

Well, at least you admit you weren't paying attention.

Let's review:

Chuck Melville, in a paranoid response to one of my posts, was ironically
the first person to mention anything about a boycott against Mu Press.

Here, for the record, is the information Mr. Melville was replying to:

-> I concede this is idealistic on my part, but I've had little to no
-> trouble putting it into practice. Before you spend your money on
-> anything -- conventions, the local comic book store, or whatever
-> else directly affects your Ghoddamn lifestyle/hobby, ask
-> yourself: "What is their position on furry fandom?" If
-> improving furry fandom is so important to you and you're
-> spending money someplace that doesn't like furries, you need to
-> reconsider your priorities. In other words, why give your
-> hard-earned furry dollars to people who don't like furries?
-> MONEY = POWER. Use it wisely.

Maybe my rose-colored glasses need cleaning, but I don't see the words
"Chuck Melville", "Mu Press", or "boycott" _anywhere_ in that paragraph.
It does mention "people who don't like furries", and from where I'm
standing, those are the only folks who'd be upset at such a statement.

I'll let other folks speculate as to why this prompted such a vehement
response from Mr. Melville.[1] Purrsonally I think it's because he's so
eager to flame anything I say that he doesn't think before he posts.

So, just so we all understand what my position is on this: No, I'm not
organizing a boycott of Mu Press. I don't plan on buying anything from
Chuck Melville, personally, because just like I support an artist's right
to draw whatever they like, I also support my right as a consumer to buy
what I like.[2] If I don't like Mr. Melville's incessant badgering and
personal attacks on alt.fan.furry, that's my prerogative. If that's the
way he wants to treat potential customers, that's his prerogative. It's
the same as if I went to a restaurant and the food was great but the
waiter was rude and annoying. There are plenty of other restaurants for
me to go to which are have good food _and_ service.

It's not so much taking negative action against things you don't like,
it's more about taking positive action and supporting things you do like.

Which is what I've been saying all along.

___"You're mocking me, aren't you?" -- Buzz Lightyear, Toy Story___
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen, High Priest Of Latex (xyd...@smart.net)
Xydexx Squeakypony's House Of Rose-Colored Eyewear -- Open 24 Hours
"Ask About Our Plans To Organize A Boycott Against Mu Press."


[1] Especially since I was thinking about the Wired article, not
Chuck Melville, when I wrote it. (I buy Internet Underground,
purrsonally.)

[2] Of course, don't be offended if I don't buy anything from you.
The stuff I buy at furry conventions tends to vary depending on
what I'm looking for, how much money I have to spend, or if
I'm just looking around and planning to buy stuff later. Just
because I like, say, unicorns, does not mean I'm automatically
going to buy absolutely everything I can find with a unicorn on
it. It doesn't necessarily mean I don't like you or something.

Glen Wooten

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Apr 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/5/97
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Karl Jorgensen (xyd...@smart.net) wrote:

: In alt.fan.furry Glen Wooten <jag...@netcom.com> wrote:
: : I'm afraid Richard has got it pretty much spot-on here. While paying
: : little attention to the facts in this whole thing...

: Well, at least you admit you weren't paying attention.

If you're going to quote me, don't take it out of context, that was not at
all what I said. If someone has anything above a single-digit IQ, they'd
see that I was referring to the people who are continually bringing up the
whole Skunk thing again & again, getting all the facts wrong, then crying
"Why does this keep coming up again & again?"

And if this is an attempt at "humour", it REALLY needs some work...

--
Glen Wooten
(jag...@netcom.com)

Richard J. Bartrop

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Apr 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/5/97
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On 4 Apr 1997, Karl Jorgensen wrote:

>
> Boycott? Well, if you want to call it that, you probably could.[1]
>

[examples of successful boycotts}


>
> The bottom line: If you don't like people who badmouth furry fandom,
> don't give them money.[2] Sounds pretty logical to me.[3]
>

Perhaps you should post a list of those companies and individuals who are
Enemies of the Fandom.
This would cetainly help those who wish to follow your example, not
to mention, let the offending party know that they have offended you.

I'm sure Xydexx's List of Banned Books would be very illuminating.

Richard Bartrop
writer/artist, "Zaibatsu Tears"

Karl Xydexx Jorgensen

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Apr 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/5/97
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Richard J. Bartrop wrote:

> > On 3 Apr 1997, Karl Jorgensen wrote:
> > Ya know, the one really nice thing about Xydexx's 10 Ways To Improve Furry
> > Fandom is that since none of them involve fighting with people who LIKE
> > furries, I don't really get a lot of flames directed at me for it.
>
> Most of them are good. I'm just not sure the one about boycotts is
> terribly constructive.

Uh, which one about boycotts?

The only person who's mentioned anything about organizing a boycott
is Chuck Melville. Not me.

____________________________________________
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen (xyd...@smart.net)
Posting via my Netscape News thingy.........

Karl Xydexx Jorgensen

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Apr 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/5/97
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Xydexx was having such a nice day until Timothy D Fay wrote:
> Karl Jorgensen (xyd...@smart.net) wrote:
> >Who's attacking [Chuck Melville]?
> You were, Karl.

Oh, cry me a river, Mr. Fay. Sure, I'll admit I wasn't exactly nice to
him, but that pales in comparison to the volley of flamage and personal
attacks he sent in my direction for the Heinous Crime of posting ten
ways to improve furry fandom.

But heck, I get flamed for saying I had a good time at Confurence 8, so
nothing really surprises me too much on this newsgroup.

> And suggesting a boycott of the company he works for, based on _one_
> book that was published _years_ ago, does not seem very complimentary,
> either.

I'm suggesting a boycott of Mu Press? Since when?

It's amazing, Chuck Melville mentions the word "boycott" and 24 hours
later everyone thinks one actually exists. Except me.

I hear "gullible" isn't in the dictionary, either. -:)



> I'm not the one who published the "10 Best Ways to Improve Furry Fandom."

Flattery will get you nowhere, Mr. Fay. So while you think they may be the
best ways to improve furry fandom, I'll point out that the actual title is
"Xydexx's 10 Ways To Improve Furry Fandom", and if remember correctly, also
says nothing about being the "best" ways to do so. It -is- a bigger list
than you and Mr. Melville combined have come up with, so I guess if you
say it's the "best" I should take that as a compliment. Thank you.

> If you fancy yourself as the Savior of Furry Fandom[snip]

Damn, one minute I'm Public Enemy Number One and the next I'm Savior of
Furry Fandom. You make me want to eat wild yams. I think maybe I'll
stick with the title of High Priest Of Latex for now. Thanks anyway.

> All you've done, as far as I can tell, is come up with a list.

You forgot to mention I've done or am currently doing everything on
said list. Don't worry, you're forgiven. Everyone makes mistakes.

> So let's see something from you, Karl.

By the way, am I correct in assuming that since your response was
high on flamage and low on substance that you can't come up with
ten ways to improve furry fandom either? I just wanted to be sure
about this, because if all you're going to do is flame me then I'll
plonk you into my net.kook file and be done with ya.

__"You're mocking me, aren't you?" --- Buzz Lightyear, Toy Story__


Karl Xydexx Jorgensen, High Priest Of Latex (xyd...@smart.net)

The Furry Fandom Welcome Wagon: It'll Run You Over. Muahahah.
Visit our homepage at http://www.smart.net/~xydexx/quing.htm

Nrasser

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Apr 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/5/97
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Michael McGee <mcg...@cadvision.com> wrote in article
<3345D5...@cadvision.com>...
> Sigh...
> Last time I try and start a positive thread going. I simply asked if
> anyone out there had any ideas as to how to improve the fandom. We toss
> 'em all out into the center, pick the ones we personally like, and go
> out and do them. Alas, nothing in this newsgroup is ever that simple...
> (Wait, here come the flames... not from me, but I guarantee someone's
> gonna flame this post...)
>
To be perfectly honest, I though Karl's post - his first one, anyways
> was on topic. You may not agree with it, but you can't deny he actually
> came up with not one, but ten ways one could improve this place. Then
> Chuck feels threatened, Karl retaliated, everyone joined in. I give it
> about three to four days before a battle royal ensues, and those with a
> smidgen of sense take off for the bleachers or, in my case, resign
> ourselves to playing Red Alert instead of reading about furry things.
> Then it'll die down, we'll putz along for a while, then some poor shmoe
> is gonna start up a nice innocent thread about furries and BAM! here we
> go again.

Sounds like a need for a new newsgroup..

Alt.Flame.Furry!

--
--------------------------
Nrasser<at>cp.duluth.mn.us
--------------------------
Who dives back into the forest, to lurk once again..

FC1.2 FFP3mr A>+ C+>++ D H+ M+ P R+++ T++++ W Z Sm RLMC/CT-Tech
A+ C+++dnw$ D++ E+/** f+ H** i++ wf p+ sm#

Firm believer in the freedoms of choice and of free speech.

Karl Jorgensen

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Apr 6, 1997, 4:00:00 AM4/6/97
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But then, if people were paying more attention this whole "boycott"
nonsense wouldn't have started in the first place. Right?

____anthro=furry___===> ANTHROFURRY <===___furry=anthro____
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen, Project Director (xyd...@smart.net)
The Furry Fandom Welcome Wagon: It's About Cute Talking Animals.

Visit our homepage at http://www.smart.net/~xydexx/welcome.htm


Karl Jorgensen

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Apr 6, 1997, 4:00:00 AM4/6/97
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In alt.fan.furry Richard J. Bartrop <rbar...@freenet.calgary.ab.ca> wrote:
: Perhaps you should post a list of those companies and individuals who are
: Enemies of the Fandom.

Well, I'd make a list, but I'm afraid I'd be at the top of it. There's
nothing more detrimental to furry fandom than someone who enjoys it, after
all. Besides, someone's already made a Six Shallow Graves list.

: I'm sure Xydexx's List of Banned Books would be very illuminating.

I'm sure it would be, if I was actually interested in banning anything.

But I'm not.

Karl Jorgensen

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Apr 6, 1997, 4:00:00 AM4/6/97
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In alt.fan.furry Michael McGee <mcg...@cadvision.com> wrote:
: Last time I try and start a positive thread going.

I know the feeling.[1]

: To be perfectly honest, I though Karl's post - his first one, anyways -
: was on topic. You may not agree with it, but you can't deny he actually


: came up with not one, but ten ways one could improve this place.

Thanks, I've been working on it for some time. I could probably think of
more, but ten was a nice round number to stop at and if I thought of any
more I'd feel obligated to do them, and I'm already doing enough of the
things on that list as it is.

: Karl, Chuck, I most certainly would prefer if you guys were to fight in
: private E-mail.

I'd prefer if we didn't fight at all, purrsonally.

____anthro=furry___===> ANTHROFURRY <===___furry=anthro____
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen, Project Director (xyd...@smart.net)

The Furry Fandom Welcome Wagon: It's Nice To Be A Squeaky Pony.

[1] But I'm not going to bring it up here.

Karl Xydexx Jorgensen

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Apr 6, 1997, 4:00:00 AM4/6/97
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Michael McGee wrote:
> Frankly, I was hoping we could be more innovative than that.


How's this...?

Subject: How To Improve Furry Fandom
From: xyd...@smart.net (Karl Jorgensen)
Date: 1996/12/30
Message-Id: <5a7shn$1g8$1...@news.smart.net>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.furry
[More Headers]

In alt.fan.furry Xydexx <xyd...@smart.net> wrote:
: To be honest, the Furry Fandom Welcome Wagon exists because I wanted
: to show there's more productive ways to improve furry fandom than
: infighting with other furry fans.
:
: My webpage is something to bring furries together, not something to make
: them fight with each other.

One more post and then I'm off to bed, I promise...

I've said this once before, but I'll say it again just to drive the point
firmly home: The ONLY way anyone is going to improve furry fandom is by
working with furries instead of fighting against them. That means doing
something more productive with time than playing the Blame Game. It
means working together with other furries to build a better fandom instead
of trying to divide it. It means making furry fandom a cool place for
everyone who likes anthropomorphics no matter who they are. Period.

Thank you and goodnight.


____anthro=furry___===> ANTHROFURRY <===___furry=anthro____
Karl Xydexx Jorgensen, Project Director (xyd...@smart.net)

The Furry Fandom Welcome Wagon: It's About Cute Talking Animals.

Richard Chandler

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Apr 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/7/97
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Nope Glen, Xydexx quoting you out of context in a way that appears
insulting is merely SOP for him. You begin to recognise it after a while,
although this was a pretty easy and blatant example.

I wonder if this is what defines "working together"?

--
On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog... but they can tell right
off the bat if you're an idiot! -- Me
http://www.teleport.com/~mauser/ Gallery Web Page
"Yeah, I've got ADD, wanna make something of.... oooh, cool. Look!"

Karl Xydexx Jorgensen

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Apr 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/7/97
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[Xydexx wanders by, smiles, and slaps a label on your newsfeed...]


- K I L L F I L E N O T I C E -


Xydexx has killfiled this thread and will not be responding
to it in the future.

If you are interested in having a serious discussion with Xydexx
about this topic, you may send email to xyd...@smart.net

Flames and personal attacks will be cheerfully ignored.


KILLFILE.TXT - rev. 04/06/97

TedSchller

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Apr 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/11/97
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Michael McGee wrote


> Sounds like a need for a new newsgroup..

> Alt.Flame.Furry!

Use alt.fan.mastication
It is empty and you can chew somefurry to your heart's content.

Ted

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