Fur Yr Info: Top Ten Reasons NOT to attend Albany Anthrocon

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tsu...@biosci.cbs.umn.edu

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Feb 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/17/97
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With an unprecedented FOUR furry conventions (or, three plus one
sizable furry track at Duckon), the question of which one to go to is
no longer academic nor even geographic. So to help out those
undecideds, here are my:

Top Ten Reasons NOT To Go To Albany Anthrocon

10. The Moreau Awards, part I: It's a nice idea to want to reward the
best in Furry fandom, and setting it up like the Hugos makes sense,
but where the Hugos reward individual works, the Moreau awards honor
creators. This is obviously not too well thought out. Furry fandom
is not that dynamic a community that a large group of new talent
enters it every year. If the awards are to be given out every year,
they ought to honor something that has a chance of changing during
that year, like stories or pieces of art released in that year. A
couple of the categories are okay, but "Best Furry Artist"? Come on.

9. Art Show: The art show director is a (former?) furry artist who has

publicly stated in the past that she dislikes furry fandom and hates
drawing for them.

8. Timing, part I: It's scheduled the same weekend as Chicago Comicon,

one of only two major comic conventions in the country (and the other
is in San Diego, much less accessible to the east coast -- and,
incidentally, less than a month later).

7. Timing, part II: It's July 4th weekend! It's the major holiday
weekend of the summer.

6. Being in the eastern region, AAC is obviously competing with
MoreFurCon, and rumor has it that it was started because people
weren't happy with how CFE was run. I can't think of another reason
to have *another* east coast convention. This whole branching out of
conventions is something I find really annoying -- it's going to
result in a regionalization of the fandom, with a bunch of local
conventions and no single convention where *everyone* goes.
CFE/MoreFurCon is okay, I guess, because there are people who can't
afford to go to California. Duckon is cool because it's in the
midwest, in the summer, and it's a very low-key thing, not played up
as a Big Furry Con. MoreFurCon is starting to draw attendance from
the West Coast, which is a good thing. AAC is going to be taking
attendance away from MoreFurCon and Duckon, which is not a good thing.


5. I (and many others) was notified that I could get my membership
paid for if I sat on panels for the con! Reading further down the
message, I found that I'd have to participate in FIVE panels to get
the $15 membership back. I was asked as a writer, so presumably this
applied to writing panels. At all of ConFurence (I counted) there
were only FOUR panels devoted to writing. And the one I attended had
about 15-20 people there, out of the 1000+ members. So either AAC is
planning a ridiculous number of panels, to be attended by less than
one percent of the membership, or there would really be no way for me
to earn back my membership fee. Either way, it's not making me want
to attend the con.

4. The Moreau Awards, part II: Okay, this is one thing that REALLY
annoyed me. Given the shaky premise (see #10) that furry fandom is
big enough to have these awards, where is the logical place to have
them? The Hugos are voted on at WorldCon, the LARGEST SF convention
of the year. Wouldn't the logical place to start this be CF? Does
AAC really think they're going to snag over a thousand people their
first time out? It's an unproven convention, and they want to be the
repository for the awards for the best in furry fandom. Well, if they

were doing this because they wanted to recognize the best contributors

to the fandom, they'd organize the awards to have it at CF. Having it

at AAC in its first year makes it a cheap marketing shtick to drag
people to their convention. I want no part of that.

3. Location,

2. Location,

1. LOCATION: Okay, so you want to run a convention with a national
scope (as AAC is being marketed). What is your TOP, #1, above all
else priority in location? Is it ... to be where most of the con
staff live? *bzzzzt* Sorry, WRONG answer, thank you for playing our
game. Your top priority in deciding where to hold the con is to make
it easily accessible to as many people as possible, and these days,
that means locating it near a MAJOR airport. And Albany does not
qualify.
It only adds insult to injury that they claim on the official
web page that they "didn't just choose Albany because most of the con
staff live there." Right. Any of you who believe that, email me.
I've got some great land in Florida to sell you. I'm sure Albany is a
lovely city. There are hundreds of cities in the United States that
have airports, and I could go to any one of them and take some nice
photos and fill a web page with nice things about it (except for
Trenton, NJ). That does NOT make them good sites for a convention.
To illustrate: a friend of mine ran price comparisons for airline
fares from several random U.S. cities around the country to L.A. and
to Albany for the same weekend on different airlines. He found that
the fares to Albany were consistently higher, by $100-$250. And some
cities couldn't even reach Albany as a destination. (And yes,
Cleveland is a fairly major airport. It's a hub for Continental now.)


I'm starting to think I should go to MoreFurCon just as a sort of
protest vote.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Tim Susman (Malin@FurryMUCK) | "'The question is,' said Alice,
tsu...@biosci.cbs.umn.edu | 'whether you *can* make words
mean so many different things.'"


Nick F Brienza

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Feb 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/17/97
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In the interest of the equal time clause, here are my Top Ten Reasons to
Go to Albany Anthrocon:

10. There's already entirely too much negativity in furry fandom already,
and a new round of con politicking will do nothing to strengthen the
fandom.

9. It's coming in right on the heels of one of the ugliest series
of lifestyle vs. fandom flamewars every to darken this group. Therefore it
makes a wonderful test case to see if furries will ever learn the gentle
art of compromise (DAMMIT! ;) ).

8. The Art Show. It's hosted by a former furry artist who still likes
furries and seems to be reconsidering a rapprochement with furry fandom.
This is a great opportunity to go, meet the artists, and prove that you're
not one of the over-demanding twits who made them hate drawing for the
fandom in the first place.

7. Timing, part I. It's over the weekend of my birthday! If I'm the only
one there, who's going sing to me?! ;)

6. It's going to result in a regionalization of the fandom, or at least a
balkanization, where each fan goes only to the cons whose personality
suits hir. Judging from the tenor of this group for the last couple of
years, might that not be a good thing? That way you could just attend the
con that represents your own tiny microscopic little splinter faction of
furry and never worry about all those other big scary nasty perverts/
moralists/Christians/pagans/fans/artists/liberals/conservatives/walruses who
aren't like you...

5. AAC is encouraging people to go to panels! Maybe if we all politely
point out to them their attendance requirement is a little excessive,
they'll listen!

4. There is no number 4.

3. IT HASN'T HAPPENED YET! Criticizing an event that hasn't happened yet
is perfectly within your rights, and there are some valid points to be
made about AAC's potential strengths and weaknesses, but boycotting it
altogether before anybody has seen the finished results isn't
necessarily real productive. It really upset me to see that people are
trying to scuttle this event, which happens to work out very *well* for
me, before it even happens.

2. If we both go, I can meet this Tim Susman guy in person, buy him a
drink, and work out my differences with him like a civilized human being
(er, sorry) instead of over this damned impersonal newsgroup, where every
attempt at gentle satire seems to end up sounding like flamebait. Sorry
about that, Tim... :-|

1. There will be lots of cool furries there! (Unless, of course, the
typical a.f.f rumor, hearsay, and backbiting drives everybody away
first...)

Rubin the Radical Raccoon (h...@io.com)

PS Did I mention it's my birthday that weekend? <grin>

--
"We lived on Magic, and still do, and I have to say it beats anything
systematic." -- Ray Mungo, _Famous Long Ago_

Alexacoon

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Feb 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/17/97
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While I agree with you on many points I am afraid I have a few important
reasons For attending AAC. First this will be my first trip to a Con with
Furry content and I have to consider expenses for the trip. Albany is only
a couple of hours from home and I can commute if I cannot afford a room.

I hope to meet enough friendly Furries to encourage my venturing out to a
more distant Con in the future. As I asked before somewhere around ALF
would you or someone reading this reply be kind enough to post a schedule
of some kind?

Thank you in advance. I will now scurry back off to work. Alexacoon

Glen Wooten

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Feb 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/17/97
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NOT getting into the subjective issues here, but...

Mitchell Marmel (marm...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu) wrote:
: In article <5e8sp8$q...@epx.cis.umn.edu>, <tsu...@biosci.cbs.umn.edu> wrote:

: >6. Being in the eastern region, AAC is obviously competing with

: >MoreFurCon, and rumor has it that it was started because people
: >weren't happy with how CFE was run.

: And CFE started because Trish was unhappy with how Philcon was run. Your
: point being?

: >I can't think of another reason to have *another* east coast convention.

: Um...because Cleveland isn't the east coast, except perhaps in relation
: to Hawaii? ;)

Well, having the convention most anywhere on the northeastern section of
the country will make it inconvienent for SOMEONE - Cleveland's no worse
than Newark, or Philadelphia, or Boston. The fact that it's not RIGHT on
the seaboard doesn't affect it. The fact that it has good air & road
access IS a good thing.

Having previously lived on the east coast, I understand the concept of
"it's not in my backyard", which is different than the west coast, where
you'd only expect a major (or minor) convention to be in one of just a
few cities...

: >1. LOCATION: Okay, so you want to run a convention with a national

: >scope (as AAC is being marketed). What is your TOP, #1, above all
: >else priority in location? Is it ... to be where most of the con
: >staff live? *bzzzzt* Sorry, WRONG answer, thank you for playing our
: >game.

: This, of course, is why CFE/MFC is held in Philadelphia, and CF in Los
: Angeles. What's that? MFC is held about a 20 minute drive from the con
: chair's house, and CF is held about a 20 minute drive from the con
: chair's house? Fancy that!

Well, CF doesn't NEED to be held in El Segundo (the area RIGHT by LAX),
because the whole LA basin is covered by LAX-SNA-ONT-BUR, so airport
access to anywhere in the area is assured. Cleveland is a major highway
hub, and is a hub for Continental, so cheap airfares are assured.

The fact that Mark & Trish live near these areas is just a
coincidence... If Trish lived in Akron, or Mark lived in Ywenty Nine
Palms, that would be different...

: >Your top priority in deciding where to hold the con is to make

: >it easily accessible to as many people as possible, and these days,
: >that means locating it near a MAJOR airport. And Albany does not
: >qualify.

: (scritches his head) Last I checked, they DO fly Real Live Airplanes
: (like DC-8s and such) into Albany.

Well, that depends on if you classify DC-8's as REAL airplanes (sorry,
I'm not keen on the whole DC series {with the exception of the DC-3 and
DC-4...}) The fact is that Albany is classified as a tertiary airport,
so while SEVERAL of the major carriers fly into it, their schedules are
limited, and their prices are MUCH higher...

: > It only adds insult to injury that they claim on the official

: >web page that they "didn't just choose Albany because most of the con
: >staff live there. Right. Any of you who believe that, email me.
: >I've got some great land in Florida to sell you.

: Welp, let's see. The Dealer's Room director lives in Philadelphia, and
: the Art Show director in California, for starters. That diverse enough
: for you?

: >lovely city. There are hundreds of cities in the United States that

: >have airports, and I could go to any one of them and take some nice
: >photos and fill a web page with nice things about it (except for
: >Trenton, NJ). That does NOT make them good sites for a convention.

: And, oh, say, Newark and Cleveland are simply SWINGING convention towns, too?

Actually, scary as it might seem, Cleveland gets a LOT of convention
business. They are geared for it...

: > To illustrate: a friend of mine ran price comparisons for airline

: >fares from several random U.S. cities around the country to L.A. and
: >to Albany for the same weekend on different airlines. He found that
: >the fares to Albany were consistently higher, by $100-$250. And some
: >cities couldn't even reach Albany as a destination. (And yes,
: >Cleveland is a fairly major airport. It's a hub for Continental now.)

: You've pointed out a definite area for improvement: CF has Ladera Travel
: and MFC has some sort of travel agency, I think, too; AAC definitely
: needs some sort of travel agent to ferret out good fares, make discount
: arrangements with the airlines and so forth. Thanks for the suggestion.

Albany is supposed to be upgrading their facility, and after that, it
might help, but the problem right now is that there is just too little
traffic into the area, the rates will not be good until the traffic
increases...

--
Glen Wooten
(jag...@netcom.com)
(alternate: jag...@pro-amber.cts.com)

Mitchell Marmel

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Feb 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/17/97
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In article <jaguar1E...@netcom.com>,
Glen Wooten <jag...@netcom.com> wrote:

>: Um...because Cleveland isn't the east coast, except perhaps in relation
>: to Hawaii? ;)
>
>Well, having the convention most anywhere on the northeastern section of
>the country will make it inconvienent for SOMEONE - Cleveland's no worse
>than Newark, or Philadelphia, or Boston. The fact that it's not RIGHT on
>the seaboard doesn't affect it. The fact that it has good air & road
>access IS a good thing.

Cleveland is still closer to Midwest than East Coast, but I'll go along
with you on the good air and road connections.

>Having previously lived on the east coast, I understand the concept of
>"it's not in my backyard", which is different than the west coast, where
>you'd only expect a major (or minor) convention to be in one of just a
>few cities...

(nod-nods) Has to do with the relative crowding of the DC-Boston axis.
Folks are used to not having to go more than a (relatively) few miles to
get anywhere. After I came back to Philadelphia after living near LAX
for a couple of years, it took awhile to get reused to the "60 miles is a
considerable journey in these parts!" mentality... :)

>: This, of course, is why CFE/MFC is held in Philadelphia, and CF in Los
>: Angeles. What's that? MFC is held about a 20 minute drive from the con
>: chair's house, and CF is held about a 20 minute drive from the con
>: chair's house? Fancy that!
>
>Well, CF doesn't NEED to be held in El Segundo (the area RIGHT by LAX),
>because the whole LA basin is covered by LAX-SNA-ONT-BUR, so airport
>access to anywhere in the area is assured. Cleveland is a major highway
>hub, and is a hub for Continental, so cheap airfares are assured.

Which is nice for MFC, I suppose. OTOH, try catching a train to
Independence, OH or Buena Vista, CA sometime. :)

>The fact that Mark & Trish live near these areas is just a

>coincidence... If Trish lived in Akron, or Mark lived in Twenty Nine

>Palms, that would be different...

Both Mark and Trish have gone on record as stating that they located
their respective cons so as to be convenient to their respective homes.
Nothing intrinistically WRONG with THAT, is there?

>: (scritches his head) Last I checked, they DO fly Real Live Airplanes
>: (like DC-8s and such) into Albany.
>
>Well, that depends on if you classify DC-8's as REAL airplanes (sorry,
>I'm not keen on the whole DC series {with the exception of the DC-3 and
>DC-4...})

I refer to the MD-80 as the AD(Ass Deadening)-80, myself, so your point
is taken.

But DOES the DC-7 eat its young? ;)

>The fact is that Albany is classified as a tertiary airport,
>so while SEVERAL of the major carriers fly into it, their schedules are
>limited, and their prices are MUCH higher...

(nod-nods) True enough, and I'd like to see that question addressed, if
possible. Perhaps a deal can be struck with one of the carriers in question?

>: And, oh, say, Newark and Cleveland are simply SWINGING convention towns, too?
>
>Actually, scary as it might seem, Cleveland gets a LOT of convention
>business. They are geared for it...

Brrrrr. :)

>Albany is supposed to be upgrading their facility, and after that, it
>might help, but the problem right now is that there is just too little
>traffic into the area, the rates will not be good until the traffic
>increases...

See my above response regarding rates.

Cordially,

-MMM-

--
Dealer's Room Director, AAC-1
HTTP://www.wizvax.net/aloyen/AAC97/

(Note: Please cc: any Usenet replies to
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Glen Wooten

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Feb 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/17/97
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Mitchell Marmel (marm...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu) wrote:
: In article <jaguar1E...@netcom.com>,
: Glen Wooten <jag...@netcom.com> wrote:

: >Having previously lived on the east coast, I understand the concept of

: >"it's not in my backyard", which is different than the west coast, where
: >you'd only expect a major (or minor) convention to be in one of just a
: >few cities...

: (nod-nods) Has to do with the relative crowding of the DC-Boston axis.

: Folks are used to not having to go more than a (relatively) few miles to
: get anywhere. After I came back to Philadelphia after living near LAX
: for a couple of years, it took awhile to get reused to the "60 miles is a
: considerable journey in these parts!" mentality... :)

When I lived in Winston, more than 5 miles to something was "a long
way". When I moved to Charlotte, it turned to 15. In San Diego, more
like 30. In the LA area, try 45 or so...

: >: This, of course, is why CFE/MFC is held in Philadelphia, and CF in Los

: >: Angeles. What's that? MFC is held about a 20 minute drive from the con
: >: chair's house, and CF is held about a 20 minute drive from the con
: >: chair's house? Fancy that!
: >
: >Well, CF doesn't NEED to be held in El Segundo (the area RIGHT by LAX),
: >because the whole LA basin is covered by LAX-SNA-ONT-BUR, so airport
: >access to anywhere in the area is assured. Cleveland is a major highway
: >hub, and is a hub for Continental, so cheap airfares are assured.

: Which is nice for MFC, I suppose. OTOH, try catching a train to

: Independence, OH or Buena Vista, CA sometime. :)

Note I didn't say ANYTHING about Amtrak... WHEREVER it goes...

: >The fact that Mark & Trish live near these areas is just a
: >coincidence... If Trish lived in Akron, or Mark lived in Twenty Nine

: >Palms, that would be different...

: Both Mark and Trish have gone on record as stating that they located

: their respective cons so as to be convenient to their respective homes.
: Nothing intrinistically WRONG with THAT, is there?

No, of course not. I was merely pointing out that they live in the
backyard of some major convention areas / travel hubs... If they lived
WAY out of the "mainstream" areas for ease of access, it would be a
different story...

: >: (scritches his head) Last I checked, they DO fly Real Live Airplanes

: >: (like DC-8s and such) into Albany.
: >
: >Well, that depends on if you classify DC-8's as REAL airplanes (sorry,
: >I'm not keen on the whole DC series {with the exception of the DC-3 and
: >DC-4...})

: I refer to the MD-80 as the AD(Ass Deadening)-80, myself, so your point
: is taken.

Actually, I don't have too much of a problem with the whole MD series.
They have a much better track record than the DC series does...

: But DOES the DC-7 eat its young? ;)

There are scarier looking airliners...

: >The fact is that Albany is classified as a tertiary airport,

: >so while SEVERAL of the major carriers fly into it, their schedules are
: >limited, and their prices are MUCH higher...

: (nod-nods) True enough, and I'd like to see that question addressed, if


: possible. Perhaps a deal can be struck with one of the carriers in question?

From what I can gather, the BIG carrier into Albany is USAir (a horror in
their own right...) You might see if they have a "convention desk"...

: >: And, oh, say, Newark and Cleveland are simply SWINGING convention towns, too?


: >
: >Actually, scary as it might seem, Cleveland gets a LOT of convention
: >business. They are geared for it...

: Brrrrr. :)

You'd rather go to Branson, Missourri?

Mitchell Marmel

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Feb 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/17/97
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In article <jaguar1E...@netcom.com>,
Glen Wooten <jag...@netcom.com> wrote:

>When I lived in Winston, more than 5 miles to something was "a long
>way". When I moved to Charlotte, it turned to 15. In San Diego, more
>like 30. In the LA area, try 45 or so...

Sounds about right. My (late) father lived in Woodland Hills (east SF
Valley) and worked at JPL in Pasadena. 60 mile commute each way, roughly.

>: Which is nice for MFC, I suppose. OTOH, try catching a train to
>: Independence, OH or Buena Vista, CA sometime. :)
>
>Note I didn't say ANYTHING about Amtrak... WHEREVER it goes...

(gryn)

>No, of course not. I was merely pointing out that they live in the
>backyard of some major convention areas / travel hubs... If they lived
>WAY out of the "mainstream" areas for ease of access, it would be a
>different story...

Ah. Gotcha. So, by your reasoning, Albany should simply forget it or
relocate 'cause they're not in a major convention area/travel hub?

>Actually, I don't have too much of a problem with the whole MD series.
>They have a much better track record than the DC series does...

Ummmm...you DO know that an MD-80 IS a DC-8, and an MD-90 is a DC-9,
don't you? Exact same airplane, just a different designation. And the
MD-11 is a slightly worked over DC-10 (nice planes, DC-10s; one of the
more comfortable cross-country flyers).

>: But DOES the DC-7 eat its young? ;)
>
>There are scarier looking airliners...

Ectually, I've never SEEN a DC-7. IIRC, it was a short-lived prop job
which got the boot when Boeing put out the 707.


>From what I can gather, the BIG carrier into Albany is USAir (a horror in
>their own right...)

Brrrrrrrr.

> You might see if they have a "convention desk"...

It's a thought...

>You'd rather go to Branson, Missourri?

I've LIVED in Cleveland. Never seen Branson. Might make a nice change
of pace for a visit... :)

Amara

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Feb 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/17/97
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<snip>

All together, one two three.. "Spoil Sport!" :)

Nyah!

Amara- Who's going to AAC because it sounds friendly and fun and stuff :)
(if she can get there)

"We count 30 rebel ships, Lord Vader, but our men are so pissed they
couldn't hit a bull's butt with a bass fiddle."
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
Amy 'Amara' Pronovost: Anthro/Star Wars artist, Star Wars Cool Girl,
Official rassm Cool person, Psychovixen, Biologist.
am...@snowmeow.com <*> http://rat.org/amara <*>


cmelv...@aol.com

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Feb 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/17/97
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>With an unprecedented FOUR furry conventions (or, three plus one
>sizable furry track at Duckon), the question of which one to go to is
>no longer academic nor even geographic. So to help out those
>undecideds, here are my:
>
>Top Ten Reasons NOT To Go To Albany Anthrocon
>
>10. The Moreau Awards, part I: It's a nice idea to want to reward the
>best in Furry fandom, and setting it up like the Hugos makes sense,
>but where the Hugos reward individual works, the Moreau awards honor
>creators. This is obviously not too well thought out. Furry fandom
>is not that dynamic a community that a large group of new talent
>enters it every year. If the awards are to be given out every year,
>they ought to honor something that has a chance of changing during
>that year, like stories or pieces of art released in that year. A
>couple of the categories are okay, but "Best Furry Artist"? Come on.

Obviously you need to discuss this directly with the con committee, if you feel this way. It's their perogative to give out awards however they see fit. (Or is the awards committee a different body?) You may well be right; perhaps the rules or manner of choosing the categories need to be adjusted. But this is a first year con... they need a little bit of slack in order to get started. All things are negotiable.

>9. Art Show: The art show director is a (former?) furry artist who has
>publicly stated in the past that she dislikes furry fandom and hates
>drawing for them.

Wrong. Tygger has never said that to my knowledge. She dislikes the image furry fandom has acquired, and she's been fed-up with the behavior of certain fans and fan attitudes in relation to her work or her decisions on subject matter. Not the same thing. And she's obviously taken a position here at the con in order to work towards what she considers a more positive outlook for the fandom.

>8. Timing, part I: It's scheduled the same weekend as Chicago Comicon,
>one of only two major comic conventions in the country (and the other
>is in San Diego, much less accessible to the east coast -- and,
>incidentally, less than a month later).

This is a point which has been made previously. Basically, any time at all during the summer is going to conflict with a major comic book or sf convention. It doesn't make any difference. But to do it during the 'off-season' will only then bring it into conflict with the other furry cons. At least during the summer, there's a chance it will bring in more furry fans, for whom the con was intended anyway.

>7. Timing, part II: It's July 4th weekend! It's the major holiday
>weekend of the summer.

That could either work for it, or against it. It will certainly make travel a headache, that is certain. But it also takes into consideration that most attendees will not have to worry about school, and will most likely have the weekend off from their jobs.

>6. Being in the eastern region, AAC is obviously competing with
>MoreFurCon, and rumor has it that it was started because people
>weren't happy with how CFE was run.

I don't know anything about that, but even if true, MoreFurCon began the same way, as a dissatisfaction with PhilCon one year. More importantly, I don't really see how the two cons are in competition with one another when they are at least four months apart. I'm sure most fans who can will be happy to attend both.
That both cons are on the same coast is, firstly, irrelevant, and secondly, a matter of happenstance: it's where the organizers live. If you really want a con in another location, help to organize one there.

>5. I (and many others) was notified that I could get my membership
>paid for if I sat on panels for the con! Reading further down the
>message, I found that I'd have to participate in FIVE panels to get
>the $15 membership back. I was asked as a writer, so presumably this
>applied to writing panels. At all of ConFurence (I counted) there
>were only FOUR panels devoted to writing. And the one I attended had
>about 15-20 people there, out of the 1000+ members. So either AAC is
>planning a ridiculous number of panels, to be attended by less than
>one percent of the membership, or there would really be no way for me
>to earn back my membership fee. Either way, it's not making me want
>to attend the con.

I've no real comment, other than that I'm not having a problem with the situation. (I was also invited under the same terms.) I would assume that this was either pointed out beforehand, or that their written invitation allowed you an 'out' in that you only needed to attend one panel in order to get your membership? And there -are- other panels you can still attend, such as the debate panels; ou don't -need- to stick only to the writer panels.
More importantly, have you discussed any of this with the con committee, to clarify your situation once and for all? There may simply be a miscommunication between you.

>4. The Moreau Awards, part II: Okay, this is one thing that REALLY
>annoyed me. Given the shaky premise (see #10) that furry fandom is
>big enough to have these awards, where is the logical place to have
>them? The Hugos are voted on at WorldCon, the LARGEST SF convention
>of the year. Wouldn't the logical place to start this be CF? Does
>AAC really think they're going to snag over a thousand people their
>first time out? It's an unproven convention, and they want to be the
>repository for the awards for the best in furry fandom. Well, if they
>were doing this because they wanted to recognize the best contributors
>to the fandom, they'd organize the awards to have it at CF. Having it
>at AAC in its first year makes it a cheap marketing shtick to drag
>people to their convention. I want no part of that.

If awards were an important enough consideration to Confurence, then they would have thought of it and done something about it before now. But the location really isn't a big deal. As you say, the HUGOs are awarded at Worldcon; but the comic book Harveys, which had been given out at the Dallas Comic Con (...or was that the Dallas Fantasy Fair? I sometimes get the cons confused) has just moved to Wondercon, because the Dallas Con went belly up.
The location isn't really important. We don't really know if the awards themselves are going to be any real big deal yet, but if they thought of it first and are willing to put it on when Confurence never even bothered to give it a thought, then more power to them.

>3. Location,
>
>2. Location,
>
>1. LOCATION: Okay, so you want to run a convention with a national
>scope (as AAC is being marketed). What is your TOP, #1, above all
>else priority in location? Is it ... to be where most of the con
>staff live? *bzzzzt* Sorry, WRONG answer, thank you for playing our
>game. Your top priority in deciding where to hold the con is to make
>it easily accessible to as many people as possible, and these days,
>that means locating it near a MAJOR airport. And Albany does not
>qualify.
> It only adds insult to injury that they claim on the official
>web page that they "didn't just choose Albany because most of the con
>staff live there." Right. Any of you who believe that, email me.
>I've got some great land in Florida to sell you. I'm sure Albany is a
>lovely city. There are hundreds of cities in the United States that
>have airports, and I could go to any one of them and take some nice
>photos and fill a web page with nice things about it (except for
>Trenton, NJ). That does NOT make them good sites for a convention.
> To illustrate: a friend of mine ran price comparisons for airline
>fares from several random U.S. cities around the country to L.A. and
>to Albany for the same weekend on different airlines. He found that
>the fares to Albany were consistently higher, by $100-$250. And some
>cities couldn't even reach Albany as a destination. (And yes,
>Cleveland is a fairly major airport. It's a hub for Continental now.)

Again, I don't think it's a major quibble. So most of the con committee lives there. I don't see that as a problem. I don't think that -any- furry con is big enough yet to justify the expenses of hiring a full-time committee staff out-of-state to work year-round on organizing and setting up the convention, as is done by the major conventions. At least this way, being in the same city, they're able to put their spare time into the proper preparations, and can deal with the local hotel establishment first-hand. And this -is- a first year con; I'm quite willing to allow them a good deal of slack in getting started.
If you really want a con in a different location, help to get one started in what you think is a prime spot. But the simple truth is that no matter -where- a convention winds up being held, it's -not- going to please everybody.


Brent Eric Edwards

unread,
Feb 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/17/97
to

Dear folks,
I'm currently working with Roger "Aloyen" Wilber, to write an
official and long response to Malin's carefully thought-out letter.

As Malin has put in much research time and effort into his
letter, I want to give as much time and care into the response
as his well-thought out message deserves.

I'll post it this evening, after I've met with the convention
head.

In the meantime, I politely request that you don't flame Malin
for expressing his viewpoint, or to claim that you're speaking for
the convention. As he has stuck with the facts as he sees them, I
will endeavor to give him back the facts about the convention.

-- Brent Edwards


--
The Albany project was our last, best hope for a perfect convention.
That failed. But in the year of the Flame War, it became something
greater. It became our last, best hope... for a better furfandom!
The year is 1997. The place: Albany AnthroCon. "http://www.wizvax.net/aac/"

Brent Eric Edwards

unread,
Feb 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/17/97
to Alexacoon

In article <19970217142...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, alex...@aol.com (Alexacoon) writes:
> I hope to meet enough friendly Furries to encourage my venturing out to a
> more distant Con in the future. As I asked before somewhere around ALF
> would you or someone reading this reply be kind enough to post a schedule
> of some kind?
>
> Thank you in advance. I will now scurry back off to work. Alexacoon

I only have a very vague, tentative schedule available, Alexacoon,
so I'm afraid to post it to this newsgroup before things are finalized.

When things stop shifting around in the schedule, we'll be posting it
to our Web site and to here.

-- Brent

Glen Wooten

unread,
Feb 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/18/97
to

Mitchell Marmel (marm...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu) wrote:
: In article <jaguar1E...@netcom.com>,
: Glen Wooten <jag...@netcom.com> wrote:

: >No, of course not. I was merely pointing out that they live in the

: >backyard of some major convention areas / travel hubs... If they lived
: >WAY out of the "mainstream" areas for ease of access, it would be a
: >different story...

: Ah. Gotcha. So, by your reasoning, Albany should simply forget it or
: relocate 'cause they're not in a major convention area/travel hub?

Well, since I never said that at all, I can't take credit for that line of
reasoning. BUT, it WILL be more expensive to have an equivalent affair in
Albany (because there is almost no competition), and because Albany is
rather far off the beaten track, is harder to get to via air, rail OR road
(hence it will be more expensive to get there...) As a location for a
regional convention, or a national gathering (that your company is picking
up the tab on), Albany would be fine. But as a location trying to get
people who are generally on a budget, well, there are many more
cost-effective locations. I'm just pointing out an easily obtainable
fact of the matter, that's all. There's no need to have it kill the
convention, but having the convention at a more accessable location would
probably help things...

: >Actually, I don't have too much of a problem with the whole MD series.

: >They have a much better track record than the DC series does...

: Ummmm...you DO know that an MD-80 IS a DC-8, and an MD-90 is a DC-9,
: don't you? Exact same airplane, just a different designation. And the
: MD-11 is a slightly worked over DC-10 (nice planes, DC-10s; one of the
: more comfortable cross-country flyers).

Yes, but the MD series have had a MUCH better safety record than the
DC-8, 9, or 10 series. Whether they were made better by McDonnel
Douglas or whatever, the MD series falls apart much less...

: >: But DOES the DC-7 eat its young? ;)


: >
: >There are scarier looking airliners...

: Ectually, I've never SEEN a DC-7. IIRC, it was a short-lived prop job
: which got the boot when Boeing put out the 707.

That is true. I'd still like to see the Super Constellation flying,
though...

: >From what I can gather, the BIG carrier into Albany is USAir (a horror in
: >their own right...)

: > You might see if they have a "convention desk"...

: It's a thought...

It might cut the very high ticket price down some...

: >You'd rather go to Branson, Missourri?

: I've LIVED in Cleveland. Never seen Branson. Might make a nice change
: of pace for a visit... :)

Only if you want Las Vegas as designed by Ned Flanders...

Mitchell Marmel

unread,
Feb 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/18/97
to

In article <jaguar1E...@netcom.com>,
Glen Wooten <jag...@netcom.com> wrote:

>: Ah. Gotcha. So, by your reasoning, Albany should simply forget it or
>: relocate 'cause they're not in a major convention area/travel hub?
>
>Well, since I never said that at all, I can't take credit for that line of
>reasoning. BUT, it WILL be more expensive to have an equivalent affair in
>Albany (because there is almost no competition), and because Albany is
>rather far off the beaten track, is harder to get to via air, rail OR road
>(hence it will be more expensive to get there...)

By air, perhaps, but road and rail are no problem; Albany is on the
NYC-Montreal axis.

>As a location for a
>regional convention, or a national gathering (that your company is picking
>up the tab on), Albany would be fine. But as a location trying to get
>people who are generally on a budget, well, there are many more
>cost-effective locations.

(nod-nods) Like Newark, for example. (evil grin)

>I'm just pointing out an easily obtainable
>fact of the matter, that's all. There's no need to have it kill the
>convention, but having the convention at a more accessable location would
>probably help things...

Probably. However, I haven't heard anybody SPECIFICALLY state that AAC's
location was a prime decision factor against their attending; I think
it'll work out.

>: MD-11 is a slightly worked over DC-10 (nice planes, DC-10s; one of the
>: more comfortable cross-country flyers).
>
>Yes, but the MD series have had a MUCH better safety record than the
>DC-8, 9, or 10 series. Whether they were made better by McDonnel
>Douglas or whatever, the MD series falls apart much less...

No, no, no. You misunderstand. They took an actual DC-9, tore off the
old registration plate, riveted a new one with the same info but a model
number that said "MD-90" or whatever on it, and passed it off as an entirely
different model. It's like renaming a 1985 Plymouth a 1985 Dodge...

>That is true. I'd still like to see the Super Constellation flying,
>though...

You and me both. (sigh) Lovely birds, the Connies; my uncle flew one for
El Al for "Operation Magic Carpet" after WWII. We have one made into a
restaurant on US Rt. 1 in Langhorne (north of Phila); I'll have to see
about eating there someday...

>: It's a thought...
>
>It might cut the very high ticket price down some...

I've already started noodging The Powers That Be. :)

>: I've LIVED in Cleveland. Never seen Branson. Might make a nice change
>: of pace for a visit... :)
>
>Only if you want Las Vegas as designed by Ned Flanders...

To quote Skippy Squirrel, "Spewwww!"

Elisabeth B. Shaw

unread,
Feb 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/18/97
to

In article <jaguar1E...@netcom.com>, jag...@netcom.com (Glen Wooten) wrote:

>: (nod-nods) Has to do with the relative crowding of the DC-Boston axis.
>: Folks are used to not having to go more than a (relatively) few miles to
>: get anywhere. After I came back to Philadelphia after living near LAX
>: for a couple of years, it took awhile to get reused to the "60 miles is a
>: considerable journey in these parts!" mentality... :)

Where I am, it's "oh, my gods, it's ACROSS THE RIVER! I don't want to cross
the bridge!" I had to do it every single day commuting across the (muddy
Mississloppy) river to go to class.

>When I lived in Winston, more than 5 miles to something was "a long
>way". When I moved to Charlotte, it turned to 15. In San Diego, more
>like 30. In the LA area, try 45 or so...

>: >Well, CF doesn't NEED to be held in El Segundo (the area RIGHT by LAX),

>: >because the whole LA basin is covered by LAX-SNA-ONT-BUR, so airport
>: >access to anywhere in the area is assured. Cleveland is a major highway
>: >hub, and is a hub for Continental, so cheap airfares are assured.
>

>: Which is nice for MFC, I suppose. OTOH, try catching a train to
>: Independence, OH or Buena Vista, CA sometime. :)

Ever tried getting flights in/out of MSY? We're in the middle of nowhere.

>Note I didn't say ANYTHING about Amtrak... WHEREVER it goes...
>

>: >The fact that Mark & Trish live near these areas is just a
>: >coincidence... If Trish lived in Akron, or Mark lived in Twenty Nine

>: >Palms, that would be different...

or I lived in Baton Rouge. Not to put down anyone from Baton Rouge who might
be reading this. I used to do a 3 hour commute home from Lafayette (USL:
Geaux Cajuns!) every other weekend when I wasn't doing my radio show.


>: I refer to the MD-80 as the AD(Ass Deadening)-80, myself, so your point
>: is taken.

>There are scarier looking airliners...

Like Aeroflot and C-130s?


>From what I can gather, the BIG carrier into Albany is USAir (a horror in
>their own right...) You might see if they have a "convention desk"...
>

>: >: And, oh, say, Newark and Cleveland are simply SWINGING convention towns,


> too?
>: >
>: >Actually, scary as it might seem, Cleveland gets a LOT of convention
>: >business. They are geared for it...
>

>: Brrrrr. :)


>
>You'd rather go to Branson, Missourri?

Ick. The only place worse than Branson is Rolla, unless you're a geologist.
The major social centre in Rolla is the local mega Wal-Mart. You want to go
shopping? St. Louis is two hours away.

What's the best thing about Rolla? St. Louis is two hours away.
What's the worst thing about Rolla? St. Louis is two hours away.

Aki.
(who has a friend who taught for 6 years at UMR. The best thing about Rolla
is UMR-Stonehenge. Oh...and did I mention St. Louis is two hours away?)


Ratman

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Feb 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/18/97
to

Amara <am...@snowmeow.com> wrote:

><snip>
>
>All together, one two three.. "Spoil Sport!" :)
>
>Nyah!
>
>Amara- Who's going to AAC because it sounds friendly and fun and stuff :)
>(if she can get there)

See you there!!
I can't wait. I wish the con were tomorrow. Well, maybe not, but I
wish July would hurry up and get here!


Tim Susman

unread,
Feb 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/18/97
to Brent Eric Edwards

On Tue, 18 Feb 1997, Brent Eric Edwards wrote:

> Thank you for letting me clarify facts -- and to admit faults --
> about Albany AnthroCon. I hope that you don't mind my grouping and
> shortening your complaints, and responding to the group as a whole.

Not at all. Thank *you* for your well-worded and considered reply. For
brevity's sake I have shortened or erased most of my original comments.

> > 8. Timing

> Last year, the Chicago Comicon was not over the July 4th weekend.
> (They admit this in their Web site: see 'http://www.xnet.com/~nford/
> comicon.html', the official site for the ComiCon.) The only direct
> competition that we expected was WesterCon, a major west-coast
> convention. I apologize that we weren't prescient... but we had been
> advertising this event as the July 4th weekend, well before Chicago
> Comicon had announced its date.

I can see how this misunderstanding took place, but the Chicago Comicon
web site also states that this year they are "back to our normal date."
In '96 they moved the con because San Diego Comicon was on July 4th
weekend (another con you wouldn't want to schedule a furry con opposite)
because of the political convention. As I understand it from people who
are more aware of the comics industry than I am, the Chicago Comicon is
usually the weekend of July 4th.

> If we're competing with MoreFurCon, we're doing a very bad job of it.
>
> 1. Being four months away from MoreFurCon, we give people time to
> recoup their money.
> 2. Being five hundred miles away from MoreFurCon, we will attract a
> significantly different set of 'locals.'
> 3. I'm one of the convention directors at Albany AnthroCon, yet I
> ran a well-advertised panel at Confurence East '96. If you look
> through DejaNews, I also gave a good review of the convention.

These are all good points. I probably neglected to stress this in my
original post, but I don't object to the placement of AAC per se, just to
its marketing as a national convention. If this was going to be just a
small gathering for New England/northeast furries, then hey, great. But
the fact is that the perception of everyone I've talked to about AAC is
that it's competing for a share of the "national furry scene," if you'll
forgive that phrasing. In that, it is competing in a very real sense with
MFC and CF, because fewer furries will be able to travel to three national
conventions in a year than can travel to one.

(And Duckon is just a month before AAC -- yes, it "only" has a furry
track, but last year it had furry guests from the West Coast, a furry
artist's room, a furry video room, and ... furry panels. And the furry
track alone drew hundreds of people.)

As far as local furries go: Later in the message, you mention the New
England, New Jersey, and Toronto groups of furries as being within driving
distance of Albany, and therefore groups that would benefit from your
convention. I think Toronto is actually closer to Cleveland than to
Albany. New Jersey is closer to Albany, but south Jersey/Philly is about
five hours drive from there, and only about a seven hour drive from
Cleveland (I've never driven to Albany, but I'm guessing at the distance
from NYC to Albany being about a 3 hour drive). So there will be more
overlap between AAC and MFC than if there were a random distribution of
furries.

> However, I ask that you consider each convention separately, rather
> than go to one in protest of the others. MoreFurCon is not Confurence
> is not Albany AnthroCon. We each have different directors, different
> directions, and different visions.

Another good point; however, all three conventions are aimed at the same
"market" -- furry fans. Economic reality dictates that for many people
(especially students), a trip to one convention means giving up a trip to
another.

[Panels]
> Yes, I wrote that letter. Albany AnthroCon is not Confurence. To
> answer your question, Albany AnthroCon is planning for sixty panels
> during the day.

Each day? Or through the whole con? Just for comparison, Philcon over
the course of three days runs less than 100 panels (this is just from my
recollection; I don't have actual figures here, but if it's not less than
100, it's not much more) and they have a membership in the thousands.

> Anyone who wishes, e-mail me, and I'll send you an incomplete list of
> panels that we're holding so far. We have plans for more than four
> writing panels. Probably, a LOT more. When my part of the schedule is
> ready, I'll post it here.

I think this is quite ambitious, and wish you all the best in it. My
experience at furry cons has been that people go to see other people, not
to go to panels.

> (For those who don't know, the art show director is Tygger Graf.)
>
> Tygger wishes to add that she and Tim are speaking in email and are
> discussing his points reasonably.

I don't want to pursue this point any further, as I never intended it to
be a personal attack on Tygger. I made this clear to her (I hope) in my
email, and I want to state it publicly as well. Unfortunately, that's
what it has in some cases been construed as, and that's how it's being
defended, so rather than cause her any more grief, I'll just drop it.

[Location debate; forgive my cut and paste]

> Albany International Airport is not a hub city, but it is in expansion
> to become the largest airport for two hours around.

The airport in Duluth, MN is the largest airport for two hours around.
It's still not a major airport.

> We are within driving distance of the New England furries (who have
> organized their own furry mailing list, and have get-togethers), of
> the New Jersey furries (who are part of the DC furry mailing list and
> take part in their get-togethers), and of the Toronto furries (who have
> organized their own mailing list and just had their first get-together).

Excellent arguments for a local convention; I made my point about the
national scale above.

> As Trish Ny -- and anyone who went to Confurence East I -- can tell
> you, running a convention from a place far from where you live is
> very difficult. Our organizers didn't want to go through those hassles.

[...]

> However, I will admit that the Web page is inaccurate. Most of the
> con staff doesn't live near Albany.

Okay, these two statements are a little confusing -- I can understand
not wanting to go through the hassle of holding a convention far from
where you live, but then why do most of your staff not live near the
convention?

I've been to a convention in Tarrytown, NY, which is north of NYC and
probably not more than a couple hours from Albany, yet much more
accessible to Newark Int'l, Kennedy, La Guardia, etc. Would it be too
difficult to plan a convention there? Having run a LRPG convention (once)
in Washington DC while I was living in Philadelphia, I know it's a hassle.
We located our con in DC because that's where the base of people we wanted
to attract was. We had one staff member in DC, and the rest in the Philly
area, and the DC person was just in charge of the hotel arrangements.

> Because of the Internet, and because of our desire
> to get the best people that we can for our convention, we became
> national.

At the risk of beating a very dead point into the ground, Albany is a
fine location for a northeast-local furry con. It is an inconvenient
location for a national furry con. CF started as a small local California
con. MFC started as a small eastern con based off Philcon. Duckon's
furry track started small with a couple furries organizing small events.
There's no stigma in starting small and getting bigger.

> > 10. The Moreau Awards

[leaving out the first point of the awards themselves, which doesn't seem
to require a lot more discussion]

> I disagree vehemently with your second point (number 4). For one, I
> am not a member of the convention staff of Confurence, so I have no
> right to say what they should or should not provide at their
> convention. For two, I disagree that the awards should necessarily be
> at Confurence. By the same logic that you give, if any smaller
> software company comes up with a neat idea, they should immediately go
> to the largest software company that exists and offer to develop it
> for them.

Aah. I must apologize; I did not make my point clear enough. I'll try
to state it better: The Moreau Awards, as publicized, are intended to
represent the opinions of the fandom about the people who contribute
creatively to it. Therefore, their significance and validity are
*directly* related to the proportion of the fandom that participates in
the voting. As it stands, only members in attendance at AAC will be
allowed to vote. The point I was attempting to make was that the largest
gathering of furry fans is currently at ConFurence, and that awards voted
on there would be the most representative of the views and preferences of
the fandom in general. Clearer?

As for your first point (sorry for going backwards), while you can't
"tell" CF what to do, you could easily have organized the awards and
offered to hold them at CF. As the con grows bigger, they are becoming
more open to letting other people run events under the aegis of the con.

But here's another suggestion, free of charge. Distribute the Moreau
ballots in the In-Fur-Nation, in your own newsletter (if you have one),
and in MFC's newsletter (if they have one). Allow anyone who had a
membership at any one of the three cons to vote. Then (if you want), you
can *present* the awards at your convention. That would pretty much
eliminate all my objections as regards the placement of the awards. Yes,
it would be more work, but it would give the Moreaus more an air of a
legitimate award and less an air of a gimmick.

> In summary, Albany AnthroCon is dedicated to the bettering of the
> fandom. We show this dedication, by being willing to put on many
> panels about many different topics, and by running furry fandom's only
> general awards ceremony.
>
> We are a conscious effort to bring back people who have slipped from
> the fandom because they worry about the fandom's image. We're already
> successful. Tygger Graf and D.A.C. Crowley had left the fandom; not
> only have they returned, but they're working for us.

Um.. these are interesting points. I have actually participated in
discussions about fandom's image with various different groups of people.
I'm working just on memory here, but I don't recall that in any of the
discussions, anyone said, "Well, you know ... I'd feel a lot better about
going to ConFurence if there were more panels there." Or "Furry would be
a lot more respected if they only had an awards ceremony." Maybe I've
been talking to the wrong people. Obviously, the people you've been
talking to feel there is a need for more panels and for legitimate awards;
if so, they'll enjoy your convention a lot.

> For the betterment of the fandom, could I ask you to consider joining
> us?

Heh. While I appreciate the offer, (a) I don't think my presence could
affect the problems I raised any more than I already have; (b) I don't
have $500 to fly out there; (c) I have a feeling I'm probably 'vulpes non
grata' with the con staff right now.

The one thing I would like to add, in fairness to AAC, is that I
appreciate the excellent attitude of their con staff, in responding
open-mindedly, constructively, and politely to criticism. In that, at
least, they are succeeding in their goal of 'bettering the fandom.'

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Tim Susman | tsu...@biosci.cbs.umn.edu | furr...@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu |
Urban Fox Homepage: http://drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu/~furrball/urbanfox.html

"If a lion could talk, we would not understand it." - Wittgenstein
*** Fight for free speech on the Internet! http://www.vtw.org/speech ***

Glen Wooten

unread,
Feb 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/18/97
to

Mitchell Marmel (marm...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu) wrote:
: In article <jaguar1E...@netcom.com>,
: Glen Wooten <jag...@netcom.com> wrote:

: >: Ah. Gotcha. So, by your reasoning, Albany should simply forget it or
: >: relocate 'cause they're not in a major convention area/travel hub?
: >
: >Well, since I never said that at all, I can't take credit for that line of
: >reasoning. BUT, it WILL be more expensive to have an equivalent affair in
: >Albany (because there is almost no competition), and because Albany is
: >rather far off the beaten track, is harder to get to via air, rail OR road
: >(hence it will be more expensive to get there...)

: By air, perhaps, but road and rail are no problem; Albany is on the
: NYC-Montreal axis.

Yes, Albany is on the way to Montreal, but it's a pretty far drive north
for most folks. 3 of the four ways in from the south are those horrible
toll roads (a squeeze from the past...) I'm not arguing that there isn't
access by road...

And I'm following the people who have used the rail service in that
corridor for the "getting there by rail is NOT half the fun!" Amtrak
service is fairly poor these days...

: >As a location for a
: >regional convention, or a national gathering (that your company is picking
: >up the tab on), Albany would be fine. But as a location trying to get


: >people who are generally on a budget, well, there are many more
: >cost-effective locations.

: (nod-nods) Like Newark, for example. (evil grin)

Well, Newark WAS cost-effective. A blight on the universe, maybe. But
then there's always Scranton...

: >: MD-11 is a slightly worked over DC-10 (nice planes, DC-10s; one of the

: >: more comfortable cross-country flyers).
: >
: >Yes, but the MD series have had a MUCH better safety record than the
: >DC-8, 9, or 10 series. Whether they were made better by McDonnel
: >Douglas or whatever, the MD series falls apart much less...

: No, no, no. You misunderstand. They took an actual DC-9, tore off the
: old registration plate, riveted a new one with the same info but a model
: number that said "MD-90" or whatever on it, and passed it off as an entirely
: different model. It's like renaming a 1985 Plymouth a 1985 Dodge...

Well, they stopped making the DC series some years ago, while the MD
production lines were still in operation as of 1 year ago (since GenDyn
was supplying new fuselages for them...) They may be using the same
designs, but there are NEW MD's out there...

: >That is true. I'd still like to see the Super Constellation flying,
: >though...

: You and me both. (sigh) Lovely birds, the Connies; my uncle flew one for
: El Al for "Operation Magic Carpet" after WWII. We have one made into a
: restaurant on US Rt. 1 in Langhorne (north of Phila); I'll have to see
: about eating there someday...

Or old Boeing Stratocruisers...

D. A. Graf

unread,
Feb 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/18/97
to

Tim Susman <tsu...@biosci.cbs.umn.edu> wrote:


: > (For those who don't know, the art show director is Tygger Graf.)


: >
: > Tygger wishes to add that she and Tim are speaking in email and are
: > discussing his points reasonably.

: I don't want to pursue this point any further, as I never intended it to
: be a personal attack on Tygger. I made this clear to her (I hope) in my
: email, and I want to state it publicly as well. Unfortunately, that's
: what it has in some cases been construed as, and that's how it's being
: defended, so rather than cause her any more grief, I'll just drop it.


Just to pop in here and give some more clarification. I didn't take it as
a personal attack. It read to me as though someone had the general idea
but was misunderstanding points about my reasons and views on the anthro
fandom and fans. I sent him a letter privately regarding them, leaving
the rest of the points he raised about AAC to be handled by Brent and
Roger (Chip and Aloyen), and giving Brent one less knot to worry about.

Tim, I have the email. I'm slowly plowing through my pile and will get to
it tonight. Don't worry, I'm not angry. :) And again, I'd like to thank
you for listening.

As I told the staff of AAC, I'm not worried. :)


--Tygger L. Graf
Artshow Director, AAC


--
******************************************************************************
gr...@primenet.com

www.av.qnet.com/~canuss/tygger www.av.qnet.com/~canuss/tygger/gk.htm
******************************************************************************
"Hey, I'm just an ex-Guard with a bad attitude...."

Random quote from Saraenae Kohiino, Guardian Knights

Stripey! <Thomas Pluck>

unread,
Feb 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/18/97
to

Personally my only gripes are the "do panels for dollars" and "moreau
awards" things. I was approached to work some panels in trade for the
$15 registration fee. I can't imagine how they're going to fill 5 1-hour
or 1/2-hour panels with different discussions of furry writing. Even
ConFurence overdoes it with all the panels...

As for the moreau awards, I think it's a slightly arrogant gimmick to
announce the creation of these awards for the con's first year, and not
accept mail-in votes. A first year is going to be smaller than normal, and
a con off in a backwater where the nearest airport isn't a major hub is
going to lessen attendance further. It's kind of like holding the Hugos at
some con in Guam.

On a final note, I don't have a problem with folks who live in a remote
area starting their own furry con. I think it's kind of presumptious to
have "fandom-wide awards" the first year, but it's just as annoying that
ConFurence is held so close to the holidays-- and people seem to have
gotten used to that.

As for all the comparisons where the AAC/MFC competition is likened to
the MFC/Philcon split-- Philcon wasn't a relatively new, all-furry con. It
was the oldest SF con, that furries happened to go to and gather at.
MoreFurCon doesn't threaten Philcon at all, but holding AAC within a month
of MFC is more of an "attack," shall we say. They're both all-furry
eastern based cons.


Kay Shapero

unread,
Feb 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/18/97
to

On <Feb 17 08:39>, marm...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Mitchell Marmel) wrote;

Congrats, Mitch - the con's not even started yet and you're already getting
yelled at. Sounds like Albany Anthrocon's well on its way... :->

BTW - I think the Moreau's are a great idea; the suggestion that more
attention be paid to individual works is also a good idea. My guess is
these will evolve over the years, much as the Hugos have.

>I can't think of another reason to have *another* east coast convention.


m>Um...because Cleveland isn't the east coast, except perhaps in
m>relation to Hawaii? ;)

And even if it were... I can just imagine the horselaugh you'd get out here
for suggesting that since there was a SF convention in Los Angeles, you
shouldn't have one in San Francisco. Now the two major filkcons (ConChord
and ConSonance) in the two regions alterate years these days, but filk
conventions tend to be a lot smaller than the furry ones. I'd say even if
MorFurCon WERE on the East Coast this fandom has enough room to have more
than one convention in the same coast.

>This whole branching out of
>conventions is something I find really annoying -- it's going to
>result in a regionalization of the fandom, with a bunch of local
>conventions and no single convention where *everyone* goes.

m>Which means that more furs get a shot at meeting fellow furs and
m>having fun. Why is this bad?

Be it also noted that the various local SF cons haven't exactly done
horrors to the regionals, or even Worldcon. The latter has gotten just too
plain BIG for my pocket, even when held nearby, but that's not due to loss
to other conventions; quite the opposite!

m>Probably, yes. Say, wanna know an interesting bit of history?
m>WorldCon (and the Hugos) started out as strictly an NYC area event, done
m>because the New Yorkers wanted their own alternative to Philcon.

<grin> So spawning new conventions elsewhere is an old and honored Philcon
tradition? Cool!

>repository for the awards for the best in furry fandom. Well, if they
>were doing this because they wanted to recognize the best contributors
>to the fandom, they'd organize the awards to have it at CF.
>Having it at AAC in its first year makes it a cheap marketing shtick to
>drag people to their convention.

[the above wasn't your quote, it was Mr. Susman's but I may as well add my
own two cents here.]

Nope, it just means that the people running AAC are the ones who thought it
up. It makes a lot more sense to try and organize awards for a convention
you're running than it does for someone else's.

M. Mitchell Marmel

unread,
Feb 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/18/97
to

Kay Shapero wrote:

> Congrats, Mitch - the con's not even started yet and you're already getting
> yelled at. Sounds like Albany Anthrocon's well on its way... :->

(chuckle) Indeed. What I find especially encouraging is that most of
the responses are pro-AAC...

> BTW - I think the Moreau's are a great idea; the suggestion that more
> attention be paid to individual works is also a good idea. My guess is
> these will evolve over the years, much as the Hugos have.

Yeah, that's a pretty good guess.

> m>Um...because Cleveland isn't the east coast, except perhaps in
> m>relation to Hawaii? ;)
>
> And even if it were... I can just imagine the horselaugh you'd get out here
> for suggesting that since there was a SF convention in Los Angeles, you
> shouldn't have one in San Francisco.

Indeed. Of course, location isn't the only concern; the personnel
involved play a major role in a con's success as well.

> Now the two major filkcons (ConChord
> and ConSonance) in the two regions alterate years these days, but filk
> conventions tend to be a lot smaller than the furry ones.

Gotta get to a filk con one of these years. Isn't there one due for NJ
sometime soon?

> I'd say even if
> MorFurCon WERE on the East Coast this fandom has enough room to have more
> than one convention in the same coast.

H'm! Think that there might be a SF area furcon someday, then?

> Be it also noted that the various local SF cons haven't exactly done
> horrors to the regionals, or even Worldcon. The latter has gotten just too
> plain BIG for my pocket, even when held nearby, but that's not due to loss
> to other conventions; quite the opposite!

Plug Department: If you're going to BucConNeer in Baltimore in '98,
don't forget to vote for Philadelphia in 2001, so we can have the
Millenium Philcon...

> <grin> So spawning new conventions elsewhere is an old and honored Philcon
> tradition? Cool!

(chuckle) Seems to be, yes. :)

> [the above wasn't your quote, it was Mr. Susman's but I may as well add my
> own two cents here.]

Gotcha.

> Nope, it just means that the people running AAC are the ones who thought it
> up. It makes a lot more sense to try and organize awards for a convention
> you're running than it does for someone else's.

Prezactly. Although I do think making the balloting accessable for
future CFs and MFCs does make a lot of sense...

-MMM-

--
Dealer's Room Director, AAC-1
HTTP://www.wizvax.net/aloyen/AAC97/

(Please cc: any replies via E-mail; my news server is flakier than a
dandruff convention. I will post my replies to your E-mail directly
to the group, unless you indicate otherwise. Thanks!)

rune....@worldnet.att.net

unread,
Feb 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/18/97
to

Stripey! <Thomas Pluck> wrote:
>
> As for all the comparisons where the AAC/MFC competition is likened to
> the MFC/Philcon split-- Philcon wasn't a relatively new, all-furry con. It
> was the oldest SF con, that furries happened to go to and gather at.
> MoreFurCon doesn't threaten Philcon at all, but holding AAC within a month
> of MFC is more of an "attack," shall we say. They're both all-furry
> eastern based cons.
>

Did Morefurcon move? Last I looked it was the second weekend in November.

Jason J. Jensen

unread,
Feb 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/18/97
to

Not to get too much into this little rowe, but I thought I'd make just a
couple points.

First off, if a convention wants to hold an event -- *any* event -- then
it has every right in the world to do so as long as it's legal. There
is no requirement that I'm aware of where they have to defer to a larger
convention of that genre simply because it might be "more appropriate"
there. This goes beyond the fact that it makes entirely no sense for
AAC to attempt organizing one of their events at another convention
across the country. The Moreau Awards, despite any potential flaws, is
basically a good idea who's time perhaps has come in my opinion. Why
not give a few people some recognition if it makes for a good time?

Secondly, it is a fact that a number of people, given the date and
location of AAC, will not be able to attend. This is perfectly fine.
But to go out of one's way to point this out within the context of a
number of reasons for everyone not to go simply reeks of something a bit
more sinister than offering complaints against how AAC is being
organized.

If you don't want to go, then don't go. But PLEASE, if you would be so
kind, let the rest of us decide on our own whether or not it's worth
going by our own scales.

--Jay

Brent Eric Edwards

unread,
Feb 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/18/97
to tsu...@biosci.cbs.umn.edu

By the way, this note does speak for Albany Anthrocon '97.

Dear Malin,


Thank you for letting me clarify facts -- and to admit faults --
about Albany AnthroCon. I hope that you don't mind my grouping and
shortening your complaints, and responding to the group as a whole.

> 8. Timing, part I: It's scheduled the same weekend as Chicago Comicon,


> one of only two major comic conventions in the country (and the other
> is in San Diego, much less accessible to the east coast -- and,
> incidentally, less than a month later).
>
> 7. Timing, part II: It's July 4th weekend! It's the major holiday
> weekend of the summer.

I've been working with the Albany AnthroCon crew for eleven months.
In order to guarantee our time and space with the hotel, we made the
contract in >March 1996<. At the time, the July 4th weekend was perfect.
Being a holiday weekend, people would be off-work, and would be able
to come to our event.

Last year, the Chicago Comicon was not over the July 4th weekend.
(They admit this in their Web site: see 'http://www.xnet.com/~nford/
comicon.html', the official site for the ComiCon.) The only direct
competition that we expected was WesterCon, a major west-coast
convention. I apologize that we weren't prescient... but we had been
advertising this event as the July 4th weekend, well before Chicago
Comicon had announced its date.

[As a teaser, we are hard at work on Albany AnthroCon '98; we already
have our guests of honor, and we should be working out the weekend
soon. Yes, we need to work on it this early. No, it won't be the
July 4th weekend. No, we won't announce the Guests of Honor until
Sunday of our convention.]


> 6. Being in the eastern region, AAC is obviously competing with
> MoreFurCon, and rumor has it that it was started because people
> weren't happy with how CFE was run.

> [snip]
> ...


> I'm starting to think I should go to MoreFurCon just as a sort of
> protest vote.

If we're competing with MoreFurCon, we're doing a very bad job of it.

1. Being four months away from MoreFurCon, we give people time to
recoup their money.
2. Being five hundred miles away from MoreFurCon, we will attract a
significantly different set of 'locals.'
3. I'm one of the convention directors at Albany AnthroCon, yet I
ran a well-advertised panel at Confurence East '96. If you look
through DejaNews, I also gave a good review of the convention.

Trish Ny has a solid record of running furry conventions; with
FurtastiCon and both Confurence Easts behind her, many furries know
what to expect from her conventions.

However, I ask that you consider each convention separately, rather
than go to one in protest of the others. MoreFurCon is not Confurence
is not Albany AnthroCon. We each have different directors, different
directions, and different visions.

> 5. I (and many others) was notified that I could get my membership
> paid for if I sat on panels for the con! Reading further down the
> message, I found that I'd have to participate in FIVE panels to get
> the $15 membership back.

> ...


> So either AAC is planning a ridiculous number of panels, to be
> attended by less than one percent of the membership, or there would
> really be no way for me to earn back my membership fee. Either way,
> it's not making me want to attend the con.

Yes, I wrote that letter. Albany AnthroCon is not Confurence. To


answer your question, Albany AnthroCon is planning for sixty panels

during the day. We have at least three people, Eden Dorn, Jeff Jonas,
and myself, creating panels and recruiting panelists.

I am in charge of panels for artists and for writers, and I'm
creating thirty-six panels. A partial list of panelists (we're
still talking with a few more) who we'll have are Chris Berdoz,
Brent Edwards, Tygger Graf, Matthew Henry, Jason Jensen, Daphne
Lage, Watts Martin, Matthew J. McCullar, Chuck Melville, Karl
Meyers, Brian and Annette Miller, Dan Pakrantz, Ken Pict, Lance Rund,
and Elin Winkler.

Anyone who wishes, e-mail me, and I'll send you an incomplete list of
panels that we're holding so far. We have plans for more than four
writing panels. Probably, a LOT more. When my part of the schedule is
ready, I'll post it here.

> 9. Art Show: The art show director is a (former?) furry artist who has
> publicly stated in the past that she dislikes furry fandom and hates
> drawing for them.

(For those who don't know, the art show director is Tygger Graf.)

When I asked Roger "Aloyen" Wilber why he chose Tygger, he responded:

} I chose Tygger Graf for a number of reasons:
} 1) Our personalities mesh quite well.
} 2) I wanted an art director who was interested in the disassociated
} fans, those who felt they no longer fit into the "grand
} scheme of things" in furry fandom.
} 3) I required an art director who would understand what "keep the
} art show simple, legal and non-overly-adult (no NC section)
} meant and would run with the idea happily.
} 4) She passed the test of understanding the difference between
} established "furry" fandom (and the implied acceptances) and
} what I saw as a new and better "anthro" fandom.
} 5) Experience: She is an experienced artist; her hand-picked
} assistants are experienced art show directors.
} 6) She is well known and will be a draw unto herself.
} 7) After one week of having the job, she had proved herself beyond
} all doubt.
}
} THAT is why Tygger is out art director and will continue in that position as
} long as she agrees to hold it.

Also, Tygger's position on furry fandom has been clearly outlined in her
pinfo from Furrymuck:

} Heyas, folks. Due to many circumstances, I've backed out of being solely in
} Furry fandom and moved into the much larger area of Fantasy. HOWEVER, I
} have left the door to Furry open, not cutting off totally from fans and
} friends. I won't be going back into solely in Furry fandom, but I will
} still be doing anthro art along with the other facets of Fantasy out
} there, be it non-erotica or erotica. My heartfelt thanks to those who
} understand and support my decision.

Tygger wishes to add that she and Tim are speaking in email and are
discussing his points reasonably.

> 3. Location,
>
> 2. Location,
>
> 1. LOCATION: Okay, so you want to run a convention with a national
> scope (as AAC is being marketed). What is your TOP, #1, above all
> else priority in location? Is it ... to be where most of the con
> staff live? *bzzzzt* Sorry, WRONG answer, thank you for playing our
> game. Your top priority in deciding where to hold the con is to make
> it easily accessible to as many people as possible, and these days,
> that means locating it near a MAJOR airport. And Albany does not
> qualify.

> [snip]

As Trish Ny -- and anyone who went to Confurence East I -- can tell
you, running a convention from a place far from where you live is
very difficult. Our organizers didn't want to go through those hassles.

Albany International Airport is not a hub city, but it is in expansion
to become the largest airport for two hours around. (New York City
airports will still be bigger, of course.) Albany has had a strong
furry presence for a long while. We have two long-running furry/fannish
households; we have many colleges which have spawned many furries.


We are within driving distance of the New England furries (who have
organized their own furry mailing list, and have get-togethers), of
the New Jersey furries (who are part of the DC furry mailing list and
take part in their get-togethers), and of the Toronto furries (who have
organized their own mailing list and just had their first get-together).

However, I will admit that the Web page is inaccurate. Most of the
con staff doesn't live near Albany. Our directors live in Rhode
Island, in New Jersey, in Pennsylvania, in Washington D.C., in
California, as well as in New York. Our con staff comes from an even
wider variety of locations: from Texas to Illinois (mostly centering
in the Northeast). Because of the Internet, and because of our desire


to get the best people that we can for our convention, we became
national.

> 10. The Moreau Awards, part I: It's a nice idea to want to reward the
> best in Furry fandom, and setting it up like the Hugos makes sense,
> but where the Hugos reward individual works, the Moreau awards honor
> creators.

> [snip]


>
> 4. The Moreau Awards, part II: Okay, this is one thing that REALLY
> annoyed me. Given the shaky premise (see #10) that furry fandom is
> big enough to have these awards, where is the logical place to have
> them? The Hugos are voted on at WorldCon, the LARGEST SF convention
> of the year. Wouldn't the logical place to start this be CF?

> [snip]

Your first point (number 10) does have a point: furry fandom might
better be served by nominating individual works, rather than the body
of work that a writer or artist or publisher makes over a year, as
the Moreau Awards do now. It's far too late to change this for
the 1997 awards, but if you're interested in working with me, Malin,
e-mail me, and we can work on changing the awards for 1998.

I disagree vehemently with your second point (number 4). For one, I
am not a member of the convention staff of Confurence, so I have no
right to say what they should or should not provide at their
convention. For two, I disagree that the awards should necessarily be
at Confurence. By the same logic that you give, if any smaller
software company comes up with a neat idea, they should immediately go
to the largest software company that exists and offer to develop it
for them.

In summary, Albany AnthroCon is dedicated to the bettering of the
fandom. We show this dedication, by being willing to put on many
panels about many different topics, and by running furry fandom's only
general awards ceremony.

We are a conscious effort to bring back people who have slipped from
the fandom because they worry about the fandom's image. We're already
successful. Tygger Graf and D.A.C. Crowley had left the fandom; not
only have they returned, but they're working for us.

For the betterment of the fandom, could I ask you to consider joining
us?

-- Brent E. Edwards

Brent Eric Edwards

unread,
Feb 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/18/97
to Stripey! <Thomas Pluck>

In article <stripey....@winternet.com>, str...@winternet.com (Stripey! <Thomas Pluck>) writes:
> Personally my only gripes are the "do panels for dollars" and "moreau
> awards" things. I was approached to work some panels in trade for the
> $15 registration fee. I can't imagine how they're going to fill 5 1-hour
> or 1/2-hour panels with different discussions of furry writing. Even
> ConFurence overdoes it with all the panels...

If you don't like the panels, don't go. We'll have a dealers' room, an
artists' alley, an art show, as well as a good central courtyard where
people can meet.

> As for the moreau awards, I think it's a slightly arrogant gimmick to
> announce the creation of these awards for the con's first year, and not
> accept mail-in votes.

> [snip!]

I'll agree with you. Holding the Moreau Awards at Albany AnthroCon is arrogant
and presumptuous.

On the other hand, I like thinking big.

> As for all the comparisons where the AAC/MFC competition is likened to
> the MFC/Philcon split-- Philcon wasn't a relatively new, all-furry con. It
> was the oldest SF con, that furries happened to go to and gather at.
> MoreFurCon doesn't threaten Philcon at all, but holding AAC within a month
> of MFC is more of an "attack," shall we say. They're both all-furry
> eastern based cons.

May I make a slight correction? AAC is in July; MFC is in November.

-- Brent

Captain Packrat

unread,
Feb 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/19/97
to

Mitchell Marmel <marm...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> wrote in article
<5eaj18$i0d$1...@velar.isc-br.com>...

> In article <jaguar1E...@netcom.com>,
> Glen Wooten <jag...@netcom.com> wrote:
> >Actually, I don't have too much of a problem with the whole MD series.
> >They have a much better track record than the DC series does...
>
> Ummmm...you DO know that an MD-80 IS a DC-8, and an MD-90 is a DC-9,
> don't you? Exact same airplane, just a different designation. And the
> MD-11 is a slightly worked over DC-10 (nice planes, DC-10s; one of the
> more comfortable cross-country flyers).

Maybe he was referring to the early DC series, i.e., the DC-3, DC-3s,
DC-4, etc. :)


--
Captain Packrat (Captain on FurryMUCK)
Fur Central ---> http://www.sandiego.sisna.com/captpakrat/

Furry Code 1.2 (available from the above site)
FRM4 A++>+++ C>+ D++ H+++ M+++ P++++ R+ T++++ W Z+>+++
Sm+ RLTI a cn++ d- e+ f++++ h+ iwf+++ sm#

If you're furry and you know it, Hug the Mouse!

O. .O
==V==


Mitchell Marmel

unread,
Feb 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/19/97
to

In article <jaguar1E...@netcom.com>,
Glen Wooten <jag...@netcom.com> wrote:

>I happened to get my hands on a Jane's this afternoon, and it confirmed
>what I was saying before. Douglas Aircraft made the entire DC-series of
>aircraft, but that stopped when they were bought out (merged? It gets
>confusing who ate who in the industry...) and became McDonnel Douglas.

Incidentally, the Santa Monica airport has (or at least had, circa 1983 or
so) a very nice mini-museum dedicated to things Douglas, as well as a DC-2
in nice condition. I also did a quick Web search for the DC-7; as I
suspected, it was a four-engined tricycle geared transport. Apparently,
it was a stretched DC-6, and the photos clearly show its DC-3 ancestry.
The DC-7 came out in 1953, and was rendered obsolete by the Boeing 707 in
1958. This short-livedness probably prompted Ernie Kovacs' joke which
heads this thread. At least one DC-7 is still in firefighting service out
West.

>but they are NOT the same aircraft internally. Same basic airframe, but
>a whole different bird.

(sour grin) For starters, the seats are worse.

>The concept that "they took DC-9's off the line, tore off the 'DC-9'
>label, and slapped on an 'MD-80' label" just is incorrect. Besides, if
>they were doing that, why are there still DC-9's & DC-10's still flying?
>You could call them "younger siblings" or even "cousins", but not the
>same craft...

Last I checked, no airline uses the "DC" designation on their aircraft
anymore; following the infamous DC-10 crash, that got dumped like a hot
potato ("I ain't flyin' in one of them DC-10 deathtraps. What's that?
It's an MD-10? Oh, that's okay, then."). I certainly could be wrong,
though; my main source of info is the occasional foray into an airport
and the odd conversation or two with a travel agent...

-MMM-

--
Dealer's Room Director, AAC-1
HTTP://www.wizvax.net/aloyen/AAC97/

(Note: Please cc: any Usenet replies to
email, as my server is flakier than a properly-done piecrust.)
============================================================================


M. Mitchell Marmel \ Scattered, smothered, covered, chunked,
Drexel University \ whipped, beaten, chained and pierced.
Department of Materials Engineering \ *THE BEST HASHBROWNS IN THE WORLD!*
Fibrous Materials Research Laboratory\ marm...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu

Glen Wooten

unread,
Feb 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/19/97
to

Mitchell Marmel (marm...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu) wrote:
: In article <jaguar1E...@netcom.com>,
: Glen Wooten <jag...@netcom.com> wrote:

: >but they are NOT the same aircraft internally. Same basic airframe, but
: >a whole different bird.

: (sour grin) For starters, the seats are worse.

Well, you've got to blame the carrier for that one...

: >The concept that "they took DC-9's off the line, tore off the 'DC-9'

: >label, and slapped on an 'MD-80' label" just is incorrect. Besides, if
: >they were doing that, why are there still DC-9's & DC-10's still flying?
: >You could call them "younger siblings" or even "cousins", but not the
: >same craft...

: Last I checked, no airline uses the "DC" designation on their aircraft
: anymore; following the infamous DC-10 crash, that got dumped like a hot
: potato ("I ain't flyin' in one of them DC-10 deathtraps. What's that?
: It's an MD-10? Oh, that's okay, then."). I certainly could be wrong,
: though; my main source of info is the occasional foray into an airport
: and the odd conversation or two with a travel agent...

Actually, there are still some DC-9's still in service (as that was a
fairly good plane, although since there were only really 2 different
configurations, it was phased out by the much more transmutable MD-80
series...), but I don't see much at all in the way of DC-10's (although a
fair number of MD-11's...) Continental flys DC-9's still, as well as
United & Northwest (I believe...)

Douglas was always playing "catch-up" to Boeing after the war, up until
the time they became McDonnel Douglas. They just didn't get the punch in
first, so most of their designs were an attempt to copy something Boeing
put out a while back... The MD series is getting them back on a more
even footing, but they haven't come out with a new design in over 20
years, so I guess that Boeing will be THE manufacturer in the states for
now...

Glen Wooten

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Feb 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/19/97
to

Captain Packrat (captp...@isat.com) wrote:
: Mitchell Marmel <marm...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> wrote in article
: <5eaj18$i0d$1...@velar.isc-br.com>...

: > In article <jaguar1E...@netcom.com>,
: > Glen Wooten <jag...@netcom.com> wrote:
: > >Actually, I don't have too much of a problem with the whole MD series.
: > >They have a much better track record than the DC series does...
: >
: > Ummmm...you DO know that an MD-80 IS a DC-8, and an MD-90 is a DC-9,
: > don't you? Exact same airplane, just a different designation. And the
: > MD-11 is a slightly worked over DC-10 (nice planes, DC-10s; one of the
: > more comfortable cross-country flyers).

: Maybe he was referring to the early DC series, i.e., the DC-3, DC-3s,
: DC-4, etc. :)

<I think I may have answered this one in a letter, Instead of in public.
Sorry about that...>

I happened to get my hands on a Jane's this afternoon, and it confirmed
what I was saying before. Douglas Aircraft made the entire DC-series of
aircraft, but that stopped when they were bought out (merged? It gets
confusing who ate who in the industry...) and became McDonnel Douglas.

After that, there were no more DC-series, but the DC-9 & DC-10 were
re-engineered (with small to medium internal engineering changes, as well
as a new manufacturing method), while still keeping the same outward
appearance. So the DC-9 became the MD-80 (and now 90) family, while the
DC-10 became the MD-11. To the naked eye, the aircraft appear similar,

but they are NOT the same aircraft internally. Same basic airframe, but
a whole different bird.

The concept that "they took DC-9's off the line, tore off the 'DC-9'

label, and slapped on an 'MD-80' label" just is incorrect. Besides, if
they were doing that, why are there still DC-9's & DC-10's still flying?
You could call them "younger siblings" or even "cousins", but not the
same craft...

--

Glen Wooten

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Feb 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/19/97
to

Captain Packrat (captp...@isat.com) wrote:
: Mitchell Marmel <marm...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> wrote in article
: <5eaj18$i0d$1...@velar.isc-br.com>...
: > In article <jaguar1E...@netcom.com>,
: > Glen Wooten <jag...@netcom.com> wrote:
: > >Actually, I don't have too much of a problem with the whole MD series.
: > >They have a much better track record than the DC series does...
: >
: > Ummmm...you DO know that an MD-80 IS a DC-8, and an MD-90 is a DC-9,
: > don't you? Exact same airplane, just a different designation. And the
: > MD-11 is a slightly worked over DC-10 (nice planes, DC-10s; one of the
: > more comfortable cross-country flyers).

: Maybe he was referring to the early DC series, i.e., the DC-3, DC-3s,
: DC-4, etc. :)

No, I actually had the chance to look at a Jane's this afternoon, and I
was correct. The DC series was made by Douglas Aircraft, which was
bought out (or merged, it's a vague term these days...) and became
McDonnel Douglas. When the changover occured, no more DC series aircraft
were produced (although probably those still on the line were finished to
complete orders...) A redesign occured, using the templates of the DC-9
& DC-10, to create the MD series. Still the same basic design, different
construction.

The previous statement of "they just took a DC-9 off the line, tore off
the 'DC-9' label, and slapped an 'MD-80' label" just isn't correct. Small
to medium engineering changes internally, a different manufacturing
technique, but to the naked eye, there's not much difference (externally)
between a DC-9 and the MD-series, or the DC-10 and the MD-11. This is
what I was referring to when I said "parts don't fall off the MD-series
like they do the DC-series"...

Glen Wooten

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Feb 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/19/97
to

Matt Henry (ban...@netaxs.com) wrote:
: tsu...@biosci.cbs.umn.edu wrote:
: : 1. LOCATION: Okay, so you want to run a convention with a national
: : scope (as AAC is being marketed). What is your TOP, #1, above all
: : else priority in location? Is it ... to be where most of the con
: : staff live? *bzzzzt* Sorry, WRONG answer, thank you for playing our
: : game. Your top priority in deciding where to hold the con is to make
: : it easily accessible to as many people as possible, and these days,
: : that means locating it near a MAJOR airport. And Albany does not
: : qualify.
: : It only adds insult to injury that they claim on the official
: : web page that they "didn't just choose Albany because most of the con
: : staff live there." Right. Any of you who believe that, email me.

: : I've got some great land in Florida to sell you. I'm sure Albany is a
: : lovely city. There are hundreds of cities in the United States that
: : have airports, and I could go to any one of them and take some nice
: : photos and fill a web page with nice things about it (except for
: : Trenton, NJ). That does NOT make them good sites for a convention.
: : To illustrate: a friend of mine ran price comparisons for airline
: : fares from several random U.S. cities around the country to L.A. and
: : to Albany for the same weekend on different airlines. He found that
: : the fares to Albany were consistently higher, by $100-$250. And some
: : cities couldn't even reach Albany as a destination. (And yes,
: : Cleveland is a fairly major airport. It's a hub for Continental now.)

: I do so hate to take the winds from your sail, but I did some price
: checking with a travel agency today. I live in Orlando, Fl, about
: 1200-1300 miles from the con. I ivestigated a 7/2/97 departure and 7/6/97
: return. EVERY airline that serves Albany returned with a $204 airfare.
: No hub. Not a major airport, but still a dirt-cheap fare.
: My advice to your friend is to find a travel agent who will HUNT for
: a K or Q class fare, the traditional "supersaver" fares.

Well, here you run into the fact that the "hub & spoke" system is
MASSIVELLY confusing. I ran a comparative test on fares, and this is
what I came up with (for 7/2 - 7/7):

SAN $498 (San Diego)
LAX $518 (Los Angeles)
SFO $528 (San Francisco)
TUS $448 (Tuscon)
DFW $663 (Dallas/Fort Worth)
ATL $299 (Atlanta)
MCO $198 (Orlando)
MEM $618 (Memphis)
ORD $459 (Chicago)
CVG $350 (Cincinnati)

For the most part, about 50% - 75% higher than flying into an equivalent
distance primary or secondary airport... If you are any closer than 600
miles, the cost of flying would just be insane (love them $50 San Diego
to San Francisco fares...)

As you can see, the prices vary DRASTICALLY. This does not take into
account some of the bizzare restrictions that can occur (such as red-eyes
& such...) Orlando just happens to be lucky...

Check with EAAsySabre when you can, that will get you lots of good raw
data for making a decent fare. Also, see if an airport that's nearby can
get you a better fare. For the most part, flying into Albany IS much
more expensive than flying into a primary or secondary airport, but if
you are willing to work at it, you can sometimes get a decent fare...

Matt Henry

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Feb 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/19/97
to

tsu...@biosci.cbs.umn.edu wrote:
: With an unprecedented FOUR furry conventions (or, three plus one
: sizable furry track at Duckon), the question of which one to go to is
: no longer academic nor even geographic. So to help out those
: undecideds, here are my:
:
: Top Ten Reasons NOT To Go To Albany Anthrocon
:
: 6. Being in the eastern region, AAC is obviously competing with
: MoreFurCon, and rumor has it that it was started because people
: weren't happy with how CFE was run. I can't think of another reason
: to have *another* east coast convention. This whole branching out of
: conventions is something I find really annoying -- it's going to
: result in a regionalization of the fandom, with a bunch of local
: conventions and no single convention where *everyone* goes.
: CFE/MoreFurCon is okay, I guess, because there are people who can't
: afford to go to California. Duckon is cool because it's in the
: midwest, in the summer, and it's a very low-key thing, not played up
: as a Big Furry Con. MoreFurCon is starting to draw attendance from
: the West Coast, which is a good thing. AAC is going to be taking
: attendance away from MoreFurCon and Duckon, which is not a good thing.

So what's wrong witha little competition? MoreFurCon, the con
formerly known as CFE, was driving fans away, with draconic policies,
among other things. Thus, someone else decided to throw a con with some
realistic policies, and people took notice. Do you see Stan Lee throwing
a fit when DC starts up a new superhero title? It's called competition.
MFC slit its own wrists. AAC is a welcome addition to the east coast, in
my book.


: I'm starting to think I should go to MoreFurCon just as a sort of
: protest vote.

Well, give the handful of people there my best. Mad Badger Studios
will not be attending MoreFurCon, now that a superior replacement is on
the eastern seaboard.

Elisabeth B. Shaw

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Feb 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/19/97
to

In article <5eepq3$gok$1...@velar.isc-br.com>, marm...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Mitchell Marmel) wrote:
(merged? It gets

>>confusing who ate who in the industry...) and became McDonnel Douglas.

And now "Big Mac" and Boeing are merging. Things in St. Louis are getting
interesting indeed.

>Incidentally, the Santa Monica airport has (or at least had, circa 1983 or
>so) a very nice mini-museum dedicated to things Douglas, as well as a DC-2
>in nice condition. I also did a quick Web search for the DC-7; as I
>suspected, it was a four-engined tricycle geared transport. Apparently,
>it was a stretched DC-6, and the photos clearly show its DC-3 ancestry.
>The DC-7 came out in 1953, and was rendered obsolete by the Boeing 707 in
>1958. This short-livedness probably prompted Ernie Kovacs' joke which
>heads this thread. At least one DC-7 is still in firefighting service out
>West.

My mother worked for Douglas a longlongtimeago right before she and Dad got
married.

(about to check the aircraft descriptions on the TWA flight she's booking
anytimenow...)

Aki. (or is that Amelia Earhart?) :3
At least it's not one of those American Eagle planes...


>>but they are NOT the same aircraft internally. Same basic airframe, but
>>a whole different bird.
>

>(sour grin) For starters, the seats are worse.
>

>>The concept that "they took DC-9's off the line, tore off the 'DC-9'
>>label, and slapped on an 'MD-80' label" just is incorrect. Besides, if
>>they were doing that, why are there still DC-9's & DC-10's still flying?
>>You could call them "younger siblings" or even "cousins", but not the
>>same craft...
>

>Last I checked, no airline uses the "DC" designation on their aircraft
>anymore; following the infamous DC-10 crash, that got dumped like a hot
>potato ("I ain't flyin' in one of them DC-10 deathtraps. What's that?
>It's an MD-10? Oh, that's okay, then."). I certainly could be wrong,
>though; my main source of info is the occasional foray into an airport
>and the odd conversation or two with a travel agent...
>

>-MMM-
>

sola...@eden.com

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Feb 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/19/97
to

ban...@netaxs.com (Matt Henry) wrote:

> I do so hate to take the winds from your sail, but I did some price
>checking with a travel agency today. I live in Orlando, Fl, about
>1200-1300 miles from the con. I ivestigated a 7/2/97 departure and 7/6/97
>return. EVERY airline that serves Albany returned with a $204 airfare.
>No hub. Not a major airport, but still a dirt-cheap fare.
> My advice to your friend is to find a travel agent who will HUNT for
>a K or Q class fare, the traditional "supersaver" fares.

<<nod>> I, personally, came up with several fares in the $200-$250 region
(7/2/97 departure, 7/7/97 return) from Austin, TX to Albany and back, using
the American Airlines EASY SAABRE gateway at http://www.easysabre.com ...

Finding bargains in airline fares is just like finding bargains anyplace
else... you've gotta put a little effort into _hunting_ for them. :)

Elisabeth B. Shaw

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Feb 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/19/97
to

In article <5ee6so$5...@netaxs.com>, ban...@netaxs.com (Matt Henry) wrote:

> So what's wrong witha little competition? MoreFurCon, the con
>formerly known as CFE, was driving fans away, with draconic policies,
>among other things. Thus, someone else decided to throw a con with some
>realistic policies, and people took notice. Do you see Stan Lee throwing
>a fit when DC starts up a new superhero title? It's called competition.
>MFC slit its own wrists. AAC is a welcome addition to the east coast, in
>my book.

AAC is also a first year convention, which is fine in my book. I've gone to
worse. Case in point: the one and only Gulfcon (1984), in Mobile, AL. The
con organisers were expecting 500 people. I kept telling 'em "you're lucky if
you're going to get 150". Gulfcon had delusions of grandeur, even
(especially?) with Elisabeth Sladen as GOH. The con had about 100 tops.
It turned out to be some spoiled rich kid's idea of a plaything.

Same kid had the gall to send me a bouquet of roses. I gave him the cold
shoulder next con we crossed.

So yah, I welcome AAC. Now if we can get something a little further south...

> I do so hate to take the winds from your sail, but I did some price
>checking with a travel agency today. I live in Orlando, Fl, about
>1200-1300 miles from the con. I ivestigated a 7/2/97 departure and 7/6/97
>return. EVERY airline that serves Albany returned with a $204 airfare.
>No hub. Not a major airport, but still a dirt-cheap fare.
> My advice to your friend is to find a travel agent who will HUNT for
>a K or Q class fare, the traditional "supersaver" fares.

What I do is to check Easy Sabre/Travelocity (www.travelocity.com), then
compare notes with a travel agent. It's called "doing your own homework".
I found a couple of extremely cheap fares, $179 round trip from MSY-San Diego
and $225 MSY-YYZ (Toronto). The online services are free; the only thing you
have to pay for is the actual ticketing if you decide to go that route.
(MSY=New Orleans. Don't ask me why, but I think it's shorthand for Moisant.)


>: I'm starting to think I should go to MoreFurCon just as a sort of
>: protest vote.
>
> Well, give the handful of people there my best. Mad Badger Studios
>will not be attending MoreFurCon, now that a superior replacement is on
>the eastern seaboard.

Send an ounce to AAC!

Aki. :3
(just a cabaret dancer from the swamps.)
Travel Agent, RMS _Titanic_

Matt Henry

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Feb 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/19/97
to

cmelv...@aol.com wrote:
:
: In article <Pine.SOL.3.94.97021...@biosci.cbs.umn.edu>, <tsu...@biosci.cbs.umn.edu> wrote:
:
: >My

: >experience at furry cons has been that people go to see other people, not
: >to go to panels.
:
: I, for one, -would- go to more panels if they were better presented. Too often I've gone to a panel at Confurence only to find either panelists absent, no moderator, or low attendance -- the latter is attributable to low interest, yes, but if the
panel isn't interesting, then it isn't going to attract anybody.
: Matt Henry did the publishing panel at CF this year, and while it wasn't bad, it was sort of ill-prepared. Not Matt -- he was as prepared as he could be and did a fine job, considering he was asked at the last minute to do the panel; but if a few
more panelists had been invited and invited early enough to prepare something for presentation, it would have been more interesting.


*grins* Give me another chance. Duckon has asked me to do the
self-publishing panel, and I'll be doing it at AAC as well. This time,
since I'll have had more than a quick elevator ride to gather material,
I'll be putting on a much better presentation this summer con season. 8X)

snow...@aol.com

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Feb 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/19/97
to

In article <5ecco7$c...@crucigera.fysh.org>, marm...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Mitchell Marmel) writes:

>>: MD-11 is a slightly worked over DC-10 (nice planes, DC-10s; one of the
>>: more comfortable cross-country flyers).
>>

>>Yes, but the MD series have had a MUCH better safety record than the
>>DC-8, 9, or 10 series. Whether they were made better by McDonnel
>>Douglas or whatever, the MD series falls apart much less...
>
>No, no, no. You misunderstand. They took an actual DC-9, tore off the
>old registration plate, riveted a new one with the same info but a model
>number that said "MD-90" or whatever on it, and passed it off as an entirely
>different model. It's like renaming a 1985 Plymouth a 1985 Dodge...
>
>

Sorry, but youre mistaken...for example the DC-9- MD90, the only thing thats really the same is the basic layout... All the electronics, engines, and systems are state of the art as of 1990, (thats where the 90 in MD90 comes from, the newest is the MD95) After all, if you have a good basic design, why change what works? Theyre all new airframes, and the crew has a much lighter workload to the computer systems on board. for all practical purposes, they are entierly diffrent models. Yes, they may look the same as their older cousins, but aircraft dont have to be pretty on the outside.

Brian Kinnison

Ed Dyer, III ( Pelzig )

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Feb 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/19/97
to

Greet, greets. :)


Elisabeth B. Shaw wrote:

> AAC is also a first year convention, which is fine in my book. I've gone to
> worse. Case in point: the one and only Gulfcon (1984), in Mobile, AL. The
> con organisers were expecting 500 people. I kept telling 'em "you're lucky if
> you're going to get 150". Gulfcon had delusions of grandeur, even
> (especially?) with Elisabeth Sladen as GOH. The con had about 100 tops.
> It turned out to be some spoiled rich kid's idea of a plaything.


Wait...hold the boat....I do believe I can top Gulfcon with....*drum
roll*...the one and only Tweedle-Con! This was held in Hammond, LA a few
years ago....I can't remember the date since the con itself wasn't worth
remembering. :)

All told, attendance had to have topped out at maybe, 50. The dealer's
corner had, all told, about eight vendors in it. I was doing anime video
programming for it which was about the most things you could do outside
of the video game room where you could retro with Atari 2600 games and
Celeco. People rag on the draconian measures at CFEast...feh,
Tweedle-Con was draconian. IMHO of course.

Incidently, Mary Hanson-Roberts was the GAOH and I did get to meet her
and talk to her at length. A very delightful lady she is.

> So yah, I welcome AAC. Now if we can get something a little further south...

Here, here!!


> (MSY=New Orleans. Don't ask me why, but I think it's shorthand for Moisant.)

It is. :) I used to work with one of the top three courior services and
MSY is the code for Moisant...though, I always wondered where the "Y"
fit in. :)


*wavies*


TCASF,

Ed "Pelzig" Dyer

cmelv...@aol.com

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Feb 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/19/97
to

>My
>experience at furry cons has been that people go to see other people, not
>to go to panels.

I, for one, -would- go to more panels if they were better presented. Too often I've gone to a panel at Confurence only to find either panelists absent, no moderator, or low attendance -- the latter is attributable to low interest, yes, but if the panel isn't interesting, then it isn't going to attract anybody.


Matt Henry did the publishing panel at CF this year, and while it wasn't bad, it was sort of ill-prepared. Not Matt -- he was as prepared as he could be and did a fine job, considering he was asked at the last minute to do the panel; but if a few more panelists had been invited and invited early enough to prepare something for presentation, it would have been more interesting.

The best panel I've seen or been on in recent years was at CFE this last year, when Paul Kidd, Darrell Benvenuto, Matt High and I were brought together to discuss the future of comics. We basically did it 'in the round', sitting at a table facing each other, with an audience sitting around us and joining in with questions. I found I was very comfortable with that setting, and with being able to actually see and converse directly to the others, without having to peer over the length of the table past the other panelists. And I thought that particular session went very well.

One of the things I'd always enjoyed at SDCC were the various panels, where creators or fans would get together and discuss particular topics of interest, or preview upcoming projects, or hold little seminars on writing or drawing. I've always been a little dissappointed that Confurence's panels hadn't been better organized in this regard.

(I have to note that this is a -generalization-... not all of Confurence's panels suffer from this malaise, and some of them apparently do quite well. But, in general, they seem to fall a bit flat. I'm looking forward to see how well AAC's will do. I'm encouraged by their planning thus far.)


David G. Bell

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Feb 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/19/97
to

In article <01bc1e0f$cd81a660$3173...@blewis.sisna.com>
captp...@isat.com "Captain Packrat" writes:

> Mitchell Marmel <marm...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> wrote in article
> <5eaj18$i0d$1...@velar.isc-br.com>...
> > In article <jaguar1E...@netcom.com>,
> > Glen Wooten <jag...@netcom.com> wrote:
> > >Actually, I don't have too much of a problem with the whole MD series.
> > >They have a much better track record than the DC series does...
> >
> > Ummmm...you DO know that an MD-80 IS a DC-8, and an MD-90 is a DC-9,
> > don't you? Exact same airplane, just a different designation. And the

> > MD-11 is a slightly worked over DC-10 (nice planes, DC-10s; one of the
> > more comfortable cross-country flyers).
>

> Maybe he was referring to the early DC series, i.e., the DC-3, DC-3s,
> DC-4, etc. :)

Don't knock the DC-3 -- it's a damn hard to find a more modern aircraft
which can do the same jobs for the same cost.

--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, Furry, and Punslinger..

cmelv...@aol.com

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Feb 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/19/97
to

>My
>experience at furry cons has been that people go to see other people, not
>to go to panels.

I, for one, -would- go to more panels if they were better presented. Too often I've gone to a panel at Confurence only to find either panelists absent, no moderator, or low attendance -- the latter is attributable to low interest, yes, but if the panel isn't interesting, then it isn't going to attract anybody.

James B. Littlejohn

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Feb 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/20/97
to

In <5ecco7$c...@crucigera.fysh.org> marm...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu

(Mitchell Marmel) writes:
>
>In article <jaguar1E...@netcom.com>,
>Glen Wooten <jag...@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>No, no, no. You misunderstand. They took an actual DC-9, tore off
the
>old registration plate, riveted a new one with the same info but a
model
>number that said "MD-90" or whatever on it, and passed it off as an
entirely
>different model. It's like renaming a 1985 Plymouth a 1985 Dodge...
>

I think they already did that (Dodge/Plymouth Colt)

>>That is true. I'd still like to see the Super Constellation flying,
>>though...
>
>You and me both. (sigh) Lovely birds, the Connies; my uncle flew one
for
>El Al for "Operation Magic Carpet" after WWII.

Back in 1977 I was in the navy stationed at NAS Key West in Fl. with
VF-101 and every monday around noon an Air Force Super Connie from
Homestead AFB would make 1 touch & go landing at our field and than
head back to Homestead, It got to were I would arange to take my lunch
hour around that time just so I could watch it when it came through.



>We have one made into a
>restaurant on US Rt. 1 in Langhorne (north of Phila); I'll have to see

>about eating there someday...
>
>
Ouch, What a waste of a great plane.

James.


snow...@aol.com

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Feb 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/20/97
to

In article <5ecco7$c...@crucigera.fysh.org>, marm...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Mitchell Marmel) writes:

>>: MD-11 is a slightly worked over DC-10 (nice planes, DC-10s; one of the
>>: more comfortable cross-country flyers).
>>


>>Yes, but the MD series have had a MUCH better safety record than the
>>DC-8, 9, or 10 series. Whether they were made better by McDonnel
>>Douglas or whatever, the MD series falls apart much less...
>

>No, no, no. You misunderstand. They took an actual DC-9, tore off the
>old registration plate, riveted a new one with the same info but a model
>number that said "MD-90" or whatever on it, and passed it off as an entirely
>different model. It's like renaming a 1985 Plymouth a 1985 Dodge...
>
>

Sorry, but youre mistaken...for example the DC-9- MD90, the only thing thats really the same is the basic layout... All the electronics, engines, and systems are state of the art as of 1990, (thats where the 90 in MD90 comes from, the newest is the MD95) After all, if you have a good basic design, why change what works? Theyre all new airframes, and the crew has a much lighter workload to the computer systems on board. for all practical purposes, they are entierly diffrent models. Yes, they may look the same as their older cousins, but aircraft dont have to be pretty on the outside.

Brian Kinnison

Matt J. McCullar

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Feb 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/20/97
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Antarctic Press had a "con" of sorts in Dallas several years ago,
although they said from the get-go that it was just going to be a
one-room affair with some videos playing and comics on sale. I went,
bought stuff, dodged about 50 people while I was there. I forget what AP
called this, but it still drew more people than a... well, GATHERING
might be more precise... in Texarkana last October.

I drove east, Mike and Carole Curtis drove south. They were featured
guests and while we enjoyed the weekend, everyone living in the town
found themselves something else to do all day Saturday. We shared the
dealer's room with about six other folks and saw (at most) 10 congoers
all day long. Mike got some scripting done and I drew a few things, but
after a while we just bagged up and hit the used bookstores down the
street.

I later learned that most congoers arrived Saturday night for the costume
contest (a couple of dozen, perhaps). There were some soccer games going
on that day, or something. But the art show was filled with good stuff!
I'm glad I went, on the whole.

Next: BackYardCon?

Matt J. McCullar

WitchCat 1

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Feb 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/20/97
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Tsusman, Tygger doesn't hate furdom or those involved in it. Like alot of
us, she's just tired of all the crap out there in the fandom. And, by
definition, Anthropomorphics takes into account ALOT more than just funny
animals. Myself, I hope they have a panel on morphed machines.


Captain Packrat

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Feb 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/20/97
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"David G. Bell" <db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<856387...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>...

> In article <01bc1e0f$cd81a660$3173...@blewis.sisna.com>
> captp...@isat.com "Captain Packrat" writes:
>
> > Mitchell Marmel <marm...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> wrote in article
> > <5eaj18$i0d$1...@velar.isc-br.com>...
> > > In article <jaguar1E...@netcom.com>,
> > > Glen Wooten <jag...@netcom.com> wrote:
> > > >Actually, I don't have too much of a problem with the whole MD
series.
> > > >They have a much better track record than the DC series does...
> > >
> > > Ummmm...you DO know that an MD-80 IS a DC-8, and an MD-90 is a DC-9,
> > > don't you? Exact same airplane, just a different designation. And
the
> > > MD-11 is a slightly worked over DC-10 (nice planes, DC-10s; one of
the
> > > more comfortable cross-country flyers).
> >
> > Maybe he was referring to the early DC series, i.e., the DC-3, DC-3s,
> > DC-4, etc. :)
>
> Don't knock the DC-3 -- it's a damn hard to find a more modern aircraft
> which can do the same jobs for the same cost.

I wasn't knocking the DC-3. I flew one once. One of the best transport
planes ever built. (The DC-3s on the other paw....)

ru...@delphi.com

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Feb 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/20/97
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<tsu...@biosci.cbs.umn.edu> writes:

>With an unprecedented FOUR furry conventions (or, three plus one
>sizable furry track at Duckon), the question of which one to go to is
>no longer academic nor even geographic. So to help out those
>undecideds, here are my:
>
>Top Ten Reasons NOT To Go To Albany Anthrocon
>

Someone with an agenda? Why do you feel threatened by AAC?



>
>8. Timing, part I: It's scheduled the same weekend as Chicago Comicon,
>
>one of only two major comic conventions in the country (and the other
>is in San Diego, much less accessible to the east coast -- and,
>incidentally, less than a month later).
>

Neither of which matter to a great many furries. Especially Chicago.



>
>7. Timing, part II: It's July 4th weekend! It's the major holiday
>weekend of the summer.
>

Which is why MANY events are scheduled for then. People are free of work and
school obligations and on the road. Many are starting vacations.

And it never seemed to hurt Chicago or San Diego, did it?



>
>6. Being in the eastern region, AAC is obviously competing with
>MoreFurCon, and rumor has it that it was started because people
>weren't happy with how CFE was run. I can't think of another reason


I don't think that was the whole reason. Location was another. Either way,
it was discussed here in the open.

People complained that CFE was A)not in the east (it's in the Great Lakes
Region) and B) was at a VERY bad time (and had a close call with weather
to underscore that). They were told, "If you don't like it, start your own
con." So they did.

Then there's the image problem with CF. Albany has promised to try to address
that. That's more than we've heard from either CF or Morefurcon.

Response to customer concerns is plenty of reason to patronize any operation.



>CFE/MoreFurCon is okay, I guess, because there are people who can't
>afford to go to California. Duckon is cool because it's in the
>midwest, in the summer, and it's a very low-key thing, not played up
>as a Big Furry Con. MoreFurCon is starting to draw attendance from
>the West Coast, which is a good thing. AAC is going to be taking
>attendance away from MoreFurCon and Duckon, which is not a good thing.
>

PhilCon was drawing people from the West Coast. There's nothing new there.

As for AAC drawing people away from Morefurcon: doubtful. There's plenty of
time between them. What's more likely is that AAC will pick up people who
wouldn't go to Morefurcon anyway. Same is probably true for Duckon. A few
dealers might be torn as to which to attend.


>about 15-20 people there, out of the 1000+ members. So either AAC is
>planning a ridiculous number of panels, to be attended by less than
>one percent of the membership, or there would really be no way for me
>to earn back my membership fee. Either way, it's not making me want
>to attend the con.
>

Well, it sounds an awful lot like you don't want to go anyway.



>
>4. The Moreau Awards, part II: Okay, this is one thing that REALLY
>annoyed me. Given the shaky premise (see #10) that furry fandom is
>big enough to have these awards, where is the logical place to have
>them? The Hugos are voted on at WorldCon, the LARGEST SF convention
>of the year. Wouldn't the logical place to start this be CF? Does
>AAC really think they're going to snag over a thousand people their
>first time out? It's an unproven convention, and they want to be the
>repository for the awards for the best in furry fandom. Well, if they


>were doing this because they wanted to recognize the best contributors
>
>to the fandom, they'd organize the awards to have it at CF. Having it
>
>at AAC in its first year makes it a cheap marketing shtick to drag
>people to their convention. I want no part of that.
>

If CF wanted awards it would have them.

The way it works is: the person who gets an idea follows it through. WorldCon
started as an imitation of PhilCon. Did anyone suggest the Hugo Awards should
have been offered to PhilCon first? No. Why should this be any different.

The same order of events has been repeated many times. Anime East started
the Tezuka Awards. I don't recall any comments that they should have given
the awards over to an older con.

Frankly, if CF or Morefurcon or Eurofurence or anyone else wants to start

their own awards there is nothing stopping them. SF has Hugo, Nebula, and a
bunch of other awards. Things will shake out of their own accord. One award
will become the most desired/prestigious and the others will line up behind
or fade away.

Yes, some changes are needed, especially as to categories.



>
> I'm starting to think I should go to MoreFurCon just as a sort of
>protest vote.
>

Sounds an awful lot like you were going to all along.

I mean, your post wasn't supportive of AAC in any way. All you did was
complain. It's hard to believe you gave attending a second's thought.

I'm not thrilled with its location and some of the aspects myself but I'm
not putting up a "Top Ten" list. That's the sort of behavior I'd expect
from someone whose ox has been gored - the competition.

But look at it this way - if it's such a bad idea/location/time it should
fall on its face in a spectacular manner. If it does, you get to say "told
you so!" If not, they get to say the same to you.

At the very least, the competition may wake up the older cons and make them
try to become more attractive draws to the fandom.

How much worse can things get?

- Ray

Elisabeth B. Shaw

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Feb 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/21/97
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In article <330ADC...@mail.idt.net>, pelz...@mail.idt.net wrote:
>Greet, greets. :)

And greets to you too.

>Elisabeth B. Shaw wrote:

>Wait...hold the boat....I do believe I can top Gulfcon with....*drum
>roll*...the one and only Tweedle-Con! This was held in Hammond, LA a few
>years ago....I can't remember the date since the con itself wasn't worth
>remembering. :)

I was there, too. The two most interesting things were a German restaurant I
discovered in Ponchatoula and Tal calling me long distance Saturday evening
to tell me he won $1500 in the Lotto drawing. I helped run the British video
room. We were going to have an "Absolutely Fabulous" room party, but no one
showed up and we all went to the dance that night.

>All told, attendance had to have topped out at maybe, 50. The dealer's
>corner had, all told, about eight vendors in it. I was doing anime video
>programming for it which was about the most things you could do outside
>of the video game room where you could retro with Atari 2600 games and
>Celeco. People rag on the draconian measures at CFEast...feh,
>Tweedle-Con was draconian. IMHO of course.

I don't know much about the actual running of that one, but I do remember the
con changing hotels at the last minute because the original hotel didn't like
the idea of the con's proceeds being donated to an AIDS task force.

>Incidently, Mary Hanson-Roberts was the GAOH and I did get to meet her
>and talk to her at length. A very delightful lady she is.

Mary's a sweetie indeed. I did a panel with her at Miss-Con in '92. She also
showed up at the dance.

Sorry I missed you there.

Yes, MSY indeed stands for Moisant. Sigh. I had a hard day dealing with the
American Airlines tech support people. No wonder they want better working
conditions. The place sounded like a zoo.

Aki. :3

ffang

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Feb 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/21/97
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jag...@netcom.com (Glen Wooten) wrote:

8<enormous, Gods-awful snip>8

>: >: And, oh, say, Newark and Cleveland are simply SWINGING convention towns, too?
>: >
>: >Actually, scary as it might seem, Cleveland gets a LOT of convention
>: >business. They are geared for it...

Ah, yessss - the ol' Mistake on the Lake ;) Cleveland's not really
that bad a town, though. The river hasn't caught fire in years. <BG>

>: Brrrrr. :)
>
>You'd rather go to Branson, Missouri?
>
"Branson, Missouri. My dad says it's like Las Vegas - if it was run
by Ned Flanders" -- Bart Simpson


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
C.L. Basso, S.M. -+- Optical Mineralogist -+- Toledo, O.
"Mineralogy is the indispensable foundation upon which
petrographical investigation is based." - Ernst Weinschenk

Matt Henry

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Feb 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/21/97
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Mitchell Marmel (marm...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu) wrote:
: In article <jaguar1E...@netcom.com>,
: Glen Wooten <jag...@netcom.com> wrote:
:
: (sour grin) For starters, the seats are worse.
:
: >The concept that "they took DC-9's off the line, tore off the 'DC-9'
: >label, and slapped on an 'MD-80' label" just is incorrect. Besides, if
: >they were doing that, why are there still DC-9's & DC-10's still flying?
: >You could call them "younger siblings" or even "cousins", but not the
: >same craft...
:
: Last I checked, no airline uses the "DC" designation on their aircraft
: anymore; following the infamous DC-10 crash, that got dumped like a hot
: potato ("I ain't flyin' in one of them DC-10 deathtraps. What's that?
: It's an MD-10? Oh, that's okay, then."). I certainly could be wrong,
: though; my main source of info is the occasional foray into an airport
: and the odd conversation or two with a travel agent...


I don't think so. The DC-10 hatches were an item in the late 70's,
and were fixed once the problem was located. I still believe that the DC
designation is used on the DC-9 and DC-10's still in service. I took a
DC-10 in from DEtroit last month, and the emergency card still had it
listed as a DC-series aircraft.
The MD-80 is a cousin of the DC-9. The MD-80 is larger, with a
bigger seating capacity, often referred to as the "DC-9 stretch." Though
I have to admit, the 727 still ranks highest in my book as the sharpest
looking commercial aircraft still in service.....

Craig E. Ransom

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Feb 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/21/97
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<< Cleveland's not really that bad a town, though. The river hasn't
caught fire in years. <BG> >>

Oh? What do you do for RUN NOW, then? <vbg>

-- Craig (The Data Ferret)
CPD 2.1/LPM 2.53; CFD 3.102; CW 2002.01; TopSpeed C/C++/M2
Using Virtual Access 3.52 build 159c (32-bit) Win95
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Dr. Hunter S.
Thompson


Robert Teague

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Feb 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/21/97
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Matt J. McCullar wrote:
>
> Next: BackYardCon?
>
> Matt J. McCullar

Hi, Matt!

Speaking of nanocons, what about our Shandacons? Can't get TOO much smaller!

Robert

Paul Raymond Bennett

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Feb 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/21/97