Marvel does it!!
Ray Rooney
Date: 03-04-95 (11:43)
Subject:Re: THIS IS IT! Marvel goes exclusive!!!!!!
Message-ID: <3jab77$3...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Newsgroup: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: golly...@aol.com (GollyMoses)
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
MARVEL TO EXCLUSIVELY DISTRIBUTE MARVEL AND MALIBU COMICS
NEW YORK, March 3 /PRNewswire/ -- Marvel Entertainment Group, Inc.
(NYSE: MRV) announced today that Heroes World, its recently acquired
distributor, will exclusively market and distribute products from its
Marvel Comics and Malibu Comics lines to the comic book specialty stores
or "direct" market starting July 1, 1995. Marvel's product is currently
sold by seven specialty distributors who buy Marvel and Malibu Comics in
bulk and then breakdown, markup and resell the product to specialty
retailers.
Terry C. Stewart, Marvel Comics president and COO, said, "The time
has come to emphasize the concerns of the retail community and propel
comic retailing into the future. Going direct and exclusive is the most
effective way to provide improved merchandising and marketing services
needed to grow the direct market business. We expect a smooth
transition as Heroes World transfers its non-Marvel business to other
distributors."
"Today, retailers face new challenges, bigger obstacles, and the
greatest potential for success," Mr. Stewart continued. "So we've
designed a number of systems, procedures and programs to enhance the
retailer/distributor/publisher relationship. We think retailers who
want to expand their businesses will be very interested in these
developments."
In December, Marvel acquired Heroes World, which distributes
comics, cards and related items from Maine to Virginia, announcing plans
to expand operations nationally and internationally. Founded in 1975,
Heroes World began as a comics mail-order company and has become an
industry leader by expanding its range of services through its
commitment to personal service and reliability.
Marvel Entertainment Group, Inc. is a leading youth entertainment
company. Operations include Marvel Comics, Fleer trading cards, Dubble
Bubble confectionery products, Toy Biz toys, Panini stickers, and
consumer products, media and advertising-promotion licensing based on
Marvel characters and properties.
CO: Marvel Entertainment, Inc.
ST: New York
IN: ENT
SU:
Transmitted: 95-03-03 00:00:00 EST
(Note: This was confirmation to a previous post from Dark Horse Comics.)
Things just got - interesting.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
NOTICE! My service provider, VoiceNet/DSC, will be making system changes
starting March 7th and continuing for several days or more. I may or may
not see any follow-ups or questions. If you need to reach me use netmail
or ask Major Matt Major to pass me a message.
* OLX 3.01 00-0000 * Keep repeating: It's only a hobby, it's only a hobby...
Scott Alan Malcomson
: Sheesh! All this time and no mention of this?
Well, I @shouted it on FurryMuck and got a mostly blase response, so I
figured no one was interested. I've been involved rather heavily on the
comics hierarchies of late, and have been doing my gritching there.
: Things just got - interesting.
Tell me about it. -:/
---LCD
D.M. Quozl Falk
: Recently in alt.fan.furry, hors...@indirect.com (Scott Alan Malcomson) wrote:
: >Ray Rooney (ray.r...@dscmail.com) wrote:
: >[Announcement by Marvel of exclusive distribution deal snipped]
: >: Sheesh! All this time and no mention of this?
: >
: >Well, I @shouted it on FurryMuck and got a mostly blase response, so I
: >figured no one was interested. I've been involved rather heavily on the
: >comics hierarchies of late, and have been doing my gritching there.
: Well, it might help if someone explained the significance of the
: announcement in terms that folks who aren't familiar with the comics
: business could understand. If it doesn't cause trouble for the independents
: like AP and Mu and Pailliard Press who publish the comics I like, should I
: be worried? I can see where the distributors are going to be losing a BIG
: chunk of their business, so there may be some shakeup there, but who cares
: about the middlemen? Will it impact the producers or retailers?
What it means is that the regular distributors are going to lose up to
75% of their business, since that's how much of a chunk of distributed
product Marvel/Malibu was. This would spell the collapse of several
distributors, including possibly Capitol City or Diamond, the two largest
distributors. For the smaller companies, it could mean cutoff of
distribution even harder than is currently. For retailers, it'll actually
result in the loss of the *small* press comics, not Marvel/Malibu, since
they could just as easily get on Marvel's distribution system...
For the CUSTOMER, choices are severely reduced, and it will become much
harder to get smaller-press comics, since the other distributors will be
deferred to in favour of Marvel/Malibu, since that's where a comic store
makes up to 90% of its business. (DC is relatively small and weak,
compared to the Marvel & Malibu [Image] lines....)
What does this mean to the average comic-buying Furry fan? It'll be even
*harder* to get yer AP's and MU's, once this goes into effect! :(
....Quozl!
--
//////======////////// |Dennis M. Falk |221 Huntoon St.|TTA/Animaniacs/WB
/ @ ) \\\\\\\\\\ |aka "Quozl Mephit"|Eureka, CA |TaleSpin/CnD-RR
*___(_____(___| |(qu...@netcom.com)|95501-4115 USA |Fifi/Babs/Minerva
Supporting your right to own a pet Mustelid! (Skunks, ferrets, otters, minks..)
Ray Rooney
>Well, it might help if someone explained the significance of the
>announcement in terms that folks who aren't familiar with the comics
>business could understand. If it doesn't cause trouble for the independents
>like AP and Mu and Pailliard Press who publish the comics I like, should I
>be worried? I can see where the distributors are going to be losing a BIG
>chunk of their business, so there may be some shakeup there, but who cares
>about the middlemen? Will it impact the producers or retailers?
comics at a deep discount. Some of the smaller guys or those with marginal
funds will have to go to jobbers - people who buy from HW, mark it up to
cover their costs and profit, and re-sell it to others - which will kill some
of them.
The comic market has been hurting for the last year or more, depending on
which segment we talk about. A lot of shops have gone under or are on the
edge. Smaller distributors are hurting because of all this too.
Shops are not going to have the profit margins they used to. If they buy some
comics from Heroes World and the rest from, say, Diamond, they are not likely
to have enough volume to qualify for the best discounts from either. This is
a very strong inducement for them to buy from one distributor if they can.
Since they _need_ Marvel to survive, guess which one that's likely to be.
This will mean that they will be unlikely to carry things not distributed by
Marvel/Heroes World. (Some big shops will.) If Heroes World drops or does
not pick up a publisher they are going to be in a world of hurt.
If the shop decides to tough it out and stay with Diamond their costs for
Marvel/Fleer/Panini/etc. stuff will be higher than their competitors. They
will look for savings in other areas.
Want to guess what those areas will be? Yep, small, slow-selling, independent
books. Things like those furry titles.
Our hope now is that Diamond can offer some compensating incentive for shops
to stay with them or that the hue and cry that is building is enough to make
Marvel back down on this.
Either way, it's going to be a heck of a summer.
Ray Rooney
>The way it looks, according to the article you posted, Marvel is cutting
>out *all* the middlemen... (The distributors we know *are* the jobbers..)
Not exactly.
As usually used terminology is:
Distributor: buys in bulk at steep discount. Sells to retailers.
Jobber: buys at same rates as other retailers. Sells to those who can't/won't
qualify for that category.
As far as Marvel is concerned, Diamond will be on the same footing/discount as
Komix & Kardz. Their prices to retailers will be higher than the
retailer can get from Marvel/HW. As far as the shops are concerned Diamond is
now a jobber for Marvel product. They can do better elsewhere.
The only retailers who are going to continue to buy from Diamond are those who
either hate Marvel or can't get an account with HW. Not exactly the cream of
the crop.
As far as Marvel being 75% of the market, that's not correct either. They're
big but not that big.
Sales Statistics from Diamond Distributor for March 1995
Market Share by Publisher Dollars
/ Note: Marvel includes Malibu.
35.14 Marvel 18.70 DC
14.17 Image 8.57 Dark Horse
5.39 Acclaim 1.89 Wizard
1.30 Chaos 1.16 Tekno
.95 Viz .92 General Media
.80 Topps .72 Harris
.62 Father Tree .60 Fantagraphics
.55 Crusade .53 Hamilton
.45 London Night .40 Antarctic
.39 Stabur .20 Gemstone
Market Share for select title families
17.87 X Men 3.63 2099
1.47 Ultraverse 7.12 Wildstorm
3.01 Vertigo .48 Milestone
Market Share by Genre, with #1 seller
/ Note: "other" was over 6% this month.
69.09 Superhero Amazing X Men 3
7.27 Sci Fi SW Dark Empire II 4
4.30 Fantasy Magic Ice Age 1
3.40 Action Adv Shi 7
2.39 Horror Lady Death II 1
1.57 Manga Ghost in the Shell 2
1.50 Humor Beavis & Butthead 15
.92 Furry Ren & Stimpy 30
.75 Reality Based Love & Rockets 47
.69 Crime Sin City 5
.62 Anthology Dream Corridor 1
.37 Romance Aladdin 8
.27 Western Jonah Hex 3
Non-Super/Action in the Top 100
/ Note: I think I missed a Vertigo or two.
15 Magic Ice Age 1
16 Magic Shadow Mage 1
22 SW Dark Empire II 4
32 SW Tales/Sith 6
38 SW Jabba the Hutt
47 Aliens Predator 1
55 Sin City BFK 5
60 Beavis & Butthead 15
68 Wheel of Worlds 0
74 Primortals 5
78 X Files 3
80 Endless Gallery
82 Mr Hero 5
85 Lost Universe 4
97 MM Power Rangers 5
Top 5 Star System (back) & Graphic Novels (current)
/ Note: Magic &/or STCCG cards would top the
/ Star System list, if they were in stock.
SW Dark Empire Vampirella Bloodshed
Crow Rolling Stones Voodoo Lounge
Lady Death Elvis Comeback
Death of Superman Alice Cooper Compleat
Batman Dracula Carl Barks Library 37
Top Book Overstreet Price Guide 25
Top Cards STNG Season II
Top Game STNG CD Game
Top Magazine Wizard 44
Ray Rooney
>merchandise. Diamond & Capitol City won't *have* the Marvel stuff to
>offset any discounts!
That was the point. They are going to have to look to other areas to save
money. That means cutting luxuries like slow-selling or risky titles (or ones
they personally don't like).
That starts a vicious cycle:
Shop drops titles, loses some customers = less income.
Shop responds by reducing amount of each title stocked = customers who come up
short = more lost customers/income.
Repeat until out of business.
Now, a savvy retailer can avoid that but how many really good businessmen run
or manage comic shops? Many are Marvel zombies.
Most are going to "play safe" and stick with superheroes and a few proven
alternates when times get tough. Remember what it was like after the B&W
bust? Shops wouldn't order titles they knew sold (like Albedo) out of fear
of getting stuck with unsold copies and losing their money. We could be
headed back to that if they panic.
>As an aside, this would be a boon for AP's planned indie-only
>distribution plan, as well as certain small-press-only distributors, such
>as Last Gasp and Mailbox Books, because they'd be affected *less* by the
>Marvel pullout than Capitol City and Diamond, which *rely* on the
>Marvel/Malibu orders to survive....
Don't bet on it. Mailbox, et al, will have precious little to sell if volume
drops even slightly from current levels. Most furry titles are barely getting
by and will quickly get cancelled if their distributor volume falls.
The hope is that the distributors will now see it in their best interest to
start pushing some of this strange stuff they've been looking down their
noses at.
Ed Zolna called me last night and we'll be getting together tonight for a
bunch of stuff. This _could_ be a golden opportunity or a major hit. It's
just too soon to say.
>The biggest loser in all of this, surprisingly, is DC, which is very weak
>to begin with, and may become the impetus for Time-Warner to shut down DC
>altogether. (TW's support for DC has been very weak, and have been
>nowhere near the industry-aggresiveness of Marvel/Image...)
TW makes out better off of DC than Marvel does off their stuff. How?
Licensing.
Films like Batman, shows like Lois & Clark, and even things like Underoos pour
money into their coffers. As long as the characters have public recognition
value they make money. DC isn't going away any time soon.
I'd worry more about them doing something aggressive than closing DC. It's
still a very healthy, if indirect, cash-cow.
John Martin Karakash
A very savvy comic retailer friend of mine had the
following observations on the situation:
a) The whole procedure might be ruled illegal as
an attempt to set up a monopoly.
b) This is a very cheesy attempt, not just to
force out other publishers, but to have an excuse to
lower discounts. They will be the only game in town. And
if you don't sell Marvel, you are out of business.
c) DC and the smaller publishers may band
together to form a rival to the Marvel(tm) Juggernaut(tm).
d) Several retailers in our town are already
talking about forming a 'buying consortium' to maintain
their power and discounts when ordering. Assuming
Marvel isn't stopped legally.
When you get down to it, the ultimate loser will
be the buyers. And, if unchecked, the wreckage of the
other companies and retailers will be a sad thing. I
am canceling ALL marvel comics that I currently buy and
I will no longer buy any of their products. Ever.
-john-
--
Karl Meyers
Karakash) writes:
> When you get down to it, the ultimate loser will
>be the buyers. And, if unchecked, the wreckage of the
>other companies and retailers will be a sad thing. I
>am canceling ALL marvel comics that I currently buy and
>I will no longer buy any of their products. Ever.
>
This is the most effective way that those of us out here can show our
opposition...not buy Marvel comics (or Malibu, for that matter).
Unfortunately, the furry crowd doesn't buy that many Marvels anyway, so
there wouldn't be that much of an effect. That, and we're outnumbered
by the Marvel Zombies. (ACK!)
The small press companies (furry and non) need to come together and work
together if they're going to survive this. (Something tells me if this
had happened during the B&W Boom in the '80's - cooperation with other
small press companies - it wouldn't have crashed as badly. Then again,
I've been wrong before. :)
KFM!
--- Sig Under Construction ---
ATTENTION! Karl F. Meyers is now at kme...@ix.netcom.com
The "kme...@delphi.com" address will be going away
shortly...
CMelvi4813
monopoly.
I don't think it's very likely. Comic distribution is regarded as a
very small part of book and magazine distribution, and will certainly be
considered as such by the legal departments. Even if every current comic
distributor were bought out by Marvel, there would still be other
-potential- outlets for the publishers to go, whether it be likely or not.
With this in mind, the courts may never even consider this as a case of
monopoly.
> c) DC and the smaller publishers may band together to form a rival to
the Marvel(tm) Juggernaut(tm).
As I understand, such talks are now going on, but no indication just
yet as to what will indeed happen.
=Chuck Melville= (E-mail for MU Press/AEON
Editor, MU Press can also be sent to
cmelvi4813 E.V...@GENIE.GEIS.COM;
fan-mail, orders, etc.)
Todd VerBeek, GWM
>Scott Alan Malcomson (hors...@indirect.com) wrote:
>>If writing being bad mattered, the superhero genre would've gone down the
>>toilet years ago. As for artwork, well, pay some of these people in
>>furfandom to do it full time and you'll get improvement.
>Gee, is that all you have to do? Just pay someone a lot and they'll become
>a good artist? Silly old me. I always thought that if you like art and
>work hard enough at it, you can become a good artist. And if you become
>a good enough artist, THEN you get the big paychecks. Silly old me...
If you'd care to read a little more closely, you'll notice the phrase
"full time" in that sentence. If you pay someone enough that they can
concentrate on their art (rather than holding down a day job), their art
can improve dramatically.
Cheers, Todd
"Yin and Yang. Chaos and Order. Smooth and Crunchy."
Watch for the upcoming vote on the rec.arts.comics reorg (phase I)
John Martin Karakash
|>If this comes to pass, then it's likely that the smaller distributors like
|>Friendly Frank's will fill in any holes left by larger indies, since I don't
|>think these smaller distibutors have ever relied that much on books by the
|>"big two" producers. Regardless, producers (i.e., the companies, artists,
|>writers) are going to have to work a lot harder. Bad indie comic book art
|>and writing, "furry" stuff in particular, probably won't survive another
|>market contraction. It might mean fewer titles in the short run, but if it
|>means _better_ titles then it might be a good thing.
The market contraction has left furry comics relatively
unscathed (and I do mean RELATIVELY), because it has a core of
readers to support it. But with this move by marvel, it means
even MORE of the small retailers go out of business. It's
pretty much the case that you have to sell marvel to be in the
comic business. And now there'll be no competition to keep
rates down. So bye-bye profit margin, hello bankruptcy! When
your order is split among several distributors, your discount
goes down again because of lower volume.
-john-
--
John Martin Karakash
|>Well, not believing everything I hear on the net (or even much of it) I
|>went to my favorite comic shop in Houston (Phoenix Comics and Games) to
|>pick up whatever fell into my folder of furry stuff (Best of Furrlough
|>and Red Shetland 8 this week) and to ask the manager what she thought of
|>what Marvel was doing, and what would eventually happen to her and the
|>books she carries. She currently carries an amazing selection of indies,
|>and does not ever mark up the price on back issues. She told me Marvel
|>books are a mere 30% of her total business, and that to compensate for
|>having to buy less Marvel books from the new juggernaut, she would most
|>probably stop giving discounts on Marvel books, and start encouraging
|>more of her clientelle to check out the Independent books, thus
|>increasing (hopefully) the percentage of her business which is
|>Non-Marvel. I was encouraged to hear this, to say the least :)
She (and you) are lucky. Most stores live and die by their
Mainstream accounts (of which marvel is the biggest chunk). Many,
many stores are going out of business. The area I live in is VERY
lucky to have a stable base of comic buyers (several large colleges
around), and so no more stores than usual have gone under; but this
is very unusual. A retailer friend of mine likens it to a dance
contest. The last people on their feet are the winners... but will
it be worth it to them? How much money did they lose to stay in
the game? The marvel thing is just one more blow and the words
'market contraction' will take on a whole new meaning if marvel
isn't stopped.
-john-
--
Scott Alan Malcomson
: Scott Alan Malcomson (hors...@indirect.com) wrote:
: >Unfortunately, this does not take into effect certain industry idiosyncracies
: >such as shelf space limitations, distributor favoritism, and the general
: >nature of the direct market with its publisher --> distributor --> dealer
: >--> customer arrangement.
: Y'know, it always amazes me how its always everything _else_ to blame for
: the demise of alternate comics: Publishers, distributors, sinister comic
: book monopolies.
And it further amazes me how quick you are to assume that the world of
capitalism is ruled by textbook philosophies. If you don't think that
politics and favoritism have just as much to do with the state of the
comic market as do the laws of supply and demand, I suggest you actually
take a look around and see who's doing what when and how.
: I suppose it's heretical to suggest that the reason most
: alternate books fail is because they don't appeal to a broad audience?
I suppose it's pointless to mention to you that the common notion of what
comics *are* is still "fights-in-tights", and that while this mentality
is eroding, it remains true that most adults consider comic books to be
universally "kiddie fare"? That mentality can only be broken by
advertising, and indies have barely enough to put out the print runs, let
alone market them. The "broad audience" is there...the very fact that
one-third of all comic titles survive on word-of-mouth alone proves this.
: concept of direct-market distribution has only been with us for about 15
: years or so. It arose because there was a demand for such a system. If
: there is a sufficient demand for it, it will continue.
What makes you think I'm predicting the end of the direct market? Hardly...
demand for it remains high. However, it remains true that if Ford
tomorrow sold out to Chevrolet, all the demand in the world wouldn't
bring Fords back. Likewise, if the major distributors are bought out or
strike exclusivity deals with major publishers, the smaller fry will
likely be left to deal with less reliable distributors with a smaller
distribution network. That will directly cut into sales as visibility in
shops drops.
I'm curious...just how much do you know about economics? You seem
far too content to substitute generalized laws for localized specifics.
This is similar to saying that the speed limit is universally obeyed
because it's the law, without taking into effect the fact that without an
actual enforcement body nearby the law is usually ignored altogether.
: I could never get those companies straight. I do remember the fuss Buddy
: Saunders kicked up a few years ago. Wasn't he involved in trying to buy
: out Diamond and/or CC?
Possibly, but that never went through.
: >If writing being bad mattered, the superhero genre would've gone down the
: >toilet years ago. As for artwork, well, pay some of these people in
: >furfandom to do it full time and you'll get improvement.
: Gee, is that all you have to do? Just pay someone a lot and they'll become
: a good artist?
One would think that, given your evident level of knowledge in economics,
you'd be familiar with the phrase: "You get what you pay for".
: I always thought that if you like art and
: work hard enough at it, you can become a good artist. And if you become
: a good enough artist, THEN you get the big paychecks. Silly old me...
Yes, that is a rather silly notion, I agree. I've seen plenty of crud
hanging in art galleries that sells for more than mint copies of the
early X-Men set. Watercolors that would get sneers at the CF artshow for
crudity and lack of style routinely sell in the hundreds. Of course,
that's "fine" art for you. Takes no skill, it just takes BS and a contact
with someone "on the inside".
As to comic-book artists, however, there ain't nobody who starts
off at, say, Marvel, with a six-digit income. Doesn't matter how damned
good they are, they start in the trenches, and usually their work ISN'T
as good as what you find in, say, Furrlough. Before Todd MacFarlane was
TODD MACFARLANE, he was todd macfarlane, that guy who did work on things
like Scout (if I recall correctly). He drew The Marvel Way, and while he
seemed to have a good handle on it to start it wasn't fantastic.
These people you so readily compare furfandom to held jobs at
Marvel and DC for YEARS, steadily improving, before they became worth
more than a minimum-wage check to Marvel or DC. Furry artists have no
such support during the "improvement" phase, and have to muck along doing
it in their spare time. Furry work doesn't support them even when they
*do* get good enough thanks to the low visibility of furfandom.
Like I said before...you get what you pay for. Pay 'em something
worthwhile and you'll see improvement --- and even *without* that pay,
there're some damnfine furry artists who I would indeed compare to the
likes of Marvel's Top Five. Face it: when Terrie Smith's centaur anatomy
is more believable than MacFarlane's Spawn anatomy, I'd say that goes a
helluva long way. Perhaps it's the fact that Marvel's art is aimed at
kiddies and furry art is not that has you hung up on it.
: Superhero books, bad as they are, are usually better-written and certainly
: better drawn than most indie books--_all_ indies, and not just "furry"
: comics.
BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAAAAA! Show me the superhero version of "Maus"! Show me
the superhero version of "Albedo" or "Xanadu"! Show me ONE X-Men comic
whose plot isn't merely an excuse for a string of fight scenes!
BETTER-WRITTEN?! I'm dyin' here! -:D
As for artwork, I've *SEEN* Spiderman 2099 and the rest of that
godforsaken lot, and thank you but I much prefer Joe Rosales'
"Wildlifers". More LIFE to them, for one thing, and even with the fur
they're more believably drawn as individuals. Donna Barr's "Desert Peach"
and "Stinz" are both superior in terms of story, anatomy, and
believability than anything you care to pick out of the entire Image line.
Pfaugh. Didn't you know that Marvel's demographics only allow for
the 6-17 age group? That's who they WRITE and DRAW for, and for me that's
a decade past. I'm sorry to hear that you consider such juvenile material
fit for mature eyes.
: The few successful indie books are those that have superior art
: (rare) or superior writing (more common).
Once again, you tie success directly to quality and attempt to eliminate
any grey areas that disagree with your theories. I might remind you that
"Cerebus", one of the hottest indies around (with sales rivalling or
beating 25% of Marvel's line), got jack for sales until it nearly hit
Issue #100. It had to make the triple digits for the industry mags to
turn around and say, "Waitaminnit --- aren't you dead yet? No? Hey,
that's news!"
"Bone" struggled along for years, trying to get syndicated as a
strip, before Jeff Smith did it as an indie...and six issues went by with
steadily slumping sales. Then "Bone" was touted in the Previews
section of "Cerebus" and *BAM*, people knew about it. They checked it
out en masse. They liked it en masse. It suddenly sold en masse.
Likewise, books like "THB", "Very Vicky", and "A Distant Soil"
all had low sales before the 20,000 readers of "Cerebus" saw them and
tried them out or recommended them to their friends. Which just goes to
show that if people *know* it's out there they may try it. If they don't,
they can't, and it won't sell. Lack of sales in the face of a lack of
advertising is NO indication of a book's merit or lack thereof.
: few and far between. But if art is all that matters, then you'll have to
: agree that indies, especially "furry" indies, have a long way to go.
Actually, you're the one saying that only art and story matter. I've
always held that you can possess the Mona Lisa and get absolutely nothing
for it if no one knows you have it. Insofar as "furry" books being
inferior to "other" indies...? That's a chuckle. "THB" and "Very Vicky"
are hot right now, and they have abysmal artwork compared to an average
issue of "Furrlough". It's scratchy, ill-defined, etcetera. Stuff like
"Buffalo Wings" and "Zaibatsu Tears" absolutely blows them out of the water.
However, neither "Wild Life" nor "Shanda the Panda" have ever
been touted in the Comics Journal or even the back pages of "Cerebus",
have they? And advertising is next to nil. No, bearing that in mind, I'm
not surprised that furry books aren't selling.
: >What's most likely to happen is that stores kowtow to Marvel's demands
: >and stop carrying indies at all rather than handle multiple accounts. The
: >bigger, more affluent stores can avoid that; the mom & pops can't. So
: >much for your theories of a tighter market making for better material.
: Cue the evil empire music!
Cue the "Cynicism as Replacement for Rational Thought" music!
: Marvel: "Soon we will
: have all these mom and pop stores in our grasp!"
I take it you believe the Marvel/HW move has something else in mind...?
Please, espouse your alternate theory.
: Retailers: "The more you
: tighten your fist, the more stores will slip through your fingers!"
Rephrase that to replace "through your fingers" with "out of the market",
and you may have something there.
: Heh, like I said before: Welcome to the wonderful world of Capitalism!
Too bad you seem to be ignoring its finer points.
: It's pretty sad when someone like me has more faith in the system than
: you.
From what you've posted so far, I don't believe you have a functioning
understanding of the system.
---LCD
Timothy D Fay
>>Scott Alan Malcomson (hors...@indirect.com) wrote:
>>>If writing being bad mattered, the superhero genre would've gone down the
>>>toilet years ago. As for artwork, well, pay some of these people in
>>>furfandom to do it full time and you'll get improvement.
>>Gee, is that all you have to do? Just pay someone a lot and they'll become
>>a good artist? Silly old me. I always thought that if you like art and
>>work hard enough at it, you can become a good artist. And if you become
>>a good enough artist, THEN you get the big paychecks. Silly old me...
>If you'd care to read a little more closely, you'll notice the phrase
>"full time" in that sentence. If you pay someone enough that they can
>concentrate on their art (rather than holding down a day job), their art
>can improve dramatically.
Yeah, and if you paid me to stay in bed all day I'd probably be the best
napper in the universe. But I don't think you can turn someone into a
good artist just by throwing money at them. It's not impossible, just
very unlikely. Especially since few people ever get rich or even find
steady work drawing comics. For those who do, it is usually because they
have talent and/or they love to draw (though they rarely complain about
getting paid for it. :) ).
--
Reply to: fayx...@maroon.tc.umn.edu
-- http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m279/fayxx001 --
"My mental facilities are TWICE what yours are -- you pea brain!"
-Percival McLeach
Chris Sutor
: Marvel's standard of art
: is passable-to-poor.
Yes, yes- let's not forget good old what's his name- that idiot who
created X-Factor... the one in the sneaker adverts...
When I was in the Kubert School, we used to round up copies of X-Factor
and go throuhg them one panel at a time to find all the flubs. it was
better than a game... We'd find such things as people with two left
hands, two left feet, missing arms, costumes that re-arrange themselves
from panel to panel- square belt buckle in panel one, round in panel two-
strap over left shoulder moves to right one, etc..- Not to mention that
dragon character who'd only have his wings drawn on in half the panels.
People who changes faces from panel to panel, looking nothing alike- we
even found a scene where one of the characters had never been inked in-
and he had a word baloon in that panel!
And this, was frm their *star* artist at the time... their big-shot who
was giving them their image at that point.. (and whose name I still can't
remember- which is funny in itself)
: But much to your credit, Timothy, your previous comment is dead on
: the money. You're absolutely right that people will get their indie
: comics...But unfortunately, if things get rough on the indies, less
: writers and artists will work on indie comics, migrating instead to the
: carbon-copy companies like Marvel, DC, and (almost entirely) Image,
: where their work will be molded to appeal to the lowest common
: denominator. (Please, people, don't give me any flack about how this
: will shake out the 'undedicated' indie writers/artists. It ain't a
: religion or an ideology. Someone who is just dedicated enough to start
: and maintain an indie comic but drops out when a bigger company *squeezes*
: his/her market may make a _much_ better comic than the scribbler with
: a complete lack of writing talent who will keep producing come hell,
: high water, or eating PB&J 3 meals a day.)
Which brings me to my next point- why I got expelled from the Kubert
School halfway thru my third year... The official word is that I skipped
too many days. That's just there to look good on the books tho. During
the third and final year of the school, they do a sweep of their
soon-to-graduate-class, and begin to concentrate on anyone who looks out
of place...
You see, they have this long-standing tradition, that all their graduates
go immediately to significant positions within Marvel.... and they
trumpet this high and low.
They do this by weeding out anyone who doesn't fit the mold. Since I had
drawn furry characters primarily, and had a cutesy cartoony style- which
I got ribbed about, harassed about, and treated like inferior for during
my time their- I was weeded out on a technicallity. I know this, because
I was talking with two other students just before I left, and the class
had been privy to a short speech the day after I was kicked out- and how
the number of days I had been absent for, was almost doubled at the point
by one of the students who was graduating. (guess which style he drew in...)
There is an undercurrent when you're dealing with Marvel, and it's ilk-
do it their way, or not at all...
: Wondering if anyone read this far ;) and buzzing merrily,
Ohmigod! There's a bee on your shoulder! AAA!! AA!! oh... that's you.
quiddit.
--
****************************************************************************
* ____________ ____________ __________ __________ _____ ________ *
* | _______| | __ | | __ \ / __ | | | |__ ___| *
* | | | | | | | |__| / / /__| | | | | | *
* | | | | | | | __ \ | ____ | | | | | *
* | |______ | |__| | | |__| | | | | | | |_____ | | *
* |__________| |__________| |__________| |___| |___| |_________| |__| *
* *
*****LEARN FROM THE PAST, LIVE FOR THE PRESENT, DREAM FOR THE FUTURE********
Karl Meyers
Fay) writes:
>Y'know, it always amazes me how its always everything _else_ to blame
>for the demise of alternate comics: Publishers, distributors, sinister
>comic book monopolies. I suppose it's heretical to suggest that the
>reason most alternate books fail is because they don't appeal to a
>broad audience?
I think what the point was there was that you sort of have to get the
books to said "broad audience" before it can either succeed or fail.
Without the proper pipelines to get stuff out, you tend to either stay
underground with only marginal support, or you flop outright.
>The few successful indie books are those that have superior art
>(rare) or superior writing (more common). However, those books are
>pretty few and far between. But if art is all that matters, then
>you'll have to agree that indies, especially "furry" indies, have a
>long way to go.
There is poor artwork in most independent comics, true; however, I
cannot see why you must continually single out anthropomorphic titles on
a regular basis. If you have a bias against a genre, how in the world
do you expect to see any improvement? After all, you're so deadset
against these "disgusting, vile furry comics" that something the quality
of a XANADU or a ALBEDO, or even newer titles like KATMANDU or TALL
TAILS gets past you.
There's also the point that you are a funny animal artist. Furries
*are* funny animals. If you think the genre is so bad, what are you
doing to improve it, besides starting circular arguments on the USENET?
>But if the System fails, come up with another system! That's what
>happened 15 years ago when independent distributors were born. If
>people _really_ want indie comics, they'll find a way to get them. In
>the meantime, it wouldn't hurt the artists and writers to come up with
>books that people might actually want to read.
That's strange...I thought many of the writers and artists on here were
doing just that. Amazing how some people assume everyone else's likes
and dislikes should be just like theirs.
As far as distribution goes, there has always been a way, mainstream or
underground. There are too many people in furry fandom for the loss of
a distribution point to prevent the circulation of stories and comics.
KFM!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Karl F. Meyers -- Middleburg, Florida kme...@ix.netcom.com
Writer of Furry Stuff/Collector of Same ^^^ NEW ADDRESS ^^^
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world,
Than the pride that divides when a colourful rag is unfurled."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
CMelvi4813
guy who did work on things like Scout (if I recall correctly).
You don't. That was Tim Truman. MacFarlane originally worked for DC
where he pencilled INFINITY INC.
Steve Lieber
<<Which brings me to my next point- why I got expelled from the Kubert
School halfway thru my third year... The official word is that I skipped
too many days. That's just there to look good on the books tho. During
the third and final year of the school, they do a sweep of their
soon-to-graduate-class, and begin to concentrate on anyone who looks out
of place...
You see, they have this long-standing tradition, that all their graduates
go immediately to significant positions within Marvel.... and they
trumpet this high and low.
They do this by weeding out anyone who doesn't fit the mold.>>
This is absolut bullshit. I graduated the Kubert School in 1990 and my class
included people like Ted Couldron, thw artist of Fantagraphics' "Butt Biscuit."
Ted wouldn't draw in the Marvel style if you put a gun to his head, but
Kubert even singled him out at graduation as "one of our most promising students." I had drawn maybe 12 pages of spandex stuff while I was there, and the
reaction from most mainstream publishers was that I didn't belong in superhero
books. Several other class-mates of mine did humor stuff pretty much exclusively
there, and others concentrated on painting or commercial illustration. While a
number of us have done mainstream work, there was no pressure whatsoever to
conform to that manner, and no one was "concentrated on" because they looked
out of place. My classmates have painted book and magazine covers, storyboarded
movies and television programs, designed puppets, created corporate newsletters,
worked for advertising firms, produced editorial cartoons, exhibited their fine art at galleries, worked in underground and self published comics, and, yes
pencilled, inked, lettered and colored stuff for the mainstream.
I don't know why they kicked you out, but the reason you give doesn't hold.
Abhay Khosla
> Yeah, and if you paid me to stay in bed all day I'd probably be the best
> napper in the universe. But I don't think you can turn someone into a
> good artist just by throwing money at them. It's not impossible, just
> very unlikely. Especially since few people ever get rich or even find
> steady work drawing comics. For those who do, it is usually because they
> have talent and/or they love to draw (though they rarely complain about
> getting paid for it. :) ).
They'll buy it if it has detail and looks like Jim Lee.
There are many, many GOOD artists working in comics. Some DO work in
independants. Please explain Brian Bolland. He does a couple covers for
mainstream DC books, Wonder Woman comes to mind- lots of detail, very
pretty looking. Have you ever seen his work for Negative Burn, a one
page bit called Mr. Mammoulian? I think its great, incidentally, but it
doesn't look like the same guy. Same artist. Same thing with Phil
Hester, and I can easily say his Negative Burn stuff is BETTER.
The mainstream has several top notch artists. Absolutely top-notch. So
do non-mainstream books. (Check out Scud, the Hernandez Bros.- in
order as they occur to me, sorry L&R fans- Jeff Smith's Bone, Dave
Sim. Steve Bissette. Rick Vietch.See what people who've been reading
comics for years and years
think and give them a shot. Maybe they know something...(of course
you'll end up a Legion addict, but I'm not bitter)...) If you can only
accept one style, thats too bad, but don't call people whose art
you can't appreciate bad artists. That just seems insensitive.
-Abhay
akh...@umich.edu
Steve Arlow
D.M. "Quozl" Falk <qu...@netcom.com> wrote:
>What does this mean to the average comic-buying Furry fan? It'll be even
>*harder* to get yer AP's and MU's, once this goes into effect! :(
Assuming AP and MU stay in business, that is. <no smiley>
--
"Your sister should learn to be more friendly... | Steve Arlow, Yorick Software
Get a tail, bounce around more... | 39336 Polo Club Dr. #103
And a couple of floppy ears wouldn't hurt..." | Farmington Hills, MI 48335
-- "Willy" (Joe Martin) | http://www.msen.com/~yorick
zombie
Sutor) wrote:
> Yes, yes- let's not forget good old what's his name- that idiot who
> created X-Factor...
? You mean X-Force?
> the one in the sneaker adverts...
? You mean Levi 501s?
> When I was in the Kubert School, we used to round up copies of X-Factor
> and go throuhg them one panel at a time to find all the flubs. it was
> better than a game...
[...]
> They do this by weeding out anyone who doesn't fit the mold. Since I had
> drawn furry characters primarily, and had a cutesy cartoony style- which
> I got ribbed about, harassed about, and treated like inferior for during
> my time their-
People made fun of your art? Sorta like you did with Liefeld above? (I
can't believe I am defending him) And why would they have a problem with
cartoony style? Isn't one of their degrees in animation?
> There is an undercurrent when you're dealing with Marvel, and it's ilk-
> do it their way, or not at all...
What are you talking about? I just read a fairly good article on the
school in Wizard, and it mentioned nothing about it being a Marvel
school. In fact, I got the impression that it was owned by Kubert.
zombie
--
# Lois & Clark: http://www.creacon.com/LNC/index.html #
# The Mutant Page: http://quercas.santarosa.edu/x #
# Comics (Very Cool): http://www.digimark.net/wraith/comix.html #
# zom...@netcom.com # E.VEIT on GEnie # zom...@redeye.ebay.sun.com #
Brian Henderson
References: <D5Ivw...@indirect.com> <1.21329.14...@dscmail.com>
SM> I suppose it's pointless to mention to you that the common notion of
SM> what comics *are* is still "fights-in-tights", and that while this
SM> mentality is eroding, it remains true that most adults consider
SM> comic books to be universally "kiddie fare"? That mentality can only
SM> be broken by advertising, and indies have barely enough to put out
SM> the print runs, let alone market them. The "broad audience" is
SM> there...the very fact that one-third of all comic titles survive on
SM> word-of-mouth alone proves this.
That might be the common notion, and it is frustrating to those few indies
that try to produce more adult (read mature, not pornographic, which seems to
be the trend) fare. I think the problem is that the vast majority of comic
buyers today *ARE* in the 9-17 year bracket and the furry market simply
doesn't recognize this. Where are the "superhero" furry comics? Where are
the things that would appeal to young adults? Marvel and DC have recognized
where the market lies and work into it. Why do furry companies not do the
same thing?
SM> One would think that, given your evident level of knowledge in
SM> economics, you'd be familiar with the phrase: "You get what you pay
SM> for".
True, but you have to have it before you get paid for it. What you've been
saying is that we should pay so-so artists in the hopes that they'll get
better when this is an absolutely suicidal business practice. If we find
furry comic artists that can do the same level of work as the high-paid Marvel
and DC artists and crank out the same amount of work consistently, we'll start
seeing them getting job offers.
SM> As to comic-book artists, however, there ain't nobody who starts off
SM> at, say, Marvel, with a six-digit income. Doesn't matter how damned
SM> good they are, they start in the trenches, and usually their work
SM> ISN'T as good as what you find in, say, Furrlough. Before Todd
SM> MacFarlane was TODD MACFARLANE, he was todd macfarlane, that guy who
SM> did work on things like Scout (if I recall correctly). He drew The
SM> Marvel Way, and while he seemed to have a good handle on it to start
SM> it wasn't fantastic.
Your point? I'm sure Terrie Smith wasn't fantastic the first time she picked
up a pencil either. Like in any job, you start at the bottom. The mainstream
companies have no problem getting new people as they need them, why can't
furry artists go through the same rigamarole as other artists? I don't think
any of the "big names" in Marvel starved to death on their way up, did they?
SM> These people you so readily compare furfandom to held jobs at Marvel
SM> and DC for YEARS, steadily improving, before they became worth more
SM> than a minimum-wage check to Marvel or DC. Furry artists have no
SM> such support during the "improvement" phase, and have to muck along
SM> doing it in their spare time. Furry work doesn't support them even
SM> when they *do* get good enough thanks to the low visibility of
SM> furfandom.
Then maybe that's the problem with "furry" artists. If you spend your time
doing something that no one will pay you for, refusing to do work that is
freely available, then you have no room to complain because you can't get your
break. Furry artists haven't put in their dues, they don't *DESERVE* the kind
of checks that Marvel or DC artists get. They haven't earned it. I'm sure
Todd MacFairlane's dream wasn't penciling Scout or whatever, but you don't
always get to do what you want right out of the gate. Just a few years later,
however, look at him. He gets to do what he wants, he has his own toy
company, his own comic company, and gets the big bucks. Too many furry
artists and comic companies want to skip all the early steps and move right
into the big bucks.
SM> Pfaugh. Didn't you know that Marvel's demographics only allow for
SM> the 6-17 age group? That's who they WRITE and DRAW for, and for me
SM> that's a decade past. I'm sorry to hear that you consider such
SM> juvenile material fit for mature eyes.
They identified the market and pursued it. All you are doing is complaining
that no market exists where furry comics have decided to go. Talk about
stupid business practices.
SM> However, neither "Wild Life" nor "Shanda the Panda" have ever been
SM> touted in the Comics Journal or even the back pages of "Cerebus",
SM> have they? And advertising is next to nil. No, bearing that in mind,
SM> I'm not surprised that furry books aren't selling.
Well guess what? Maybe Antarctic or Mu needs to... >GASP< start selling
comics to people who actually *WANT* them! You know, swallow their
questionable pride and create something for a mass audience until they *HAVE*
the money to do some marketing and advertising? They'll never get anywhere
until they actually have an audience that can buy 10,000 copies of whatever
they put out, and because they don't advertise, and produce comics for a tiny
minority of comic buyers, that isn't going to happen, is it?
It just amazes me that furry companies and artists can sit there, complain
about not having enough money, and then produce products that are intended to
sell to few, if any consumers. What do they want? A medal? A government
grant? If your current product mix doesn't produce enough revenue... *CHANGE
IT!* That is the basis of economics: supply and demand. There simply isn't
enough demand for their product.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++==========================================
+ Brian Henderson == Internet: Brian.H...@ectech.com ==
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++== RIME: #687 FIDO: Changing ==
+ Don't take life too ==========================================
+ seriously, it's not == Standard Disclaimers Apply ==
+ permanent! == As if anyone cares. ==
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++==========================================
... I think I heard something hit the fan.
---
* *
* RM 1.3 * Eval Day 14 *
Robert Fernandez (ENG)
>
>Superhero books, bad as they are, are usually better-written and certainly
>better drawn than most indie books--_all_ indies, and not just "furry"
>comics.
Once upon a time, perhaps. Once upon a time.
Robert Fernandez rfer...@chuma.cas.usf.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
| Stick Figures | Two Worlds Publishing |
| comic books and stuff | 3837 Northdale Blvd. #225 |
| looking for readers like you | Tampa, FL 33624 |
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"If I am the Devil's child, I will live then from the Devil."
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
D.M. Quozl Falk
: In article <3k4r5b$b...@epx.cis.umn.edu> fayx...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Timothy D Fay) writes:
: >
: >Superhero books, bad as they are, are usually better-written and certainly
: >better drawn than most indie books--_all_ indies, and not just "furry"
: >comics.
: Once upon a time, perhaps. Once upon a time.
If they were as well written as Elementals or Zot!, maybe.. But superhero
comics of this calibre are very rare these days... And these were from
indi companies... Hell, I'll put E=Man up against the crap of Marvel
*any* day....
And I hate superheroes.
Brian Henderson
References: <3k4r5b$b...@epx.cis.umn.edu> <1.21329.14...@dscmail.com>
TF> Y'know, it always amazes me how its always everything _else_ to
TF> blame for the demise of alternate comics: Publishers, distributors,
TF> sinister comic book monopolies. I suppose it's heretical to suggest
TF> that the reason most alternate books fail is because they don't
TF> appeal to a broad audience?
That's very true. Although it is not the only reason, it is a major reason
why few indies survive. Marvel, DC, Image, etc. all aim their books at a
proven comic market, males between 9-17. That single market makes up the vast
majority of the comic reading population. How many furry comics are aimed at
that market? 0? Hmm...
TF> Superhero books, bad as they are, are usually better-written and
TF> certainly better drawn than most indie books--_all_ indies, and not
TF> just "furry" comics. The few successful indie books are those that
TF> have superior art (rare) or superior writing (more common).
TF> However, those books are pretty few and far between. But if art is
TF> all that matters, then you'll have to agree that indies, especially
TF> "furry" indies, have a long way to go.
I wouldn't say that at all. Most furry comics, and indie comics in general
are much better than anything Marvel or DC has ever dreamed of putting out.
However, Marvel and DC have both the marketing ability and a proven audience
behind them, while indies have neither. Overall, both Marvel and DC suck
rocks as far as intelligent storylines and realistic art are concerned.
TF> But if the System fails, come up with another system! That's what
TF> happened 15 years ago when independent distributors were born. If
TF> people _really_ want indie comics, they'll find a way to get them.
It is time for a better system, but I can't think of one at the moment.
Perhaps you can. I was collecting comics way back when independents first
started and have watched virtually all of the earliest indies go belly up.
That is not something that I would look forward to seeing again.
TF> In the meantime, it wouldn't hurt the artists and writers to come up
TF> with books that people might actually want to read.
I'll agree with you here. If 99.9% of all comic buyers are looking for a
certain type of comic, why are there *NO* furry comics that are aimed at that
market? It seems suicidal to me.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++==========================================
+ Brian Henderson == Internet: Brian.H...@ectech.com ==
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++== RIME: #687 FIDO: Changing ==
+ Don't take life too ==========================================
+ seriously, it's not == Standard Disclaimers Apply ==
+ permanent! == As if anyone cares. ==
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++==========================================
... Keep the faith. I'll take the reason.
---
* *
* RM 1.3 * Eval Day 15 *
Brian Henderson
References: <3kb5ah$7v1$1...@garnet.msen.com> <1.21329.14...@dscmail.com>
SA> Assuming AP and MU stay in business, that is. <no smiley>
And to tell you the truth, I don't think either one deserves to. :(
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++==========================================
+ Brian Henderson == Internet: Brian.H...@ectech.com ==
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++== RIME: #687 FIDO: Changing ==
+ Don't take life too ==========================================
+ seriously, it's not == Standard Disclaimers Apply ==
+ permanent! == As if anyone cares. ==
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++==========================================
... Barney Burgers! Get your red-hot Barney Burgers!
Chris Sutor
: This is absolut bullshit.
: I don't know why they kicked you out, but the reason you give doesn't hold.
Thank you. I don't know what things were like when you graduated, but by
the time I was in third year- hell- are we even talking the same school
here?
Anyway- I never said I did Humor... I did furry. And I was harrassed,
failed, and treated like second class by both teachers and fellow
students. There are other reasons, which I've left out- I guess I should
have filled in the gaps in my story- but thse are of a personal nature,
and I wasn't sure if I was ready to spill them on a national newsgroup-
but hey- I guess I will.
let's start with my class- first off, we'll et past the teachers like Jim
McWeeny- who'd probably sue me if I spoke my mind on him propery in
pblic, and get onto the class as whole...Every class has one or two core
students who form the backbone of the class... In our class this came
down to a skinhead, nazi, devil-worshipper type who spent his days
filling his panels with diseased feotuses and telling 'fag' jokes in a
loud voice in back of the class. (all of which were laughed at long and
loud by everyone in earshot....except myself.)
I, you see- am gay. And aparrently someone found out. So, right away,
there was a huge division between myself and everyone else... PRojects in
the class took on a decidedly homophobic tone... one student creating and
*having put up in the hallway* a comic clled 'gusto the gay clown'- a
three-page study in ilent harrassment..
LEt's also note that in the school, a number of the teachers grade your
work based on what all the other students think- and while they fawned
over each other's scratchings, nothing I ever did was good enough..
I also noted shortly thereafter, that the teachers had begun to avoid me
as well- taking time talking to and working with everyone, except myself-
Add to this, that I was the only one in the class *not* creating gore or
superheroes... Add to this, like I pointed out, that a graduated
student, who got his certiificate, in my class- had Twice as many days
absent as I did....
What it all boils down to is that I was removed from the school for being
entirely too 'different' from the usual kind they get in and out- the
place was like a locker room.. lots of macho swaggering and fart jokes.
No wonder the only female to enroll in the school during my time there,
bailled out twout halfway thru her second year because she was fed up..
I don't deny there is talent in the school- or that the teachers, *some*
of them.. good ones like Mike Chen, will bend over backwards to spt and
award talent and creativity... however- they're a cookiecutter
institution, interested in one type of student...
Ron Asbestos Dippold
>why few indies survive. Marvel, DC, Image, etc. all aim their books at a
>proven comic market, males between 9-17. That single market makes up the vast
>majority of the comic reading population. How many furry comics are aimed at
>that market? 0? Hmm...
Not quite... Among others, Mike Grell's Bar Sinister and Shaman's
Tears from Image are undeniably furry, and are aimed right at that
audience.
--
Do not underestimate the power of the Force.
Larraine Lage
I've been sitting through this whole "Marvel Does It!" debate without
saying a word but this time it's just gotten a bit on my nerves. Being a
self publisher for years, I understand the trials and tribulations of
trying to gain acceptance in the comic book industry, especially with a
furry title, but believe me, I can honestly say it has absolutely nothing
to do with the fact that I am putting something out that only a small
percentage of people want to read. Just because males between 9-17 is a
PROVEN comic book market doesn't mean that it's the ONLY market. Any large
company with stockholders to feed will go with the proven road, because
there is no monetary risk involved. They know that putting out X-DRECK will
sell and keep corporate pockets stuffed and happy.
If superheroes are the only way for independents to survive, then how do
you explain the succsesses of DC's VERTIGO line, USAGI YOJIMBO, CEREBUS,
BONE, A DISTANT SOIL, WANDERING STAR, HEPCATS (when it decides to come
out), NINJA HIGH SCHOOL, and on and on. The success of these books only
prove that there are other markets to tap into but this is where everyone's
problem's begin, and this I know because I have had (and still do) to face
these head on.
1) Most independents do not have the capital to buy advertising, much less
print a book. This is the single most reason as to why most comics fall
into obscurity. A single page B+W ad in either ADVANCE (Capital City's
book) or PREVIEWS (Diamond's book) is $800.00. What publisher starting out
has that type of money to spend? And mind you, that advertising doesn't
even guarantee you sales either. Everyone has seen those phone book sized
catalogs. There are over 30,000 items listed every month. A retailer does
not have the time to sit down and read every single line of copy from every
company. So s/he's probably going to check out the obvious sellers and
whomever has the most striking ads. Although ads don't guarantee anything,
it certainly guarantees you will get noticed by the retailers.
2) Most independents come out too irregularly for comic book stores to even
REMEMBER stocking them. Any comic, regardless of content will aquire a
regular retailer clientel if the comic comes out consistently, whether it
be monthly or bi-monthly. Anything longer than bi-monthly and you're
playing with fire. Only your hard-core fans will wait that long for their
comics, but most do not. Unfortunately, it's a vicious cycle. It takes 3
months for a distributor to process orders and get them back to you. You
cannot publish on a regular schedule unless you are sure you sold enough to
finance printing, especially if you bought advertising. But since you have
to wait 3 months for the first orders to come in, you can't solicit the
second issue because since you have to buy an ad for the second issue, you
don't know whether the first ad has paid for itself and is worth buying
another, so in the end, your book is coming out irregularly whether you
like it or not.
And yes, you DO have to buy ads for your second issue! If you're going
monthly or bi-monthly, retailers are buying your second issue without
really knowing what the first issue looks like. It's like convincing a guy
to put down money for a car without showing him what the car looks like! So
your second issue orders are going to be cut IN HALF just in case the books
turns out to be crappy. The only way to offset this is to buy an ad for
your second issue. Now, if you remember the prices... Youve just spent
$1600.00 without knowing how the first issue did! Who has that type of
money?! So your only choice is to enter the vicious circle and wait about a
year to put out just three issues.
I'm saying that because it takes the printer we're dealing with a MONTH to
print our books! (He's the only one who does print runs as low as 500) A
MONTH on top of the three month waiting! And you wonder why most indy's
don't make it...
3) DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF NOT ONLY YOUR ART BUT EVERYTHING ELSE
ASSOCIATED WITH IT. This has been a pet peeve of mine for years when it
concerns indy comics, especially furry books. A indy book has to be
EXCEPTIONAL to compete with crappy MARVEL books. And that means EVERYTHING.
Nothing dwindles a comic's rep than lousy lettering, inking, coloring,
layout design, etc. Don Thompson (Comics Buyer's Guide) canned WILD LIFE #1
because of lousy lettering. "If the artists spent as much time learning to
letter properly as they did drawing, we would have a decent looking book"
(paraphrased) And that's just lettering! I have dropped many a book because
I couldn't stand to suffer reading the chicken scratch they called dialog
balloons! Don't even get me started on layouts, composition, etc, Jeeze,
I've seen published art look like it's been colored with those 100 marker
sets you can get for 99 cents at the corner store! The more professional
your work looks, the more respect it will get. (Honestly, there are people
publishing who I think shouldn't even think of drawing at all, but I've
seen some of the books that are concidered "hot" not and unfortunately,
talent isn't even a prequisite. But that's another story...)
So stop saying that superheroes are the only thing that will survive in
this market. Because it has been proven time and again that this is simply
not the case. It's like saying that because Romance novels or Mystery
novels sell the most, don't even bother writing science fiction or fantasy.
It's an outrageous statement that has proven to have no basis.
If independents had even an inkling of the resources larger companies have,
you'd see a wider variation of comic books flourishing, even furry comics.
Shit, you'd certainly see more of TALL TAILS that's for sure.
--
rl...@pipeline.com
Karl Meyers
Lage) writes:
>Daphne Here...
Hi! :)
>If superheroes are the only way for independents to survive, then how
>do you explain the succsesses of DC's VERTIGO line, USAGI YOJIMBO,
>CEREBUS, BONE, A DISTANT SOIL, WANDERING STAR, HEPCATS (when it decides
>to come out), NINJA HIGH SCHOOL, and on and on. The success of these
>books only prove that there are other markets to tap into but this is
>where everyone's problem's begin, and this I know because I have had
>(and still do) to face these head on.
I don't think anyone's arguing that these markets aren't out there,
Daphne; I think it's more a problem with getting comics out to said
markets so that people can buy them. You did hit several reasons why
later in your article, in fact (lack of capital for advertising,
infrequent distribution, etc.).
I think that's why this situation with Marvel/Heroes World is somewhat
distressing to those trying to get furry titles out - you not only take
away an avenue of distribution, but now comics shops are forced (in most
cases) to cut down on other non-Marvel titles to afford the new
distribution process - which means, not only your CEREBUS and your BONE
and your Vertigo titles, but stuff like SHANDA and FURRLOUGH and ZU, as
well. (Being the slightly paranoid person that I am, I wouldn't be
surprised if some dealers in more *ahem* repressive areas use this as an
excuse to not order 'alternative' comics, even if individually ordered
from, say, PREVIEWS.)
Oh, and just IMESHO, if you rely too much on "fights in tights", you
wind up with mindless pap over and over. This is a primary reason
'alternative' comics such as the ones you named have been successful;
there are enough people out there who are tired of the same old thing,
and want more variety in their comics. Maybe if the other distributors
put more emphasis on the indys (such as Diamond's "Celebrate
Diversity"), they could make up some lost ground. After all, once you
get past the 9-17 demographic, you have us 18-24 year olds out here (I'm
23... :), who've read this, seen that, NEXT! This is one of the
reasons, for myself, that I got into furry fandom in the first place.
Stop me if I'm rambling; I tend to do that. :)
>3) DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF NOT ONLY YOUR ART BUT EVERYTHING
>ELSE ASSOCIATED WITH IT. This has been a pet peeve of mine for years
>when it concerns indy comics, especially furry books. A indy book has
>to be EXCEPTIONAL to compete with crappy MARVEL books. And that means
>EVERYTHING. Nothing dwindles a comic's rep than lousy lettering,
>inking, coloring, layout design, etc.
Or, for that matter, poor writing. (There's too many comics *period*,
much less furry titles, who rely on "superior" artwork [which, say to
say, ain't all that superior...Liefield springs to mind immediately...]
and little, if any, scripting or plotting.) Being a writer myself
(although of short stories, and not comics...yet :), nothing annoys *me*
more than seeing a lack of coherent storytelling, or plot holes so big
you could drive a Mack truck through them.
Side note (I get distracted easy... :) - I think comics as a whole is
starting to move away from the "artist-as-creative-god" syndrome that
hit about the time Image was formed, towards more of a cooperative role
between writers and artists. (There are artists who can write, of
course, but few who do *both* exceptionally well.) That's good, I
think, since two people can be twice as creative (or can screw up twice
as badly, but that's another story... :) Your milage may vary.
>Don Thompson (Comics Buyer's Guide) canned WILD LIFE #1
>because of lousy lettering...
Just as an aside, I don't think the late Mr. Thompson liked the furry
fandom, period. Outside of a preview of the original (MU) SHANDA #1, I
don't think the CBG ever gave any furry title a good review, save OMAHA
(which, of course, deserves one). I'm not saying all furry titles
should have glowing reviews, but at least highlight the better ones...
It's been a while since I've subscribed to the CBG, though, and that's
because it was turning into more of a DC/Marvel newspaper and price
guide...not so much news on the independents.
On the other paw, I agree with you on the lettering, Daphne; some of the
lettering I've seen has been quite hard to read. On the other, other
paw (look, ma, I'm juggling viewpoints! :), I think a good
hand-lettered dialog balloon looks better than making 'em look like you
drew a balloon and then typed the dialog in (which some titles, most
notable ALBEDO, do regularly). I guess I'm old fashioned that way. :)
> Jeeze, I've seen published art look like it's been colored with those
>100 marker sets you can get for 99 cents at the corner store! The more
>professional your work looks, the more respect it will get.
This is true. Some (not all, of course, but some) colour problems seem
to stem from the *publisher* in question, though; as I recall, Antarctic
Press has had to watch Brenner Publishing in the past to keep them from
mucking up the colours on some of their books. (Of course, I've gotten
negative reactions from AP staffers in regards to making comments on
Brenner's quality in the past, most notably the little bruhaha which
caused Matt High to boycot the FurNet's FUR_MAG echo. But the less said
on that, the better.)
>(Honestly, there are people publishing who I think shouldn't even think
>of drawing at all, but I've seen some of the books that are concidered
>"hot" not and unfortunately, talent isn't even a prequisite. But that's
>another story...)
Freedom of the press, and all that, I guess. (I've always felt that
there are more furry artists with genuine talent on average than in any
other independent genre, but I may be a bit biased. :)
>So stop saying that superheroes are the only thing that will survive in
>this market. Because it has been proven time and again that this is
>simply not the case. It's like saying that because Romance novels or
>Mystery novels sell the most, don't even bother writing science fiction
>or fantasy. It's an outrageous statement that has proven to have no
>basis.
Supply is controlled by demand. Of course, you have to make sure those
who do the demanding know the supply is out there, but once you do that,
there's a demand for most anything in comics. As McCloud said in
UNDERSTANDING COMICS, the comics can cover any number of genres; it's
not just super-heroes anymore. Too bad the Marvel Zombies out there
can't get that through their heads.
>If independents had even an inkling of the resources larger companies
>have, you'd see a wider variation of comic books flourishing, even
>furry comics. Shit, you'd certainly see more of TALL TAILS that's for
>sure.
You realize you have a bunch of us on pins and needles waiting for the
next issue, right? :) I've liked what I've seen of the series; good
story and (#fanboy on) beautiful, well drawn, detailed Lage artwork
(#fanboy off). ;)
Interesting you mention having resources...this is what Scott Malcomson
is trying to do with the Rising Phoenix project - get the money to
support publishing and advertising, as well as merchandising, etc.
Seeing if this method of starting an independent company will work in
the long run should make for interesting study. :)
I've rambled long enough for one article, I think... :)
Scott Alan Malcomson
: furry title, but believe me, I can honestly say it has absolutely nothing
: to do with the fact that I am putting something out that only a small
: percentage of people want to read. Just because males between 9-17 is a
: PROVEN comic book market doesn't mean that it's the ONLY market.
AMEN! Tell 'em, sister!
: If superheroes are the only way for independents to survive, then how do
: you explain the succsesses of DC's VERTIGO line, USAGI YOJIMBO, CEREBUS,
: BONE, A DISTANT SOIL, WANDERING STAR, HEPCATS (when it decides to come
: out), NINJA HIGH SCHOOL, and on and on.
And most of these succeed *without* having millions of dollars of
advertising and merchandising poured into them...could the majority of
Marvel's line survive without supporting ultrahype?
: 1) Most independents do not have the capital to buy advertising, much less
: print a book. This is the single most reason as to why most comics fall
: into obscurity.
Hell, I've been saying that for nigh onto two years now...
: A single page B+W ad in either ADVANCE (Capital City's
: book) or PREVIEWS (Diamond's book) is $800.00. What publisher starting out
: has that type of money to spend?
(looks at hands) Is it possible to have negative fingers to count on? -:/
: catalogs. There are over 30,000 items listed every month. A retailer does
: not have the time to sit down and read every single line of copy from every
: company. So s/he's probably going to check out the obvious sellers and
: whomever has the most striking ads. Although ads don't guarantee anything,
: it certainly guarantees you will get noticed by the retailers.
And that's what'll get a book someplace. Hell, a lot of retailers will
take a gamble on a book they've never heard of IF they see a big ol'
full-color ad for it in Previews...they figger that the company must be
serious, or maybe they worry about missing out on the "next hot thing".
After all, what indies ever put out color ads? It's sorta like the stock
market...buyer (in this case, retailer) confidence begets sales that
actually push the value up. But your stock (or comic) will plummet if you
can't inspire that confidence, regardless of the quality or lack thereof.
: 2) Most independents come out too irregularly for comic book stores to even
: REMEMBER stocking them. Any comic, regardless of content will aquire a
: regular retailer clientel if the comic comes out consistently, whether it
: be monthly or bi-monthly. Anything longer than bi-monthly and you're
: playing with fire.
Absolutely! You haven't been reading Hot Wings, have you? This sounds
like one of *my* spiels... -;>
: cannot publish on a regular schedule unless you are sure you sold enough to
: finance printing, especially if you bought advertising. But since you have
: to wait 3 months for the first orders to come in, you can't solicit the
: second issue because since you have to buy an ad for the second issue, you
And so on, and so on...the only solution to this is to get a business
loan and treat the company like what it is...a BUSINESS! You can't make
money self-publishing unless you make it your LIFE. A loan should retain
enough cash to live on for a year (the standard period of readership
building), printing costs for twelve issues (if monthly, six if bimonthly),
and at least one full-color ad per month in a major trade magazine.
Offhand, I'd say that approximates roughly $50,000. Not impossible
to get if you have a clean credit history. Heck, if you're REALLY a
sucker for punishment, and can't get the loan elsewhere, use credit
cards. That sounds stupid on the face of it, but the fact is that many
successful small businesses were started in exactly this fashion. Later
on, you can consolidate your credit card debt into a single loan at a
lower interest rate through a bank...most institutions love to accept
such transfers, so long as you can afford the minimum monthly payments.
No, it's no hay ride. But then, nothing worthwhile ever is.
: Nothing dwindles a comic's rep than lousy lettering, inking, coloring,
: layout design, etc. Don Thompson (Comics Buyer's Guide) canned WILD LIFE #1
: because of lousy lettering. "If the artists spent as much time learning to
: letter properly as they did drawing, we would have a decent looking book"
Yep! I remember seeing "The Wild", and although the art was good and the plot
was better than most Marvels, the lettering was lousy in terms of font,
spelling, AND grammar. I'd still like to see the second ish, but only because
I can hope that the initial mistakes are corrected. Most readers aren't
willing to give a company a second chance.
: If independents had even an inkling of the resources larger companies have,
: you'd see a wider variation of comic books flourishing, even furry comics.
: Shit, you'd certainly see more of TALL TAILS that's for sure.
Well, let's hope I can strike a deal with a backer for Rising Phoenix, then.
On the bad news front, Viacom has stalled their examination of the
company's funding proposal in the face of Marvel's recent move to HW as
their exclusive disty, but on the good news side I've finally gotten
ahold of the addy for DreamWorks (Spielberg/Katzenberg/Giffen's new startup)
and intend to send them a copy of Hot Wings #4 as soon as it leaves the
presses. At the same time, solicitation to a number of venture capital
groups (including the Paul Allen Group) will begin.
Scott Malcomson
Liaison Officer, RPCG
Scott Alan Malcomson
: mucking up the colours on some of their books. (Of course, I've gotten
: Brenner's quality in the past, most notably the little bruhaha which
: caused Matt High to boycot the FurNet's FUR_MAG echo. But the less said
: on that, the better.)
Well, when Brenner screws up everyone suffers, so I don't see where AP
should blame the readers for their opinions. I recently picked up Best
of Furrlough, and the paper sheaf that makes up the front and back four
pages was offset by about an inch or so down. The pages can't be
separated without risking a tear and the artwork is chopped off at the
bottom. My fault, I suppose...I'd been waiting for the book so long that
I didn't bother flipping through it before buying. If I had, AP would've
lost that sale. Lord knows how many others Brenner cost them with a
screwup like that...maybe it was only my copy, but I REALLY doubt it.
: Supply is controlled by demand. Of course, you have to make sure those
: who do the demanding know the supply is out there, but once you do that,
: there's a demand for most anything in comics.
That's it in a nutshell, Karl. People claim that furry books don't sell
because no one wants them...I claim furry books don't sell because no one
knows they're out there. It's almost entirely a matter of word-of-mouth
where this fandom is concerned.
: not just super-heroes anymore. Too bad the Marvel Zombies out there
: can't get that through their heads.
The Zombies literally don't know what they're missing, or they haven't
been involved in comics long enough to recognize the patterns that Marvel
uses to keep selling them lousy books. They can't see past the hype, so
the best way to combat that is to ensure that the hype for *your* company
is just as visible...and more sensible, if at all possible. -;>
: >If independents had even an inkling of the resources larger companies
: >have, you'd see a wider variation of comic books flourishing, even
: >furry comics. Shit, you'd certainly see more of TALL TAILS that's for
: >sure.
: You realize you have a bunch of us on pins and needles waiting for the
: next issue, right? :) I've liked what I've seen of the series; good
: story and (#fanboy on) beautiful, well drawn, detailed Lage artwork
: (#fanboy off). ;)
Damn straight! TT is one of the better comics I've seen come down the
pike inna while. I can only imagine what it would look like in color. I
also use it to fend off allegations from the Zombie crews on the comics
hierarchies that black-and-white equates to high cost and low quality. -:)
: Interesting you mention having resources...this is what Scott Malcomson
: is trying to do with the Rising Phoenix project - get the money to
: support publishing and advertising, as well as merchandising, etc.
: Seeing if this method of starting an independent company will work in
: the long run should make for interesting study. :)
<crosses self> Om pax obiscum pots post-mortem anna deus carborundum...
PLAY BALL! -:)
---LCD ("Hey, I can use all the heavenly aid I can get!")
CMelvi4813
>fandom, period. Outside of a preview of the original (MU) SHANDA #1, I
>don't think the CBG ever gave any furry title a good review, save OMAHA
>(which, of course, deserves one). I'm not saying all furry titles
>should have glowing reviews, but at least highlight the better ones...
Actually, both Don and Maggie have spoken very highly of MAD
RACCOONS; we still carry Don's quote on the back cover of each issue.
>It's been a while since I've subscribed to the CBG, though, and that's
>because it was turning into more of a DC/Marvel newspaper and price
>guide...not so much news on the independents.
Actually, that's not now true, nor was it ever. CBG has always been
very good in its coverage of independents as well as the big guys. I've
subscribed to them for about a decade now, and it's still very much driven
by a genuine love for comic books, period. It's still true, even in the
wake of Don Thompson's death.
> As McCloud said in
>UNDERSTANDING COMICS, the comics can cover any number of genres; it's
>not just super-heroes anymore. Too bad the Marvel Zombies out there
>can't get that through their heads.
But this has always been true; the super-hero domination has only
been the last couple of decades. Before that, comics were populated by
every genre existing. What helped to turn the tide in favor of the
costumed heroes, in part, was the domination of television, begininning in
the later fifties, but not really taking hold until the late sixties. A
lot of publishers folded during that period because they were losing
readers to other mediums; the only thing that was still capturing
interests were the costumed heroes, and they waned for a time in the
mid-seventies before enjoying a rebirth with the advent of the Superman
movies, the onslaught of Star Wars movies, the creation of the new X-Men
and a whole new interest in comics and fantasy. (It was more complicated
than this, of course; this is a simplified version of events.)
Habits die hard, though. Readers have grown up with the costumes,
and this is the expectation they havbe of comics in general, I think.
There's a new barrier preventing the return of the old genres, and its
that readers won't try them until the creators and publishers get them out
there to be seen; but they won't or can't do so unless there is a demand
for the same. Catch 22.
CMelvi4813
do
>: you explain the succsesses of DC's VERTIGO line, USAGI YOJIMBO,
CEREBUS,
>: BONE, A DISTANT SOIL, WANDERING STAR, HEPCATS (when it decides to come
>: out), NINJA HIGH SCHOOL, and on and on.
>And most of these succeed *without* having millions of dollars of
>advertising and merchandising poured into them
Such as the Usagi action figure, the Cerebus plush doll or the
Diamondback cards, the Bone statue or the NHS CD-ROM? And Vertigo, of
course, has the entire DC machine to help promote their books.
>...could the majority of
>Marvel's line survive without supporting ultrahype?
In the beginning, when it was surviving by a thread, it did just
that. And even today it's big enough that it coast along just fine for
several months without any advertising and still make plenty of money.
They're a Name today; everybody knows Marvel. (Not that Marvel would miss
a bet to advertsie, of course...)
Scott Alan Malcomson
: But this has always been true; the super-hero domination has only
: been the last couple of decades. Before that, comics were populated by
: every genre existing. What helped to turn the tide in favor of the
: costumed heroes, in part, was the domination of television, begininning in
: the later fifties, but not really taking hold until the late sixties.
That's a bit narrow of a view of the overall picture, Chuck...it's also
true that several genres (such as "crime" and "good girl" comics) were
targeted by a nationwide McCarthylike slam campaign that resulted in Senate
hearings in the early '50s. Of course, the hearings were inconclusive, but
the industry chose to censor itself by imposing the Comics Code Authority,
and most genres that catered to the adult tastes went underground or died
off due to blackballing and similar tactics.
It's only recently that market forces themselves are cracking the
stranglehold the superhero genre has had on the market. Stores no longer
care about a book having the CCA Stamp of Approval. More adults are
re-entering the market after finding these unapproved books. I don't
believe we'll ever see the sales levels achieved in the late '40s again,
for the very reasons you note above, but the problems of the industry
can't all be laid at the feet of the increases in entertainment choice.
: Habits die hard, though. Readers have grown up with the costumes,
: and this is the expectation they havbe of comics in general, I think.
: There's a new barrier preventing the return of the old genres, and its
: that readers won't try them until the creators and publishers get them out
: there to be seen; but they won't or can't do so unless there is a demand
: for the same. Catch 22.
I agree in principle, but the last I must disagree with in general. I
don't believe it's a classic "Catch-22", being that nothing can
change...just that no one has been approaching it from the right angle.
Few of the independents whose material would appeal to adults are being
run and financed like the businesses they are. Without funding, there's
no money to live decently on or advertise with. Relying on sales of
unadvertised wares to fund the creation of more wares for sale on an
unadvertised basis is pure folly from a business standpoint.
---LCD
Scott Alan Malcomson
: Hors...@indirect.com wrote:
: >And most of these succeed *without* having millions of dollars of
: Such as the Usagi action figure, the Cerebus plush doll or the
: Diamondback cards, the Bone statue or the NHS CD-ROM? And Vertigo, of
: course, has the entire DC machine to help promote their books.
I exempted Vertigo, since they have DC's support. The merchandising for
Usagi, Cerebus (both the doll and Diamondback), Bone and NHS came *after* the
success of each title. At the same time, the merchandising levels for all
of the non-Vertigo stuff is hardly on par with that of the mainstream
material. Usagi's figure would not sell much of anything if it had not
been for the character's use in a TMNT episode. The figure *is* sold as a
TMNT character, after all, and Usagi's comic sales do not reflect an
interest as high as that for the figure, indicating that most kids who
own the figure don't know there *is* a comic book about him.
The remaining material *put together* would create a
merchandising effort roughly equal to one of Marvel's poorer-selling
books in terms of sales and monies invested. You've hardly disproven my
point.
: In the beginning, when it was surviving by a thread, it did just
: that. And even today it's big enough that it coast along just fine for
: several months without any advertising and still make plenty of money.
I haven't seen Marvel *not* advertise for a single month, let alone
several...and the question was not what Marvel could do twenty years ago
when the market was substantially different, but what they could do today.
The facts remain that most of Marvel's books have borderline or slumping
sales, and that the only books that do well are those most heavily pushed
--- Spiderman, X-Men, and so on.
: They're a Name today; everybody knows Marvel. (Not that Marvel would miss
: a bet to advertsie, of course...)
Of course. They're a business.
---LCD
CMelvi4813
>true that several genres (such as "crime" and "good girl" comics) were
>targeted by a nationwide McCarthylike slam campaign that resulted in
Senate
>hearings in the early '50s. Of course, the hearings were inconclusive,
but
>the industry chose to censor itself by imposing the Comics Code
Authority,
>and most genres that catered to the adult tastes went underground or died
>off due to blackballing and similar tactics.
You're right, it was a fairly narrow view; but I said I'd simplified
it. A point to remember here is that the superhero titles themselves very
nearly became extinct as well because of the hearings; only a very few
stalwart titles (Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman) continued to be
published during this time, until the revival of the Flash in the late
50's.
> It's only recently that market forces themselves are cracking the
>stranglehold the superhero genre has had on the market. Stores no longer
>care about a book having the CCA Stamp of Approval. More adults are
>re-entering the market after finding these unapproved books.
I think that overstates your case considerably; the CCA stamp has
held little power or weight for a long time; several titles, even at the
big two, have gone without carrying it for over a decade now. (Swamp
Thing comes to mind.) And readers don't go specifically looking for books
without the stamp, any more than they would go looking for books that
-did- have the stamp. The average reader just plain doesn't care if its
there or not. More adults go into comic shops looking for books with good
material, period. They were buying Swamp Thing -before- it dropped the
stamp, and continued to buy it -after- it dropped the stamp.
>I don't
>believe we'll ever see the sales levels achieved in the late '40s again,
>for the very reasons you note above, but the problems of the industry
>can't all be laid at the feet of the increases in entertainment choice.
I didn't mean to imply that it was the only reason; but it was a very
significant one all the same. It dovetails with the Wertham scare to some
degree.
>: Habits die hard, though. Readers have grown up with the costumes,
>: and this is the expectation they havbe of comics in general, I think.
>: There's a new barrier preventing the return of the old genres, and its
>: that readers won't try them until the creators and publishers get them
out
>: there to be seen; but they won't or can't do so unless there is a
demand
>: for the same. Catch 22.
>I agree in principle, but the last I must disagree with in general. I
>don't believe it's a classic "Catch-22", being that nothing can
>change...just that no one has been approaching it from the right angle.
>Few of the independents whose material would appeal to adults are being
>run and financed like the businesses they are. Without funding, there's
>no money to live decently on or advertise with. Relying on sales of
>unadvertised wares to fund the creation of more wares for sale on an
>unadvertised basis is pure folly from a business standpoint.
Okay, I should amend the Catch 22 example slightly. I agree that it
shouldn't mean that conditions -can't- change, but I do believe that it
stands as an example of the -resistance- to change.
Actually, on rereading, our statements don't really contradict.
You're right about the funding, and that's why a lot of small publishers
can't get the new material out there to be seen (through promo and ads)
for the customer; if there were more demand, and more sales, he could
afford to get the promo and product out to be seen; but without the
demand, he can't afford to take the chance of advertising, if he can't be
sure of the returns. But without the advertising, the customer won't know
the product is there to be had, and therefore demand it.
CMelvi4813
>Usagi, Cerebus (both the doll and Diamondback), Bone and NHS came *after*
the
>success of each title. At the same time, the merchandising levels for all
>of the non-Vertigo stuff is hardly on par with that of the mainstream
>material. Usagi's figure would not sell much of anything if it had not
>been for the character's use in a TMNT episode. The figure *is* sold as a
>TMNT character, after all, and Usagi's comic sales do not reflect an
>interest as high as that for the figure, indicating that most kids who
>own the figure don't know there *is* a comic book about him.
> The remaining material *put together* would create a
>merchandising effort roughly equal to one of Marvel's poorer-selling
>books in terms of sales and monies invested. You've hardly disproven my
>point.
I think you've hardly proven yours. Merchandising is merchandising.
What does it matter -when- the merchandise is created? Which of Marvel's
bottom sellers is being supported by merchandising? Warlock? Darkhawk?
The Prowler? Dr. Strange? Fantastic Force? If there's no interest in
the characters, there's no interest in the merchandise. They support each
other or not at all.
Cerebus actually offered the cards and doll very early on in its
incarnation, -before- it really became successful financially -- at about
the time the book was beginning to get noticed critically. And I can
think of a lot of books that offered merchandise before they were really
noticed enough to be considered successful (if even that in a few cases).
Merchandising doesn't generally carry a tag of automatic success with it.
D.M. Quozl Falk
Reading Scott's advice, I'd advise *considerable* discretion in following
his advise! Everytime I read anything WRT Rising Phoenix, I get strong
feelings that it seems highly unrealistic in a low-gain market such as
furry comics (or indies in general)....
There are two kinds of people who publish indie comics: those with the
lofty goals of making it big, and those who do it out of love and know
the obstacles of the business....
RPGG is out to make money, and the goal of getting a substantial venture
capital investment in a very high risk market is, IMHO, highly
unrealistic. I am also disturbed by Scott's attempt at making a
discussion of Marvel's impact on the comic distribution scene into an
RPGG propaganda post.
Frankly, I find the RPGG proposal unrealisticly illogical within the
realistic limits of the small-press comic market (not to mention the
furry market)....
I apologise if this seems like a flame; it's only my opinion. I don't
expect being on Scott's good graces about this, but I really feel that my
concerns WRT RPGG need to be expressed.
Scott Alan Malcomson
: >That's a bit narrow of a view of the overall picture, Chuck...it's also
: >true that several genres (such as "crime" and "good girl" comics) were
: >targeted by a nationwide McCarthylike slam campaign that resulted in
: You're right, it was a fairly narrow view; but I said I'd simplified it.
I saw that, but it looked like you were talking about the growth of
superhero comics, not the decline of the rest of the market. My apologies
if I misread you.
: A point to remember here is that the superhero titles themselves very
: nearly became extinct as well because of the hearings; only a very few
: stalwart titles (Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman) continued to be
: published during this time, until the revival of the Flash in the late
: 50's.
Yep, I remember reading about that...superhero titles were one of *the*
talked-about sources of "juvenile delinquency" because of their violence
level. That's when things went from costumed vigilantism to role-models
in tights almost overnight...as I recall, it took about a decade for the
paranoia level to drop sufficiently to start getting back to the way
superhero books used to be.
: > It's only recently that market forces themselves are cracking the
: >stranglehold the superhero genre has had on the market. Stores no longer
: >care about a book having the CCA Stamp of Approval. More adults are
: >re-entering the market after finding these unapproved books.
: I think that overstates your case considerably; the CCA stamp has
: held little power or weight for a long time;
The shift back to the basics has been underway for a long time, but you
are correct in that the CCA has been a dead issue for about a decade now.
*sigh* I must be getting old. I remember this stuff like it was
yesterday, trying to get comics in the early '80s and being sneered at by
the shop owner (who apparently thought anything non-CCA was automatically
"smut").
: several titles, even at the big two, have gone without carrying it for
: over a decade now.
Yep, this is true...but the fact remains that the symbol is still in use,
despite its near-pointlessness. Perhaps it still holds weight on the
newsstand circuit, but I've no information about it.
: Thing comes to mind.) And readers don't go specifically looking for books
: without the stamp, any more than they would go looking for books that
: -did- have the stamp. The average reader just plain doesn't care if its
: there or not. More adults go into comic shops looking for books with good
: material, period. They were buying Swamp Thing -before- it dropped the
: stamp, and continued to buy it -after- it dropped the stamp.
That's my point, that the CCA stamp means nothing anymore. Yet, the CCA's
codes for what could and could not receive the stamp (and thereby the
supposed approval of thousands of stores across the country, at least at
the outset) stunted creativity in the market and forced it into a narrow
focus. Point being that the market has been experiencing a revival in
creativity over the last decade or so in large part due to the fact that
non-CCA material can no longer be creditably boycotted. It's a slow but
steady growth now, and each year it accelerates.
: >for the very reasons you note above, but the problems of the industry
: >can't all be laid at the feet of the increases in entertainment choice.
: I didn't mean to imply that it was the only reason; but it was a very
: significant one all the same. It dovetails with the Wertham scare to some
: degree.
I agree. I think we're both in agreement on this in principle --- I just
want to paint the larger picture for those lurkers who may mistake a
single reason for the sole reason. As you've noted, of course, I'm hardly
the sage of the age, and can use someone watching for mistakes *I* make
in the facts I recall! -:)
: Okay, I should amend the Catch 22 example slightly. I agree that it
: shouldn't mean that conditions -can't- change, but I do believe that it
: stands as an example of the -resistance- to change.
Exactly my thoughts on the subject.
: Actually, on rereading, our statements don't really contradict.
<chuckles> Someone recently emailed me, concerning a 2nd Amendment discussion
where we were arguing heatedly, and noted that we *were* agreeing on the
same issue...just from differing angles. He quoted someone wryly as saying
"We disagree on the terms of our agreement, and therefore we agree
violently." It's a bit of a paraphrase, but apt, I think. -:>
: You're right about the funding, and that's why a lot of small publishers
: can't get the new material out there to be seen (through promo and ads)
: for the customer; if there were more demand, and more sales, he could
: afford to get the promo and product out to be seen; but without the
: demand, he can't afford to take the chance of advertising, if he can't be
: sure of the returns. But without the advertising, the customer won't know
: the product is there to be had, and therefore demand it.
Right. I think the problem with small press in that regard mainly
concerns that most self-publishers (and small companies) just don't think
of comics as being something they can live off of *until* they become
popular. They aren't willing to risk --- and, admittedly, it's a very
risky business, so that's understandable. One wrong move and everything
invested can go right down the loo.
---LCD
Scott Alan Malcomson
: Reading Scott's advice, I'd advise *considerable* discretion in following
: feelings that it seems highly unrealistic in a low-gain market such as
: furry comics (or indies in general)....
Please present your argument for why furry comics (or indies in general)
cannot be made into a high-gain market...I'd love to have some reasoned
debate on this matter, but every time I talk to someone about it, they
just snort and say "furry comics don't sell". I say they don't sell
because next to no one knows about them, that being directly due to lack
of advertising. Then they tell me I'm unrealistic, don't say how I am,
and turn away. *shrug* I'm not about to take the opinions of those who
refuse to back their arguments with factual or logical debate with more
than the requisite grain of salt.
: There are two kinds of people who publish indie comics: those with the
: lofty goals of making it big, and those who do it out of love and know
: the obstacles of the business....
Ahem. Quozl...I have the lofty goal of making RPCG big, am doing it out
of love, and have spent over a year in researching the obstacles of the
business. Why should either of the two "types" above be incompatible?
: RPGG is out to make money, and the goal of getting a substantial venture
: capital investment in a very high risk market is, IMHO, highly
: unrealistic.
Quozl...you *do* know that venture capitalists make their money *by*
investing in high-risk, potentially high-yield companies, correct?
: I am also disturbed by Scott's attempt at making a
: discussion of Marvel's impact on the comic distribution scene into an
: RPGG propaganda post.
"Propaganda"? Are you claiming that I'm *lying*, Quozl? Are you claiming
that my intent is to mislead or misle? If so, I would be EXTREMELY
interested in hearing just what you think I've said that is either
unrelated to the topic at hand OR false. Insulting people is hardly a
worthy system of debate, although I suppose it might be effective if your
intent is to discredit RPCG on grounds other than reasoned argument...
: I apologise if this seems like a flame; it's only my opinion. I don't
: expect being on Scott's good graces about this, but I really feel that my
: concerns WRT RPGG need to be expressed.
Well, so far you've said nothing specific. You're certainly welcome to
your opinion, but if you think Rising Phoenix Comics Group is an
unreasonable proposition, I'd like to hear the reasons. I don't claim to
be the Sage of the Age, after all, and despite the year's worth of
feedback and refinement that's gone into improving the company's funding
proposal I am perfectly willing to admit that there may be something
we've missed.
Just please don't reiterate the same old same old that I've shot
down in the past...saying that furry comics don't sell because they can't
sell, or that starting small and building up is the best method, and then
refusing to address counterarguments that refute such claims, gets boring
after the first ten times.
Scott Alan Malcomson
: : I apologise if this seems like a flame; it's only my opinion. I don't
: : concerns WRT RPGG need to be expressed.
One other thing...I have no use for people who only want to be in
my "good graces". A manager who makes decisions based on egoboo is no
manager at all, and a detriment to his or her company besides. I DO wish
to hear your concerns, because if they are grounded in reality they need
to be taken into account, and may well be used to modify RPCG's proposal.
I'm not some bloody demighod, I'm not a CEO, and I don't even care
to be known as a Founder, for the specific reason that my own ideas would
be given undue weight and deference, thus creating short-sighted or
incomplete policies that could hurt the company. I'm a Liaison Officer. My
job is to help facilitate communications between involved parties and
the company, as well as between the involved parties themselves. I employ
logic and reason, combined with input and feedback, to arrive at a workable
policy. You can ask any one of the ninety people involved with Rising
Phoenix at this time: I do NOT use my position to impose policy.
I came up with the original ideas, yes, but they have been
heavily modified over the last year through input from people who have
experience in related fields and thus know better than I. Instrumental in
the development of current RPCG policies are such people as Jason Jensen
(who now retains a seat on the Board of Directors, and who thus has
precisely as much power over events as I do), Mitch Marmel, Dwight
Decker, Dwayne Ferguson, Steve Addlesee, Daniel Gill, John Grindstaff,
Christina Hanson, Paul Kraly, Paula Kalamaras, and many others.
Rising Phoenix is now and has always been an openminded project
that is as big as it is solely because a helluva lot of people think it
makes sense and has a chance of success. It may be my pet project, but it
sure as the sky's blue isn't some fanboy's pipe dream. You therefore may
understand that I get a mite irked when people who evidently know little
about it, despite my posting the entire proposal to the net every time a new
issue of Hot Wings is ready to go to press, insist that nothing ever
could or will come of it.
Ninety people think it *can* work, as opposed to the half-dozen
who've been courageous enough to tell me to my face that they think I'm a
fool. Am I supposed to side with the minority, especially a minority that
does not care to defend its positions?
Scott Malcomson
Liaison Officer, Rising Phoenix Comics Group
Wolf Lahti
Chuck, just what is it with you?
Every post of yours I've seen has been well thought out and reasonably
presented. Not only that, but you consistently offer objective evidence
in a grammatically sound and concisely presented manner.
When are you going to get with the program and join the rest of the
raving, opinionated flamemongers here and bang out messages with your
glands instead of a restrained and broad-based intellect?
If you keep up this sort of thing, folks on the Net are going to think
as highly of you as do those who have met you in person.
---------------------------------
"I hate quotations."
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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