Furry Statistics Question
Angel Ryan
Me and my brother have are engaged in an arguement that I think the
fandom can settle. What is the approximate ratio of men to women in the
fandom? Are there more males than females? I think anyone who has been to
a ConFURence can answer this question quite simply.
For any information which can be given I thank you in advance...
,Caulfield
Daphne Lage
Hi there!
Angel Ryan <cin...@los-angeles.crosswinds.net> wrote in article
<MPG.fa5d5c7a...@news.fysh.org>...
As one of the few females in furrydom, I figure I'll toss in the first 2
cents. The short answer is that furry cons aren't the place to go if you're
looking for a femme date. ;)
I think the ratio would be about 1 femme for every 20 guys and considering
that CF claims 1200 members, I think the ratio of guys is even higher.
Ironically, most of the women I have met in furrydom were other artists. I
*rarely* meet a female furry *fan* - usually either they're there as
creators or dealers, or they were dragged to the con by their SO's. Another
thing is that I remember seeing *more* females (creators and fans) at furry
cons *outside* of ConFurence. I remember ConFurence being *extremely* male
dominated while I saw more femmes at Duckon, Albany Anthrocon, and the now
defunct CFEast (MoreFURcon).
I guess to kill 2 topics with one post, this whole thing reminded me of
something one fan had complained to me once concerning furry fandom in
general. She was complaining that she found it hard to purchase prints and
fanzines because "everything looked gay" and she felt there was nothing
available for female fans to get interested in. She felt most, if not all
furry stuff was catering to oversexed hetero males or oversexed
homosexuals.
Honestly, I had to agree - there really isn't much in furrydom to really
attract female fans, although looking through my printbook only pointed out
to myself that I wasn't exactly trying *myself* either to attract female
fans. Another woman at another con had complained that I had no prints of
"sexy guys" in my print book. All I could do was shrug. Funny... I had some
*guys* complain of the same thing.
Can't please everyone, I guess.
--Daphne Lage
egor...@intercall.com
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Tim Gadd
cin...@los-angeles.crosswinds.net (Angel Ryan) wrote:
>Me and my brother have are engaged in an arguement that I think the
>fandom can settle. What is the approximate ratio of men to women in the
>fandom? Are there more males than females? I think anyone who has been to
>a ConFURence can answer this question quite simply.
>For any information which can be given I thank you in advance...
According to a con organiser I heard talking in the lift, the ratio
was 8:1 My survey of the newsgroup in 1996 made it 7:1.
OTOH 50% of ALF's top 10 posters last month were female.
--
Tim Gadd
Hobart, Tasmania
Lupercal .com
@wolf-web
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Coffeehouse/1161/
'We see the moon but cannot remember its meaning.'
- Edward Brathwaite
Michael Russell (Netcom)
Hi,
Angel Ryan wrote:
> Me and my brother have are engaged in an arguement that I think the
> fandom can settle. What is the approximate ratio of men to women in the
> fandom? Are there more males than females? I think anyone who has been to
> a ConFURence can answer this question quite simply.
It depends on how you measure and define furry fandom:
ConFurence attendence: 85% men : 15% women
Albany Anthrocon attendence: 65% men : 35% women
Online activity: 90% men : 10% women
Art contribution: 70% men : 30% women
Purchase of animal plush: 40% men : 60% women
Purchase of cartoons: 70% men : 30% women
Purchase of comics/zines 75% men : 25% women
These are best guesses. In many cases, the proportion may be
more in the men category's favour.
Because online and computers are still mostly a male thing,
the online measure will be more heavily weighed on the male side.
--
Cheers - Mike "Flafox"
Staying "Tiny Toon'd":
Michael Russell # AS/400, AIX, and Multimedia
IBM Global Services # E-mail: mrus...@ix.netcom.com
Orlando, FL # or msru...@us.ibm.com
"The World of Vicki Fox" # http://people.delphi.com/msrussell
ClarksScr
> Purchase of animal plush: 40% men : 60% women
Hey, Hey! If any of us Furry Males are looking for a date, best to either be at
or sell in the plushies sections of a con. =)
Just a little furry fun here, no real harm intended! =)
From Clark Alan Corwin
e-mail: Clar...@aol.com
A little tabby tom cat with big hopes and dreames! ^6.6^
Think "Furry" not "Fury"! =)
Allen Kitchen
Daphne Lage <egor...@intercall.com> wrote in article
<01bd6cf1$b094c5a0$6b90e9d0@default>...
> Honestly, I had to agree - there really isn't much in furrydom to really
> attract female fans, although looking through my printbook only pointed
out
> to myself that I wasn't exactly trying *myself* either to attract female
> fans. Another woman at another con had complained that I had no prints of
> "sexy guys" in my print book. All I could do was shrug. Funny... I had
some
> *guys* complain of the same thing.
Males are visual creatures. I'm not certain what strikes chords
in women. But tell me, what would attract women into the
fandom to begin with? Tight buns on a Kangaroo morph?
A buff looking wolf? Beefy looking bison? :)
Honestly, I do understand that women respond differently to
visual cues than men. But what could we do within furry
to make it more appealing to 1/2 of the human population?
Is it that women aren't as interested in the art (which I find
hard to believe, as there are so many superb female artists
in and out of this genre) or simply consider the whole thing
childish?
Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
http://www.blkbox.com/~osprey/
Skytech
Tim Gadd wrote:
>
> OTOH 50% of ALF's top 10 posters last month were female.
>
Then again, not every female is female there...
--
La kasigada vulpo
Skytech
^^
<@@>
./
Skytech
Daphne Lage wrote:
>
> Honestly, I had to agree - there really isn't much in furrydom to really
> attract female fans, although looking through my printbook only pointed out
> to myself that I wasn't exactly trying *myself* either to attract female
> fans. Another woman at another con had complained that I had no prints of
> "sexy guys" in my print book. All I could do was shrug. Funny... I had some
> *guys* complain of the same thing.
>
>
Sounds like the computer gaming world. Everyone blames males for it. So why
don't females cater to females? Females must create their own market! Males
should not have to be reprogrammed to behave as females anymore than the other
way around.
The big (and old) questions are: What do you want? What should stories and art
be like to attract a female audience? What should topics be like?
I'd love to see females assert thier opinions and interests more. I think ALF
does a wonderful job with free and equal thought. AFF should be (and I always
thought it was) as open to feminine POV. I've heard stories about MUCK and IRC
treatment of women but do we see it here? You'd figure the furry groups would be
a haven for females to build up their side of furry. I see noone stopping them.
Fursonally, I can say my artwork is feminine friendly since it seems overt
sexuality is the big no-no. Women at work enjoy Skytech's ongoing graphical
story. I'm not coming off as a Phil Donahue but it's just the way my art goes.
For myself, I enjoy the yiffy and spoogey artwork of others. It is possible for
men to produce female-attractive works but we shouldn't be relied on for all of
it.
Am I making any sense?
--
La kasigada vulpo
Skytech
^^
<@@>
.-
Rebecca Gallant
Angel Ryan wrote:
>
> Me and my brother have are engaged in an arguement that I think the
> fandom can settle. What is the approximate ratio of men to women in the
> fandom? Are there more males than females? I think anyone who has been to
> a ConFURence can answer this question quite simply.
>
>
Well, I can't give you scientifc ratios, but I can tell you right now
from my lifetime experience of being a woman in the fantasy/furry genre,
there are definately more men. I'm not really sure why, but I'm not
really complaining either. ;)
Yours, Becky
--
/^--^\
/ . . \
____________________ o0o =x= o0o___________________
Becky's Wildlife and Fantasy Art
URL: http://www.mdc.net/~katrina/
Specializing in photo realistic wildlife and fantasy
paintings and illustrations. Commissions welcomed!
I offer FREE wildlife graphics and a FREE Newsletter!
no one in particular
Allen Kitchen wrote:
>
> Daphne Lage <egor...@intercall.com> wrote in article
> <01bd6cf1$b094c5a0$6b90e9d0@default>...
>
> > attract female fans, although looking through my printbook only pointed
> out
> > to myself that I wasn't exactly trying *myself* either to attract female
> > fans. Another woman at another con had complained that I had no prints of
> > "sexy guys" in my print book. All I could do was shrug. Funny... I had
> some
> > *guys* complain of the same thing.
>
> in women. But tell me, what would attract women into the
> fandom to begin with? Tight buns on a Kangaroo morph?
> A buff looking wolf? Beefy looking bison? :)
Given their preoccupations, they go for muscular fit men
of whatever skin and hair color. It isn't a bulge in the pants,
that's for sure. I mean, look at romance novels. The men have
their shirts open, chest muscles bulging. Often their arms are
bare as well. They look like the top specimens from Gold's Gym.
It probably has to do with inborn natural tendencies of Homo Sapiens.
I've heard it said men are naturally attracted to females with
larger breasts because they might nurse offspring better. There are
no end of analyses availible.
> Honestly, I do understand that women respond differently to
> visual cues than men. But what could we do within furry
> to make it more appealing to 1/2 of the human population?
> Is it that women aren't as interested in the art (which I find
> hard to believe, as there are so many superb female artists
> in and out of this genre) or simply consider the whole thing
> childish?
>
> Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
> http://www.blkbox.com/~osprey/
As to what they want, women tend to go for a story more
than they do a picture. Women seem to like using their imagination
and fantasizing while men want the whole thing up front. I've
learned from some women the fun of visualizing for myself as opposed
to seeing it all right then and they do have a point. There is
some fun to it. If it is a matter of artwork, it usually has to
imply something important to women on a natural level. Maybe this
is why romance novel covers are the way they are. All the women
I know who buy them do look at them. Maybe a more "romantic"
approach to things will draw more women. Maybe a moonlight scene
with a morph couple dancing. I don't know for certain, not being
a woman. But I've hung around enough to know they do have
naturally different tendencies.
-Wayd Wolf
--
"Did the boys all tease you
When they had the chance
Always left standing
When it came time to dance
Did you hide behind your books girl
Did you find your secret friends
Always I'll want you
Always till the end"
-Lemon Parade, Tonic
H. Riesen
On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, no one in particular wrote:
> Given their preoccupations, they go for muscular fit men
> of whatever skin and hair color. It isn't a bulge in the pants,
> that's for sure. I mean, look at romance novels. The men have
> their shirts open, chest muscles bulging. Often their arms are
> bare as well. They look like the top specimens from Gold's Gym.
> It probably has to do with inborn natural tendencies of Homo Sapiens.
> I've heard it said men are naturally attracted to females with
> larger breasts because they might nurse offspring better. There are
> no end of analyses availible.
This is only one dragoness's opinion, of course, so feel free to
take it with as much salt as you wish }:) To me, the thing that makes a
picture of a guy-fur "attractive" (as in, I'd want to buy it) is usually a
sense of power -- and big rippling muscles are an easy, if stereotyped,
way to get that impression across. As I mention below, I suppose I'm not
your average female customer in that I like things like big swords and
fancy costumes :) And, of course, two very important factors for me are
the species depicted and the style and quality of the piece.
> imply something important to women on a natural level. Maybe this
> is why romance novel covers are the way they are. All the women
> I know who buy them do look at them. Maybe a more "romantic"
> approach to things will draw more women. Maybe a moonlight scene
> with a morph couple dancing. I don't know for certain, not being
> a woman. But I've hung around enough to know they do have
> naturally different tendencies.
Aw, hold up -- no women like active, grunty battle pictures? I
can't be the *only* one who finds them... nice! Though admittedly, I
think if more art focused on "romantic" (whatever that means...)
situations instead of merely sexual situations, it might be looked at by
more XX's. Unfortunately, I don't think you can follow a formulaic
solution like romance novel art and assume that's what all women --
especially women in fandom, who tend to be a little different from the
norm -- want. Not all of us read that stuff, you know :) I do think this
is a discussion worth having, though! I admit I do feel sort of..
alienated... sometimes :)
(Look I have a .sig now!)
~*~ Auryanne the Radiant ~*~
Dragon Ascending to the Heavens
~*~ Chih Qiu Tian Long ~*~
aury...@drizzle.com // aury...@u.washington.edu
{DC.D(sun) f+ s+ h Csunlight a- $ m** d+ WL++* Fr+++ L30f Bfire g-- i+! U}
HStCloud
Okaaay . . . in my experience, most femfen are into a bit of mystery -- we
don't need to see the entire male, but he has to be what we consider attractive
facially. For some reason, my character Harry the horse is thought to be very
sexy by many ladies -- some of whom are not into furry fandom at all! No, I
don't know why, unless it's because he does have a personality and he seems to
have a long background . . . there are a few stories out there where Harry has
appeared in human form, then morphed to the horse . . . so . . .
As to my own likes, well -- again, I have to like the face. And I do like some
werewolves, cats, etc., but they don't have to be completely nude to capture my
interest. A picture that looks like a story illustration can catch my eye, or
one where I can get a concept of what that particular male furry is like.
Romantic type illos would probably capture lots of ladies' attention; studying
the romance novel covers might give artists ideas of what might appeal to the
ladies . . .
As to cons -- the only ones that tend to have more femfen than menfen are media
cons. Fanzines are mostly done by females, so zinecons are mostly women.
Oddly enough, the current burgeoning fandoms are Japanime and Xena! Lots of
ladies get into a bit of both . . . of course, a lot of Xenites are lesbians,
so make of that what you will; it may be the reverse of the gay male balance in
furrydom.
Not sure, really, what to say about most furry femfen being artists, but they
are . . .
Harry/Joy-Joy
Kese
Allen Kitchen wrote:
> Daphne Lage <egor...@intercall.com> wrote in article
> <01bd6cf1$b094c5a0$6b90e9d0@default>...
>
>
> Males are visual creatures. I'm not certain what strikes chords
> in women. But tell me, what would attract women into the
> fandom to begin with? Tight buns on a Kangaroo morph?
> A buff looking wolf? Beefy looking bison? :)
Not all of us are disinclined towards the visual though. Myself I always
respond to visual cues more than anything else. Whether or not this is because
I'm an artist and rely on observation to be able to draw, I don't know but I
have a feeling that I'm not alone.Personally, I love attractive looking
furries. Although, over-muscled is not my thing:P
As for furry fandom in general I have no clue as women tend to be "animal
lovers" more than men so I would assume the genre would have instant appeal.
>
>
> Honestly, I do understand that women respond differently to
> visual cues than men. But what could we do within furry
> to make it more appealing to 1/2 of the human population?
> Is it that women aren't as interested in the art (which I find
> hard to believe, as there are so many superb female artists
> in and out of this genre) or simply consider the whole thing
> childish?
Maybe it's because the internet is more male dominated that we're not seeing
more women here, or maybe it's because the tone of a lot of the art is very
"woman unfriendly" in a lot of aspects that it scares them off before they get
the chance to know what it's really about.
Kese
>
>
Victry "Vixy" Hyzenthlay
no one in particular wrote in message <353CC100...@your.door>...
> Given their preoccupations, they go for muscular fit men
>of whatever skin and hair color. It isn't a bulge in the pants,
>that's for sure. I mean, look at romance novels. The men have
>their shirts open, chest muscles bulging. Often their arms are
>bare as well. They look like the top specimens from Gold's Gym.
Now THERE is a good comparison. And if you look closer at those romance
novel covers, you'll notice the men are always handsome, with soft facial,
almost boyish features, smiling or looking lovingly concerned/caring,
affectionate/feeling... and very often embracing/dancing/in physical contact
with and/or listening-to/aware of the woman. Then if you read the novel,
that's mostly how the protagonist is designed. It's not *just* the male that
attracts women, but how he is portrayed interacting with them. You can draw an
Anthropomorphic Wolf with the features of Fabio (Wilford Wolf? ;), standing
with his arms folded, chest bare and puffed out like a rooster, a broad, self
confident smile on his muzzle, full mop of hair well groomed and slightly
frazzled, with a tail held high and dominant, and I'd still prefer the
mediocre, handsome tom lovingly embracing/kissing a generic vixen. Romance
publishers definately don't use a gnarly, grungy, sweaty roustabout, regardles
of physical build. Nor pro-wrestlers who do have some of the most fabulous
bodies. The image they project just isn't very appealing for the audience they
target. Pictures tell stories. You just have to tell what femfurs want to
see. ;)
>
>It probably has to do with inborn natural tendencies of Homo Sapiens.
>I've heard it said men are naturally attracted to females with
>larger breasts because they might nurse offspring better. There are
>no end of analyses availible.
Well, I don't know the what the background is for that particular
attraction is either, but I can confirm that males flock to the fems with
overly abundant mamaries. ;)
Though curiously, there are still a fair number of males who prefer moderation
in proportions. Is there hope? *grin*
>
> . . . Women seem to like using their imagination
>and fantasizing while men want the whole thing up front.
That is true, and I think it is because guys normally havn't as much
concern for the future as they do the here-and-now. It is, afterall, a male
dominated world and most guys seek fun for the present, not worrying so much
about tomorrow because the world will take care of them. Women, on the other
paw, are concerned for the future because the way the world is now, it is men
who will care for them... *AND* their offspring. Something VERY important to
women. So we visualize 'tomorrow' as much, or moreso than the present. A
picture that tells of lasting love and care and romance in the paws of a male
who portrays relational longevity burns deep for a woman. Oh, and physical
attractiveness helps loads too, but I'd say is secondary to personality. ;)
> . . . If it is a matter of artwork, it usually has to
>imply something important to women on a natural level. Maybe this
>is why romance novel covers are the way they are. All the women
>I know who buy them do look at them. Maybe a more "romantic"
>approach to things will draw more women. Maybe a moonlight scene
>with a morph couple dancing. I don't know for certain, not being
>a woman. But I've hung around enough to know they do have
>naturally different tendencies.
Male and female furries kissing, embracing, dancing, talking, snuggling,
hugging, walking paw-in-paw, watching/adoring kits... the things that are
important to them. Far more than mere physical build. Weeeeeelll... alright,
this is all kind of my personal opinion/feelings on the subject. Wish there
were more femfurs to listen to.
---
================================================================
Victry 'love long and perspire; Vixy' Hyzenthlay
Technofox and personal Vixen. "YIP!"
____________________
/ \ _
)""""\___ | - - - - - - - - - - -| |_\____
)----| |\-| Vivacious Vixen-II |-/| | |\
)____|___|============================| """|_)
`----' \|http://members.xoom.com/Vixy|/"""""
"""|"""""""/""""\"""""""|"""
Victry{nospam}@- `=++++=" "=++++=' -@{remove}usa;net
FCF/Wc3admrwA>++C->+Dm+H-M++++P++R+T+++W+>+++Z++Sf++RLE$acn++d++e++f++h+iwf+j*-
p+sf++
Please post any response to this newsgroup. Thanks.
Regan S. Pylman
In article <353CAC20...@ix.netcom.com>,
Skytech <sky...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>Sounds like the computer gaming world. Everyone blames males for it. So why
>don't females cater to females? Females must create their own market! Males
>should not have to be reprogrammed to behave as females anymore than the other
>way around.
As a woman, as a writer, as a furry fan, I feel that I actually have
something to say, here. First of all, I was at ConFurence, so if the
statistic of 8:1 is accurate... well... then there were an aweful lot of
girls hiding from me.
Secondly, Skytech is absolutely right. Do you want to see more women in
fandom? Then create works that will attract them. I have a pretty high
percentage of women in the fans who write to me about Tails of the City,
so I presume that there's a high percentage of women in the people reading
it. And since a lot of the women who write to me /aren't/ lesbians, it's
not just that it's a lesbian love story. 8)
I'm in love with an artist, myself. I spent some time sitting behind her
table at CF9. It interested me to watch which of her notebooks of prints
people looked at. I didn't, for instance, see /any/ women going straight
for the red notebook labled 'Adults Only,' though a fair number of males
did.
Would it hurt so much, artists (And I address this comment to artists,
since, having been a writer at the con, and virtually ignored, while
people followed my girlfriend around with their sketchbooks) to take a
moment, and draw some things that showed romance instead of sex?
I'm not saying 'Hey, don't draw those naughty bits, and the bodily fluids
coming out of them anymore,' because I saw what sells to a large portion
of the (mostly male) audience at CF9. What I am saying is... how 'bout
offering an alternative?
Thanks. Oh, by the bye... if you're interested in looking at it, Tails of
the City lives at <http://www.vixensinblack.org/TotC>, and contains no
naughty bits.
*=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
Everyone's life is a dime novel, my boy. It's when one gets to thinking
his life is a Shakespearean tragedy that the trouble commences.
--The Great Lorenzo
*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*
Regan S. Pylman | azr...@watertower.com | http://www.vixensinblack.org/~azrael
no one in particular
H. Riesen wrote:
>
> On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, no one in particular wrote:
>
> > Given their preoccupations, they go for muscular fit men
> > of whatever skin and hair color. It isn't a bulge in the pants,
> > that's for sure. I mean, look at romance novels. The men have
> > their shirts open, chest muscles bulging. Often their arms are
> > bare as well. They look like the top specimens from Gold's Gym.
> > I've heard it said men are naturally attracted to females with
> > larger breasts because they might nurse offspring better. There are
> > no end of analyses availible.
>
> take it with as much salt as you wish }:) To me, the thing that makes a
> picture of a guy-fur "attractive" (as in, I'd want to buy it) is usually a
> sense of power -- and big rippling muscles are an easy, if stereotyped,
> way to get that impression across. As I mention below, I suppose I'm not
> your average female customer in that I like things like big swords and
> fancy costumes :) And, of course, two very important factors for me are
> the species depicted and the style and quality of the piece.
This points up that furry fan women and your average mundane
women do tend to be a bit different in their outlook. Far more fantasy
around furry women than others. And that does some it up, the muscles
being a sign of power. I'm not even going to touch the big sword
thing. :o
> > imply something important to women on a natural level. Maybe this
> > is why romance novel covers are the way they are. All the women
> > I know who buy them do look at them. Maybe a more "romantic"
> > approach to things will draw more women. Maybe a moonlight scene
> > with a morph couple dancing. I don't know for certain, not being
> > a woman. But I've hung around enough to know they do have
> > naturally different tendencies.
>
> Aw, hold up -- no women like active, grunty battle pictures? I
> can't be the *only* one who finds them... nice! Though admittedly, I
> think if more art focused on "romantic" (whatever that means...)
> situations instead of merely sexual situations, it might be looked at by
> more XX's. Unfortunately, I don't think you can follow a formulaic
> solution like romance novel art and assume that's what all women --
> especially women in fandom, who tend to be a little different from the
> norm -- want. Not all of us read that stuff, you know :) I do think this
> is a discussion worth having, though! I admit I do feel sort of..
> alienated... sometimes :)
No, not ALL women... A large amount and the ones I know
personally herabouts where I am. I've met precious few women who
like erotica beyond the implied, most don't like any real violence
unless there's an attached moral and story and it's part of the
hero rescuing someone or saving the day, and they generally do find
less explicitness in all areas and yet more flowery prose to be
better. Maybe flowery *isn't* the best word... Men tend to like the
concept spoken out right there with a minimum of adjectives and
women like the adjectives even if there's not a lot of direct
explanation. But generalization is as far as I go. I try not to
write specifically for women or men, just write as I do.
> (Look I have a .sig now!)
>
> ~*~ Auryanne the Radiant ~*~
> Dragon Ascending to the Heavens
> ~*~ Chih Qiu Tian Long ~*~
>
> aury...@drizzle.com // aury...@u.washington.edu
> {DC.D(sun) f+ s+ h Csunlight a- $ m** d+ WL++* Fr+++ L30f Bfire g-- i+! U}
I wish I could settle on a decent .sig for myself...
no one in particular
Victry "Vixy" Hyzenthlay wrote:
>
> no one in particular wrote in message <353CC100...@your.door>...
> > Given their preoccupations, they go for muscular fit men
> >of whatever skin and hair color. It isn't a bulge in the pants,
> >that's for sure. I mean, look at romance novels. The men have
> >their shirts open, chest muscles bulging. Often their arms are
> >bare as well. They look like the top specimens from Gold's Gym.
>
> novel covers, you'll notice the men are always handsome, with soft facial,
> almost boyish features, smiling or looking lovingly concerned/caring,
> affectionate/feeling... and very often embracing/dancing/in physical contact
> with and/or listening-to/aware of the woman.
(wolf coughs)
Maybe this is part of the draw. A generic representation of
what they've been led to believe is the right man. But as most any
married woman in love with her man knows, he may not be the greatest
looker by community standards, but once you're in love, he is. So
if there's not love to start, then beauty can draw. Odd, huh? Either
you're drawn for beauty which means nothing about the inside, or
you might by accident not see the person and instead hear the inside
and fall in love with that. Then the person is by default beautiful
since that's what love does. I mean, listen to Hootie and the Blowfish.
"Every time I look at you, I go blind..."
> Then if you read the novel,
> that's mostly how the protagonist is designed. It's not *just* the male that
> attracts women, but how he is portrayed interacting with them. You can draw an
> Anthropomorphic Wolf with the features of Fabio (Wilford Wolf? ;), standing
> with his arms folded, chest bare and puffed out like a rooster, a broad, self
> confident smile on his muzzle, full mop of hair well groomed and slightly
> frazzled, with a tail held high and dominant, and I'd still prefer the
> mediocre, handsome tom lovingly embracing/kissing a generic vixen.
(wolf notes)
Well, mediocrity is the standard common demoninator since
given the ability to put forth visual fantasy on TV and film, we have
explored fantasy to the point where we now put forth 44DD breasts
as a standard for all women to meet if they want men to look their
way. Which leads to breast implants, poor self image, etc. Good thing
there are men who aren't primarily drawn by sight but by something
else. It says the human race isn't so far gone into their own
fanatasy world that they can't find their hearts. And really, the
land of the heart is the greatest fantasy world of all.
> Romance
> publishers definately don't use a gnarly, grungy, sweaty roustabout, regardles
> of physical build. Nor pro-wrestlers who do have some of the most fabulous
> bodies. The image they project just isn't very appealing for the audience they
> target. Pictures tell stories. You just have to tell what femfurs want to
> see. ;)
I did see a book on writing erotica for women at the book
store, but it was written not much differently than I'm inclined
to. Casually hanging around the girls growing up had an effect I
guess. I mean, I watch adult films and all, but JUST the spooge,
or money shots as they say, isn't enough. Some things are powerfully
erotic and others aren't. I saw something on cable called Playtime
with Monique Parent and Jennifer Burton which just melted my TV.
But they didn't even drop their panties. The music, the motion, the
sounds, the... genuine nature of it. The actresses gave a good
impression that they were into it all. There have been other
hardcore movies that made me, if anything, yawn. I'm not into Candida
Royalle's couples stuff, but I do note a difference when Nina Hartley
or Sharon Mitchell is in charge as opposed to a guy. There's a
real difference. (how OLD am I???)
> >
> >It probably has to do with inborn natural tendencies of Homo Sapiens.
> >I've heard it said men are naturally attracted to females with
> >larger breasts because they might nurse offspring better. There are
> >no end of analyses availible.
>
> Well, I don't know the what the background is for that particular
> attraction is either, but I can confirm that males flock to the fems with
> overly abundant mamaries. ;)
"You know, it isn't fair. I can outlast any of them. Maybe
I should just..."
"Jessica! Put your shorts back on!"
"Oh guys..."
Well, there's ONE way to get their attention. Then once you
have it, be mercilessly manipulative in getting it through their heads
that you have a personality. Never stop trying to do that. Even the
male chauvinists can learn new tricks.
> Though curiously, there are still a fair number of males who prefer moderation
> in proportions. Is there hope? *grin*
Like I said, any real man knows that much more than a handful
is looking for trouble. If you're in love with the woman behind the
mountains, then by all means risk it. But there's gotta be more than
boobs to make the relationship move.
> >
> > . . . Women seem to like using their imagination
> >and fantasizing while men want the whole thing up front.
>
> That is true, and I think it is because guys normally havn't as much
> concern for the future as they do the here-and-now. It is, afterall, a male
> dominated world and most guys seek fun for the present, not worrying so much
> about tomorrow because the world will take care of them. Women, on the other
> paw, are concerned for the future because the way the world is now, it is men
> who will care for them... *AND* their offspring. Something VERY important to
> women. So we visualize 'tomorrow' as much, or moreso than the present. A
> picture that tells of lasting love and care and romance in the paws of a male
> who portrays relational longevity burns deep for a woman. Oh, and physical
> attractiveness helps loads too, but I'd say is secondary to personality. ;)
Like I said, love makes the other person beautiful. How else
do you explain women growing up in this nation of all nations falling
for guys who weigh three hundred pounds? They seem more handsome
when their spirit seems more handsome. As to offspring, women do tend
to find those important. It seems that men and women shouldn't try
to be equal as in the same but equal just from a genderless point of
view in those areas not impinged on seriously by such biological
issues. In other words, men seem better suited to interfamily affairs
while women seem to run intrafamily affairs better. Between the
family and the outside world, men have to put up the tough exterior.
Women seem to do better with the multi-level interaction of the
inside of the family. Men can be sensitive as all hell like me, but
we do generally have to defer to a woman's touch in comforting the
kids, etc. We really are different. No shame or tragedy in it. It
could be a big strength. Gotta be some reason beyond stupid luck for
surviving this long while being given to killing our own.
> > . . . If it is a matter of artwork, it usually has to
> >imply something important to women on a natural level. Maybe this
> >is why romance novel covers are the way they are. All the women
> >I know who buy them do look at them. Maybe a more "romantic"
> >approach to things will draw more women. Maybe a moonlight scene
> >with a morph couple dancing. I don't know for certain, not being
> >a woman. But I've hung around enough to know they do have
> >naturally different tendencies.
>
> Male and female furries kissing, embracing, dancing, talking, snuggling,
> hugging, walking paw-in-paw, watching/adoring kits... the things that are
> important to them. Far more than mere physical build. Weeeeeelll... alright,
> this is all kind of my personal opinion/feelings on the subject. Wish there
> were more femfurs to listen to.
I like those scenes too. I mean, I read Genus and love
it when Hardiman has another Skunkworks story. But I also love
it when I find some art on the net with a furry couple together
and it genuinely moves. All of my spooge in my stories is generally
around the men acting like fools and then the women doing the
same. Like the strip club visit with Chance and Dorian and when
Robin and Selene had the male strippers over. But then there's the
tender moments in the grass in the field between Dorian and Selene
and Chance reassuring Robin that her past as an 18th century
prositute isn't a problem for him. There are sweet moments and
then there are hot moments. And men like more hot and women like
more sweet. ON AVERAGE. I'm not stating it as a rule. There are
women who are turned on by violence...
> ---
> ================================================================
> Victry 'love long and perspire; Vixy' Hyzenthlay
> Technofox and personal Vixen. "YIP!"
> ____________________
> / \ _
> )""""\___ | - - - - - - - - - - -| |_\____
> )----| |\-| Vivacious Vixen-II |-/| | |\
> )____|___|============================| """|_)
> `----' \|http://members.xoom.com/Vixy|/"""""
> """|"""""""/""""\"""""""|"""
> Victry{nospam}@- `=++++=" "=++++=' -@{remove}usa;net
> FCF/Wc3admrwA>++C->+Dm+H-M++++P++R+T+++W+>+++Z++Sf++RLE$acn++d++e++f++h+iwf+j*-
> p+sf++
> Please post any response to this newsgroup. Thanks.
Hey, Vixy. Write some when your cold is better. Post it
here or send it to a friend first, but wait until you're clear
headed. I don't want you hitting the Delete key in the middle of
a sneeze and getting so p.o.'ed you clobber me again.
(wolf points to regrowing eyebrows)
Cause then you'd have to address me in public again,
I'd faint, and Sally would put the paddles to my face again.
I think Paris put her up to it to get my attention back to
writing...
-Wayd(e) Wolf, wiping his forehead and sighing in relief...
Allen Kitchen
Regan S. Pylman <azr...@studio.watertower.com> wrote in article
<419B7CEC68A1F472.3A24D00E...@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t>...
> As a woman, as a writer, as a furry fan, I feel that I actually have
> something to say, here. First of all, I was at ConFurence, so if the
> statistic of 8:1 is accurate... well... then there were an aweful lot of
> girls hiding from me.
I think the 8/1 ratio is close to accurate. I saw a number of women there.
Not all of them were behind the dealer tables either. Kit-Ping even gave
me a hug! (which made my day)
> Secondly, Skytech is absolutely right. Do you want to see more women in
> fandom? Then create works that will attract them.
As a fellow furry writer, who gets the same amount of respect, (heh)
let me ask you: What would you suggest? I've seen several very
romantic furry stories. "Gift of fire..." by Watts Martin leaps to mind.
So the stories are there. Also, Lynx and Greywolf draw lots of
romantic imagery. So, other than increasing the romance quotient,
what else would help? Considering the number of women who love
animals, their abscence in the fandom puzzles me.
And I'm not fishing for dates either. I think the RL Wife would
have some words with me. Short words. Say, 4 letter words.
At high volume. Punctated with flying crockery
> And since a lot of the women who write to me /aren't/ lesbians, it's
> not just that it's a lesbian love story. 8)
How do you know? : )
I mean, is there a header on the email or something to notify you
of the sexual orientation of the sender? Looks like I'm going to
have to chat with mr. Bill Gates. He's asking WAY too many questions
in his internet setup wizard :)
> I didn't, for instance, see /any/ women going straight
> for the red notebook labled 'Adults Only,' though a fair number of males
> did.
Ah, the raging fanboys... so much fun to watch the teeming herds
trampling the hills to get to the pictures of A inserted into slot B...
For what it's worth, I purchase teasing images, but not show-it-all
pics. I enjoy letting my imagination fill in the blanks more than
having it handed to me with a side order of fries.
> Would it hurt so much, artists (And I address this comment to artists,
> since, having been a writer at the con, and virtually ignored, while
> people followed my girlfriend around with their sketchbooks) to take a
> moment, and draw some things that showed romance instead of sex?
Maybe next CF, they'll have a writer's appreciation social. That would
be very nice, I think.
> Thanks. Oh, by the bye... if you're interested in looking at it, Tails
of
> the City lives at <http://www.vixensinblack.org/TotC>, and contains no
> naughty bits.
Till chapter 35 :) Sorry, had to twist your tail a little.
RoofShadow
Daphne Lage wrote:
>
> I guess to kill 2 topics with one post, this whole thing reminded me of
> something one fan had complained to me once concerning furry fandom in
> general. She was complaining that she found it hard to purchase prints and
> fanzines because "everything looked gay" and she felt there was nothing
> available for female fans to get interested in. She felt most, if not all
> furry stuff was catering to oversexed hetero males or oversexed
> homosexuals.
>
>
> egor...@intercall.com
>
I really have to agree :) But, ah, there's a good reason for that... I'm
sorry in advance iffen this kinda hacks anyfur off at all, but, (it's
just a theory, please don't flame me ;) I think that mayhap many of the
people in the furry community are people considered 'nerds' or 'geeks.'
Therefore, they turn to the wonderful internet to find a place where you
won't be judged by your looks or interests. Where you can
more-than-likely find people who are just like you. Now, many people
could be outcasts because of sexual preference. And, as we know,
homosexuality, no matter how much people tolerate it on the surface, is
still widely disapproved of. Those people also turn to the furry
community for compainonship. Well, just a thought. Sorry iffen I
rambled senselessly :)
-RoofShadow S.
Roo...@hotmail.com
Jim Doolittle
In article <6hium3$655$1...@crucigera.fysh.org>, "Victry \"Vixy\" Hyzenthlay"
<Re...@newsgroup.please> wrote:
> >It probably has to do with inborn natural tendencies of Homo Sapiens.
> >I've heard it said men are naturally attracted to females with
> >larger breasts because they might nurse offspring better. There are
> >no end of analyses availible.
>
>
> Well, I don't know the what the background is for that particular
> attraction is either, but I can confirm that males flock to the fems with
> overly abundant mamaries. ;)
> Though curiously, there are still a fair number of males who prefer moderation
> in proportions. Is there hope? *grin*
*wave*
I'm not a big fan of overly-busty furry fems (ala Doug Winger and others).
The proportions look completely off to me, and very unattractive. Sure,
there's nothing wrong with a nice looking pair, but in moderation, please!
:)
-Jim
--
Jim Doolittle People demand freedom of speech to
dool...@uiuc.edu make up for the freedom of thought
-------------------------------- which they avoid.
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/doolittl -- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard
Regan S. Pylman
In article <01bd6d6d$31d69050$8f301bc6@spgspare>,
Allen Kitchen <all...@blkbox.com> wrote:
>As a fellow furry writer, who gets the same amount of respect, (heh)
>let me ask you: What would you suggest? I've seen several very
>romantic furry stories. "Gift of fire..." by Watts Martin leaps to mind.
>So the stories are there. Also, Lynx and Greywolf draw lots of
Well, there are two problems with writen materials in fur. The first is
that, when you encounter furry fandom, what you're most likely to
encounter is visual imagry. Yes, there's good fiction out there, but you
have to go looking for it. and even in printed matter, the 'spooge'
outweighs what I would refer to as 'good stuff' rather heavily. Look at
Miavir's fiction index... most of what's flagged as outstanding is overtly
sexual. Heck, the /one/ sexually explicit story that I wrote, years ago,
'Waterfall', is better known than Tails of the City, which I'm quite a bit
prouder of.
The second is that there's very little respect for writers in the fandom.
At CF, at one point, I was litteraly told, 'Oh, you're just a writer.'
So if it's hard to find text, and it's hard to find text that isn't
sexually explicit, and that text is counted as not very important... then
who cares?
>> And since a lot of the women who write to me /aren't/ lesbians, it's
>> not just that it's a lesbian love story. 8)
>
>How do you know? : )
Well, because many of them say things like 'I'm not a lesbian, but I
identify with...' blah, blah, blah. It's amazing... when you write a
lesbian love story, fans seem to feel obligated to tell you their
orientation when they write. 8)
I even have at least one fan who identifies himself as 'The root of all
evil... a hetrosexual white male'. (His words).
>Maybe next CF, they'll have a writer's appreciation social. That would
>be very nice, I think.
That would be nice. And I've offered Vinson Mink that if he wants me to,
I'll run a writing workshop at the next CF. This time, I wrote stories in
the sketchbooks of people who were interested. I think there were three.
I had fun, they liked the stories, and I made a point.
>Till chapter 35 :) Sorry, had to twist your tail a little.
Even there, the actual nasty stuff takes place offscreen.
Digital Dragon
** To reply in e-mail, remove ".cebsim" from address **
On 21 Apr 1998 06:42:53 GMT, "Daphne Lage" had thoughts about Re: Furry Statistics Question:
> Hi there!
>
>----------*a neat sparkly effect and a bunch of text vanishes!*-----
> Honestly, I had to agree - there really isn't much in furrydom to really
> attract female fans, although looking through my printbook only pointed out
> to myself that I wasn't exactly trying *myself* either to attract female
> fans. Another woman at another con had complained that I had no prints of
> "sexy guys" in my print book. All I could do was shrug. Funny... I had some
> *guys* complain of the same thing.
>
> Can't please everyone, I guess.
>
A green dragon with brown markings suddenly falls to the ground in a heap.
ROTFL. "Sorry." he says, "That's probably the funniest thing of heard
for some time in Furland!" Climbs to his feet and morphs into a 6' tall
anthro dragon. "Hi, Daphne. I'm Digi (the Digital Dragon!). I was just
flyin' along, minding my own business, when I picked up your conversation."
Holding his sides, checks for wing damage. Mutters a command and a
doorway opens. A small tray floats out laden with cinnamon rolls and
tea.
"Please, help yourself."
Digi, a highly amused dragon, travelling in the Furryverse.
--
_________________________ _________________ ________________
/ \/ _______________ \/ \
| Digital Dragon \/ _____________ \/ Team *AMIGA* |
| digi...@discovernet.net \/_____________\/ A1200 50MHz |
| www.discovernet.net/usr/digidrag "Follow the Bouncing Ball" |
\ DC.D/H.f++.s+.h--.Cg|b,t:Hb.a(d+ h+).$+.m.d+++.WL++*/WL+^*. /
\ Fr--.L.z.e+++.g.i-- /
\__________________________________________________________/
Dr. Cat
Well, I know one furry thing out there that seems to appeal to women just
fine. But then, we kinda expected it to when we made it. :X) One of
our players on Furcadia (a woman, as it happens) made a survey page. At
the moment the results are running 57% male, 43% female with 48 people
responding. (At 24 it was actually 50/50, but these things never last!)
The survey is at http://members.xoom.com/woodsong/furcadia/results.html
if anybody wants to view all the latest results, presented as colorful
pie graphs. There's also a link to it from the http://furre.base.org page.
Bottom line - I think women like to socialize, chat, and develop new
friendships and/or serious relationships. And we try to draw on the
whole population of the Internet, rather than just from furry fandom, so
we haven't inherited the male-biased population ratio that furry fandom
has. We have a lot of anime fans (many who followed the link on
OtakuWorld - thanks Ginniko and Dov!), people who heard about it from
IRC, or all sortsa other places. I think the population of the Internet
at large is something like 30-40% female now, so they're definitely out
there!
We also try to discourage rude, crude, violent or sexually explicit
behavior in the main public areas. I think males are more likely to put
up with insults and/or violence in a new chat room, game, or whatever.
Or even to enjoy participating in those. Whereas I think more females
would be likely to just give up on a place if they tried it and saw that
sort of thing going on there.
*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
Dr. Cat / Dragon's Eye Productions || Free alpha test:
*-------------------------------------------** http://www.bga.com/furcadia
Furcadia - a new graphic mud for PCs! || Let your imagination soar!
*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
(Disclaimers: A self-selected group of 48 is not a very statistically
solid sample. Some women like stuff that's really WEIRD. Like my
business partner, for instance. (No, I'm not saying she IS really weird,
I'm saying she's a woman that likes stuff that's weird.) If a man says
something in the middle of a forest, where there's no woman around to
hear him, is he still wrong? If a woman says something in the middle of
a forest with no man around to hear her, is she still complaining? And
whatever the naysayers may claim to the contrary, chicks really, really
dig a guy who goes to Confurence and sticks bananas in his ears.
Seriously, though, keep it in your hotel room. The rest of us just don't
wanna see that, ok?)
(Things that make you go "hmmmm": I know of at east three couples on
Furcadia where one of them has moved a large distance to be with the
other. In all three cases, it's been the man that moved, while the woman
stayed right where she was. Well, I guess I know which gender is
*really* still in charge of things!)
Roz Gibson
In article <MPG.fa5d5c7a...@news.fysh.org>,
cin...@los-angeles.crosswinds.net says...
>
>Me and my brother have are engaged in an arguement that I think the
>fandom can settle. What is the approximate ratio of men to women in the
>fandom? Are there more males than females? I think anyone who has been to
>a ConFURence can answer this question quite simply.
>
>For any information which can be given I thank you in advance...
I suggest you check out the furry poll I did in the latest issue of Huzzah
(29) It has more demographics than you can shake a stick at. In case you
can't, though, the gender breakdown was 86 male, 14 female, and 2 "both"
(don't ask).
If your newsreader has a back archive, the results were posted in this NG in
late January/very early Febuary.
Get to work!
Roz G.
--
Furry Code
FFD2a A++++$ C++ D- H- M- P R++ T++ W+ Z++++ SF#
RLA A+ Cn++ D- E++ F+ H+++ I+ P++ SF#
Roz Gibson in real life, and nobody in furry muck.
Skytech
Victry "Vixy" Hyzenthlay wrote:
>
> Wish there were more femfurs to listen to.
>
> ---
If this keeps up, maybe there will be.
Femfurs out there! Stop lurking and voice your opinions!
--
La kasigada vulpo
Skytech
^^
<@@>
./
Skytech
Allen Kitchen wrote:
>
> Regan S. Pylman <azr...@studio.watertower.com> wrote in article
> <419B7CEC68A1F472.3A24D00E...@library-proxy.airnews.ne
> t>...
>
> > for the red notebook labled 'Adults Only,' though a fair number of males
> > did.
>
> Ah, the raging fanboys... so much fun to watch the teeming herds
> trampling the hills to get to the pictures of A inserted into slot B...
Hmmm. "Raging fanboy'. I never though of myself in that fashion yet I like the
sexually oriented furry works. I don't believe I remember fighting my way,
tongue hanging and slavering, to grab dirty pictures. I guess as long as sex is
involved, I'll always be labeled a juvenile sex fiend. *sigh* Males can't be
males.
--
La kasigada vulpo
Skytech
^^
<-->
.-
Skytech
Regan S. Pylman wrote:
>
> Would it hurt so much, artists (And I address this comment to artists,
> since, having been a writer at the con, and virtually ignored, while
> people followed my girlfriend around with their sketchbooks) to take a
> moment, and draw some things that showed romance instead of sex?
>
> coming out of them anymore,' because I saw what sells to a large portion
> of the (mostly male) audience at CF9. What I am saying is... how 'bout
> offering an alternative?
>
Furry artwork, both visual and textual, has a unique characteristic not
generally seen in other modern western art forms: freedom of sexuality. I don't
know of any other western (japanime and manga are a whole other world) genre
that is so unrepressed and stays that way. Why is furry so sex obsessive?
Because noone seem to mind. Explicit pictures and stories are easily avalible on
the net. *Graphic* comics can be bought a your favorite local comic shop. In a
world the chides and humiliate males for being male, this is paradise.
I'm not saying furry should be nothing but yiff/spooge anymore than I want it as
repressed (and supressed) as most other media forms. It's time to stake claims
for all levels of furry expression. I know it's out there; I've seen it often
enough. To name a *very* few, Shanda, Katmandu, Erma Felna, and even Omaha show
you can blend features attractive to both sexes.
--
La kasigada vulpo
Skytech
^^
<@@>
./
Skytech
Regan S. Pylman wrote:
>
>
> I even have at least one fan who identifies himself as 'The root of all
> evil... a hetrosexual white male'. (His words).
>
Yeah... welcome to to the world of runaway political correctness.
--
La kasigada vulpo
Skytech
^^
<@@>
.-
Skytech
Dr. Cat wrote:
>
> The survey is at http://members.xoom.com/woodsong/furcadia/results.html
> if anybody wants to view all the latest results, presented as colorful
> pie graphs. There's also a link to it from the http://furre.base.org page.
>
No survey, just 'Hello world'.
no one in particular
> La kasigada vulpo
> Skytech
>
> ^^
> .-
I don't fight for anything like that either. I think Allen
meant the overriding spooge interest. I like spooge, but not all
spooge. I mean Terrie Smith's Little Paw I&II were mere nudity with
a slight touch of erotica, not actual out and out raw sex. I have
both and think they're great. At least, the female characters.
And I of course read Genus and can't wait for the next Skunkworks
adventure. But I also liked Vixen's Keep and I read Snowblind
three times in one night.
As to males not being able to be males, don't give up. I
know that one test is to simply come out and say it honestly. For
instance, the lady I'm supposed to be dating on Friday talked at
length with me on the phone and we covered a zillion subjects
including men hurting women and taking them for granted and I said
that I've heard women complain endlessly that men want oral sex on
them but don't want to return the favor. I told her that a man
should count on at least an hour if not more, and that if a woman
can walk straight after that, he hasn't done his job right. She
laughed her butt off. So it depends on whether its for your sake
or hers. Women say one thing, do another, appreciate a third.
-Wayd Wolf
--
"Did the boys all tease you
When they had the chance
Always lef standing
Mel. White
Angel Ryan (cin...@los-angeles.crosswinds.net) wrote:
: Me and my brother have are engaged in an arguement that I think the
: fandom? Are there more males than females? I think anyone who has been to
: a ConFURence can answer this question quite simply.
Whurf... from CF, it seemed like it was about a 10-to-1 ratio from what
I saw. I'd go along with the 7-to-1 ratio on FurryMuck, however
(although some areas seem to have a higher ratio of RL females partici-
pating in them (WeaselOak Treehouse, HoneyBadgers', and Owlhaven Literary
Lounge are three)).
--K'has, wizard of FurryMuck.
========================================================================
Fed up with Spammers? *** Here's some useful resources:
http://www.cauce.org http://ga.to/mmf http://www.abuse.net
Report chain letters/pyramid schemes to u...@ftc.gov The Federal Trade
Commission is now helping shut down scammers and spammers.
Allen Kitchen
Regan S. Pylman <azr...@studio.watertower.com> wrote in article
<7273F9D36BAF4488.EBF4528F...@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t>...
> In article <01bd6d6d$31d69050$8f301bc6@spgspare>,
> Allen Kitchen <all...@blkbox.com> wrote:
> Well, there are two problems with writen materials in fur. The first is
> that, when you encounter furry fandom, what you're most likely to
> encounter is visual imagry. Yes, there's good fiction out there, but you
> have to go looking for it. and even in printed matter, the 'spooge'
> outweighs what I would refer to as 'good stuff' rather heavily. Look at
> Miavir's fiction index... most of what's flagged as outstanding is
overtly
> sexual. Heck, the /one/ sexually explicit story that I wrote, years ago,
> 'Waterfall', is better known than Tails of the City, which I'm quite a
bit
> prouder of.
Oddly enough, I get the same number of complements for my
regular stories as I do for my erotic works. As I've only written 2
eros pieces, that may have something to do with it. But yes, the
written works are sex-laden just as the drawn works are.
Perhaps Miavir could put up a Kid-friendly page on his site that
people can link to, and nothing sexual is mentioned. Sorta like
a YERF/scfa page for writers...
> The second is that there's very little respect for writers in the fandom.
> At CF, at one point, I was litteraly told, 'Oh, you're just a writer.'
I get the blues sometimes since I can't join the artists in
drawing cute characters back and forth. But I've come to realize
not many of them can create a story front middle and end. Everyone
has their talent, and writers are no less gifted than the artists. So
don't let that person bring you down.
Incidently people: putting a writer down because he/she can't draw
DOES hurt you know! Some of us can visualize and imagine just
fine, but can't make the fingers create what the mind dreams up.
Please be a little more considerate of furs feelings... I for one am
sensitive about not being able to draw. I've tried and tried.
BTW: did you know in SciFi fandom, it is the writers who are revered,
and the artists who get ignored? :)
Don't let the visual-heavy nature of furryfandom stop you from enjoying
it, or from writing within it. We need all the writers we can get.
Especially people who know how to craft a good tall tail tale :)
Write for yourself, and for your friends. Show it to everyone: we
appreciate it. And if you are burning out, walk away a few weeks.
I tend to read alot when in Down mode, and it always gets my
juices flowing again.
> So if it's hard to find text, and it's hard to find text that isn't
> sexually explicit, and that text is counted as not very important... then
> who cares?
*hug*
Lots of furs care. But this IS a visual heavy genre, and we must
accept that. I view it as a challenge: to write something SO
intense and powerful I can tear people away from the eyecandy
for awhile. Not easy to do, granted. But if you can pull it off here,
then you can grab an audience anywhere.
> >How do you know? : )
>
> Well, because many of them say things like 'I'm not a lesbian, but I
> identify with...' blah, blah, blah. It's amazing...
Heh! Okay then. If furs are telling you upfront... :)
> >Maybe next CF, they'll have a writer's appreciation social. That would
> >be very nice, I think.
>
> That would be nice. And I've offered Vinson Mink that if he wants me to,
> I'll run a writing workshop at the next CF.
CF9 had the discussion with Lissane Norman, which was fantastic.
Also the Erotic Story sig with Elf, but I missed that :(. I'm thinking
of doing the same thing you are, but at the Memphis Furmeet on
Laborday.
Sadly, I won't be at CF10. I can't make it except every other year. :(
> This time, I wrote stories in
> the sketchbooks of people who were interested. I think there were three.
> I had fun, they liked the stories, and I made a point.
Great idea! I'll try that. Thanks!
Allen Kitchen
Skytech <sky...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<353DDA72...@ix.netcom.com>...
> Allen Kitchen wrote:
> >
> > Regan S. Pylman <azr...@studio.watertower.com> wrote in article
> >
<419B7CEC68A1F472.3A24D00E...@library-proxy.airnews.ne
> > t>...
> >
> > > I didn't, for instance, see /any/ women going straight
> > > for the red notebook labled 'Adults Only,' though a fair number of
males
> > > did.
> >
> > Ah, the raging fanboys... so much fun to watch the teeming herds
> > trampling the hills to get to the pictures of A inserted into slot B...
>
> Hmmm. "Raging fanboy'. I never though of myself in that fashion yet I
like the
> sexually oriented furry works. I don't believe I remember fighting my
way,
> tongue hanging and slavering, to grab dirty pictures. I guess as long as
sex is
> involved, I'll always be labeled a juvenile sex fiend. *sigh* Males can't
be
> males.
I didn't take any potshots at you Sky. But I saw fans act like
jackasses at CF9. A fellow wolf was ready to tear one guy's
head off for shouldering him out of the way and turning the pages
back to the erotic material. I'm not labling everyone who looked
at the erotic stuff as being a fanboy. I'm labling those who looked
at nothing but and jumping from table to table not caring how
rude they were as being Fanboys.
Sorry Sky. I wasn't trying to hurt your feelings. But being Male
isn't carte blanche to be offensive. I'm Male, and I don't act
obnoxious in public. Well, as far as you know I don't :)
Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
Mel. White
Skytech (sky...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Tim Gadd wrote:
: > OTOH 50% of ALF's top 10 posters last month were female.
: Then again, not every female is female there...
: --
---------------
(g) Nor is every male a RL male (I'm a shining example of that).
Playing a male character has many advantages from a woman's standpoint,
and almost no disadvantages.
Lisa Jennings
Skytech wrote:
> Victry "Vixy" Hyzenthlay wrote:
> > Wish there were more femfurs to listen to.
> >
> > ---
>
> If this keeps up, maybe there will be.
>
> Femfurs out there! Stop lurking and voice your opinions!
I do, but it often appears that nobody cares to hear me. *sigh*
ermine
[undo the Knot to Reply.]
Allen Kitchen
Lisa Jennings <Same...@SamePlace.com> wrote in article
<353E0B4A...@SamePlace.com>...
> Skytech wrote:
> > Victry "Vixy" Hyzenthlay wrote:
> > > Wish there were more femfurs to listen to.
> > >
> > > ---
> >
> > If this keeps up, maybe there will be.
> >
> > Femfurs out there! Stop lurking and voice your opinions!
>
> I do, but it often appears that nobody cares to hear me. *sigh*
I listen to you alot milady. I don't always reply, since I don't
always have anything to say. But you are always heard dear
khromat :)
Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
Louis Lightpaw
Allen Kitchen wrote in message <01bd6d6d$31d69050$8f301bc6@spgspare>...
>> Secondly, Skytech is absolutely right. Do you want to see more women in
>> fandom? Then create works that will attract them.
>
This, for a male, is easier said than done. My cousin often says my stories
would be better if there was an romantic edge. But, its hard to be romantic
if when you try to be romantic you feel like you're being an old fogey (at
the age of 16). But not all women want romance, and not all men want sex.
>As a fellow furry writer, who gets the same amount of respect, (heh)
Hmm, there isn't much respect for furry writers because people do the old
5th grader thing. "Hey, where's the pictures?" And 'sides, who (in general)
wants to spend all night reading a story when they could look at a picture
in under a minute? (I personally prefer reading stories without pictures or
movies becuase the hero doesn't have to be white, male, or a human.) BTW,
how much you wanna bet that Yiffco recives more hits in a day, than Miavir's
does in a week? And to take it further: How much do you bet that The things
marked adult, S or N, or not for minors recieve more hits than the rest.
>And I'm not fishing for dates either. I think the RL Wife would
>have some words with me. Short words. Say, 4 letter words.
>At high volume. Punctated with flying crockery
>
Remember: If you catch anything she throws at you, it's yours to keep!
(unless you catch it with your head)
>Ah, the raging fanboys... so much fun to watch the teeming herds
>trampling the hills to get to the pictures of A inserted into slot B...
>For what it's worth, I purchase teasing images, but not show-it-all
>pics. I enjoy letting my imagination fill in the blanks more than
>having it handed to me with a side order of fries.
>
Too often than not, fans are painted as these Beavis and Butthead type of
people.
"Huh huh huh! Hey Butt-head, that chick has real tail!"
"Come to Butt-head..."
<paul_harvey>
Why do people flock to art rather than writing? Maybe overexposure of
"great" writing in school and underexposure of "great" art. Maybe the amount
of time needed to read compared to the amount of time needed to look. Maybe
the laziness of some people to visualize. Why is it so imbalanced in furdom?
"Well sure you say it's a fox, but how does it look like?" I'm Louis
Lightpaw. Good day!
</paul_harvey>
Allen Kitchen
Louis Lightpaw <elm...@bellsouth.net> wrote in article
<Ocq%.606$RP3.1...@news2.atl.bellsouth.net>...
>
> Allen Kitchen wrote in message <01bd6d6d$31d69050$8f301bc6@spgspare>...
> >> Secondly, Skytech is absolutely right. Do you want to see more women
in
> >> fandom? Then create works that will attract them.
Uh, I didn't write that... Someone lost a level of quote someplace.
> This, for a male, is easier said than done. My cousin often says my
stories
> would be better if there was an romantic edge. But, its hard to be
romantic
> if when you try to be romantic you feel like you're being an old fogey
(at
> the age of 16). But not all women want romance, and not all men want sex.
Writing erotic stories and love scenes were the hardest (no pun! get
back!)
for me to learn. How'd I do it? First, I read other peoples works. Then
I
just gritted my teeth and wrote my own. Yes, I was very nervous about
writing an erotic story since I knew my sunday school class will somehow
get wind of it. It's been 18 months, and nobody anywhere has been
offended.
If your stories could benefit from a bit of love-interest, then consider
writing
a short romantic story to get the techniques down. If you need to, write a
couple of stories. Personally, I think the great stories all have a little
bit
of everything. Love, hate, moments of brilliance, acts of stupidity,
fights,
quiet moments...
> >As a fellow furry writer, who gets the same amount of respect, (heh)
>
> Hmm, there isn't much respect for furry writers because people do the old
> 5th grader thing. "Hey, where's the pictures?" And 'sides, who (in
general)
> wants to spend all night reading a story when they could look at a
picture
> in under a minute?
I enjoy both. I'm still working on Fire Margins. Thick book. Big Book.
And there are two more to go? Agggh. But it's easier to go to sleep
reading a book than it is roaming around Yiffco... I don't have to close
programs, shut the book down, and get it off my lap without dropping
it while half asleep.
> Too often than not, fans are painted as these Beavis and Butthead type of
> people.
> "Huh huh huh! Hey Butt-head, that chick has real tail!"
> "Come to Butt-head..."
Not all fans... But some certainly earn the "Bad Housekeeping Seal".
There is at least a kernel of truth to the stereotype. I don't lable all
fans as fanboys. Just the rude, abusive, not-a-clue, where are her tits
type.
Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
Louis Lightpaw
Allen Kitchen wrote in message <01bd6e23$f62e1d90$8f301bc6@spgspare>...
>Uh, I didn't write that... Someone lost a level of quote someplace.
>
Oh, I knew you didn't write it, I was just responding in general. Sorry.
>Writing erotic stories and love scenes were the hardest (no pun! get
>back!)
No pun taken.
>If your stories could benefit from a bit of love-interest, then consider
>writing
>a short romantic story to get the techniques down. If you need to, write a
>couple of stories. Personally, I think the great stories all have a little
>bit
>of everything. Love, hate, moments of brilliance, acts of stupidity,
>fights,
>quiet moments...
>
True True... I have been expirementing though.
>I enjoy both. I'm still working on Fire Margins. Thick book. Big Book.
>And there are two more to go? Agggh. But it's easier to go to sleep
>reading a book than it is roaming around Yiffco... I don't have to close
>programs, shut the book down, and get it off my lap without dropping
>it while half asleep.
>
true, but those with printers who don't give a care about ink/toner could
just print out evrything...
>Not all fans... But some certainly earn the "Bad Housekeeping Seal".
>There is at least a kernel of truth to the stereotype. I don't lable all
>fans as fanboys. Just the rude, abusive, not-a-clue, where are her tits
>type.
>
>Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
Oh! I wasn't saying all fans. I was saying that's how the fandom gets
painted as. Too many people figure we all want sex right now.
Louis Lightpaw
Yealurowluro
On <Apr 22 06:45>, m...@netcom.com (Mel. White) wrote;
MW>: Tim Gadd wrote:
: > OTOH 50% of ALF's top 10 posters last month were female.
MW>: Then again, not every female is female there...
MW>: --
MW>---------------
MW>(g) Nor is every male a RL male (I'm a shining example of that).
MW>Playing a male character has many advantages from a woman's
MW>standpoint, and almost no disadvantages.
While some of us use names that are downright ambiguous unless the reader
happens to know us. Though to be honest the main reason I use Yealurowluro
in here is that it makes it easier to detect inbound spam. Heck, sometimes
if it weren't for the fact that my every post in here is followed by a rush
of spam in the mailbox I'd wonder if they got through at all. I don't get
many responses in here unless I make a typo or something.
(Of course if I were to describe Yealurowluro the reader would probably
figure it out - H'reli queens have breasts more like those of a
non-lactating terrestrial housecat, whereas many females run by male
players tend to suffer from mammalian hypertrophy. :->)
Regan S. Pylman
William Haskell
Tim Gadd wrote:
>
> cin...@los-angeles.crosswinds.net (Angel Ryan) wrote:
>
> >Me and my brother have are engaged in an arguement that I think the
> >fandom can settle. What is the approximate ratio of men to women in the
> >fandom? Are there more males than females? I think anyone who has been to
> >a ConFURence can answer this question quite simply.
>
>
> was 8:1 My survey of the newsgroup in 1996 made it 7:1.
> OTOH 50% of ALF's top 10 posters last month were female.
>
Has anyone thought to check out the uploads at The Furry Art Site
Formerly Known As SCFA (AKA Yerf)? The F/M ratio, so far as I can see,
is pretty much about half & half or thereabouts.
Regan S. Pylman
As an aside, I don't think I've had a discussion this long on usenet since
the late '80's. 8)
In article <01bd6df0$131ba780$8f301bc6@spgspare>,
Allen Kitchen <all...@blkbox.com> wrote:
>
>Oddly enough, I get the same number of complements for my
>regular stories as I do for my erotic works. As I've only written 2
>eros pieces, that may have something to do with it. But yes, the
>written works are sex-laden just as the drawn works are.
I've been writing Tails of the City, which (for those who haven't yet read
it) is rated PG, for going on eight months now, at a rate of an episode
every week (Why yes, there will be a new episode this Friday, thank you
for asking 8). It took a good three months before I got any feedback
email on it (and I was quite surprised and flattered to get it!).
I think that most people who read things, don't bother to say anything to
the author, weather it's on the web, or in print. I haven't discussed the
phenomenon with my girlfriend, so I don't know if artists get any more
feedback... but at lease with Melissa, she knows what sells at cons,
whereas I... well, we've already discussed that. 8)
>Perhaps Miavir could put up a Kid-friendly page on his site that
>people can link to, and nothing sexual is mentioned. Sorta like
>a YERF/scfa page for writers...
You know, that seems like a really good idea. I'll suggest that, the next
time we talk.
>I get the blues sometimes since I can't join the artists in
>drawing cute characters back and forth.
Let me make two statements here. 1) I admire artists for what they do.
Goddess knows that if you could buy artistic talent, I'd eat beans for a
year to get the money. 2) I love my girlfriend maddly. I think that the
sun rises and sets on Melissa, and I have spent /many/ happy hours
watching her draw, and looking at the results. I have pictures of hers
framed, in my bedroom.
With those two things said, and established... this last ConFurence,
there was only one time when I really had a sense of being very much an
outsider looking in, and not being welcome, at that. It was Saturday
night, after the ice-cream social, when the Anthropomorphic Artists for
World Domination were sitting around laughing and drawing together. I
wished I could be a part of that, but I didn't have the price of
admission... the ablity to draw.
> But I've come to realize
>not many of them can create a story front middle and end. Everyone
>has their talent, and writers are no less gifted than the artists. So
>don't let that person bring you down.
8)
If /anyone/ knows how hard it is to keep a story coherent, it's me.
Writing is an art, a craft, and it's /just/ as hard as anything else I've
ever done. (And I've had a lot of hard, crappy jobs in my time, let me
tell you). You don't magicly write because some muse comes and sprinkles
you with fairy dust. You write because you sit down, and you /do/ it.
>BTW: did you know in SciFi fandom, it is the writers who are revered,
>and the artists who get ignored? :)
/laugh/
I'm going to the wrong cons! Oh, no!
>Don't let the visual-heavy nature of furryfandom stop you from enjoying
>it, or from writing within it. We need all the writers we can get.
I've taken a great deal of pleasure from my association with other furry
writers. I think that, even if the con doesn't organize something for
writers next year, maybe some of us who write should just get together,
and do it ourselves.
>Especially people who know how to craft a good tall tail tale :)
>Write for yourself, and for your friends. Show it to everyone: we
>appreciate it. And if you are burning out, walk away a few weeks.
One thing that I didn't anticipate, when I launched into 'Tails of the
City', was just /how long/ fifty weeks was, and what that meant in terms
of living with the characters every day. I write week by week, despite
the fact that I keep /trying/ to get a week or two in advance. That means
that every week, for the last eight months, I've had Michelle, Stacie,
Mirrium and David running loose in my head, trying to tell me their
stories. I love them, and I love doing TotC... but I think when I wrap
things up, around episode 50, I'm going to be glad... and I think they'll
be glad to see the last of me for a while, too!
>I tend to read alot when in Down mode, and it always gets my
>juices flowing again.
This is the most important advice I can give to aspiring writers. (She
stops, reads that again, and then laughs at herself for making a statement
like that). READ! Read stuff that's in your genre, read stuff that
/isn't/ in your genre! /nothing/ is ever wasted! Everything you learn
can be used in a story, and makes your writing deeper.
I /know/ that for me at least, creativity is the art of concealing your
sources!
>Lots of furs care. But this IS a visual heavy genre, and we must
>accept that. I view it as a challenge: to write something SO
>intense and powerful I can tear people away from the eyecandy
>for awhile. Not easy to do, granted. But if you can pull it off here,
>then you can grab an audience anywhere.
I'm hoping to sell an actual printed novel in the next two years. Wish me
luck. The things that I've learned doing TotC have made me a much better,
more confident writer.
>CF9 had the discussion with Lissane Norman, which was fantastic.
That was a lot of fun. I was there... the tall, ugly girl sitting on the
floor?
>Also the Erotic Story sig with Elf, but I missed that :(. I'm thinking
Elf and I also cohosted a sig about internet serials, and actually managed
to stay (mostly) on topic. Elf and I don't agree about many things, but I
like him a lot, and I admire the way he expresses himself. (Hi, Elf!)
I'll always be happy to find myself on a pannel with him.
>Sadly, I won't be at CF10. I can't make it except every other year. :(
Well, then I'll see you at 11! 8)
>Great idea! I'll try that. Thanks!
Writing stories in sketchbooks was a hoot. I tried to work in the
person's personal fur, if I knew them, and they seemed to enjoy that.
Mostly what I did were just little vignettes about things that happened at
the con... I think people liked that, because it was something to help
them remember the experience.
And yes, I fully intend to do it again, next year. If you see a tall,
ugly chick walking around with a furpride pin, she's most likely me. And
if you come up, and smile, and ask politely, I'll write you a story. 8)
William Haskell
Victry "Vixy" Hyzenthlay wrote:
>
> >It probably has to do with inborn natural tendencies of Homo Sapiens.
> >I've heard it said men are naturally attracted to females with
> >larger breasts because they might nurse offspring better. There are
> >no end of analyses availible.
>
> Well, I don't know the what the background is for that particular
> attraction is either, but I can confirm that males flock to the fems with
> overly abundant mamaries. ;)
> Though curiously, there are still a fair number of males who prefer moderation
> in proportions. Is there hope? *grin*
>
I've seen any number of women who were really quite top-heavy, and
generally all that passes my mind is "Ooooh*OUCH* Upper back pain!" Not
much of a turn-on, as you can imagine.
Regan S. Pylman
In article <Ocq%.606$RP3.1...@news2.atl.bellsouth.net>,
Louis Lightpaw <elm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>I said, and Allen quoted me in message<01bd6d6d$31d69050$8f301bc6@spgspare>...
>>> Secondly, Skytech is absolutely right. Do you want to see more women in
>>> fandom? Then create works that will attract them.
>
>would be better if there was an romantic edge. But, its hard to be romantic
>if when you try to be romantic you feel like you're being an old fogey (at
>the age of 16). But not all women want romance, and not all men want sex.
First of all, I (vaguely) remember what it was like to be 16, and yeah,
you're right. When my mother drags out stories that I wrote at that age,
I groan, and can't bear to look at them. But you're doing something
/important/ right now, Louis... you're gaining experience, and working
your craft.
Now is the time to expirement. If it's hard for you to write something,
that's probably a good sign that it's something you need to work on. So
do... sit down, and right the sappiest, dopiest, most romantic story you
can think of. If it's hard, think about /why/ it's hard for you.
Then write something less sappy, but still romantic. Eventually, you'll
get a good feel for what works, and what doesn't. And... I'm sorry... I
/hated/ it when people said this to me, when I was your age... but a lot
of experience in life is going to teach you what works and doesn't in your
writing, as well.
>how much you wanna bet that Yiffco recives more hits in a day, than Miavir's
>does in a week? And to take it further: How much do you bet that The things
>marked adult, S or N, or not for minors recieve more hits than the rest.
My friend Zjonny had an interesting statement about that, which I think
deserves repeating. He said that a certain percentage of the people who
consume furry art are doing so because it's sexually explicit, /not/
because it's furry. Whereas the people who read my stories, or look at
the other sections of Yiffco, or look at Yerf.com, for instnace, are
probably there primarily because it's furry... so the spooge has a bigger
audience.
>Remember: If you catch anything she throws at you, it's yours to keep!
>(unless you catch it with your head)
They're married. It was half his, anyway.
>Too often than not, fans are painted as these Beavis and Butthead type of
>people.
>"Huh huh huh! Hey Butt-head, that chick has real tail!"
>"Come to Butt-head..."
Since I made the comment that started this, I'm going to clarify. While
sitting at Melissa's table, I met a /lot/ of very nice people, many of
them male. Well, considering the ratio, /most/ of them male. I also had
the misfortune, while wondering around the dealer's den, to meet the sort
of people you're refering to here. There were /two/ guys who gave me a
hard time, out of the thousand or so who were there.
Seems like a pretty good ratio to me, and as long as it stays that way,
I'll go on meeting fans.
ilr
> I do, but it often appears that nobody cares to hear me. *sigh*
>
> ermine
> [undo the Knot to Reply.]
>
Don't let the invisibility of the unseen fool you. Your words fall on many
of
our ears like Gospel. Please excuse our inclination's to refrain from
yelling
"Hallelujah!", but many of us wouldn't even be in the fandom if we weren't
some
what intimidated by women.
Sincerely,
ilr.
HStCloud
>From: Lisa Jennings <Same...@SamePlace.com>
>Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 11:22 EDT
>Message-id: <353E0B4A...@SamePlace.com>
>> Femfurs out there! Stop lurking and voice your opinions!
>
>I do, but it often appears that nobody cares to hear me. *sigh*
>
>ermine
>[undo the Knot to Reply.]
></PRE></HTML>
Hey, I already put my two cents worth in; I know exactly how you feel . . . of
course, with todays' inflation, may be more like two bits or two bucks . . .
(Before anyone butts in, yeah, I know, two bucks might be marvelous! Then
again, maybe not . . . )
Joy Riddle
HStCloud
>Yealur...@524.salata.com (Yealurowluro)
>Date: Wed, Apr 22, 1998 15:01 EDT
>Message-id: <e5a_980...@salata.com
>MW>(g) Nor is every male a RL male (I'm a shining example of that).
> MW>Playing a male character has many advantages from a woman's
> MW>standpoint, and almost no disadvantages.
>
>While some of us use names that are downright ambiguous unless the reader
>happens to know us.
Yup, I know both K'has and you, Yealu . . . but sometimes I get the feeling
people don't quite know what to think of me!
Didn't think I'd gafiated for that long, but guess I did . . .
Harry the Horse/Joy Riddle
Dr. Cat
Skytech (sky...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Dr. Cat wrote:
: >
: > The survey is at http://members.xoom.com/woodsong/furcadia/results.html
: > if anybody wants to view all the latest results, presented as colorful
: > pie graphs. There's also a link to it from the http://furre.base.org page.
: >
: No survey, just 'Hello world'.
I know the actual charts pages use Java, maybe the index page does too,
or some other fancy stuff that won't work in all browsers. I just tried
it in lynx and it wouldn't work at all. I didn't see "Hello world" though.
It works fine with Netscape 3, I suspect it would work with Netscape 4,
IE 3 or IE4 too, more than likely.
*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
Dr. Cat / Dragon's Eye Productions || Free alpha test:
*-------------------------------------------** http://www.bga.com/furcadia
Furcadia - a new graphic mud for PCs! || Let your imagination soar!
*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
(Disclaimer: Lynx is also the publisher of Pawprints. He only
moonlights as a web browser program.)
Skytech
ilr wrote:
>
> > I do, but it often appears that nobody cares to hear me. *sigh*
> >
> > ermine
> > [undo the Knot to Reply.]
> >
>
> of our ears like Gospel. Please excuse our inclination's to refrain from
> yelling "Hallelujah!", but many of us wouldn't even be in the fandom if
>
I concur with both Allen and ilr. The obvious trail of replies to your posts on
many ngs shows you are heard.
I don't have tons of replies to my posts but I can assume I say something people
at least read. A flurry of replies doesn't mean you are ignored nor does it mean
you're being ignored because you're a female.
To all the fems out there, write on!
--
La kasigada vulpo
Skytech
^^
<@@>
./
Skytech
Regan S. Pylman wrote:
>
> In article <353DCF86...@ix.netcom.com>,
> Skytech <sky...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
>
>
Well, not according to the back posts. I just feel there may be many more out
there thinking they're mot wanted. UNTRUE!
Come on up to the AFF campfire, set a spell, and speak your mind.
Skytech
Allen Kitchen wrote:
>
> Sorry Sky. I wasn't trying to hurt your feelings. But being Male
> isn't carte blanche to be offensive. I'm Male, and I don't act
> obnoxious in public. Well, as far as you know I don't :)
>
Oh, sorry about that then. My feelings aren't that hurtable. It kinda sounded
like a blanket condemnation of the whole because of the actions of a few.
Problem is, it's those obnoxious few who stand out. I find it amazing how
quickly and easily people *in general* want to identify others with the worst
associations, real or imagined.
And yes, Shockwave, I'm trying to be absolutely clear that I'm not singling you
out! :)
Skytech
Pictures are worth a thousand words and it can be read in a glance.
I would like to be able to read what's on the net more often. The problem is
often time. Pictures take seconds to take in. Text needs to be viewed or printed
out and read at one's leasure. A lot of stories to be read can be daunting.
I do try to read so don't give up on text media.
Skytech
Dr. Cat wrote:
>
> Skytech (sky...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> : Dr. Cat wrote:
> : No survey, just 'Hello world'.
>
> I know the actual charts pages use Java, maybe the index page does too,
> or some other fancy stuff that won't work in all browsers. I just tried
> it in lynx and it wouldn't work at all. I didn't see "Hello world" though.
> It works fine with Netscape 3, I suspect it would work with Netscape 4,
> IE 3 or IE4 too, more than likely.
>
Hm. Interesting. I have NS4 with Java enabled....
Let's try again. Whoa! There it is! The Furre (cute) Survey. Must have been down
for a bit.
Ne-ver mind! :)
--
La kasigada vulpo
Skytech
^^
<@@>
.)
Lisa Jennings
If you wanna do _that_, try looking at Yiffco as well. As one of the
females in this fandom who _doesn't_ upload to the SCFA, I wouldn't be
represented. At least Yiffco is looking at SCFA as well as Velan and
Avatar and such... a larger sampling and not just limited by content. :3
That still wouldn't take into account the Pros out there like Mel.
White, Daphnie Lage, Terrie Smith, Diane Harlan Stine, Heather Bruton,
Alicia Austin, Tygger, and other female artists who just don't _have_
uploadable images or a website or whatever you want to use on the
Internet to determine gender ratios...
ermine
[Undo the Knot to Reply.]
Lisa Jennings
Hey! I resemble that remark! :3
And as a point of fact, it's not _upper_ back pain, it's _lower_ back
pain. You know, gravity and all that... the spine we have wasn't meant
for vertical support and having a significant weight high above the
center of gravity (the hips on a woman) adds pressure along the spine to
deal with it.
This is why we're much happier in a horizontal position (pun intended!)
:D
Lisa Jennings
Yealurowluro wrote:
> On <Apr 22 06:45>, m...@netcom.com (Mel. White) wrote;
> MW>: Tim Gadd wrote:
> : > OTOH 50% of ALF's top 10 posters last month were female.
> MW>: Then again, not every female is female there...
> MW>: --
> MW>---------------
> MW>Playing a male character has many advantages from a woman's
> MW>standpoint, and almost no disadvantages.
>
> While some of us use names that are downright ambiguous unless the reader
> in here is that it makes it easier to detect inbound spam. Heck, sometimes
> of spam in the mailbox I'd wonder if they got through at all. I don't get
> many responses in here unless I make a typo or something.
Well, at least a few of us are sputtering over our keyboards in giggles
and don't get around to writing a reply to you, Yealu... take it as a
compliment! :3
> (Of course if I were to describe Yealurowluro the reader would probably
> figure it out - H'reli queens have breasts more like those of a
> non-lactating terrestrial housecat, whereas many females run by male
> players tend to suffer from mammalian hypertrophy. :->)
This is at least partially because of the lack of documentation about
those tiny details... things like the size of Altani footpads and Bjoran
hands and such... I promise, if you give me those details I'll try and
send them off to the artists for the Second Edition, okay?
ermine (who never drew a H'reli female with tits because she thought
they were just uprighted cats, not 'furries'... adds more confusion to
the non-H'reli, which H'reli can appreciate.)
Kese
Lisa Jennings wrote:
> That still wouldn't take into account the Pros out there like Mel.
> White, Daphnie Lage, Terrie Smith, Diane Harlan Stine, Heather Bruton,
> Alicia Austin, Tygger, and other female artists who just don't _have_
> uploadable images or a website or whatever you want to use on the
> Internet to determine gender ratios...
I would think that using the internet in general to gauge the ratio of male
to female furry fans would be a bad idea. Not everyone has access to a computer
and many are probably like myself a couple of years ago. An anthro fan and artist,
without being aware that there was such a thing as an organized(well, somewhat
organized anyway;) fandom or even a name for it. Probably the ratio is closer to
50/50 with this taken into account. It is strange though, that most of the online
female fans are artists though.
margaret
>
>
> ermine
Allen Kitchen
Regan S. Pylman <azr...@studio.watertower.com> wrote in article
<7922DFB16551ABED.70E75339...@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t>...
>
> As an aside, I don't think I've had a discussion this long on usenet
since
> the late '80's. 8)
Awwww. the new crowd aren't ALL bad :)
> >Perhaps Miavir could put up a Kid-friendly page on his site that
> >people can link to, and nothing sexual is mentioned. Sorta like
> >a YERF/scfa page for writers...
>
> You know, that seems like a really good idea. I'll suggest that, the
next
> time we talk.
I haven't chatted with Miavir in months. Been so busy
lately, and going to be even busier this month. I need
to drop him an email and just say 'Ni'... no, 'Hi'. (I always
get those two confused :)
> With those two things said, and established... this last ConFurence,
> there was only one time when I really had a sense of being very much an
> outsider looking in, and not being welcome, at that. It was Saturday
> night, after the ice-cream social, when the Anthropomorphic Artists for
> World Domination were sitting around laughing and drawing together. I
> wished I could be a part of that, but I didn't have the price of
> admission... the ablity to draw.
I didn't make the social. But I know the feeling. If I could draw as
well as write, oh the graphic stories I could create! I know what
you are feeling. I get that way now and then myself: envious. It
passes. But none of the artists ever made me feel bad for not being
able to draw. In fact, a couple have helped me try to learn. I
just can't make the fingers do it.
> >BTW: did you know in SciFi fandom, it is the writers who are revered,
> >and the artists who get ignored? :)
>
> /laugh/
>
> I'm going to the wrong cons! Oh, no!
Oh no! I hope you'll keep coming to the furry ones! :)
> I've taken a great deal of pleasure from my association with other furry
> writers. I think that, even if the con doesn't organize something for
> writers next year, maybe some of us who write should just get together,
> and do it ourselves.
I won't be at CF10... It is too difficult and expensive to make it every
year. I'm going to the Memphis Furmeet this laborday though. I
think I'll setup the same thing you are talking about. We already
have an ALF get together planned.
> One thing that I didn't anticipate, when I launched into 'Tails of the
> City', was just /how long/ fifty weeks was, and what that meant in terms
> of living with the characters every day.
*vbg* After awhile you just want to walk away from the story
and hope it writes itself. Yes, I know the feeling. I don't think
I could do a weekly serial, ever. Too much interferes in my life
to promise such a schedule. Your doing good, and keeping
to the timeframe you set out. Well done.
> I'm hoping to sell an actual printed novel in the next two years. Wish
me
> luck. The things that I've learned doing TotC have made me a much
better,
> more confident writer.
Absolutely! Good luck to you! Hope you can make it. I write
for fun, and while I'd love to become good enough to sell a novel,
I don't want to go pro. If I had to write for a living, I'd grow to hate
it. Writing is my escape.
> >CF9 had the discussion with Lissane Norman, which was fantastic.
>
> That was a lot of fun. I was there... the tall, ugly girl sitting on the
> floor?
Ugly? There must have been another tall girl sitting on the floor
that I missed :) I was there too. The guy in the green flightsuit
with a black tail sticking out. I'd just taken off my facefur because
it was about to send me into overtemp.
And no, I'm not a fursuiter. I just toyed with it this con, and
decided clothes and tails will be enough for me. Full suits
require too many resources and time that I need for other
pursuits. Not fursuits pursuits... :)
> Writing stories in sketchbooks was a hoot. I tried to work in the
> person's personal fur, if I knew them, and they seemed to enjoy that.
> Mostly what I did were just little vignettes about things that happened
at
> the con... I think people liked that, because it was something to help
> them remember the experience.
>
> And yes, I fully intend to do it again, next year. If you see a tall,
> ugly chick walking around with a furpride pin, she's most likely me. And
> if you come up, and smile, and ask politely, I'll write you a story. 8)
Only if I get to do the same for you :)
Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
http://www.blkbox.com/~osprey/
Allen Kitchen
Lisa Jennings <Same...@SamePlace.com> wrote in article
<353F3EAB...@SamePlace.com>...
> > I've seen any number of women who were really quite top-heavy, and
> > generally all that passes my mind is "Ooooh*OUCH* Upper back pain!" Not
> > much of a turn-on, as you can imagine.
>
> Hey! I resemble that remark! :3
>
> And as a point of fact, it's not _upper_ back pain, it's _lower_ back
> pain. You know, gravity and all that... the spine we have wasn't meant
> for vertical support and having a significant weight high above the
> center of gravity (the hips on a woman) adds pressure along the spine to
> deal with it.
>
> This is why we're much happier in a horizontal position (pun intended!)
*snicker*
While thinking about my sore back this day,
a colorful fur lady came to me to say...
"Don't pine for your spine. Don't weep and whine,
though standing erect was not it's design.
Tis not the upper but lower that aches,
as all torque fore and above, that spot takes.
You're just a man... (could you look at my eyes please?)
You'll never know what it's like, carrying these.
And if you think it so easy, then hear this pal:
In your next life may you come back as a GAL!"
Allen Kitchen, feeling a bit silly this morning. :)
HStCloud
>From: "Allen Kitchen" <all...@blkbox.com>
>Date: Thu, Apr 23, 1998 09:05 EDT
>Message-id: <01bd6eb6$8858dbf0$8f301bc6@spgspare>
>
>
> If I could draw as
>well as write, oh the graphic stories I could create!
Not all artists are good at drawing panel art . . . I'm one of them. A graphic
novel is probably way beyond my abilities.
Illos, pinups, yeah, I can do those -- covers, too -- but when I try to do
sequential art, it's hard. Single panel zaps for Bizarre Wars, maybe two
panels, those are simpler; but to do several panel pages to tell a story --
that's a lot of work! And they don't usually end up the way I invision them,
either . . .
Joy Riddle
Jack Furlong - Artist/MUCKer
In article <7922DFB16551ABED.70E75339...@library-proxy.airnews.net>, azr...@studio.watertower.com (Regan S. Pylman) wrote:
>if you come up, and smile, and ask politely, I'll write you a story. 8)
Promise? <grin>
> http://www.vixensinblack.org/~azrael
I followed the link, and started in on TOTC...Damn good story... :)
Recommended!
Jack Furlong - Artist/MUCKer
In article <199804231558...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, hstc...@aol.com (HStCloud) wrote:
>>From: "Allen Kitchen" <all...@blkbox.com>
>>Date: Thu, Apr 23, 1998 09:05 EDT
>>Message-id: <01bd6eb6$8858dbf0$8f301bc6@spgspare>
>Not all artists are good at drawing panel art . . . I'm one of them. A graphic
>novel is probably way beyond my abilities.
You're not the only one...I'm great on pinups, but the few
abortive attempts I've made at comics have stank, IMHO.
( which is why no one'll ever see em... :P )
Yealurowluro
On <Apr 23 06:35>, Kese <soll...@mindspring.com> wrote;
K>50/50 with this taken into account. It is strange though, that
K>most of the online
K>female fans are artists though.
Near as I can tell, so are most of the online MALE fans. It's a very
artist heavy fandom.
Tygger L. Graf
Lisa Jennings wrote in message <353F3D5A...@SamePlace.com>...
>That still wouldn't take into account the Pros out there like Mel.
>White, Daphnie Lage, Terrie Smith, Diane Harlan Stine, Heather Bruton,
>Alicia Austin, Tygger, and other female artists who just don't _have_
>uploadable images or a website or whatever you want to use on the
>Internet to determine gender ratios...
*delurks with a *lot* of uneasiness*
I'm on Velan, Yiffco, Tigerden, and FurNation. Just mirrored my stuff on
Tripod, on Captain Packrat's site...my older works are at these sites.
*snugs the ermine then submerges again in silent running*
--Tygger L. Graf
Regan S. Pylman
In article <01bd6eb6$8858dbf0$8f301bc6@spgspare>,
/laugh/
I didn't say they were. I've just mostly wandered away from usenet. I
think there's a certain cyclic nature to things here, and after a while,
you get tired of listening to the same four arguments ad nausium.
>I didn't make the social. But I know the feeling. If I could draw as
>well as write, oh the graphic stories I could create! I know what
/grin/
I wrote the first two chapters of a comic script (They're on my web page,
if anyone's interested), but couldn't find an artist. Someone finaly
volunteered, but then vanished. I don't know what his status is, but I've
kind of given up on the comic.
I may turn the core idea into my next serial. 8)
>Oh no! I hope you'll keep coming to the furry ones! :)
I'm actually pretty shy, in person. It takes a great deal of effort for
me to psych myself into going to a con, and the only reason I managed with
CF was that I already knew a number of people there. I can't imagine
facing a Sci-Fi con, with no one I knew in attendance.
>I won't be at CF10... It is too difficult and expensive to make it every
>year. I'm going to the Memphis Furmeet this laborday though. I
>think I'll setup the same thing you are talking about. We already
>have an ALF get together planned.
September 5th is my 30th birthday. It's Saturday of labor day weekend.
As you gather, think of me. 8)
>Absolutely! Good luck to you! Hope you can make it. I write
>for fun, and while I'd love to become good enough to sell a novel,
>I don't want to go pro. If I had to write for a living, I'd grow to hate
>it. Writing is my escape.
I don't know if I could make a living from writing. I know David Drake,
and I've seen where he lives, and it's a nice place... but he's also David
Drake, and he sells an average of 2.5 books a year to a publisher, and,
well, he's one of the biggest names in Sci-Fi, right now.
If I were to be in his shoes... well, I'd be happy. but I'm not counting
on it.
>Ugly? There must have been another tall girl sitting on the floor
>that I missed :) I was there too. The guy in the green flightsuit
>with a black tail sticking out. I'd just taken off my facefur because
>it was about to send me into overtemp.
Ah, yes, I remember... I remember thinking the flight suit was clever,
because it had a tail pocket! 8)
>Only if I get to do the same for you :)
/laugh/
It's a deal.
Regan S. Pylman
In article <6hnrnt$3o1$1...@crucigera.fysh.org>,
Jack Furlong - Artist/MUCKer <jfur...@ix.comnet.com> wrote:
>In article <7922DFB16551ABED.70E75339...@library-proxy.airnews.net>, azr...@studio.watertower.com (Regan S. Pylman) wrote:
>
Wouldn't say it if I didn't mean it. 8)
I did three sketchbook stories at CF9... it'd thrill me no end to do five
or six times that many at CF10. In addition to being fun, I'm making a
point. 8)
>I followed the link, and started in on TOTC...Damn good story... :)
>Recommended!
Thanks!
Yealurowluro
On <Apr 23 06:23>, Lisa Jennings <Same...@SamePlace.com> wrote;
LJ>ermine (who never drew a H'reli female with tits because she
LJ>thought
LJ>they were just uprighted cats, not 'furries'... adds more
LJ>confusion to
LJ>the non-H'reli, which H'reli can appreciate.)
Oh phenotypically that's exactly what they are, same as Altani & L'drey are
foxes, Korli are squirrels/chipmunks, Bjora are bears and so forth. Most
of the mammaloid species in the Hegemony only have noticable breasts when
lactating, as do most terrestrian mammals. (In fact I just looked down the
intelligent species list in version 2, and the only two species I see with
pneumatic breasts are humans and Lydans, who could be mistaken for an
unfamiliar race of humans if you didn't look too closely.)
In fact if you want to be strictly accurate on modifying actual terrestrial
mammals, I believe the only paired pneumatic breasts (as opposed to udders)
you'll find are on humans and manatees. And elephants, sorta; leastwise if
you know where to look you can usually spot them on female elephants (up
front behind the front legs). Not that you need to look at breasts to tell
the difference, at least if the bull elephants I've seen are typical.
You'd swear they had a trunk at each end... :->
HStCloud
>From: jfur...@ix.comnet.com (Jack Furlong - Artist/MUCKer)
>Date: Thu, Apr 23, 1998 12:59 EDT
>Message-id: <6hnrqu$3o1$2...@crucigera.fysh.org>
>
>>Not all artists are good at drawing panel art . . . I'm one of them. A
>graphic
>>novel is probably way beyond my abilities.
>You're not the only one...I'm great on pinups, but the few
>abortive attempts I've made at comics have stank, IMHO.
>( which is why no one'll ever see em... :P )
Oh, I've got a few pages I tried to do comic book form; I'm not happy with
them, but others seemed to like them well enough . . .
Glad other artists have the same problems I do with sequential art!
Foxy
On 22 Apr 1998, Allen Kitchen wrote:
> just gritted my teeth and wrote my own. Yes, I was very nervous about
> writing an erotic story since I knew my sunday school class will somehow
> get wind of it. It's been 18 months, and nobody anywhere has been
> offended.
Same here - although, reading it back, the one I wrote (which was
published in a fanzine, but I ain't saying where! :)) is *terrible* -
makes me cringe.. I'd much rather people read my 'Betrayed' story in
Furvisions.
> I enjoy both. I'm still working on Fire Margins. Thick book. Big Book.
> And there are two more to go? Agggh. But it's easier to go to sleep
> reading a book than it is roaming around Yiffco... I don't have to close
> programs, shut the book down, and get it off my lap without dropping
> it while half asleep.
I just finished Fire Margins. Very cool, very hard to put down sort of book.
I don't know if anyone remembers, but I posted about having trouble
ordering the next of Lisanne's books, some time ago. Well, the bookstore
*still* haven't got the order through, a whole 2 months after I ordered it.
"oh, things take that long to get from America." I was reliably informed :)
/------------------------------------------------------
---Foxy!--- / "We must infiltrate, integrate with humans, using our
kp...@coventry.ac.uk / superior talents to gain control of their politics,
fo...@tigerden.com / their media of communication, their legends, their
Artist, furry fan / beliefs, so that, when the times comes, they will have
and Vulpophile! / been seduced to the acceptance of the inevitable, the
-----------------/ era of foxes."
Allen Kitchen
Regan S. Pylman <azr...@studio.watertower.com> wrote in article
<B46D0DECD4F03316.8B9C5541...@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t>...
> In article <01bd6eb6$8858dbf0$8f301bc6@spgspare>,
> I didn't say they were. I've just mostly wandered away from usenet. I
> think there's a certain cyclic nature to things here, and after a while,
> you get tired of listening to the same four arguments ad nausium.
Yeah, I've noticed that as well. But I'm tired of retreating
from AFF. So I've planted my feet and I'm gonna stay awhile.
> September 5th is my 30th birthday. It's Saturday of labor day weekend.
> As you gather, think of me. 8)
Come to the Memphis Furmeet, and I'll see to it the other
writers and I furnish you a wonderful birthday dinner! And
a cake. Going to a furrycon on my birthday; that would
be fantastic! :)
> >Ugly? There must have been another tall girl sitting on the floor
> >that I missed :) I was there too. The guy in the green flightsuit
> >with a black tail sticking out. I'd just taken off my facefur because
> >it was about to send me into overtemp.
>
> Ah, yes, I remember... I remember thinking the flight suit was clever,
> because it had a tail pocket! 8)
Well, can't have the tail flopping around when you are flying, now
can you? Tends to press buttons and abscure the vision. :)
Allen Kitchen
Foxy <kp...@coventry.ac.uk> wrote in article
<Pine.OSF.3.91.980424124519.31154B-100000@leofric>...
> On 22 Apr 1998, Allen Kitchen wrote:
>
>
> > just gritted my teeth and wrote my own. Yes, I was very nervous about
> > writing an erotic story since I knew my sunday school class will
somehow
> > get wind of it. It's been 18 months, and nobody anywhere has been
> > offended.
>
> Same here - although, reading it back, the one I wrote (which was
> published in a fanzine, but I ain't saying where! :)) is *terrible* -
> makes me cringe.. I'd much rather people read my 'Betrayed' story in
> Furvisions.
Writers (most of em anyway) share this much with artists: we never
think our material is good enough for others to see. Lisa Jennings
talks about a 2 week rule: if she can stand to look at it two weeks
later, it's done :) I sorta follow that myself, and that's why I write on
a computer. If I don't like something in the edit process, I change it
on the spot.
> I just finished Fire Margins. Very cool, very hard to put down sort of
book.
> I don't know if anyone remembers, but I posted about having trouble
> ordering the next of Lisanne's books, some time ago. Well, the bookstore
> *still* haven't got the order through, a whole 2 months after I ordered
it.
> "oh, things take that long to get from America." I was reliably informed
:)
Go online to Amazon.com
There is NO excuse for such a delay. I ordered a CD from
a CD house in England, and it arrived in only a week. Whoever
you ordered from is Yanking you (in more ways than one) and
you need to look elsewhere.
'things take that long from america...' Geez. Other than
justice and political reform, things move fast on this side of
the pond.
Allen Kitchen
Jim Doolittle
In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.980424124519.31154B-100000@leofric>, Foxy
<kp...@coventry.ac.uk> wrote:
> I just finished Fire Margins. Very cool, very hard to put down sort of book.
> I don't know if anyone remembers, but I posted about having trouble
> ordering the next of Lisanne's books, some time ago. Well, the bookstore
> *still* haven't got the order through, a whole 2 months after I ordered it.
> "oh, things take that long to get from America." I was reliably informed :)
Eef. And Lisanne Norman is an English author, no less.
-Jim
--
Jim Doolittle People demand freedom of speech to
dool...@uiuc.edu make up for the freedom of thought
-------------------------------- which they avoid.
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/doolittl -- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard
J. L. Eddy
On 22 Apr 1998 22:30:34 -0500, azr...@studio.watertower.com (Regan S.
Pylman) wrote:
>As an aside, I don't think I've had a discussion this long on usenet since
>the late '80's. 8)
Yeah... I go away from AFF for a couple months and now look what I find on
my return -- content! Will wonders never cease... :)
>I've been writing Tails of the City, which (for those who haven't yet read
>it) is rated PG, for going on eight months now, at a rate of an episode
>every week (Why yes, there will be a new episode this Friday, thank you
>for asking 8). It took a good three months before I got any feedback
>email on it (and I was quite surprised and flattered to get it!).
I've only managed to read one or two before getting interrupted by real
life, but I'm very impressed that you are able to keep such a good flow
going when having to produce every week without fail... I mean, you MUST
have days or weeks when you don't feel like working on it.
The fact that you can manage to produce something of the quality that you
do (from what I've seen anyway) EVERY WEEK is incredibly impressive!
>I think that most people who read things, don't bother to say anything to
>the author, weather it's on the web, or in print. I haven't discussed the
>phenomenon with my girlfriend, so I don't know if artists get any more
>feedback... but at lease with Melissa, she knows what sells at cons,
>whereas I... well, we've already discussed that. 8)
The bane of the net.writer -- and not only in regards to furrydom. I think
a big part of the problem is that most people have to read things offline.
I much prefer to have paper in hand than try to get any sense of the pace
of the writing off a computer screen.
Due to this, it's perhaps some time between reading a piece and the next
time they are doing email -- making it less likely that they will comment.
A picture you can look at in a browser, then flip to the email client and
fire off comments.
As for selling, it's hard to "sell" a written product. At the bare minimum
you need to have some sort of jacket art before it's attractive to most,
and the actual cost of producing a bound volume makes the necessary price
(in small batches) prohibitive. You could just print and staple, but
where's the incentive to purchase then?
Artists simply have a more saleable product than writers do -- at least at
the amateur level.
>I'm hoping to sell an actual printed novel in the next two years. Wish me
>luck. The things that I've learned doing TotC have made me a much better,
>more confident writer.
Indeed I do wish you luck! I have a lot of respect for people that can
actually be disciplined enough to
>Writing stories in sketchbooks was a hoot. I tried to work in the
>person's personal fur, if I knew them, and they seemed to enjoy that.
>Mostly what I did were just little vignettes about things that happened at
>the con... I think people liked that, because it was something to help
>them remember the experience.
Heh. I'm WAY too slow on the draw for this sort of thing. It'd take me too
long to even begin to create a vignette (especially not really knowing the
character), especially with all the confusion going on around me.
I'm also married to my word-processor at this point. *grin* I've worked in
electronic form for so long that I find myself unable to hand write stories
anymore. The "effort" of actually writing is totally distracting to me,
since I can type and edit and change on the fly in the word processor 1000
times faster...
>And yes, I fully intend to do it again, next year. If you see a tall,
>ugly chick walking around with a furpride pin, she's most likely me. And
>if you come up, and smile, and ask politely, I'll write you a story. 8)
Cool. I'm not likely to make CF anytime soon, but I'll definitely say
"Howdy" if'n you make Albany AnthroCon sometime... Always up for meeting
other writers, since we're such a rare breed. *chuckle*
-JLE
_______________________________________________________________________
J. L. Eddy (aka: "Brer" on FurToonia) <bfo...@ma.ultranet.com>
Story Stuff: <http://www.tiac.net/users/bfoxxe/tbu-contents.shtml>
Matt Squirrel
On Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:58:06 GMT, "Louis Lightpaw"
<elm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>Hmm, there isn't much respect for furry writers because people do the old
>5th grader thing. "Hey, where's the pictures?" And 'sides, who (in general)
>wants to spend all night reading a story when they could look at a picture
>in under a minute?
Uh, that'd be me! Lets see, I seem to have a whole folder in my
favourites section for writers, and, oooh, none for art! To me, the
writing is far more interesting than the art. The whole point of a
story is it's depth, and the longer they are the better. The first
thing I did when I found fur was trawl the 'net and Mia's index for as
many stories as I could find. So, I think the writers out there
should be well aware that I (and I'm sure many others) appreciate the
work you put in. Of course, I should really e-mail them all, but
considering the 13mb of stories on my HD that'd take awhile. : P
Matt Squirrel
Note: This is in no way a slur against artists, I still like piccies
too!!
Andrija Popovic
In article <01bd6f83$d0161930$8f301bc6@spgspare>, "Allen Kitchen"
<all...@blkbox.com> wrote:
> > Same here - although, reading it back, the one I wrote (which was
> > published in a fanzine, but I ain't saying where! :)) is *terrible* -
> > makes me cringe.. I'd much rather people read my 'Betrayed' story in
> > Furvisions.
>
> Writers (most of em anyway) share this much with artists: we never
> think our material is good enough for others to see. Lisa Jennings
> talks about a 2 week rule: if she can stand to look at it two weeks
> later, it's done :) I sorta follow that myself, and that's why I write on
> a computer. If I don't like something in the edit process, I change it
> on the spot.
I chatted with another writer the other day and he asked me, "Ever find a
really old piece of your work and just cringe as you read it?" Sitting
back I said, "I've picked up things I wrote two months ago and started
cringing."
Someone once said, and if you can find an atribution to this quote I'd be
very greateful, "Art is never finished, only abandoned." There comes a
point where everone has to put down their pencils, save their files and
let their children lose into the world.
Of course, this is fine talk from someone who's only shown his stories to
his friends. <smile>
> > I just finished Fire Margins. Very cool, very hard to put down sort of
> book.
> > I don't know if anyone remembers, but I posted about having trouble
> > ordering the next of Lisanne's books, some time ago. Well, the bookstore
> > *still* haven't got the order through, a whole 2 months after I ordered
> it.
> > "oh, things take that long to get from America." I was reliably informed
> :)
>
> Go online to Amazon.com
> There is NO excuse for such a delay. I ordered a CD from
> a CD house in England, and it arrived in only a week. Whoever
> you ordered from is Yanking you (in more ways than one) and
> you need to look elsewhere.
Actually, it depends on if the book is in print, or between print runs. If
they need to special order it from the publisher, it can take 4 to 6
weeks.
> 'things take that long from america...' Geez. Other than
> justice and political reform, things move fast on this side of
> the pond.
The publishing industry cares not for our needs. :) They publish when they
publish.
> Allen Kitchen
Andrian
--
Andrija Popovic (vu...@concentric.net)
http://www.concentric.net/~vuk6/index.html
"Dreams do not vanish, so long as people do not abandon them."
--Phantom F. Harlock _Arcadia of My Youth_
Allen Kitchen
> Actually, it depends on if the book is in print, or between print runs.
If
> they need to special order it from the publisher, it can take 4 to 6
> weeks.
The book is only a year old, and still quite in print. And, as somebody
pointed out, the author is even English! Tis not a quest for 30 year old
Cordwainer texts here. The book is current, and considered SciFi (and
furry, yes, but few bookstores know the meaning of that) and should
be readily available on the shelf.
> The publishing industry cares not for our needs. :) They publish when
they
> publish.
Gee, sounds like our legal system :)
Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
Jack Furlong - Artist/MUCKer
It's _not_ as easy as it looks, at least for me... Being so focussed in
the past on doing what I consider 'one-off' pictures means I'm not so
good on handling the kind of minimalist/speedy art style that comic
strips and books require... :P
I have nothing but respect for folks like Tygger who've managed the jump
to that kind of work... I've tried it, and I don't think I'm cut out for it.
HStCloud
>From: ab...@netcom.com.jfurlong.at.ix.netcom.com (Jack Furlong -
>Artist/MUCKer)
>Date: Fri, May 1, 1998 11:31 EDT
>Message-id: <6icq33$gr5$1...@crucigera.fysh.org>
>>Glad other artists have the same problems I do with sequential art!
>It's _not_ as easy as it looks, at least for me... Being so focussed in
>the past on doing what I consider 'one-off' pictures means I'm not so
>good on handling the kind of minimalist/speedy art style that comic
>strips and books require... :P
>I have nothing but respect for folks like Tygger who've managed the jump
>to that kind of work... I've tried it, and I don't think I'm cut out for it.
I doubt I'm cut out for extensive comic book style art, either; one or two
panel zaps is about all I manage anymore.
And I've been trying to come up with some pin-up ideas lately, but my regular
stable of characters (sorry, Harry!) don't want to co-operate . . . too much
media fan art right now, with MediaWest coming up soon . . .
Take care --
Joy-Joy