Psst! Hey, buddy...

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Hangdog

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Sep 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/8/99
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...you wanna buy a T-shirt?

http://members.tripod.com/~burnedfur/shirts.html

Fell off a truck. $17.00 plus S&H.

--Hangdog

Shon Howell

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Sep 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/8/99
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That's it?! You guys run your mouths all this time about how you're gonna
clean up this fandom & all you have to show for it is a lackluster t-shirt?!
I'm beginning to question my affiliation with this group...

BTW- "Hey, Buddy" was the name of a rather notorious japanese kiddie-porn mag
in the 80's( factoid courtesy of Fred Patten). Ironic...

"Remember kids, people who disagree with you aren't just wrong, they're
evil..."

Hangdog

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Sep 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/8/99
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Shon Howell wrote:

> That's it?! You guys run your mouths all this time about how you're gonna
> clean up this fandom & all you have to show for it is a lackluster t-shirt?!
> I'm beginning to question my affiliation with this group...

Well, we're also running CF 11, we raised $183 for the Heifer Project
International at AC 99, we published a fanzine which sold out its first printing,
and we maintain the second-biggest webring in the fandom (right after the Fur
Ring). Not bad for a movement that's one year old.

But if you have any ideas about what else we could do, we'd love to hear them.

> BTW- "Hey, Buddy" was the name of a rather notorious japanese kiddie-porn mag
> in the 80's( factoid courtesy of Fred Patten). Ironic...

Hm. Of that I was unaware: I have no interest in kiddie porn. I took the phrase
from the entirely wholesome criminal slang of the urban northeast. It's a
come-on usually used to sell stolen goods.

> "Remember kids, people who disagree with you aren't just wrong, they're
> evil..."

Though lightly offered, that statement is often quite true. It depends on the
point of disagreement.

--Hangdog

evil...@sodfurry.org

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Sep 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/8/99
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Shon Howell <cathe...@aol.com> wrote:
: That's it?! You guys run your mouths all this time about how you're gonna
: clean up this fandom & all you have to show for it is a lackluster t-shirt?!

"My group cleaned up Fandom and all I got was this lousey T-Shirt"

Patrice K. Garn

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Sep 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/8/99
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>From: Hangdog peter....@pdq.net
>Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 14:52:35 -0500
>Subject: Re: Psst! Hey, buddy...

>Well, we're also running CF 11.
Is that really true? My understanding is that Darrel is only a co-chair of
CF11 and just one of many people who run the entire event and of those, only he
supports Burned Furs.

>we raised $183 for the Heifer Project International at AC 99.
I do not wish to take away from the good intentions of your project, but many
more Furries, besides the Burned Furs, have done a great deal of work to raise
money for charity, and they commendable do not boast about it.

>we published a fanzine which sold out its first printing.
Again, that is no great accomplishment. Many Furries do the same and they are
not Burned Furs.

>we maintain the second-biggest webring in the fandom.
I suppose you can crow over that if you must crow about something. However,
isn't it true that the Totem Sig at AC99 received the largest gathering of any
Sig at the Con and the BF Sig at the same Con turned into an ugly screaming
match?

>Not bad for a movement that's one year old.

And not good. To be able to sum up your accomplishments after a year's worth
of work in one paragraph is nothing to boast about. Especially when your
entire group's effort cannot do better than individuals who accomplish more in
the every category. It all appears to be token attempts to look good in your
supporters eyes.

>But if you have any ideas about what else we could do, we'd love to hear
>them.

This is _the_ reason I am compelled to responded, and my _greatest_
disappointment in Burned Furs. I have seen dozens of wonderful, practical
ideas suggested to the Burned Furs for improving the Fandom, several of my own,
and I have not seen any of them put into use. What I have seen is Burned Furs
shooting them down as not practical or just ignoring them completely.

What little I do see of the Burned Furs attempts to do some good in the Fandom
looks very feeble. Other than being obstructive and destructive online, Burned
Furs have not done anything that would get me to support them, which is really
a shame.

My friend introduced me to the Burned Fur movement telling me that they were a
wonderful group who were trying to improve the image of Furry Fandom. I was
thrilled and very willing to help out. My practical experience, however, has
sadly proven that the Burned Furs are a lazy group who's core representatives
will do little more than raise their voice in anger while the remainder of the
members sit silently and support them with nothing but a link to their web
site.

And after looking over their web site, I am not surprised to find that there is
nothing indicating they will work towards improving the fandom. Only this
statement; 'WE SHALL institute ourselves as a monkey wrench in the gears of
mainstream fandom not to destroy it but to improve it.' comes close. But close
does not get the job done any more than 'a lackluster t-shirt'.

:::big-sigh::: Thank you; for nothing.

(Fur of Scale)
-Ny-

Nyehba

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Sep 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/8/99
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Hangdog

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Sep 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/8/99
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"Patrice K. Garn" wrote: 'a lackluster t-shirt'.

> <snip>

> :::big-sigh::: Thank you; for nothing.
>
> (Fur of Scale)
> -Ny-

While it may be, as you claim, that Burned Fur's contributions to the world are
less than those of other parts of the fandom, they are definitely not "nothing."

By the way, Mr/Ms. Garn, what have *you* done in the past year to alleviate hunger,
promote artistic creativity or provide an opportunity for fans and artists to
gather and socialize?

--Hangdog

Donald E. Sanders

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Sep 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/8/99
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In article <37D70AAF...@pdq.net>, peter....@pdq.net says...

I consider that a very loaded question. Not everyone can help alleviate
hunger if they don't have the means to do so. Not everyone can promote
artistic creativity if they themselves are not creative. As for
providing a gathering place, well, that goes without saying.

Then again, my very comments may be moot. I'm no expert on these
matters.

--
Don Sanders

Dsan Tsan on #furry of Yiffnet
RoadKill Fur (Sun baked sorta but not burned!)
Amateur Artist at Roll Yer Own Graphics
http://www.dreamscape.com/dsand101/dsan.htm
(my furry page) Email dsan...@future.dreamscape.com

Hangdog

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Sep 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/8/99
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Shon Howell wrote:

> >By the way, Mr/Ms. Garn, what have *you* done in the past year to
> >alleviate hunger, promote artistic creativity or provide an opportunity
> >for fans and artists to gather and socialize?
> >
> >

> >--Hangdog
> >
>
> You left out promote racial harmony and halt global warming. Appearantly, the
> BF movement is not only ineffectual, but delusional as well.

You're referring to my statement about alleviating hunger? The Heifer Hop at
AnthroCon '99, well-advertised in this NG and other online forums, raised a
rather nice chunk of change for The Heifer Project International (
http://www.heifer.org/ ).

In brief: HPI donates milk- or egg-producing livestock to impoverished villages
worldwide. The extra protein greatly improves the diets of local children,
resulting in lower infant mortality and healthier children generally. Surplus
milk, eggs, etc. may be sold for cash with which to make home improvements, buy
school supplies, and so forth. The villagers receive extensive instruction on
animal husbandry and continuing "customer support" from HPI volunteers, so that
the animals will prosper and the local environment won't be overgrazed (HPI also
donates trees and other services to repair past environmental degradation). The
livestock are *not* used for meat. Each family that receives a stock animal
(which animal is always female) promises to "pass on the gift" by in turn
donating one of that animal's offspring to another family--which promises to do
likewise.

It wasn't as if we fed the multitudes on three loaves and two fishes, but it was
something. And.I suppose the reforestation part of HPI's mission would address
the global warming issue ;o) As for racial harmony, well, I noticed that the
Burned Fur meeting was considerably more racially diverse than any congregation
of Lifestylers I've seen. Again, it's not much, but it's still
something--especially when compared to nothing.

Would anyone who dropped by the Heifer Hop or Burned Fur meeting care to
speculate on just how "delusional" this all may be? And no, the effects of
drinking a "Mad Cow" (two scoops of mocha-espresso ice cream in a tall glass of
Jolt Cola) do not count ;o)

> BTW, does the "provide an opportunity for fans and artists to gather and
> socialize" line mean ALL fans & artist or only THE RIGHT fans & artist? Just
> curious...

Exactly. We don't wish to provide a social forum for those who sexually abuse
animals, or those who condone such abuse. If you aren't in either group, and can
observe even a modicum of public decorum, come right in. Set a spell. Take yer
shoes off...

> "Remember kids, people who disagree with you aren't just wrong, they're
> evil..."

Hold still--there's an unintended irony crawling down your back...;o)

--Hangdog

Xydexx the Sesquipedalian Squeakypony

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Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
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[Sorry, but I just couldn't pass this up...]

Hangdog told us all the great things Burned Fur is doing:
> Well, we're also running CF 11,

"RUMOR CONTROL!!!! ConFurence is NOT being run by
*any* new organization! I have simply stated that
I am a Burned Fur, and you CAN *NOT* use that fact
to infer that the group 'Burned Furs' are running CF!"
---Darrel Exline, 04/27/99

> we raised $183 for the Heifer Project International at AC 99,

Good for you.

Do you think Burned Fur would've raised more money if they hadn't driven
away so many of your potential supporters in the months before AC99?

>we published a fanzine which sold out its first printing,

What kinda press run? 10 copies? 20?

> we maintain the second-biggest webring in the fandom

Actually, FurPride is the second biggest webring in the fandom, with 82
sites.
http://www.webring.org/cgi-bin/webring?ring=fpride;id=25;list

> Not bad for a movement that's one year old.

Hangdog, do you actually believe this stuff you're posting?

I hope not.

Have you considered the fact that in one year's time Burned Fur has
barely managed to attract 60 members?

I think Burned Fur's image problem is worse than anything they claim
they want to clean up. I think Burned Fur's lack of leadership,
inability to benefit from constructive criticism, and abysmal reputation
are the main reasons that so many people have wisely chosen to distance
themselves from Burned Fur.

To say Burned Fur is doing poorly is an understatement.

> But if you have any ideas about what else we
> could do, we'd love to hear them.

Well, I'd suggest something else Burned Fur could do, but y'know, I
think I've been doing that for the past year now. And besides, if I
made any suggestions, you might actually stop ignoring me and respond
with something like...

"Xydexx, shut your goddamn patronizing mouth and
go back to fucking your pool toys."
--- Hangdog, 01/22/99

Oh well.

_________________________________________________
Xydexx Squeakypony, K.S.C. [ICQ: 7569393]
I support freedom, tolerance, and responsibility
in furry fandom... I don't support Burned Fur.
To order a transcript of this post, please send a
self-addressed, stamped antelope to me in email.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Shon Howell

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Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
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>By the way, Mr/Ms. Garn, what have *you* done in the past year to
>alleviate hunger, promote artistic creativity or provide an opportunity
>for fans and artists to gather and socialize?
>
>
>--Hangdog
>

You left out promote racial harmony and halt global warming. Appearantly, the
BF movement is not only ineffectual, but delusional as well.

BTW, does the "provide an opportunity for fans and artists to gather and


socialize" line mean ALL fans & artist or only THE RIGHT fans & artist? Just
curious...

Cerulean

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Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
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Quoth Hangdog:

>Well, we're also running CF 11

Funny, when Darrel was made chair of CF, and alarm was raised over the
perception that BF would be controlling CF from now on, the idea was
soundly debunked. Do you claim to be puppet masters or not?

--
___vvz /( Absurd Notions is on! -> http://cerulean.st/absurdnotions/
<__,` Z / ( | Cerulean= | DC2.~D GmAL~W-R+++Ac~J+S+Fr++IH$M-V+++Cbl,spu
`~~~) )Z) ( | Kevin Pease | FDDmp4adwsA+++$C+D+HM+P-RT+++WZSm#
/ (7 ( h+a!)oS uo!+ewJojuI - ,,Japuom o+ j7asJnoh 77aL,,

Melissa 'Skunk' Drake

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Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
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> >we maintain the second-biggest webring in the fandom.
> I suppose you can crow over that if you must crow about something.

This would be great where it actually TRUE.
Please, Handog, stop saying things without actually knowing if they are
correct.

FurRing, of course, is the undesputed number one.

Here are some others I found.

Dream Weavers Web Writers Union (weavers) -- 277 sites -- Keywords:
fanfic scifi fantasy suspense romance horror furry
-- Description: Webring for writers of genre fiction and fanfic aimed
at helping us share the fiction we all love. Open to writers of
Suspense, SciFi, Fantasy, Romance, Horror, Fanfic and Anthropomorphic
(furry)fiction.

Okay, not STRICTLY furry.. how about these?

FoxTails Literature Ring (furry) -- 80 sites --
Keywords: Furry Anthro Writing Literature Poetry
-- Description: This ring is devoted to anthromorpedic authors and
poets. The sites will contain writings of a 'furry' nature.
FurPride: the webring (fpride) -- 82 sites
Keywords: gay lesbian les bi bisexual furry furries anthro anthromorph
anthromorphic morph pride homosexual
-- Description: FurPride is the first anthropomorphic
gay/lesbian/bisexual support. Originally a links page, FurPride now
strives to link up furries of alternate sexualities and their
supporters.

And of course you:

Burned Fur (deadfur) -- 75 sites --
Keywords: art animals sanity Cartoon history disgruntled rehabilitate
furry anthropomorphics comics
-- Description: This ring is dedicated to the rehabilitation of
"furry," or anthropomorphic fandom. We are the artists and fans who
built this fandom, and we object to the perverse elemts who cling,
leechlike, to something we hold dear. We are opposed to Bestialists,
"Plushophiles", and call into question the "Lifestyler" argument. It's
a tough fight, but with our combined efforts and will, it can be done!
LONG LIVE THE CAUSE OF HUMAN FREEDOM!!!

Straight from webring, my freind. Puts you at at least an honnourable
fourth.

melskunk

Xydexx Squeakypony

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Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
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Correction to previous post:

"Do you think more money would've been raised for Heifer
Project International if Burned Fur hadn't driven away
so many of its potential supporters?"

____________________________________________________________
Xydexx Squeakypony [ICQ: 7569393]
Xydexx's Anthrofurry Homepage
http://www.smart.net/~xydexx/anthrofurry/homepage.htm

Xydexx Squeakypony

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Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
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Hangdog wrote:
> You're referring to my statement about alleviating hunger? The Heifer Hop at
> AnthroCon '99, well-advertised in this NG and other online forums, raised a
> rather nice chunk of change for The Heifer Project International
> (http://www.heifer.org/ ).
>
> It wasn't as if we fed the multitudes on three loaves and two fishes, but it was
> something.

The question remains:

Hangdog

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Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
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Melissa 'Skunk' Drake wrote:

> > >we maintain the second-biggest webring in the fandom.
> > I suppose you can crow over that if you must crow about something.
>
> This would be great where it actually TRUE.
> Please, Handog, stop saying things without actually knowing if they are
> correct.

To the best of my knowledge, it was: that's why I said it. But it seems
you have more recent data. So let's see.

> FurRing, of course, is the undesputed number one.

Implicitly acknowledged when I said "second-biggest," right...

> Here are some others I found.
>
> Dream Weavers Web Writers Union (weavers) -- 277 sites -- Keywords:
> fanfic scifi fantasy suspense romance horror furry
> -- Description: Webring for writers of genre fiction and fanfic aimed
> at helping us share the fiction we all love. Open to writers of
> Suspense, SciFi, Fantasy, Romance, Horror, Fanfic and Anthropomorphic
> (furry)fiction.
>
> Okay, not STRICTLY furry..

Not at all "in the fandom," I'd say. If it were, you could count all the
general-interest SF and fantasy sites.

> how about these?
>
> FoxTails Literature Ring (furry) -- 80 sites --
> Keywords: Furry Anthro Writing Literature Poetry
> -- Description: This ring is devoted to anthromorpedic authors and
> poets. The sites will contain writings of a 'furry' nature.

OK, granted

> FurPride: the webring (fpride) -- 82 sites
> Keywords: gay lesbian les bi bisexual furry furries anthro anthromorph
> anthromorphic morph pride homosexual

Likewise. We were ahead of them for some time, tho: Eric was tracking the
ring size pretty closely about a month ago, and we got weekly reports.

> And of course you:
>
> Burned Fur (deadfur) -- 75 sites --
> Keywords: art animals sanity Cartoon history disgruntled rehabilitate
> furry anthropomorphics comics
>

> Straight from webring, my freind. Puts you at at least an honnourable
> fourth.

OK, last I heard it was the second-biggest. The other sites are close
enough in size (7 and 5, respectively) that I can see how we might have
pulled ahead of them for a week or two. But my bad for not checking
up-to-the-minute figures.

Thanks,

--Hangdog

Xydexx Squeakypony

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Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
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Hangdog wrote:
> Likewise. We were ahead of them for some time, tho: Eric was tracking the
> ring size pretty closely about a month ago, and we got weekly reports.

Eric was also claiming the Burned Fur webring was "second largest" back
in June when it only had 51 sites, compared to FurPride's 90+ and
FurRing's several hundred sites.

I suppose he was tracking the ring size pretty closely then too, huh?

____________________________________________________________
Xydexx Squeakypony, Asking Questions You Don't Want Answered

The Luphra'nite

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Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
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evil...@sodfurry.org wrote:

*LAUGHS*

Now that.. that is humor!!

--
Thé ŁůPhrŞnítÉ rÜŁé˛

We should police ourselves, as we are our own best censors.

Exeperience and talent are NO excuse for blatent and utter
stupidity.

It's the 90's, god is dead, no one cares, and if there is a hell, its furry and I
am gonna see you there!!

ilr

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Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
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Hangdog <peter....@pdq.net> wrote in message news:37D6AE02...@pdq.net...
Two question.

That Mountain Range and lake look awfully familiar. Where was that picture taken?

Do all furries have issues with shaving?

--- i l r

Darth Cartman

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Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
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Xydexx the Sesquipedalian Squeakypony wrote:

> Actually, FurPride is the second biggest webring in the fandom, with 82
> sites.

Followed closely by Potato Salad Pride. What, you don't think potato
salad and gay pride have any relation to each other? Come on, man. The
ties are so obvious, even Stevie Wonder could see them.

ilr

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Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
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Darth Cartman <bo...@qewr.net> wrote in message news:37D78F...@qewr.net...

They can have it.
But if they start taking over the egg salad, that's where I draw the line.

Paul F. Dietz

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Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
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ilr wrote:

> But if they start taking over the egg salad, that's where I draw the line.

What's up, Tiger Lily?

Paul

Dr. Cat

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Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
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Hangdog (peter....@pdq.net) wrote:
: http://members.tripod.com/~burnedfur/shirts.html

It has the group's logo on the front, and a play on words on the back
that slams a group they dislike & spread negative stereotypes about.

Kinda sums up the whole movement neatly, if unintentionally. Are they
more into focusing their attention and effort on positive things, or
about griping to each other about the stuff they dislike? Well, a
t-shirted BF is a self-labelled BF, with visual flame on the front and
verbal flame on the back.

If you don't like flames, at least they warned you who to stay away from.

I tell you, though, if they really want to be the ones to present a
positive image of furry fandom to the press, I hope they're not going
to show up for interviews in those shirts. Doesn't really give the
impression of a very cheery little hobby to an outsider, y'know?

*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
Dr. Cat / Dragon's Eye Productions || Free alpha test:
*-------------------------------------------** http://www.bga.com/furcadia
Furcadia - a new graphic mud for PCs! || Let your imagination soar!
*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*

(Disclaimer: While some "lifestylers" go to most or all of the extremes
presented in the aforementioned stereotype, the vast majority of them are
far less extremist and "weird". This makes the stereotype a bit of a
distortion and potential basis for unfair discrimination, but they, the
t-shirt slogan is a JOKE. And if you happen to genuinely dislike a
person or group of people, and you make a JOKE slamming them instead of
a straightforward statement, then it's not fair for anyone to take that
joke as evidence that you sincerely dislike those people, is it?)

(Disclaimer disclaimer: The above may all be meaningless and stupid,
because I still have it on good authority from a prominent BF that I
am obviously delusional and imagined my entire career. If I could do
that, I could easily have imagined all this other stuff. Heck, they
probably don't even HAVE a t-shirt. They? Why, there probably isn't
any BF movement either, I bet I deluded myself into believing in that too!)

Dr. Cat

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Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
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Hangdog (peter....@pdq.net) wrote:
: But if you have any ideas about what else we could do, we'd love to hear them.

Rather than question the sincerity of that, I'll extend the benefit of
the doubt and assume it's a sincere request, and that such ideas will be
listened to and considered with an open mind. If that request was only
aimed at Shon Howell and not the rest of the general public, my apologies.

My suggestion is that the Burned Fur movement prove to its detractors, to
the Furry Fandom at large (much of which is presumably neutral), and to
itself that it is capable of greatly improving the image of a group by
greatly improving its OWN image first, which is a very tarnished and
negative one right now.

This would offer some evidence that perhaps the BFs really can do the
same for furry fandom. It would give the group practice on
reputation-polishing with a smaller, easier to deal with situation.
It's just plain a good idea. Plus the better reputation for your
own group is something that would be very helpful to have during the
larger task of improving the fandom's reptuation, as you'll be able
to recruit more volunteers to help.

I would suggest moving further away from the indulgences of rudeness,
seeking arguments, and spreading negative stereotypes. If even Eric
Blumrich can back away from these "tactics", why not the rest of you?

*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
Dr. Cat / Dragon's Eye Productions || Free alpha test:
*-------------------------------------------** http://www.bga.com/furcadia
Furcadia - a new graphic mud for PCs! || Let your imagination soar!
*-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*

(Disclaimer: I'd be even happier if the BFs would say "We apologize for
being deliberately rude and nasty in the past, we realize that did more
to harm our goals than to help" and/or "We won't be doing that in the
future, BF is going to be all about accentuating the positive." But I've
noticed that, like most folks, many of them seem to have very little
appetite for "eating crow". A shame, really.)

S.J.Laitila

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Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
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>The question remains:
>
> "Do you think more money would've been raised for Heifer
> Project International if Burned Fur hadn't driven away
> so many of its potential supporters?"

Refusing to participate in charity because the ones who run
it are 'nasty hyoomans' is not only selfish but also
dramatically stupid.

S.J.Laitila - Who's too poor to give anything to charity

Hangdog

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Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
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ilr wrote:

> Hangdog <peter....@pdq.net> wrote in message news:37D6AE02...@pdq.net...
> > ...you wanna buy a T-shirt?
> >
> > http://members.tripod.com/~burnedfur/shirts.html
> >
> > Fell off a truck. $17.00 plus S&H.
> >
> > --Hangdog
> >
> >
> Two question.
>
> That Mountain Range and lake look awfully familiar. Where was that picture taken?

The Bolivian Andes, just like it says in the caption.

> Do all furries have issues with shaving?

When they're traversing the Andes, I'd imagine they would. I've had the beard,
though, for twenty years now.

HTH

--Hangdog


Hangdog

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Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
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Somebody Wrote:

> >The question remains:
> >
> > "Do you think more money would've been raised for Heifer
> > Project International if Burned Fur hadn't driven away
> > so many of its potential supporters?"

So you think another furry group--one that's more "open-minded" and
"tolerant"--could have raised more money for HPI?

Well, they might have. Why didn't they try, then?

Do you think HPI would have allowed its name to be used by a group
that condoned and supported the sexual abuse of animals?

"S.J.Laitila" wrote:

> Refusing to participate in charity because the ones who run
> it are 'nasty hyoomans' is not only selfish but also
> dramatically stupid.

"Selfish and dramatically stupid" Yep, that's FurryDumb.

> S.J.Laitila - Who's too poor to give anything to charity

Nah. Charities can use lots of things besides money--volunteer labor,
for example. And truth to tell, donating labor's a lot more fun than
donating money. You get to do interesting things and meet other
like-minded people.

--Hangdog, Dispenser of Sage Advice (other herbal flavors available
;o)

diespa...@best.com

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Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
to
Dr. Cat <c...@bga.com> wrote:

: It has the group's logo on the front, and a play on words on the back
: that slams a group they dislike & spread negative stereotypes about.

Snivel us a river, David. Don't like it, don't buy it.

Maybe you should get a shirt that says "Unwanted Sexual Attention
Given Here".

embarass...@jorgensen.fam

unread,
Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
to
Xydexx Squeakypony <xyd...@my-AIRHOSE-deja.com> wrote:

: The question remains:

: "Do you think more money would've been raised for Heifer
: Project International if Burned Fur hadn't driven away
: so many of its potential supporters?"


The question remains:

Do you think more people would have respect for you if you
didn't act like a complete freak and brag about all the sick
shit you like to fuck?

Farlo

unread,
Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
to
Xydexx Squeakypony wrote:

>Hangdog wrote:
>> Likewise. We were ahead of them for some time, tho: Eric was tracking
>> the ring size pretty closely about a month ago, and we got weekly
>> reports.
>
>Eric was also claiming the Burned Fur webring was "second largest" back
>in June when it only had 51 sites, compared to FurPride's 90+ and
>FurRing's several hundred sites.
>
>I suppose he was tracking the ring size pretty closely then too, huh?

Eric takes into account the EGO of the site owners, and that skews his
data significantly.

--
Farlo
Urban fey dragon

"Yes, my e-mail address is valid. It just doesn't look valid."

Farlo

unread,
Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
to
Hangdog wrote:

>So you think another furry group--one that's more "open-minded" and
>"tolerant"--could have raised more money for HPI?

That is self-evident.
Good marketing requires a rapport with your customers.
After "mocking them with maximum cruelty",
how could you expect them to be generous?

>Why didn't they try, then?

BF isn't the first group to raise money for a charitable cause, and it
won't be the last.

>Do you think HPI would have allowed its name to be used by a group
>that condoned and supported the sexual abuse of animals?

Nobody supports the sexual abuse of animals,
and very few people support you.

>"S.J.Laitila" wrote:
>
>> Refusing to participate in charity because the ones who run
>> it are 'nasty hyoomans' is not only selfish but also
>> dramatically stupid.
>
>"Selfish and dramatically stupid" Yep, that's FurryDumb.

"Furrydumb?" And you, Hangdog, want our money??

Xydexx the Sesquipedalian Squeakypony

unread,
Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
to
S.J.Laitila wrote:
> Refusing to participate in charity because the ones who run
> it are 'nasty hyoomans' is not only selfish but also
> dramatically stupid.

Interesting Trivia:
Xydexx has donated more money to charity this
year than the amount Burned Fur donated to HPI.

Just thought you'd like to know.[1]

___________________________________________________


Xydexx Squeakypony, K.S.C. [ICQ: 7569393]

S q u e a k y p o n y l a n d :
http://www.smart.net/~xydexx/lifestyle/homepage.htm

[1] Of course, someone like GothTiger would say
that I'm just "throwing my money around".
If you ask me, I don't think the new quarters
are aerodynamically designed well enough. At
least we have interesting currency now, right?
Hey, maybe I'll throw my money around some
more and buy FurRing or something.

Cerulean

unread,
Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
to
Quoth Xydexx:

> If you ask me, I don't think the new quarters
> are aerodynamically designed well enough. At
> least we have interesting currency now, right?

I like the Delaware ones. Is this the first horse on a coin?

Forrest

unread,
Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
to
There was an interesting letter to the editor in the Philadelphia Inquirer
on 9/7 about the (now cancelled) annual pigeon shoot in Hegins PA -- you
know, the one where they'd get together big bags of live pigeons, let them
loose, and then everyone would blast away merrily to nail them before they
could fly away, and then people would go out and kill the wounded.

The writer, a self-described former "trapper-boy", pointed out that the
shoot started out for an actual purpose -- controlling crop-damaging
pigeons, apparently present in large numbers at the time -- and would have
ended through obsolescence years ago had not outsiders started a big protest
about it, thereby causing the community to close ranks, become defensive,
and perpetuate the event in an exaggerated form as a reaction to the
criticism.

He writes, "[a]ctivists were perceived as arrogant, self-righteous, morally
superior troublemakers who had no understanding, or tolerance of, country
ways."

Kind of interesting how a well-intentioned movement can end up exacerbating
the situation it was trying put a stop to.

http://members.xoom.com/squirreltech -- Manifesto II draft

http://members.xoom.com/squirreltech/two.html -- article on two fandoms with
the same name


Melissa 'Skunk' Drake

unread,
Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
to

> > > >we maintain the second-biggest webring in the fandom.
> > > I suppose you can crow over that if you must crow about something.
> >
> > This would be great where it actually TRUE.
> > Please, Handog, stop saying things without actually knowing if they
are
> > correct.
>
> To the best of my knowledge, it was: that's why I said it. But it
seems
> you have more recent data. So let's see.

Well, ignorance is no excuse when you can check up very easily.
Just trying to make your life easier.

> > FurRing, of course, is the undesputed number one.
>
> Implicitly acknowledged when I said "second-biggest," right...
>
> > Here are some others I found.
> >
> > Dream Weavers Web Writers Union (weavers) -- 277 sites -- Keywords:
> > fanfic scifi fantasy suspense romance horror furry
> > -- Description: Webring for writers of genre fiction and fanfic
aimed
> > at helping us share the fiction we all love. Open to writers of
> > Suspense, SciFi, Fantasy, Romance, Horror, Fanfic and
Anthropomorphic
> > (furry)fiction.
> >
> > Okay, not STRICTLY furry..
>
> Not at all "in the fandom," I'd say. If it were, you could count all
the
> general-interest SF and fantasy sites.

Not nessisarily.. I could go and count how many furry sites are on the
ring. But granted, it will attract others.


> > how about these?
> >
> > FoxTails Literature Ring (furry) -- 80 sites --
> > Keywords: Furry Anthro Writing Literature Poetry
> > -- Description: This ring is devoted to anthromorpedic authors and
> > poets. The sites will contain writings of a 'furry' nature.
>
> OK, granted
>
> > FurPride: the webring (fpride) -- 82 sites
> > Keywords: gay lesbian les bi bisexual furry furries anthro
anthromorph
> > anthromorphic morph pride homosexual
>

> Likewise. We were ahead of them for some time, tho: Eric was
tracking the
> ring size pretty closely about a month ago, and we got weekly reports.

Well, you'll probably overrun us soon again. I do pretty strict quality
control (ie: erasing broken sites or non-existant ones), and I did
implement new content rules which droped us from 100+. I'm going to be
doing my monthly 'are all the pages working and still okay content
wise' check today. So who knows? It causes my numbers to drop suddenly.

When you've been running a ring for a few years, you learn people
expect you to be psychic when they remove their site, your code, or
move the page elsewhere. (Exotic Pet Ring.. 4th year running and I
still can't get it all non-broken for more than a few months :P)

(Which is why I'd be a nut to bid on FurRing. I'm bad enough with under
100 sites!!)

MelSkunk

S.J.Laitila

unread,
Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
to
>When they're traversing the Andes, I'd imagine they would. I've had the beard,
>though, for twenty years now.

He's probably jealous, cuz his beard doesn't grow. ;)

S.J.Laitila - Armed with a goatee

Super Jay

unread,
Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
to
>Here are some others I found.

<snip>

what about my Fursuit ring, we have 40 members :)
http://www.furnation.com/SuperJay/ring/


-Super Jay
-fursuit ring admin.

Swiftfoot Cheetah

unread,
Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
to
In article <37d7a...@feed1.realtime.net>,

c...@bga.com (Dr. Cat) wrote:
> Hangdog (peter....@pdq.net) wrote:
> : http://members.tripod.com/~burnedfur/shirts.html
>
> It has the group's logo on the front, and a play on words on the back
> that slams a group they dislike & spread negative stereotypes about.

Amen.

I just had to pause the first time I read "I don't have a LIFESTYLE, I
have a LIFE!"

They have a life... yet they feel so strongly about this issue that
they're plunking down money and wearing a shirt with this political
slogan on it for a relatively obscure fandom.

Tell me again: Who has the life, and who doesn't?

-Swiftfoot

Gabriel Gentile

unread,
Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
to
Way to go, Hang, now you've got the VEGANS P.O.ed with us!

Gabriel Gentile
DiscoC...@hotmail.com

fur...@suck.com

unread,
Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
to
Swiftfoot Cheetah <swiftfoo...@hotmail.com> wrote:

: Tell me again: Who has the life, and who doesn't?

Me.
You.


Cerulean

unread,
Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
to
Quoth Swiftfoot Cheetah:

> c...@bga.com (Dr. Cat) wrote:
>> It has the group's logo on the front, and a play on words on the back
>> that slams a group they dislike & spread negative stereotypes about.
>
>Amen.
>
>I just had to pause the first time I read "I don't have a LIFESTYLE, I
>have a LIFE!"

Stop me if you've heard this one...

"I don't have a lifestyle"
+ ___________"I have a life"_
= "I have no style"

The Saprophyte

unread,
Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
to
somebody else wrote:

>
> Do you think HPI would have allowed its name to be used by a group
> that condoned and supported the sexual abuse of animals?
>

> "S.J.Laitila" wrote:
>
> > Refusing to participate in charity because the ones who run
> > it are 'nasty hyoomans' is not only selfish but also
> > dramatically stupid.
>

> "Selfish and dramatically stupid" Yep, that's FurryDumb.
>

So if an organization of zu-files established a charity for an equally
worthy cause, you'd be among the first to donate to them, yes?


The Saprophyte
--
thesap...@fillers.usa.net
this address contains no spam,
artificial preservatives
or added fillers.

The Saprophyte

unread,
Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
to
S.J.Laitila wrote:
>

> >_Xydexx_ wrote:

> >The question remains:
> >
> > "Do you think more money would've been raised for Heifer
> > Project International if Burned Fur hadn't driven away
> > so many of its potential supporters?"
>

> Refusing to participate in charity because the ones who run
> it are 'nasty hyoomans' is not only selfish but also
> dramatically stupid.
>


_A_ charity, singular. There are more than enough organizations out
there to ensure that the money gets where it's needed without lending
one drop of prestige to a group one doesn't wish to support.
Sending a "message" to BF through non-participation needn't affect
anyone other than BF.

Paul F. Dietz

unread,
Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
to
The Saprophyte wrote:

> _A_ charity, singular. There are more than enough organizations out
> there to ensure that the money gets where it's needed without lending
> one drop of prestige to a group one doesn't wish to support.
> Sending a "message" to BF through non-participation needn't affect
> anyone other than BF.

Also, you can contribute to the Heifer Project directly,
or through some other intermediary. Many churches give
to this organization.

See http://www.heifer.org/ for more information.

Paul

Mutt

unread,
Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
to
>Umm... Peter... The Burned Furs are NOT running ConFurence. ConFurence's
>*staff* is running ConFurence.

Well, maybe some of them (Mind you, I said some, not all) are starting to
think they are cuz they think they can manhandle furs in the stairwells.

Richard Chandler - WA Resident

unread,
Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
to
In article <7r9uqe$f75$1...@crucigera.fysh.org>, "Mutt" <kit...@netzero.net>
writes:

> Well, maybe some of them (Mind you, I said some, not all) are starting
> to think they are cuz they think they can manhandle furs in the
> stairwells.

You know, if it weren't so damned stupid, this would almost be funny.


--
The greatest tragedy is that the same species that achieved space flight,
a cure for polio, and the transistor, is also featured nightly on COPS.
-- Richard Chandler
Spammer Warning: Washington State Law now provides civil penalties for UCE.


Richard Chandler - WA Resident

unread,
Sep 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/9/99
to
In article <37d7fc50...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
kevin...@worldnet.att.net (Cerulean) writes:
> I like the Delaware ones. Is this the first horse on a coin?

I haven't seen a Delaware yet, and only a few Georgias. But I see lots of PAs
and I hate 'em. They're SO flat and plain they feel like a subway token, only
not as elaborate.

Darrel L. Exline

unread,
Sep 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/10/99
to
Hangdog wrote:
> Well, we're also running CF 11, we raised $183 for the Heifer Project
> International at AC 99, we published a fanzine which sold out its first printing,
> and we maintain the second-biggest webring in the fandom (right after the Fur
> Ring). Not bad for a movement that's one year old.

Umm... Peter... The Burned Furs are NOT running ConFurence. ConFurence's

*staff* is running ConFurence. Of the 60-plus staff members, I'd guess that
only a few would consider themselves to be members of Burned Fur.

Just becuase *I* am Co-chair of CF11, and Director of the company financing
CF11, and *I* personally happen to call myself a Burned Fur, DOES NOT IMPLY that
the Burned Furs are running ConFurence. Running CF is not a dictatorship, it is
a cooperative effort among MANY volunteers working to achieve the same goal.

Most of ConFurence's staff remains as it was at CF10. The Co-Chair's Mark and
Rodney stepped down following CF10, but even Rodney is still on staff in
Programming. There have been very few changes in CF's staff other than
hierarchial modifications and a couple of new faces.

Please refrain from such misleading statements in the future. Thank you.

+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Darrel L. Exline "Your friendly neighborhood Polar Bear" |
| Director, "The ConFurence Group" -+- Co-Chair, "ConFurence" |
| 619-223-9482 http://polarden.org dar...@home.com |
|!! ConFurence 11: April 6 to April 9, 2000, Irvine Hilton !!|
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

Darrel L. Exline

unread,
Sep 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/10/99
to
Xydexx the Sesquipedalian Squeakypony wrote:
> Interesting Trivia:
> Xydexx has donated more money to charity this
> year than the amount Burned Fur donated to HPI.

(This may be bragging... but hey, that's was "Bragging Rights" are for...)

I have my name engraved on the donor plaque at the San Diego Zoo's new Ituri
Forest exhibit. That wasn't cheap. The Zoological Society of San Diego gave me
a *complimentary* President's Associates membership, which normally costs $1,000
per year, just to give you an idea.

The Luphra'nite

unread,
Sep 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/10/99
to
embarass...@jorgensen.fam wrote:

> Xydexx Squeakypony <xyd...@my-AIRHOSE-deja.com> wrote:
> The question remains:
>

> Do you think more people would have respect for you if you
> didn't act like a complete freak and brag about all the sick
> shit you like to fuck?

Same goes for you, mighty morphine cocaine ranger. ;) What do you screw to get
your nuts loose?


(when asked, I would think it is a general inquiry, and shouldn't be taken as a
smart ass comment, no matter how it is phrased. A simple, non of ya business is
suffice. Then again, soem folks have no clue what a polite response is.)


--
Thé ŁůPhrŞnítÉ rÜŁé˛

We should police ourselves, as we are our own best censors.

Exeperience and talent are NO excuse for blatent and utter
stupidity.

It's the 90's, god is dead, no one cares, and if there is a hell, its furry and
I am gonna see you there!!

The Luphra'nite

unread,
Sep 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/10/99
to
Farlo wrote:

> "Furrydumb?" And you, Hangdog, want our money??
>
> --
> Farlo
> Urban fey dragon

*laughs* Wow.. I actually have to agrre with you on that one.

Good way to just get customers and supporters. Call the dumb, and the reverse
psycology just draws them right in, like flies to shit. No wonder I don't
really give a flying where the fandom is headed anymore.

*shrug*

When the 'politically correct' movement's leaders are calling all their
underlings as well as their opposition the 'furrydumb', well, it leaves alot to
be desired.

WTG, considering I like coined the term furrydumb like, oh.. back in november or
something, once again, rip-offs, and slanderisms. Gotta love it!!

Well.. back to making a living.

The Luphra'nite

unread,
Sep 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/10/99
to
"Darrel L. Exline" wrote:

>
> Umm... Peter... The Burned Furs are NOT running ConFurence. ConFurence's *staff* is
> running ConFurence. Of the 60-plus staff members, I'd guess that
> only a few would consider themselves to be members of Burned Fur.

Well.. the Burned Fur Gestapo, HangDog, SqueeRat, and Blurmrich (how is the correct
spelling, arggh!) all think they are hot shit, and think that because one in such an
important convention is a burned fur, then its a burned fur type con, or the like. you
get the ideal.. me tired, but want to express something here. Ever since DAY 1 of this
whole crap, hangdog has been stickign his pecker in everthing, and trying to label it
BF this, or BF that. This is so fucking stupid. Next thing you know, if one or more
of the seats in the house of congress were to suddenly say 'hey! i'm a burned fur' then
peter would probably be all bouncy and giggly saying that the burned furs now are in
control of the political situtation in the states. (spank spank)

> Just becuase *I* am Co-chair of CF11, and Director of the company financing
> CF11, and *I* personally happen to call myself a Burned Fur, DOES NOT IMPLY that
> the Burned Furs are running ConFurence. Running CF is not a dictatorship, it is
> a cooperative effort among MANY volunteers working to achieve the same goal.

EXACTLY! I know that I busted my ass and helped out at a few things of minor
consequence at Further Confusion, and even gave a bit as well. I did it because I
wanted to, not because anyone was forcing my hand, or with any reward. No.. I take
that back, I hit it up for a few cans of soda. :) Once again, CERTAIN individuals want
to use the name to take control and hand out do's and don'ts within the fandom.

> Most of ConFurence's staff remains as it was at CF10. The Co-Chair's Mark and
> Rodney stepped down following CF10, but even Rodney is still on staff in
> Programming. There have been very few changes in CF's staff other than
> hierarchial modifications and a couple of new faces.
>
> Please refrain from such misleading statements in the future. Thank you.

Like I said, Peter's gotta have his schlong into everthing. He seems to now fancy
himself Dues (bit obscure) since the other founding members have either got 'better'
things to do then the fandom, or don't give a rats anymore. I just wonder HOW much of
this dedication to being idiotic and mis-informed is cutting into his family life?

That is another problem here folks. WHat about you all's family lives? For those that
have families, don't you do anythign with them, or are you all got each others nose's
stuck up each others tailholes to realize that there are actuall REAL FOLKS that care
for you?

That is one reason I don't even post anymore. I realized that with all the anger and
hostility I was getting from reading all this garbage, my relationship with my dad and
mom (who are now divorced) was really rocky, as I would always be pissy and annoyed,
and I took it out on them. Also, since having a REAL job, eventhough it is at home
(cool setup and the like) I don't have time for this nonsense. Face it.. lifestyler,
preacher, or dictator wanna be, its pointless.

Live.. don't waste it typign away on some glorified bulletin board.

Geesh..

The Luphra'nite

unread,
Sep 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/10/99
to

"Dr. Cat" wrote:

> It has the group's logo on the front, and a play on words on the back
> that slams a group they dislike & spread negative stereotypes about.

As before, over and over again, they are hippocrites. The shirt proves it.

Tolerant and 'understanding' my asshole. Hemroids are more
compasionate then some of them. Less flamey as well.

> Kinda sums up the whole movement neatly, if unintentionally. Are they
> more into focusing their attention and effort on positive things, or
> about griping to each other about the stuff they dislike? Well, a
> t-shirted BF is a self-labelled BF, with visual flame on the front and
> verbal flame on the back.

When they are wering the T-shirts, just think of this. Perhaps they got
hemorids, and are a walking add for Preperation H ;) Burned furs.. yah!

> If you don't like flames, at least they warned you who to stay away from.

Yah.. start making up some shirts.. Fire Extinguisher Furs.. and have
a nifty shirt, "I have a life, a lifestyle.. and a job, you got.. what?"

Or something variably snafu.

> I tell you, though, if they really want to be the ones to present a
> positive image of furry fandom to the press, I hope they're not going
> to show up for interviews in those shirts. Doesn't really give the
> impression of a very cheery little hobby to an outsider, y'know?

That is exactly their point. They don't give a flying about the 'reputation'
as much as vocing their idiotic and demented views on things.

> *-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
> Dr. Cat / Dragon's Eye Productions || Free alpha test:
> *-------------------------------------------** http://www.bga.com/furcadia
> Furcadia - a new graphic mud for PCs! || Let your imagination soar!
> *-------------------------------------------**-----------------------------*
>

--
Thé £ùPhrªnítÉ rÜ£é²

Mutt

unread,
Sep 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/10/99
to
No, what is stupid are certain BF's claiming they run CF.

Glen Wooten

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Sep 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/10/99
to
Richard Chandler - WA Resident <mau...@kendra.com> wrote:
> In article <37d7fc50...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
> kevin...@worldnet.att.net (Cerulean) writes:
>> I like the Delaware ones. Is this the first horse on a coin?
>
> I haven't seen a Delaware yet, and only a few Georgias. But I see lots
> of PAs and I hate 'em. They're SO flat and plain they feel like a
> subway token, only not as elaborate.

I have heard that they are putting the state quarters on hold for right
now - becasue they are _slightly_ lighter than a regular quarter, and so
some vending machines are rejecting them...

--
Glen Wooten

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| primary: jag...@netcom.com | secondary: glen....@fanciful.org |
_______________________________________________________________________

| Terrie's web page: http://members.aol.com/amperprodx/littlepaw.html |
_______________________________________________________________________


Xydexx the Sesquipedalian Squeakypony

unread,
Sep 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/10/99
to
Cerulean wrote:
> I like the Delaware ones. Is this the first horse on a coin?

AFAIK, yesh.

I've seen Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Georgia thus far. So
far Delaware is the only one with any kind of animal on it, though.[1]

_________________________________________________
Xydexx the Easily-Distracted Squeakypony, K.S.C.
I support Furry Peace! http://www.fur.com/peace/

[1] New Jersey has "Washington Crossing The
Landfill In A Garbage Scow" for a design. -:)

sola...@don'tmesswithtexas.net

unread,
Sep 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/10/99
to
Glen Wooten <jag...@netcom.com> wrote:

>>> I like the Delaware ones. Is this the first horse on a coin?
>>

>> I haven't seen a Delaware yet, and only a few Georgias. But I see lots
>> of PAs and I hate 'em. They're SO flat and plain they feel like a
>> subway token, only not as elaborate.
>
>I have heard that they are putting the state quarters on hold for right
>now - becasue they are _slightly_ lighter than a regular quarter, and so
>some vending machines are rejecting them...

Your tax dollars at work. :)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Fool! You have just signed the universe's death warrant!"

"I did? Uh... gee, I don't know if I'm authorized to sign that..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
solarfox@DON'TMESSWITHtexas.net (Gary Akins jr.)
http://lonestar.texas.net/~solarfox
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Swiftfoot Cheetah

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Sep 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/10/99
to
In article <37d83d85$0$2...@nntp1.ba.best.com>,

How absolutely insightful. You've certainly bested me with that
triumph of logic.

-Swiftfoot

JNG

unread,
Sep 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/10/99
to
There should be some kind of award for such long and futile
discussion threads. I'm kind of a newbe here but I think some records
have been broken! I'm not even going to bother reading all this crap!

Karina Wright

unread,
Sep 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/10/99
to
> I haven't seen a Delaware yet, and only a few Georgias. But I see lots of
PAs
> and I hate 'em. They're SO flat and plain they feel like a subway token,
only
> not as elaborate.

The Connecticut ones are going to be beautiful...wonderful tree on 'em...

S.J.Laitila

unread,
Sep 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/10/99
to
>Nobody supports the sexual abuse of animals,

except the ones who participate in it.


>and very few people support you.

Well... I do.

S.J.Laitila

unread,
Sep 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/10/99
to
>So if an organization of zu-files established a charity for an equally
>worthy cause, you'd be among the first to donate to them, yes?

And the same topic jumps back...

S.J.Laitila

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Sep 10, 1999, 3:00:00 AM9/10/99