Apathy, disinterest or procrastination?

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Chakat Goldfur

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Mar 12, 2004, 9:12:25 AM3/12/04
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I'm wondering whether it's apathy, disinterest or procrastination that
has resulted in the lack of response for my call for nominations for the
Ursa Major Awards. There are thousands of furry fans, and yet the
nominations have been woefully neglected. Are people only interested in
furry fandom as an excuse for getting together with other people with
the same "weird" tendencies, or is there a genuine interest in where the
genre is going? The Ursa Major Awards is driven purely by popular
response in both the nomination and voting processes. I've been more
heavily involved and put a lot of time and effort into making things
easy for anyone to do this, yet even this seems too hard for some
people. You can guess that I'm a little miffed.

If you're amongst the apathetic, shake yourself and ask what you expect
to get out of the fandom if you aren't willing to put anything into it?

If you're amongst the disinterested, why are you in the fandom at all?
It's not as if we're asking so much of you.

And if you're amongst the procrastinators, get the heck over to
http://www.ursamajorawards.org/nominations.htm to enrol and put your
nominations in. You've only got until March 15 to do so!

To those wonderful people who have made nominations, if you want to
update or add to your nominations, this can be done also. Your details
have been saved and can be changed up until the deadline.

--
Chakat Goldfur
The Chakat's Den, Australia - http://www.chakatsden.com/chakat/
South Fur Lands - http://www.chakatsden.com/sfl/
The Ursa Major Awards - http:..www.ursamajorawards.org

PlanetFur

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Mar 12, 2004, 11:09:09 AM3/12/04
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Chakat Goldfur wrote:
> I'm wondering whether it's apathy, disinterest or procrastination that
> has resulted in the lack of response for my call for nominations for the
> Ursa Major Awards. There are thousands of furry fans, and yet the
> nominations have been woefully neglected. Are people only interested in
> furry fandom as an excuse for getting together with other people with
> the same "weird" tendencies, or is there a genuine interest in where the
> genre is going? The Ursa Major Awards is driven purely by popular
> response in both the nomination and voting processes. I've been more
> heavily involved and put a lot of time and effort into making things
> easy for anyone to do this, yet even this seems too hard for some
> people. You can guess that I'm a little miffed.

I think it's more because the Ursa Major awards aren't really that
acknowledged of awards for furry fandom. They may be one of the only
ones, but when compared to larger genres, such as horror or science
fiction, even the smallest of awards have prestige.

There are statues, trophies or plaques for winners; announcements are
made not only at a con, but through an organization. The voting and the
eligibility rules are clear and concise.

Also, it seems more like a fan-drooling contest rather than an actual
award. Taking the categories:

Best Anthropomorphic Motion Picture
Best Anthropomorphic Dramatic Series
Best Anthropomorphic Novel
Best Anthropomorphic Short Fiction
Best Anthropomorphic Other Literary Work
Best Anthropomorphic Comic Book
Best Anthropomorphic Comic Strip
Best Anthropomorphic Fanzine
Best Anthropomorphic Published Illustration
Best Anthropomorphic Game

I have to say a few things. First, how many Motion Pictures have there
been released in this fandom? Probably more than 99% of the past
nominations of this have just been motion pictures that furries have
enjoyed, rather than the fandom has produced.

Dramatic Series? Novel? Again, these are very rare to the fandom itself,
and more of what these people enjoyed.

And as far as short fiction, other literary work (generally poems,
essays, etc.), comic strip and published illustration, these could be
anything that someone slapped online, or got into a 'zine or ezine that
probably hasn't sent out a single rejection yet.

Disband the recommended anthropomorphics list, or remove it from the
same organization as the Ursa Major awards. Even though there are
disclaimers that items on this list aren't automatically nominated for
Ursa Major awards, people may feel that nominations must come from this
list, or it *IS* the list of nominations. No other organization
publishes a list of recommended reading tied with the nominations.

Want more advice? Make it more of awards for the fandom by the fandom.
Change Best Anthropomorphic Motion Picture and Dramatic Series into
"Best Multimedia Production". Drop Anthropomorphic from all the
categories, of course, as there are no non-anthropomorphic categories
(it's an Ursa Major award, after all; the eligibility limits them to
anthro items anyways, why be redundant?).

Until there are more novels published by and for the furry crowd, change
the published works to limit them greatly. Best Long Work, Best Short
Work, Best Long Form Sequential Art and Best Short Form Sequential Art.
Limit these to published works in magazines, comic books, syndications,
electronic formats, etc., where the payment is at least half a cent per
word, or at least five dollars per page for artwork, and is published at
least annually. This, of course, in US Dollars. Equivalents in other
countries should be allowed.

Now, why the weird wording on the comic book/strip works? Many furry
comic books have the main comic up front, but with side comics as
filler, or, like with Furrlough and Genus, many small short comics. What
if someone has a great comic in Genus #80, let's say, but the rest of
the comic is dreadful? No one would really want to include ALL of Genus
#80 for an award against, let's say, Extinctioners #20, where three
major members die in tragic circumstances but three new members are
introduced. I mean, that kind of twist is popular, right?

So, instead of nominating whole comic books, nominate a single instance
of a story within a comic book (Best Short Form Sequential Art) or a
timeline or arc of story (Sabrina Online, The Death of The Extinctioners
Arc, etc.).

Okay, next. Fanzine. Why just Fanzine and not Magazine? There are
commercial publications in the furry fandom, such as FurNation,
Anthrolations, etc. There's a huge difference between what professional
publications can afford to do and what amateur publications can do.

Change this to Best Commercial Periodical and Best Amateur Periodical.
The qualifications would just be Commercial pays at least half-cent per
word for stories, five dollars per page for artwork; amateur pays less
than that. And to further qualify, the periodical must have had a
publication in the previous calendar year (in 2003 for the 2004 awards).

That leaves two categories. Best Illustration seems to be all right.
Just change the qualifications for this to be in a publication whose
payment was at least five dollars per page.

Best Game. I don't know how this would be done. I recommend changing
this to Best Game in Physical Form and Best Game in Electronic Form.
Since, well, Jadeclaw and the memory game from Sabrina Online may not
exactly be in the same league for nominations. If there are not enough
Electronic Format games, then perhaps condensing it simply to Best Game.
I hope it won't cause too many people to complain about how broad it is. (:

And one category not listed I'd love to see: Best Resource.

Qualifications? Any resource by and for the fandom which released or
provided a new resource for the community, whether for free or for a
fee, in the previous calendar year.

All qualifying nominations must have been first introduced or had at
least one full qualifying publication in the previous calendar year to
be eligible. Reprints, rereleases or anthology reproductions of any work
that could have been previously eligible are no longer eligible.

So, the categories I suggest would be:

Best Multimedia Production
Best Long Work (or Best Fiction Long Work)
Best Short Work (or Best Fiction Short Work)
Best Long Form Sequential Art
Best Short Form Sequential Art
Best Commercial Periodical
Best Amateur Periodical
Best Illustration
Best Game in Physical Form (or combine these two)
Best Game in Electronic Form (or combine these two)
Best Resource

And I'd love for the Ursa Awards to discuss the following additions:

Best Artist
Best Writer
Best Editor
Best Publisher
Best Convention, Gathering or Organization

These would require a bit more discussion on qualifications and limitations.

Okay, now that that is out of the way, another recommendation to make
these less apathetic. Try tying the awards to a major convention.
Further Confusion, Anthrocon, something where you'd get a great number
of participants. Have the convention tack on an extra $5 or so to the
membership, or $10 on all sponsorships, to cover the costs of the actual
awards. Have a nice dinner, banquet, whatever, or tie it with the
sponsor dinner/banquet to give out the awards. Invite all the people who
are nominated for the awards to the banquet who can attend (presenting
a physical award to a person is generally more exciting and noticeable
than just printing a list of winners on a website).

Since the fandom is very spread out and not everyone who goes to FC goes
to AC, and vice versa, the number of actual invited attendees should not
be a huge concern at this point. Start nominations in late December with
a PDF-printable form, including the qualifications, for people to mail
in. Have conventions include these in their books late in the year.
Promote the hell out of the awards before and after, make sure people
are aware that something good has happened here. And, when you're ready
to list the final nominations, change the print out for an easy-to-use
form for people to send in. Checkboxes, etc. I don't recommend emailing
these in as it would be impossible to monitor for abuse. It's harder,
but still possible, to abuse this from snail mail, but how many people
would vote-bomb a mail-in vote?

Anyways, apathy will continue as the awards seem trivial, and only a
tagline to apply to websites. Make them more professional and more
appropriate, and people will take more time to promote them and
participate in them. You should see campaigns for nominations for the
Bram Stoker and Hugo awards, after all. Writers push hard to get
NOMINATED, not just win, for these things.

Just some musings.

Iller

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Mar 12, 2004, 11:25:01 AM3/12/04
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Ursa What??
Uhh, first time I ever heard of 'em =\

"Chakat Goldfur" <gold...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:c2sgg2$kro$1...@velox.critter.net...


Dave the Elector Count Hyena

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Mar 12, 2004, 11:42:35 AM3/12/04
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Chakat Goldfur <gold...@bigpond.net.au> shall never vanquished be
until great Birnam wood to high alt.fan.furry. hill shall come against
him.

>I'm wondering whether it's apathy, disinterest or procrastination that
>has resulted in the lack of response for my call for nominations for the
>Ursa Major Awards. There are thousands of furry fans, and yet the
>nominations have been woefully neglected.

That's probably your fault then, Put more effort into promoting them.

ATM, The awards carry no prestige or Cachet at all, precisely because
nobody has heard of them.

And because they carry no prestige or cachet, No one is even
interested in winning them.

You also need to change you approach, Blaming it on the very people
who you want to vote will simply put them off and squander what good
will you have.

---
"My men have a disease of the heart which can only be assuaged by
gold"- Hernan Cortez

Dave the Elector Count Hyena

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Mar 12, 2004, 11:47:37 AM3/12/04
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Chakat Goldfur <gold...@bigpond.net.au> shall never vanquished be
until great Birnam wood to high alt.fan.furry. hill shall come against
him.

>I'm wondering whether it's apathy, disinterest or procrastination that

>has resulted in the lack of response for my call for nominations for the
>Ursa Major Awards. There are thousands of furry fans, and yet the
>nominations have been woefully neglected. Are people only interested in
>furry fandom as an excuse for getting together with other people with
>the same "weird" tendencies, or is there a genuine interest in where the
>genre is going? The Ursa Major Awards is driven purely by popular
>response in both the nomination and voting processes. I've been more
>heavily involved and put a lot of time and effort into making things
>easy for anyone to do this, yet even this seems too hard for some
>people. You can guess that I'm a little miffed.

Also, People like "Ralph Hayes Junior" should not be allowed to be
nominated because of their extremely prejudicial and hateful views.

People like he bring only opprobrium and outright damage upon the
Furry fandom through their views and promulgations, therefore it is
necessary that he and all his like be exorcised as far as possible
wherever possible.

Barry Gold

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Mar 12, 2004, 7:21:12 PM3/12/04
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PlanetFur <nos...@nospam.planetfur.com> wrote:
[many excellent recommendations snipped]

>Okay, next. Fanzine. Why just Fanzine and not Magazine? There are
>commercial publications in the furry fandom, such as FurNation,
>Anthrolations, etc. There's a huge difference between what professional
>publications can afford to do and what amateur publications can do.
>
>Change this to Best Commercial Periodical and Best Amateur Periodical.
>The qualifications would just be Commercial pays at least half-cent per
>word for stories, five dollars per page for artwork; amateur pays less
>than that. And to further qualify, the periodical must have had a
>publication in the previous calendar year (in 2003 for the 2004 awards).

Overall, these are good ideas. I'm a little concerned that in some
categories you are just changing the name without really changing the
concept, although in others it's quite clear that a real change is
intended. For example, your change from "best (anthro) movie" to best
multi-media work clearly indicates that excellent web pages with sound
and animation (e.g.) would qualify, and they are more likely to occur
than either movies or dramatic series oriented around
anthropomorphics.

I would also recommend that both you and the Ursa Major awards
committee look at the rules for the SF Hugo awards, at
http://www.worldcon.org/bm/const-2002.html
Not that Ursa Major should copy them slavishly -- furry is a much
smaller genre than SF as a whole, and there need to be adjustments
such as you suggested. But I think there are some excellent ideas
there in regard to the Periodical and/or Fanzine categories.

Another good source of ideas is filk's Pegasus awards. The rules for
these are at
http://www.ovff.org/pegasus.html

Not that I thinkwe should copy their categories, but they have one
idea that I think is excellent for something like this. Pegasi,
unlike Hugos, aren't attached to the current year. Any song/performer
can be nominated in the current year. The exclusions are:
. A song can't appear in more than one category in a single year
. When someone has won an award for performance, they are excluded
from being nominated in that category for the following year.

This would allow awarding an Ursa to, e.g., "Bambi" even though it
first appeared more than 50 years ago. (Substitute your favorite
classic WB or Disney feature or short.) That would certainly give
meaning to the categories for long and short dramatic presentation.
Once we have more-or-less reached the present time, we could then
switch over to a time-bound set of rules (must have first appeared in
the last year, or perhaps last five or even ten years).

Alternatively, we could use a time-bound award but follow something
like the Hugo rules for retrospective awards.

>That leaves two categories. Best Illustration seems to be all right.
>Just change the qualifications for this to be in a publication whose
>payment was at least five dollars per page.

Perhaps instead of setting a fixed payment rate (which would need to
be adjusted for inflation, remember inflation?), we could again visit
the Hugo definitions for Fanzine, Semi-prozine, and prozine.

[snip]


>And I'd love for the Ursa Awards to discuss the following additions:
>
>Best Artist
>Best Writer
>Best Editor
>Best Publisher
>Best Convention, Gathering or Organization

Again, look at the Hugo rules for ideas on how to handle these.

>Okay, now that that is out of the way, another recommendation to make
>these less apathetic. Try tying the awards to a major convention.
>Further Confusion, Anthrocon, something where you'd get a great number
>of participants. Have the convention tack on an extra $5 or so to the
>membership, or $10 on all sponsorships, to cover the costs of the actual
>awards. Have a nice dinner, banquet, whatever, or tie it with the
>sponsor dinner/banquet to give out the awards. Invite all the people who
> are nominated for the awards to the banquet who can attend (presenting
>a physical award to a person is generally more exciting and noticeable
>than just printing a list of winners on a website).

This is an excellent point. A plaque or better yet sculpture
definitely carries more cachet.

The major SF awards (Hugo, John W. Campbell award) are handed out at
the SF Worldcon. Furry doesn't (currently) have a Worldcon
equivalent. We did once -- ConFurence -- but that died.

You could either select a single con, FC or Anthrocon, or you could
rotate them among the biggest cons.

Properly managed, the banquet is a moneymaker for the Con. You charge
just slightly more than the hotel charges you per plate. And a
reasonable-sized food function will help you negotiate a lower rate
for your function space, because the hotel makes (lots of) money off
the food.

If you manage to attach enough prestige to these awards, you will have
cons competing for the chance to award them. The SF Hugos have had to
put rules in place to restrict the tendency of concoms to hand out
"special awards" for their favorite hobby horse.

HTH
--
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and
to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples, promising
liberty and justice for all.

Chakat Goldfur

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Mar 12, 2004, 8:46:26 PM3/12/04
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Dave the Elector Count Hyena wrote:

>>I'm wondering whether it's apathy, disinterest or procrastination that
>>has resulted in the lack of response for my call for nominations for the
>>Ursa Major Awards. There are thousands of furry fans, and yet the
>>nominations have been woefully neglected.
>
> That's probably your fault then, Put more effort into promoting them.

The Awards were previously announced on this newsgroup with no response.
They have been announced on other online venues wherever we can find
them, but have problems with being pigeonholed in some. Example - Yerf
forums: The UMA announcement HAS to go in the advertisements section or
it will be moved there by a moderator. How many read the advertisements?
Very few, I assure you. We're also working to have them promoted through
as many conventions as possible all year. C-ACE is this year's venue for
the actual presentation of the Awards, but it's planned to rotate it
amongst other cons which fall into the appropriate timeframe.

> ATM, The awards carry no prestige or Cachet at all, precisely because
> nobody has heard of them.

We're young but we're trying to grow. Remeber though that
science-fiction was once a tiny and derided genre, but now it's huge and
has prestigious awards. It just takes time.

> And because they carry no prestige or cachet, No one is even
> interested in winning them.
>
> You also need to change you approach, Blaming it on the very people
> who you want to vote will simply put them off and squander what good
> will you have.

My sincere apologies. I wrote the article when I was both tired and
frustrated; not a good thing to do. I really didn't mean to insult
anybody; merely stir things up a bit. The basic message though is that
these Awards, if they are ever to grow and gain respect, need the input
of as many people as possible.

PlanetFur

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Mar 12, 2004, 9:02:34 PM3/12/04
to
Chakat Goldfur wrote:

> The Awards were previously announced on this newsgroup with no response.
> They have been announced on other online venues wherever we can find
> them, but have problems with being pigeonholed in some. Example - Yerf
> forums: The UMA announcement HAS to go in the advertisements section or
> it will be moved there by a moderator. How many read the advertisements?
> Very few, I assure you. We're also working to have them promoted through
> as many conventions as possible all year. C-ACE is this year's venue for
> the actual presentation of the Awards, but it's planned to rotate it
> amongst other cons which fall into the appropriate timeframe.

This happens quite a bit. Problem is, you'll have to promote them in a
fashion that would attract the same people you want to promote the
awards. That is, if you want someone to be proud of winning an Ursa
Major award, you'll have to pitch the award nominations to them.

Buy space in a furry comic or 'zine, promote yourself through con books
rather than only con events. Catch the larger cons rather than smaller
(C-ACE is a small con). Try areas that bend the limits of the genre,
such as fantasy or horror conventions.

> We're young but we're trying to grow. Remeber though that
> science-fiction was once a tiny and derided genre, but now it's huge and
> has prestigious awards. It just takes time.

Yes, but their awards were still directed at those who made the genre
what it was. The Ursa Major awards' categories and winners are mostly
OUTSIDE the genre, which won't get them prestige nor notice. There's
only one set of images on the UM page, for the co-director of Lilo &
Stitch. The award and the fact that only one person is shown accepting
may have turned nearly everyone off to winning.

The Hugos have a gimmick: The awards all contain the Hugo, the
rocketship representative of the man after whom the awards are named.
Perhaps the Ursa Major should have a plaque or a
crystal-with-laser-etched representation of the Big Bear constellation?
If you want people to care about these awards, put some money behind
them; in the long run, it'll be a good return investment if you pay heed
to what I stated earlier and watching what other awards do.

> My sincere apologies. I wrote the article when I was both tired and
> frustrated; not a good thing to do. I really didn't mean to insult
> anybody; merely stir things up a bit. The basic message though is that
> these Awards, if they are ever to grow and gain respect, need the input
> of as many people as possible.

No, they need to be respected and respective. Stop granting awards
outside the fandom, stop recommending titles and get better categories,
and start making it more prestigious. Instead of having events at nearly
every convention, have one ceremony for the awards and maybe one
announcement event for the final nominees. That's all you need!

Obviously the amount of promotion and the way you're doing it hasn't
amounted to an extreme level of care with the fandom. Something is
wrong. Take another look at it, evaluate what's been said, look at
awards such as the Bram Stoker and Hugo, and see what they're doing right.

Mike and Carole

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Mar 12, 2004, 9:19:03 PM3/12/04
to
Hey Bernard

We'd run a free ad for it IF WE HAD ONE.

Nobody's thought of sending us a camera ready thing sof it, but then again,
most cons don't either. You know, since you've stayed here, that we pick up
flyers for cons and run them as fillers. We'd do the same for the Ursa
Major Awards.

Mike


"Chakat Goldfur" <gold...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:c2sgg2$kro$1...@velox.critter.net...

Elector Palatine of the Rhine

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Mar 13, 2004, 7:42:52 AM3/13/04
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Chakat Goldfur <gold...@bigpond.net.au> shall never vanquished be
until great Birnam wood to high alt.fan.furry. hill shall come against
him.

>My sincere apologies. I wrote the article when I was both tired and

>frustrated; not a good thing to do. I really didn't mean to insult
>anybody; merely stir things up a bit. The basic message though is that
>these Awards, if they are ever to grow and gain respect, need the input
>of as many people as possible.

Awww, That's really kind and thoughtful, I would never apologise. I
accept your apology and apologise if I cause *you* any offence, For
what we write when we are tired is not fully under our control and we
cannot always be held fully responsible for its contents.

steve gallacci

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Mar 13, 2004, 9:53:09 PM3/13/04
to

> If you're amongst the apathetic, shake yourself and ask what you expect
> to get out of the fandom if you aren't willing to put anything into it?
>
> If you're amongst the disinterested, why are you in the fandom at all?
> It's not as if we're asking so much of you.

What, exactly do you mean in these two lines? More over, what's it to
you what the fandom's relationship to the genre is? I'd recommend you
reconsider your motives for this project instead of grousing about your
expectations of what the fandom ought to be doing for you.
The fans are under absolutely NO obligation to you, me, or anyone or
anything in the genre or fandom.
As a content provider, I do have an obligation to serve my audience, but
beyond the hope that they will respect me enough to pay for my product,
the audiance/fans have not further obligation to me, nor would I expect
anything. That they might become supportive fans is simply gravy. And
that fannish enthusiasm is entirely one-sided. The fan has no
responsibility or obligation to the subject of his/her interest beyond
what he/she is freely willing to give.
Now, for you to make demands of the fans in any way and for any reason
is just wrong-headed and misses the point of fannishness.
If you were simply creating a focus for a popular ground swell of desire
to pay special attention to meritorious works, then that would be just
peachy.
But if you have to chide the fans into paying attention to you and your
self-important project, then I'd suggest you seriously rethink this
whole thing.

Chakat Goldfur

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Mar 13, 2004, 10:31:55 PM3/13/04
to
Steve,

Elsewhere in this thread I have already apologised for the tone of my
article. I unreservedly repeat my apology for what I said and I wish
that I could remove the article entirely. I was very tired and
frustrated at the time that I wrote it and that was the result. I'm
heavily involved in many aspects of the fandom and I let my frustrations
get to me. I was wrong.

However, while I don't believe the Awards are the self-important project
that you suggest they might be, I do consider them worthy as yet another
aspect of the fandom.

steve gallacci wrote:

--
Chakat Goldfur
URSA MAJOR AWARDS - http://www.ursamajorawards.org

Allen Kitchen

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Mar 14, 2004, 12:29:14 AM3/14/04
to
Chakat, I shall assume you have only the noblest of intentions.
Your history in the fandom doesn't lead me to believe you are
doing the Ursa Major awards for any self-glorification or personal
axe-grinding.

However, I will say that if this award is supposed to be a furry
wide award, say something along the lines of the Hugos, then it
really should be run like such. Have you examined how the Hugos
are run? With nominating commitees that select the choices and
the overall group of writers who pick the winners in the different
categories? It would be somewhat difficult to duplicate that in
furry (as it appears you are trying to do) for several reasons.

First, SFWA is a professional organization and there are no parallels
in the furry genre. Unlike straight SF the furry genre doesn't really
have a professional side to it. There are plenty of professionals
within it and certain skillsets necessary to put on a con, that's true.
But Furry as a fandom is almost entirely about fun and fans amusing
each other. There's not a group of furs making their living out of
creating anthropomorphic stuff for mass consumption as exists in SF
circles.

Second, if you get together with a bunch of people to make it an
all encompassing genre-wide award, then it really should encompass
everyone in the genre. Who currently decides which artists get
picked for the list? What criteria are used? Over what time
period are entries accepted? Where are the awards given? What
sort of prize is attached? Right now I, as a fan, know next to
nothing about your award and who is running it. For all I know,
you are rolling dice and all the nominees are personal friends of
yours. I'm not saying that that's the case, only that without a
bit of transparency and other people's involvement that is could
be.

If you really want to make this award work, consider getting all
the conventions involved. Make a set of awards for each convention
and get them involved. Then, at the end of the year, all those
winners are the entrants to the final competition online between
Xmas and New Years. This will make the awards more meaningful and
public at the same time.

Just my two cents.

Allen Kitchen

BR

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Mar 14, 2004, 1:05:38 AM3/14/04
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On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 05:29:14 +0000, Allen Kitchen wrote:

> There's not a group of furs making their living out of creating
> anthropomorphic stuff for mass consumption as exists in SF circles.

I'd say that it's more "diffused" than absent.

--
-- James Fenimore Cooper
The tendency of democracies is, in all things, to mediocrity, since the tastes,
knowledge, and principles of the majority form the tribunal of appeal.

Chakat Goldfur

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Mar 14, 2004, 11:45:24 AM3/14/04
to

Allen Kitchen wrote:

We're working on improving it. However, a lot of your questions can be
answered at the website - http://www.ursamajorawards.org

Sorry, no time for more details at the moment. It's Monday on this side
of the world and I need to get a bit of sleep before going to work.

Karl Meyer

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Mar 14, 2004, 2:15:06 PM3/14/04
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"Chakat Goldfur" <gold...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:c32273$31p$1...@velox.critter.net...

>
>
> Allen Kitchen wrote:
>
> > Chakat, I shall assume you have only the noblest of intentions.
> > Your history in the fandom doesn't lead me to believe you are
> > doing the Ursa Major awards for any self-glorification or personal
> > axe-grinding.

I'll second that opinion.

As to the rest of this, here are my thoughts.

Those nominated should really be members of the fandom or at least friendly
to it. Works created by individuals or companies who've demonstrated or
stated antipathy for the fandom in general shouldn't qualify for an award
given by it.

There seem to be too many catagories for the size of the fandom.

The aformentioned idea of making the award itelf nice enough to be sought
after is a good idea. I know of at least one company that will do 3d laser
bubble images in acrylic. They aren't real cheap, but they aren't out of
range either if you limitted how many you'd be doing. I suspect doing more
than one of the same image would cut the cost a bit since part of the charge
has to be for the setup. A paper certificate or cheap dollar store trophy
just isn't going to cut it when the prestige of the award really hasn't been
established. If the various conventions could be gotten in on this, maybe
they would be willing to help at least some with the costs.

People ultimately vote with their feet, wallets, and time. If the results of
that show no interest in these awards, maybe the time for them isn't right.


Iller

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Mar 14, 2004, 11:12:47 AM3/14/04
to
Coming up in the hour..
King Gallacci says: "There is no throne!"

Fillm at 11


"steve gallacci" <bev...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:4053C934...@comcast.net...


"Fans" have an obligation to kiss our asses goodbye if we put a lot
of work into something for public release and all we hear back is
crickets. A high quality of output throughout a genre is just like
democracy, it has to be fought for to be kept. The "I don't owe
you shit" mentality is the single most desctructive tendancy that ANY
community can have.

"hope that they will respect me enough to pay for my product" has
become a sad statement on a bypass gate for the Napster kiddies
who knew they'd be tolerated a lot more than some killjoy artist
sayin' "Gimme my Dues!"

"But if you have to chide the fans into paying attention to you and your

self-important project," ..Is a very good point on the other hand too.


steve gallacci

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Mar 14, 2004, 9:54:54 PM3/14/04
to

I don't think you like me, since you didn't really address the relevant
issues and instead use it as a "snipe at that fucker Gallacci" .
I don't know who you are or what your issues with me might be, but you
could at least be more honest and straight-forward in your attacks and
keep the original thread on topic.

Iller

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Mar 14, 2004, 11:46:18 PM3/14/04
to

"steve gallacci" <bev...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:40551B1E...@comcast.net...

>
>
> Iller wrote:
> >
> > Coming up in the hour..
> > King Gallacci says: "There is no throne!"
> >
> > Fillm at 11
> >
> >
> > "Fans" have an obligation to kiss our asses goodbye if we put a lot
> > of work into something for public release and all we hear back is
> > crickets. A high quality of output throughout a genre is just like
> > democracy, it has to be fought for to be kept. The "I don't owe
> > you shit" mentality is the single most desctructive tendancy that ANY
> > community can have.
> >
> > "hope that they will respect me enough to pay for my product" has
> > become a sad statement on a bypass gate for the Napster kiddies
> > who knew they'd be tolerated a lot more than some killjoy artist
> > sayin' "Gimme my Dues!"
> >
> > "But if you have to chide the fans into paying attention to you and your
> > self-important project," ..Is a very good point on the other hand too.
>
> I don't think you like me, since you didn't really address the relevant
> issues and instead use it as a "snipe at that fucker Gallacci" .
> I don't know who you are or what your issues with me might be, but you
> could at least be more honest and straight-forward in your attacks and
> keep the original thread on topic.

Actually I'd never snipe at you and I never have in the 5 years I've
been here. That first comment was cheesey satire. And obviously I
agree with atleast one of your points. But let's not go too far with
that and turn it into a "why are YOU attention whoring" thread cuz
we all got our own problems =\ Let's not lose sight of the fact that
newbies entering the genre see what goes on and associate it as being
the norm -- so it's never a bad time to start building a more supportive
fan base instead of an apathetic one.


Iller

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Mar 15, 2004, 12:14:55 AM3/15/04
to

"BR" <brodr...@comcast.MUNGED.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.03.14...@comcast.MUNGED.net...

> On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 05:29:14 +0000, Allen Kitchen wrote:
>
> > There's not a group of furs making their living out of creating
> > anthropomorphic stuff for mass consumption as exists in SF circles.
>
> I'd say that it's more "diffused" than absent.
>

"Diffused"? How about One-Big-Pothole


Gene Breshears

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Mar 15, 2004, 7:01:43 PM3/15/04
to
>Okay, next. Fanzine. Why just Fanzine and not Magazine? There are
>commercial publications in the furry fandom, such as FurNation,
>Anthrolations, etc. There's a huge difference between what
professional
>publications can afford to do and what amateur publications can do.

Um, hello? FurNation and Anthrolations ARE fanzines. Yes, there is a
wide variation in quality, from the zines that print anything that's
sent to them, to those of us who reject stories or insist upon
substantial rewrites before publishing. Some pay a small fee or offer
free copies, others don't, but they are fanzines, nonetheless.

I realize as a member of the awards committee I have info other people
don't have, and I can't begin to explain how dismayed I was at the
tone of Chakat's posting about the awards. He apoligized here and to
the other committee members already, however, I strongly suggest in
future, that before you type a really long diatribe (this goes for
several of you) suggesting things that WE ARE ALREADY DOING, maybe you
should have clicked on the link to read about the awards.

-Gene Breshears

Martin Skunk

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Mar 15, 2004, 7:12:08 PM3/15/04
to

"Gene Breshears" <genebr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:365232a5.04031...@posting.google.com...

> Um, hello? FurNation and Anthrolations ARE fanzines. Yes, there is a
> wide variation in quality, from the zines that print anything that's
> sent to them, to those of us who reject stories or insist upon
> substantial rewrites before publishing. Some pay a small fee or offer
> free copies, others don't, but they are fanzines, nonetheless.

Isn't it easier to say, "if they've got no ISBN, they're fanzines"?
:)

---Martin Skunk


PlanetFur

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Mar 15, 2004, 7:43:02 PM3/15/04
to
Gene Breshears wrote:

> Um, hello? FurNation and Anthrolations ARE fanzines. Yes, there is a
> wide variation in quality, from the zines that print anything that's
> sent to them, to those of us who reject stories or insist upon
> substantial rewrites before publishing. Some pay a small fee or offer
> free copies, others don't, but they are fanzines, nonetheless.

However, FurNation and Anthrolations are far beyond, let's say, Huzzah!,
in terms of what they accept, since more professional artists and
writers tend to do work for pay rather than for a contributor copy or two.

The Hugos recognize Fanzines and Semiprozines. The latter includes such
periodicals as the Locus Magazine, which is more of a trade magazine for
science fiction.

I still feel, though, that FurNation, Anthrolations, and other
periodicals which publish regularly (well, FurNation's still lagging
behind in this department), are in a different category of craftmanship
than fanzines. Fanzines deserve recognition against other fanzines and
not against more commercial, or the case may be, semiprozines.

> I realize as a member of the awards committee I have info other people
> don't have, and I can't begin to explain how dismayed I was at the
> tone of Chakat's posting about the awards. He apoligized here and to
> the other committee members already, however, I strongly suggest in
> future, that before you type a really long diatribe (this goes for
> several of you) suggesting things that WE ARE ALREADY DOING, maybe you
> should have clicked on the link to read about the awards.

You're doing the Ursa Majors a disservice with your tone and arrogance,
then, in saying we don't know what's going on and we should stop and
think before replying. Has anyone really *cared* about winning an Ursa
Major award enough to put it on a publication, resume, or tag themselves
with such? "Ursa Major Award-winning Artist So-and-so"? If not, then the
Ursa Majors aren't really worth anyone recommending or nominating, let
alone voting or promoting them.

Awards are plentiful anywhere. Anyone online can say, "I'm starting a
new awards program, nominate away!" Even years later, I still see icons
for a site or person who won some award that some site gave out, but
that's about it.

You have to go above and beyond this to make the UMs something people
would like to see associated with their work or name. This has nothing
to do with what's going on where we can't see or hear; this has
everything to do with the public perception.

If you're doing any of these, then I'm glad you're moving to make them
more than just a fan-run award that's just a piece of paper framed, and
anyone (including people who could give a rat's ass about furry fans,
like Dreamworks or 4Kids) can win.

Next time, perhaps you should be a little more cordial with those of us
posting here, as in reality, WE, the entire fandom and genre, decide
whether the Ursa Majors are worth anything, not the committee who passes
them out.

Charles Melville

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Mar 20, 2004, 12:57:51 AM3/20/04
to

Martin Skunk wrote:

Well, no, it wouldn't.

The difference that people seem to be reaching for is one between a fanzine
and a magazine, both of which are periodicals. An ISBN is assigned to a book.
Periodicals would get assigned an ISSN. Provided, of course, that they applied
for one.

--
-Chuck Melville-
Comic book fanatic and sometimes-creator-type-person


Charles Melville

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Mar 20, 2004, 1:09:16 AM3/20/04
to

PlanetFur wrote:

> Gene Breshears wrote:
>
> > I realize as a member of the awards committee I have info other people
> > don't have, and I can't begin to explain how dismayed I was at the
> > tone of Chakat's posting about the awards. He apoligized here and to
> > the other committee members already, however, I strongly suggest in
> > future, that before you type a really long diatribe (this goes for
> > several of you) suggesting things that WE ARE ALREADY DOING, maybe you
> > should have clicked on the link to read about the awards.
>
> You're doing the Ursa Majors a disservice with your tone and arrogance,

(snip)

> Next time, perhaps you should be a little more cordial with those of us
> posting here,

Aren't you reading a little more into Gene's post than is actually there?
I'ver reread it a few times now and still can't pick up on the 'arrogance' you
seem to be reacting to. It seems to be basically a caution against jumping to
conclusions. Which seems to be pretty reasonable. And it -did- seem fairly
cordial to me.

> as in reality, WE, the entire fandom and genre, decide
> whether the Ursa Majors are worth anything, not the committee who passes
> them out.

And the committee is -not- part of the fandom and genre??? Volunteers
from the main body, even???

PlanetFur

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Mar 20, 2004, 1:53:34 PM3/20/04
to
Charles Melville wrote:

>>You're doing the Ursa Majors a disservice with your tone and arrogance,
>
>
> (snip)
>
>
>>Next time, perhaps you should be a little more cordial with those of us
>>posting here,
>
>
> Aren't you reading a little more into Gene's post than is actually there?
> I'ver reread it a few times now and still can't pick up on the 'arrogance' you
> seem to be reacting to. It seems to be basically a caution against jumping to
> conclusions. Which seems to be pretty reasonable. And it -did- seem fairly
> cordial to me.

I think it was pretty much how it started off that set the tone for the
entire posting. The "Um, HELLO" aspect, really said that the poster was
saying, "You idiot!", more than anything else.

This thread was about pushing guilt onto the fans for not getting
motivated to nominate. Chakat apologized, but in the end, fans still
aren't getting motivated. A couple of people, myself included, gave
input into how this may be changed. Instead of taking it on, the post
above was given.

Not really a way to get people motivated.


>>as in reality, WE, the entire fandom and genre, decide
>>whether the Ursa Majors are worth anything, not the committee who passes
>>them out.
>
>
> And the committee is -not- part of the fandom and genre??? Volunteers
> from the main body, even???

Doesn't matter whether they are. If only the committee cares about the
UM awards as part of the fandom, the whole fandom still doesn't care.

The WHOLE, let me repeat that, WHOLE, fandom has to care about the
awards for them to matter. Not 100%, but each category of the awards
needs to say, "This is how to determine who is really putting forth a
great effort to showcase quality anthropomorphic works", or something
similar.

If only the awards people are doing this, or the awards people and maybe
a fanzine, then still, it's a worthless award.

iBuck

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Mar 21, 2004, 10:40:18 AM3/21/04
to
>And the committee is -not- part of the fandom and genre??? Volunteers
>from the main body, even???

Even if they are members of the fandom, he's talking about the importance the
fandom as a whole attaches to the awards.. if the majority of the fandom
doesn't think the award is important, the comittie can't do much about that...
"You can have it Quickly,Correct, Complex - Pick 2"

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