Icefox Studios- Commissions now Available
lady_...@my-deja.com
Commissions by Karen "Icefox" Krajenbrink, along with Beth "Ashryn"
Schultz are now available at http://www.icefox-studios.net/. Inquire
within ;)
-Icefox
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Brian McGroarty
I assume Disney pays when commissioning furs aren't?
---
"Never explain. A friend who needs explanation isn't worth
keeping." -- Erle Stanley Gardner
<lady_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7ilkuu$66p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Michael Russell (Netcom)
> Schultz are now available at http://www.icefox-studios.net/. Inquire
> within ;)
Karen's artwork looks really neat. I would love to commission
a piece or two; but for various reasons I no longer prepay artists.
I would like to ask anyone planning to commission artwork from
Beth Schultz to please talk with me first.
--
Cheers - Mike "Flafox" Russell # ICQ: 19110833
IBM Global Services # E-mail: mrus...@ix.netcom.com
Orlando, FL # or msru...@us.ibm.com
"The World of Vicki Fox" # Web: http://www.vickifox.com
lady_...@my-deja.com
commission post... I didn't expect any replies... but they are greatly
appreciated. Thank you.
Brian McGroarty
news:374F3B06...@ix.netcom.com...
> > Commissions by Karen "Icefox" Krajenbrink, along with Beth "Ashryn"
> > Schultz are now available at http://www.icefox-studios.net/. Inquire
> > within ;)
>
> Karen's artwork looks really neat. I would love to commission
> a piece or two; but for various reasons I no longer prepay artists.
That's a shame. I'm sure a few artists will comment if I'm wrong, but:
I have a feeling that furs, being the flakes most are, would be positively
famous for going all out in describing a nice, big expensive commission only
to drop the idea completely a few hours later. They may or may not get
around to telling the artist who's working on their piece already and/or
budgeting their next month's meals with that check in mind.
Now, I've commissioned a few furs, and most want at least something up front
if you're not already an acquaintence. Hey - they've got social collateral.
;)
But I also have to say that all I've dealt with have offered at least a few
rough sketches up front or once you say payment's on its way so we could
agree on the pose, composition and sometimes even the price. Yeah, the
Icefox studios approach of wanting full payment before pencil ever touches
paper is unusually harsh, but it's hardly reason not to do business either.
Brian McGroarty
> Beth Schultz to please talk with me first.
That's not really fair. From the sound of it, you're insinuating that
there's a problem, and that's going to be enough to scare a lot of furs away
without even looking into it. Better you leave her the chance to defend
herself if there's a problem...
So, put it out on the table - what's wrong with dealing with Ms. Schultz?
Michael Russell (Netcom)
I can only share my experiences regarding commissioning artwork. Maybe
these are unique to me because I approach commissioning artwork from a
very business-like and professional manner. I take great pride in giving
the artists a lot of flexibility. Other than a monthly reminder notice,
I leave the artists alone to work their magic.
I am very thankful for the many artists who have blessed me with
artwork. I know it takes time to do this and I fully appreciate it.
I store all my commissions either in frames or museum quality archival
storage cases. There are many times where I have spent more on the
material to store the commissioned artwork than I spent on the commission
itself.
I fully know that an artist does not have to work on my request.
After all, who am I? I'm just some stranger who hopes to exchange some
money for a pretty picture.
I make no demands on an artist other than what I demand from myself
-- honesty, trust, and open communications.
Now, back to the issue of prepayment.
Here are my commission statistics for the last three years. This
reflects data through the end of April. I'll let you draw your own
conclusions.
Basically, out of 11 prepaid commission, 7 of them have defaulted, with
a total out-of-pocket loss of about $365. Also, the only two prepaid
commissions to be delivered to date were worked under the terms of a written
contract.
Defaulted means that given the time that has passed and the amount of
communications I receieve from the artist, I can safely assume that
the artist will not deliver the artwork.
Nbr Nbr Nbr Nbr Nbr Avg Amt
Status Artist Comm Prepay Sketch Default Time Lost
----------+-------+-----+-------+--------+---------+------+--------+
Asked | 9 | 11 | | 2 | | 5 | |
Accepted | 17 | 18 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 9 | 100 |
Working | 10 | 12 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 9 | 55 |
Working? | 1 | 1 | 1 | | 1 | 23 | 60 |
Cancelled | 9 | 12 | 4 | | 4 | 11 | 150 |
Stopped | 1 | 1 | | | | 9 | |
Rejected | 4 | 4 | | | | | |
Finished | 43 | 77 | 2* | 4 | | 5 | |
----------+-------+-----+-------+--------+---------+------+--------+
TOTAL | 75 | 135 | 11 | 8 | 7 | -- | 365 |
* = both of the finished, prepaid commissions involved written contracts.
DEFINITIONS:
Asked -- These are artists I have asked for a commission but who have
not replied whether they will do it or not.
Accepted -- These are artists who have formally accepted a commission
but have not notified me that they have started work.
Working -- These are artists who have notified me they are working
on the commission.
Working? -- This is a special class of working where I would consider
stopping the commission but I really want to get the picture.
Cancelled -- This is when the artist cancels the commission
Stopped -- This is when I stop the commission
Rejected -- This is when the artist reject the commission
Finished -- These are finished, delivered, and paid commissions.
Nbr Artist == Number of artists
Nbr Comm == Number of commissions
Nbr Prepay == Number prepaid
Nbr Sketch == Number wanting pay at sketch or before delivery
Nbr Default== Number of prepay that I believe will default
Avg Time == Average number of months in this status
Amt Lost == Amount of money lost on prepay to default
Pelzig
>I have a feeling that furs, being the flakes most are, would be positively
>famous for going all out in describing a nice, big expensive commission
>only
>to drop the idea completely a few hours later. They may or may not get
>around to telling the artist who's working on their piece already and/or
>budgeting their next month's meals with that check in mind.
I've had several rather bad run-ins with fans commissioning me for artwork.
Without naming names ( and, for the most part, all of them have been in the
anime fandom as opposed to the furry one ), here are some cases:
1) A person sends me a rather lengthy letter ( multiple pages ) with copies of
poses from various girl mags as well as copies from manga series they like.
They desire to have me illustrate said characters from the manga in the poses
from the mags. Thats it...little description...just basically duplicate the
pose using the manga characters. Well, the first two go off without incident.
The third gets returned to me with a note stating that they wanted the manga
character as a portrait, i.e., render the character as what they would look
like in real life, something totally out of my bounds as a cartoon artist and
something not specified at all in the original letter. They get a refund. The
fourth time was another fiasco. I am to render two characters in a pose...done
and sent to the person. It gets returned to me saying the characters were not
done in the _manga_ rendition, as opposed to the _OVA_ renderings of the same
characters which I used as model sheets. Again, something not stated in the
letter. So far, this one is in limbo, but, will result most likely in a partial
refund and a request that business not be conducted with me again.
2) This one involved a switch. I get a letter in the mail with a fairly decent
description of the piece...its pretty detailed, but was put to paper according
to the guidelines and sent off for inspection. What I get back was a completely
different scenario, that the original letter was bascially moot and never
existed...what it should be is this, this, that, this and that...all of which
added up to a totally different commission from what it was originally sent to
me as. The final result for this one was about a poster size piece ( around 30"
X 45" ) and I certainly passed along the additional costs to the point the
original $45 piece was well over double that. While the client was happy, it
illustrates how they can totally redefine what they originally asked
for...usually after you have begun the work.
I can, however, safely say that, for the most part, I've had very fine
relations with commissioners who've been more than fair. The good folks do
outweigh the bad and troublesome.
TCASF,
Pelzig
Cerulean
>That's a shame. I'm sure a few artists will comment if I'm wrong, but:
>
>I have a feeling that furs, being the flakes most are, would be positively
>famous for going all out in describing a nice, big expensive commission only
>to drop the idea completely a few hours later. They may or may not get
>around to telling the artist who's working on their piece already and/or
>budgeting their next month's meals with that check in mind.
>
>Now, I've commissioned a few furs, and most want at least something up front
>if you're not already an acquaintence. Hey - they've got social collateral.
>;)
In the graphic design biz, a common rule of thumb is one-third to
start work. I know it's a good rule because I break it all the time
for friends and family and consistently regret it.
Out of mild curiosity, could someone in Southern California tell me if
there are ads for "Corporate Motors" in the papers, and what their
logo looks like?
--
___vvz /( Cerulean * http://www.cerulean.st/
<__,` Z / ( DC.D/? f s+ h++ Gm CB^P a $ d+++ l* g- e! i
`~~~) )Z) ( FDDmp4adwsA+++$C+D+HM+P-RT+++WZSm#
/ (7 ( uos+JaqoJ hq7op sewoyL - ,,'p!ouewnH h7uo w,I,,
lady_...@my-deja.com
First off... I'd like to say I'm quite new to this commissioning thing.
So the primary rules set down on my studio page were what I felt was
right at the time. Currently they are in the process of being redone.
As a few that have dealt with me on commissions on the past couple days,
they will know (and I dont boast often) that I try to work with them as
much as possible.
One *very* wonderful, *very* patient commissioner actually pushed me
to put out a lil ad here on Deja.com and I am VERY thankful to him for
prodding me :) (Ya know who ya are...)
Currently today, i worked with one guy who was gracious enough to
commission me and after chatting, we agreed that one third of the
payment would be due *after* I sketched out at least two roughs for him
and scanned them, the rest would be due when I sent it off to him after
approval. So if you felt that things were a bit harsh on the webpage...
just take a moment to email me...I'm more than willing to work things
out with folks.
One lil point I will tell ALL new artists when commissioning. DO
NOT...I repeat...DO NOT scan the image large enough that it fits the
entire monitor... simply because it makes it easier for those trying to
rip you off.... to just print out your art and be done with you... I've
seen it happen... its not pretty, its happened to a couple friends of
mine >:{ If someone asks for a larger scan (sometimes quality is poor)
Maybe it would help to ask what part they'd really wanna see and then
just scan that part... I'm trying my best to find ways to avoid these
idiot rip offs....
Oh... sometimes...folks wonder...what does this money go to... and for
me...here's my lil list...
-Art Supplies
-College
-Moving Out
-San Diego Comic Con! (WOO!)
Well in any case...I believe I've filled my page.... ;P
Sincerely,
Icefox
"Feed Your Starving Artists!"
XianJaguar
immediate and swift treatment, with sketches arriving in e-mail within a week
or so of the check arriving, and the entire project done in a reasonable amount
of time. (Unless the specify otherwise that they have specific deadline that
may be months in the future, and it is pre-arrangd that I can take my time)
However, if a client does NOT pre-pay, their stuff gets pushed back behind the
paying clients. Why? Because I have been screwed out of money more times than I
can count. I have more commissions laying around here finished, and ready to
put in art shows, cause the person backed out after I sent them the color gif.
<< One lil point I will tell ALL new artists when commissioning. DO
NOT...I repeat...DO NOT scan the image large enough that it fits the
entire monitor... simply because it makes it easier for those trying to
rip you off.... to just print out your art and be done with you... I've
seen it happen... its not pretty, its happened to a couple friends of
mine >:{ -Icefox>>
I have learned this the HARD way! A large ugly watermark may help as well.
Free pictures and requests get finished with me, but just not as fast as paying
clients.
Mr Russell had asked for a picture (inked and colored no less!) for his
sketchbook from me, so I agreed. I do not know if he includes me in his posted
commissions statistics-but it has been more than several months since he asked
for it. He saw the sketch at CF10, and the final is inked on bristol board and
just needs color, and is sitting on my dining room table. No rush for
me....there was no sealed obligation. The thing was essentially free. Oh, he'll
get it, and it will be done as beautifully as I can color, but for now, my pic
trades and paid clients need top priority. It just makes good business sense.
My best friend Meg was commissioned by him as well. She got pre-paid from him,
along with being given a piece of bristol board to do the commission on!
Naturally, with that sort of treatment he has his final pic already.
So, that's my take on the whole thing. It's a shame that some artists do not
deliver upon payment, but I will say this ....I have never ever defaulted on a
PAYING customer!
Not that many have paid....so it's easy to keep a good track record. And in
this event, I will NOT do any more commissions, unles I AM pre-paid at least
half of the commission first. (Unless, of course, a pic looks interesting, and
I do it for free cause you are a friend.)
OK, I guess I yapped long enough.
XianJaguar
archive at www.yerf.com/dianbren
Michael Russell (Netcom)
> Mr Russell had asked for a picture (inked and colored no less!) for his
> sketchbook from me, so I agreed. I do not know if he includes me in his posted
> commissions statistics-
Yes. You are listed among the statistics for status "working".
> for it. He saw the sketch at CF10,
I saw a sketch. But at CF10 you said you didn't like it and was
thinking about reworking it.
> and the final is inked on bristol board and
> just needs color, and is sitting on my dining room table. No rush for
> me....there was no sealed obligation. The thing was essentially free.
It was supposed to be a form of "thank you" for my helping
as an auctioneer at the art show at CF10.
If you want me to pay in order to finish the project, let me know.
After all, it is just a con sketchbook drawing and I'm more than
happy to support artists.
> My best friend Meg was commissioned by him as well. She got pre-paid from him,
> along with being given a piece of bristol board to do the commission on!
> Naturally, with that sort of treatment he has his final pic already.
I asked for a sketchbook drawing from Meg Giles at CF10. She
was not able to work on it at CF10, so I gave her the bristol
board and self-addressed stamped envelope. I did not pre-pay. Once
she finished the drawing, she sent me a small scan to indicate
she was done. I then, within a couple days, mailed her the payment
we agreed upon. She trusted me and mailed the artwork at about the
same time. So, I received the artwork at the same time she
received my payment.
Ucalegon
on eBay? I never have because I've never bought anything
expensive enough to be worth the trouble and commission.
Acag, Treesong (ucal...@aol.com)
Cerulean
>> Mr Russell had asked for a picture (inked and colored no less!) for his
>> sketchbook from me, so I agreed. I do not know if he includes me in his posted
>> commissions statistics-
>
> Yes. You are listed among the statistics for status "working".
As some of you may know, I care about word usage, and this is a biggie
in the furry fandom that I would like to see people keep in mind:
If no money is paid, I don't think it counts as a "commission."
I don't like getting my hopes up when someone says they'd like to
commission me, when they really just mean they'd like me to draw a
picture for them.
Donald E. Sanders
kevin...@worldnet.att.net says...
> Quoth Michael Russell:
>
> >> Mr Russell had asked for a picture (inked and colored no less!) for his
> >> sketchbook from me, so I agreed. I do not know if he includes me in his posted
> >> commissions statistics-
> >
> > Yes. You are listed among the statistics for status "working".
>
> As some of you may know, I care about word usage, and this is a biggie
> in the furry fandom that I would like to see people keep in mind:
>
> If no money is paid, I don't think it counts as a "commission."
>
> I don't like getting my hopes up when someone says they'd like to
> commission me, when they really just mean they'd like me to draw a
> picture for them.
>
Ok, I guess that clears it up for some folks, but for me, it deepens the
mystery even further.
On the off times I do mention commissions, since I don't normally charge
for my artwork due to quality issues, (Yes I give my stuff away!), I
consider a commission as it as stated, as being commissioned for the
person who it was intended for. I have done such in the past for at
least 4 people at no charge and despite of them wanting to throw money in
my direction, I refused.
For professionals and those amateurs good enough to make a profit from
their craft, the standard definition of commission still stands. But for
me, it means to me as I stated it, nothing more, nothing less.
Sorry if this sounded a bit angry, just a grumpy old chow venting old
alpo gas.
--
Don Sanders
Dsan Tsan on #furry of Yiffnet
RoadKill Fur (Sun baked sorta but not burned!)
Amateur Artist at Roll Yer Own Graphics
http://www.dreamscape.com/dsand101/dsan.htm
(my furry page) Email dsan...@future.dreamscape.com
XianJaguar
In a message dated 5/30/99 3:41:43 PM, mrus...@ix.netcom.com writes:
<< It was supposed to be a form of "thank you" for my helping
as an auctioneer at the art show at CF10.
If you want me to pay in order to finish the project, let me know.
After all, it is just a con sketchbook drawing and I'm more than
happy to support artists.
>>
It is a thank-you, but it's still has to take lower priority. (meeps..sorry! I
do try, but I get behind.) My whole illustraion was why some things take
longer than others. (unfortunatly, I got way too eager in saying "thank-you" to
my staff, and didn't realise how many sketches I would have to do! So, I am
behind....)
<< I asked for a sketchbook drawing from Meg Giles at CF10. She
was not able to work on it at CF10, so I gave her the bristol
board and self-addressed stamped envelope. I did not pre-pay. Once
she finished the drawing, she sent me a small scan to indicate
she was done. I then, within a couple days, mailed her the payment
we agreed upon. She trusted me and mailed the artwork at about the
same time. So, I received the artwork at the same time she
received my payment.>>
She made it sound like she had the payment before the final inked and colored
drawing. (not rough sketch.) My point is that often I would have the ENTIRE
thing done for clients who SAID they would pay, and send them the final colored
gif, and...they'd print it out, I guess. Just like IceFox studios said. Blech.
Always use a watermark!!!
I guess my entire point of the letter is I feel I can't be included in your
stats when it's techincally not a commission. It's throwing the artist image
off (by a factor of 1), cause it's not a paid commission, really, it's a gift.
And no, you still don't have to pay, as I did say I would do it for free.
XianJaguar
DeWayne Stuart
>In a message dated 5/30/99 3:41:43 PM, mrus...@ix.netcom.com writes:
Regarding the sending of an email scan, I have to agree that you've
got to be careful about sending too good a scan.. Tho, the few
commishes that Shannon's done and we've e-mailed out samples of, have
received prompt and pleasant acknowldgements and payments. And Mike
Russell has got to be one of the best people to work with/for when it
comes to commissions. Patient and knows what he wants.. (Took about 8
months or so. Within the expected time window. And with prelim and
'working' sketches sent, now and then.) Even when dealing with us
neophytes..;-)) Thanks, Mike!
urs, DRS the crazed..
Kay Shapero
X>However, if a client does NOT pre-pay, their stuff gets pushed
X>back behind the paying clients. Why? Because I have been screwed
X>out of money
Actually it works both ways - you'll find people who prepaid for things
they never got, and are thus a bit wary about tossing all of their money in
first. How well does it work if you split the difference, and require a
deposit, rest of the money to be delivered upon completion?
Cerulean
>Actually it works both ways - you'll find people who prepaid for things
>they never got, and are thus a bit wary about tossing all of their money in
>first. How well does it work if you split the difference, and require a
>deposit, rest of the money to be delivered upon completion?
It works well. It's what most creative fields do. One-third to start
work is a good guideline.
Sinyx
>they never got, and are thus a bit wary about tossing all of their money in
>first. How well does it work if you split the difference, and require a
>deposit, rest of the money to be delivered upon completion?
>
I've always found that spitting payment like this works just fine. I myself
usually will discuss an image with the person commissioning from me and once we
decide on something..I will start on rough sketches. When we basically know
what we both are looking at work wise a final price is decided on and I require
half of the payment before I start on any form of "finished" image. The client
gets small scans of the image as I finish it to check on the progress and once
it is completed the second half of the payment is sent to me and recieved
before I send out a picture. I have worked this way for a while so far and have
never had any problems so far or have heard any complaints from those
commissioning from me. Plus if ever needed, I am usually pretty flexible..some
folks can only send 1/3 at first..some prefer to send the whole lump sum before
I start...that's their choice and I am always open to discuss payment methods.
People have been burnt on both ends of commissioning jobs on issues of payment,
so a system like this can at least give some sort of feeling of gaurentee to
both sides!
~Sinyx
*SilverBorn Creations*
Anthropomorphic and Fantasy Art
http://members.xoom.com/Sinyx
Michael Russell (Netcom)
I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier. The artwork commission
process is very similar to what I do as an I/T Architect consultant.
Business model
--------------
(1) Client sends consulting company a "Request for Proposal". This is a
formal document that expresses the interest to hire the company and what
the client wants the company to do.
PARALLEL: A fan asks an artists for a drawing or painting.
(2) Consulting company prepares a "Proposal". This is a formal reply
that contains details about what the company will do, how much it will
cost, and the schedule for completion.
A good consulting company will know not to put too many technical details
in the proposal. It is not uncommon for some clients to send requests
solely to get the proposal and then the client implements the proposal
themselves.
The consulting company bears the cost of preparing the proposal. Idealy
the costs of preparing the proposal will be recovered in the project
if the client accepts the proposal. It is part of the overhead costs in
the proposal's budget.
PARALLEL: The artist prepares a preliminary sketch of the request. The
artist sends a small scan of the sketch, cost, and estimated schedule to
the fan.
(3) If the client accepts the proposal, then the client and consulting
company negotiate payment terms. Typically two forms of payment terms
are available -- progress payments and completion payment. Unless a
client has an established payment record or a good credit standing, the
consulting company will request progress payments.
Progress payments would involve payment by the client of a portion of
the total cost spread evenly over the life of the project. The consulting
company must provide progress information and intermediate results in
order to obtain progress payments.
Completion payment would involve payment by the client within 30 days
of the completion of the project. The consulting company must successfully
deliver the project.
Often the payment terms also include penalty clauses. This is what the
consulting company agrees to refund the client in the event the project
takes longer than expected or if the results are not satisfactory (that
is, meet the original requirements agreed upon in the proposal).
PARALLEL: The artist can accept progress payments of, say 1/3-rd, the toal
price at various stages during the project. However, the artist should
provide progress information and intermediate products. If the fan has
an established record of ontime payment, the artist should be willing to
consider completion payment.
Timothy Fay
artist is spelled out in any of the Artists' Market publications.
It is similar to the one you describe and has been used for years.
In addition to what you wrote, the client usually has a right to
expect a limited number of revisions from the artist. But the
client ultimately has to to pay for what they requested, whether
they like the artists' work or not. The client has the option to
go with another artist for any future work, so it is usually in
the artist's best interest to develop good working relationships
with their clients.
-Tim
--
http://www.umn.edu/~fayxx001/
"Hey, ho -- let's go!" -Ramones
Michael Russell (Netcom)
> In addition to what you wrote, the client usually has a right to
> expect a limited number of revisions from the artist.
That should be specified in the proposal and resulting contract.
(If this is done in the professional graphics arts world.)
> But the
> client ultimately has to to pay for what they requested, whether
> they like the artists' work or not.
True. Each party is responsible for the agreed upon contract
for services -- whether a formal document, a handshake at a
convention, or agreement expressed in e-mail or ICQ conversation.
> The client has the option to
> go with another artist for any future work, so it is usually in
> the artist's best interest to develop good working relationships
> with their clients.
True. There are several artists I have commissioned and they
eventually delivered the artwork; but because of the difficulty
working with them or the poor quality of the result, I will not
commission them again, no matter how much I like their artwork.
Cerulean
>Howdy,
>
>> In addition to what you wrote, the client usually has a right to
>> expect a limited number of revisions from the artist.
>
> That should be specified in the proposal and resulting contract.
> (If this is done in the professional graphics arts world.)
Yes indeed. Everything should be specified. Especially since the
clients are often used to a different paradigm than the artists.
Joseph Harrison
> IShe made it sound like she had the payment before the final inked and colored
> drawing. (not rough sketch.) My point is that often I would have the ENTIRE
> thing done for clients who SAID they would pay, and send them the final colored
> gif, and...they'd print it out, I guess. Just like IceFox studios said. Blech.
> Always use a watermark!!!
>
> XianJaguar
Here's a pair of thoughts from the peanut gallery-
1) Send a gif of a key part of the picture so they get the impression, and know
its done, but they don't get the whole picture 'til its paid for.
2) Here's a solution from a few porn sites. Free preview have the website name
over the middle of the picture. Although you can see what the picture is, its not
very useful like. If they like the picture then they'd have to pay.
XIP the kangy