Got spooge?
Xydexx Squeakypony
> Why is there so much pornographic material being
> created for this particular fandom?
Why not?
There's nothing wrong with spooge. Nobody's forcing anyone to look at
spooge. Nobody's forcing anyone to draw spooge.
In the Grand Scheme Of Things, worrying about what other people like to
draw isn't very important to me.
--
_________________________________________________
Xydexx Squeakypony http://www.xydexx.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Xydexx Squeakypony
> Xydexx Squeakypony wrote:
> > There's nothing wrong with spooge.
>
>
> "Portal of Evil", anyone?
I see.
So you're anti-spooge, then?
--
_________________________________________________
Xydexx Squeakypony http://www.xydexx.com
"If we're going to be damned, let's be damned for
who we really are."---Jean-Luc Picard, Star Trek
Sarenthalanos
<FromTheDes...@stukafox.com> wrote in message
news:8middi$242$3...@nntp1.ba.best.com...
> Xydexx Squeakypony <xyd...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
> > There's nothing wrong with spooge.
>
>
>
> Save the negative reflection it generates for the hobby.
>
> "Portal of Evil", anyone?
>
>
This is not directed completely at you, but a bit in general as well.
To sum up this possibly long-winded spiel::
Live with it, it's part of life.
By your logic, then all anime carries a bad light because of hentai/ecchi
works, and the "tentacle thing" plagues many USA anime-style artists who
take themselves a bit too seriously. The Japanese artists don't care
whatsoever, because in their culture, anime is like movies to US culture.
It has material for kids, material for teens, and material for adults. If
you have been in more than one college-level sociology class (I think it's
third-year that they stress this), then you would know that in a "Free
Society", which US is basically a variant of free-society, people tend to
"group" people together, for easy identification. In a place where there is
an abundance of material...let's face it, the human mind in it's simplicity
likes to categorize people/topics into groups based upon their own ideas,
despite any misconceptions and mistruths, etc. So, to most USanians, Anime
is all the same.
Now, let's apply this to the BDSM subculture.
A lot consider the BDSM subculture to promote rape and such, even if that's
not the truth at all. I'll throw a couple of misconceptions at you, and how
they are grouped. These are not the truth, but it's how "mainstream" people
look at the subculture.
"BDSM people like to tie other people up and have their way with them."
"Rapists like to tie other people up and have their way with them."
Now, the human mind will put 2 and 3 together and get 4. Most people would
not bother getting the whole facts before making their assumptions (insert
Benny Hill joke here, if you'd like), because they like simplicity. Now,
onto the next assumption (feel free to insert aformentioned joke from above
here as well).
"BDSM people like to hurt and dominate over other people for the feeling of
power."
"Serial killers/rapists often hurt people for the feeling of dominance and
superiority."
It leads to too many misconceptions and assumptions.
Then, let's look at some art.
Some think that ANY kind of nudity is pornography. Neverminding the fact of
artwork and the early Olympics. The human body is a tad hard to draw
correctly, and from trying my hand at it a couple of times, I'll settle with
architecture anyday. Yeah, it's easier, but it's what I can do with my huge
hands. Back to the point of this paragraph. Some think that ANY bit of
nudity is exploiting whomever, or is designed to be offensive. Those are
the ones that likely got raised around nudie mags being "pure evil", so
anything that has a bit of nudity MUST be "evil" as well.
Now, onto furry.
So some make incorrect assumptions. Big deal. If they want to be like
cattle and eat everything they are fed, instead of learning about things on
their own, then that's their problem. You know furry doesn't mean 90' herm
dogs with erections that can knock over buildings (no offense Doug), but
it's a part of the fandom nonetheless. Just like Fritz the Cat and Bugs
Bunny can both be grouped together because they are cartoons. Bring in
someone that doesn't know much about cartoons, and have them watch Fritz,
then Bugs Bunny....of course, when they see ol' Bugs plant one on Yosemite's
kisser, they might draw the conclusion that all cartoons might be that way.
But it's THEIR fault if they don't want to learn more about it. If they are
going to be half-assed about it, then they can go through life with those
kinds of assumptions, and may natural selection take it's course. And then,
you have to figure on the US being one of the most Puritanistic societies on
the planet. Hell, the BBC doesn't care too much to censor out sex
references. But the US is quick to jump on that, etc.
But then, of course, the US is so diverse enough to be the only country that
could possibly tolerate the Christian Coalition, where their spokesmen are
treated like gods themselves (idolizing, anyone?), and where it's ok to
harrass others "because it's God's will" or "it's in the name of God". They
can label whatever tey want as "evil", and forget the Amendment that states
Freedom of Religion, but unfortunately your Freedom stops where another's
begins. Anyways, I digress...
I've talked about this before, but it's impossible to get rid of the spooge
or "unwanted stuff". I'll admit I like browsing through a lot of archives
of plain, cheesecake, and even a bit of hardcore spooge. So everyone might
as well live with it, because it's not going away. If you want to try and
get a better light on the fandom, and educate people a bit more, then do so.
Make informative places where people can learn about furry and it's various
diversities, so they know that their first assumtpion was incorrect.
Complaining about it does nothing, informing would help a lot more than
hurt, if it was done well.
Anyways, I'm off the soap box for now, and apologies once again for snapping
earlier today.
--
-Sarenthalanos
]=-----------------------------------------------=[
|\ | |\ /| /\ http://fallout.gamestats.com
| \ | | \ / | /__\ No Mutants Allowed
| \| | \/ | / \ Your #1 Fallout site
]=-----------------------------------------------=[
MouseHouse
> I've talked about this before, but it's impossible to get rid of the spooge
> or "unwanted stuff".
Notwithstanding the points you've made, I question the legitimacy of the word
"unwanted" in this issue, given how widespread these media are in furrdom.
--
***********
Visit the MouseHouse!
http://www.furnation.com/mousehouse/
Xydexx Squeakypony
> I'm pro-image. Spooge is part of the whole scene, I just wish it
> wasn't such a big or easily noticable part.
I'm pro-image too. I guess the difference with me is that I see sites
like Portal of Evil that make this stuff easily noticable are more of a
problem than furry artists who put warnings and stuff up so folks can
easily avoid it.
Leslie_R
>
> Xydexx Squeakypony <xyd...@blowmy-dejanozzle.com> wrote:
>
> > I see.
>
> > So you're anti-spooge, then?
>
> wasn't such a big or easily noticable part.
>
to paraphrase Captain Packrat earlier "you don't like the image it gives
the fandom? encourage people to stop pointing at it and yelling"
-Leslie
--
"Now we are so happy, we do the Dance of Joy!"
-Balki Bartokamouse
Hangdog
> Xydexx Squeakypony <xyd...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > There's nothing wrong with spooge.
>
> Save the negative reflection it generates for the hobby.
>
> "Portal of Evil", anyone?
Furry Fandom: Portal of Evil or a Bozo Nightmare?
--Hang(One's gotta weasel anna other's gotta flag)dog
FromTheDes...@stukafox.com
> There's nothing wrong with spooge.
Save the negative reflection it generates for the hobby.
"Portal of Evil", anyone?
StukaFox
FromTheDes...@stukafox.com
MechaSquirrel
>Xydexx Squeakypony <xyd...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> There's nothing wrong with spooge.
>
> Save the negative reflection it generates for the hobby.
The only negative reflection I've percieved is what some of the
members of the hobby themselves think of it.
From what I've seen, we're pretty spotless, compared to several.
Hentai, anyone?
MechaSquirrel
FromTheDes...@stukafox.com
> The only negative reflection I've percieved is what some of the
> members of the hobby themselves think of it.
You should perhaps check out www.portalofevil.com to see what
people outside the hobby are saying.
StukaFox
FromTheDes...@stukafox.com
> I'm pro-image too. I guess the difference with me is that I see sites
> like Portal of Evil that make this stuff easily noticable are more of a
> problem than furry artists who put warnings and stuff up so folks can
> easily avoid it.
If the stuff is going to be out there on the web, the realistic
expectation has to be it's going to be seen, since that's the whole
idea of putting it out on the web. The image damage to the hobby
isn't negated simply because you feel the real problem is that
someone outside the hobby shone a light on some less salient aspects
of the hobby that were being presented for the whole world to see
in the first place.
The 'real politik' of the situation is that people with no idea of
what furry is aren't going to look at Gontermann, et al, and go
"Gosh, that awful Portal of Evil put this on display for everyone
to see!", they're gonna go "What the FUCK is wrong with these people?"
which is fully evidenced by the feedback PoE has recieved on each
furry site posted.
The argument that furry's image problem is in fact the problem of
everybody BUT furry falls hopelessly limp as more and more lights
get shone on more and more dark corners.
StukaFox
FromTheDes...@stukafox.com
> to paraphrase Captain Packrat earlier "you don't like the image it gives
> the fandom? encourage people to stop pointing at it and yelling"
That idea, while sweet, is also tragically naive'. More and more
sites like Portal of Evil are going to find an easy target in
furry -- yelling at them to stop making us look bad, well, makes
us look bad. Neighbors complain about your house being an eyesore?
Don't blame your neighbors, clean up your backyard. As I've said
before, as long as furry is handing out ammo, it shouldn't be suprised
when someone takes a shot at it.
StukaFox
Leslie_R
>
> Leslie_R <tro...@atoka.net> wrote:
>
> > to paraphrase Captain Packrat earlier "you don't like the image it gives
> > the fandom? encourage people to stop pointing at it and yelling"
>
> That idea, while sweet, is also tragically naive'. More and more
> sites like Portal of Evil are going to find an easy target in
> furry -- yelling at them to stop making us look bad, well, makes
> us look bad. Neighbors complain about your house being an eyesore?
> Don't blame your neighbors, clean up your backyard.
but if there is a fence around yoru backyard but people keep pering over
it, maybe turning off the lights on the bakc porch and turning on the
ones on the front to show off the well-maicured lawn would be an idea..
spooge is here, it may tarnish the fandom or it may not.. instead of
arguing over it's effect on th efandom image do something abut the
image itself
As I've said
> before, as long as furry is handing out ammo, it shouldn't be suprised
> when someone takes a shot at it.
>
> StukaFox
Hangdog
> FromTheDes...@stukafox.com wrote:
> >
> > Xydexx Squeakypony <xyd...@blowmy-dejanozzle.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I see.
> >
> > > So you're anti-spooge, then?
> >
> > I'm pro-image. Spooge is part of the whole scene, I just wish it
> > wasn't such a big or easily noticable part.
> >
> > StukaFox
>
> to paraphrase Captain Packrat earlier "you don't like the image it gives
> the fandom? encourage people to stop pointing at it and yelling"
Yet another attempt to blame the messenger...
Xydexx Squeakypony
> Yes, spooge is here, and it's not going away. It even serves a
> purpose, but why is there only one 'Yerf'?
Probably because some folks would rather complain instead of actually
doing something to fix the problem.
At least that's my opinion, based on the fact that there's nothing
stopping anyone who wanted another 'Yerf' from creating one. But then,
I've always thought creating things you like accomplishes more than
complaining about the things you don't. -:)
FromTheDes...@stukafox.com
> but if there is a fence around yoru backyard but people keep pering over
> it, maybe turning off the lights on the bakc porch and turning on the
> ones on the front to show off the well-maicured lawn would be an idea..
> spooge is here, it may tarnish the fandom or it may not.. instead of
> arguing over it's effect on th efandom image do something abut the
> image itself
Furry's 'fence' is about an inch high and labled 'Warning: this
place is a mess, but if you're offended by the site of it, it's
all your fault. We're perfect, you have the problem.'
Yes, spooge is here, and it's not going away. It even serves a
purpose, but why is there only one 'Yerf'?
StukaFox
Xydexx Squeakypony
> The argument that furry's image problem is in fact the problem of
> everybody BUT furry falls hopelessly limp as more and more lights
> get shone on more and more dark corners.
The argument is not that it isn't our problem.
The argument is that Portal of Evil is deliberately skewing the image
they're presenting.
We may not like it, but aside from banning all spooge art, I don't see
how it'll stop it from happening.
Since spooge art isn't going away, it's pretty pointless to suggest
people stop drawing it or putting it online. It's far more productive
to direct newcomers to things like Yerf and put things like that in the
spotlight instead.
Support what you like. Ignore what you don't.
FromTheDes...@stukafox.com
> The argument is not that it isn't our problem.
The sites are ours, but they're not our problem?
> The argument is that Portal of Evil is deliberately skewing the image
> they're presenting.
PoE isn't out to present any view -- they're out to laugh at freaks.
We're being laughed at, because we're being viewed as freaks.
> We may not like it, but aside from banning all spooge art, I don't see
> how it'll stop it from happening.
'Restraint'.
>
> Support what you like. Ignore what you don't.
The problem with ignoring problems is they sometimes come back and
bite you.
StukaFox
Sarenthalanos
<FromTheDes...@stukafox.com> wrote in message
news:8mj2tl$ult$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com...
> Xydexx Squeakypony <xyd...@blowmy-dejanozzle.com> wrote:
>
> > The argument is not that it isn't our problem.
>
>
> The sites are ours, but they're not our problem?
Then if we want to be taken seriously, then we should do something about it.
> > The argument is that Portal of Evil is deliberately skewing the image
> > they're presenting.
>
>
> PoE isn't out to present any view -- they're out to laugh at freaks.
> We're being laughed at, because we're being viewed as freaks.
Time to educate people then.
> > We may not like it, but aside from banning all spooge art, I don't see
> > how it'll stop it from happening.
>
>
> 'Restraint'.
Not feasable nor likely. Spooge will be there, that's a fact we have to
live with. Not that I'm against it or anything.
However, I believe that education is the most viable option.
Telling the mockers to piss off isn't doing anything.
Telling fellow fans that they shouldn't draw spooge only gets everyone at
each other's throats.
So that leaves educating. Which I have seen a startling LACK of what most
fandoms have, and that is an in-depth explanation and introduction.
We could compile something to tell about how things are a part of the
fandom, or things might be practiced by the fandom, but they are not
necessarily THE prime aspects of the fandom.
> >
> > Support what you like. Ignore what you don't.
>
>
> The problem with ignoring problems is they sometimes come back and
> bite you.
Unfortunately, just sitting back and griping causes even more problems.
So what's left?
Let's try to educate people on what "furry" means, to try and get them to
understand a bit more about it.
Then, providing they have sufficient practice with their residential
gray-matter, things shouldn't be so bad.
Skytech
> At least that's my opinion, based on the fact that there's nothing
> stopping anyone who wanted another 'Yerf' from creating one. But then,
> I've always thought creating things you like accomplishes more than
> complaining about the things you don't. -:)
>
I always noticed people find it easier to honk the horn than hit the brakes.
--
Skytech
Skytech
> You should perhaps check out www.portalofevil.com to see what
> people outside the hobby are saying.
>
Both of them? :)
--
Skytech
Xydexx Squeakypony
> Xydexx Squeakypony wrote:
> > The argument is not that it isn't our problem.
>
> The sites are ours, but they're not our problem?
> > The argument is that Portal of Evil is deliberately skewing the image
> > they're presenting.
>
> PoE isn't out to present any view -- they're out to laugh at freaks.
> We're being laughed at, because we're being viewed as freaks.
We're being laughed at because they had no intention of doing otherwise.
The world doesn't revolve around Portal of Evil, though.
> > We may not like it, but aside from banning all spooge art, I don't see
> > how it'll stop it from happening.
>
> 'Restraint'.
How is that different from banning all spooge art?
> > Support what you like. Ignore what you don't.
>
> The problem with ignoring problems is they sometimes come back and
> bite you.
I still don't think what other people like to draw is a problem.
--
_________________________________________________
Xydexx Squeakypony http://www.xydexx.com
FromTheDes...@stukafox.com
>>
>> 'Restraint'.
>
> How is that different from banning all spooge art?
- It comes from within, not from without. It's putting selfishness
aside for the good of the whole hobby. It's saying 'I'm not going
to sell out my hobby just so I can make some money off other
people's mastubatory fantasies' or 'This probably doesn't so much
represent furry as it does my own sexual fantasies, so I won't
associate this stuff with furry on my web page' or even 'I'll show
my tamer erotica stuff on the web-page, but the raunchier stuff
I'll put behind a password-protected frontdoor, and people can
email me for the password if they want it.'
It's that easy. No censorship, no banning -- self-restraint. You've
done it yourself on your own web pages; are you any poorer for it?
StukaFox
Xydexx Squeakypony
> Xydexx Squeakypony wrote:
>
> - It comes from within, not from without. It's putting selfishness
> aside for the good of the whole hobby. It's saying 'I'm not going
> to sell out my hobby just so I can make some money off other
> people's mastubatory fantasies' or 'This probably doesn't so much
> represent furry as it does my own sexual fantasies, so I won't
> associate this stuff with furry on my web page' or even 'I'll show
> my tamer erotica stuff on the web-page, but the raunchier stuff
> I'll put behind a password-protected frontdoor, and people can
> email me for the password if they want it.'
password?
I agree that folks shouldn't go putting the raunchy stuff in other
people's faces as an introduction to furry fandom, but the fact remains
Portal of Evil just finds this stuff because---as even you
admit---they're just out to "laugh at freaks," not to write a balanced
view of furry fandom.
Point is, if we can find the ranchy stuff, so can they. The only way to
stop them from finding it is to eliminate it entirely. That means none
of us can find it either.
So how would self-restraint be any different from banning all spooge art
if the net effect is the same?
FromTheDes...@stukafox.com
>
> Uh-huh. And what will stop Portal of Evil from emailing for the
> password?
It's against their rules. Same reason they don't post passwords
to other sites.
> Point is, if we can find the ranchy stuff, so can they. The only way to
> stop them from finding it is to eliminate it entirely. That means none
> of us can find it either.
It's a target-rich vs. a target poor-environment. Right now,
we're target rich. Look how many furry sites PoE lists right
now -- if there were only one, it could pretty much be overlooked,
but as it stands now, furry is about to get its own PoE catagory.
It's not all going to go away, no matter what. If we could lower
the volume, that would help.
And for the last part, finding it ourselves, we do access resources
people outside the hobby aren't likely to access: MU*'s, IRC areas,
conventions and comics. These would probably be good venues for
sharing that sort of information.
StukaFox
Al Goldman
>>Stukafox wrote
>> > We may not like it, but aside from banning all spooge art, I don't see
>> > how it'll stop it from happening.
>>
>> 'Restraint'.
Get the perverts into The Furry Closet.
The facts remain:
No one's religious or personal values are valid for the entire body of furry
fandom.
No one controls furry fandom - copyright, trade marks, etc.
No one has a consensus on what is proper furry behavior.
No one could enforce any standard we would develop.
Regardless of your view of the subject, adult material is a major part of furry
fandom. Wishing that the Evil Pervert Furs would just be quite and go away will
do nothing.
Dwelling on the Treehouse and the Portal Of Evil will also do nothing, except
reinforce a massively distorted view of furry fandom.
We are forced to accept every legal activity by adults in furry fandom - we
have no right or authority to do otherwise, (unless we control some small part
of the fandom like a con or a zine).
People with strong religious beliefs do manage to remain in furry fandom
without dwelling on the objectionable aspects of the fandom. It's called
"tolerance" - learn it, live it. Not because you believe in unlimited personal
freedom but because your experinces in furry fandom will be enhanced when you
stop wasting time fighting unwinable battles.
Maybe some Christian furries could provide some insight on the topic of
tolerance, and how they deal with legal but objectional material.
No furry closets.
>>Stukafox
>Xydexx Squeakypony
Al Goldman
I always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific.
Lily Tomlin
SilverJain
the micking department. A search on the word "furry" yielded only 16 sites. I
counted over 1000 sites on several different pages before I lost track. There's
no doubt somewhere around 2-3000 sites listed.
And only 16 are tagged "furry". (And a lot of those I wouldn't count as furry
at all...) Think about it-- 16 out of possibly 2-3000? Hmm.
They seem to make fun of goths, trekkies, lonely dateless people, gays, white
supremacists, fundamentalist Christians, pedophiles, Japanese fetishists and
just all around kooks far more than they make fun of furries.
Just something I noticed...
--Elin
PS I thought a lot of the commentary and sites on Portal of Evil was hilarious,
but then I have a mean sense of humor.
"Well that's it then, you see what you wanna see and you hear what you wanna
hear." -- The Rock Man, "The Point"
Selling my collections! Check out the deals here:
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/silverjain/
Radio Comix Online:
http://www.radiocomix.com
David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)
<xyd...@BLOWmy-dejaNOZZLE.com> wrote:
>Stukafox wrote:
[...]
>> 'Restraint'.
>
>How is that different from banning all spooge art?
Because with restraint we are still free to BDSM art?
--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See
http://dformosa.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more.
Al Goldman
silve...@aol.comspampie (SilverJain) writes:
>
>And only 16 are tagged "furry". (And a lot of those I wouldn't count as furry
>at all...) Think about it-- 16 out of possibly 2-3000? Hmm.
>
True, but David Gonterman and Doug Winger both made the site top 10 list.
Xydexx remains in the regular furry list.
Gonterman stranger than Xydexx? The folks at PoE know nothing about weird! :-)
Al Goldman
Do not stand in our way! We will walk around you!
The Perky Goth Manifesto
Farlo
>Do not stand in our way! We will walk around you!
>
> The Perky Goth Manifesto
*Fits of giggling*
--
Farlo
Urban fey dragon
m>^_^<m
Al Goldman
(Farlo) writes:
>Al Goldman wrote:
>
>>Do not stand in our way! We will walk around you!
>>
>> The Perky Goth Manifesto
>
>*Fits of giggling*
>
The full text is somewhere on Gothbunny's webpage, http://www.gothbunny.net
Al Goldman
Richard Chandler - WA Resident
> No one's religious or personal values are valid for the entire body
> of furry fandom.
Right, not even that much vaunted "Tolerance" that some people insist all
furry fans have, by nature of being furries. Far from being universal, it
seems more to be tolerance for the Outre', and none for the more normal.
> No one controls furry fandom - copyright, trade marks, etc.
Those, of course, are individual
> No one has a consensus on what is proper furry behavior.
Yeah, there are some whose standard of behaviour consists of "Do what thou
wilt" minus the "An' it harm none" part. Those sorts are usually the ones who
most vigorously fight any attempt to establish proper rules of conduct. It's
gotten so bad that conventions have to write explicit rules of conduct into
their program guides because some people can't be trusted to behave
themselves.
> No one could enforce any standard we would develop.
Here's a question for you. CAN a subculture establish rules for behavior and
methods of enforcing them? Why can't Furry?
--
"if Marylin Manson has more of an influence on a kid than the kid's parents
do, then maybe the parents need to look at how they're raising their kids."
-- Charlie Clouser, Keyboardist, Nine Inch Nails.
Spammer Warning: Washington State Law now provides civil penalties for UCE.
Xydexx Squeakypony
>Xydexx Squeakypony wrote:
> >Stukafox wrote:
> >> 'Restraint'.
> >
> >How is that different from banning all spooge art?
>
> Because with restraint we are still free to BDSM art?
Woohoo! Three cheers for restraint! Where do I sign up? -:)
Xydexx Squeakypony
> True, but David Gonterman and Doug Winger both made the site top 10 list.
> Xydexx remains in the regular furry list.
>
> Gonterman stranger than Xydexx? The folks at PoE know nothing about weird! :-)
I guess they don't think I'm trying hard enough.
("But I'll show them... I'll show them ALL... muahahahaha...") -;)
Rust
>
> Sarenthalanos wrote:
>
> > I've talked about this before, but it's impossible to get rid of the spooge
> > or "unwanted stuff".
>
> Notwithstanding the points you've made, I question the legitimacy of the word
> "unwanted" in this issue, given how widespread these media are in furrdom.
Well there's the crux, innit?
-Rust
--
We are the instruments of creation - what we dream, is.
Remove ".netspam" from my address to reply
Rust
>
> MechaSquirrel <mechas...@nocrosswindsspam.net> wrote:
>
> > The only negative reflection I've percieved is what some of the
> > members of the hobby themselves think of it.
>
> You should perhaps check out www.portalofevil.com to see what
> people outside the hobby are saying.
What one intentionally vicious person outside the fandom is saying, you
mean.