ICK! I've officially been "Bobbed"!

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Furplay

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Jul 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/25/00
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I just got back from San Diego Comic-Con a couple days ago. I've been
doing a lot of catching-up since, but I thought I'd write a post.

One experience there made me realise just how much I now respect the
level of tolerance and patience of some artists I know. Only a saint
could have endured for a day what they seemed to have put up with for
over several years.

You see , I have officially been "Bobbed" at the con.

How it all happened was that I was chatting with a lady artist at the
Antarctic Press booth. She has no prob with hentai fare (heck, she
*encourages* it), and, since I was looking for more material involving
my DS characters, I handed her some character concept illos drawn by DEN
as a referrence.

Anyway, as I was over at the other end of the booth (it was a corner
table), the guy (who has seen Bob enough times to spot him from a mile
off) leaned over and said "Oh no. here comes "Bondage Bob". Not ever
having seen this legendary fanboy "in person", I took notice and kept a
wary eye on him as he was being his loud self in front of Fred Perry
(with several kids nearby, but Bob either never knows or never cares). I
had a fear prior to the con that as my art book was being passed around,
Bob would get his grubby fingers on it (this guy would make Toys R Us
circular seem dirty of he started leafing through it). I would have even
been less worried if there was a sarin gas attack in the convention
center. A twitching death I can understand. Bob pawing through my
collection was a true horror indeed. We KNOW where THOSE fingers have been!

And would'nt you know it. As if by psychic force, Bob wanders to the
part of the table where the female hentai artist I was talking to was,
and he IMMEDIATELY PICKS UP THE REF ART I HAD LEFT FOR HER. It's like
he's an "idiot savant" that has Zero tact and manners, but can detect a
furry tit at 100 yards.

Knowing that if he finds out about DEN and his works (and will no doubt
make an ass of himself in front of the guy at a future ConFurence, and
guess who DEN will thank later for that?), I quickly walked over to him,
took the ref sheets out of his hands like a schoolteacher snatching a
Hustler out of a 1st grader's hands (good thing they were already in
plastic sheets protectors that can be replaced) and simply said "Nonono!
They're not for *you* to look at!".

Bob shuffles away for a bit, with that "spanked puppy" look on his face,
but then he later comes back, thinking that if he walks away for a while
and comes back later, you will have forgotten all about him (if only....).

Then he makes a beeline back to me, starts to ramble a bit, and then he
notices the name on my badge, saying "OH, *YOU'RE* MICHAEL HIRTES! I
BOUGHT SOME OF YOUR BOOKS FROM YOU (ie, "I BUGGED YOU ON THE PHONE WITH
DUMB QUESTIONS ABOUT THE NEXT ISSUE AND ASKED IF FRED PERRY IS IN IT,
AND BOUGHT A COPY FROM ED ZOLNA ANYWAY!"). I screwed my right pinky
finger deep into my ear canal ("Must........control........."Fist of
Death!") and Fred was good enough to shoo Bob away, knowing that I was
becoming *this* close to popping this walking turd one serious-ass whack
across that bloated coconut he keeps between his hat and his neck.

And at the furry party where I had my Furplay table, Bob yet again not
understanding just how much I seriously despise him (I still hold him
directly responsible for the way he moneywrenched things for making
Desert Storms a story in A-Bomb with Fred back in '94), starts to reach
over to my zines/folios. Not wanting to have to burn anything he touches
later, I hold my rage in check long enough to calmly-but-firmly say to
him "Dennis, I'll say this only once. You've caused me a lot of grief in
the past, you've ruined a very important project for me that I held
dear, and I would like it very much if you would stay away from me.
Very, VERY far away from me". The hint seemed to stick with him longer
than 2 seconds this time, and he backs away, and spends the rest of the
party over at Martin's table nearby, constantly looking over at me with
that "spanked puppy" face the whole time before he eventually leaves.

I'm telling you. Fred and Daphne 100% right. You can encounter Bob over
the phone or over the mail, but to have him give you "the Live Show" is
a seriously traumatic experience indeed! I am completely dumbfounded how
or why this person(?) could have gotten so far along in life without
Darwinism intervening.

I'm surprised I have'nt had Bob's dad (aka "Bob Sr.") phone me up by now
and bitch me out for being such a meanie towards his precious little pinhead.

So to all you artists that have been "Bobbed" several times over the
many years, you have my profound awe and respect.

--
"There ought to be limits to freedom." -- GW Bush commenting about the
parody site at http://www.gwbush.com

bevnsag

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Jul 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/25/00
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Jeeze, all you have to do is talk slowly and clearly, unambiguously
instructing him to either go away or limit what he can or cannot ask,
say, or do. I don't have a problem with him at all because I'm civil,
polite, and to the point. He doesn't bother me with wierd-nasty requests
because I clearly state I don't do them, and he respects that.

Yes, he looks kind of nasty and he isn't above requesting some fierce
stuff and has no sense of appropriate or in-context behavior. Frankly,
he isn't that too far off from the rest of the crowd, but simply lacks
the veneer of fannish pretense.

He is not, by and large, asking or doing all that much differnt/worse
than many of the acceptable crowd, but being a bit retarded, is too
obvious about it.

If any of you really don't want to deal with him. Then tell him, clearly
and calmly that you don't. Attacking, harassing, or generally abusing
him won't do it. He simply doesn't get it.

Besides, he is a really big fan, more than happy to pay well for what he
wants, and is personally very hurt by some of the attacks against him
(many being cruelly unfair, considering what some of you raunch-mongers
deal with).

FromTheDes...@tiredoftypingthisbyhand.com

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Jul 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/25/00
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bevnsag <bev...@home.com> wrote:

> Besides, he is a really big fan, more than happy to pay well for what he
> wants, and is personally very hurt by some of the attacks against him
> (many being cruelly unfair, considering what some of you raunch-mongers
> deal with).


I always figured this guy was some made-up stereotype.

Guess not.

StukaFox

Furplay

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Jul 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/25/00
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bevnsag wrote:
>
> Jeeze, all you have to do is talk slowly and clearly, unambiguously
> instructing him to either go away or limit what he can or cannot ask,
> say, or do. I don't have a problem with him at all because I'm civil,
> polite, and to the point. He doesn't bother me with wierd-nasty requests
> because I clearly state I don't do them, and he respects that.
>
> Yes, he looks kind of nasty and he isn't above requesting some fierce
> stuff and has no sense of appropriate or in-context behavior. Frankly,
> he isn't that too far off from the rest of the crowd, but simply lacks
> the veneer of fannish pretense.
>
> He is not, by and large, asking or doing all that much differnt/worse
> than many of the acceptable crowd, but being a bit retarded, is too
> obvious about it.
>
> If any of you really don't want to deal with him. Then tell him, clearly
> and calmly that you don't. Attacking, harassing, or generally abusing
> him won't do it. He simply doesn't get it.
>

Oh, but there's the rub. As mentioned, he seems to have a very
short-term memory. You can tell him, but he'll come back later, acting
like you never said anything, thus the need to tell him to leave all
over again.

If you make it with a proverbial exclamation point though, there's a
chance the message will imprint for longer than a duration of 15 minutes.

As I mentioned, even after I made my feelings towards him crystal clear
in the dealer's room, he *still* kept coming back to try to paw through
my stuff later at the furry party.

Granted, he seems to have become a lesser form of himself after he got a
serious talking down to, but it seems the overall "ICK!" factor is still there.

> Besides, he is a really big fan, more than happy to pay well for what he
> wants, and is personally very hurt by some of the attacks against him
> (many being cruelly unfair, considering what some of you raunch-mongers
> deal with).

But the "raunch-mongers" at least know that they're in a public place,
and will try to show some tact (or at least not shout their lurid art
requests within earshot of anyone, small children included). If I had a
particular hentai type pic I'd like to have drawn, I'd (a) browse
through the artist's books to see if they have done any ecchi stuff
already (b) if I don't see any, ask the artist if they even dabble in
ecchi/hentai fare to begin with, (c) ask if they have a list of "do's"
and "don'ts" for subject fare, (d) write the request down on a sheet of
paper or make the request before/after the con via private email, and
keep it as a strict artist/client communication. Bob has and continues
to fail miserably in these points. The guy even tried to get Mike "Green
Arrow"/"Warlord" Grell to do him some spooge. I can only shudder at the
thought of Bob asking Mr. Decarlo for some Josie & the Pussycats smut
(which he has asked other artists to do).

Mental retardation has nothing to do with it. The guy is just plain
freakin' nauseating. I'd sooner prefer to be stuck in an elevator of
Kevin Duane clones than see Bob again.

AJL

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Jul 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/25/00
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bevnsag wrote:
> He is not, by and large, asking or doing all that much differnt/worse
> than many of the acceptable crowd, but being a bit retarded, is too
> obvious about it.
>
> If any of you really don't want to deal with him. Then tell him, clearly
> and calmly that you don't. Attacking, harassing, or generally abusing
> him won't do it. He simply doesn't get it.
>
> Besides, he is a really big fan, more than happy to pay well for what he
> wants, and is personally very hurt by some of the attacks against him
> (many being cruelly unfair, considering what some of you raunch-mongers
> deal with).

Dennis ("Bondage Bob's" real name) stopped by where I was set up with
The ConFurence Group's stuff a couple times over the weekend. At one
point, he looked at the Mitch Beiro CF11 Shirt and said "Beiro, right?"
I nodded in reply... "Mitch Beiro always treats me bad." At which
point, I stated calmly, as if to a child, "Well, that's because you
always ask for the more adult artwork, and Mitch doesn't like to draw
that." He nodded... looked a bit confused as if figthing an epiphany
from being realized, and walked quickly away from the booth.

You gotta feel sorry for him on some level... his mind isn't fully wired
and so it doesn't work the way most people's do. However, his money is
good, and I know of many artists who bitch about him in public, but
still take his commission money.

There's room for everyone in the fandom... it's not too hard to avoid
the ones that you don't personally like.

--Darrel.

Furplay

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Jul 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/25/00
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AJL wrote:
>
>
> You gotta feel sorry for him on some level...

Perhaps I would have too, but as I mentioned, his unfathomable stupidity
resulted in costing me a chance in doing a project with a well-known
artist in a comic that would have paid pretty handsomely per page too.
For that, he gets zero respect and -100% mercy from me.

Furplay

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Jul 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/25/00
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Tlalocelotl Tlatoani wrote:


>
> Furplay wrote:
> >
> > AJL wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > You gotta feel sorry for him on some level...
> >
> > Perhaps I would have too, but as I mentioned, his unfathomable stupidity
> > resulted in costing me a chance in doing a project with a well-known
> > artist in a comic that would have paid pretty handsomely per page too.
> > For that, he gets zero respect and -100% mercy from me.
>

> Alright, I've got to ask. What was it he did?
>
> TT de la GWP


Alrightee, since you did ask........

Once upon a time (1994) Fred Perry & I were planning to do a story for
A-Bomb. It was what the "Desert Storms" storyline ended up becoming in
Genus, exept that we had the characters as humans instead of furry, and
it was going to be published in color (a good $50+ per page, mind you).
Fred had the first batch of pages all penciled up and ready to ink.
Really sweet looking stuff too. It would have seriously rocked.

That is until..............

Fred was at a con when "Bob" showed up. And in his typically boneheaded
fashion, he starts to slobber in high decibels to Fred about a
commission he wanted of Cheetah with nipple rings and a collar, being
sold in a slavemarket. Fred does do hentai, but he does NOT do hentai of
his Gold Digger characters, so he politely declined and tried to explain
to Bob the reasons why.

Bob then whips out a copy of Furplay or Midnight Sands (which he NEVER
buys from me, BTW) and says something like "Well, you did THIS stuff in
HERE.......", all in front of Fred's friends (who were snickering at
seeing Fred being put on the spot by this guy).

Because of this, Fred had so much of a "bad, icky feeling inside" from
doing any hentai art (imagine trying to draw while a tiny Bob stands on
your shoulder as an "anti-muse"), that he called me up after the con to
tell me that he does'nt think that he can do the story after getting
rattled so badly by his Bob encounter.

In fact, after several years since, and when the DS story was retooled
as furry for publication in GENUS, we asked if Fred would like to be
listed in the credits (since a lot of the pages for the installment in
issue #28 were from using his pencilled pages as storyboards), but he
declined, for fear that Bob would find out and start slobbering to him
about that too.

Bob ruins my "big break", ruins my chance at doing work with a VERY
popular comic artist (even people who never heard of furry know who Fred
Perry is), and ruined a chance to make some good money per page on it as
well.

Yeah, I think those are good enough reasons to wish for Bob to die twitching.

I really like writing "Desert Storms". In fact, DS was what inspired the
whole Midnight Sands zines & folios to play around with the theme and
develop new ideas. But the ONLY thing that gives me concern is the
possibility that Bob may be in a mens room stall somewhere, spanking his
monkey to it and using it as fuel to torment other artists.

Richard Chandler - WA Resident

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Jul 25, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/25/00
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Similar thing happened to me.

I was trying to start a second 'zine. Yeah, it was gonna be a bondage spooge
'zine. I was gonna call it "Leash" and everything. I had just started to get
a few people interested, when Shon Howell went and told Bob about it.
Thereafter Bob called me up on the phone WEEKLY asking me how the book was
coming. For some reason he kept asking me what Juan Alphonzo was up to as
well, which I had no idea - I'd only met the man once at that time.

After a year or two I gave up on the project. I wasn't getting enough art for
the format I wanted to do, and I turned the whole idea over to Bill Fitts, who
produced one issue.

I still haven't quite forgiven Shon for setting Bob on me that way.


--
"if Marylin Manson has more of an influence on a kid than the kid's parents
do, then maybe the parents need to look at how they're raising their kids."
-- Charlie Clouser, Keyboardist, Nine Inch Nails.
Spammer Warning: Washington State Law now provides civil penalties for UCE.


Tlalocelotl Tlatoani

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Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
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Roz Gibson

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Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
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In article <397E0EF0...@home.com>, bev...@home.com says...

>
>Jeeze, all you have to do is talk slowly and clearly, unambiguously
>instructing him to either go away or limit what he can or cannot ask,
>say, or do. I don't have a problem with him at all because I'm civil,
>polite, and to the point. He doesn't bother me with wierd-nasty requests
>because I clearly state I don't do them, and he respects that.
>
>

He cornered me at the furry party too. Luckily I had no art supplies with me
and said I wasn't doing any sketchbooks at ComiCon. He has this 'thing' about
Salem and Judge Dredd, and has been trying to get me to do a picture of them
for literally years. First he wanted me to do a picture of Judge Dredd
killing Salem, and when I said I wouldn't do that, now he wants a picture of
Judge Dredd threatening Salem. I really have 0% interest in drawing Judge
Dredd in any context, and I have less interest in doing any pictures of my
characters for him.

As to why I don't tell him to bugger off perminantly--part of it is the pity
part that Steve mentioned, and part is I generally try to be polite to people,
no matter how odious.

When I tried to get out of the Judge Dredd picture an earlier time by saying I
didnd't know how to draw Judge Dredd, he offered to get me reference.

Oh well, at least I won't have to worry about him again until FC or Anthrocon
next year.

RG


Tlalocelotl Tlatoani

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Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
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Furplay wrote:
>
> Once upon a time (1994) Fred Perry [snip]

You know, I remember seeing Fred do some furry "H" stuff with a parody
of NHS and GD back in about 95... he was even selling it AT the AP
booth. I've often wondered why I haven't seen him do that since, I guess
this would explain it.*
Thanks for the explanation, hopefully I won't have to deal up front and
personal with any "Bobs" in my future.

TT de la GWP

*Guestimating of course =^^=;;

Pelzig

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Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
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Greetings.

I've skimmed through the posts under this thread and desire to weigh in with
some thoughts, as one who has dealt with Bob ( I know his real name but will
refrain from using it ) in the past and currently.

Firstly, I read Mike Hirtes' posting and have a rather different view of the
events of the initial "greeting", if you will. I was walking about SDCC ( San
Diego Comic Con ) and wandered over to the Antarctic Press booth to chat with a
friend of mine whom is a very big Fred Perry fan ( and also produces Fred's
folios and acts as sales agent for them ). I looked down and noted Mike Hirtes'
con badge on a satchel and in looking up, there he was. It was a pleasure to
put a face to the name of someone I'd worked with in the past in terms of his
'zines and folio projects.

We got to talking and then Bob arrived on the scene and I pointed out to Mike
that that was, indeed, the man of whom much has been said about, nearly all of
it bad. At this point, he took out his video camera and got to filming him.
With Mike off doing that, I wandered off again to cruise the convention hall
and I did not see Mike again for the remainder of the con.

What happened between Bob and Mike after I left or at CCD ( CritterConDiego )
Saturday night ( I instead went to a friend's B-B-Q that evening ), I have no
knowledge of and will not say a thing about it.

About Bob himself. I agree with Steve Gallacci totally. I first met Bob via an
order through the mail for a portfolio of mine ( way back in 1994 or 1995 ) and
then I met him face-to-face at CFEast 2. I will confess that I ribbed him
behind his back and got chuckles at his expense and that I had no problems
taking his money to do art for him. In hindsight, I feel rather bad for it. The
one really sore issue was when I got a phonecall from him at 2am. With some
curt words, I put an end to it and it never happened again.

Moving ahead, at SDCC 1998, the cat got out of the bag and Daphne Lage, whom
created the nickname "Bondage Bob", told Bob about his moniker and you could
tell that he took it rather badly. Combine this with a trouncing by Tygger Graf
concerning his mannerisms, Bob became rather retracted and in fact, his manners
began to improve from what they had been. Since then, how he has dealt with
those I've talked to whom he desires art from, is much better. From time to
time, he still comes up to me and asks me ( I've done several pieces of art for
him, from his military spec art to his more hard core stuff ) if he bugs me and
if he is a nuscience to which I reply that no, he is not. I say this in good
confidence after being "accousted" at Project A-kon this year by someone who
was much more uncouth and bothersome than Bob used to be.

Also in agreement with Steve, Bob does have deep pockets and certainly will pay
the price for things he wants.

At this time, I don't have much of a problem dealing with Bob and I don't harp
on him anymore the way I used to. In a way, I feel sorry for him and wonder, at
times, will become of him when his family passes on. Oh, I should point out
that at Anthrocon this year, I had not a single problem with him in dealing
with me. He was curteous, kept his chit-chat short if he saw I was busy with
something, and generally did not prove a hassle.

I think the ribbing on him needs to come to a close. If you do not want to deal
with him...then curtly tell him so if he should ask about something or
somesuch.

Mr. Gallacci was right on in all of his points...pay them heed.

BTW, Bob was on my flight leaving San Diego, dressed in slacks and a
suit...the idea of wearing a better level of clothing for air travel lost in
this day and age.


TCASF,

Pelzig

Furplay

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Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
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Pelzig wrote:
>
>
> I think the ribbing on him needs to come to a close. If you do not want to deal
> with him...then curtly tell him so if he should ask about something or
> somesuch.

But, what do you do when he comes back a while later and asks you again?

Do you *really* want to spend your con repeatedly saying "no" to this
twink?

Do you want to worry about him LOUDLY telling you what sort of spooge he
wants out of you (do you think he even CARES if there may be any small
children within earshot? Hell no!).

I certainly won't put up with such sh*t from him, I'll tell you that.

Bob has gone beyond the mere realms of fanboyistic behavior. No matter
what you say to him, he will continue to stink horribly, talk loudly,
and generally give furrotica a bad name (Betty Roget should hire this
guy to appear at cons). He's a project-wrecking menace who deserves
neither the pity or mercy.

bevnsag

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Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
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>
> Bob has gone beyond the mere realms of fanboyistic behavior. No matter
> what you say to him, he will continue to stink horribly, talk loudly,
> and generally give furrotica a bad name (Betty Roget should hire this
> guy to appear at cons). He's a project-wrecking menace who deserves
> neither the pity or mercy.

IF he was doing this willfully, deliberately, with intent, I could see
some validity to your ire. However, this is not the case. Moreover, his
interests didn't exist in a vacuum. If furry spooge-mongers had not been
doing the stuff in question, and moreover, not actually given him what
he wanted, this would all be moot.

That he spoiled your "big break" sounds like a "yeah, maybe", but
deserves only a loud "get over it". If you are so damn good, it should
have been a mere blip on your grand ascension to greatness.

The only crimes Dennis has perpetrated on the fandom is to undercut the
plausible deniability of only some rouge artists do the kind of raunchy
art that all too many decry in public but are more than happy to dabble
in under the table - and reveal the lie that the fandom is an inclusive
and tolerant social circle.

Furplay

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Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
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bevnsag wrote:
>
>
> That he spoiled your "big break" sounds like a "yeah, maybe", but
> deserves only a loud "get over it". If you are so damn good, it should
> have been a mere blip on your grand ascension to greatness.
>

Perhaps if there was a "Bob" back in '83 that somehow had managed to
bungle things up for you in getting Albedo off the ground, you may have
an inkling.

gbres...@my-deja.com

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Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
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In article <397E0EF0...@home.com>,

bev...@home.com wrote:
> Jeeze, all you have to do is talk slowly and clearly, unambiguously
> instructing him to either go away or limit what he can or cannot ask,
> say, or do. I don't have a problem with him at all because I'm civil,
> polite, and to the point.

The particular individual in question doesn't bother with us much,
since we print a PG-13 zine that's heavier on the literature than the
art. But what I do get is every 13-year-old in an adult body that can
barely put a simple sentence together on paper whose ultimate fantasy
is to be a bad-ass killing machine who actually has a heart of gold and
will save the heroes from the impossible situation when...

Well, you get the drift.

Steve's right, though:

* Being polite
* Explaining what sort of submissions we do and don't take
* Explaining what the process of becoming a contributor involves

...always works for me. They only gibber at me for a few minutes and
then they move on.

--
--Gene
"Everybody wants to be a cat, 'cause a cat's the only cat who knows
where it's at."
--O'Malley the alley cat, The Aristocats.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Ostrich

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Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
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Furplay <fur...@novia.net> wrote:

>
> bevnsag wrote:
>>
> Perhaps if there was a "Bob" back in '83 that somehow had managed to
> bungle things up for you in getting Albedo off the ground, you may have
> an inkling.
>
iMost successful people have had any number of failures along
the way. In general, what gets one ahead in the world is persistence,
a positive attitude, and openness to possibilities, rather than a
'lucky break'. I think if Albedo had bombed, we'd have seen Galacci
make his name with some other work.
--
-Ostrich! <") http://www.furnation.com/ostrich

Furplay

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Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
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Or, perhaps not......

The point is that I have the once-in-a-lifetime chance at making
something significant (big artist, big comic, big everything), and
having to lose because of no fault of your own, but for the stupidity of
someone else who absolutely refuses to stop being so stupid.

I can accept responsibility for my own mistakes, but I won't bear
punishment because of the idiocy of others.

Perhaps if Bob took some responsibility for the project he had screwed
up for so many years, I could cut him something resembling slack. But he
does'nt even recognise his idiocy, let alone feel any remorse for all
the harm he causes. If he did, then would have SERIOUSLY reworked his
tactics on how he commissions art by now. But instead, he just continues
to stagger along, giving furrotica a bad name by his patented boorish behavior.

Many a time was when he phoned me up to ask if there would be any Fred
Perry art in the next Furplay, and I was tempted so much to reply "No,
and I have YOU to thank for that." *click*

Sorry guys & gals, but Bob screwed me over bad.........REALLY bad, and
any defense I see of him just adds insult to the injury.

Furplay

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Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
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gbres...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> In article <397E0EF0...@home.com>,
> bev...@home.com wrote:
> > Jeeze, all you have to do is talk slowly and clearly, unambiguously
> > instructing him to either go away or limit what he can or cannot ask,
> > say, or do. I don't have a problem with him at all because I'm civil,
> > polite, and to the point.
>
> The particular individual in question doesn't bother with us much,
> since we print a PG-13 zine that's heavier on the literature than the
> art. But what I do get is every 13-year-old in an adult body that can
> barely put a simple sentence together on paper whose ultimate fantasy
> is to be a bad-ass killing machine who actually has a heart of gold and
> will save the heroes from the impossible situation when...
>
> Well, you get the drift.
>
> Steve's right, though:
>
> * Being polite
> * Explaining what sort of submissions we do and don't take
> * Explaining what the process of becoming a contributor involves
>
> ...always works for me. They only gibber at me for a few minutes and
> then they move on.
>

Good luck to ya then. But IMO, he'll just keep coming back.

And you know what? I think I'm gonna try hard as I can to exorcise the
spectre of Bob from my mind here and now. I'm hoping that if my
encounter with him last weekend has had ANY effect on him, that he'll
remember to stay out of my life.

bevnsag

unread,
Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
to

Furplay wrote:
>
> bevnsag wrote:
> >
> >
> > That he spoiled your "big break" sounds like a "yeah, maybe", but
> > deserves only a loud "get over it". If you are so damn good, it should
> > have been a mere blip on your grand ascension to greatness.
> >
>

> Perhaps if there was a "Bob" back in '83 that somehow had managed to
> bungle things up for you in getting Albedo off the ground, you may have
> an inkling.
>

Yeah, right. That single incident has ruined your entire career since.
Smells too much like the loser excuse. "Anyone but me, anything but the
measure of my own effort is the reason that I'm not rich and famous"
makes it all too easy. And if you can pin all your trouble on one
dramatic point, especially in the person of some handicapped smuck who
is already a convenient pariah, then you are entirely free of
responsibility for anything ever again. Get over it. In this nickel and
dime genre, there is no rich and famous. Moreover, with the hordes of
fans desperate for product, quality and productivity is quickly
rewarded. So if you are still not "making it", it is likely your own
damn fault.

bevnsag

unread,
Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
to


> The point is that I have the once-in-a-lifetime chance at making
> something significant (big artist, big comic, big everything), and
> having to lose because of no fault of your own, but for the stupidity of
> someone else who absolutely refuses to stop being so stupid.
>

"once-in-a-lifetime" at a nickel and dime furry comic. Pu-leeze!

> I can accept responsibility for my own mistakes, but I won't bear
> punishment because of the idiocy of others.
>
> Perhaps if Bob took some responsibility for the project he had screwed
> up for so many years, I could cut him something resembling slack. But he
> does'nt even recognise his idiocy, let alone feel any remorse for all
> the harm he causes. If he did, then would have SERIOUSLY reworked his
> tactics on how he commissions art by now. But instead, he just continues
> to stagger along, giving furrotica a bad name by his patented boorish behavior.

HE IS RETARDED. He doesn't know, and is likely incapable of entirely
understanding the full extent of whatever damage he may or may not have
done. Moreover, "furrotica" is its own worst enemy. Just by existing, it
might as well be the worst of the worst, because that's how it will be
associated from the outside, and sure as hell someone is going to find a
demand for that worst and fill it from within. And Dennis's interests
and ultimate intent isn't any different than the rest of the
spoogemonkey market.

>
> Many a time was when he phoned me up to ask if there would be any Fred
> Perry art in the next Furplay, and I was tempted so much to reply "No,
> and I have YOU to thank for that." *click*

And that is just too damn bad.

>
> Sorry guys & gals, but Bob screwed me over bad.........REALLY bad, and
> any defense I see of him just adds insult to the injury.

Right, his parents started a diabolical plot decades ago to spawn a
weapon of terrible destruction aimed solely at you.
Jeez! What kind of whinny loser, can't get over it, clown are you??

Furplay

unread,
Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
to

bevnsag wrote:
>
> >
> > Perhaps if there was a "Bob" back in '83 that somehow had managed to
> > bungle things up for you in getting Albedo off the ground, you may have
> > an inkling.
> >
> Yeah, right. That single incident has ruined your entire career since.

It certainly put it into a coma for a while. You can't deny that.

> Smells too much like the loser excuse. "Anyone but me, anything but the
> measure of my own effort is the reason that I'm not rich and famous"
> makes it all too easy.

Oh, i wish it was because of some phuckup I had made. That would make
the burden a little more easier. If I knew it was because of my own damn
fault, I would have only myself to blame.

But the point is, that it WAS'NT from something I did wrong, but the
what someone ELSE did wrong. has he ever taken any shit for that? No.

> And if you can pin all your trouble on one
> dramatic point,

No, I'm pinning one trouble on one point. I take it on a case-by-case
basis, and in this case, it's Bob.

> especially in the person of some handicapped smuck who
> is already a convenient pariah,

I've seen people with mental retardation. Bob's behaviour can't be
conveniently excused as being part of his handicap. He's just plain boorish.

> then you are entirely free of
> responsibility for anything ever again. Get over it. In this nickel and
> dime genre, there is no rich and famous.

I'm sure Mssrs. Eastman, McFarlane, (Kevin) Smith, and Pini would like
to learn that.

> Moreover, with the hordes of
> fans desperate for product, quality and productivity is quickly
> rewarded. So if you are still not "making it", it is likely your own
> damn fault.

If Fred & I were still working on the project, that quality and
productivity would be assured.

>
> > The point is that I have the once-in-a-lifetime chance at making
> > something significant (big artist, big comic, big everything), and
> > having to lose because of no fault of your own, but for the stupidity of
> > someone else who absolutely refuses to stop being so stupid.
> >
> "once-in-a-lifetime" at a nickel and dime furry comic. Pu-leeze!
>

You take what you can get. To me, it *does* mean something. I wanted to
*contribute* something into the genre for a change. I wanted to take an
active part in it instead of being just a bystander who takes out but
does'nt put something in. Everything was begining to click together, and
then Bob shows up to wreck the whole thing. Took me six years to get my
proverbial shit back together and make another try at it.

It's not whining. It's being pissed off, and after what happened, I
think I have a right to do that.

YOU did'nt have it happen to you, so you have no right to right to lay
comment, let alone pass judgement.



> > I can accept responsibility for my own mistakes, but I won't bear
> > punishment because of the idiocy of others.
> >
> > Perhaps if Bob took some responsibility for the project he had screwed
> > up for so many years, I could cut him something resembling slack. But he
> > does'nt even recognise his idiocy, let alone feel any remorse for all
> > the harm he causes. If he did, then would have SERIOUSLY reworked his
> > tactics on how he commissions art by now. But instead, he just continues
> > to stagger along, giving furrotica a bad name by his patented boorish behavior.
>
> HE IS RETARDED. He doesn't know, and is likely incapable of entirely
> understanding the full extent of whatever damage he may or may not have
> done. Moreover, "furrotica" is its own worst enemy. Just by existing, it
> might as well be the worst of the worst, because that's how it will be
> associated from the outside, and sure as hell someone is going to find a
> demand for that worst and fill it from within. And Dennis's interests
> and ultimate intent isn't any different than the rest of the
> spoogemonkey market.

Exept the spoogemonkeys are a tad more discreet. Hell, I'd wager even
Kevin Duane has a few more tact points than Dennis.

And note my comments about retardation not being an excuse. It's one
thing to be "slow". It's something entirely different to be unwilling to
learn anything at all.

> >
> > Many a time was when he phoned me up to ask if there would be any Fred
> > Perry art in the next Furplay, and I was tempted so much to reply "No,
> > and I have YOU to thank for that." *click*
>
> And that is just too damn bad.

You know, perhaps if you had'nt had a running book for nearly 20 years,
perhaps you might know how it feels to not have a book running at all.

> >
> > Sorry guys & gals, but Bob screwed me over bad.........REALLY bad, and
> > any defense I see of him just adds insult to the injury.
>
> Right, his parents started a diabolical plot decades ago to spawn a
> weapon of terrible destruction aimed solely at you.

Not directly at me, but the fandom has certainly been the worse off
since the night "Bob Sr." was too lazy to buy a condom.

In fact, I'd bet if Daddy would at least cut back on his boy's
allowance, maybe then Bob might not be able to have this bottomless
wallet he seems to have and afford to go to so many cons.

And YOUR way of dealing with it to sit there and bite your lip and let
him continue on the way he does. Do YOU want this crap from him to go on
for the next several DECADES? I sure as Hell don't.

> Jeez! What kind of whinny loser, can't get over it, clown are you??

Apparently, something different than the clown who's does'nt have to
worry about having his career being monkeywrenched by the interference
of others because he's already been established, I guess.

This has been a pretty enlightening (albeit tragic) thread indeed. It
seems that a lot of people seem to actually ENJOY having Bob act the way
he does (so long as the money lasts, natch). Exept for a few, most seem
to sit on their hands and act like thay have no choice but to put up
with it.

But, anyone who dares to speak up against him and his antics gets
painted as the intolerant one. If you have an actual case history where
he has actually burned you over and cost you in some way, then you're
just being a whiner.

Very interesting........

FromTheDes...@stukafox.com

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Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
to
bevnsag <bev...@home.com> wrote:

> Moreover, "furrotica" is its own worst enemy.


However, you also produce 'furrotica'. How do you feel about
your own contribution to this 'worst of the worst'. Obviously,
your products are nowhere NEAR the garbagecan-juice level that
some folks have hit, but an argument can be equally made the
furrotica is an absolute, and not a question of degrees.


StukaFox

bevnsag

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Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
to

I'm not all that worried about my minor contribution. But to clarify, by
having furry porn out in the market, we are collectively asking for the
worst of the worst to crop up, as too many simply want what they want
and have no notion of context or restraint. So, in the context of the
Dennis business, since he knows that raunch is being done, he wants some
too, but simply doesn't know how to be subtle about it, blowing the lid
off that unspoken end of the matter and asking the wrong people at times.

Graf

unread,
Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
to
I really didn't want to weigh into this, but after reading all of
the threads on Dennis, I had give my own pov on the matter.

I've been "bobbed" as well. At CF East 1 he heavily damaged my
display book for my prints by curling the pages and holding them
tightly as he flipped thru looking for bondage and other more
blatant images. I asked him to not hold the pages that way. He
let them go and moved on. Those display images were ruined.
BUT, he _remembered_ the next time he came over to look and
didn't repeat the mistake.

At Comic Con as Pelzig and I shared a table, I was watching how
he treated Pelzig and his manners. That just set my "parent"
alarms off, so I verbally smacked his hands. Pelzig had just put
down a sketchbook he was working in, Dennis reached over to pick
it up, I told him in what Pelzig has come to call the "Mom tone"
to not pick it up, that it was rude to do so, and that his
manners have been atrocious and I wasn't about to put up with it.
Dennis reacted like a small child who'd just been spanked, mulled
it over, and apologized. Ever since then, he's always been
polite to me and to Pelzig, and has been trying to behave.

I know that I've been defending him since then. That's because
he's shown that he honestly does want to change his behaviour. I
offer this as proof: During this year's Comic Con, he utterly
surprised the hell out of me and Captain when he first arrived at
the table and said "I really like Miss Tygger. She's honest and
lets me know when I've made a mistake, not like those other stuck
up artists who make fun of me behind my back and don't tell me
anything. All anyone has to do is tell me they don't want to do
what I ask them. I won't mind. I understand that not everybody
likes what I like. I wish the other artists would tell me too."

I was utterly taken aback by that, just caught off guard. I will
admit to having the first impression in mind as to how he is, but
with this statement he gave me a different view.

He can learn. He can change habits and behaviours. And all
it'll take is for the ones who don't like doing what he asks for
to tell him so firmly. He knows that the artists are talking
about him behind his back, that some are drawing pics about him.
Dennis described to me the ones he's seen. He may be slow but he
_can_ learn and _has_.

Furplay, I can understand how it is to have a project be ended or
killed off or destroyed by someone else's stupidity. The same
exact thing happened to me with Limelight Publishing and Guardian
Knights. Their actions and lack thereof plus other problems
forced me to cancel and it was no fault of my own. I fully
understand how it is to want to obsess on what was done to you,
and it is your right as the injured party. But...there does have
to come a time when you must work thru that and carry on. I know
that I still grouse about what Limelight did, but I'm still
slowly moving on, picking up the pieces and trying to keep things
going. It's hard, I know.

You don't have to forgive, I rather doubt that I'll forgive
Limelight anytime soon, but you do have to move on otherwise
it'll just destroy what you have left.


--TLG

bevnsag

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Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
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> And YOUR way of dealing with it to sit there and bite your lip and let
> him continue on the way he does. Do YOU want this crap from him to go on
> for the next several DECADES? I sure as Hell don't.
>

No. I politely tell him what I will or will not do. And though he has
sometimes wanted to chat my ear off over some silly fannish story line
(not like I don't get that anyway from other "normal" fans) he does not
bug me about doing things I've made clear I will not do.

> > Jeez! What kind of whinny loser, can't get over it, clown are you??
>
> Apparently, something different than the clown who's does'nt have to
> worry about having his career being monkeywrenched by the interference
> of others because he's already been established, I guess.

Absolute bullshit! I succeed because I continue to do things people
want, not simply because my name is on it. "Being established" is such a
chicken shit cop-out come back.

>
> This has been a pretty enlightening (albeit tragic) thread indeed. It
> seems that a lot of people seem to actually ENJOY having Bob act the way
> he does (so long as the money lasts, natch). Exept for a few, most seem
> to sit on their hands and act like thay have no choice but to put up
> with it.

No, we don't particularly enjoy Dennis. But yes, we have no special
right to do anything but, in effect "sit on our hands". Especially since
he is not a particularly obnoxious aspect of the fandom, compared to the
real porn-mongers and outrageous conduct clowns who really give the
genre a black eye. What do you want? Fan police? Purity tests? Arbitrary
detention and ejection from the con? With Furplay as tin god Furher?


>
> But, anyone who dares to speak up against him and his antics gets
> painted as the intolerant one. If you have an actual case history where
> he has actually burned you over and cost you in some way, then you're
> just being a whiner.

BS again. This is more a matter of some wannabe but loser type that
doesn't seem to be able to make the grade, using a single incident and
defenseless slub to rationalize his own mediocrity. You're just a
crybaby, pure and simple. Get over it, and get over yourself,
ferchrisakes. "I coulda been a contenda" combined with such a weak "if
only" is so damn pathetic.

Furplay

unread,
Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
to

Graf wrote:
>
>
> Furplay, I can understand how it is to have a project be ended or
> killed off or destroyed by someone else's stupidity. The same
> exact thing happened to me with Limelight Publishing and Guardian
> Knights. Their actions and lack thereof plus other problems
> forced me to cancel and it was no fault of my own. I fully
> understand how it is to want to obsess on what was done to you,
> and it is your right as the injured party. But...there does have
> to come a time when you must work thru that and carry on. I know
> that I still grouse about what Limelight did, but I'm still
> slowly moving on, picking up the pieces and trying to keep things
> going. It's hard, I know.
>
> You don't have to forgive, I rather doubt that I'll forgive
> Limelight anytime soon, but you do have to move on otherwise
> it'll just destroy what you have left.
>
> --TLG


Now, THIS I can mentally absorb and take into serious consideration. I'm
trying to get past that disaster by throwing myself into the current DS
incarnation with Dean (heck, I even retired my zine publishing thing in
order to devote more time on writing for it, and hopefully a revamped
website someday). Maybe some day I'll be able to one day even utter
"Fred who...?".

Bear in mind though, that you and a few others have had the luxury of
building enough of a callus over time towards his antics. This was my
first personal encounter with him. I had heard all the horror stories
other people have had in their first run-ins with him (as I said, it was
even enough to make Fred stop doing hentai for a while, and that's GOT
to be something frightening if it rattled his cage so much). This made
my senses go on high gain, and expect to encounter the worst. With my
"Murphy's law" life, that tends to be what happens.

So when Bob started pawing through the Den pieces I had left at an
artist's table (ref pieces for costuming & design), my brain immediately
went into RED ALERT and tried to avert him from one day doing to some
poor Japanese friend what he once did with Fred because he got his hands
on my stuff. I really like Den, and I wanted to protect him from being
"found out" by Dennis, because we all know what that will lead up to at
a future CF.

Anyway, I do appreciate your advice. Knowing that you too have had once
been burned on a project you seriously poured yourself into puts you in
a persective that some people here have'nt bothered to consider.

It's given me a chance to chill out long enough to try putting the whole
mess behind me, provided Bob retains enough memory to know to keep a
significant distance from me and not reopen the wound again. We'll see.

Furplay

unread,
Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
to

bevnsag wrote:
>
>
> What do you want? Fan police? Purity tests? Arbitrary
> detention and ejection from the con? With Furplay as tin god Furher?
>

I think we can both agree that I would make for a very crappy Furher (no
pun intended).

> > But, anyone who dares to speak up against him and his antics gets
> > painted as the intolerant one. If you have an actual case history where
> > he has actually burned you over and cost you in some way, then you're
> > just being a whiner.
>

> BS again. This is more a matter of some wannabe but loser

"wannabe but loser", eh? Oh, okay. Whatever.............

> type that
> doesn't seem to be able to make the grade, using a single incident and
> defenseless slub to rationalize his own mediocrity. You're just a
> crybaby, pure and simple. Get over it, and get over yourself,
> ferchrisakes. "I coulda been a contenda" combined with such a weak "if
> only" is so damn pathetic.

Good thing I already read Tygger's post before I started replying here,
or else I would have been highly tempted to verbally rip you a 2nd one
in this line.

Graf

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Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
to

Furplay wrote in message <397F76F2...@novia.net>...

>Now, THIS I can mentally absorb and take into serious
>consideration. I'm trying to get past that disaster by throwing
>myself into the current DS incarnation with Dean (heck, I even
>retired my zine publishing thing in order to devote more time on
>writing for it, and hopefully a revamped website someday). Maybe
>some day I'll be able to one day even utter "Fred who...?".

Understandable, and thank you for hearing what I had to say. I
hoped that you'd understand. I thought that you were being
published but as I don't keep track of what's being done in fur
fandom anymore, I wasn't sure. Congrats on that.

>Bear in mind though, that you and a few others have had the
luxury >of building enough of a callus over time towards his
antics. This >was my first personal encounter with him. I had
heard all the horror >stories other people have had in their
first run-ins with him (as I >said, it was even enough to make
Fred stop doing hentai for a >while, and that's GOT to be
something frightening if it rattled his >cage so much). This made
my senses go on high gain, and expect >to encounter the worst.
With my "Murphy's law" life, that tends to >be what happens.

That explains the vehemence, which I understand now. First
encounters are always the longest lasting impressions. I've more
than a few who remember how I was years ago and won't see how I
am now. First impressions are the ones which make or break.

I first heard of Dennis from Daphne Lage, then Pelzig. I didn't
like what I heard then and it took a bit of time to finally fit a
face to the nickname of Bondage Bob. I did have an idea of what
to expect when I did encounter him, so you're correct in a
"callus" of sorts. More like my guard was up and I had an idea
of what to expect.

>So when Bob started pawing through the Den pieces I had left at
an
>artist's table (ref pieces for costuming & design), my brain
>immediately went into RED ALERT and tried to avert him from one
>day doing to some poor Japanese friend what he once did with
Fred >because he got his hands on my stuff. I really like Den,
and I >wanted to protect him from being "found out" by Dennis,
because >we all know what that will lead up to at a future CF.

That's what I got on him about before. It must be association
because he doesn't do that with me or Pelzig. Think of it this
way: he knows we don't like it. He doesn't know that others
don't. And he won't know unless told. But I do understand your
position.

>Anyway, I do appreciate your advice. Knowing that you too have
>had once been burned on a project you seriously poured yourself
>into puts you in a persective that some people here have'nt
>bothered to consider.

You're welcome. That is why I did speak up. I've been there. I
understand how something like that can just eat into you.

Guardian Knights' cancellation was a hard decision to make. I
knew that I was keeping my end of the contract, it was Limelight
that wasn't keeping theirs. I also had creator differences with
Dean and he changed what I had planned into what he wanted to
see. I had worked my way into the upper echelon of the company
just to make sure things were done when they had to be. The
cancellation was actually back in January during Further
Confusion. It took Limelight until June to make the announcement
to the proper places and to refund subscribers their money. Five
months, and it took Dean and I getting rather angry and giving an
ultimatum to get action. I'm only just now working out of the
deep depression I've been in since January.

I understand how hard it is to regroup and go forward. In
1990-91, I was working with Quinton Hoover with Twilight Agency.
Wizards of the Coast found him and I lost my artist. 1992 the
project was regrouped into Guardian Knights and appeared in
Furrlough, and I had secured a contract with Rip Off Press, but
that fell thru. I was going to put it into Gallery when out of
the blue I'm steered to Limelight in 1996. Three years, five
issues later, the project is again killed. Now I'm trying to
regroup yet again. Ten years is a long time trying to get
something to fly and it's not always easy to put the pieces back
together, especially when they don't fit anymore.

I'm not saying all this to make you or anyone feel sorry for me.
I'm saying this to show that I do understand, especially in the
length of time hanging on to what happened.

>It's given me a chance to chill out long enough to try putting
the >whole mess behind me, provided Bob retains enough memory to
>know to keep a significant distance from me and not reopen the
>wound again. We'll see.

Good to hear. And I hope he does.


--TLG

Furplay

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Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
to
Always can count on you to drop an outboard motor into the pot and churn
things up, huh Shon?

Furplay

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Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
to

Shon Howell wrote:
>
> Just for that, I gonna give Dennis a full set of
> GALLERY's...

I'm sure Rich will cry all the way to the bank over that.

Richard Chandler - WA Resident

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Jul 26, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/26/00
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In article <20000726211322...@ng-fo1.aol.com>,
cathe...@aol.comstithluv (Shon Howell) writes:
> mau...@kendra.com (Richard Chandler - WA Resident)Wrote:
> >Yeah, it was gonna be a bondage spooge 'zine. I was gonna call it
> >"Leash" and everything.
>
> Ah, a break away project for you...

Back in '92, I think it was. Yes.

> >I had just started to get a few people interested, when Shon Howell
> >went and told Bob about it.
>

> I guess I missed the meno branding this info "TOP SECRET"

You know, I do believe my solicitation letter DID say to keep it quiet.

> >Thereafter Bob called me up on the phone WEEKLY asking me how the
> >book was coming.
>

> God, don't you just HATE these obsessive bondage freaks?!

Nah, only the rude ones.

> >For some reason he kept asking me what Juan Alphonzo was up to as
> >well, which I had no idea - I'd only met the man once at that time.
>

> Yeah, what does he think, you keep tabs on EVERY porn head in the
> fandom? ....well, you do of course, but still!

Not really. I'm more interested in good artists.

> >After a year or two I gave up on the project.
>

> Demonstrating what a spectacular weinie you are...

Something about having to move across the country and other disruptions can do
that to a project.

> >I wasn't getting enough art for the format I wanted to do, ...
>
> Now, how could that be?

Because there wasn't enough interest to do a large format 'zine, and I wasn't
pushing it too hard, and I was only asking artists whom I knew already liked
to do the stuff, rather then trying to get folks who didn't like it to do that
sort of thing. I was trying to be on the polite side, not the obsessive one.

> >...and I turned the whole idea over to Bill Fitts, who produced one
> >issue.
>
> WHAT?! Rusty got an issue together dispite the ever present danger
> that Dennis might buy one?! WOW! Whatta man!

Once he dropped the page count down and made it digest sized....

> >I still haven't quite forgiven Shon for setting Bob on me that way.
>

> And yet, I still get a 40 min. round of mouth to butt ressitation from
> you every Con we're together at.

Only because you go around begging for it so hard. "Look, look! I came up
with a new style! I made the eyes bigger and monkeyed with the proportions.
Looks kinda like Brian Burke now." I mean, I get a chuckle when I see the
back of your 'zines where you say "Gee, why hasn't everyone sent in their two
plates from my Chroma-zone portfolio to be colored yet?" When the answer is,
they were all sitting in Ed Zolna's basement because nobody wanted to buy them
at your price. Hell, Bronzebear sells them for a buck at cons now just to get
rid of 'em, and he still have to take most of them home.

> Just for that, I gonna give Dennis a full set of GALLERY's...

He already has one. He's been a subscriber for a very long time.

Shon Howell

unread,
Jul 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/27/00
to
>But, what do you do when he comes back a while later and asks you again?
>
>Do you *really* want to spend your con repeatedly saying "no" to this
>twink?
>

Hmmm... A goofy fanboy with narrowly focus tastes bugging me for a type of art
I don't feel like drawing? Gosh Mike, I can't IMAGINE what that would be
like...

Shon Howell
"When confronted, the comic artist will puff his resume to 3 times it's actual
size in order to seem more imposing..."

e-mail me @ cathe...@hotmail.com


Shon Howell

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Jul 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/27/00
to
mau...@kendra.com (Richard Chandler - WA Resident)Wrote:

>Similar thing happened to me.
>
>I was trying to start a second 'zine.

Go on...

>Yeah, it was gonna be a bondage spooge 'zine. I was gonna call it "Leash" and
everything.

Ah, a break away project for you...

>I had just started to get a few people interested,

>when Shon Howell went and told Bob about it.

I guess I missed the meno branding this info "TOP SECRET"

>Thereafter Bob called me up on the phone WEEKLY asking me how the book was
>coming.

God, don't you just HATE these obsessive bondage freaks?!

>For some reason he kept asking me what Juan Alphonzo was up to as

>well, which I had no idea - I'd only met the man once at that time.

Yeah, what does he think, you keep tabs on EVERY porn head in the fandom?
...well, you do of course, but still!

>After a year or two I gave up on the project.

Demonstrating what a spectacular weinie you are...

>I wasn't getting enough art for the format I wanted to do, ...

Now, how could that be?

>...and I turned the whole idea over to Bill Fitts, who produced one issue.

WHAT?! Rusty got an issue together dispite the ever present danger that
Dennis might buy one?! WOW! Whatta man!

>I still haven't quite forgiven Shon for setting Bob on me that way.

And yet, I still get a 40 min. round of mouth to butt ressitation from you
every

Con we're together at. Just for that, I gonna give Dennis a full set of
GALLERY's...


kill

unread,
Jul 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/27/00
to
Hidy-ho. I lurk here, as I "quit" furry about two years ago. I heard about
this little thread from a friend who said I should look at it. So I did. I
gotta say, if you want to draw "spoogy" art, more power to ya. I liked
spooge. I understand why people wouldn't like to draw it, and when I used to
collect, I respected that. Being Canadian (=^o^=) I was always polite,
framing my requests along the lines of, "I love your art and if you wouldn't
mind drawing something a little naughty..." and I was calm and collected. I
was refused sometimes, and nearly always with a nice "sorry, I don't feel
comfortable drawing that..." or the like. Which is cool. I understand. No
problem. However, a few artists who shall remain nameless decided that my
polite request wasn't good enough. I was insulted and threatened on a few
rare occasions. I was told that my sick requests weren't welcome. (And all I
wanted was a sexy looking tiger morph! Not even spoogy!)
I guess all I wanted to say was that after reading the posts, Bob stepped
over the line, but artists should remember that even requests you WON'T do
deserve a little respect. I stopped collecting a certain little lady-fur's
art over that...(she knows who she is...)
Kill

--


============================================================================
======
When they came for the Communists, I said nothing as I was not a Communist.
Then, when they came for the trade unionists, again I said nothing for I was
not a trade unionist.
Then, when they come for the Jews, I said nothing for I was not a Jew.
Finally, when they came for me, there was no one left to say anything.
============================================================================
======
"Furplay" <fur...@novia.net> wrote in message
news:397F76F2...@novia.net...


>
>
> Graf wrote:
> >
> >
> > Furplay, I can understand how it is to have a project be ended or
> > killed off or destroyed by someone else's stupidity. The same
> > exact thing happened to me with Limelight Publishing and Guardian
> > Knights. Their actions and lack thereof plus other problems
> > forced me to cancel and it was no fault of my own. I fully
> > understand how it is to want to obsess on what was done to you,
> > and it is your right as the injured party. But...there does have
> > to come a time when you must work thru that and carry on. I know
> > that I still grouse about what Limelight did, but I'm still
> > slowly moving on, picking up the pieces and trying to keep things
> > going. It's hard, I know.
> >
> > You don't have to forgive, I rather doubt that I'll forgive
> > Limelight anytime soon, but you do have to move on otherwise
> > it'll just destroy what you have left.
> >
> > --TLG
>
>

> Now, THIS I can mentally absorb and take into serious consideration. I'm
> trying to get past that disaster by throwing myself into the current DS
> incarnation with Dean (heck, I even retired my zine publishing thing in
> order to devote more time on writing for it, and hopefully a revamped
> website someday). Maybe some day I'll be able to one day even utter
> "Fred who...?".
>

> Bear in mind though, that you and a few others have had the luxury of
> building enough of a callus over time towards his antics. This was my
> first personal encounter with him. I had heard all the horror stories
> other people have had in their first run-ins with him (as I said, it was
> even enough to make Fred stop doing hentai for a while, and that's GOT
> to be something frightening if it rattled his cage so much). This made
> my senses go on high gain, and expect to encounter the worst. With my
> "Murphy's law" life, that tends to be what happens.
>

> So when Bob started pawing through the Den pieces I had left at an
> artist's table (ref pieces for costuming & design), my brain immediately
> went into RED ALERT and tried to avert him from one day doing to some
> poor Japanese friend what he once did with Fred because he got his hands
> on my stuff. I really like Den, and I wanted to protect him from being
> "found out" by Dennis, because we all know what that will lead up to at
> a future CF.
>

> Anyway, I do appreciate your advice. Knowing that you too have had once
> been burned on a project you seriously poured yourself into puts you in
> a persective that some people here have'nt bothered to consider.
>

> It's given me a chance to chill out long enough to try putting the whole
> mess behind me, provided Bob retains enough memory to know to keep a
> significant distance from me and not reopen the wound again. We'll see.
>

Brian O'connell

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Jul 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/27/00
to
"bevnsag" <bev...@home.com> wrote in message
news:397F6F6E...@home.com...

Hence the reason behind my idea to start the Titanium Crowbar Awards
(lets just call them "Titties" for brevity's sake)... The biggest problem
I've had with the whole erotica=furotica=spooge debate is that is
delinieates no true definitions... What is good, what is bad, what is the
worst? This has no answer, because nobody can truly agree on what the
definition for each is, despite the fact that the evidence stares us in the
face every time we open the 'New' artist's submissions page from Velar... As
a result, good, bad, or terrible art all gets lumped together under one
debasing term: Spooge... Myself, Mike Higgs, Doug Winger, Sean Cullen, ALL
get lumped together irregardless of the quality of our work under that
label...

This in turn, is part of the fatal flaw behind furry fandom... There is
no defining terms of what is acceptable and what is not, what is good and
what is not... The masses will not determine their ideal of best, without
launching into personal bias and rhetoric, and any semblance of a definitive
statement gets lost in background noise... This is, additionally, why furry
fandom will NOT gain any further ground than a small, internally squabbling
fringe group... For an example; take the work of Masume Shiro (Ghost in the
Shell, Black Magic M66, Appleseed)... Anime fans either do (most likely) or
do not like his work... They appreciate his work on it's quality, not it's
content... For the US fans, who limit their perceptions to the prelisted
titles, there's little problems with the fact that this particular artist
has done spooge (read: hentai) art in his career... A lot of work in his
career, including stories and illustrated short novels, have included this
particular material... The anime fans' response is either to drool over it,
or ignore it... There's no flame wars about it, or discussions of how best
to segregate Shirow or his works from anime cons, in the event he attends...
They may cover the naughty bits of his more adult illustrations on the sales
floor, which is in no way an outrageous request... But the main factor here
is: They are judging the artist in question ON the merits of his work, not
the particular subject matter...

Furries, on the other hand, do their best to detract from it...
Regardless of the reasons, there's both blazing perverts and ice cold prudes
on both sides of the issue, and all they are doing is trapping the furry
artists in the crossfire of their rhetoric... Whereas the one thing that
makes furry fandom shine to the outside world, is the quality of the
creative forces therein, the first thing that a great deal of furries on
both sides of the issue, is condemn those very same creative forces for
whatever reasons... IE: "He draws spooge to supplement his income, he's a
sellout!!!", or "He draws nothing but clean art, but no erotica, he's a
prudish nazi!!!" (Godwins' law exception, this is for the purpose of hearsay
example, not for the purpose of flames)...

The idea behind the award, in the meanwhile, is to raise the bar for the
erotic furry artists, since the one thing that truly detracts from the
scene, is the unapologetically horrid artists that enter the field
unprepared or untrained, let alone untalented... This in turn detracts from
furry fandom, an erotic piece of a nude catgirl by a decent artist, usually
attracts fans of good erotic art, with some bearing on tact and taste, as
opposed to a crude crayon scrawling on lined notebook paper appeals to the
outsiders who automatically think "What a bunch of freaks!
SKUNKFUCKERRRRRR!!!!", or folks who call themselves furry, with no tact, and
no taste, the ones who ruin EVERYONE'S fun...

This in turn affects the furry art scene greatly... What purpose is
there to raising your skills to others' standards, when the standards in
place are already so low? This is why there needs to be a definition of
standards... And why there has to be an incentive towards improving the
quality of works... Money is all very well and good, but far from an
incentive towards improvement... Take the case with the flames that artists
here and the miscellaneous furry art groups get into... How many here have
seen an artist recieve a response along the lines of "Your work would be
much better if you did A, B, and C", as opposed to "Your stuff sucks! I wish
you'd A, die B, die and C, die!"... Therein lies the other reason.... If an
artist is given a clear direction to take their work, instead of the
constant lines of cultural fickleness that they're subjected to, or blatant
brownnosing and hassling, then there could be some levels of improvement in
their works... The "They can always go to art school" excuse doesn't work
either, some don't have the budget, or the time to pursue such... And
schools lead you very much into the same trap, because honestly, you go to
school to learn, you do not go to school for praise or recognition...

That is the purpose to it... You improve the environment, you improve
the standards... At the moment, people are attempting to change the
standards whilst ignoring the environment, which at best can result in total
entropy and or anarchy... If you improve the environment, eventually true
art fans will begin to infiltrate the scene, and eventually, the better
artists as well...

James Hardiman

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Jul 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/27/00
to

Roz Gibson wrote:

> In article <397E0EF0...@home.com>, bev...@home.com says...


> >
> >Jeeze, all you have to do is talk slowly and clearly, unambiguously
> >instructing him to either go away or limit what he can or cannot ask,
> >say, or do. I don't have a problem with him at all because I'm civil,

> >polite, and to the point. He doesn't bother me with wierd-nasty requests
> >because I clearly state I don't do them, and he respects that.
> >
> >
>
> He cornered me at the furry party too. Luckily I had no art supplies with me
> and said I wasn't doing any sketchbooks at ComiCon. He has this 'thing' about
> Salem and Judge Dredd, and has been trying to get me to do a picture of them
> for literally years. First he wanted me to do a picture of Judge Dredd
> killing Salem, and when I said I wouldn't do that, now he wants a picture of
> Judge Dredd threatening Salem. I really have 0% interest in drawing Judge
> Dredd in any context, and I have less interest in doing any pictures of my
> characters for him.
>
> As to why I don't tell him to bugger off perminantly--part of it is the pity
> part that Steve mentioned, and part is I generally try to be polite to people,
> no matter how odious.
>
> When I tried to get out of the Judge Dredd picture an earlier time by saying I
> didnd't know how to draw Judge Dredd, he offered to get me reference.
>
> Oh well, at least I won't have to worry about him again until FC or Anthrocon
> next year.
>
> RG


Yeah, I first encountered him back at either CFE '95 or '96 (I can't recall.
Memory's all shot to hell). It must've been CFE '96, because issue 1 of Caterwaul
Incorporated had already come out, and I was in the process of completing issue 2.

For those of you unfamiliar with those two issues, book one ended at a critical
point where one of the main characters (a female raccoon) was threatened by a dude
that she and her teammates were trying to track down and capture. During the
course of events, she had gone somewhat undercover in order to learn where this
guy's hideout was, and the situations presented there.
Anyway, to make a long story short, Marie (the raccoon) was in a bind, and was
hoping like hell that her teammates would get on the stick and whip this dude's
ass. The main bad guy (Castriani) had a sort of harem at his estate, and none of
the girls wanted to be there. Since the choices were "obey" or "die", they
(mostly) chose the first one.
Bob had come up to my table and asked me, in all seriousness, if I'd do the
story this way:
Castriani was already pretty rich because he relied on a drug trade for his
income. Bob said I should make this character so rich that he actually owned a
PLANET. A planet. Christ, I can barely make my rent payments on a house. Wanna
guess how much an entire planet will set you back?
Okay, so let's say this dude now owns an entire planet. But wait! The fun's
just starting! Ol' Castriani also has hordes of females on this planet, and
they're all property of his. They wear collars and leashes and have their legs
and wrists shackled, and can only speak if he gives them permission. And yet,
despite these wondrous living conditions, they all love Castriani. At this point
in the story, I was fighting to keep from laughing, as I first thought this was
all a gag.
To make matters even worse, he wanted Marie, who is a member of a bounty hunter
group that wastes people like Castriani, to fall in love with Castriani and go to
his planet with him. Oh yeah. That'll work out. He also wanted either Dinah or
Veronika to fall in love with him, too. Even though I explained to him that Dinah
had the hots for Veronika, and Veronika had the hots for no one, he still didn't
seem to understand. After flapping his gums for awhile, he eventually wandered
off, and I was left pondering what the fuck had just happened.
Granted, I draw a lot of hardcore stuff, but I _don't _ do any
submission/domination stuff. Even that "Strapped In" bondage folio I did a few
years back was quite tame. All the characters were enjoying themselves, there was
no humiliation or pain involved, etcetera. I found it rather disturbing that this
fellow would find such a scenario entertaining or arousing. I dunno about
everyone else, but I personally think sex is better when _both_ partners are
enjoying it, know what I mean?
Anyway, there's my little rant of the week. Time for the ol' sanity medicine!

--JMH


James Hardiman

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Jul 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/27/00
to

Pelzig wrote:

> Greetings.
>
> I've skimmed through the posts under this thread and desire to weigh in with
> some thoughts, as one who has dealt with Bob ( I know his real name but will
> refrain from using it ) in the past and currently.
>
> Firstly, I read Mike Hirtes' posting and have a rather different view of the
> events of the initial "greeting", if you will. I was walking about SDCC ( San
> Diego Comic Con ) and wandered over to the Antarctic Press booth to chat with a
> friend of mine whom is a very big Fred Perry fan ( and also produces Fred's
> folios and acts as sales agent for them ). I looked down and noted Mike Hirtes'
> con badge on a satchel and in looking up, there he was. It was a pleasure to
> put a face to the name of someone I'd worked with in the past in terms of his
> 'zines and folio projects.
>
> We got to talking and then Bob arrived on the scene and I pointed out to Mike
> that that was, indeed, the man of whom much has been said about, nearly all of
> it bad. At this point, he took out his video camera and got to filming him.
> With Mike off doing that, I wandered off again to cruise the convention hall
> and I did not see Mike again for the remainder of the con.
>
> What happened between Bob and Mike after I left or at CCD ( CritterConDiego )
> Saturday night ( I instead went to a friend's B-B-Q that evening ), I have no
> knowledge of and will not say a thing about it.
>
> About Bob himself. I agree with Steve Gallacci totally. I first met Bob via an
> order through the mail for a portfolio of mine ( way back in 1994 or 1995 ) and
> then I met him face-to-face at CFEast 2. I will confess that I ribbed him
> behind his back and got chuckles at his expense and that I had no problems
> taking his money to do art for him. In hindsight, I feel rather bad for it. The
> one really sore issue was when I got a phonecall from him at 2am. With some
> curt words, I put an end to it and it never happened again.
>
> Moving ahead, at SDCC 1998, the cat got out of the bag and Daphne Lage, whom
> created the nickname "Bondage Bob", told Bob about his moniker and you could
> tell that he took it rather badly. Combine this with a trouncing by Tygger Graf
> concerning his mannerisms, Bob became rather retracted and in fact, his manners
> began to improve from what they had been. Since then, how he has dealt with
> those I've talked to whom he desires art from, is much better. From time to
> time, he still comes up to me and asks me ( I've done several pieces of art for
> him, from his military spec art to his more hard core stuff ) if he bugs me and
> if he is a nuscience to which I reply that no, he is not. I say this in good
> confidence after being "accousted" at Project A-kon this year by someone who
> was much more uncouth and bothersome than Bob used to be.
>
> Also in agreement with Steve, Bob does have deep pockets and certainly will pay
> the price for things he wants.
>
> At this time, I don't have much of a problem dealing with Bob and I don't harp
> on him anymore the way I used to. In a way, I feel sorry for him and wonder, at
> times, will become of him when his family passes on. Oh, I should point out
> that at Anthrocon this year, I had not a single problem with him in dealing
> with me. He was curteous, kept his chit-chat short if he saw I was busy with
> something, and generally did not prove a hassle.


>
> I think the ribbing on him needs to come to a close. If you do not want to deal
> with him...then curtly tell him so if he should ask about something or
> somesuch.
>

> Mr. Gallacci was right on in all of his points...pay them heed.
>
> BTW, Bob was on my flight leaving San Diego, dressed in slacks and a
> suit...the idea of wearing a better level of clothing for air travel lost in
> this day and age.
>
> TCASF,
>
> Pelzig


I can agree with your assessments entirely. "Bob" pretty much freaked me out the
first few times I saw him. He was much more well-behaved the last time I saw him
(AC99 or CF11). I explained to him, at the last con I saw him at, that I do not
draw hardcore bondage stuff. There are other artists out there who are far more
capable than I when it comes to that fetish. He seemed to understand what I said.
He's purchased a lot of my stuff in the past, and I am always careful to never bite
the hand that feeds me. After reading Tygger's and Pelzig's notes, I have come to
an even better understanding of the man. It was like one of those things that are
just out of reach. You know it, but you can't put your finger on it.
Okay, I think my brain is toasted. Losing ability
to...think...coherently....Must...get...more...soda....

--JMH


James Hardiman

unread,
Jul 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/27/00
to
This "crowbar" thing sounds pretty interesting... And I can see the basis for
your argument concerning the content and level of professionalism. I'm
interested in seeing where this goes!

--James M. Hardiman

Ostrich

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Jul 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/27/00
to
Furplay <fur...@novia.net> wrote:
>
> The point is that I have the once-in-a-lifetime chance at making
> something significant (big artist, big comic, big everything), and
> having to lose because of no fault of your own,
>
If it was me, and if I had a comic that I wanted to get published,
and I were going to SDCC anyway, I think I'd just take a whole
big stack of Xeroxes of my pencils or storyboards or whatever,
and try to put them (and a business card) in as many hands as
possible, while being just barely enough of a cheerfully
enthusiastic pest that no-one would forget me. That's a tactic
that works in a lot of business dealings where you've got an
idea to sell, and I can't think of any reason it wouldn't sell comics
too.

If, on the other paw, your goal is simply to collaborate with Fred
Perry, then you may have to admit that you're SOL. You can get
your comics published, but you can't control who someone else
wants to work with. And anyway, it's always more satisfying to
be known for one's own work than for having collaborated with
someone famous.

In the end, you'll find that being persistent and making your own
opportunities pays off a lot faster and more reliably than sitting
there waiting for opportunity to come knocking at the door.

Shon Howell

unread,
Jul 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/27/00
to
>Always can count on you to drop an outboard motor into the pot and churn
>things up, huh Shon?
>

Anything for a pal...

Furplay

unread,
Jul 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/27/00
to

Shon Howell wrote:
>
> >Always can count on you to drop an outboard motor into the pot and churn
> >things up, huh Shon?
> >
>
> Anything for a pal...
>

Then why you doing it for me then?.......

David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)

unread,
Jul 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM7/28/00