An Appeal to Mark Merlino

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Jim Arthur

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Dec 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/5/97
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What goes around comes around, Mark. There are those who know exactly
what you have done and what you enjoy. You and all those close to you,
and all those once close to you, know exactly what I mean. You're lucky
it's remained only rumor this long.

Stop holding your convention year after year, and make some effort to
repair the shit you've created. Please. For your sake, and for
others. What goes around comes around. Don't you realize that?

And if Mark doesn't, which one of you has the balls to step forward?

Elf Sternberg

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Dec 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/5/97
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In article <348858...@abac.com> Farlo <stan...@abac.com> writes:

>Where'd that come from?

I'm not sure, but from where I stand it seems to have come
well-deserved.

Elf

--
Elf Sternberg (e...@halcyon.com) / http://www.halcyon.com/elf

The God whom science recognizes must be a God of universal laws
exclusively, a God who does a wholesale, not a retail business.
He cannot accomodate His processes to the convenience of individuals.
- William James, The Varieties of Religious Experience, 1902

Farlo

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Dec 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/5/97
to Allen Kitchen

Allen Kitchen wrote:
>
> Mark runs Confurence.

Oh. Much thanks Allen! >^_^<

>
> As for what others are po'd about, my secondhand understanding
> is he supposedly thinks "furry" means "sex".

Uh oh. That's a problem.

> I'll make up my own mind when I go this year.

It's going to be my first confurence, too.

> I know several furs, some artists, who refuse to return to Confurence as
> long as Mark Merlino runs it. I'm going there to have fun, not worry about
> politics.

Same here - fun is #1, politics doesn't rank on the horizon...

> I won't rub anyone's muzzle in my sexuality. I ask the same in
> return. We'll see how it goes...

Well, I purrsonally would like to be noticed by the ladies,
but i'm very shy in public ...

I'm sure that most everyone will behave themselves, tho.

Speaking of shyness, i'm bringing definately bring my "Dragoncam",
and maybe also my Kodak DC-40 digital camera.

CF9 is going to be fun!

--
Farlo m>*_*<m

Farlo's pages >>> Http://users.abac.com/Standard

Atara

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Dec 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/5/97
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Farlo wrote:

> CF9 is going to be fun!

Stop it. Yer makin' me jealous. =P <G>

]:=8) Atara

Allen Kitchen

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Dec 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/6/97
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Farlo <stan...@abac.com> wrote in article <348858...@abac.com>...
> HUH!??


>
> Where'd that come from?
>

Mark runs Confurence.

As for what others are po'd about, my secondhand understanding

is he supposedly thinks "furry" means "sex". I've been told by several
folks (else I'd discount it as hearsay.) I don't know if he is truly
trying to
turn the fandom into a big spoogefest or not. But that is what some furs
are worried about. That, and the supposed bad image it creates.
I'll make up my own mind when I go this year. Yes, there are
sensuous sides to being furry. But it is not the end all be all of
furriness.


I know several furs, some artists, who refuse to return to Confurence as
long as Mark Merlino runs it. I'm going there to have fun, not worry about
politics.

I won't rub anyone's muzzle in my sexuality. I ask the same in
return. We'll see how it goes...

Shockwave
Allen Kitchen
all...@blkbox.com
http://www.blkbox.com/~osprey/

Vixy

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Dec 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/6/97
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MMilam writes:
>
> Just two weeks ago, you and others here told me that flamewars against others or
> other groups of furs were not accepted. Since this "Mark Melino" thing has found
> some replies, i'm begin to question wheter any of what was said to me in the
> last month was not to slience me.
>

Hmmmmm... maybe I should check again just to make sure.

. . .

Well, nothing seems to have changed. The world is still
revolving around it's axis and Mathew Milam is _not_ at the
center of it.

Now if I were to speculate, the difference here is that
no one is making blanket accusations about every reader of
AFF nor of the entire Furry Fandom. The original post is
just a personal message to an individual followed by broad
appeal to who-knows. I know not the target individual nor
the author. Nothing disturbing about it being here though.
===========================================================
Victry 'Vixy' Hyzenthlay
___________________
/ \ _
)""""\___ | - - - - - - - - - - | |_\____
)----| |\-| Vivacious Vixen-II |-/| | |\
)____|___|===========================| """|_)
`----` \| http://www.cris.com/~Vixy/|/"""""
"""|"""""""/"""\"""""""|"""
Vixy{nospam}@- `=++++=" "=++++=' -hot;mail.com
FCFc2wAC-D+dH-M++P++R+T+++W+Z++Sf++RLEaC++nd++e++h+i+p+sf+


Doodles

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Dec 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/6/97
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[bunny looks around cross-eyed]

Vas ist los?

Would you mind taking this private and explaining to me just _what_ in
the nine names of Buddah you speak of? Just remove the cheezies from my
e-mail address.

Unca Spooge, boggled.

no one in particular

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Dec 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/6/97
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MMilam wrote:
>
> In article <348882...@PSAMTHISyahoo.com>, Atara says...
> Just two weeks ago, you and others here told me that flamewars against others or
> other groups of furs were not accepted. Since this "Mark Melino" thing has found
> some replies, i'm begin to question wheter any of what was said to me in the
> last month was not to slience me.
>
> Matthew Milam
> (New email in a little while...)

Gotta say I agree here as far as flame wars go. This is going
to threaten to bring back the whole "ConFurence 8/Ed Kline's Letter"
bullshit
from a while back. This is the last thing we need. Ed Kline made some
first-hand observations and that's fine. And some others have too. Some
believe that the talk of second-hand acts can be dismissed as heresay,
but the fact is that a large enough number of people have claimed that
the whole thing is attracting people who make no bones about being
interested soley for sex and not for anthropomorphics to merit serious
consideration. If this is solely a matter of Mr. Merlino's handling
of the situation, then fine, but take it up in e-mail or postal mail.
It has been said that this person ignores such concerns in private such
that public airing is necessary as a last ditch effort. Given the
go-around
last time, it seems he either ignored the public comment and flames,
or did something and it is not apparent. I do not know either way. All
I do know is that this has to stop before everyone ends up at the
bleachers and we hear nothing but the chirping of crickets and the
slopping of spam in a.f.f.
I myself plan on hosting a convention someday and make the
promise that any adult behavior allowed will be sanctioned and held
in the night hours for adults only. Creation did this in NYC in 89
when they had the Trek actors do a cabaret of their own performances
which was uncensored. Adult artwork would be restricted to one area.
On-site obscene behavior would not be allowed. What happens elsewhere
is not in my control. If ConFurence is truly ending up badly, and
no one in charge is listening or acting, then perhaps those who are
against the behavior in question can organize their own competing
convention with controls from the start. But beginning the flamewar
again isn't going to help.
-Wayd Wolf, who's had enough of this...

Curtis Family

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Dec 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/6/97
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Pardon me, who are you and what have you done for Furry Fandom?

Mark created and hosts the longest running convention for our genre. Mark
is not perfect, but neither am I and neither are you.

And what is with this "You know what you've done" crap? Wasn't that the
title of a cheap horror movie a few years back?

This childish "he's so bad" crap is what makes us look like a bunch of
arrested adolescents.

Extremely

Mike Curtis
SHANDA FANTASY ARTS

Jim Arthur <ja...@mort.com> wrote in article <348858...@sixteen.com>...

Lisa Jennings

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Dec 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/6/97
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Farlo wrote:
> Allen Kitchen wrote:
> > Mark runs Confurence.
> Oh. Much thanks Allen! >^_^<

Maybe someone out there didn't know that little fact? *shrug*


> > As for what others are po'd about, my secondhand understanding
> > is he supposedly thinks "furry" means "sex".

> Uh oh. That's a problem.

A better explaination is that he feels the attraction of furry _for him_
is regarding its sexuality. This doesn't mean all 1200 attendees of the
con drops clothes and start an orgy in the lobby, so don't worry about
that.

> > I'll make up my own mind when I go this year.

> It's going to be my first confurence, too.

Oooh! Fresh toys! :3

> > I know several furs, some artists, who refuse to return to Confurence as
> > long as Mark Merlino runs it. I'm going there to have fun, not worry about
> > politics.

> Same here - fun is #1, politics doesn't rank on the horizon...

Well, _I_ am attending, and I've been there since CF0 if that helps your
mind any.

> > I won't rub anyone's muzzle in my sexuality. I ask the same in
> > return. We'll see how it goes...

> Well, I purrsonally would like to be noticed by the ladies,
> but i'm very shy in public ...

Hmm... time for the ermine to go a'dragon hunting? :3

> I'm sure that most everyone will behave themselves, tho.

They have in past years... but as it so often happens, it just takes a
couple of problem-children to make the rest of the group look bad.
Ignore them.

> Speaking of shyness, i'm bringing definately bring my "Dragoncam",
> and maybe also my Kodak DC-40 digital camera.

(Micole grins, remembering a certain 'cam' at CFE1 and the fun she
had...)

> CF9 is going to be fun!

I certainly _hope_ you have fun.... that is, after all, the point. No
matter _who_ is running it.

ermine

Farlo

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Dec 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/6/97
to

Lisa Jennings wrote:
>
> > Allen Kitchen wrote:
> > > Mark runs Confurence.
> Maybe someone out there didn't know that little fact? *shrug*

Nope. I didn't - so it was odd to see the original post, to say the
least.

>
> A better explaination is that he feels the attraction of furry _for him_
> is regarding its sexuality.

Oh. *Shrug* Entitled to his opinion, like anybody else.
As long as he's not cramming it down my throat, i'll be fine.

>
> Oooh! Fresh toys! :3

>Grin - I imagine that I should be worried<
>What will befall the little dragon? Stay tuned...<
>... till Post CF9 ... <

>
> Well, _I_ am attending, and I've been there since CF0 if that helps your
> mind any.

*Nodnod*

>
> Hmm... time for the ermine to go a'dragon hunting? :3

*Nodnod* Please do ...

I'd really like to meet you and many of the others here!

>
> > I'm sure that most everyone will behave themselves, tho.
>
> They have in past years... but as it so often happens, it just takes a
> couple of problem-children to make the rest of the group look bad.
> Ignore them.

I will - unless they're fun, i'm generally kinda tolerant.
(Sorta like Admiral-ly Understanding).

> > CF9 is going to be fun!
>
> I certainly _hope_ you have fun.... that is, after all, the point. No
> matter _who_ is running it.

Thank you!

--
Farlo m>*_*<m

My E-MAIL FILTER will route mail with "FUR" in the subject
to my priority e-mail folder.

Current items in my KILL FILTER:
There are no items in my kill filter.

jag...@netcom.com

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Dec 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/6/97
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Jim Arthur <ja...@mort.com> wrote:
> What goes around comes around, Mark. There are those who know exactly
> what you have done and what you enjoy. You and all those close to you,
> and all those once close to you, know exactly what I mean. You're lucky
> it's remained only rumor this long.
>
> Stop holding your convention year after year, and make some effort to
> repair the shit you've created. Please. For your sake, and for
> others. What goes around comes around. Don't you realize that?
>
> And if Mark doesn't, which one of you has the balls to step forward?

First off, I am not weighing in on ANY side of this debate, which has
been discussed before, NEVER to any conclusion, since there is no solid
evidence. Having said that...

When speaking publically about things that may be considered bad or
possibly that might be construed as violating certain laws or principles,
be certain that you have solid, verifiable evidence to back up those
claims. If you cannot do that, then I would suggest looking up the
definitions of "libel" and "slander".

If you want to discuss a possible problem or complaint, then it had better
be made either via e-mail, or by US mail. If unsubtantiated claims are
made in a public forum, then you might be opening up yourself to legal
actions by the person or group you are attempting to malign.

If you want to use vague attacks to go after unsubstantiated rumours,
don't do it in a public forum. All that does is push an agenda, and
attempt to sway people who do not know the facts with possibly false
propaganda. Get verifiable facts and evidence, and then you can proceed.

--
Glen Wooten

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| primary: jag...@netcom.com | secondary: glen....@fanciful.org |
_____________________________________________________________________

| Terrie's web page: http://users.aol.com/amperprodx/littlepaw.html |
_____________________________________________________________________


Rainshadow

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Dec 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/7/97
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> Jim Arthur <ja...@mort.com> wrote in article <348858...@sixteen.com>...

My sense for obscure english references picked up something in that fake email
address just now... "Morte 'd Arthur" is the original title of John Dunne's
(is that right?) classic english (as in way old) literature piece about
King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, the one that is considered
to be the first written record of the King Arthur legend... methinks this is
the same bloke who posted as "rm...@dada.net" or whatever, the one Richard
de Wylfin recognized as a pun...

So whoever this dude is, he's somewhat learned...

-Rain'

jag...@netcom.com

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Dec 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/7/97
to

Jim Arthur <ja...@mort.com> wrote:
> What goes around comes around, Mark. There are those who know exactly
> what you have done and what you enjoy. You and all those close to you,
> and all those once close to you, know exactly what I mean. You're lucky
> it's remained only rumor this long.
>
> Stop holding your convention year after year, and make some effort to
> repair the shit you've created. Please. For your sake, and for
> others. What goes around comes around. Don't you realize that?
>
> And if Mark doesn't, which one of you has the balls to step forward?

First off, I am not weighing in on ANY side of this debate, which has
been discussed before, NEVER to any conclusion, since there is no solid
evidence. Having said that...

When speaking publically about things that may be considered bad or
possibly that might be construed as violating certain laws or principles,
be certain that you have solid, verifiable evidence to back up those
claims. If you cannot do that, then I would suggest looking up the
definitions of "libel" and "slander".

If you want to discuss a possible problem or complaint, then it had better
be made either via e-mail, or by US mail. If unsubtantiated claims are
made in a public forum, then you might be opening up yourself to legal
actions by the person or group you are attempting to malign.

If you want to use vague attacks to go after unsubstantiated rumours, don't
do it in a public forum. All that does is push an agenda, and attempt to

sway people who do not know the facts with propaganda. Get verifiable

Captain Packrat

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Dec 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/7/97
to

On 6 Dec 1997 08:39:00 -0700, Doodles <doo...@cheezies.primenet.com>
wrote:

lots stuff snipped.

> Just remove the cheezies from my e-mail address.

Captain sneaks up and helps himself to the cheezies. ;)

.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Captain Packrat |
| (Captain on FurryMUCK and FurToonia) |
| |
| Fur Central ---> http://www.personal.isat.com/captpackrat/ |
| Plush Central ---> http://www.personal.isat.com/captpackrat/plush/ |
| |
| Furry Code 1.2 (available from Fur Central) |
| FRM/R4 A+++ C>+ D++ H+++ M+++ P++++ R+ T++++ W Z++>+++ |
| Sm+ RLCT* a cn++ d- e+ f++++ h+ iwf+++ |
| |
| If you're furry and you know it, Hug the Mouse! |
| |
| O. .O |
| ==V== |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Tim Gadd

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Dec 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/7/97
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Jim Arthur <ja...@mort.com> wrote:

>What goes around comes around, Mark. There are those who know exactly
>what you have done and what you enjoy. You and all those close to you,
>and all those once close to you, know exactly what I mean. You're lucky
>it's remained only rumor this long.

>Stop holding your convention year after year, and make some effort to
>repair the shit you've created. Please. For your sake, and for
>others. What goes around comes around. Don't you realize that?

>And if Mark doesn't, which one of you has the balls to step forward?

Starting a little early this year, aren't we?

I reckon good on you Mark for holding Confurence - otherwise I'd be
staying in a hotel in LA for 4 days for no particular reason, which
seems silly.

rans...@au-au.extern.ucsd.edu (Rainshadow) wrote:

>> Jim Arthur <ja...@mort.com> wrote in article <348858...@sixteen.com>...

>My sense for obscure english references picked up something in that fake email
>address just now... "Morte 'd Arthur" is the original title of John Dunne's
>(is that right?)

It's by Mallory, based mainly on 12th century French sources.

> classic english (as in way old) literature piece about
>King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, the one that is considered
>to be the first written record of the King Arthur legend... methinks this is
>the same bloke who posted as "rm...@dada.net" or whatever, the one Richard
>de Wylfin recognized as a pun...

>So whoever this dude is, he's somewhat learned...


--
Tim Gadd
Hobart, Tasmania

Change 'northcom' to 'southcom' in my address


jag...@netcom.com

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Dec 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/7/97
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MMilam wrote:
> In article <jaguar1E...@netcom.com>, jag...@netcom.com says...

> >
> >If you want to discuss a possible problem or complaint, then it had better
> >be made either via e-mail, or by US mail. If unsubtantiated claims are
> >made in a public forum, then you might be opening up yourself to legal
> >actions by the person or group you are attempting to malign.
>
> Legal actions, No one knows where the guy lives!!, how the hell can there be
> lega action. Some idiot tried to get my isp to shut my account down over a
> stupid trick i pulled. I'm off there now, but not because of what the person in
> question did. Luckly the president explained the policy of his company is to not
> interfer with discussions, especially flamed ones.

No one is talking about you. I am pointing out the legal ramifications
because in previous incarnations of this arguement, there have been
libelous & slanderous statements made (by people who are known to a large
portion of the fandom - NOT a possible faked name). I am merely pointing
out that if people weigh in in the "Let's Get Mark!" side with a lot of
rumours & made-up statements, they are asking for trouble.

> >If you want to use vague attacks to go after unsubstantiated rumours, don't
> >do it in a public forum.
>

> Maybe he isn't making a rumor or an attack without cause, maybe he's right.
> Don't always dismiss that side of the story yet.

Since no solid evidence has ever been presented of actions specific
people have made, then it's all rumours and/or lies. If someone (as
paraphrased from a previous statement) has the balls to come forward and
present some evidence of criminal wrong-doings, then let that person come
forward. Evidence that will stand up in a court of law, not "I was told
by someone who said someone saw..."

> >Get verifiable facts and evidence, and then you can proceed.
>

> Strange, I had verifiable facts and evidence.

Please see previous statement...

Mark Atwood

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Dec 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/7/97
to

Jim Arthur <ja...@mort.com> writes:
< VAGUE AND MYSTERIOUS ACCUSATIONS SNIPPED >

Damn, someone started the annual CF flamewar a month early.

Hey, "Jim", only the immature, the deranged, the `net-kooks and the
stupidly criminal do public "I know what you did" blackmail sort of
things. If you have an accusation, make it. If you don't, shut your
hole.

I'd plonk you, except I don't quite believe "Jim Arthur <ja...@mort.com>"
is a real account.

I don't know Mark, I enjoy ConFurence, and this LONG running complaint
(sans any real accusations (other than "He's icky!")) got REALLY old
over 5 years ago.

--
Mark Atwood | Thank you gentlemen, you are everything we have come to
z...@ampersand.com | expect from years of government training. -- MIB Zed

WalksFar

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Dec 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/8/97
to

On Sun, 7 Dec 1997 00:27:09 GMT, jag...@netcom.com wrote:

>Jim Arthur <ja...@mort.com> wrote:
>> What goes around comes around, Mark. There are those who know exactly
>> what you have done and what you enjoy. You and all those close to you,
>> and all those once close to you, know exactly what I mean. You're lucky
>> it's remained only rumor this long.
>>
>> Stop holding your convention year after year, and make some effort to
>> repair the shit you've created. Please. For your sake, and for
>> others. What goes around comes around. Don't you realize that?
>>
>> And if Mark doesn't, which one of you has the balls to step forward?
>

>First off, I am not weighing in on ANY side of this debate, which has
>been discussed before, NEVER to any conclusion, since there is no solid
>evidence. Having said that...
>
>When speaking publically about things that may be considered bad or
>possibly that might be construed as violating certain laws or principles,
>be certain that you have solid, verifiable evidence to back up those
>claims. If you cannot do that, then I would suggest looking up the
>definitions of "libel" and "slander".
>

>If you want to discuss a possible problem or complaint, then it had better
>be made either via e-mail, or by US mail. If unsubtantiated claims are
>made in a public forum, then you might be opening up yourself to legal
>actions by the person or group you are attempting to malign.
>

>If you want to use vague attacks to go after unsubstantiated rumours, don't

>do it in a public forum. All that does is push an agenda, and attempt to

>sway people who do not know the facts with propaganda. Get verifiable

>facts and evidence, and then you can proceed.
>

>--
>Glen Wooten


"Who is this arthur person, anyway? He speaks in vague terms
of things he will not allude to. Unless he wishes to be clear as to
his meanings, then let him stop his discourse! We have enough to do,
all of us who LIKE ConFurence and want it to continue and get better,
and do not need him!"

WalksFar, curious as to why the diatribes against Mark . . . .

Rivercoon

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Dec 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/8/97
to

In article <348858...@sixteen.com>, Jim Arthur <ja...@mort.com> writes:

>What goes around comes around, Mark. There are those who know exactly
what
>you have done and what you enjoy. You and all those close to you,
and all
>those once close to you, know exactly what I mean. You're lucky
it's remained
>only rumor this long.

Stop holding your convention year after year, and make
>some effort to
repair the shit you've created. Please. For your sake, and
>for
others. What goes around comes around. Don't you realize that?

And if
>Mark doesn't, which one of you has the balls to step forward?

If your intention is really to send Mark a message rather than just rant about
him in public I suggest emailing him directly or posting this were he is likely
to see it. He does not regularly read AFF, if at all.

CalAnim8R

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Dec 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/8/97
to

>> As for what others are po'd about, my secondhand >understanding>is he
supposedly thinks "furry" means "sex". I've >been told by several >folks (else
I'd discount it as hearsay.) I >don't know if he is truly>trying to turn the
fandom into a big >spoogefest or not. But that is what some furs are worried
about. >That, and the supposed bad image it creates<<

*snip*

A Normal's Introduction to Furry

I was at LosCon in Los Angeles just a few weeks ago. Browsing the party
board, I noticed there was only one 'furry' party advertised; the one that was
sponsored by ConFurence's Mark Merlino and Rod O'Riley. 'Food, Fun and
Furries!' promised the flier. So I decided to take a look, to see what being
furry is all about.

The door to the party was closed, so I opened it and entered. I looked around
the room. There was a table with pamphlets and publishings, along with binders
of artwork by various popular furry artists. I love cartoons, let's open the
books and see.

Gaah! There's a lot of pornography and X-rated artwork in those books, like
maybe 70%. There was no warning label on the covers; it was just like, haha,
surprise! And in one of the books there was animal pedophilia, bestiality and
Disney lions copulating. So this is what furry's all about.

I looked at some more pamphlets and was confused by one small green one. It
said "Live the Dream: Upcoming Events". It was about 'Alternative Lifestyles'.
Group marriages, Threesomes, and multiple relationships." Hmm. So 'being
furry' is about multiple relationships and group marriage.

There was a sort of stapled handout that was supposed to define what 'furry'
means as well. "A collection of words about the furry phenomenon" it said,
along with "This may shed some light on what we furries are about, and perhaps
peak the interest of some...to explore further." "Enclosed is a flyer for the
media convention/social gathering that Rod and I have been directing for
years.", meaning, ConFurence.

The flyer went on, "Here is a definition of 'furry', taken from a T-shirt..."
"4. A lifestyle revolving around a love and emulation of furries."

There were some other articles in the flyer about 'modern totems' and 'breaking
the news to your parents'. There was the first page of a story titled "The One
Lioness", apparently based on Merlino's role-playing character. As a footnote,
Merlino notes that he has since met many fellow role-players in person through
this muck, and "currently reside in our home".

So, based on these pamphlets, flyers and collections of artwork that was
representing what furry is all about, I came to the conclusion that
A. Furry is about 'alternative lifestyles'.
but more predominantly,
B. Furry is about sex.

What conclusions would any norm reach after this?
I know the one I've reached...stay away from ConFurence.

Only because I'm educated about the fandom can I not say "Furries must all be
perverts."

-An Animator who likes some furry stuff.

P.S. Sorry if this post turns out to be flameworthy. You can flame me in
private if you wish. It's just that it's too bad that Mark Merlino has made
'furry' out to be so squicky, and I'm wishing he'd stop.


Allen Kitchen

unread,
Dec 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/8/97
to


Lisa Jennings <NoS...@MyPlace.com> wrote in article
<348A2631...@MyPlace.com>...


> Farlo wrote:
> > > As for what others are po'd about, my secondhand
understanding
> > > is he supposedly thinks "furry" means "sex".

> > Uh oh. That's a problem.
>

> A better explaination is that he feels the attraction of furry _for him_

> is regarding its sexuality. This doesn't mean all 1200 attendees of the
> con drops clothes and start an orgy in the lobby, so don't worry about
> that.

Well, we shall see. The wife (who is mundane and not attending)
is VERY worried about me going to this. See what one person trumpeting
can do? How many other average furs can't make it because of one
furson trying to make his opinion become that of the con?

> > > I'll make up my own mind when I go this year.
> > It's going to be my first confurence, too.
> Oooh! Fresh toys! :3

I'm hardly fresh. I'm normally quite polite. :)
But within certain restrictions, I can be a fun wolftoy. :)

> Well, _I_ am attending, and I've been there since CF0 if that helps your
> mind any.

I've seen your art milady. And I hope to kiss your paw while
there. But it does little to ease my worries as I do not know you
personally.
But I'm still going, as my Recon team in CF8 reported nothing squicky
either.



> I certainly _hope_ you have fun.... that is, after all, the point. No
> matter _who_ is running it.

yes, that is the entire objective :)

> ermine

Vinson Mink

unread,
Dec 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/9/97
to

Furry = Sex...

Um, can anyone point out an actual occurence of either of us actually saying
this, to anyone?

Furry = Furry.

ROR

Wondering about people blatantly insulting his life mate...

Vinson Mink

unread,
Dec 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/9/97
to

To Mike Curtis:

Thanks Mike.

ROR

*hug*

D. A. Graf

unread,
Dec 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/9/97
to

Vinson Mink <vin...@netcom.com> wrote:

: Furry = Sex...

: Furry = Furry.

: ROR

ConDor 97. A late night panel. Mark Merlino stated: We all emulate
animals to explore our sexuality. Direct quotation.

Witnessed by: Jeff Ferris, James Birdsall, Fred Patten, Robert Torres,
Michele Gault, Michael Danaher (sp?), Jefferson Swycaffer, and myself.
The other three or four who were at the panel I don't know as I had never
seen them before.

Fred Patten commented to me that you, Rod, came up to him and told him
that Mark never said that. How would *you* know? *You* were *not* on the
panel or even in the room that night. Fred was, as were the people I
listed. This was witnessed.

The reporter from Marie Claire also gained this same impression when she
was at SDCC and spoke to me extensively. I've read the article, I know I
wasn't quoted or any of what I said was used. However, when she asked me
how I was introduced to the fur fandom, I told her: 1984 I was at a fur
party Mark threw, came with Terrie Smith. Mark handed to me a book full
of sexual illos and said: This is what the fandom is all about. The
reporter looked poleaxed, then leaned in and told me that Mark had just
done the same to her. Handed her a few books filled with pin up to real
hardcore work, stating: This is what the fandom is.

That's two. Others have stated the same thing has happened to them. Then
there is the posting from the person who went to the fur party at Loscon
this year. Another witness.

So, he has done this, very recently. It has been witnessed.

NOTE: Any flames and hate email or pmail will be ignored and deleted.

--Tygger


--
******************************************************************************
gr...@primenet.com
*** Fantasy, Dark Fantasy, Horror, Erotica Artist/Cartoonist***
*** Checkout the revisions at http://www.furnation.com/tygger ***
*** Creator of Guardian Knights heroic/dark fantasy/horror comic series***
******************************************************************************
"`Cause its easier to try
Than to prove it can't be done.
And its easier to stay
Than to turn around and run."

Blue World, The Moody Blues

real address is in signature

unread,
Dec 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/9/97
to

I've been around anthro fandom for 10 years now. Someone threatens a
lawsuit every couple of weeks somewhere for something.

I only know of one that actually was legally filed. That was many years
ago, and it never got to court as there was insufficient evidence.

90% of usenet is inaccurate information or outright slander. Less than
1% of it is actually news. Many newsreaders respond by saying "posting
article" when you say something. This one time really WAS news, but now
only a moderated newsgroup can be called such.

AFF, know it or not, is rather heavily moderated by three people that I
know of, but for the most part they just kill spam postings (ever notice
there aren't any?) Occasionally a whole thread will disappear, but it's
relatively rare. the huzzah server will not accept cancel messages and
it's interesting to compare sometimes.

Flames only cause as much damage as you want to let them. It's like
putting a "beware of dog" sign in your front yard and then hanging a
picture of a doberman on your front door.

real address is in signature

unread,
Dec 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/9/97
to

Well, that post neither says specifically what is wrong, nor suggests
anything to correct it.

It did start a flame thread though, as messages like that usually do.

Really productive! like everything on usenet.

real address is in signature

unread,
Dec 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/9/97
to

"I know what you did last summer" is actually in theaters now.

My guess is that that vague posting resulted from something on one of
the mucks. It sounded liek the person writing the post had never even
been to one of the conventions!

The email address seems to be real though - it may be going to /dev/null
but it isn't bouncing.

http://www.huzzah.com/
cus...@huzzah.org

Jim Doolittle

unread,
Dec 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/9/97
to

In article <66k5u0$1nr$1...@newsd-113.bryant.webtv.net>,

dontspa...@webtv.net (real address is in signature) wrote:

> AFF, know it or not, is rather heavily moderated by three people that I
> know of, but for the most part they just kill spam postings (ever notice
> there aren't any?) Occasionally a whole thread will disappear, but it's
> relatively rare. the huzzah server will not accept cancel messages and
> it's interesting to compare sometimes.

Quite frankly, this doesn't bother me in the least. I don't care for spam
postings, and am quite glad to be rid of them. I haven't seen any
instances of major threads dissapearing without warning, and I don't
expect it to happen in the future. It's all about trust...

-Jim, who wouldn't mind seeing a.f.f become officially moderated. Too much
hassle, though...

--
Jim Doolittle
dool...@uiuc.edu
gi...@betterbox.net
http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/doolittl
PGP 5.0 public key available


Curtis Family

unread,
Dec 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/9/97
to


CalAnim8R <cala...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19971208052...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...

>
> A Normal's Introduction to Furry
>
> I was at LosCon in Los Angeles just a few weeks ago. Browsing the party
> board, I noticed there was only one 'furry' party advertised; the one
that was
> sponsored by ConFurence's Mark Merlino and Rod O'Riley. 'Food, Fun and
> Furries!' promised the flier. So I decided to take a look, to see what
being
> furry is all about.
>
> The door to the party was closed, so I opened it and entered.

So you entered of your own free will.

I looked around
> the room. There was a table with pamphlets and publishings, along with
binders
> of artwork by various popular furry artists. I love cartoons, let's open
the
> books and see.
>
> Gaah! There's a lot of pornography and X-rated artwork in those books,
like
> maybe 70%. There was no warning label on the covers; it was just like,
haha,
> surprise! And in one of the books there was animal pedophilia,
bestiality and
> Disney lions copulating. So this is what furry's all about.

You know, I can go to my local Hastings and pick up a Playboy or Hustler.
It has naked women in it.

Gee, I guess all Hastings sells is pornography.

>
> I looked at some more pamphlets and was confused by one small green one.
It
> said "Live the Dream: Upcoming Events". It was about 'Alternative
Lifestyles'.
> Group marriages, Threesomes, and multiple relationships." Hmm. So
'being
> furry' is about multiple relationships and group marriage.

This story is beginning to remind me of the five blind men and the
elephant......

You know, I think you went in that room looking for something and found it.
Did anyone twist your arm to open those books? Plus did you read ALL of
them or just the "tittilating" parts. Yes, sex is a large subject in
furrydom. It isn't the only one. Most black books have a subject at the
first stating the theme. I think you found the books you wanted to look at
most.


> I know the one I've reached...stay away from ConFurence.
>

Maybe YOU should stay away from Confurence..... Go instead to a Trek con
and read some slash fiction.


> Only because I'm educated about the fandom can I not say "Furries must
all be
> perverts."
>
> -An Animator who likes some furry stuff.
>
> P.S. Sorry if this post turns out to be flameworthy. You can flame me
in
> private if you wish. It's just that it's too bad that Mark Merlino has
made
> 'furry' out to be so squicky, and I'm wishing he'd stop.
>

I am too much of a gentleman to say what I think of this Nazi post on aff.

Allen Kitchen

unread,
Dec 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/9/97
to


Curtis Family <shan...@cyberback.com> wrote in article
<01bd04e2$3bc61840$df6d0fd0@shanda>...


> CalAnim8R <cala...@aol.com> wrote in article
> <19971208052...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>
> > A Normal's Introduction to Furry

> > Gaah! There's a lot of pornography and X-rated artwork in those books,
> like
> > maybe 70%. There was no warning label on the covers; it was just like,
> haha,
> > surprise! And in one of the books there was animal pedophilia,
> bestiality and
> > Disney lions copulating. So this is what furry's all about.
>
> You know, I can go to my local Hastings and pick up a Playboy or Hustler.

> It has naked women in it.
>
> Gee, I guess all Hastings sells is pornography.

To be fair, at least when you open a Hustler, you aren't barraged
with images of mickey mouse and barney. If someone got such a mag,
I imagine furious wouldn't even begin to describe the purchaser. I'm
confident CalAnim8r felt a similar shock. She/he likes cartoons, and
isn't looking for sex, but has it "rammed down the eyesockets."

I'm no prude. And erotica (and even some spooge) have their
place. But it is NOT what ALL furrydom is about. And it is courtesy
(even smart) to give some kind of warning. What if some senator's
daughter had wandered in there, looked at the cartoons, then told daddy
what she saw? Don't we have enough trouble?

Be careful when you claim to represent all the fandom. There is
not one among you who speaks for me. And I'd hate to see the genre
I've grown to love get ruined by selfish people, no matter what their
cause. Cal hung around and looked, so the shock couldn't have been
too great. At the same time there is no need for "Stealth spooge." If
you are brave enough to show your work, then show it. There is no
need to waylay folks.

> I am too much of a gentleman to say what I think of this Nazi post on
aff.

And frankly, I'm a bit surprised to hear the word 'nazi' tossed
about from you sir. My opinion of you is higher than that...

> Mike Curtis
> SHANDA FANTASY ARTS

Allen Kitchen
all...@blkbox.com
http://www.blkbox.com/~osprey/

Farlo

unread,
Dec 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/9/97
to

real address is in signature wrote:
>
> AFF, know it or not, is rather heavily moderated by three people that I
> know of, but for the most part they just kill spam postings (ever notice
> there aren't any?)

I hadn't, but, now that it's been mentioned

... Hurray for the moderators!
... Hurray for AFF!

Good job!


--
Farlo m>*_*<m

Urban Fey Dragon

Adding "FUR" to the subject line will route replies
to my Priority folder.

Patrick C. Jones

unread,
Dec 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/10/97
to

cala...@aol.com (CalAnim8R) wrote:


>*snip*

>A Normal's Introduction to Furry

*Buzzsaw!*

>So, based on these pamphlets, flyers and collections of artwork that was
>representing what furry is all about, I came to the conclusion that
>A. Furry is about 'alternative lifestyles'.
> but more predominantly,
>B. Furry is about sex.

[Hmm. "Lifestyling" and "Porno". Ya know, when I see only the extreme
interpretations on a subject, I go looking for the moderates. They're
usually bound and gagged in a corner somewhere :p///3 ]

>P.S. Sorry if this post turns out to be flameworthy. You can flame me in
>private if you wish. It's just that it's too bad that Mark Merlino has made
>'furry' out to be so squicky, and I'm wishing he'd stop.

[No such luck, my automatic CO2 flame-extinguisher is working
perf...<FOOOOOOSSSSHHH!!!!!!!!>]


Vinson Mink

unread,
Dec 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/10/97
to

In article <66k57q$1m2$1...@newsd-113.bryant.webtv.net>,

Button I'm fond of... "UseNet is like Tetris for those of us who still
remember how to read..."

ROR

Timothy Fay

unread,
Dec 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/10/97
to

Jim Doolittle wrote:
>
> In article <66k5u0$1nr$1...@newsd-113.bryant.webtv.net>,
> dontspa...@webtv.net (real address is in signature) wrote:
>
> > Occasionally a whole thread will disappear, but it's
> > relatively rare. the huzzah server will not accept cancel messages and
> > it's interesting to compare sometimes.
>
> Quite frankly, this doesn't bother me in the least. I don't care for spam
> postings, and am quite glad to be rid of them. I haven't seen any
> instances of major threads dissapearing without warning, and I don't
> expect it to happen in the future. It's all about trust...
>
> -Jim, who wouldn't mind seeing a.f.f become officially moderated. Too much
> hassle, though...

Yeah. The biggest hassle is finding someone neutral enough that
everyone
could trust.

As much of a pain as this newsgroup can be, it's still better that it is
un-moderated (except for the spam, and I'm not sure I'm entirely
comfortable
with that). Any form of 'moderation' after the fact is simply
censorship,
and we've had enough of that sort of talk from Sen. Exon and the U.S.
Congress, thank you very much.

-Tim
---
Remove the "delete..this.." in my address to reply.
http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m279/fayxx001/

no one in particular

unread,
Dec 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/10/97
to

Allen Kitchen wrote:
>
> Lisa Jennings <NoS...@MyPlace.com> wrote in article
> <348A2631...@MyPlace.com>...
> > Farlo wrote:
> > > > As for what others are po'd about, my secondhand
> understanding
> > > > is he supposedly thinks "furry" means "sex".
> > > Uh oh. That's a problem.
> >
> > A better explaination is that he feels the attraction of furry _for him_
> > is regarding its sexuality. This doesn't mean all 1200 attendees of the
> > con drops clothes and start an orgy in the lobby, so don't worry about
> > that.
>
> Well, we shall see. The wife (who is mundane and not attending)
> is VERY worried about me going to this. See what one person trumpeting
> can do? How many other average furs can't make it because of one
> furson trying to make his opinion become that of the con?
>
> > > > I'll make up my own mind when I go this year.
> > > It's going to be my first confurence, too.
> > Oooh! Fresh toys! :3
>
> I'm hardly fresh. I'm normally quite polite. :)
> But within certain restrictions, I can be a fun wolftoy. :)
(snip)

<VOICE STYLE:KEVIN MEANY>You should be ashamed of yourself!
Not brining your wife and saying such things.</VOICE>
Seriously though, there are some things I don't need to
picture. And that whole thing I accidentally started has degenerated
into a discussion of the physics of flying female anatomy and...
Oh, man, where's my Prozac?!
-Wayd Wolf, who needs a nap...
>
> Shockwave
> Allen Kitchen

no one in particular

unread,
Dec 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/10/97
to

Farlo wrote:
>
> real address is in signature wrote:
> >
> > AFF, know it or not, is rather heavily moderated by three people that I
> > know of, but for the most part they just kill spam postings (ever notice
> > there aren't any?)
>
> I hadn't, but, now that it's been mentioned
>
> ... Hurray for the moderators!
> ... Hurray for AFF!
>
> Good job!
>
> --
> Farlo m>*_*<m

More like de-spammed at olsy-na.com and fysh.org and so on.
Furs seem to be heaviest there, so less spam is observed in propogation.
Not a bad deal. We owe these people a lot.
-Wayd Wolf

Leah Verre

unread,
Dec 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/10/97
to

>
> You know, I think you went in that room looking for something and found
it.
> Did anyone twist your arm to open those books? Plus did you read ALL of
> them or just the "tittilating" parts. Yes, sex is a large subject in
> furrydom. It isn't the only one. Most black books have a subject at
the
> first stating the theme. I think you found the books you wanted to look
at
> most.

> I am too much of a gentleman to say what I think of this Nazi post on
aff.
>
>

> Mike Curtis
> SHANDA FANTASY ARTS
> >
>

I found nothing "Naziesque" about the post above. I have no idea where you
drew that particular conclusion.
Many people, Mike ... MANY people have had similar experiences as the one
the poster was referring to.


WalksFar

unread,
Dec 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/11/97
to

On 6 Dec 1997 02:08:48 GMT, "Allen Kitchen" <allen...@blkbox.com>
wrote:

>
>
>Farlo <stan...@abac.com> wrote in article <348858...@abac.com>...
>> HUH!??
>>
>> Where'd that come from?
>>
>
> Mark runs Confurence.


>
> As for what others are po'd about, my secondhand understanding

>is he supposedly thinks "furry" means "sex". I've been told by several

>folks (else I'd discount it as hearsay.) I don't know if he is truly
>trying to
>turn the fandom into a big spoogefest or not. But that is what some furs

>are worried about. That, and the supposed bad image it creates.
> I'll make up my own mind when I go this year. Yes, there are
>sensuous sides to being furry. But it is not the end all be all of
>furriness.
>I know several furs, some artists, who refuse to return to Confurence as
>long as Mark Merlino runs it. I'm going there to have fun, not worry about
>politics.
> I won't rub anyone's muzzle in my sexuality. I ask the same in
>return. We'll see how it goes...
>
>Shockwave


"Good for you! I know exactly what they insinuate and have
seen a bit of that at various times. I go to have fun, peruse art,
and have fun with my friends . . . Some of whom I cannot get together
with at any other time."

WalksFar . . . .

WalksFar

unread,
Dec 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/11/97
to

On 9 Dec 1997 20:37:04 GMT, "Curtis Family" <shan...@cyberback.com>
wrote:

>
>
>CalAnim8R <cala...@aol.com> wrote in article
><19971208052...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>
>>

>> A Normal's Introduction to Furry
>>

>> I was at LosCon in Los Angeles just a few weeks ago. Browsing the party
>> board, I noticed there was only one 'furry' party advertised; the one
>that was
>> sponsored by ConFurence's Mark Merlino and Rod O'Riley. 'Food, Fun and
>> Furries!' promised the flier. So I decided to take a look, to see what
>being
>> furry is all about.
>>
>> The door to the party was closed, so I opened it and entered.
>
>So you entered of your own free will.
>
> I looked around
>> the room. There was a table with pamphlets and publishings, along with
>binders
>> of artwork by various popular furry artists. I love cartoons, let's open
>the
>> books and see.
>>

>> Gaah! There's a lot of pornography and X-rated artwork in those books,
>like
>> maybe 70%. There was no warning label on the covers; it was just like,
>haha,
>> surprise! And in one of the books there was animal pedophilia,
>bestiality and
>> Disney lions copulating. So this is what furry's all about.
>
>You know, I can go to my local Hastings and pick up a Playboy or Hustler.
>It has naked women in it.
>
>Gee, I guess all Hastings sells is pornography.
>
>>

>> So, based on these pamphlets, flyers and collections of artwork that was
>> representing what furry is all about, I came to the conclusion that
>> A. Furry is about 'alternative lifestyles'.
>> but more predominantly,
>> B. Furry is about sex.
>>

>> What conclusions would any norm reach after this?
>

>You know, I think you went in that room looking for something and found it.
>Did anyone twist your arm to open those books? Plus did you read ALL of
>them or just the "tittilating" parts. Yes, sex is a large subject in
>furrydom. It isn't the only one. Most black books have a subject at the
>first stating the theme. I think you found the books you wanted to look at
>most.
>
>

>> I know the one I've reached...stay away from ConFurence.
>>
>
> Maybe YOU should stay away from Confurence..... Go instead to a Trek con
>and read some slash fiction.
>
>
>> Only because I'm educated about the fandom can I not say "Furries must
>all be
>> perverts."
>>
>> -An Animator who likes some furry stuff.
>>

>> P.S. Sorry if this post turns out to be flameworthy. You can flame me
>in
>> private if you wish. It's just that it's too bad that Mark Merlino has
>made
>> 'furry' out to be so squicky, and I'm wishing he'd stop.
>>
>

>I am too much of a gentleman to say what I think of this Nazi post on aff.
>
>
>Mike Curtis
>SHANDA FANTASY ARTS
>>

It seems to me we are doing exactly what we should not be
doing. ConFurence is what you make of it. These attacks on Merlino
and ConFurence serve only to bring it down and destroy what the fans
enjoy most about anthropomorphism. If one goes to ConFurence seeking
pornography, i am sure they will find it. If they go to meet friends
and enjoy themselves, I believe they will. If they go to learn
anthropomorphic art, costuming, animation, I KNOW they will!

We are who we are. Confurence has problems. Name a Fan
Convention that does NOT! That is best handled behind the scenes
taking the fan's interests and concerns into consideration. We bring
to conFurence our own perceptions and feelings. let us not poison
others because something does not particularly fit our "ways."

Walksfar, in agreement with Mike Curtis . . . .

WalksFar

unread,
Dec 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/11/97
to

On 9 Dec 1997 11:48:00 -0700, "D. A. Graf"
<REMOVEC...@TOEMAILREPLY.primenet.com> wrote:


"Hi, Sis!" WalksFar waves, then adds, "I have to agree. I
was around when incidences like this happened and have to agree that
Mark seems to push only the one side of anthropomorphism."

WalksFar, who has heard and seen enough before hand . . . .

Dale Farmer

unread,
Dec 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/11/97
to

WalksFar (walk...@psnw.com) wrote:
: On 9 Dec 1997 20:37:04 GMT, "Curtis Family" <shan...@cyberback.com>

: wrote:
: >CalAnim8R <cala...@aol.com> wrote in article
: ><19971208052...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
: >> A Normal's Introduction to Furry
: >>
: >> I was at LosCon in Los Angeles just a few weeks ago. Browsing the party
: >> board, I noticed there was only one 'furry' party advertised; the one
: >that was
: >> sponsored by ConFurence's Mark Merlino and Rod O'Riley. 'Food, Fun and
: >> Furries!' promised the flier. So I decided to take a look, to see what
: >being
: >> furry is all about.
: >> The door to the party was closed, so I opened it and entered.
: >So you entered of your own free will.
It was a public party, advertised on the party board. I, and many other
fans I know make a practice of visiting *every* party listed at a con.
: > (snip)
: >> Gaah! There's a lot of pornography and X-rated artwork in those books,

: >like
: >> maybe 70%. There was no warning label on the covers; it was just like,
: >> (snip)
: >>
: >> So, based on these pamphlets, flyers and collections of artwork that was

: >> representing what furry is all about, I came to the conclusion that
: >> A. Furry is about 'alternative lifestyles'.
: >> but more predominantly,
: >> B. Furry is about sex.
: >>
: >> What conclusions would any norm reach after this?
: >
: >You know, I think you went in that room looking for something and found it.
: >Did anyone twist your arm to open those books? Plus did you read ALL of
: >them or just the "tittilating" parts. Yes, sex is a large subject in
: >furrydom. It isn't the only one. Most black books have a subject at the
: >first stating the theme. I think you found the books you wanted to look at
: >most.
: >
The random person walking into that party *has no expectations beyond what
was on the party flyer*. They don't have the background to even expect
that the black book laying there has a subject that they need to check
first, they look around the room and see people drawing/looking in the
books, and think "Ohh! pretty pictures!". Then they see some BDSM spooge
explosion, and BOOM, first impression has been formed. furry==kinky sex.
Now every mention of furry fandom will get put through that filter, and
slant applied. That person carrying a box of hardware for the art show
is, in that persons' mind, carrying bondage gear. And every person
wearing a collar, every PDA, everyone wearing revealing clothing, and
a black book or a furry themed tshirt will re-enforce that furry==sex
first impression.
So if you are holding a public "furry party" keep the X rated
stuff under control. Especially since if that random person in an
minor, letting them see that stuff *is* against the law.

: It seems to me we are doing exactly what we should not be


: doing. ConFurence is what you make of it. These attacks on Merlino
: and ConFurence serve only to bring it down and destroy what the fans
: enjoy most about anthropomorphism. If one goes to ConFurence seeking
: pornography, i am sure they will find it. If they go to meet friends
: and enjoy themselves, I believe they will. If they go to learn
: anthropomorphic art, costuming, animation, I KNOW they will!
:
: We are who we are. Confurence has problems. Name a Fan
: Convention that does NOT! That is best handled behind the scenes
: taking the fan's interests and concerns into consideration. We bring
: to conFurence our own perceptions and feelings. let us not poison
: others because something does not particularly fit our "ways."
:
: Walksfar, in agreement with Mike Curtis . . . .

The problem is that far too many attendees of confurence (I won't
call them furry fans, because that's not the reason that they came
to the con.) Don't have the minimal social grace needed to know
when it is time to *TAKE IT TO YOUR ROOM*! I don't begrudge anyone
the desire to indulge in whatever floats their boat, but please,
please, take it out of the public parts of the hotel and put it
in your room, behind a locked door. I don't think that is asking
too much of anybody.


--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dale Farmer Da...@access.digex.net Personal opinion. Sudbury, Mass.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

matthew_milam

unread,
Dec 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/11/97
to

On Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:24:48 -0800, dontspa...@webtv.net (real

address is in signature) wrote:

>I've been around anthro fandom for 10 years now. Someone threatens a
>lawsuit every couple of weeks somewhere for something.

I recently got one thrown at me from DLS, course i called the
president and told me it was not in his policy to enforce fights
between people on the net. Only if i was spamming (For those that are
thinking about it, I've changed providers).

>
>I only know of one that actually was legally filed. That was many years
>ago, and it never got to court as there was insufficient evidence.

Most lawsuits at Mcdonald's are like that.

>90% of usenet is inaccurate information or outright slander. Less than
>1% of it is actually news.

Where can i find that one percent, then i could possibly find people
to talk to rather than people who get mad at click of a button.

> Many newsreaders respond by saying "posting
>article" when you say something. This one time really WAS news, but now
>only a moderated newsgroup can be called such.
>

JMS was forced to leave his "moderated" newsgroup twice, I dont' know
if tha'ts neccessary good either.

>AFF, know it or not, is rather heavily moderated by three people that I
>know of, but for the most part they just kill spam postings (ever notice
>there aren't any?)

Those same three people make a point of wanting to call your ISP if
you are too intense with a subject. It is good the spam postings are
not in this newsgroup, however i have questions for the moderators of
this newsgroup which can be taken to email (For the heads of this
newsgroup that are listening, email me).

>>Flames only cause as much damage as you want to let them. It's like
>putting a "beware of dog" sign in your front yard and then hanging a
>picture of a doberman on your front door.

Some people turn subjects into flames in order to have them attract
less attenion.

Matthew Milam
mmilam@(delete the no spam)enteract.com


Matthew Milam

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Dec 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/11/97
to

On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:00:37 -0600, Timothy Fay
<delete..this..fayxx001@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:

>
>As much of a pain as this newsgroup can be, it's still better that it is
>un-moderated (except for the spam, and I'm not sure I'm entirely
>comfortable
>with that). Any form of 'moderation' after the fact is simply
>censorship,
>and we've had enough of that sort of talk from Sen. Exon and the U.S.
>Congress, thank you very much.
>
>-Tim
>---

The Goverment doesn't have to censor anyone. People can do it as well.

--Matthew

cal...@goodnet.com

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Dec 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/11/97
to

"D. A. Graf" <REMOVEC...@TOEMAILREPLY.primenet.com> wrote:
> Vinson Mink <vin...@netcom.com> wrote:
> : Furry = Sex...
> : Um, can anyone point out an actual occurence of either of us actually
> : saying this, to anyone?

> ConDor 97. A late night panel. Mark Merlino stated: We all emulate


> animals to explore our sexuality. Direct quotation.

I can confirm a similar case. At VegasCon 1, several years ago,
ConFurence had an "outreach" table where they were hawking CF merchandise
--- and, more importantly as regards this matter, a number of "black
books". To their credit, the ones with porn were marked as such, but at
the time I was still enough of a prude to blush hot red with shock at
things like (among dozens of other things) a Terrie Smith pic of a black
stallion masturbating in the snow. Extremely well- done, artistically,
but it really made me wonder if the fandom was something I wanted to get
involved with. Had I not first met the fandom through comics --- notably
Space Ark, Cerebus, and Red Shetland --- CF's table would have scared me
off. I mean LITERALLY scared me off. Thanks to my earlier exposure to
non-sex material, fortunately, I knew better than to assume that's all
there was to it, and today I don't have a problem with viewing such
material now that I've acclimatized myself to it.

Unfortunately, there are an awful lot of people in fandom who either
don't recall how *they* once reacted to this sort of thing, or if they
never had a problem with it they refuse to even bother trying to
understand how *other* people might feel about it. As far as they're
concerned, by and large, if a newcomer to the fandom is squicked by the
notion of a giant vixen masturbating on a skyscraper while ripping out
her own tonsils, well, that's HIS problem and the fandom is better off
without such "fascist prudes".

I also have to mention that I'm shocked at seeing Mike Curtis
responding to CalAnim8r using the term "Nazi"...having been gone from AFF
for a while, Cal's letter seemed to be a frank and up-front statement of
a very real human being's reaction to this sort of material when exposed
to it for the first time, and Mike bit Cal's head off for it. That wasn't
necessary, and it was quite close- minded. I haven't read the rest of my
catch-up posts yet, but I do hope Mike has since apologized, as I would
expect a man of his character to recognize and amend such an error.

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

cal...@goodnet.com

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Dec 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/11/97
to

In article <348f645a...@news.psnw.com>,

walk...@psnw.com (WalksFar) wrote:
> It seems to me we are doing exactly what we should not be
> doing. ConFurence is what you make of it. These attacks on Merlino
> and ConFurence serve only to bring it down and destroy what the fans
> enjoy most about anthropomorphism.

CalAnim8r's post was in no way construable as an "attack". It was, in
fact, the bald-faced truth. As for CF8, which I attended (as I attended
CF4-7, and shall attend CF9), I personally was treated to the sight of
someone in full-torso bondage gear, ball gag, and leash being "walked" by
someone else.

In the main lobby, next to the elevators.

Even in California, where I used to live, this sort of behavior --- in
public --- is rare to the point where any "norm" would be left to assume
they were "with the convention". Which, of course, they were.

Back after CF7, there was a firestorm of controversy concerning similar
behavior from some attendees. Mark Merlino's "policy" in response to this
was contained in one line in the CF8 program book...which, of course, was
only distributed *at* CF8. No policy on the matter was made public or
solidified prior to this. Mark's policy was, simply, to "tone it down a
bit". The result was that things got worse. This has been a steady trend
for CF since CF4, and some would say earlier; a lax attitude towards lewd
public behavior (a crime in most areas) has led to more blatant displays
every following year, and now we literally have "leather bondage queens"
strutting around as though they own the convention.

As a result, ConFurence IS being damaged...many people will NOT attend
because of this matter. This is called "voting with your feet", which is
what many diehard supporters of CF's lax attitude have suggested --- and
yet, many of those same supporters seem to scream "fascist" or "Nazi"
when someone DOES vote with their feet and dare to say why. *Exactly*
this happened between Mike Curtis and CalAnim8r. Cal got squicked by a CF
party, chose to stay away based on her experience, and Mike calls her a
Nazi. I put this down to a momentary lapse on his part, because that
*isn't* the Mike Curtis I know and admire. But there *are* a number who
are quite free and regular in the dispensing of extremism to defend the
indefensible.

> If one goes to ConFurence seeking
> pornography, i am sure they will find it. If they go to meet friends
> and enjoy themselves, I believe they will. If they go to learn
> anthropomorphic art, costuming, animation, I KNOW they will!

Certainly. Despite my experience with the leather lads, I truly enjoy CF
and will continue to attend for as long as I can. This, however, is
because I've been involved in the fandom long enough to be able to
largely ignore just about anything I find offensive. I can take it with
the requisite grain of salt because I've had time to get used to it.
Newbies, by their very newness, have NOT have that time. It should
surprise no one that a significant number of newcomers to the fandom, who
find it via CF, may well flee it.

> We are who we are. Confurence has problems. Name a Fan
> Convention that does NOT! That is best handled behind the scenes
> taking the fan's interests and concerns into consideration.

The problem here is that, after literally YEARS of agitation from fans on
this matter, their interests and concerns are NOT being considered. At
all. They are, in fact, being rebuffed as "hateful" by many, while the
con staff themselves remain largely silent or quietly supportive of such
activities.

Because CF is not addressing these concerns, the concerned are going
elsewhere for their conventions where at all possible. ZonieCon,
f'rinstance, which will be coming up next May, was made possible because
of the niche created by CF's alienation of some 100+ California/Arizona
furry fans. We are catering to that group, to provide them with a
convention they don't have to cross the nation to get to. 100+ is a small
fraction of CF's attendance, of course...but it is enough to be concerned
about.

> We bring to conFurence our own perceptions and feelings. let us not poison
> others because something does not particularly fit our "ways."

Which is an attitude, quite frankly, that I have seen from *both* sides
of the CF fence.

Farlo

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Dec 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/11/97
to

Vixy wrote:
>
> Heads of AFF? Wooooww... someone is actually in charge here?
> So when did it all change? ;)

I was unananimousilly elected "El Presidente for *life*".

(Just assumed that *everyfur* knew that already...)

Actually, there are some nice furs who do alot of work
updatastream somewhere, and they strip the spam out of AFF
at our end. Somefur told me where, but I forgot.

I'm still grateful, tho.

--
Farlo m>*_*<m

Farlo

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Dec 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/11/97
to

Vixy wrote:
>
> ** OOOoooo! Looky looky! **
> X-No-Archive: Yes <----------**{We can even do it to ourselves! :D}**

Ah, c'mon Vixy - be nice! m>@_-<m

etho...@flash.net

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Dec 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/11/97
to

In Article<3490ab7b...@snews.zippo.com>, <mmi...@enteract.com> write:


> On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:22:02 -0600, cal...@goodnet.com wrote:
>
> >In article <348f645a...@news.psnw.com>,
> > walk...@psnw.com (WalksFar) wrote:
> >> It seems to me we are doing exactly what we should not be
> >> doing. ConFurence is what you make of it. These attacks on Merlino
> >> and ConFurence serve only to bring it down and destroy what the fans
> >> enjoy most about anthropomorphism.
> >
> >CalAnim8r's post was in no way construable as an "attack". It was, in
> >fact, the bald-faced truth.
>

> The Truth in this case is truth of opinon.

[excellent points by Matt trimmed for space]

> But isn't part of being furry more of a freedom to express yourslef
> without the constraints that society brings. Or am i mistaken?

I don't think it's an inherent attitude of fur-fandom, but it's a
good one that should be encouraged, within reason.

> >
> > As a result, ConFurence IS being damaged..
>

> No, I think furries have lost their furryness and have returned to
> humans. The result is this discussion.

I think it's just people choosing what they want to do and where
they want to do it. As long as no-one's harrassing or abusing anyone,
let the situation evolve as it will.

> >.many people will NOT attend
> >because of this matter.
>

> Many people don't accept different people, and often those same "many"
> people are just as werid and out-of-whack as the very ones they fire
> on.

An excellent point, as many muckers who remember the Plain
Vanilla Furry society can attest.

> >This is called "voting with your feet", which is
> >what many diehard supporters of CF's lax attitude have suggested --- and
> >yet, many of those same supporters seem to scream "fascist" or "Nazi"
> >when someone DOES vote with their feet and dare to say why.
>

> I would like to know the whole "voting with your feet" concept (Email
> is below)

Basically, what he is describing is that people who don't
want to be somewhere or attend some event...don't. And that's fine. CF
will evolve to suit the needs of the furries who go there, and vice versa.


Eric the .5b


Vixy

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Dec 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/12/97
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Matthew Milam <mmi...@enteract.com> wrote in article <3490272d...@snews.zippo.com>...

** OOOoooo! Looky looky! **

Path: furry.ao.net!news.fysh.org!news.lupine.com!zdc!szdc!super.zippo.com!newsp.zippo.com!sdrn
From: MMilam
Newsgroups: alt.fan.furry
Subject: Re: A Plan for Alt.fan.furry
Date: 24 Nov 1997 17:05:05 -0800
Organization: Super Zippo News Service [http://super.zippo.com]
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <65d881$4...@sdrn.zippo.com>
References: <01bcf90c$8e308700$8f301bc6@spgspare> <65cu06$64r$1...@chaos.ao.net>
<347A02...@nmt.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: p-017.newsdawg.com


X-No-Archive: Yes <----------**{We can even do it to ourselves! :D}**

Xref: furry.ao.net alt.fan.furry:29048

===========================================================
Victry 'Vixy' Hyzenthlay; who just do'ed it anyway! ;)
___________________
/ \ _
)""""\___ | - - - - - - - - - - | |_\____
)----| |\-| Vivacious Vixen-II |-/| | |\
)____|___|===========================| """|_)
`----` \| http://www.cris.com/~Vixy/|/"""""
"""|"""""""/"""\"""""""|"""
Vixy{nospam}@- `=++++=" "=++++=' -hot;mail.com
FCFc2wAC-D+dH-M++P++R+T+++W+Z++Sf++RLEaC++nd++e++h+i+p+sf+


Vixy

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Dec 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/12/97
to


Matthew Milam wrote in article <34902556...@snews.zippo.com>...
> . . . It is good the spam postings are

> not in this newsgroup, however i have questions for the moderators of
> this newsgroup which can be taken to email (For the heads of this
> newsgroup that are listening, email me).

Heads of AFF? Wooooww... someone is actually in charge here?


So when did it all change? ;)

===========================================================
Victry 'Vixy' Hyzenthlay

Matthew Milam

unread,
Dec 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/12/97
to

> ___________________
> / \ _
> )""""\___ | - - - - - - - - - - | |_\____
> )----| |\-| Vivacious Vixen-II |-/| | |\
> )____|___|===========================| """|_)
> `----` \| http://www.cris.com/~Vixy/|/"""""
> """|"""""""/"""\"""""""|"""
> Vixy{nospam}@- `=++++=" "=++++=' -hot;mail.com
>FCFc2wAC-D+dH-M++P++R+T+++W+Z++Sf++RLEaC++nd++e++h+i+p+sf+
>

Vixy, I would rather you emailed me this rather than bring it to the
group. The more you flame the more they ignore you (I wish i could say
the same for some who have replied and contributed after you). My
email is below, take it or leave it.

--Matthew

Matthew Milam

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Dec 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/12/97
to

On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:22:02 -0600, cal...@goodnet.com wrote:

>In article <348f645a...@news.psnw.com>,
> walk...@psnw.com (WalksFar) wrote:
>> It seems to me we are doing exactly what we should not be
>> doing. ConFurence is what you make of it. These attacks on Merlino
>> and ConFurence serve only to bring it down and destroy what the fans
>> enjoy most about anthropomorphism.
>
>CalAnim8r's post was in no way construable as an "attack". It was, in
>fact, the bald-faced truth.

The Truth in this case is truth of opinon. In which someone claims
that ones opinon is the actual truth (Example: My muck subject). Let
us understand that Mark Melino is only a human being who's opinon
about furry happens to be different from the rest. To target him for
this opinon or actions that are brought upon this opinon is not only
immoral, but wrong. If some wish not to start fights over the simple
things, why start with this?.

Yes, I understand the press was brought there, but so what?. Some of
the press understand that their's more to things than what's at
Confurence. There are other ways and things to look for in the fandom,
maybe that wasn't his idea in the first place, but others can address
the fact that sex isn't the furry fandom itslef. If those others
don't, then this war with Mr. Melino will contiune and will be given
the same Anti-Christ treatment as Bill Gates, The Chairman of
Netscape, and a cast of thousands who have a large effect on people.


>s for CF8, which I attended (as I attended
>CF4-7, and shall attend CF9), I personally was treated to the sight of
>someone in full-torso bondage gear, ball gag, and leash being "walked" by
>someone else.

That is their decision.

> Even in California, where I used to live, this sort of behavior --- in
>public --- is rare to the point where any "norm" would be left to assume
>they were "with the convention". Which, of course, they were.

But why should you fear for your life if you don't even do it?


>
> Back after CF7, there was a firestorm of controversy concerning similar
>behavior from some attendees. Mark Merlino's "policy" in response to this
>was contained in one line in the CF8 program book...which, of course, was
>only distributed *at* CF8. No policy on the matter was made public or
>solidified prior to this. Mark's policy was, simply, to "tone it down a
>bit". The result was that things got worse.

Some people don't listen, others do.

>This has been a steady trend
>for CF since CF4, and some would say earlier; a lax attitude towards lewd
>public behavior (a crime in most areas) has led to more blatant displays
>every following year, and now we literally have "leather bondage queens"
>strutting around as though they own the convention.

But isn't part of being furry more of a freedom to express yourslef


without the constraints that society brings. Or am i mistaken?

>


> As a result, ConFurence IS being damaged..

No, I think furries have lost their furryness and have returned to
humans. The result is this discussion.

>.many people will NOT attend
>because of this matter.

Many people don't accept different people, and often those same "many"
people are just as werid and out-of-whack as the very ones they fire
on.

>This is called "voting with your feet", which is


>what many diehard supporters of CF's lax attitude have suggested --- and
>yet, many of those same supporters seem to scream "fascist" or "Nazi"
>when someone DOES vote with their feet and dare to say why.

I would like to know the whole "voting with your feet" concept (Email
is below)

>*Exactly*


>this happened between Mike Curtis and CalAnim8r. Cal got squicked by a CF
>party, chose to stay away based on her experience, and Mike calls her a
>Nazi. I put this down to a momentary lapse on his part, because that
>*isn't* the Mike Curtis I know and admire.

We all have a dark side, even i do, and occasinally it slips out and
gets me to say things i don't want to say. Mike Curtis probably had
that moment.

>But there *are* a number who
>are quite free and regular in the dispensing of extremism to defend the
>indefensible.

How far does that go?


>
>> If one goes to ConFurence seeking
>> pornography, i am sure they will find it. If they go to meet friends
>> and enjoy themselves, I believe they will. If they go to learn
>> anthropomorphic art, costuming, animation, I KNOW they will!

I think you lost me here.

>>Certainly. Despite my experience with the leather lads, I truly enjoy CF
>and will continue to attend for as long as I can. This, however, is
>because I've been involved in the fandom long enough to be able to
>largely ignore just about anything I find offensive. I can take it with
>the requisite grain of salt because I've had time to get used to it.
>Newbies, by their very newness, have NOT have that time. It should
>surprise no one that a significant number of newcomers to the fandom, who
>find it via CF, may well flee it.

You never know.


>
>> We are who we are. Confurence has problems. Name a Fan
>> Convention that does NOT! That is best handled behind the scenes
>> taking the fan's interests and concerns into consideration.
>
>The problem here is that, after literally YEARS of agitation from fans on
>this matter, their interests and concerns are NOT being considered. At
>all. They are, in fact, being rebuffed as "hateful" by many, while the
>con staff themselves remain largely silent or quietly supportive of such
>activities.

The same thing can be said about issue lated to furry-realted topics.
Such as the mucking part, which i was extremely mad at when it turned
out the adminstartors of both of them i was on were corrupt, idiotic,
people who had a ton of Yesmen to back them up. Bringing this to AFF i
figured i could find many who had fallen under that trap. But it
seemed that flaming was the only response they could give (Due to the
extreme nature of the post, and the fact many censor the darkness).
I've given up on that, but i still mention it because simlar incidents
like this come about. It is also why i still am on this group (Even if
few have killfiles because they figure i'm stupid).


>
> Because CF is not addressing these concerns, the concerned are going
>elsewhere for their conventions where at all possible.

CF won't fix the problems because too many don't care or are afriad.
This is the problem with any group, when one doesn't speak out against
another in a line of people, trouble begins.

>>> We bring to conFurence our own perceptions and feelings. let us not poison
>> others because something does not particularly fit our "ways."
>
>Which is an attitude, quite frankly, that I have seen from *both* sides
>of the CF fence.

Which i belive isn't so bad. The question is, can the fandom make
others do what others do? and if so, why should they?

--Matthew

Vixy

unread,
Dec 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/12/97
to


Matthew Milam <mmi...@enteract.com> wrote in article <3490aa13...@snews.zippo.com>...

> Vixy, I would rather you emailed me this rather than bring it to the
> group. The more you flame the more they ignore you (I wish i could say
> the same for some who have replied and contributed after you). My
> email is below, take it or leave it.

'They', Mathew? Have you gerbils in your pocket? Flies
on your wall? I'm still waiting for Email from YOU. My addy
is in my sig and if ya can't figure it out through all the
anti-spam inserts, just Email me and I'll send it to you
directly. ;)

===========================================================
Victry 'Vixy' Hyzenthlay

WalksFar

unread,
Dec 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/12/97
to

On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:22:02 -0600, cal...@goodnet.com wrote:

>(snip)

>
> As a result, ConFurence IS being damaged...many people will NOT attend
>because of this matter. This is called "voting with your feet", which is


>what many diehard supporters of CF's lax attitude have suggested --- and
>yet, many of those same supporters seem to scream "fascist" or "Nazi"

>when someone DOES vote with their feet and dare to say why. *Exactly*


>this happened between Mike Curtis and CalAnim8r. Cal got squicked by a CF
>party, chose to stay away based on her experience, and Mike calls her a
>Nazi. I put this down to a momentary lapse on his part, because that

>*isn't* the Mike Curtis I know and admire. But there *are* a number who


>are quite free and regular in the dispensing of extremism to defend the
>indefensible.

>Certainly. Despite my experience with the leather lads, I truly enjoy CF


>and will continue to attend for as long as I can. This, however, is
>because I've been involved in the fandom long enough to be able to
>largely ignore just about anything I find offensive. I can take it with
>the requisite grain of salt because I've had time to get used to it.
>Newbies, by their very newness, have NOT have that time. It should
>surprise no one that a significant number of newcomers to the fandom, who
>find it via CF, may well flee it.

>The problem here is that, after literally YEARS of agitation from fans on


>this matter, their interests and concerns are NOT being considered. At
>all. They are, in fact, being rebuffed as "hateful" by many, while the
>con staff themselves remain largely silent or quietly supportive of such
>activities.
>

> Because CF is not addressing these concerns, the concerned are going

>elsewhere for their conventions where at all possible. ZonieCon,
>f'rinstance, which will be coming up next May, was made possible because
>of the niche created by CF's alienation of some 100+ California/Arizona
>furry fans. We are catering to that group, to provide them with a
>convention they don't have to cross the nation to get to. 100+ is a small
>fraction of CF's attendance, of course...but it is enough to be concerned
>about.

>Which is an attitude, quite frankly, that I have seen from *both* sides
>of the CF fence.
>
Your descriptions of what HAS occurred at ConFurence are
fairly on target. I have been disturned by some of the things I have
seen and heard. If it were not for the fact that some of the most
heated issues have been discussed, and hopefully dealt with, I would
not be considering attending. Because it looks like they ARE finally
being taken into consideration, I believe I may not be treated to some
of the lobby scenes i saw in the last two years. However, I am NOT
staying at the Buena Park Hotel, either. I have taken reservations
across the street just in case things are not "taken care of"
adequately . . . .

Matthew Milam

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Dec 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/12/97
to

Your email does not exist, it belongs to someone else. Get another
hotmail or Four11 or something then.

--Matthew

Wanderer

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Dec 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/12/97
to

Okay, *this* time, I respond (and Matthew, threatening someone with arrest
for wanting to bring you a dessert is *not* appropriate behaviour, no matter
what they told you at charm school. Miss Manners distinctly frowns upon
taking legal action against friendliness).
Matthew Milam wrote in message <3490ab7b...@snews.zippo.com>...

>On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:22:02 -0600, cal...@goodnet.com wrote:
>
>>In article <348f645a...@news.psnw.com>,
>> walk...@psnw.com (WalksFar) wrote:
>>> It seems to me we are doing exactly what we should not be
>>> doing. ConFurence is what you make of it. These attacks on Merlino
>>> and ConFurence serve only to bring it down and destroy what the fans
>>> enjoy most about anthropomorphism.
>>
>>CalAnim8r's post was in no way construable as an "attack". It was, in
>>fact, the bald-faced truth.
>
>The Truth in this case is truth of opinon. In which someone claims
>that ones opinon is the actual truth (Example: My muck subject). Let
>us understand that Mark Melino is only a human being who's opinon
>about furry happens to be different from the rest. To target him for
>this opinon or actions that are brought upon this opinon is not only
>immoral, but wrong. If some wish not to start fights over the simple
>things, why start with this?.
Matt, the truth being referred to is that there *was* a flier that
advertised a party where you could "Meet the Fandom", that there *was* an
unmarked portfolio loaded with R-rated pictures where minors could get at
them, that Mark Merlino *has* been reported as saying "Furry is sex" by many
separate individuals. Precisely what, in this chain of concrete facts, is
opinion?

>
>Yes, I understand the press was brought there, but so what?. Some of
>the press understand that their's more to things than what's at
>Confurence. There are other ways and things to look for in the fandom,
>maybe that wasn't his idea in the first place, but others can address
>the fact that sex isn't the furry fandom itslef. If those others
>don't, then this war with Mr. Melino will contiune and will be given
>the same Anti-Christ treatment as Bill Gates, The Chairman of
>Netscape, and a cast of thousands who have a large effect on people.
First off, the media reports whatever brings it the highest ratings. In
today's market, that's just economic self-preservation. Now, which of the
following taglines would *you*, speaking just for yourself, find more
interesting?:

1.) ... and, finally, a cartoon convention comes to town to celebrate
animals in animation.

2.) ... and up next: Convention Chaos as a hotel party becomes an orgy.
Trish MacNeil has more ...

Second, as to "others" trying to address the fact that sex isn't all there
is to furry fandom ... what the hoo-hah do you think CalAnim8r was getting
at? He simply has a problem with Merlino holding a "Meet the Fandom" party
and filling the room with sexpics and spooge art, while ignoring the rest of
the fandom.


>
>
>>s for CF8, which I attended (as I attended
>>CF4-7, and shall attend CF9), I personally was treated to the sight of
>>someone in full-torso bondage gear, ball gag, and leash being "walked" by
>>someone else.
>
>That is their decision.

True. Unfortunately, they chose to parade their decision in front of people
who had *not* asked to be invited into this couple's private activities or
expressed an interest in bondage. In addition, they, as CF attendees, drew
attention to something which had no discernible attachment to
anthropomorphic animals (i.e., the harness was neither sulky nor dog and the
bondage boy was not wearing a muzzle of either sort). This causes people to
wonder why the gathering is called ConFurence instead of ConFinement ... as
well as start wondering what we're hiding behind closed room doors.
Finally, if you were the manager of the hotel, would you like the idea of
renting out a highly profitable room to people that were scaring off your
guests?


>
>> Even in California, where I used to live, this sort of behavior --- in
>>public --- is rare to the point where any "norm" would be left to assume
>>they were "with the convention". Which, of course, they were.
>
>But why should you fear for your life if you don't even do it?

I didn't see any mention in this post of "fear for my life", Matt. But he
does fear for the fandom, if we keep having people at our conventions who'll
scare off any new recruits.

Pretend for one moment that you know absolutely nothing about a fandom based
on anthropomorphic animals, Matt. You've never even heard the word,
"anthropomorphic", applied to anything outside Art History 101. You get a
flier that invites you to visit a party to meet people in something called,
"Furry Fandom". Curious, you go to the party and find a table full of
unmarked portfolios. You open them out of curiousity and discover that in
each one of these books is a different collection of sex acts. Bondage,
discipline, homosexuality, oral sex, and so on. All performed by cartoon
animals with huge genitalia, some of them recognisably patterned after
children's cartoon characters. Now, assuming you had never heard of
anything called "furry fandom" until this time, what would you honestly
believe "furry fandom" to be about? Especially if a person comes over to
you, shows you yet another sexpic portfolio, and says, "This is furry
fandom"? (Which, according to another part of this thread, Merlino likes to
do.)


>>
>> Back after CF7, there was a firestorm of controversy concerning similar
>>behavior from some attendees. Mark Merlino's "policy" in response to this
>>was contained in one line in the CF8 program book...which, of course, was
>>only distributed *at* CF8. No policy on the matter was made public or
>>solidified prior to this. Mark's policy was, simply, to "tone it down a
>>bit". The result was that things got worse.
>
>Some people don't listen, others do.

Oh, they listened, Matt. But if you were doing something I objected to,
that you liked, and you knew I wasn't going to do anything but complain,
would you stop doing it?


>
>>This has been a steady trend
>>for CF since CF4, and some would say earlier; a lax attitude towards lewd
>>public behavior (a crime in most areas) has led to more blatant displays
>>every following year, and now we literally have "leather bondage queens"
>>strutting around as though they own the convention.
>
>But isn't part of being furry more of a freedom to express yourslef
>without the constraints that society brings. Or am i mistaken?

Yes, Matt, you are mistaken. Skritching, cuddling and so forth are
permissible *with consenting partners*. The laws of society, as with the
laws governing a pride, a pack or a pod, must be adhered to. Just because
we like anthro animals doesn't mean we can make love in the middle of a
hotel lobby or introduce a 10-year-old child to the cinematic glory of
"Debbie Does Dallas". We are neither above nor outside the law.


>
>>
>> As a result, ConFurence IS being damaged..
>
>No, I think furries have lost their furryness and have returned to
>humans. The result is this discussion.

This discussion, Matt, is about accountability. Some individuals are using
ConFurence as a smokescreen. Without being involved in the fandom itself,
they arrive, squick the Mundanes with bondage and leather, and send any
complainants to the CF staff before pulling up their tents and moving on.
This is all about accountability, theirs, Matt Merlino's and ConFurence's,
for the repercussions of their actions. And that's the same in human and
animal societies both.


>
>>.many people will NOT attend
>>because of this matter.
>
>Many people don't accept different people, and often those same "many"
>people are just as werid and out-of-whack as the very ones they fire
>on.

And a few of us are comparatively "plain vanilla". Are you saying
heterosexuals don't belong in this fandom? If so, may I ask what your
preference is?


>
>>This is called "voting with your feet", which is
>>what many diehard supporters of CF's lax attitude have suggested --- and
>>yet, many of those same supporters seem to scream "fascist" or "Nazi"
>>when someone DOES vote with their feet and dare to say why.
>
>I would like to know the whole "voting with your feet" concept (Email
>is below)

I'll explain it here for any others that might need it. "Voting with your
feet" is the kind of voting people do when they don't go to something.
Whether it's a convention, a ballgame, a movie, or a party, if they don't
like it, they go somewhere else. This is generally referred to as "walking
out", so the result is called, "voting with your feet". In money-driven
situations, it's also called "voting with your pocketbook".


>
>>*Exactly*
>>this happened between Mike Curtis and CalAnim8r. Cal got squicked by a CF
>>party, chose to stay away based on her experience, and Mike calls her a
>>Nazi. I put this down to a momentary lapse on his part, because that
>>*isn't* the Mike Curtis I know and admire.
>
>We all have a dark side, even i do, and occasinally it slips out and
>gets me to say things i don't want to say. Mike Curtis probably had
>that moment.

No comment.


>
>>But there *are* a number who
>>are quite free and regular in the dispensing of extremism to defend the
>>indefensible.
>
>How far does that go?

Extremism? By definition, to extremes, some ridiculous.


>>
>>> If one goes to ConFurence seeking
>>> pornography, i am sure they will find it. If they go to meet friends
>>> and enjoy themselves, I believe they will. If they go to learn
>>> anthropomorphic art, costuming, animation, I KNOW they will!
>
>I think you lost me here.

That poster, whose attribution you removed with the original quotelist, was
saying, "There's no problem. If CalAnim8r found porn, he must've been
looking for it in the first place. The entire problem is his. It has
nothing to do with ConFurence". (See also the line, "pay no attention to
the man behind the curtain" ...)


>
>>>Certainly. Despite my experience with the leather lads, I truly enjoy CF
>>and will continue to attend for as long as I can. This, however, is
>>because I've been involved in the fandom long enough to be able to
>>largely ignore just about anything I find offensive. I can take it with
>>the requisite grain of salt because I've had time to get used to it.
>>Newbies, by their very newness, have NOT have that time. It should
>>surprise no one that a significant number of newcomers to the fandom, who
>>find it via CF, may well flee it.
>
>You never know.

True. We'll attract a lot of people who want to be beaten up, chained down,
and given twenty lashes with a bullwhip before sex ...


>>
>>> We are who we are. Confurence has problems. Name a Fan
>>> Convention that does NOT! That is best handled behind the scenes
>>> taking the fan's interests and concerns into consideration.
>>
>>The problem here is that, after literally YEARS of agitation from fans on
>>this matter, their interests and concerns are NOT being considered. At
>>all. They are, in fact, being rebuffed as "hateful" by many, while the
>>con staff themselves remain largely silent or quietly supportive of such
>>activities.
>
>The same thing can be said about issue lated to furry-realted topics.
>Such as the mucking part, which i was extremely mad at when it turned
>out the adminstartors of both of them i was on were corrupt, idiotic,
>people who had a ton of Yesmen to back them up. Bringing this to AFF i
>figured i could find many who had fallen under that trap. But it
>seemed that flaming was the only response they could give (Due to the
>extreme nature of the post, and the fact many censor the darkness).
>I've given up on that, but i still mention it because simlar incidents
>like this come about. It is also why i still am on this group (Even if
>few have killfiles because they figure i'm stupid).

Matt, I say it again:
Take it to alt.fan.furry.mucks.
Take it to alt.fan.furry.mucks.
Take it to alt.fan.furry.mucks.
Take it to alt.fan.furry.mucks.

You have told us, over and over and over and *over* and OVER about your muck
problem. We can't do anything about it. Find someone who can. Quit
telling your story to people that can't help you with it.


>>
>> Because CF is not addressing these concerns, the concerned are going
>>elsewhere for their conventions where at all possible.
>
>CF won't fix the problems because too many don't care or are afriad.
>This is the problem with any group, when one doesn't speak out against
>another in a line of people, trouble begins.

Except for the fact that we've seen lots of people speak out on the subject
here. But, nah. That must just be an illusion. The post from CalAnim8r
that started this whole argument is a fiction caused by mass hysteria.
After all, it says something bad about ConFurence, and Matt says furry fans
won't say anything bad about anything connected with furry fandom. And
since Matt is the hero AntiCensor, champion of the free speech, destroyer of
oppressors everywhere who would cast down our beloved fandom into the pits
of despair ... well, he *must* be right, now, mustn't he?


>
>>>> We bring to conFurence our own perceptions and feelings. let us not
poison
>>> others because something does not particularly fit our "ways."
>>
>>Which is an attitude, quite frankly, that I have seen from *both* sides
>>of the CF fence.
>
>Which i belive isn't so bad. The question is, can the fandom make
>others do what others do? and if so, why should they?
>

Matt, please explain this one later. But for now, I'll answer based on my
own imperfect understanding of it:

Can the fandom control the actions of others? No, not really. Truly, only
individuals may control their own actions. Just as you have the freedom to
post here, no matter what you say you'll do to me if I threaten you with my
nefarious Desserts of Doom, which are no doubt biogenic weapons in disguise
... just as I have the freedom to say these ridiculous things in an effort
to provide irony ... just as Mark Merlino has the freedom to decide that sex
is the be-all and end-all of furry as far as he's concerned ... so others
must make their own decisions. Furry fandom can only attempt to associate
itself with the most positive images and connotations available, while
trying to avoid having hotel managers everywhere think we're porn pushers
and bondage fanatics. After all, just as those who practise such activities
are free to perform them in private (except in Texas, they still haven't
repealed that law), the hotel managers are free to refuse to rent space to
any convention which they feel would offend their guests. Now, please note
that this is not, classically speaking, censorship. This is free
enterprise. If the manager feels that the con would scare away more
customers than it would provide, then it is his duty to his employer to turn
us away.

Of course, if you're saying you have a place where we could hold CF10 that
you'll let us use for a reasonable price, well, that's different ... :)

Yours truly,

The ever-ironic, Matt-debating,

Wanderer****************'Where am I going?I don't quite know.
****************************'What does it matter where people go?
w00...@airmail.net '*****Down to the woods where the bluebells grow.
****************************Anywhere!Anywhere!Idon't know!

Allen Kitchen

unread,
Dec 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/12/97
to

> CalAnim8r's post was in no way construable as an "attack". It was, in

> fact, the bald-faced truth. As for CF8, which I attended (as I attended


> CF4-7, and shall attend CF9), I personally was treated to the sight of
> someone in full-torso bondage gear, ball gag, and leash being "walked" by
> someone else.
>

> In the main lobby, next to the elevators.

If my wife detects that post, I can kiss my trip
to CF9 goodbye. As I've said before, I'm not going to ram
my sexuality down anyone's eyesockets, and will appreciate
the same in return. I'm going to CF9 to have fun and meet
fellow furries. Not change my orientation, consider alternate
lifestyles (I'm a wolf! How alternate do you want??) or boff
people in the hallways.
I am trying to keep an open mind for this trip. But
all the talk is making me nervous.

> As a result, ConFurence IS being damaged...many people will NOT attend
> because of this matter. This is called "voting with your feet", which is


> what many diehard supporters of CF's lax attitude have suggested ---

I'm not easily offended. So if I return with a bad opinion
it will be justly earned. I shall be filing a report here on AFF on
my personal observations after the con.
But if people go out of their way to squick me, I will be
'voting with my feet' as well. I don't know one way or the other at
this point, as I've not gone to a con before (other than same lame
local SciFi cons.) I am trying to have no prejudices as I enter
the doors. I hope to have a lot of fun.

> Newbies, by their very newness, have NOT have that time. It should
> surprise no one that a significant number of newcomers to the fandom, who
> find it via CF, may well flee it.

I'm not a newbie. But I'm only active for 2 years, and never got
to go to CF before now. Nothing I see or experience at CF9 will cause
me to leave the fandom. Some things may cause me to abandon CF
as a routine adventure however...

Allen Kitchen (shockwave)
all...@blkbox.com
http://www.blkbox.com/~osprey/


peppe...@yahoo.com

unread,
Dec 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/12/97
to

In article <19971208052...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
cala...@aol.com (CalAnim8R) wrote:

> A Normal's Introduction to Furry
>
> I was at LosCon in Los Angeles just a few weeks ago. Browsing the party
> board, I noticed there was only one 'furry' party advertised; the one that was
> sponsored by ConFurence's Mark Merlino and Rod O'Riley. 'Food, Fun and
> Furries!' promised the flier. So I decided to take a look, to see what being
> furry is all about.

> The door to the party was closed, so I opened it and entered. I looked around
> the room. There was a table with pamphlets and publishings,along with binders


> of artwork by various popular furry artists. I love cartoons, let's open the
> books and see.

> Gaah! There's a lot of pornography and X-rated artwork in those books, like

> maybe 70%. Th