Zappa vs Steely Dan
JYOB
Frank mockingly sings "Rikki, don't lose that number" in a very sarcastic tone
of voice! What's the big idea, Frank? Steely Dan is probably in most of Zappa
fan's "Top 5" favorite groups!(Duz that make sense?) Plus, Frank always said he
NEVER listened to other groups' music so how would he know this song which had
been a popular tune in 1974. Why was Frank dissin' Steely Dan???
John Scialli
Frank liked what he'd heard of Steely Dan. He liked their precision.
He probably just wanted to piss someone off. Did it work?
Jon Naurin
>At one point during (I believe) the song "Dupree's Paradise" on YCDTOSA 2,
>Frank mockingly sings "Rikki, don't lose that number" in a very sarcastic tone
>of voice! What's the big idea, Frank? Steely Dan is probably in most of Zappa
>fan's "Top 5" favorite groups!(Duz that make sense?) Plus, Frank always said he
>NEVER listened to other groups' music so how would he know this song which had
>been a popular tune in 1974. Why was Frank dissin' Steely Dan???
I'm not sure he was dissing them - I've heard people say that FZ like SD, but
I've never heard him saying so myself. Also, I don't think Frank ever said
something as categorical as "NEVER listened to other groups' music". He often
said that he didn't listen to popular music, but that shouldn't be taken
literally. When on tour, he always brought a suitcase of cassettes for
recreational listening, and he admitted that some of them contained pop music.
Among the groups that I know he listened to were ZZ Top, Black Sabbath and
Queen.
- Jon
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OnTheCornr
>NEVER listened to other groups' music so how would he know this song which
>had been a popular tune in 1974.
Even if Zappa wasn't inclined to sit down and listen to current rock music for
entertainment, he could hardly help being exposed to it while out on tour--in
public places, on the tour bus, on the P.A. between acts at gigs. (Hey, I've
never intentionally listened to Fleetwood Mac in my life, so how come I know so
many of their goddam songs?) The context of the "Rikki" reference on YCDTOSA2
suggests that FZ heard the song repeatedly from a tape that belonged to Ruth
Underwood. On the same album FZ inserts the melody of War's "The World Is a
Ghetto" into his "Pygmy Twylyte" solo.
Vote for Miles,
ON THE CORNER
"Louee, louee!"--James Joyce, Finnegans Wake
Michael Gula
>
> JYOB writes:
>
> >At one point during (I believe) the song "Dupree's Paradise" on YCDTOSA 2,
> >Frank mockingly sings "Rikki, don't lose that number" in a very sarcastic tone
> >of voice! What's the big idea, Frank? Steely Dan is probably in most of Zappa
> >NEVER listened to other groups' music so how would he know this song which had
>
> I'm not sure he was dissing them - I've heard people say that FZ like SD, but
> I've never heard him saying so myself. Also, I don't think Frank ever said
> something as categorical as "NEVER listened to other groups' music". He often
> said that he didn't listen to popular music, but that shouldn't be taken
> literally. When on tour, he always brought a suitcase of cassettes for
> recreational listening, and he admitted that some of them contained pop music.
> Among the groups that I know he listened to were ZZ Top, Black Sabbath and
> Queen.
>
The booklet that comes with "Citizen Steely Dan" (boxed set)
contains a FZ quote: "Downer Surrealism". Can anyone identify the
source?
--
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To reply remove MORESPAM from the address.
Franz Fuchs
>At one point during (I believe) the song "Dupree's Paradise" on YCDTOSA 2,
>Frank mockingly sings "Rikki, don't lose that number" in a very sarcastic tone
>of voice! What's the big idea, Frank? Steely Dan is probably in most of Zappa
>fan's "Top 5" favorite groups!(Duz that make sense?)
I think that the Steely Dan masterminds D.Fagen and W. Becker have
more in common with FZ than a first glance would reveal, e.g. their
preference for craft and "perfect" production.
I happen to like all SD studio albums except "Gaucho". Although many
people consider "Aja" to be their best record, IMO it already shows
that at that point their sound had become very slick - and I can't
manage to take "Gaucho" in one listen because that would be too much
for me :-) Somehow they lost themselves in that tiresome "cocktail
jazz".
----------
A little digression: Becker/Fagen interview from Musician (1980):
MUSICIAN: How do you feel about modern improvisational music that
diverges from that structure? Music that's come after the religious
and political saxophoning of the '60s - like The Art Ensemble, Cecil
Taylor, Anthony Braxton, etc.?
BECKER: I don't like any of it. I'd like to think that I'm
open-minded, but nothing could be further from the truth.
FAGEN: We're real conservatives.
MUSICIAN: A post-modernist like Braxton uses many different kinds of
structures. He's a structuralist of sorts, though maybe not in the
mode of traditional song form.
BECKER: But he can't even play, so what does it matter? I can't figure
it out. He sounds like a guy who has no tone, plays outta tune, and I
just don't know why he's playing what he's playing. Maybe I just heard
the wrong records. Now Sam Rivers - the first album I heard of his
sounded very interesting to me, but lately he sounds exactly like
Braxton.
----------
As a Braxton acolyte I felt a bit annoyed at these remarks. Anthony
Braxton "can't even play"? That's ridiculous! :-)
But to see it the other way - "Aja" (to a less extent) and "Gaucho"
sound exactly like their understanding of jazz history suggests. Then,
of course, (following Becker's logic) LA studio musicianship is the
measure of all things...
(In 1994 Mike Keneally did an article for a "Guitar Player" 70ies
special, where he listed some of his favourite guitar moments. Among
others he mentioned the unisono guitar part of "Reelin' In The
Years".)
PS: Isn't "Wild Love" from SY said to have Steely Dan influences in
it?
Greetings
Franz
--
franz...@magnet.at
Patrick Neve
> At one point during (I believe) the song "Dupree's Paradise" on YCDTOSA 2,
> Frank mockingly sings "Rikki, don't lose that number" in a very sarcastic tone
> of voice! What's the big idea, Frank? Steely Dan is probably in most of Zappa
> fan's "Top 5" favorite groups!(Duz that make sense?) Plus, Frank always said he
> NEVER listened to other groups' music so how would he know this song which had
> been a popular tune in 1974. Why was Frank dissin' Steely Dan???
Frank was an equal opportunity disser. It should be clear that just
because FZ mocked something or somebody didn't mean there wasn't also some
level of respect. Take for isntance his love/hate relationship with sappy
love songs. Tribute or parody? I say both. Who knows what triggered
"Rikki" that night.. maybe someone requested Steely Dan, or they heard it
on the radio and had a laugh.. personally, and I am a huge fan, that's my
least favorite Steely Dan song by a long shot.
Patrick Neve
> JYOB writes:
>
> >At one point during (I believe) the song "Dupree's Paradise" on YCDTOSA 2,
> >Frank mockingly sings "Rikki, don't lose that number" in a very sarcastic tone
> >of voice! What's the big idea, Frank? Steely Dan is probably in most of Zappa
> >fan's "Top 5" favorite groups!(Duz that make sense?) Plus, Frank always said he
> >NEVER listened to other groups' music so how would he know this song which had
> >been a popular tune in 1974. Why was Frank dissin' Steely Dan???
>
> I'm not sure he was dissing them - I've heard people say that FZ like SD, but
> I've never heard him saying so myself.
In the booklet for the Citizen Steely Dan box set, Frank is quoted as
referring to SD as "downer surrealism".
Patrick Neve
> >Plus, Frank always said he
> >NEVER listened to other groups' music so how would he know this song which
> >had been a popular tune in 1974.
>
> Even if Zappa wasn't inclined to sit down and listen to current rock music for
> entertainment, he could hardly help being exposed to it while out on tour--in
> public places, on the tour bus, on the P.A. between acts at gigs. (Hey, I've
> never intentionally listened to Fleetwood Mac in my life, so how come I know so
> many of their goddam songs?) The context of the "Rikki" reference on YCDTOSA2
> suggests that FZ heard the song repeatedly from a tape that belonged to Ruth
> Underwood.
No, it's: "Hey Ruth, do you have any Suzy Quattro cassettes?"
> On the same album FZ inserts the melody of War's "The World Is a
> Ghetto" into his "Pygmy Twylyte" solo.
I never heard that! Haveta go back and find out.. where exactly?
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Michael Gula
> PS: Isn't "Wild Love" from SY said to have Steely Dan influences in
> it?
>
I believe Ben Watson made that claim, but I'm unable to hear it.
Perhaps he's referring to the close group vocal harmonies, which
certainly didn't originate with Steely Dan.
Michael Gula
>
> At one point during (I believe) the song "Dupree's Paradise" on YCDTOSA 2,
> Frank mockingly sings "Rikki, don't lose that number" in a very sarcastic tone
> of voice! What's the big idea, Frank? Steely Dan is probably in most of Zappa
> NEVER listened to other groups' music so how would he know this song which had
He probably had the same problem with Steely Dan that I do.
So often their lyrics lapse into smut.
Charles Ulrich
--Charles
Jon Naurin
>Speaking of Steely Dan, link them to FZ.
With musicians? Otherwise, William S Burroughs is a convenient way.
Michael Gula
>
> Speaking of Steely Dan, link them to FZ.
>
That's too easy.
Michael Gula
>
> Charles Ulrich writes:
>
> >Speaking of Steely Dan, link them to FZ.
>
>
Wasn't Roger Nichols (engineer) one of Zappa's high school
buddies?
Jack P. Armstrong
>> Frank mockingly sings "Rikki, don't lose that number" in a very sarcastic
>tone
>> of voice! What's the big idea, Frank? Steely Dan is probably in most of
>Zappa
>> fan's "Top 5" favorite groups!(Duz that make sense?) Plus, Frank always
>said he
>> NEVER listened to other groups' music so how would he know this song which
>had
>> been a popular tune in 1974. Why was Frank dissin' Steely Dan???
>
>He probably had the same problem with Steely Dan that I do.
>
>So often their lyrics lapse into smut.
I can't stand sexually oriented lyrics!
But hey what do you expect from a band who got their name from a milk-squirting
dildo?
- - - - - - -
Jody B. aka Jack P. Armstrong
"We're going back after I get my chocolate milkshake." - Steve Knight
"I play the drums so loud I break all the heads..." - Robert Wyatt
Jack P. Armstrong
>
>
Steely Dan -> Steve Gadd -> "Steve Gadd's Clone" FZ
Patrick Neve
> Speaking of Steely Dan, link them to FZ.
Too easy, Charles. I count 11 musician connections alone.
Charles Ulrich
<Pine.GSO.3.96.990613...@darkwing.uoregon.edu>, Patrick
Neve <sp...@darkwing.uoregon.edu> wrote:
I was thinking of Johnny Rotella. Who else?
--Charles
Patrick Neve
> In article
> <Pine.GSO.3.96.990613...@darkwing.uoregon.edu>, Patrick
> Neve <sp...@darkwing.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 13 Jun 1999, Charles Ulrich wrote:
> >
> > > Speaking of Steely Dan, link them to FZ.
> >
> > Too easy, Charles. I count 11 musician connections alone.
>
> I was thinking of Johnny Rotella. Who else?
>
> --Charles
1. Johnny Rotella
2. Ronnie Cuber
3. Wayne Shorter (I might be wrong but didn't he sit in with the Mothers?)
4. Paul Humphrey
5. Randy Brecker
6. Michael Brecker
7. Steve Gadd (or at least his clone)
8. Howard Kaylan
9. Mark Volman
10. Ernie Watts
11. Jim Gordon
These all appear on "Citizen Steely Dan", by the way.
Bill
Michael Brecker OR Randy Brecker OR Ronnie Cuber
OR Wilton Felder -> FZ
"Jack P. Armstrong" wrote:
>
> >Speaking of Steely Dan, link them to FZ.
> >
> >
>
Patrick Neve
> SD -> Jim Gordon OR Victor Feldman OR Ernie Watts OR
> Michael Brecker OR Randy Brecker OR Ronnie Cuber
> OR Wilton Felder -> FZ
>
What did Victor Feldman or Wilton Felder do with Frank?
yu14...@yorku.ca
spake thusly:
>Speaking of Steely Dan, link them to FZ.
>
>--Charles
Flo and Edi (? sorry folks, not sure on spelling or names) played with
the Mothers and also sang backups on the original version of
Everyone's gone to the movies, which is on the Citizen Steely Dan box
set.
Collin
Bill
Felder - Ponty's King Kong
Feldman - Lumpy Gravy
Michael Pierry
OnTheCornr wrote:
>
> On the same album FZ inserts the melody of War's "The World Is a
> Ghetto" into his "Pygmy Twylyte" solo.
>
That's a cool song. Is that the song that has the same verse chord
progression as "Black Napkins"? That ol' C#m7 to Dmaj7 thang?
OnTheCornr
> The context of the "Rikki" reference on YCDTOSA2
>> suggests that FZ heard the song repeatedly from a tape that belonged to
>Ruth
>> Underwood.
>
>No, it's: "Hey Ruth, do you have any Suzy Quattro cassettes?"
That's exactly what I meant by "context." The "Rikki" quote comes directly
between the "Shut that tape recorder off!" bit and the above reference to
Ruth's cassettes. It sounds to me like that whole passage is about Ruth
playing her music too loud in the hotel.
>> On the same album FZ inserts the melody of War's "The World Is a
>> Ghetto" into his "Pygmy Twylyte" solo.
>
>I never heard that! Haveta go back and find out.. where exactly?
It starts at 5:35 (on the old version of the CD, anyway).
Patrick Neve
Ooooh yeah....
So that brings the number of musicians who have worked with both Zappa and
Steely Dan to 13.
John
himself?
john m.
n.p. Norville Flatfields' Spontaneous Music Factory----- Whippety Fling
Flong live, 99
Bengt Jönsson
>
> I'm not sure he was dissing them - I've heard people say that FZ like SD,
but
> I've never heard him saying so myself. Also, I don't think Frank ever
said
> something as categorical as "NEVER listened to other groups' music". He
often
> said that he didn't listen to popular music, but that shouldn't be taken
> literally. When on tour, he always brought a suitcase of cassettes for
> recreational listening, and he admitted that some of them contained pop
music.
> Among the groups that I know he listened to were ZZ Top, Black Sabbath
and
> Queen.
>
Just a note: Before the concert in Lund 1988 while we were waiting for FZ,
among groups that could be heard from the amplifiers was Steely Dan. A
choice by FZ?. Probably not.
dave
fun of. Up there with Air Supply and PETER FRAMPTON!!!!!
dave
Patrick Neve
> I think steely dan is definitely one of my top five favorite bands to mkae
> fun of. Up there with Air Supply and PETER FRAMPTON!!!!!
>
> -dave
Hey man, don't be knockin' Air Supply.
Here I am,
-Patrick