Short comment on Schenkel's art work
It Never Entered My Mind
of the 90's, but I think I need to come clean on my point of view.
First, the Playground Psychotics "artwork" is not too bad...one
gives it the benefit of the doubt, given that it's from old
recordings, and that several tracks are live recordings of
conversations between band members recorded on a Uher microphone or
what not. "B"
We then had the Ahead of their Time. The cover isn't too bad, but
inside the confused and quid pro quo organization of the numbers,
musicians, and other informations is kinda lame. It's really
teenager-ish in the worst sense. B-"
Then, we had Cheap Thrils, which is Playground Psychotics Part II in
terms of artwork. Geez, Fuckin' lame shit scribbling in pink ... and
the scribblings are not even cool ...they depict nonsense in the
worst sense of the word, as well. I dunno about the nude woman that
a person said to be present in that CD, cause I refused to buy into
this nth compilation from Ryko. "C-"
Next, Strictly Genteel wasn't that impressive as a cover...I don't
know if CS was responsible for doing that title, though. It's not
cool, but not lame...it's just a bit un-nerving to look at. "C+"
Finally, I was disappointed with the Best Band You Never Heard
cover. It's kinda cool, but gets about a "B" in terms of a mark,
IMO. Really lame on the condition that it's compared to the amateur
photo shot of Zappa's 88 Band on stage...with the lights and colors
overheard, etc...and the glowish neon title "Best Band" "C+"
Those are the negative aspects I could think of.
On the other hand, there's plenty of graphic art stuff I agree with
completely, such as the cover art on the CD's .... bowler hat, out
takes of art incorporated inside the 1995 issues, etc. The
mono-colored purple CD covers of the 1991 Ryko issues are also
enjoyable...as good as the multi-colored ones of 1995, in an
artistic sense.
Also, I really enjoy the art work from other artists, such as Lost
Episodes, which features the mouse-pixel-computer-Paintbrush type of
design, (which I take as a bit of a parody of home-made computer
art). I'd give it a "B+" It's talented and imaginative, as is the
case with Make a Jazz Noise Here....both get an "A"...as is the case
with Zappa's Universe Tribute on Verve.
Unlike most people here, I actually enjoy and "endorse " the YCDTOSA
art work. It's simply, and color-coded for memory...and that's what
was needed, givem the complexity of the contents: splices, tours
intermixed, group lineup variations, etc. "A-"
The Broadway the Hard Way art...really cool. An "A" just for the
balls to have shown Zappa seated with the Reagan quote on the wall,
the mayo in a jar, and all that...not to mention the cheap pink
stereo that simbolizes equally cheap and "pink" or "homosexual"
music that permeated the air waves in the 70's and 80's, IMO.
As for the 70's covers, almost all of them are mesmerizing and
sensational, IMO...the Roxy-young lady on stage, or spigots of Waka
Jawaka, the shell-shock art of Uncle Meat, and others..are great.
The Tinseltown cover reminiscint of Tod Browning's Freaks is
fabulous as well...cool, and it ties in the United Mutations, and
the Zappa's conceptual continuity, etc. All "A's" as far as I can
remember.
I have mixed feelings about Yellow Shark...it shows a dying Zappa,
and that's quite shocking to the teenage consumer. I don't know if
they are able to handle it, quite frankly. At least it was truthful,
and the accompanying booklet was well made. For the truth and
booklet, I'd give it an "A".
Basically, where I'm getting at is that Cal Schenkel seems to be
running out of steam in the 90's in terms of Zappa artwork, IMO. I
don't mean to suggest that someone else should be doing the covers,
or that old promo pix should be recycled even more (e.g. Strictly
Commercial CD taken from photo shoot as per Rolling Stone magazine,
I think) etc. It just seems that CS doesn't have the concentration
that expected, IMO.
Even the artwork for the Bootlegs sanctioned by the Trust Box 1
mainly, and some of Box 2, are really cool, such as As an Am, and
many others!!!
What's up with this shit?
I think CS should really get a grip and start focusing on doing
more convincing work!!!
Or is this lame art a criticism of the lame way Gail Zappa handles
business relations, such as former musicians and of course,
grass-roots level fans and such?!
More and more I think the art isn't sincere...it's a criticism of
GZ's lameness!!
Helios66
My Mind) wrote:
>I don't wanna attack Cal Schenkel's art works as of late;
Hey! art critic, Mr. Schenkel has to make money, and as long as the
music on the cds are worthwhile, who gives a shit.
Your friend,
Helios66
It Never Entered My Mind
wrote:
>>I don't wanna attack Cal Schenkel's art works as of late;
>
>Hey! art critic, Mr. Schenkel has to make money, and as long as the
>music on the cds are worthwhile, who gives a shit.
>
> Your friend,
> Helios66
I don't agree.
When I buy a CD, I want the art work to make sense, either in a
profound sense, or superficial sense. The former in terms of
politics, sociology, economy, etc; the latter as part of the FZ
conceptual continuity.
e.g. Uncle Meat's X-Ray's of teeth a metaphor for the analysis and
stripping of sentimentality from sex, as per the Sexual Revolution,
as shown by the chick stepping in the shower with Don Preston
totally nude and getting washed with a hamburger..without
manifesting an excessive erotic response, etc. etc. although on the
CD, she does say "I'm getting hot" and Zappa gets hot from sticks on
a pool or billiard table or what not. i.e.. the matter is x-rayed as
are the teeth...it's analyzed. That's on a profound level, that's a
bit ridiculous an redundant, of course...but at least it's there.
Zappa knew that cover art served a purpose: to entertain the
buyer/fanatic of the music, and also get the bucks rolling in for
the musician; i.e. FZ himself.
Michael Pierry
>
>
> We then had the Ahead of their Time. The cover isn't too bad, but
> inside the confused and quid pro quo organization of the numbers,
> musicians, and other informations is kinda lame. It's really
> teenager-ish in the worst sense. B-"
I couldn't disagree more! The artwork and layout for that CD is gorgeous.
>
> Finally, I was disappointed with the Best Band You Never Heard
> cover. It's kinda cool, but gets about a "B" in terms of a mark,
> IMO. Really lame on the condition that it's compared to the amateur
> photo shot of Zappa's 88 Band on stage...with the lights and colors
> overheard, etc...and the glowish neon title "Best Band" "C+"
No speak English you good. I understand good not you.
>
> Basically, where I'm getting at is that Cal Schenkel seems to be
> running out of steam in the 90's in terms of Zappa artwork, IMO.
Do not underestimate Mr. Schenkel.
>
> Even the artwork for the Bootlegs sanctioned by the Trust Box 1
> mainly, and some of Box 2, are really cool, such as As an Am, and
> many others!!!
"Trust Box"? I assume you mean Beat the Boots? Those are the original
artwork from the old bootleg Lp's. A few of the BTB2 titles have nice covers.
But they don't compare with any of Cal's masterpieces.
>
> What's up with this shit?
I don't know, Miggy. What's up with you and yours?
>
>
> Or is this lame art a criticism of the lame way Gail Zappa handles
> business relations, such as former musicians and of course,
> grass-roots level fans and such?!
>
> More and more I think the art isn't sincere...it's a criticism of
> GZ's lameness!!
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. I'm serious. I really
can't think of a dumber idea than the one expressed directly above. Did you
steal it from Dan Quayle, or what?
Patrick Neve
> I don't wanna attack Cal Schenkel's art works as of late; i.e. those
> of the 90's, but I think I need to come clean on my point of view.
>
> First, the Playground Psychotics "artwork" is not too bad...one
> gives it the benefit of the doubt, given that it's from old
> recordings, and that several tracks are live recordings of
> conversations between band members recorded on a Uher microphone or
> what not. "B"
It's actually art from an old Fillmore poster, so it shouldn't be
classified strictly as 90's art.
> Then, we had Cheap Thrils, which is Playground Psychotics Part II in
> terms of artwork. Geez, Fuckin' lame shit scribbling in pink ...
I like it.. my only complaint might be that I haven't got the cover back
from Cal yet, but on second thought I think I'll bite my tongue, because
good things come to those who wait.
As for the rest of your gradiings, I can only say I disagree completely
with the scale. There are some Calvin covers I like better than others,
but overall I just like what he does, so the old grade letter system just
doesn't apply. Calvin's just got a certain style, and you either like or
or ya don't. I think it's not only beautiful but important to the musical
works. It playfully touches on conceptual clues as well as its own
references. It's colorful, zany, busy, and usually packed with
information.. not unlike Frank's music, which is why they were the perfect
match, and in some ways still are. It's a classic lineup and we as Zappa
fans are lucky to still have Cal doing the covers.
-splat
Paul Hinrichs
>On Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:56:21 GMT, Heli...@echoroom.com (Helios66)
>wrote:
>>>I don't wanna attack Cal Schenkel's art works as of late;
>>
>>Hey! art critic, Mr. Schenkel has to make money, and as long as the
>>music on the cds are worthwhile, who gives a shit.
>>
>> Your friend,
>> Helios66
>I don't agree.
>When I buy a CD, I want the art work to make sense, either in a
>profound sense, or superficial sense. The former in terms of
>politics, sociology, economy, etc; the latter as part of the FZ
>conceptual continuity.
Same here - I demand that of any CD I buy, otherwise I just steal
them.
It Never Entered My Mind
Hinrichs) wrote:
>>>>I don't wanna attack Cal Schenkel's art works as of late;
>>>
>>>Hey! art critic, Mr. Schenkel has to make money, and as long as the
>>>music on the cds are worthwhile, who gives a shit.
>>>
>>> Your friend,
>>> Helios66
>
>>I don't agree.
>
>>When I buy a CD, I want the art work to make sense, either in a
>>profound sense, or superficial sense. The former in terms of
>>politics, sociology, economy, etc; the latter as part of the FZ
>>conceptual continuity.
>
>Same here - I demand that of any CD I buy, otherwise I just steal
>them.
>
Getting some clues from PAPA?
It Never Entered My Mind
<sp...@darkwing.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>> First, the Playground Psychotics "artwork" is not too bad...one
>> gives it the benefit of the doubt, given that it's from old
>> recordings, and that several tracks are live recordings of
>> conversations between band members recorded on a Uher microphone or
>> what not. "B"
>
>It's actually art from an old Fillmore poster, so it shouldn't be
>classified strictly as 90's art.
Actually, only SOME of the Ryko release was already done. CS had to
adapt the existing stuff to the CD format, and fill in more details,
such as track #, time, song titles, etc.
>> Then, we had Cheap Thrils, which is Playground Psychotics Part II in
>> terms of artwork. Geez, Fuckin' lame shit scribbling in pink ...
>
>I like it.. my only complaint might be that I haven't got the cover back
>from Cal yet, but on second thought I think I'll bite my tongue, because
>good things come to those who wait.
I guess that proverb motivates the Barking Pumpkin web merchandise
operation, according to reports...some people waiting for years on
end. I wonder if GZ will be offering them a Cadillac or something
for their w8ing.
>As for the rest of your gradiings, I can only say I disagree completely
>with the scale.
No problem with that. However, I have to be extra-careful in grading
70's covers, because I don't even know for sure that CS did even
HALF of 'em. Overnight Sensation was not his work, nor was the cover
of Weasels Ripped my Flesh. Absolutely Free and/or Freak Out was
Zappa himself doing it, applying his greeting or wishing card
professional experience to the album cover, as well as the entire
spectrum of his own (FZ's) talents music and non-musical (graphical,
business, etc.)
Make a Jazz Noise Here of course was not CS, nor was Man From
Utopia.
The above are all excellent.
From the above, I guess CS's standing might be inflated among fans,
insofar as they might assume (wrongly) that CS did the covers of all
Zappa's albums from 1968 to 1998.
Where is everybody else? The other art designers? I wouldn't
discount the possibility that CS is getting a free ride
here...getting the contract without competition from all the other
artists who gave their input and have covers that Ryko naturally
released as part of Zappa's albums over the span of his career.
But I need more information...and I might have to fine-tune the
above analysis. By all means, correct my wrong information if any.
Chris Ekman
design of Strictly Genteel, The Lost Episodes, Make a Jazz Noise Here,
Zappa's Universe, the YCDTOSA series, Broadway the Hard Way, Tinseltown
Rebellion, Waka/Jawaka, or The Yellow Shark.
Also, I don't think the use of pink in the Broadway booklet had anything to
do with homosexuality- it's just a reference to Don Johnson 80's pastel
fashion.
I don't have the strength just now to deal with the rest of it.
Chris Ekman
Working...@worldnet.att.net
"It's hard to work with a paranoid psychotic who suffers amnesia spells."
"True. But it beats retail."
--Evan Dorkin's Hectic Planet
AJ Wilkes
: > terms of artwork. Geez, Fuckin' lame shit scribbling in pink ...
: I like it.. my only complaint might be that I haven't got the cover back
: from Cal yet, but on second thought I think I'll bite my tongue, because
: good things come to those who wait.
P'raps Cal thinks the same as INEMM - that's why he's 'recalled' them all.
:)
-jk-
AJ Wilkes
: From the above, I guess CS's standing might be inflated among fans,
: insofar as they might assume (wrongly) that CS did the covers of all
: Zappa's albums from 1968 to 1998.
I don't think that's true at all. CS's work is very distinctive and
recognisable, most people can spot a Schenkel. I haven't counted, but I
doubt CS did even a QUARTER of the album covers.
-jk-
Michael Pierry
>
> From the above, I guess CS's standing might be inflated among fans,
> insofar as they might assume (wrongly) that CS did the covers of all
> Zappa's albums from 1968 to 1998.
The following records contain the art and/or design work of Cal Schenkel:
We're Only In It For the Money
Lumpy Gravy
Cruisin' With Ruben & the Jets
Uncle Meat
Hot Rats
Burnt Weeny Sandwich
Chunga's Revenge
Fillmore East, June 1971
200 Motels*
Just Another Band From L.A.
Waka/Jawaka
The Grand Wazoo
Zoot Allures
Bongo Fury
One Size Fits All
Roxy & Elsewhere
Apostrophe(')
Over-nite Sensation*
Tinseltown Rebellion
The Best Band You Never Heard In Your Life ('95 edition)
Playground Psychotics
Ahead of Their Time
Does Humor Belong In Music?
(this list is based on album credits)
Take a look at these albums, and just try, just TRY and tell me that Cal
Schenkel is overrated. On the contrary, these are some of the best album
covers IN THE KNOWN UNIVERSE.
*Cover art by Dave McMacken, inside by Cal Schenkel.
>
> Where is everybody else? The other art designers? I wouldn't
> discount the possibility that CS is getting a free ride
> here...getting the contract without competition from all the other
> artists who gave their input and have covers that Ryko naturally
> released as part of Zappa's albums over the span of his career.
I don't even understand what the above paragraph is getting at. Where is
everybody else? I don't know, wherever they are, I guess. You're a wacky
guy, Miguel.
For the record (again) here are the albums in which Cal Schenkel (according to
the album notes) played no part:
Have I Offended Someone?
Zappa In New York
Weasels Ripped My Flesh
Läther
Frank Zappa Plays the Music of Frank Zappa
The Lost Episodes
Civilization, Phaze III
The Yellow Shark
Make A Jazz Noise Here
Broadway the Hard Way
You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore, Vol. 1-6
Guitar
Jazz From Hell
Frank Zappa Meets the Mothers of Prevention
Francesco Zappa
Thing-Fish (?)
Them Or Us
London Symphony Orchestra Vols. 1 & 2
Baby Snakes
The Man From Utopia
Ship Arriving Too Late To Save A Drowning Witch
You Are What You Is
Shut Up 'N Play Yer Guitar
Sheik Yerbouti
Studio Tan
Sleep Dirt
Orchestral Favorites
Joe's Garage
Freak Out! (which was not designed by FZ, BTW)
Absolutely Free
(anything I missed?)
As you can see, amongst these are albums released as recently as last year and
goes all the way back to the first album, so the comment about "where are the
others", etc., is complete nonsense. I know this is overkill, but I got
carried away, sue me.
John Brower
worked on and which he did not.
My guess is that the regulars are aware.
From your tone, I don't think that you are being a smartass or
antagonistic.
For me, Cal is a very appropriate choice. He has involvement going back
to the 1960s (was WOIIFTM the first?). Obviously, Frank admired his
work enough to keep up the relationship. Cal has done art in a variety
of mediums, not just his cartoonish drawings. The busy (even messy),
information-packed, odd and non-commercial look is a perfect compliment
to the music. I believe Frank Zappa has shown a preference for
cartoonish art from the beginning.
I, for one, am happy to see Cal Schenkel's art continue to adorn FZ
product. To simply package it with photographs or other spiffy art
direction would render it no different than anyone else's work in
appearance.
Millard Isobar
It Never Entered My Mind
>: > Then, we had Cheap Thrils, which is Playground Psychotics Part II in
>: > terms of artwork. Geez, Fuckin' lame shit scribbling in pink ...
>
>: I like it.. my only complaint might be that I haven't got the cover back
>: from Cal yet, but on second thought I think I'll bite my tongue, because
>: good things come to those who wait.
>
>P'raps Cal thinks the same as INEMM - that's why he's 'recalled' them all.
How are they recalled? Is there a PO BOX?
AJ Wilkes
: How are they recalled? Is there a PO BOX?
A few people sent Cal their Cheap Thrills booklets to be further defaced in
the Schenkular style. I don't think any have been sent back yet, but CS is a
busy man - what with all the new releases and all - and I'm sure we'll get
them returned with all manner of obscene doodles and commentations.
-jk-
JWB
>> terms of artwork. Geez, Fuckin' lame shit scribbling in pink ...
Cal is an amazing artist and much of his artwork is obviously not intended
to be pretty to the eyes.
Maybe when Cal returns to the newsgroup shortly you can ask him in person
why his artwork is so bad.
--
John W. Busher
muds...@ptdprolog.net
Patrick Neve
Oh yeah, I have no doubt at all. I did a little exchange with him once
and although my return was a long time comin', it was more than worth the
wait.
It Never Entered My Mind
wrote:
>>> Then, we had Cheap Thrils, which is Playground Psychotics Part II in
>>> terms of artwork. Geez, Fuckin' lame shit scribbling in pink ...
>
>Cal is an amazing artist and much of his artwork is obviously not intended
>to be pretty to the eyes.
>
>Maybe when Cal returns to the newsgroup shortly you can ask him in person
>why his artwork is so bad.
Not likely. It might be mistinterpreted as a personal attack, which
isn't the point that I wanted to make...he got a contract, the dough
is rolling in, the legend is happy, great. I wouldn't want to spoil
his day, for that matter. :)
It Never Entered My Mind
<Working...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Miguel, I don't believe that Cal had anything to do with the artwork or
>design of Strictly Genteel, The Lost Episodes, Make a Jazz Noise Here,
>Zappa's Universe, the YCDTOSA series, Broadway the Hard Way, Tinseltown
>Rebellion, Waka/Jawaka, or The Yellow Shark.
Can anyone come up with the exact listing of Schenkel's
contributions?
I think there should be a section in the FAQ dealing with who
designed what among Zappa's close to 100 albums. Also, the bootleg
artwork (BTB series) is cool in many instances, but in almost every
occasion I don't think that names will pop up due to their illegal
nature (the smelly sock graphic excepted - 'Tis the Season to be
Jelly.)
It Never Entered My Mind
Brower) wrote:
>For me, Cal is a very appropriate choice. He has involvement going back
>to the 1960s (was WOIIFTM the first?). Obviously, Frank admired his
>work enough to keep up the relationship.
I was criticizing the "free ride" that CS apparently is
enjoying...isn't an artist expected to keep up his chops and
outperform competitors, to gain the contract for the new albums.
I'm sure there are graphic artists who are struggling out there in
the world, and similarly to the Mike Barnicle incident ( with much
imagination, though) there's the support due to the "old days" ;
i.e. I hung around with FZ, I knew him, I was his friend, I made
many albums covers, cogito ergo sum I deserve to do the new album
artwork. What about competition? What about other atists proposing
their portfolios to Ryko or GZ ? Suggesting ideas?
It's a free ride to get the contract on account of "da old days" ...
rather than to impress the people and outperform the competition,
which is, by the way, the American way. The lowest bidder, the
better product is expected to win.
To give a free ride is defeating to the American way of doing
business.
I'm not saying that CS actually got a free ride this time, but in a
some ways, it could be viewed as such.
I'm not debating the past quality of the album art work...it's
great. But th
> To simply package it with photographs or other spiffy art
>direction would render it no different than anyone else's work in
>appearance.
Agreed. Much album art today is really an exercise in lameness,
IMO. But there are a few exceptions, here and there. e.g. the new
Slayer album, or Aqua's album and videos, etc.
Patrick Neve
> On Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:30:07 -0500 (CDT), JBR...@webtv.net (John
> Brower) wrote:
>
> >For me, Cal is a very appropriate choice. He has involvement going back
> >to the 1960s (was WOIIFTM the first?). Obviously, Frank admired his
> >work enough to keep up the relationship.
>
> I was criticizing the "free ride" that CS apparently is
> enjoying...isn't an artist expected to keep up his chops and
> outperform competitors, to gain the contract for the new albums.
Now you're making me mad.
1. Like, I'm SURE Clavin is swimming in money. Free ride, my ass.
2. He has most definitely kept up his chops, and broadened his palette.
3. Ever hear of paying your dues? It's different than resting on one's
laurels. Cal's paid 'em several times over and deserves first crack at
covers. If he were to all of a sudden start to suck, WHICH HE DOESN'T,
then there might be a case for exploiting new artists. But due to this
fundamental difference between your opinion and everyone else's, you're
just gonna have to deal with many more Calvin originals as the albums come
out, and that everyone but you will enjoy them.
Yeah, like Frank enjoyed a free ride because of his name recognition.
What's wrong with deserving artists getting a little success? It
certainly is the exception to the rule. Where is it written that artists
must starve? Rrrr. That bristles my fur.
Patrick Neve
> I was referring to the process whereby the graphic art was decided
> upon for the new releases, including the upcoming Mystery Disk and
> what not.
And since when should that not be the sole decision of the copyright
owner?
> all the great album covers that Zappa chose over the span of his
> entire career. At no time did CS dominate the album covers
He did more FZ than any other artist. And he was the only artist I know
of that could be considered "in-house", who was a salaried employee. His
history with Frank's releases unquestionably goes deeper than any other
artists.
> those proposed to him...however, at this time, there is no choice.
> It's CS's material or its none.
Is that a fact? How exactly are Ryko and ZFT contractually bound to use
Schenkel's work exclusively? I'd like to know. It kinda seems to me like
they chose Calvin. Yeah, now that an agreement has been made, there are
certainly some obligations for all concerned parties to follow through on
the Mystery Disc project. But I guarantee that the buyers were free to
shop elsewhere for their talent.
>It's one person proposing a single
> vision, and a single method of arriving and accomplishing the work.
> It's a blank check, IMO. Correct me if I'm wrong...I'll be more than
> pleased to admit errors in analysis.
OK, it's not one person, or even one company. Until CS can confirm,
it would seem there would be a contract for each job. Most recently Ryko
have been hiring Cal, and of their own free will I might add. I can't
believe I even have to say that. More recently, it would seem there is
cooperation with the ZFT as well, and that organization is comprised of
more than just Gail.. it's the whole family. Nowhere have I seen any
evidence that it would be anything other than a series of contracts on a
job by job basis.
> Therefore, I don't
> agree with your point of view that CS is entitled to automatically
> do anything without some form of competition from the outside, with
> other choices from other artists.
The competition exists, and the companies were free to choose whatever
artist they wanted, and they chose Cal.
This isn't an attack on CS or
> anyone else... it's the American way. Free choice, best quality at
> the lowest price. Like the Big Mac vs. Whopper...
This statement speaks for itself.
> First crack I might agree. But being ALONE in this?
How do you know he is? He happens to be, in the eyes of those that pay
the bills, the best choice for the job. A state of competition exists
until a contract is signed. That's your freedom of choice, whopper-boy.
> There is enormous responsibility on CS's
> shoulders right now...in that the releases get in fact released,
> insofar as the art has to be cool, in the tradition that Zappa
> established during his lifetime.
Well noone else seems to doubt Cal's ability except you, Miguel, so I'd
wager that all parties directly involved will be satisfied with what he
creates and the album will come out as planned.
> The sound issue is another thing,
> and I think Bob Stone did a fine job on the rereleases...I hope he's
> involved in the new projects as well, or at least Spencer Chrislu,
> and others.
Have you been living under a rock? Bob Stone has't worked for the Zappa's
since 92.
> > If he were to all of a sudden start to suck, WHICH HE DOESN'T,
>
> Is that a money back guarantee? I don't think so.
It's buyer beware. If you don't like the cover, don't buy it.
> that more CS should get a grip (IMO) and release some kick-ass
> graphics, and not lame stuff like the Cheap Thrills CD art. You
> mentioned yourself...(duh!) that CS had "RECALLED" the artwork or
> what not, it wasn't me. Go figure. Was that a shot in your own
> foot?
No, Calvin offered to personally customize each cover of Cheap Thrills
that was sent to him, in exchange only for return postage. He's not making
any money with that particular venture, he's just being cool. What
other album cover artists offer their fans original works for nothing?
Would you like a bandage for your foot?
Sam and/or Karen Rouse
> On Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:30:07 -0500 (CDT), JBR...@webtv.net (John
> Brower) wrote:
>
> >For me, Cal is a very appropriate choice. He has involvement going back
> >to the 1960s (was WOIIFTM the first?). Obviously, Frank admired his
> >work enough to keep up the relationship.
>
> I was criticizing the "free ride" that CS apparently is
> enjoying...isn't an artist expected to keep up his chops and
> outperform competitors, to gain the contract for the new albums.
{garbage snipped}
I can't take it any more - get yer head outta yer momma & PAPA's ass and
see if _you_ can make a go of it in the world of graphic arts, while still
hanging onto yer own sense of creativity rather than spending a year or
more coming up with the next Toyota logo (will it be more of a fedora next
time, or just an extra-wide sombrero sorta kind of a car-fish whirly
thang?). I really doubt that you have the balls for it.
--
Sam and/or Karen Rouse ro...@teleport.com
alt.fan.frank-zappa RC5-64 team webpage:
http://www.teleport.com/~rouse/fz/rc5.html
Concert Tales:
http://www.teleport.com/~rouse/fz/
It Never Entered My Mind
Karen Rouse) wrote:
>> >For me, Cal is a very appropriate choice. He has involvement going back
>> >to the 1960s (was WOIIFTM the first?). Obviously, Frank admired his
>> >work enough to keep up the relationship.
>>
>> I was criticizing the "free ride" that CS apparently is
>> enjoying...isn't an artist expected to keep up his chops and
>> outperform competitors, to gain the contract for the new albums.
>see if _you_ can make a go of it in the world of graphic arts, while still
>hanging onto yer own sense of creativity rather than spending a year or
>more coming up with the next Toyota logo
What are you saying? That Schenkel's artwork is being manipulated by
other people? Correct me if I didn't read you correctly, but it
seems that what you're saying is that, given Schenkel's dependence
on GZ, the legend cannot draw or prepare the art work that he would
ideally enjoy releasing to fans?
I very much doubt that account...I think that CS is expected to rely
on his own judgement for the Zappa albums, and can do pretty much
anything he wants, using the tools he wants, whether it's a pencil
and paper, or a 200 MHZ Intel computer or iMAC with 120 MB of RAM
with full PhotoShop plugins, and/or Adobe Illustrator, QuarkxPress,
and what not...and/or any other tools, including a bit of Monica
Lewinsky's dress that she handed over to the independent counsel,
for that matter (if available, of course.)
Sam and/or Karen Rouse
Patrick Neve <sp...@darkwing.uoregon.edu> wrote:
> Now you're making me mad.
>
> 1. Like, I'm SURE Clavin is swimming in money. Free ride, my ass.
> 2. He has most definitely kept up his chops, and broadened his palette.
> 3. Ever hear of paying your dues? It's different than resting on one's
> laurels. Cal's paid 'em several times over and deserves first crack at
> covers. If he were to all of a sudden start to suck, WHICH HE DOESN'T,
> then there might be a case for exploiting new artists. But due to this
> fundamental difference between your opinion and everyone else's, you're
> just gonna have to deal with many more Calvin originals as the albums come
> out, and that everyone but you will enjoy them.
>
> Yeah, like Frank enjoyed a free ride because of his name recognition.
> What's wrong with deserving artists getting a little success? It
> certainly is the exception to the rule. Where is it written that artists
> must starve? Rrrr. That bristles my fur.
You said it much better than I did. Cal's a major talent (and a really
nice guy, besides) and deserves whatever artwork jobs the ZFT & Ryko send
his way, and we benefit from his talent whenever it manages to find its way
to market.
I think Miguel's just being wickly again in order to rile us up & get some
attention (at least I hope he doesn't mean all that crap).
It Never Entered My Mind
<sp...@darkwing.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>1. Like, I'm SURE Clavin is swimming in money.
Nowhere in my previous posting can one think I'm talking about the
"phatness" of the new contract that CS established with GZ. Rather,
I was referring to the process whereby the graphic art was decided
upon for the new releases, including the upcoming Mystery Disk and
what not.
>Free ride, my ass.
A brown-out on the newsgroup...?!
>2. He has most definitely kept up his chops, and broadened his palette.
Where? How?
>3. Ever hear of paying your dues?
Sure.
>It's different than resting on one's laurels.
I guess you've concluded for yourself that the former is the case,
and the latter isn't. On my part, it's an open question, considering
all the great album covers that Zappa chose over the span of his
entire career. At no time did CS dominate the album covers - it was
on and off thing, as far as I know. Zappa picked the best from among
those proposed to him...however, at this time, there is no choice.
It's CS's material or its none. It's one person proposing a single
vision, and a single method of arriving and accomplishing the work.
It's a blank check, IMO. Correct me if I'm wrong...I'll be more than
pleased to admit errors in analysis. e.g. the Weasels cover, or the
Overnite Sensation cover...none done by CS. And those 2 are among
the most recognized Zappa covers. Even the Drowning Witch album
cover is taken from a comic strip although with authorization. I
don't think that anyone can claim, with common sense, that Cal
Schenkel represents a typical "Zappa" album cover. I think the
legend was just ONE of the several artists who did work for Zappa.
Take the Boulez Perfect Stranger album cover...again, a kinda
shocking album cover...who did it? It wasn't CS! Therefore, I don't
agree with your point of view that CS is entitled to automatically
do anything without some form of competition from the outside, with
other choices from other artists. This isn't an attack on CS or
anyone else... it's the American way. Free choice, best quality at
the lowest price. Like the Big Mac vs. Whopper...whatever
outperforms the competition. It's a lame comparison (restaurants)
but I hope it enables some understanding of what I'm trying to put
across. "Paid his dues" my ass... too. Several other artists also
paid their dues....just like some musicians are ticked off at the
way the were handled. e.g. Grandmothers band, etc.
> Cal's paid 'em several times over and deserves first crack at
>covers.
First crack I might agree. But being ALONE in this? What if Ryko
and/or GZ does get her rocks off from the new album covers? What is
she gonna do ? Postpone the releases for another 6 months, trying to
organize a new competition or contact new talent agencies for
someone to redo the works? There is enormous responsibility on CS's
shoulders right now...in that the releases get in fact released,
insofar as the art has to be cool, in the tradition that Zappa
established during his lifetime. The sound issue is another thing,
and I think Bob Stone did a fine job on the rereleases...I hope he's
involved in the new projects as well, or at least Spencer Chrislu,
and others.
> If he were to all of a sudden start to suck, WHICH HE DOESN'T,
Is that a money back guarantee? I don't think so.
>then there might be a case for exploiting new artists. But due to this
>fundamental difference between your opinion and everyone else's, you're
>just gonna have to deal with many more Calvin originals as the albums come
>out, and that everyone but you will enjoy them.
I never said I wouldn't enjoy them. What I said was that I thought
that more CS should get a grip (IMO) and release some kick-ass
graphics, and not lame stuff like the Cheap Thrills CD art. You
mentioned yourself...(duh!) that CS had "RECALLED" the artwork or
what not, it wasn't me. Go figure. Was that a shot in your own
foot?
>Yeah, like Frank enjoyed a free ride because of his name recognition.
>What's wrong with deserving artists getting a little success? It
>certainly is the exception to the rule. Where is it written that artists
>must starve? Rrrr. That bristles my fur.
Artists must NOT starve. That's the opposite of what I'm saying. You
seem to be championing a monopoly of Schenkel covers....like the new
mergers and aquisitions taking place in the global economy. Less and
less choice, higher and higher prices, and no competition.
Sam and/or Karen Rouse
> On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 00:57:52 GMT, ro...@teleport.com (Sam and/or
> Karen Rouse) wrote:
>
> >> >For me, Cal is a very appropriate choice. He has involvement going back
> >> >to the 1960s (was WOIIFTM the first?). Obviously, Frank admired his
> >> >work enough to keep up the relationship.
> >>
> >> I was criticizing the "free ride" that CS apparently is
> >> enjoying...isn't an artist expected to keep up his chops and
> >> outperform competitors, to gain the contract for the new albums.
>
> >see if _you_ can make a go of it in the world of graphic arts, while still
> >hanging onto yer own sense of creativity rather than spending a year or
> >more coming up with the next Toyota logo
>
> What are you saying? That Schenkel's artwork is being manipulated by
> other people? Correct me if I didn't read you correctly,
OK, consider yerself corrected - that isn't what I said at all. Cal's
chosen his own artistic path which is free of the weight of any corporate
logo, and he does what he does. If you don't like it, fine, but the
selling-out-and-coasting etc. crap is not justified; matter of fact, it's
insulting. Go play on the freeway with PAPA.
It Never Entered My Mind
<sp...@darkwing.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>> I was referring to the process whereby the graphic art was decided
>> upon for the new releases, including the upcoming Mystery Disk and
>> what not.
>
>And since when should that not be the sole decision of the copyright
>owner?
The question is to what extent is there a sensibility for the tastes
of the art consumer, in this case, of the consumer of a
Ryko/Zappa/Schenkel product? If the tastes of a music fan disagrees
with a particular album's art work is this a big deal? Will it cause
an international incident in Afghanistan and Sudan?
>> all the great album covers that Zappa chose over the span of his
>> entire career. At no time did CS dominate the album covers
>
>He did more FZ than any other artist. And he was the only artist I know
>of that could be considered "in-house", who was a salaried employee. His
>history with Frank's releases unquestionably goes deeper than any other
>artists.
Right - but does that entitle the elimination of the other artists
who at one time or another produced art? Should they be called on
the phone, and told "Hey, I have this new album coming up, and I'd
like art made in this way and that way, but otherwise, your hands of
free to do something. I will pick the art I enjoy the most - it's a
competition or contest" ? Or should only one person get the call?
>> those proposed to him...however, at this time, there is no choice.
>> It's CS's material or its none.
>
>Is that a fact? How exactly are Ryko and ZFT contractually bound to use
>Schenkel's work exclusively? I'd like to know. It kinda seems to me like
>they chose Calvin. Yeah, now that an agreement has been made, there are
>certainly some obligations for all concerned parties to follow through on
>the Mystery Disc project. But I guarantee that the buyers were free to
>shop elsewhere for their talent.
Well, as in Wag the Dog, "don't change the horse you're betting on
in mid-race" (paraphrased)
>> Therefore, I don't
>> agree with your point of view that CS is entitled to automatically
>> do anything without some form of competition from the outside, with
>> other choices from other artists.
>
>The competition exists, and the companies were free to choose whatever
>artist they wanted, and they chose Cal.
Right - but on under the appearances, exactly how much mulling over
took place ? Was it a 30 second decision to get exactly only one
professional to do the album work, or was it more pondered? (not
that this matters to anyone, including the Trust)
> This isn't an attack on CS or
>> anyone else... it's the American way. Free choice, best quality at
>> the lowest price. Like the Big Mac vs. Whopper...
>
>This statement speaks for itself.
The point came across, I guess.
>> There is enormous responsibility on CS's
>> shoulders right now...in that the releases get in fact released,
>> insofar as the art has to be cool, in the tradition that Zappa
>> established during his lifetime.
>
>Well noone else seems to doubt Cal's ability except you, Miguel, so I'd
>wager that all parties directly involved will be satisfied with what he
>creates and the album will come out as planned.
Only me? What about your mentioning of the art you sent back to CS?
In my neck of the woods, a product is sent back when there is
customer DIS-satisfaction, which is what appears to be your
situation, but there might be something more to this that I don't
know! :-)
>
>> The sound issue is another thing,
>> and I think Bob Stone did a fine job on the rereleases...I hope he's
>> involved in the new projects as well, or at least Spencer Chrislu,
>> and others.
>
>Have you been living under a rock? Bob Stone has't worked for the Zappa's
>since 92.
Is Bob Stone dead? There's nothing that prevents a return for more
work, that I know of. Jim Morrisson and Jimi Hendrix, however,
can't say as much, unfortunately. :-(
Cal Schenkel
o...@stockholm.com wrote:
>[snip]
Geez. What a pleasant surprise to come home to. If it was anyone but
Miguel, I might be hurt & offended-- children can be so cruel!
I don't know where to begin to straighten out some of these mistaken
assumptions about "contracts" and WHAT NOT. Ah, what's the point.
As to whatever part of your criticism may have any validity: They may be
good or they may be bad, but they are my children and I love them.
Michael, Patrick, Sam & all-- Thanks for your support!
About the Cheap Thrills inserts-- Time flies, hunh!
Anyway, I hope to start getting them out this week.
--Calvin
He can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any man I know.
- - - Abraham Lincoln
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
It Never Entered My Mind
wrote:
>>[snip]
>
>Geez. What a pleasant surprise to come home to. If it was anyone but
>Miguel, I might be hurt & offended-- children can be so cruel!
Well, last June ... what were your words? Oh, yes. Now I remember:
"F_ck You (IMO) "
Didn't bother replying. It's never too late, anyway.
>I don't know where to begin to straighten out some of these mistaken
>assumptions about "contracts" and WHAT NOT. Ah, what's the point.
splat referred to contracts. I did not.
Indeed, what's the point?
"The bucks keep rollin' in..." - FZ
Sam and/or Karen Rouse
> At no time did CS dominate the album covers - it was
> on and off thing, as far as I know.
So? (BTW, you should consider "as far as I know" or even the ever-popular
AFAIK as a mantra - whichever is easier for you to chant.)
> Zappa picked the best from among
> those proposed to him...however, at this time, there is no choice.
> It's CS's material or its none. It's one person proposing a single
> vision, and a single method of arriving and accomplishing the work.
How did you arrive at this?
> It's a blank check, IMO. Correct me if I'm wrong...I'll be more than
> pleased to admit errors in analysis.
OK, you're wrong. Admit your error, and be happy. (There oughta be a
Bobby McFerrin swell of at this point; use yer imagination.)
> e.g. the Weasels cover, or the
> Overnite Sensation cover...none done by CS. And those 2 are among
> the most recognized Zappa covers.
So? The Campbells tomato soup can is probably the most recognized work of
art aside from the Mona Lisa. I'll take any of Cal's work over either, if
you don't mind. (Not to detract from Neon Park or David McMacken, but your
point is spurious at best.)
> Even the Drowning Witch album
> cover is taken from a comic strip although with authorization. I
> don't think that anyone can claim, with common sense, that Cal
> Schenkel represents a typical "Zappa" album cover.
Can you name a single artist that's had more to do with FZ's album covers
in general than Cal? (Common sense, coming from you, is a non-sequitur.)
> I think the
> legend was just ONE of the several artists who did work for Zappa.
> Take the Boulez Perfect Stranger album cover...again, a kinda
> shocking album cover...who did it? It wasn't CS! Therefore, I don't
> agree with your point of view that CS is entitled to automatically
> do anything without some form of competition from the outside, with
> other choices from other artists.
It isn't a contest. If the ZFT wants to license some Wilson artwork for an
album, and he's willing, it'll probably happen.
> This isn't an attack on CS or
> anyone else... it's the American way. Free choice, best quality at
> the lowest price. Like the Big Mac vs. Whopper...whatever
> outperforms the competition. It's a lame comparison (restaurants)
> but I hope it enables some understanding of what I'm trying to put
> across.
You got me there - I don't think I understand the world you're living in.
> "Paid his dues" my ass... too. Several other artists also
> paid their dues....just like some musicians are ticked off at the
> way the were handled. e.g. Grandmothers band, etc.
What kinda dues have _you_ paid to pass such judgements?
{a buncha stuff snipped - nothing important}
> I never said I wouldn't enjoy them. What I said was that I thought
> that more CS should get a grip (IMO) and release some kick-ass
> graphics, and not lame stuff like the Cheap Thrills CD art. You
> mentioned yourself...(duh!) that CS had "RECALLED" the artwork or
> what not, it wasn't me. Go figure. Was that a shot in your own
> foot?
Do you even bother to read things before you respond to them? Do you
bother to think before spewing forth from your keyboard?
> <sp...@darkwing.uoregon.edu> wrote:
> >Yeah, like Frank enjoyed a free ride because of his name recognition.
> >What's wrong with deserving artists getting a little success? It
> >certainly is the exception to the rule. Where is it written that artists
> >must starve? Rrrr. That bristles my fur.
>
> Artists must NOT starve. That's the opposite of what I'm saying. You
> seem to be championing a monopoly of Schenkel covers....like the new
> mergers and aquisitions taking place in the global economy. Less and
> less choice, higher and higher prices, and no competition.
So it seems you equate art with a commodity; whoever can deliver the "best
product" for the lowest price should get to spew their material on the next
ZFT released CD covers. For that matter, maybe the music delivered on the
discs should be prepared by the same criteria. I'll look forward to "The
Rage and the Fury" being a collection of Wayne Newton and Elvis hits
rendered on the synclavier, with velvet nudes and clowns on the cover.
It Never Entered My Mind
Karen Rouse) wrote:
>Do you even bother to read things before you respond to them? Do you
>bother to think before spewing forth from your keyboard?
>
>> <sp...@darkwing.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>> >Yeah, like Frank enjoyed a free ride because of his name recognition.
>> >What's wrong with deserving artists getting a little success? It
>> >certainly is the exception to the rule. Where is it written that artists
>> >must starve? Rrrr. That bristles my fur.
>>
>> Artists must NOT starve. That's the opposite of what I'm saying. You
>> seem to be championing a monopoly of Schenkel covers....like the new
>> mergers and aquisitions taking place in the global economy. Less and
>> less choice, higher and higher prices, and no competition.
>
>So it seems you equate art with a commodity; whoever can deliver the "best
>product" for the lowest price should get to spew their material on the next
>ZFT released CD covers. For that matter, maybe the music delivered on the
>discs should be prepared by the same criteria. I'll look forward to "The
>Rage and the Fury" being a collection of Wayne Newton and Elvis hits
>rendered on the synclavier, with velvet nudes and clowns on the cover.
From more than one point of view, I guess I could agree with your
assessment. Why wouldn't art be a commodity? Isn't art like futures
on pork-bellies and oranges traded on the Chicago Mercantile
Exchange? Art is collected. It's traded. It's sold. It's purchased.
It's priced. It's shuffled around from city to city for exposition
to the paying public. Art is "goods". Get the idea?
Pher
Enough said.
簳柡晼簳柡晼簳柡晼簳柡晼簳柡晼簳柡晼簳柡晼簳柡晼
[Pher]
"Remember I was signed with Warner
Brothers for eight fucking years."
-Frank Zappa };瑊o-
簳柡晼簳柡晼簳柡晼簳柡晼簳柡晼簳柡晼簳柡晼簳柡晼
Sam and/or Karen Rouse
Miguel, let's stop dancing and get directly to the point. You're so fulla
shit yer eyes are brown, and if you could get yer head any further up yer
ass you'd be looking out between yer teeth - all of which makes "go fuck
yerself" an especially interesting problem of topology.
dan the kitti man
<35e011e5...@news.total.net>, o...@stockholm.com (It Never Entered
My Mind) said...
>
> I have mixed feelings about Yellow Shark...it shows a dying Zappa,
> and that's quite shocking to the teenage consumer.
>
you must have gotten the rare cover that "shows a dying zappa" -- my YS
cover did not show a dying zappa. it was shocking to all the teenagers
who could not get a ride to the grateful dead concert, or more recently,
the further fest. anywho, thanks for your brief, 98-line, post.
listening to the meat puppets now btw, all through this post they have
been singing "dying, dying" -- that is CC! :)
--
===== dan the kitti man === surf.to/dankitti <-- actual web url
where would the music be without the pauses between the notes?
how could there be dancing without the pauses between the
motions? how could we breathe if we were constantly filled with air?
exhale to inhale again..
-- ana voog
Sam and/or Karen Rouse
> From more than one point of view, I guess I could agree with your
> assessment. Why wouldn't art be a commodity? Isn't art like futures
> on pork-bellies and oranges traded on the Chicago Mercantile
> Exchange? Art is collected. It's traded. It's sold. It's purchased.
> It's priced. It's shuffled around from city to city for exposition
> to the paying public. Art is "goods". Get the idea?
I had the idea quite awhile ago, but didn't want to admit it; I was giving
you the benefit of the doubt in thinking you might not really value art in
this way. You and Toshi should be best buddies.
Have a wickly day,
Sam
Pher
>that was sent to him, in exchange only for return postage. He's not making
>any money with that particular venture, he's just being cool. What
>other album cover artists offer their fans original works for nothing?
>Would you like a bandage for your foot?
A little off-subject:
Wow, this is the first I hear of this! Can someone give me CS's e-mail address
or tell me how I can get my very own custimization?
thanks.
Michael Pierry
>
>
> A little off-subject:
>
> Wow, this is the first I hear of this! Can someone give me CS's e-mail address
> or tell me how I can get my very own custimization?
>
I have no idea whether the offer still stands, but go here:
Michael Pierry
me WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT???
Sorry, but you guys are arguing about nothing.
It Never Entered My Mind wrote:
>
> On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 06:29:16 GMT, ro...@teleport.com (Sam and/or
> Karen Rouse) wrote:
>
> >Do you even bother to read things before you respond to them? Do you
> >bother to think before spewing forth from your keyboard?
> >
> >> <sp...@darkwing.uoregon.edu> wrote:
> >> >Yeah, like Frank enjoyed a free ride because of his name recognition.
> >> >What's wrong with deserving artists getting a little success? It
> >> >certainly is the exception to the rule. Where is it written that artists
> >> >must starve? Rrrr. That bristles my fur.
> >>
> >> Artists must NOT starve. That's the opposite of what I'm saying. You
> >> seem to be championing a monopoly of Schenkel covers....like the new
> >> mergers and aquisitions taking place in the global economy. Less and
> >> less choice, higher and higher prices, and no competition.
> >
> >So it seems you equate art with a commodity; whoever can deliver the "best
> >product" for the lowest price should get to spew their material on the next
> >ZFT released CD covers. For that matter, maybe the music delivered on the
> >discs should be prepared by the same criteria. I'll look forward to "The
> >Rage and the Fury" being a collection of Wayne Newton and Elvis hits
> >rendered on the synclavier, with velvet nudes and clowns on the cover.
>
Geir Corneliussen
time was a beauty. I like them. Never bothered to analyze them to
pieces. Cal is a part of the Zappa-history to me. Good to see he keeps
going strong.
Geir Corneliussen
Darkhop
> I think CS should really get a grip and start focusing on doing
> more convincing work!!!
Is this "new Miguel" only so because you leave out the IMOs?
You really ought to get a grip and qualify whatever "convincing work" is
supposed to be, because otherwise it's nothing more than a dressed-up "I
don't like it" designed to be insulting to the artist who we all know
reads this ng.
It Never Entered My Mind
>Also, I don't think the use of pink in the Broadway booklet had anything to
>do with homosexuality- it's just a reference to Don Johnson 80's pastel
>fashion.
If I recall correctly, in the 80's there was a lot of that
transgenderism phenomena out there...first, among the metal playing
bands, such as Guns and Roses, Motley Crue, and any number of other
bands dressed in spandex, dressed hair and other attire. Next, in
the pop music segment, much was the case as well. On the LoveSexy
album, Prince presented himself nude on the cover...the question
begs asking: for whom? Take a look at the whole LA metal scene and
LA pop scene.... Finally, you might have a point about the Miami
Vice series on television influencing sociology and culture, but
that was mostly about trafficking with Columbians and what not on
that show, and not about music....
Basically, the pop world was permeated with that transgenderism
phenomena....while the early 90's reverted to work attire and sober
sounds in the music (grunge) by the Seattle sound scene.
Cal Schenkel
o...@stockholm.com wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 05:34:18 GMT, cal...@RALF.com (Cal Schenkel)
> wrote:
>
> >>[snip]
> >
> >Geez. What a pleasant surprise to come home to. If it was anyone but
> >Miguel, I might be hurt & offended-- children can be so cruel!
>
> Well, last June ... what were your words? Oh, yes. Now I remember:
> "F_ck You (IMO) "
>
No my words were: "Fuck You (IMO)"
> Didn't bother replying. It's never too late, anyway.
>
Be sure to quote your bigoted hateful bonehead rant,
for which the only appropriate response was: "Fuck You (IMO)"
> >I don't know where to begin to straighten out some of these mistaken
> >assumptions about "contracts" and WHAT NOT. Ah, what's the point.
>
> splat referred to contracts. I did not.
>
Yuh! You did:
Subject: Re: Short comment on Schenkel's art work
From: o...@stockholm.com (It Never Entered My Mind)
Date: Sun, Aug 23, 1998 12:20 EDT
Message-id: <35e13f2...@news.total.net>
[snip]...
>Where is everybody else? The other art designers? I wouldn't
>discount the possibility that CS is getting a free ride
>here...getting the contract without competition from all the other
>artists who gave their input and have covers that Ryko naturally
>released as part of Zappa's albums over the span of his career.
>
>But I need more information...and I might have to fine-tune the
>above analysis. By all means, correct my wrong information if any.
What an enormous chore that would be!
=====
Michael Pierry
>
>
> transgenderism phenomena out there...first, among the metal playing
> bands, such as Guns and Roses, Motley Crue, and any number of other
> bands dressed in spandex, dressed hair and other attire. Next, in
They had the big hair and makeup and stuff, but those were highly
testosterone-driven bands. Was it Motley Crue that had that song, "Girls
girls girls" or whatever? And they always had naked chicks dancing around.
Those bands were all about gettin' pussy. All the girls had posters of them
all over their walls (I've personally witnessed this phenomena) and would get
all wet over Bon Jovi and stuff. And even though they were dumb, cheesy,
sexist, and kind of annoying, I enjoy listening to them for sentimental
reasons. Those were the big popular groups when I was a prepubescent
youngster, and hearing them always takes me back. "Welcome To the Jungle"
makes me downright nostalgic. And don't get me started on David Lee Roth. I
can't believe I'm revealing this here. All I'm trying to say is, these guys
were not homos!!! (Not that there's anything wrong with it, blah blah
disclaimer, I have gay friends, blah blah blah gay people are swell blah blah)
> the pop music segment, much was the case as well. On the LoveSexy
> album, Prince presented himself nude on the cover...the question
> begs asking: for whom?
For chicks, dumbass.
> LA pop scene.... Finally, you might have a point about the Miami
> Vice series on television influencing sociology and culture, but
> that was mostly about trafficking with Columbians and what not on
> that show, and not about music....
What about the Miami Vice soundtrack album?
>
> Basically, the pop world was permeated with that transgenderism
> phenomena....while the early 90's reverted to work attire and sober
> sounds in the music (grunge) by the Seattle sound scene.
I remember a few years ago when everyone starting wearing them flannel shirts,
I bought a couple (yes, trendy me) and I used to wear them all the time. And
my uncle looked at me wearing a flannel shirt and he said, "What are you
dressing like me for?" He's an auto mechanic. Hey, at least I never owned
any Doc Martens.
And only you would describe grunge as sounding "sober".
Michael Pierry
>
>
> No my words were: "Fuck You (IMO)"
I think I remember that. Go, Cal!
>
> > Didn't bother replying. It's never too late, anyway.
> >
>
> Be sure to quote your bigoted hateful bonehead rant,
> for which the only appropriate response was: "Fuck You (IMO)"
You know what's funny? This guy actually kill-filed me! So he can't read any
of my posts. Can you imagine, I actually said something that was so
offensive, Miguel couldn't stand to read any of my posts anymore! And I don't
even know what it was. Ludicrous.
>
> What an enormous chore that would be!
>
You have the right to feel indignant about Miggy's unkind words, but my advice
to you is not to waste your time. Everybody here loves you and your work, Mr.
Schenkel. Don't let this guy cramp your style, so to speak. These wars of
words are never pretty.
Ron Spiegelhalter
something like...
> Cal Schenkel wrote:
(snip)
> > Be sure to quote your bigoted hateful bonehead rant,
> > for which the only appropriate response was: "Fuck You (IMO)"
>
> You know what's funny? This guy actually kill-filed me! So he can't read any
> of my posts. Can you imagine, I actually said something that was so
> offensive, Miguel couldn't stand to read any of my posts anymore! And I don't
> even know what it was. Ludicrous.
It probably contained some sort of factual information.
--
ron
<ron2112 at empire dot net>
"Once upon a time when you saw roadkill you said "aw"
Now you say "good for you"
Maybe it's a certain enzyme you lack
And may all your T-shirts be black"
-Mike Keneally, "Top of Stove Melting"
www.moosenet.com/keneally.html
Cherone
believe what is going on! Miguel reminds me of one of my "friends" that looks
to say things on the mere basis of causing a gigantic argument. Just for
argument's sake! He's even said that he loves arguing. I think this is the
same problem Miguel suffers from. To rate the covers oe each FZ album that Cal
worked on is so ridiculous. I liked the line I read before that Michael Perry
had said: something to the extent of Cal's FZ covers being some of the best
covers in the known universe....exactly!
Not to mention the fact of Miguel's audacity to publicly begin this
dissertation of Cal's work on the a.f.f.z without any encouragement and
expecting nothing short of hysteria. Not to mention the fact that Cal would be
reading all of this. Miguel, you should look into joining Ninja at that
alt.fan.frank.zappa.fans.are.assholes or whatever the hell it's called....
Have a nice day everyone! =)
Scott "Penguin In Bondage" Fischer
CHE...@AOL.COM
***ALWAYS ON DUTY***
}:洌-
D.G. Porter
>
> Once upon a time in the faerie woods, in
> My Mind) said...
> >
> > I have mixed feelings about Yellow Shark...it shows a dying Zappa,
> > and that's quite shocking to the teenage consumer.
> >
>
> you must have gotten the rare cover that "shows a dying zappa" --
Do you mean the picture inside the cover flap with the other guys piled
on him?
Bossk (R)
> > On the LoveSexy album, Prince presented himself nude
> > on the cover ... the question begs asking: for whom?
>
> For chicks, dumbass.
You guys are so bizarre. It was for whoever looked at the album cover.
--- johan <wik...@mbox301.swipnet.se>
"Please excuse me!"
- Lau Kar-Fai, SHAOLIN & WUDANG, Hong Kong 1983 (English subtitle)
Greg Carson
wrote:
-snip-
>You know what's funny? This guy actually kill-filed me! So he can't read any
>of my posts. Can you imagine, I actually said something that was so
>offensive, Miguel couldn't stand to read any of my posts anymore! And I don't
>even know what it was. Ludicrous.
that's funny I like your post Michael a little wordy sometimes :-P,
but it is funny cause I killed file Miguel months and months ago.
But then again I very rarely write more than a sentence or two.
-snip-
Greg Carson aka shag...@apk.net
Fred Banta
>
>I think Miguel's just being wickly again in order to
rile us up & get some
>attention (at least I hope he doesn't mean all that
crap).
I doubt it. I think we should all know by now exactly
what it is that never entered Miguel's mind.
Fred Banta
"Music is the only religion that delivers the goods."
Frank Zappa
Fred Banta
John Brower
What are we singing about?
We must be FLIPPING OUT!
Tal
<6rplku$o...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
>Miguel, I don't believe that Cal had anything to do with the artwork or
>design of Strictly Genteel, The Lost Episodes, Make a Jazz Noise Here,
>Zappa's Universe, the YCDTOSA series, Broadway the Hard Way, Tinseltown
>Rebellion, Waka/Jawaka, or The Yellow Shark.
Didn't he do the TTR cover? I remember him posting about the Crush All Boxes
album and even putting the covers online. That aside, you're right.:-)
(I didn't get Miguel's original post, what's happening? No, and I didn't
killfile him.)
--Tal
_____________________________________________
e-mail : an...@cidanka.nl
web : http://www.cidanka.nl
Fred Banta
David Wilcher
>On 23 Aug 1998 18:05:18 GMT, in alt.fan.frank-zappa C Ekman wrote:
>If I recall correctly, in the 80's there was a lot of that
>transgenderism phenomena out there...first, among the metal playing
You're quite the expert on transgenderism and homosexuality, IMO.
>bands, such as Guns and Roses, Motley Crue, and any number of other
>bands dressed in spandex, dressed hair and other attire. Next, in
>the pop music segment, much was the case as well. On the LoveSexy
>album, Prince presented himself nude on the cover...the question
>begs asking: for whom?
For YOU. And quit begging, it's bad form.
--
David Wilcher
Tape List @ www.angelfire.com/oh/davesfztapelist/
wil...@ibm.net
The whole Universe is a large joke.
Everything in the Universe are just subdivisions of this joke.
So why take anything too serious? -FZ
Michael Pierry
>
>
> that's funny I like your post Michael a little wordy sometimes :-P,
> but it is funny cause I killed file Miguel months and months ago.
I've been trying to cut down on my wordiness, lately. I don't believe in
kill-filing anybody, no matter how stupid their posts are.
Svante
>About the Cheap Thrills inserts-- Time flies, hunh!
>Anyway, I hope to start getting them out this week.
Is the offer still valid? Would you kill us if we sent you our CT
covers now? Yeah, I know I'm slow but what the hey.
--
Svante Pettersson
The Highway Star - http://www.deep-purple.com/
Another site - http://deep-purple.family-tree.org/
(C) 1998 The Deep Purple Can Do No Wrong Society
Svante
>> > I have mixed feelings about Yellow Shark...it shows a dying Zappa,
>> > and that's quite shocking to the teenage consumer.
>>
>> you must have gotten the rare cover that "shows a dying zappa" --
>
>Do you mean the picture inside the cover flap with the other guys piled
>on him?
This is where I tell everyone that I know (or at least knew a couple
of years ago) Fritz who shot that cover. I am very proud of that.
Paul Hinrichs
>Greg Carson wrote:
>>
KRANX!! Ooogah-OOogah!! Keeese me, Consuela, my arches have fallen!
Now I fart....
Sam and/or Karen Rouse
(Paul Hinrichs) wrote:
> KRANX!! Ooogah-OOogah!! Keeese me, Consuela, my arches have fallen!
> Now I fart....
I think that pretty much sums it up. On to the next flame war...
Greg Carson
wrote:
>Greg Carson wrote:
>>
>
>>
>> that's funny I like your post Michael a little wordy sometimes :-P,
>> but it is funny cause I killed file Miguel months and months ago.
>
>I've been trying to cut down on my wordiness, lately. I don't believe in
>kill-filing anybody, no matter how stupid their posts are.
Ya know you are right, I think I will un-kill him
Greg Carson aka shag...@apk.net
Michael Pierry
>
> Michael Pierry <still...@home.com> wrote:
>
>
> >I've been trying to cut down on my wordiness, lately. I don't believe in
> >kill-filing anybody, no matter how stupid their posts are.
>
> Now I fart....
See what I mean? Now, why would I want to miss something as brilliant as that?
Cal Schenkel
Michael Pierry <still...@home.com> wrote:
> Pher wrote:
> >
> >
> > A little off-subject:
> >
> > Wow, this is the first I hear of this! Can someone give me CS's e-mail
address
> > or tell me how I can get my very own custimization?
> >
>
> I have no idea whether the offer still stands, but go here:
>
> http://www.RALF.com
Instructions at:
http://www.ralf.com/cheap.html
(please allow 4-36 weeks for delivery)
Eric Martin
were handling this so well. But I just had to put my two cents worth in:
Miguel, I can't believe some of the shit I am reading here! You have the
audacity to publicly insult Cal Schenkel the way you did and you continue to
attack him personally. Yes, I consider your remarks personal attacks because
a mans art is an extension of himself. People like you are the reason more
Zappa luminaries like Cal Schenkel don't post here as often (or not at all.)
You are just as bad as, if not worse than, PAPA. But at least we all know
where PAPA stands. With you, you profess to be a Zappa fan yet time and
again you make remarks that are completely off base about FZ or people who
FZ trusted and admired (like Cal, I'm sure.) I consider your insults against
Cal's art an insult to Frank Zappa himself because obviously Frank had the
final say on the artwork that appeared on his albums when he was alive.
Furthermore, I'm sure that Frank trusted Gail's judgement enough to entrust
her with choosing the artwork for posthumous FZ releases. So your remarks,
thusly, have indirectly insulted Frank Zappa. IMO!!!!
Eric Martin
ema...@hemisfear.com
ICQ#8403827
The Iron Sausage: Zappa Interviews & Articles
http://www.hemisfear.com/zappa/
Hoodoo
(Svante) wrote:
>cal...@RALF.com (Cal Schenkel) vrute-a:
>
>>About the Cheap Thrills inserts-- Time flies, hunh!
>>Anyway, I hope to start getting them out this week.
>
>Is the offer still valid? Would you kill us if we sent you our CT
>covers now? Yeah, I know I'm slow but what the hey.
I would like to still get in on it too, Cal. I procrastinated when
that thread was all the rage in this newsgroup way back when. Can I
still get in on it?
========
Hoodoo
With all of the untruths uncovered through the years,
why don't we rename that place the White-Lie House?
To contact me via e-mail please remove the
obvious pest deterrent in my address.
It Never Entered My Mind
<ema...@hemisfear.com> wrote:
>I wanted to stay out of this thread because I thought Patrick and the others
>were handling this so well. But I just had to put my two cents worth in:
>
>Miguel, I can't believe some of the shit I am reading here! You have the
>audacity to publicly insult Cal Schenkel the way you did and you continue to
>attack him personally. Yes, I consider your remarks personal attacks because
>a man's art is an extension of himself.
My dick is an extension of my body, but my work is my work. It's
separate. I don't know where you got the idea that work and a
person's body is one and the same.
> People like you are the reason more
>Zappa luminaries like Cal Schenkel don't post here as often (or not at all.)
Uh, I don't think so.
>You are just as bad as, if not worse than, PAPA. But at least we all know
>where PAPA stands.
Where do _you_ think PAPA stands?! I've read his postings (or her's,
I dunno) and I don't get it, unlike you apparently.
Finally, you have to get used to the idea that there are no Holy
Cows around a newsgroup.
Each is, or should be (IMO) open for criticism. Pepsi vs. Coca Cola;
the Big Mac vs. the Whopper; IBM vs. Apple Corp. Got it?
I don't even consider Cal Schenkel to be a "Holy Cow" in the most
respectful sense of the words. He's a professional, and a close
friend of the ZFT, from all the available evidence.
I can't even believe I have to write what I am writing to protect
freedom of thought and expression on this newsgroup. geez.
Biomedy
END OF STORY
HIS ART = LAME ON ZOOT ALLURES
FUCKING HOMO
Tal
<35e354d7...@news.total.net>...
>On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 01:56:48 -0700, "Eric Martin"
><ema...@hemisfear.com> wrote:
>
>>I wanted to stay out of this thread because I thought Patrick and the
others
>>were handling this so well. But I just had to put my two cents worth in:
I felt the same way but...
>>Miguel, I can't believe some of the shit I am reading here! You have the
>>audacity to publicly insult Cal Schenkel the way you did and you continue
to
>>attack him personally. Yes, I consider your remarks personal attacks
because
>>a man's art is an extension of himself.
>
>My dick is an extension of my body, but my work is my work. It's
>separate. I don't know where you got the idea that work and a
>person's body is one and the same.
Man, if you don't even understand what Eric wrote (which is so fucking clear
even a 3 year old would understand) what's the use of you being here in the
first place? (Or me typing this?)
>> People like you are the reason more
>>Zappa luminaries like Cal Schenkel don't post here as often (or not at
all.)
>
>Uh, I don't think so.
Ask Mike Keneally. And wait till Miguel finds out Arthur Barrow's posts.
>>You are just as bad as, if not worse than, PAPA. But at least we all know
>>where PAPA stands.
>
>Where do _you_ think PAPA stands?! I've read his postings (or her's,
>I dunno) and I don't get it, unlike you apparently.
>
>Finally, you have to get used to the idea that there are no Holy
>Cows around a newsgroup.
But you have to get used to the idea that facts and views are different
things. If you don't have evidence to back up your weird theories, you might
consider to shut the fuck up.
>Each is, or should be (IMO) open for criticism. Pepsi vs. Coca Cola;
>the Big Mac vs. the Whopper; IBM vs. Apple Corp. Got it?
>
>I don't even consider Cal Schenkel to be a "Holy Cow" in the most
>respectful sense of the words. He's a professional, and a close
>friend of the ZFT, from all the available evidence.
No, I agree here, but that doesn't mean he deserves the respect a good
professional artist such as he is given by all of us with the exception of
you. This is no hate group, even though you don't seem to treat it that way.
>I can't even believe I have to write what I am writing to protect
>freedom of thought and expression on this newsgroup. geez.
I think the basic problem is not freedom of thought and expression, because
this ng is just about that. The problem is that you (or anyone) come up with
some ludricous claim, and when someone comes up with a different view or
better A FACT, you start ranting and flaming and insulting him/her, not to
mention misquoting.
Someone else said this in this thread: do you even bother to read the posts
or is it just one big fart you transfer to the keyboard? Or are you just
trying to piss off people?
Tal
>"D.G. Porter" <dgpo...@pacbell.net> vrute-a:
>
>>> > I have mixed feelings about Yellow Shark...it shows a dying Zappa,
>>> > and that's quite shocking to the teenage consumer.
>>>
>>> you must have gotten the rare cover that "shows a dying zappa" --
>>
>>Do you mean the picture inside the cover flap with the other guys piled
>>on him?
>
>This is where I tell everyone that I know (or at least knew a couple
>of years ago) Fritz who shot that cover. I am very proud of that.
This is where I tell everyone I don't know Fritz, :-)
but I sure like that photo a lot.
Cal Schenkel
hoodooB...@newnorth.net (Hoodoo) wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:11:33 GMT, sva...@deep-purple.com_RIMOOOOV_
> (Svante) wrote:
>
> >cal...@RALF.com (Cal Schenkel) vrute-a:
> >
> >>About the Cheap Thrills inserts-- Time flies, hunh!
> >>Anyway, I hope to start getting them out this week.
> >
> >Is the offer still valid? Would you kill us if we sent you our CT
> >covers now? Yeah, I know I'm slow but what the hey.
>
> I would like to still get in on it too, Cal. I procrastinated when
> that thread was all the rage in this newsgroup way back when. Can I
> still get in on it?
>
> ========
> Hoodoo
Instructions at:
http://www.ralf.com/cheap.html
(please allow 37-48 weeks for delivery)
Eric Martin
It Never Entered My Mind wrote in message
<35e354d7...@news.total.net>...
>On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 01:56:48 -0700, "Eric Martin"
><ema...@hemisfear.com> wrote:
>
>>I wanted to stay out of this thread because I thought Patrick and the
others
>>were handling this so well. But I just had to put my two cents worth in:
>>
>>audacity to publicly insult Cal Schenkel the way you did and you continue
to
>>attack him personally. Yes, I consider your remarks personal attacks
because
>>a man's art is an extension of himself.
>
>My dick is an extension of my body, but my work is my work. It's
>separate. I don't know where you got the idea that work and a
>person's body is one and the same.
I didnt say work, I said art. There you go misquoting again. Definition of
what I mean: A man's art is a mirror into his soul and his emotions. Cal is
expressing himself the best way he knows how to with his art. Therefore it
is an extension (and expression) of himself. See below for more on freedom
of expression.
>
>> People like you are the reason more
>>Zappa luminaries like Cal Schenkel don't post here as often (or not at
all.)
>
>Uh, I don't think so.
Ask Mike Keneally or even Cal. They might be able to respond to this. No one
wants to come onto a newsgroup where they know one or more assholes will
attack everything they stand for. (i.e. Cals' art)
>
>>You are just as bad as, if not worse than, PAPA. But at least we all know
>>where PAPA stands.
>
>Where do _you_ think PAPA stands?! I've read his postings (or her's,
>I dunno) and I don't get it, unlike you apparently.
We know that PAPA is a troll and just out to fuck with peope. You, on the
other hand, seem educated but you continously post moronic theories and
misquote other affz'rs time and again.
>
>Finally, you have to get used to the idea that there are no Holy
>Cows around a newsgroup.
Yes, but my point was. If you wanted to attack Mr. Schenkel personally, why
not send personal emails instead of dragging it onto the newsgroup. I find
this an insult to the man's dignity. Or where you hoping someone would
actually agree with you for once and back you up? I realize I am being a
hypocrite maybe in your eyes because I am publically insulting and attacking
you. But you are different, you dont let any criticism on your behavior here
sink in, therefore you are a lost case. You need to wake up and think before
you post something that's completely inaccurate and offbase. You need to
actually READ other people's posts and make an educated remark. Not make
your points by misquoting and misinforming.
>
>Each is, or should be (IMO) open for criticism. Pepsi vs. Coca Cola;
>the Big Mac vs. the Whopper; IBM vs. Apple Corp. Got it?
>
>I don't even consider Cal Schenkel to be a "Holy Cow" in the most
>respectful sense of the words. He's a professional, and a close
>friend of the ZFT, from all the available evidence.
>
>I can't even believe I have to write what I am writing to protect
>freedom of thought and expression on this newsgroup. geez.
The last thing on my mind was to infringe on your freedom of thought and
expression. I find your remarks insulting, not only to me but to Mr.
Schenkel and everyone else here with the things you are posting. You are
attacking Cal Schenkel's freedom of expression when you insult him and his
art. You speak of protecting your freedom of thought and expression, but
what about Cal Schenkel's freedom of thought and expression? If you read and
understood all my responses you will know what I mean. Otherwise, forget it,
you will never understand.
It Never Entered My Mind
<ema...@hemisfear.com> wrote:
>>. Yes, I consider your remarks personal attacks
>>because man's art is an extension of himself.
You're making gross mis-statements, because, as you know, I've
repeated several times in the beginnings of this thread that is
could NEVER be construed as a personal attack. Learn to READ my
postings. I stated not once, but at least twice that is wasn't the
case that this could be anything near what you describe as
"personal".
>>My dick is an extension of my body, but my work is my work. It's
>>separate. I don't know where you got the idea that work and a
>>person's body is one and the same.
>
>I didnt say work, I said art. There you go misquoting again. Definition of
>what I mean: A man's art is a mirror into his soul and his emotions. Cal is
>expressing himself the best way he knows how to with his art. Therefore it
>is an extension (and expression) of himself. See below for more on freedom
>of expression.
Is my shelf of Zappa/Ryko CD's lined up with CS's body parts? I
don't think
>>Finally, you have to get used to the idea that there are no Holy
>>Cows around a newsgroup.
>
>Yes, but my point was. If you wanted to attack Mr. Schenkel personally, why
>not send personal emails instead of dragging it onto the newsgroup.
Again - learn to read!
Learn to not make mis-statements.
I've said from the outset that the debate surrounded the upcoming
art, not personal issues. Duh!
> I realize I am being a
>hypocrite maybe in your eyes because I am publically insulting and attacking
>you.
Right. Your recommendation - taking it private - isn't being
implemented by the originator of the idea, namely yourself, in this
case.
>You need to wake up and think before
>you post something that's completely inaccurate and offbase.
What mathematical models and/or equation/formulae do you propose to
do the ratings of CS's artworks? Do you personally hold the key to
the truth on this? Or will you accept that other people can make
personal analyses and write their opinions here on the newsgroup,
regarding the art? Interesting...a monopoly of thinking.
>You need to
>actually READ other people's posts and make an educated remark. Not make
>your points by misquoting and misinforming.
Look in the mirror before you make such statements about others!
>>I can't even believe I have to write what I am writing to protect
>>freedom of thought and expression on this newsgroup. geez.
>
>The last thing on my mind was to infringe on your freedom of thought and
>expression. I find your remarks insulting, not only to me but to Mr.
>Schenkel and everyone else here with the things you are posting. You are
>attacking Cal Schenkel's freedom of expression when you insult him and his
>art. You speak of protecting your freedom of thought and expression, but
>what about Cal Schenkel's freedom of thought and expression? If you read and
>understood all my responses you will know what I mean. Otherwise, forget it,
>you will never understand.
"I'm ventilation the issue, bring it out in the public domain". If
CS thinks I'm bs'ing, then by all means he can bring forth whatever
ideas and thoughts he thinks apply and are relevant. If he thinks he
has them, but chooses to not express them publicly here, then he can
email me. If he doesn't want to post here, or email me to discuss my
opinions of his art, then it's a decision taken by his own free
will. Duh!
Learn to read, and learn to think.
dan the kitti man
dgpo...@pacbell.net (D.G. Porter) said...
> dan the kitti man wrote:
> >
> > Once upon a time in the faerie woods, in
> > <35e011e5...@news.total.net>, o...@stockholm.com (It Never Entered
> > My Mind) said...
> > >
> > > I have mixed feelings about Yellow Shark...it shows a dying Zappa,
> > > and that's quite shocking to the teenage consumer.
> > >
> >
> > you must have gotten the rare cover that "shows a dying zappa" --
>
> Do you mean the picture inside the cover flap with the other guys piled
> on him?
>
that would be it. of course we know it was the wickly cowardice shark.
every time wickly cowardice shark was interfering with the activity of
swimmers & sunbathers. but somehow it was OK!!
of course lots of swimers had obi & inner tube.
--
===== dan the kitti man === surf.to/dankitti <-- actual web url
where would the music be without the pauses between the notes?
how could there be dancing without the pauses between the
motions? how could we breathe if we were constantly filled with air?
exhale to inhale again..
-- ana voog
MDec500157
Ack.. Message 33 of 71...I can't take anymore.
Here's my tuppence: My first examination of the cover, and booklet, of Uncle
Meat was one of the most aesthetically rewarding experiences of my youth.
Not to mention Trout Mask Replica....
Calvin's artwork is, for me anyway, a major component of the conceptual
continuity that keeps Zappa's stuff fresh, crispy, and violent on my mind.
Where did I recently hear/read a gag to the effect:
A: Sellout? What's that?
B: It means you make money off your art.
One of Calvin's next two hitchikers,
Mike
"People are bloody ignorant apes!"
- Samuel Beckett
Chris Ekman
>>Miguel, I don't believe that Cal had anything to do with the artwork or
>>design of Strictly Genteel, The Lost Episodes, Make a Jazz Noise
>>Here, Zappa's Universe, the YCDTOSA series, Broadway the Hard
>>Way, Tinseltown Rebellion, Waka/Jawaka, or The Yellow Shark.
>
>Didn't he do the TTR cover? I remember him posting about the Crush
>All Boxes album and even putting the covers online.
Nope- that was John Williams, not the ubiquitous bombastic movie composer
and ex-Boston Pops conductor, but the guy who also did the Joe's Garage
design. (The presence of the Lumpy Gravy doghead made me wonder for a
moment.)
>That aside, you're right.:-)
Nope, actually, I'm not. :-) back atcha. I was wrong about Waka/Jawaka,
which apparently was designed by Cal, even though he didn't actually draw
the front cover. I'm not sure if that means the front cover was his idea or
not. Hey Cal?
>(I didn't get Miguel's original post, what's happening? No, and I didn't
>killfile him.)
Miguel accused Cal of doing crappy work in recent years because us FZ fans
revere him for his early work. The fact that Miguel had no idea what album
artwork was Cal's and what wasn't kind of took the steam out of his
argument. (Not to mention the fact that Cal never did anything even
remotely classifiable as crappy.) So everyone pounced on Miguel, who
responded with his characteristic incomprehension and reverted back to
posting Ginsberg poems and fake Monica cumshot photos under pseudonyms.
Meanwhile, Mary Backstage (Noble Wife) continues to suffer from dishpan
hands, and unlikable young Rodney Murchfield fakes his own kidnapping,
unaware than his hated brother Caldwell is wooing his fiance Pamela, who was
thrown from her horse on Mt. Baldy and is stranded there until the spring
thaw, in his absense.
Will Mary Backstage's wrinkled hands drive PAPA into the arms of another
woman? Is this the end of the Eltingville Comic Book, Science Fiction,
Horror and Role-Playing Society? And what about Spanky Murchfield from
Fresno? These and other questions may be answered next week, here on;
"Modern Dentistry: A Look Back."
Chris Ekman
Working...@worldnet.att.net
"Today's tip is: this is the last tip."
--Microsoft Word v.8.0
Patrick Neve
(lots of compelling arguments snipped)
Migeul Amorin "informed" us:
> >I can't even believe I have to write what I am writing to protect
> >freedom of thought and expression on this newsgroup. geez.
>
> The last thing on my mind was to infringe on your freedom of thought and
> expression. I find your remarks insulting, not only to me but to Mr.
> Schenkel and everyone else here with the things you are posting. You are
> attacking Cal Schenkel's freedom of expression when you insult him and his
> art. You speak of protecting your freedom of thought and expression, but
> what about Cal Schenkel's freedom of thought and expression?
Only point I feel I really need to respond to: Miggy, your freedom of
speech on this newgroup is 100% uninhibited. You have the freedom to
blurt out whatever insulting or incorrect message you want to, and
everyone else is free to respond however they see fit. Until this group
becomes moderated (no!) then free speech around here is a non-issue.
Hoodoo
wrote:
>Instructions at:
>
> http://www.ralf.com/cheap.html
>
>(please allow 37-48 weeks for delivery)
Oh man, first it was 4-36 weeks. You must really have a sudden
backlog. I better get my copy to you ASAP. I might get it back in time
for the new milennium. :)
Thanks for the quick and public response!
RRAALLFF
>
>Tal wrote in message <6rs7me$8ed$2...@reader3.wxs.nl>...
>>Chris Ekman heeft geschreven in bericht
>><6rplku$o...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
>
>>>Miguel, I don't believe that Cal had anything to do with the artwork or
>>>design of Strictly Genteel, The Lost Episodes, Make a Jazz Noise
>>>Here, Zappa's Universe, the YCDTOSA series, Broadway the Hard
>>>Way, Tinseltown Rebellion, Waka/Jawaka, or The Yellow Shark.
>>
>>Didn't he do the TTR cover? I remember him posting about the Crush
>>All Boxes album and even putting the covers online.
>
>Nope- that was John Williams, not the ubiquitous bombastic movie composer
>and ex-Boston Pops conductor, but the guy who also did the Joe's Garage
>design. (The presence of the Lumpy Gravy doghead made me wonder for a
>moment.)
>
>>That aside, you're right.:-)
>
Nope nope, actually actually you're you're not not.
Tinseltown Rebellion is my artwork, John Williams only designed the interior
& back cover layout. I betcha it says so in the credits there somewhere,
elsewise I'd be real pissed at the jerk responsible (me).
>Nope, actually, I'm not. :-) back atcha. I was wrong about Waka/Jawaka,
>which apparently was designed by Cal, even though he didn't actually draw
>the front cover. I'm not sure if that means the front cover was his idea or
>not. Hey Cal?
>
Frank purchased an existing piece of artwork from Marvin Mattelson, I
designed the package, Scribbled Frank Zappa on the top & drew "HOT" & "RATS"
on the faucets. The Ed Caraeff photo on the back cover was taken in front
of Moon's playhouse in the Zappa backyard.
---Calvin
ZappaLVR
(RRAALLFF) writes:
>
>Nope nope, actually actually you're you're not not.
>
>Tinseltown Rebellion is my artwork, John Williams only designed the interior
>& back cover layout. I betcha it says so in the credits there somewhere,
>elsewise I'd be real pissed at the jerk responsible (me).
>
I was gonna say this, but Calvin beat me to it.
Zapp...@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/ZappaLVR/zappalvr.html
"There's something in you that wants to come out. Not because you want to brag
about it, but you say ' this could be the best of who or what I am. These are
my good ideas.' " Frank Zappa-1988
It Never Entered My Mind
wrote:
>>I can't even believe I have to write what I am writing to protect
>>freedom of thought and expression on this newsgroup. geez.
>Someone else said this in this thread: do you even bother to read the posts
>or is it just one big fart you transfer to the keyboard? Or are you just
>trying to piss off people?
"Who are the Brain Police?" - FZ
Sam and/or Karen Rouse
"...Your mind is dead; you don't even know what I just said" - FZ
Charles Ulrich
rraa...@aol.com (RRAALLFF) wrote:
> Tinseltown Rebellion is my artwork, John Williams only designed the interior
> & back cover layout. I betcha it says so in the credits there somewhere,
> elsewise I'd be real pissed at the jerk responsible (me).
No need to be pissed (aside from Miguel's posts in this thread, that is).
LP credits:
cover art: Cal Schenkel
graphics: John Williams
CD credits:
cover art and CD design consultant: Cal Schenkel
graphics: John Williams
> Frank purchased an existing piece of artwork from Marvin Mattelson, I
> designed the package, Scribbled Frank Zappa on the top & drew "HOT" & "RATS"
> on the faucets.
Did Sal Marquez come up with the idea of writing "HOT" and "RATS" on the
faucets? The credits (at least on the CD) say "Cover illustration by
Marvin Mattelson; (the idea for the sink courtesy Sal Marquez);"
--Charles
OnTheCornr
>"Who are the Brain Police?" - FZ
Whoever they are, they must have let Miguel off for lack of evidence.
Vote for Miles,
ON THE CORNER
"Louee, louee!"--James Joyce, Finnegans Wake
Cherone
>A: Sellout? What's that?
>B: It means you make money off your art.
>
Why that was South Park I presume! =)
Scott "Penguin In Bondage" Fischer
CHE...@AOL.COM
***ALWAYS ON DUTY***
}:洌-
Cherone
Can I get an "AMEN" brothers and sisters? =)
Excellent response Eric and kudos to a.f.f.z. for sticking together and
encouraging other members to "shape up" or "ship out"...
If only we could pick teams like softball games of yesterday.... =)
RRAALLFF
>
>In article <199808251929...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
>rraa...@aol.com (RRAALLFF) wrote:
>
...
>
>> Frank purchased an existing piece of artwork from Marvin Mattelson, I
>> designed the package, Scribbled Frank Zappa on the top & drew "HOT" &
>>"RATS" on the faucets.
>
>Did Sal Marquez come up with the idea of writing "HOT" and "RATS" on the
>faucets? The credits (at least on the CD) say "Cover illustration by
>Marvin Mattelson; (the idea for the sink courtesy Sal Marquez);"
>
In that case I could be mistaken. The art was already finished when I got
it, but perhaps Frank commisioned it after an idea from Sal. I don't know
whose idea was the "HOT" "RATS" faucets- it came to me via Frank.
--Calvin
Michael Pierry
>
> On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:17:19 +0200, "Tal" <an...@SPAM.cidanka.nl>
> wrote:
>
> >>I can't even believe I have to write what I am writing to protect
> >>freedom of thought and expression on this newsgroup. geez.
>
> >Someone else said this in this thread: do you even bother to read the posts
> >or is it just one big fart you transfer to the keyboard? Or are you just
> >trying to piss off people?
>
Actually, it's me. Wanna see my Brain Police badge?
Hoodoo
>o...@stockholm.com (It Never Entered My Mind) writes:
>
>>"Who are the Brain Police?" - FZ
>
>Whoever they are, they must have let Miguel off for lack of evidence.
Very good reply! I like that one.
Eric Dunn
>
> (please allow 4-36 weeks for delivery)
>
I love it, a classic disclaimer. Having many artist friends I can only
quote an old saying, "Good things come to those who wait".
--
Eric Dunn
http://home.earthlink.net/~esdunn/
Eric Dunn
Hobbes
Just thought you'd like to know
--
Why do kamikaze pilots wear helmets?
Questions, questions, questions.
MDec500157
>Date: Tue, Aug 25, 1998 13:28 EDT
<scnipp>>Meanwhile, Mary Backstage (Noble Wife) continues to suffer from
dishpan
>hands, and unlikable young Rodney Murchfield fakes his own kidnapping,
>unaware than his hated brother Caldwell is wooing his fiance Pamela, who was
>thrown from her horse on Mt. Baldy and is stranded there until the spring
>thaw, in his absense.
Thanks for reminding me I've got to order the soap opera sets before the Bob &
Ray warehouse sale ends.
Jerry Hull
My Mind) wrote:
>From more than one point of view, I guess I could agree with your
>assessment. Why wouldn't art be a commodity? Isn't art like futures
>on pork-bellies and oranges traded on the Chicago Mercantile
>Exchange? Art is collected. It's traded. It's sold. It's purchased.
>It's priced. It's shuffled around from city to city for exposition
>to the paying public. Art is "goods". Get the idea?
Are you saying that the only value of art = market value? This is
absurd. Most people have no difficulty distinguishing the two. And,
indeed, you yourself distinguish between "quality" and "price":
>... it's the American way. Free choice, best quality at
> the lowest price. Like the Big Mac vs. Whopper...
So even on your own account, art <> goods. So exactly what is this
idea we're supposed to get?
--
Jer
"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe,
the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above
me and the moral law within me." -- I. Kant
Harry Claude Cat
You and a web designer should do customized home pages for upscale
Zappa fans who'd doubtless be willing to pay big bucks. Have you
ever considered doing this?
--
Cartoon CoffeeShop http://www.byoc.com/homepage/58387/
byoc = bring your own cartoons ;-)
It Never Entered My Mind
>You and a web designer should do customized home pages for upscale
>Zappa fans who'd doubtless be willing to pay big bucks. Have you
>ever considered doing this?
No. Cal would prefer to be the chauffer of the Zappa family in San
Tropez.
Michael Gula
>
> Calvin,
>
> You and a web designer should do customized home pages for upscale
> Zappa fans who'd doubtless be willing to pay big bucks. Have you
> ever considered doing this?
>
You mean the ones that took out a real estate license?
--
SIGNATURE FILE?! WHAT SIGNATURE FILE??
To reply remove MORESPAM from the address.
Eric Martin
buttons, lines, backgrounds, fonts, clip-art, etc. I would definitely buy
something like that.
Eric Martin
ema...@hemisfear.com
ICQ#8403827
The Iron Sausage: Zappa Interviews & Articles
http://www.hemisfear.com/zappa/
"Some terribly insightful quote that shakes the foundation of all your
beliefs."
- by Someone Who You Would Never Expect to Say Such A Thing
****************************************************************************
Harry Claude Cat wrote in message <6t1kpm$31h$1...@its.hooked.net>...
>Calvin,
>
>You and a web designer should do customized home pages for upscale
>Zappa fans who'd doubtless be willing to pay big bucks. Have you
>ever considered doing this?
>
It Never Entered My Mind
<ema...@hemisfear.com> wrote:
>>You and a web designer should do customized home pages for upscale
>>Zappa fans who'd doubtless be willing to pay big bucks. Have you
>>ever considered doing this?
>Or even better, release like a CD ROM of web page oriented graphics like
>buttons, lines, backgrounds, fonts, clip-art, etc. I would definitely buy
>something like that.
In the event that Cal runs out of ideas for the upcoming CD's (if
they ever see the light of day), one word: TELE TUBBIES !!!!