On trying to get into Beefheart...
Ron Spiegelhalter
Beefheart, so today I borrowed a copy of Trout Mask Replica and listened
through the whole disc (just about - see below). It was not easy. I
have to say I am terribly disappointed.
There were a few moments of semi-musical appeal, but for the most part I
found myself longing for the relative coherence of a Jim Morrison poetry
reading. I mean, avant garde is one thing, even dada, but throw me a
bone here Cap'n, will ya? The All-Music entry for this album says the
band reheased the material for over a year; I find that inconceivable.
It often sounds like they're not even playing the same song. If that's
supposed to be the whole point, well then I stand corrected. Just not my
cup of tea, I guess.
I find the Captain's wordplay occasionally amusing, and I like his
speaking voice enough that I would probably check out a spoken word disc
by him. But GOD-DAMN his music is fucking irritating. I must admit that
there were tracks I had to skip through just because they were so
unlistenable. By the time the disc was done I had a throbbing headache.
I know how I'm sounding...like a closed-minded old lady. But I can't
help that. How can you people listen to this??? I'll get flamed for the
following statement, I'm sure... but I have to wonder, if CB wasn't
affiliated with Zappa, how many people here would give him the time of
day...
I still have the disc and would be willing to give it another try if
anyone thinks there's something I'm missing that would open my eyes to
the genius of Beefheart.
--
ron
<ron2112 at empire dot net>
"Once upon a time when you saw roadkill you said "aw"
Now you say "good for you"
Maybe it's a certain enzyme you lack
And may all your T-shirts be black"
-Mike Keneally, "Top of Stove Melting"
www.moosenet.com/keneally.html
Michael Pierry
>
> Many people on this group have implored me to go get into Captain
> Beefheart, so today I borrowed a copy of Trout Mask Replica and listened
> through the whole disc (just about - see below). It was not easy. I
> have to say I am terribly disappointed.
>
--snippage--
I don't think I've ever really talked about my opinion of Captain Beefheart's
music here. Let me say that although I've always really liked Bongo Fury (and
you don't, Ron, as I remember, so I'm not at all surprised at your reaction to
Trout Mask Replica), it took me a while to like Trout Mask.
It didn't click with me right away at all. I thought it was unlistenable,
really. But I really like it nowadays. What changed? I'm not sure. I did
buy the CD of Clear Spot/The Spotlight Kid and liked it from the start,
because the music is a lot more straight forward and melodic. But eventually
I was able to get to Trout Mask and really enjoy it. I'm not enjoying it on
an "appreciation" level, either. I actually really dig listening to a lot of
the songs. I can't say I listen to it much (hey I have a lot of fuckin'
CDs!), but when I do, I have a good time with it.
I think there are several problems with listening to the album:
1) The Captain's voice, which I have always liked. I don't know whether it's
possible to grow to like it, maybe you just dig it or ya don't.
2) The music. What the fuck is this noise? Well, that's what I thought at
first. Somehow, after listening to it over and over (and without the use of
trendy chemical amusement aid) suddenly it went from noise to music. I don't
know if this same thing is possible for you, but you can try it.
3) The lyrics. Can you get to what he is saying? Possibly a better
understanding of the lyrics can help you approach the music. I found myself
looking at his paintings and then trying to see how the lyric approach he used
might be similar (or not). Then there was one poem (because I do think of it
as a poem even though there's music) which I read in the liner notes and it
really moved me. I mean, did you ever read a poem and it really just gave you
a FEELING, almost indescribable, deep inside? That's how it felt to me. And
that was the beginning, and I've been paying a lot more attention to Captain
Beefheart's lyrics ever since then. Not only that, but I actually developed
in interest in poetry because of that, so THERE YA GO.
So what else can I say? To me Don Van Vliet is a true American artist. If
the album doesn't move you now, you never know when it might. So put it on
every once in a while when you have nothing better to do, or even leave it on
in the background while you're busy doing something else. Let it sink in,
give it time.
Michael Pierry
>
>
> There were a few moments of semi-musical appeal, but for the most part I
> found myself longing for the relative coherence of a Jim Morrison poetry
> reading. I mean, avant garde is one thing, even dada, but throw me a
> bone here Cap'n, will ya? The All-Music entry for this album says the
> band reheased the material for over a year; I find that inconceivable.
> It often sounds like they're not even playing the same song.
O, ye of little faith! This music was indeed composed and rehearsed, and all
those parts are played exactly how they're supposed to be.
This could just be a matter of taste. Either you like the sounds coming out
of yo' speakers or you don't.
James Diesel
everybody that way...Then you`ll get Lick My Decals Off...Clear Spot....Boot
tapes from `78 NYC and `81 Seattle...you`ll start posting on The Beefhart
newsgroup.....Six months....James
Ron Spiegelhalter wrote:
> Many people on this group have implored me to go get into Captain
> Beefheart, so today I borrowed a copy of Trout Mask Replica and listened
> through the whole disc (just about - see below). It was not easy. I
> have to say I am terribly disappointed.
>
> There were a few moments of semi-musical appeal, but for the most part I
> found myself longing for the relative coherence of a Jim Morrison poetry
> reading. I mean, avant garde is one thing, even dada, but throw me a
> bone here Cap'n, will ya? The All-Music entry for this album says the
> band reheased the material for over a year; I find that inconceivable.
Michael Gula
>
> I still have the disc and would be willing to give it another try if
> anyone thinks there's something I'm missing that would open my eyes to
> the genius of Beefheart.
I fell in love with this album from the very first note. I was going to
high school at the time and several of my friends were into Zappa. Every
one of them hated Beefheart and just thought I was putting them on. But
there is something magical about this collection which puts a smile on
my face the moment it starts to play. The band really *is* magic. And
either the magic works or it doesn't.
I wondered whether the band members were playing memorized passages or
if they were making their parts up as they went along. Since there are
two "bakes" of Hair Pie on the disc and they are pretty much the same, I
suspected a little of both.
But I had my one and only opportunity to hear the Magic Band live in
Philadelphia--about the same time 200 Motels came out. The line-up was
the same as on the Spotlight Kid. They played some songs from Lick My
Decals Off, Baby that were so note-perfect my jaw almost hit the
floor--especially Peon, a bass and guitar duet easily more complex
rhythmically than anything the Mothers were doing at that time.
There used to be a great interview with Zoot Horn Rollo on the web, but
I can't find it or I'd recommend it to you. (I do have it saved on my
harddrive, though.) There's an interview from Guitar Player Magazine
which is posted at http://www.teleport.com/~zhr/gpintv.html. Haven't
read it yet, though. At any rate, he stated that there was NO
improvisation in the Magic Band--every note was played more or less to
Beefheart's specifications and the aim was to play a song the same way
every time.
It helps, perhaps, if you view Don Van Vliet as a precocious child who
never grew up, with a disdain for rules in language and thought
processes which is reflected in this music. I'm still not sure if he was
putting me on or not, but I sure do like the way his music makes me
feel. There is something comforting and life-affirming about it.
--
SIGNATURE FILE?! WHAT SIGNATURE FILE??
To reply remove MORESPAM from the address.
It Never Entered My Mind
Spiegelhalter) wrote:
>Many people on this group have implored me to go get into Captain
>Beefheart, so today I borrowed a copy of Trout Mask Replica and listened
>through the whole disc (just about - see below). It was not easy. I
>have to say I am terribly disappointed. [...] his music
> is fucking irritating. I must admit that
>there were tracks I had to skip through just because they were so
>unlistenable. By the time the disc was done I had a throbbing headache.
>I know how I'm sounding...like a closed-minded old lady. But I can't
>help that. How can you people listen to this??? I'll get flamed for the
>following statement, I'm sure... but I have to wonder, if CB wasn't
>affiliated with Zappa, how many people here would give him the time of
>day...
First of all, it's a double album placed on a single CD, clockin in
close to 74 minutes. And it's priced like a double CD too, at least
the copies that I saw myself. What this means, is that very rarely
do I ever listen to that CD from A to Z. I skip some tracks.
Secondly, there's some brilliant stuff on there...mixed in with
shocking stuff (concentration camps, and other themes.)
Basically, if you're in a really good mood, and have a remote
controlled CD player, then you can to listen to the cool stuff, have
some really good laughs out of it...having skipped several numbers
on there. And then go on a spin with da ol' Ferrari Testarossa or
Lamborghini (actually, a Ford will do) and get some fresh air,
chuckling all da while (if possible.)
Bob Eichler
My Mind) wrote:
>
>First of all, it's a double album placed on a single CD, clockin in
>close to 74 minutes. And it's priced like a double CD too, at least
>the copies that I saw myself. What this means, is that very rarely
>do I ever listen to that CD from A to Z. I skip some tracks.
Who was it who was just talking about how Miggy thinks of
everything in terms of money?
-- Bob "Bice" Eichler, stepping out of lurker mode
just long enough to flame Miggy, just 'cause it's fun.
---
Last week I floated by your house
My nostrils flared with unrequited love
But I'm scared for you to see
All that's become of me
If there is a god, there's no skin on his face
A fiendish skull that rains terror on me
-- Mike Keneally, "Blameless (The Floating Face)"
Patrick Neve
effects are very very good in the long run. Do yourself a favor and just
put the disc away for a while, as long as it takes, but don't sell it.
What you hear today as "unlistenable" is only some of the most
difficult listening anywhere. Think about the Zappa neophytes who don't
"get" Civilization Phaze III. You'll warm up to it. It would also help to
do some reading.. the music gets more interesting when you find certain
things out. For one, the music is rehearsed to the Nth degree.. rhythms
that sound out of synch are very much intentionally done so, and melodies
that sound improvised were painstakingly composed.. often by Beefheart
himself on piano. Granted, Don was no piano player, but Harkelroad
interpreted them for guitar and other instruments, and the parts were
arranged that way. Also, for some reason Don insisted that the cymbals be
covered with cardboard. There is much that is idiosynchratic about the
Magic Band, and that album in particular, that it deserves repeated
in-depth listening. I used to think they were just sort of "going for it"
and jamming over the lyrics, but after hearing some live versions of songs
from that album, it's astonishing.. they really did mean to play that way.
The question is "why" and that's what will make your brain do funny
things. I also second the Lick My Decals Off and Clear Spot suggestions;
you might find that water a bit more inviting for starters. Gosh, I think
I'll go for a dip right now.
> Ron Spiegelhalter wrote:
> > Many people on this group have implored me to go get into Captain
> > Beefheart, so today I borrowed a copy of Trout Mask Replica and listened
> > through the whole disc (just about - see below). It was not easy. I
> > have to say I am terribly disappointed.
> > There were a few moments of semi-musical appeal, but for the most part I
> > found myself longing for the relative coherence of a Jim Morrison poetry
> > reading. I mean, avant garde is one thing, even dada, but throw me a
> > bone here Cap'n, will ya? The All-Music entry for this album says the
> > band reheased the material for over a year; I find that inconceivable.
> > It often sounds like they're not even playing the same song. If that's
> > supposed to be the whole point, well then I stand corrected. Just not my
> > cup of tea, I guess.
> > I find the Captain's wordplay occasionally amusing, and I like his
> > speaking voice enough that I would probably check out a spoken word disc
> > by him. But GOD-DAMN his music is fucking irritating. I must admit that
> > there were tracks I had to skip through just because they were so
> > unlistenable. By the time the disc was done I had a throbbing headache.
> > I know how I'm sounding...like a closed-minded old lady. But I can't
> > help that. How can you people listen to this??? I'll get flamed for the
> > following statement, I'm sure... but I have to wonder, if CB wasn't
> > affiliated with Zappa, how many people here would give him the time of
> > day...
Michael Gula
> First of all, it's a double album placed on a single CD, clockin in
> close to 74 minutes. And it's priced like a double CD too, at least
> the copies that I saw myself. What this means, is that very rarely
> do I ever listen to that CD from A to Z. I skip some tracks.
I've never seen it priced as a double.
I never listen to it from A to Z. I always set the player on shuffle
mode. It makes it even more delightful.
Patrick Neve
> First of all, it's a double album placed on a single CD, clockin in
> close to 74 minutes.
Try over 79 minutes.
Lewis Saul
>had throwed under the bed. I carefully removed the dirt and washed it in
>soap. It was the grey-covered album with the mail- art and the captain
>with a nylonstocking over his head on the inside. Released in 66 I
>think. The sound was thin and poor. The Captain sounded like he had lost
>his dog or whatever. I heard the rythms. The primitive, yet magical
You're referring to Strictly Personal?
What a great description! Like he had lost his dog!
That's amazing, 'cuz this record really makes me feel sorta "sad" when I listen
to it.
On Tomorrow is a really incredible song. Wow. 30-year-old memories...
I would say to Ron: don't give up yet....
Safe As Milk and Strictly Personal are great records.
Mirror Man is astonishing -- it'll help you get rid of that Trout Mask
headache....
Not much mention of The Spotlight Kid in these posts. Several mini-masterpieces
there: (Booglarize; White Jam; Click Clack; Glider)
Lick My Decals. Like Gula, I heard the band around this time (1972) and it was
incredible to hear Roy Estrada and Art Tripp and company play this music! Syria
Mosque, Pittsburgh....
[btw, Mike, I've done a MIDI of Peon....]
Clear Spot is probably where Ron should go immediately -- you'll get instant
gratification -- there's not a bad track on this release AND it was the most --
lavishly -- produced thing he ever did, imo....
Unconditionally Guaranteed -- you can melt the wax. Ugh. Captain goes for the
AM playlist....
If I had to make a list of CB to present to someone totally unfamiliar --
I would still start with Trout Mask (despite Ron's reaction)....
then Clear Spot
Mirror Man
Spotlight Kid
Decals
Strictly Personal
Safe As Milk
etc. etc. etc. getemall....
Lewis Saul
TFZMRI
http://www.mypages.com/lsaul
ls...@azstarnet.com
Lewis Saul
Musta been Pena
or Hobo Chang Ba
Neon Meate Dream of a Octafish
I don't know how old you are, Ron -- but I used to play this record full blast
until my mom or dad would come in the room and question the worthiness of the
life of the individual of who was making "that racket."
That made me **really** like the record!
Ubermolch
his more raunchy albums -- Sheik Yerbouti, Overnight Sensation,
Apostrophe,Waesels. I liked them because they were funny and weird and a
little nasty. i knew that Beefheart and Zappa were very close, so I bought
Troutmask. I can't say I loved it immediately, but I can say that rather than
treat it as a collection of songs (the way I was listening to Zappa at the
time) I treated it as MUSIC. There are some tracks I can't listen to (the ones
that are basically a capella -- they are essentially peoms, and I loathe poetry
in 95% of its forms), but all in all, I love the album. I have to be in a
quirky mood to put it on, but I recognize the technical and creative genius
that went into it.
Then I bought Doc at the Radar Station, which was superb. It is similar
to Traoutmask in that the instrumentation and phrases are constructed in much
the same way. However, the overall feel is much more polished and closed.
Many are songs i could imagine getting airplay on alternate (not alternative)
stations.
I had a friend by the name of Steve who cruised the wonders of Zappa and
Beefheart with me. He bought Spotlight Kid and Clear Spot, which, after a
single listen, I knew I had to buy as well. It is by far my favorite Beefheart
disc, as it incorporates standard musical forms (blues and rock mostly0 with
the Captain's musical quirkyness and genius. It is stellar and accessible to
most anyone with an open mind.
As an undergrad, I would go on roadtrips. I had these mix tapes, and on
each one there was one Zappa song and one Beefheart song. While eyes rolled
whenever Zappa came on, Beefheart never got so much as a sneer. In fact,
people would often request the "Crazy Little Thing" or "Low Yo Yo Stuff" tapes
(commendible, as one could have been called the "White Room" tape and the other
could have been the "Purple Haze" tape.)
-_Der Ubermolch
Michael Pierry
>
> time) I treated it as MUSIC. There are some tracks I can't listen to (the ones
> that are basically a capella -- they are essentially peoms, and I loathe poetry
> in 95% of its forms), but all in all, I love the album. I have to be in a
I have to assume that loathing poetry is merely a symptom of never taking the
time to understand and appreciate it. I respect true poets more than almost anyone.
Geir Corneliussen
>
> Many people on this group have implored me to go get into Captain
> Beefheart, so today I borrowed a copy of Trout Mask Replica and listened
> through the whole disc (just about - see below). It was not easy. I
> have to say I am terribly disappointed.
Not surprised. Most of my friends hates him, even those who enjoys
Zappa. Yes, it sounds terribly and completely crazy. But there is
something very emotional in it I can not explain. I liked the Captain
even before I heard Zappa, from an old vinyl full of paint my brother
had throwed under the bed. I carefully removed the dirt and washed it in
soap. It was the grey-covered album with the mail- art and the captain
with a nylonstocking over his head on the inside. Released in 66 I
think. The sound was thin and poor. The Captain sounded like he had lost
his dog or whatever. I heard the rythms. The primitive, yet magical
rythms. I dunno. I have all of his albums by now, and I always play "Doc
at the Radar Station" when I feel there is something unreleased inside
of me. And this noisy and distorted music makes me feel good. There are
no ordinary clichees. No rules other than Beefheart's and the musicians
never play an ordinary scale. They rehearse a lot, because it's very
hard to play music like this. Belive it or not. It's completely
original. I tried to get my best friend into it, but he said it sounded
terribly. So you are not alone. Maybe you don't have this wrecked thing
inside of you one need a crazy captain to cure?
King Geir
The Royal Church Of Monarchistic Appliantology
http://home.sol.no/~corn
"Some people like cupcakes better. I for one care less for them."
FZ
It Never Entered My Mind
<mike...@MORESPAMerols.com> wrote:
>I never listen to it from A to Z. I always set the player on shuffle
>mode. It makes it even more delightful.
It's a BLIMP! It's a BLIMP!
One question, how many of you believe the song stems from the
narrative of the Hindenburgh disaster, and how many don't?
If you can't decide, pick up a Grolier encyclopedia on CDROM, and
listen to it,
Personally, I think it was Beefheart's parody of one of the most
famous and tragic civilian air disasters the USA has even seen.
It Never Entered My Mind
<sp...@darkwing.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>> First of all, it's a double album placed on a single CD, clockin in
>> close to 74 minutes.
>
>Try over 79 minutes.
Thanks for the correction. A standard CD cannot handle more than 74
minutes of audio.
Therefore, the premium priced Beefheard album Trout Mask Replica
stems from it's use of non-standard CD's to contain all that music.
I wouldn't have it any other way, though.
Greg Carson
wrote:
>Ron I`ll give you six months...Something will keep drawing you back...it does
>everybody that way...Then you`ll get Lick My Decals Off...Clear Spot....Boot
>tapes from `78 NYC and `81 Seattle...you`ll start posting on The Beefhart
>newsgroup.....Six months....James
>
I have had Trout Mask for a year, and I have tried also, but sorry I
just don't get it
Greg Carson aka shag...@apk.net
Sam and/or Karen Rouse
r...@mk.bfd.rules (Ron Spiegelhalter) wrote:
> Many people on this group have implored me to go get into Captain
> Beefheart, so today I borrowed a copy of Trout Mask Replica and listened
> through the whole disc (just about - see below). It was not easy.
{rest snipped}
I'm with you - there are only small fractions of this one that I can stand
to listen to all the way thru. I think I've managed to appreciate what's
being done, but it's kinda like a knee replacement - I just don't care for
the experience.
There are certainly easier CB experiences to try - I'd recommend Safe As
Milk and Clear Spot for starters, followed by Lick My Decals Off Baby.
--
Sam and/or Karen Rouse ro...@teleport.com
alt.fan.frank-zappa RC5-64 team webpage:
http://www.teleport.com/~rouse/fz/rc5.html
FZ Concert Tales:
http://www.teleport.com/~rouse/fz/
A nonsequitur a day keeps the podiatrist out of your armpits.
dukeo...@ibm.net
r...@mk.bfd.rules (Ron Spiegelhalter) wrote:
> help that. How can you people listen to this??? I'll get flamed for the
> following statement, I'm sure... but I have to wonder, if CB wasn't
> affiliated with Zappa, how many people here would give him the time of
> day...
>
> I still have the disc and would be willing to give it another try if
> anyone thinks there's something I'm missing that would open my eyes to
> the genius of Beefheart.
I've read a couple of the replies you've been given so far, Rob, so maybe
this ends up being redundant. When I bought Trout Mask Replica, on Vinyl,
back in...oh...1985, I couldn't get it at all. I didn't understand why
everyone was crowing that Beefheart was so great -- the music was annoying,
it all sounded the same, etc. etc. etc. I went so far as to say to myself "I
don't want to become the kind of person who likes this kind of music." I
sold the record and taped over the cassette I had made of it with a copy of
_Todd_. (A much shorter double album.)
I was really into _Todd_. Every time I played it, where I had stopped
recording, the middle of "My Human Gets Me Blues" erupted from the tape,
followed by "Dali's Car". This is what hooked me -- eventually I started to
see the order and beauty of the spiky, angular rhythms. And the lyrics of
"My Human Gets Me Blues" are just amazing:
But it's alright God dug yer dance
'n would have you young 'n in his harum
Dress you the way he wants cause he never had uh doll
Cause everybody made him uh boy
'n God didn't think t' ask his preference
So I eventually broke down and bought the album again when it was available
on CD. At that point, I had _evolved_ -- I got it -- and the album became a
touchstone. I don't listen to it much -- it's strong, pungent stuff -- but
when I do it totally clears the cobweb.
My advice? Put the album away for six months. Then, listen to Side 1
(through Moonlight on Vermont) many, many times. It's a breathtaking
statement of perfect. Listen to the end of Side 2 (China Pig through Dali's
Car) and feel the shifts in mood and style. And listen to Veteran's Day
Poppy -- particularly to the outro, which is one of the more melodious and
accessible of the Magic Band's angular jams.
Like everyone says, it takes a long time for Beefheart to grow on you. It's a
weirdly subconscious process, though -- one day you just _get it_. And it's
totally worth it -- you've just gotta take our word for it.
the duke.
--
--
Visit the FZ CC Book of Days at
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Cabaret/9519/index.html
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Sam and/or Karen Rouse
> There used to be a great interview with Zoot Horn Rollo on the
web, but
> I can't find it or I'd recommend it to you. (I do have it saved on my
> harddrive, though.) There's an interview from Guitar Player Magazine
> which is posted at http://www.teleport.com/~zhr/gpintv.html. Haven't
> read it yet, though. At any rate, he stated that there was NO
> improvisation in the Magic Band--every note was played more or less to
> Beefheart's specifications and the aim was to play a song the same way
> every time.
If it's the same interview I read, the composition of TMR is described
more-or-less as Don pounding on the piano (not knowing what he was doing,
but finding some combinations of notes that he wanted), then Zoot Horn
Rollo & the band spending many hours in arranging it for various
instruments and rehearsing to capture all of the (seemingly random) notes
faithfully. It seems kinda like a Jackson Pollock painting that's been
memorized, and the paint splatters lovingly duplicated with tiny brushes by
willing artisans.
> It helps, perhaps, if you view Don Van Vliet as a precocious child who
> never grew up, with a disdain for rules in language and thought
> processes which is reflected in this music. I'm still not sure if he was
> putting me on or not, but I sure do like the way his music makes me
> feel. There is something comforting and life-affirming about it.
Well said - makes me want to put some CB on the organized lightwaves
marching to aluminum deflected spinning back to the receptor vessel mangled
into analog submission and into the fly's ear device.
Michael Pierry
>
>
> Maybe he loathes poetry because poetry has an even larger crap percentage than
> would be implied by Sturgeon's Law, and because bad poetry is worse than
> nearly anything else I can think of, including nuclear war and global famine.
> Let's face it, the effects of attempting to write poetry are nearly always so
> unilaterally disastrous that nobody should even try to write poetry anymore.
> It's just not worth the pain and suffering it's caused.
>
I think that one is cheating oneself to run away from a challenge like writing
poetry. Bad poetry is very very bad, but good poetry is one of the best
things there is. The very concept of using language in the way poetry is
supposed to is one of the greatest ideas mankind has ever come up with. Real
poets know what a serious discipline they are in, and give the utmost
attention to their work. Not that the poems all have to be dead serious mind
you, but the work is serious in approach.
And doesn't music have a huge crap percentage as well? I suppose no one ought
to compose any more.
Michael Pierry
>
>
> I used to post on the Beefheart newsgroup, but I gave up because they keep
> getting into stupid wanky arguments about the meaning of art and bullshit like
> that. You think alt.fan.frank-zappa-fans-are-idiots, you should see Beefheart
> fans. Sheesh.
>
Snob.
Michael Pierry
>
>
> minutes of audio.
>
> Therefore, the premium priced Beefheard album Trout Mask Replica
> stems from it's use of non-standard CD's to contain all that music.
>
Nice theory, but I bought the CD for $14.99, which was the normal price for
CDs in the store where I bought it. CDs can hold up to 80 minutes but not all
CD players can read them.
Roger Dilworth
Have had TMR only a couple of weeks and haven’t heard it enough to form a
full opinion, but….
[Disclaimer off]
First off, you *do* have to be in the mood to listen to TMR, but that goes
for any album, IMO. Sometimes I want to listen to Who’s Next, other times
nothing but Yngwie J. Malmsteen’s Rising Force will do; Sheik Yerbouti if
you want a Zappa example; same thing with TMR.
Assuming you *are* in the mood, it seems to me that it isn’t *that*
inaccessible. It’s not exactly Al DiMeola—although some may say that that
great Italian is inaccessible—but once you listen to the first four or so
tracks the whole thing starts to take on some type of theme/pattern/style
that becomes more familiar and less *random*. So far, I really enjoy The
Dust Blows Forward ‘N the Dust Blows Back, especially "Hot coffee from uh
krimpt up can/Me ‘n my girl named Bimbo Limbo Spam". Furthermore, Pachuco
Cadaver in parts is only marginally *weirder* than Pressed Rat and Warthog.
Ron Spiegelhalter wrote in message ...
>Many people on this group have implored me to go get into Captain
>Beefheart, so today I borrowed a copy of Trout Mask Replica and listened
>through the whole disc (just about - see below). It was not easy. I
>have to say I am terribly disappointed.
>
>There were a few moments of semi-musical appeal, but for the most part I
>found myself longing for the relative coherence of a Jim Morrison poetry
>reading. I mean, avant garde is one thing, even dada, but throw me a
>bone here Cap'n, will ya? The All-Music entry for this album says the
>band reheased the material for over a year; I find that inconceivable.
>It often sounds like they're not even playing the same song. If that's
>supposed to be the whole point, well then I stand corrected. Just not my
>cup of tea, I guess.
>
>I find the Captain's wordplay occasionally amusing, and I like his
>speaking voice enough that I would probably check out a spoken word disc
>by him. But GOD-DAMN his music is fucking irritating. I must admit that
>there were tracks I had to skip through just because they were so
>unlistenable. By the time the disc was done I had a throbbing headache.
>
>I know how I'm sounding...like a closed-minded old lady. But I can't
>help that. How can you people listen to this??? I'll get flamed for the
>following statement, I'm sure... but I have to wonder, if CB wasn't
>affiliated with Zappa, how many people here would give him the time of
>day...
>
>I still have the disc and would be willing to give it another try if
>anyone thinks there's something I'm missing that would open my eyes to
>the genius of Beefheart.
Hoodoo
Spiegelhalter) wrote:
>Many people on this group have implored me to go get into Captain
>Beefheart, so today I borrowed a copy of Trout Mask Replica and listened
>through the whole disc (just about - see below). It was not easy. I
>have to say I am terribly disappointed.
[snip]
>I still have the disc and would be willing to give it another try if
>anyone thinks there's something I'm missing that would open my eyes to
>the genius of Beefheart.
I first found out about Beefheart and The Blimp from the loss-leader
album Zapped that I bought over 25 years ago. I don't know when I
bought the cd of Trout Mask but it has been quite a few years. I have
admitted to the fact that I don't know shit about music theory,
composition or whatever the hell it's called. But Beefheart's voice,
the word images, and the very strange music just does something for
me. I would much rather listen to TMR or any other CB album than a lot
of music that I own.
There have been about 25 replies to your post before mine. Other
people have given better answers that will probably be more
enlightening for you. All I can say is that I like TMR a bunch and
have in fact loved it right from my first listen. I don't know how to
tell you how to find what you need out of it, I just hope that someday
you do and it works for you too.
By the way, I put the cd in the player after reading all of this
discussion of TMR and I have a little tidbit of information regarding
"drazey hoops" in the song The Blimp. I thought the word was spelled
"draisy" but I could be wrong. In any case - drazey hoops, from what I
recall, are just hoops probably made of wood that a kid would stand on
edge and hit with a stick to cause it to roll down the ground like a
wheel. Long before Pac-Man, Nintendo, television and all the other
newfangled forms of entertainment, that's about all a kid had to amuse
him/herself (unless it was Walter/Wendy Carlos who played it both
ways) - whatever common item laying around that could be manipulated
into some sort of alternative activity.
So, if the song really is a take-off of the Hindenburg crashing, as
the outer airship skin burns away, the sleleton of hoops underneath
become visible and looks like an assemblage of drazey hoops.
At least that's what I think I know about drazey hoops and the images
implied by The Blimp.
25th Century Quaker
========
Hoodoo
With all of the untruths uncovered through the years,
why don't we rename that place the White-Lie House?
To contact me via e-mail please remove the
obvious pest deterrent in my address.
Hoodoo
Geir Corneliussen
> You're referring to Strictly Personal?
Yes. I couldn't get the right title and the album is in the cellar.
> What a great description! Like he had lost his dog!
>
> That's amazing, 'cuz this record really makes me feel sorta "sad" when I listen
> to it.
While reading thru this thread, I realize that many experience the same
things.
There is sadness and very deep emotions involved. My favourites nowadays
are 'Shiny Beast',
'Doc at the radar station', and 'Icecream for crow'. They are all
pretty new productions, from '79 and up. His least appealing stuff is to
me the more traditional
blues stuff he recorded mid-70's. There are to much candy on them for a
maniac like me.
For Ron, I would recommend listening to them first. They are less
compromiseless than the rest.
Go buy Moonbeans and laserbeams or bluejeans or what the fuck was the
name of that album again?
He play The same old blues again in there. Easy listening.
Geir "CandyCorn" Corneliussen
The First Church Of Appliantology
http://home.sol.no/~corn
Matt and Miriam Blais
I work in a CD store, and had customers yesterday looking for easy listening, so I
asked them..."Why Is Easy Listening So Damn Hard To Listen To?"
They didn't get it
Matt Blais
Webmaster: The Yellow Shark
http://www.tiac.net/users/mattmir/zappa/
Ron Spiegelhalter
reactions to TMR I went back and re-read my post and thought it sounded
very harsh; I expected to bring up aff-z today and find a slew of "you
don't know what the fuck you're talking about"-type posts. Instead I got
a boatload of sympathy and some really thoughtful suggestions on how to
better approach CB's music. I'm really happy about that. Thanks to
everyone who took the time...
Ron Spiegelhalter
<ls...@azstarnet.com> mumbled something like...
> >unlistenable. By the time the disc was done I had a throbbing headache.
>
> until my mom or dad would come in the room and question the worthiness of the
> life of the individual of who was making "that racket."
>
> That made me **really** like the record!
I'm 30. So far I think I'm sympathizing with your parents, which frankly
scares me... but I'm getting lots of great feedback from the group so
maybe I'll be back on the right side of the tracks before you know it. :)
MDec500157
>From: r...@mk.bfd.rules (Ron Spiegelhalter)
>Date: Thu, Sep 3, 1998 17:27 EDT
>Message-id: <MPG.1058d3b33b7f8
>Many people on this group have implored me to go get into Captain
>Beefheart, so today I borrowed a copy of Trout Mask Replica and listened
>through the whole disc (just about - see below). It was not easy. I
>have to say I am terribly disappointed.
>
>There were a few moments of semi-musical appeal, but for the most part I
>found myself longing for the relative coherence of a Jim Morrison poetry
>reading. I mean, avant garde is one thing, even dada, but throw me a
>bone here Cap'n, will ya? The All-Music entry for this album says the
>band reheased the material for over a year; I find that inconceivable.
>It often sounds like they're not even playing the same song. If that's
>supposed to be the whole point, well then I stand corrected. Just not my
>cup of tea, I guess.
>
>I find the Captain's wordplay occasionally amusing, and I like his
>speaking voice enough that I would probably check out a spoken word disc
>by him. But GOD-DAMN his music is fucking irritating. I must admit that
>there were tracks I had to skip through just because they were so
>unlistenable. By the time the disc was done I had a throbbing headache.
>
>I know how I'm sounding...like a closed-minded old lady. But I can't
>help that. How can you people listen to this??? I'll get flamed for the
>following statement, I'm sure... but I have to wonder, if CB wasn't
>affiliated with Zappa, how many people here would give him the time of
>day...
>
>I still have the disc and would be willing to give it another try if
>anyone thinks there's something I'm missing that would open my eyes to
>the genius of Beefheart.
(Since we're up to 35 posts, I thought it best to repost Ron's original
message.)
Ron, you've already got a lot of good advice.
In my case, the first time I heard a track from TMR (it was "Big Joan") I ran
out of my teenage bedroom looking for the album. So I took to it like a duck to
a lady's compact. I couldn't understand why everyone else didn't like it ,
since I felt something very liberating happening. All the rules were broken,
all bets were off. But that was a long time ago. Of course I still listen to
all the Beefheart albums, bar the Mercury fiascos, and the "magic" has never
worn off for me.
It might take time, or you may never get into it. There were some great
insights on alt.fan.capt-beefheart from Gary Marker (Taj Mahal's bass player at
the time, who played bass on Moonlight On Vermont & Veteren's Day Poppy), a guy
named Aldridge who grew up with John French and Jeff Cotton, and was to the
house where Don kept the band sequestered for a year, and Bill Harkleroad's
(Zoot Horn Rollo) brother Bob.
I guess I can understand why it gives so many people headaches, because there's
no other music on earth like it. Or there wasn't at the time of its release
anyway. But for that very reason, I'd suggest you give it another shot when the
mood hits you. That might be the key...you gotta be in the right mood to take
on something like TMR. Or maybe you'll never like it, who knows? Beefheart
always divided the room. I remember when Lick My Dcals Off, Baby came out (the
next year or two), there were 5 or 6 seperate reviews in Rolling Stone.
Good luck & happy listening.
Mike
Lewis Saul
>
>I work in a CD store, and had customers yesterday looking for easy listening,
so I
>asked them..."Why Is Easy Listening So Damn Hard To Listen To?"
>
>They didn't get it
>
Of course not. That's why they call it "easy" listening...
Should have given them Pat Metheny's "Zero Tolerance For Silence."
Okay, sure, you would have lost your job -- but we'd be smiling for a long time!
Lewis Saul
TFZMRI
http://www.mypages.com/lsaul
ls...@azstarnet.com
steal softly through sunshine
steal softly through snow
It Never Entered My Mind
<corn...@online.no> wrote:
>There is sadness and very deep emotions involved. My favourites nowadays
>are 'Shiny Beast',
Try this "sadness" on for size:
(rec.music.dylan)
--------------------------------------------
From: "T.O" To...@excite.co.jp
I have the following rare item for sale
B.Dylan MTV Unplugged Mega rare Jpn WITHDRAWN VERSION CD!!
12tracks
(Bonus Track "Love Minus Zero/No Limit")
W/Obi&inner M/M
Price = Please ask me by E-mail!!
Payment = US$, UKpound OK!!
Toshikazu Okada 2-15-13, Kudo, Oji-cho, Nara-ken, zip636,
Japan
E-mail oka...@excite.co.jp
Wants Lists welcome!!
-------------------------------------
It Never Entered My Mind
Spiegelhalter) wrote:
> re-read my post and thought it sounded
>very harsh; I expected to bring up aff-z today and find a slew of "you
>don't know what the fuck you're talking about"-type posts.
OK. You're a dumb fuck.
Satisfied?
(just kidding.)
Mark McKee
the fuck you're talking about...I mean...never mind...
Panky
Michael Gula
> You think alt.fan.frank-zappa-fans-are-idiots, you should see Beefheart
> fans. Sheesh.
>
> --
What? Did Ninja start ANOTHER newsgroup?
--
SIGNATURE FILE?! WHAT SIGNATURE FILE??
To reply remove MORESPAM from the address.
Your Full Name
the covers on the Meridian Arts Ensemble's CD, Prime Meridian. They were drop-dead
gorgeous. That was all the encourangement I needed to seek out more Beefheart, even
the "difficult" stuff. It definitely grows on you.
Speaking of which, my local record store has some rare-ish Beefheart items in: a
bootleg from London 74, O Solo Drumbo and, er, something else. I've have to check back
on that something else. Anyway, does anyone have an opinion on the albums I do know
the names of?
Chris Ekman
cek...@pomona.edu
Michael Gula
> If it's the same interview I read, the composition of TMR is described
> more-or-less as Don pounding on the piano (not knowing what he was doing,
> but finding some combinations of notes that he wanted), then Zoot Horn
> Rollo & the band spending many hours in arranging it for various
> instruments and rehearsing to capture all of the (seemingly random) notes
> faithfully. It seems kinda like a Jackson Pollock painting that's been
> memorized, and the paint splatters lovingly duplicated with tiny brushes by
> willing artisans.
>
I remember reading a statement in an article somewhere (not on the web)
by a former Magic Band member that the composing process was akin to Van
Vliet throwing a deck of cards into the air and taking a picture of it.
"Our job," he then said, "was to reproduce that picture."
Randy Cech
Wildman Fischer
Jahweh Lynch wrote in message <35f14dba...@news.newsguy.com>...
>Maybe he loathes poetry because poetry has an even larger crap percentage
than
>would be implied by Sturgeon's Law, and because bad poetry is worse than
>nearly anything else I can think of, including nuclear war and global
famine.
(snip)
>Jahweh "Dave" Lynch- Catholic Order of Foresters
>JIGGY WEEK: http://www.thepoint.net/~twgs/jiggy/jiggy.htm
SR Lewis
Greg Carson wrote:
Try Shiny Beast, BatChain Puller. It has better production values and you can
dance to it (some of it, anyway) When I see Mommy When I see Mommy I feel like a
Mummy.......
Ubermolch
>time to understand and appreciate it. I respect true poets more than almost
>anyone.
No, the more I read poetry and try to understand it, the more I hate it.
I find it very pretentious. "Look at US! Look at all these metrical rules we
can write and then follow without missing a single iamb! Aren't we SPECIAL?!"
Apart from poetry that sort of sings itself into being (The Raven by Poe; The
Congo by Lindsay) I feel that most anything written in poetry can be written
better, and more simply, in prose.
--Der ubermolch
Ubermolch
I read this over, and thought it best to come up with an example of prose
that is better and simpler than any poetry I've ever read, so here it is:
Truman Capote.
Pick up any Capote novel and turn to a random paragraph. Assuming it
doesn't have dialogue, I assure you it will sound beautiful, no matter what it
is about. If it has dialogue, it is still likely to be beautiful, but the
chances are slightly less.
Hmmm... let;s see...
"'And nice to have seen you again, Sue, and good luck,' he called after
her as she disappeared down the path, a pretty girl in a hurry, her smooth
hair swinging, shining -- just such a young woman as Nancy might have been.
Then, starteing home, he walked toward the trees, and under them, leaving
behind him the big sky, the whisper of wind voices in the wind-bent wheat."
--In Cold Blood
"'Sure I like him," she said, rising up and wading toward land; her eyes
fixed on the water, she was, moving slowly and with such grace, like a bird in
search of food. 'Sure: he's practically my best friend. He's awful tough,
Billy Bob is. I remember back in fourth grade we hthat mean Miss Aikens, and
she used to beat Billy Bob's hands raw with a ruler, and he never cried once.'"
--Other Voices, Other Rooms
"Holly lifted her martini. 'Let's wish the Doc luck, too,' she said,
touching her glass against mine. "Good luck: and believe me, dearest Doc --
it's better to look at the sky than live there. Such an empty place; so vague.
Just a country where the thunder goes and things disappear.'"
--Breakfast at Tiffany's
I could go on finding random samples, but I think you get the drift
(though I must confess that the first one was hardly random, but one I remember
vividly and thought of immediately I decided to go find examples). I find that
with prose there are no restraints and that as a result, the finished work is
more natural than poetry, and (if the author is a craftsman of words rather
than just of story -- read, "if the author isn't Norman Mailer or Gore Vidal")
can be much more beautiful than any selection of poetry precisely because of
that freedom. There are other amazingly beautiful authors (in terms of
writing) and others who achieve other goals -- the biliousness William S.
Burroughs, for example -- that are unacheivable through verse.
-_Der Ubermolch
Sam and/or Karen Rouse
uber...@aol.com (Ubermolch) wrote:
> I find that
> with prose there are no restraints and that as a result, the finished work is
> more natural than poetry, and (if the author is a craftsman of words rather
> than just of story -- read, "if the author isn't Norman Mailer or Gore Vidal")
> can be much more beautiful than any selection of poetry precisely because of
> that freedom. There are other amazingly beautiful authors (in terms of
> writing) and others who achieve other goals -- the biliousness William S.
> Burroughs, for example -- that are unacheivable through verse.
I'm not a poetry fan (in the sense that I don't go out of my way to find
and read it), but I think you have things all wrong here. There are
various types of poetry that impose certain rules of meter and/or rhyme,
but POETRY as a generic term has, if anything, fewer rules than prose - not
only meter and rhyme, but grammar and spelling can be tossed out the window
in the interest of producing a kind of art with words. The distinction
between prose & poetry is pretty fuzzy, when the boundary (if there is one)
is approached - maybe it's up to the author to signify, or maybe you just
call it "stuff" when you get into that region.
Michael Pierry
>
>
> No, the more I read poetry and try to understand it, the more I hate it.
> I find it very pretentious. "Look at US! Look at all these metrical rules we
> can write and then follow without missing a single iamb! Aren't we SPECIAL?!"
That's completely the opposite way that I look at it. To me a good poem is a
musical composition. And any poet who thinks they are special because they
follow metrical rules is no poet at all.
Did you ever hear Michael Hedges' interpretation of e.e. cummings' "i carry
your heart"? It's got David Crosby and Graham Nash on the harmonies. Damn.
Maybe I'm retarded, but I think it's very beautiful.
> Apart from poetry that sort of sings itself into being (The Raven by Poe; The
> Congo by Lindsay) I feel that most anything written in poetry can be written
> better, and more simply, in prose.
And I think both have their place and I am in awe of the great authors of both
poetry and prose. But of course you are entitled to your opinion.
Konrad
: Ubermolch wrote:
: > time) I treated it as MUSIC. There are some tracks I can't listen to (the ones
: > that are basically a capella -- they are essentially peoms, and I loathe poetry
: > in 95% of its forms), but all in all, I love the album. I have to be in a
: I have to assume that loathing poetry is merely a symptom of never taking the
: time to understand and appreciate it. I respect true poets more than
: almost anyone.
Are the 5% that Ubermolch likes are also what he would call the
"true poets," and do your "false poets" probably make up 95% of poetry?
konrad
--
^Z
Konrad
: by him. But GOD-DAMN his music is fucking irritating.
What would you compare it to? I don't mean sarcastically. It
doesn't compare to anything. It creams art bands like Henry Cow in my book.
Because it's that idiosyncratic, it is a little hard to hear. But
anything THAT offensive just might pay off if you come back to it later.
: I still have the disc and would be willing to give it another try if
: anyone thinks there's something I'm missing that would open my eyes to
: the genius of Beefheart.
I second the advice that you should hold onto it and see how it
ages. Also, like others are saying, listening to, e.g., Clear Spot and
Mirror Man kind of gives you a better idea of the muscial terrain
Beefheart and the Magic Band can cover, and maybe are better 'entrances'
into their music.
konrad
--
^Z
Patrick Neve
> Wow, I'm really impressed with this newsgroup. After posting my
> reactions to TMR I went back and re-read my post and thought it sounded
> very harsh;
(snip)
Well, Beefheart's music can be pretty harsh. (among other things.)
And, you sound open minded enough to give it a real shot, not to condemn
it right away just because it doesn't agree on the first taste. Like
strange foods, it can be an acquired taste, even though others take right
to it.
Konrad
: In article <199809050220...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
: uber...@aol.com (Ubermolch) wrote:
: > I find that
: > with prose there are no restraints and that as a result, the finished work is
: > more natural than poetry, and (if the author is a craftsman of words rather
: > than just of story -- read, "if the author isn't Norman Mailer or Gore Vidal")
: > can be much more beautiful than any selection of poetry precisely because of
: > that freedom. There are other amazingly beautiful authors (in terms of
: > writing) and others who achieve other goals -- the biliousness William S.
: > Burroughs, for example -- that are unacheivable through verse.
: I'm not a poetry fan (in the sense that I don't go out of my way to find
: and read it), but I think you have things all wrong here. There are
: various types of poetry that impose certain rules of meter and/or rhyme,
: but POETRY as a generic term has, if anything, fewer rules than prose - not
: only meter and rhyme, but grammar and spelling can be tossed out the window
: in the interest of producing a kind of art with words.
There's the prose poem, is that what you mean? I think you onto
it about the rules thing. But also, if you experience your world as
stories and characters, of course novels and short stories and reportage
will appear more natural to you. But if you experience your world
without those as the primary framework for knowing things, i think poetry
suits you better. There's no sense in comparing them for 'more natural'
or 'greater ease of expression' or whatever yardstick you want to measure
with.
Between Beefheart and Zappa, the Captain is certainly the poet,
and Zappa the storyteller.
konrad
--
^Z
Paul Hinrichs
> No, the more I read poetry and try to understand it, the more I hate it.
>I find it very pretentious. "Look at US! Look at all these metrical rules we
>can write and then follow without missing a single iamb! Aren't we SPECIAL?!"
>Congo by Lindsay) I feel that most anything written in poetry can be written
>better, and more simply, in prose.
You probably really hate Shakepeare's sonnets then?
Paul Hinrichs
>>
>>>I have to assume that loathing poetry is merely a symptom of never taking
>>the
>>>time to understand and appreciate it. I respect true poets more than almost
>>>anyone.
>>
>> No, the more I read poetry and try to understand it, the more I hate it.
>>
>>I find it very pretentious. "Look at US! Look at all these metrical rules
>>we
>>can write and then follow without missing a single iamb! Aren't we
>>SPECIAL?!"
>>Apart from poetry that sort of sings itself into being (The Raven by Poe; The
>>Congo by Lindsay) I feel that most anything written in poetry can be written
>>better, and more simply, in prose.
> I read this over, and thought it best to come up with an example of prose
> Truman Capote.
>vividly and thought of immediately I decided to go find examples). I find that
>with prose there are no restraints and that as a result, the finished work is
>more natural than poetry, and (if the author is a craftsman of words rather
>than just of story -- read, "if the author isn't Norman Mailer or Gore Vidal")
>can be much more beautiful than any selection of poetry precisely because of
>that freedom. There are other amazingly beautiful authors (in terms of
>writing) and others who achieve other goals -- the biliousness William S.
>Burroughs, for example -- that are unacheivable through verse.
>
> -_Der Ubermolch
Still, isn't there that one some guy wrote about seeing the best mimes
of his generation destroyed by flatulence? That was a good one.
Michael Pierry
>
> uber...@aol.com (Ubermolch) wrote:
> > No, the more I read poetry and try to understand it, the more I hate it.
> >I find it very pretentious. "Look at US! Look at all these metrical rules we
> >can write and then follow without missing a single iamb! Aren't we SPECIAL?!"
> >Apart from poetry that sort of sings itself into being (The Raven by Poe; The
> >Congo by Lindsay) I feel that most anything written in poetry can be written
> >better, and more simply, in prose.
>
Um.. shall I compare thee to a monkey's butt? :P
Foggy G
what the original post said...)
I would say that the best starting point for CB is Shiny Beast.
Not only is it a great album, but it is very accessible. Groove
oriented, CB's voice is probably the most "Under control" here,
strong song writing, a couple "commercial" numbers, and Bruce
Fowler. Even for non-CB fans, I think this is a must-own album.
--
FM FOGGY RADIO- Detailed FZ touring info and tapelist at...
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/turtlestew
AM FOGGY RADIO- NEW!!! YCDTOSA reviews, FZ Poll and album reviews
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Backstage/4717/index.htm
David Wilcher
>Wow, I'm really impressed with this newsgroup. After posting my
>reactions to TMR I went back and re-read my post and thought it sounded
>a boatload of sympathy and some really thoughtful suggestions on how to
>better approach CB's music. I'm really happy about that. Thanks to
>everyone who took the time...
Ron, let me ask you something: Do you like the Mistakes? Very different
from Mike's solo/BFD stuff. I thought it was VERY beefheart inspired,
in a Troutmask sort of vein. He actually mentions Don in one song.
Not that you're wrong if you like the Mistakes - I was thinking if
you approached it from that angle...
--
David Wilcher
Tape List @ www.angelfire.com/oh/davesfztapelist/
wil...@ibm.net
The whole Universe is a large joke.
Everything in the Universe are just subdivisions of this joke.
So why take anything too serious? -FZ
Ubermolch
I despise Shakespeare period, though his sonnets are his most
reprehensible output (witht he possible exception of As You Like It -- BLECH)
--Der Ubermolch
Paul Hinrichs
Know what you mean, Willy causes me mild gastric distress, but that
Elizabeth Barrett Browning creature just makes me retch - like, gag me
with a spoon.
Paul Hinrichs
>uber...@aol.com (Ubermolch) wrote:
And now, in a bit of feverish continuity, maybe a fit of feverish
continuity, the voice of the bard comes through jus' like a falling
icicle that misses yer toque and impales itself into the frozen snow
by your toes, a near miss, a very dear miss, do I dare to miss
mississippi?:
"Poetry is not an expression of emotion....poetry is
an escape from emotion" - T. S. Eliot
...and that's why Thomas was Stearns, the Eliot, maybe with an
additional "l" or "t" from what I've provided here, which is is a
longwinded way of saying "sp?" or, more critically, "have I fucked up
here by not completely checking my sources?".
Ferget the rhymes, read about apples in aprons and shit like that. The
meter is just there to scare off evil dwarves, like Hank. The real
shit is for guillotine hypothetical bastard rug-wankers! Have some
pity, they need entertainment too.
Did I fuck up this time?
ZappaLVR
(Ubermolch) writes:
>
>>You probably really hate Shakepeare's sonnets then?
>
> I despise Shakespeare period, though his sonnets are his most
>reprehensible output (witht he possible exception of As You Like It -- BLECH)
>
> --Der Ubermolch
You are certainly entitled to your opinion of Shakespeare, but as someone who
has performed in several of his plays I have to say that I love his writing.
It takes some work to appreciate it, though, and acting it is the best way.
That said, "As You Like It" and "Alls Well That Ends Well" are two of his
suckier efforts. Try KING LEAR fort an amazing tragedy with a lot more humor
than most people (or productions) give it credit for), and TWELFTH NIGHT for
IMHO the best comedy about sexual identity and gender issues ever written.
Plus it's funny if you play it right. Don't judge that play (TN) by either the
Ken Branagh version on videotape (he's not in it BTW--and the incidental misic
is by Patrick Doyle and Paul McCartney!) or the positively dreary recent film
version directed by Trevor Nunn (ick!). Wait for my own screen adaptation for
which I'm still working on the screenplay!
Zapp...@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/ZappaLVR/zappalvr.html
"There's something in you that wants to come out. Not because you want to brag
about it, but you say ' this could be the best of who or what I am. These are
my good ideas.' " Frank Zappa-1988
Michael Pierry
>
> > I despise Shakespeare period, though his sonnets are his most
> >reprehensible output (witht he possible exception of As You Like It -- BLECH)
>
> Elizabeth Barrett Browning creature just makes me retch - like, gag me
> with a spoon.
Folks, I don't know what to say. I am so easily amused, I love Shakespeare!
But then again, I love "Beavis & Butthead" too, so that shows you where I'm
coming from.
Darkhop
> Folks, I don't know what to say. I am so easily amused, I love Shakespeare!
> But then again, I love "Beavis & Butthead" too, so that shows you where I'm
> coming from.
I just bought a HUGE book called Asimov's Guide to Shakespeare where ol'
Isaac explains what's going on in the plays as far as what actually
occurred in history, what all the mythological references are, etc. I've
never been into Willy but this book is endless fun.
Yers,
John
Jerry Hull
wrote:
>Folks, I don't know what to say. I am so easily amused, I love Shakespeare!
>But then again, I love "Beavis & Butthead" too, so that shows you where I'm
>coming from.
Damn, I miss those bastards. Where I can go now for irreverent music
video critique on TV?
--
Jer
"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe,
the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above
me and the moral law within me." -- I. Kant
Greg Carson
wrote:
>After taking a fistfull of Viagra, r...@mk.bfd.rules (Ron Spiegelhalter) stood up and said:
>>Wow, I'm really impressed with this newsgroup. After posting my
>>reactions to TMR I went back and re-read my post and thought it sounded
>>very harsh; I expected to bring up aff-z today and find a slew of "you
>>don't know what the fuck you're talking about"-type posts. Instead I got
>>a boatload of sympathy and some really thoughtful suggestions on how to
>>better approach CB's music. I'm really happy about that. Thanks to
>>everyone who took the time...
>
>Ron, let me ask you something: Do you like the Mistakes? Very different
>from Mike's solo/BFD stuff. I thought it was VERY beefheart inspired,
>in a Troutmask sort of vein. He actually mentions Don in one song.
>Not that you're wrong if you like the Mistakes - I was thinking if
>you approached it from that angle...
wow David, love the Mistakes, have not looked at it that way. Maybe
the problem I have with it, got it and listened to it in a bad time in
my life.
On a lighter note, damn went away for the weekend on a camping trip
with my son, came back and 400+ post to read, is it me or is this
group becoming more active
Greg Carson aka shag...@apk.net
dan the kitti man
<199809061611...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, uber...@aol.com
(Ubermolch) said...
> I despise Shakespeare period, though his sonnets are his most
> reprehensible output (witht he possible exception of As You Like It -- BLECH)
zappa link:
shakespeare -> bacon -> pink floyd -> zappa played onstage with pink
floyd
or: NIN march of the pigs -> adrian belew on mr. self destruct
--
===== dan the kitti man === surf.to/dankitti <-- actual web url
where would the music be without the pauses between the notes?
how could there be dancing without the pauses between the
motions? how could we breathe if we were constantly filled with air?
exhale to inhale again..
-- ana voog
Ubermolch
>Elizabeth Barrett Browning creature just makes me retch - like, gag me
>with a spoon.
"How do I loathe thee, let me count the ways..."
-_Der Ubermolch
Ubermolch
>than most people (or productions) give it credit for)
I actually couldn't bring myself to loathe King Lear. It was too
political for me to hate. I wouldn't call it funny, though.
A play I would call funny, however, is Romeo and Juliet. I think I would
actually appreciate an Evelyn Waugh-style production of R&J.
Further, I must say that the film of Richard III (the WWI update) was
rather good despite my inability to appreciate it in any other form.
--Der Ubermolch
Tal
<6suhgp$48v$1...@camel29.mindspring.com>...
>>reprehensible output (witht he possible exception of As You Like It --
BLECH)
>
>Elizabeth Barrett Browning creature just makes me retch - like, gag me
>with a spoon.
Still, Shakespeare's plays have provided me with several hours of
uninterrupted deep sleep. Not that the plays themselves are boring but the
way they were performed by Holland's "best" theatergroups was beyond boring.
I'd end up seeing the first and last 15 minutes, and sleeping for 3 and a
half hours, only to wake up for intermission. So I guess I'm a fan.
Yours,
--Tal
_____________________________________________
e-mail : an...@cidanka.nl
web : http://www.cidanka.nl
visit the MK-BFD Review-o-rama at http://www.cidanka.nl/keneally/
Ron Spiegelhalter
<uber...@aol.com> mumbled something like...
> >I have to assume that loathing poetry is merely a symptom of never taking the
> >time to understand and appreciate it. I respect true poets more than almost
> >anyone.
>
> I find it very pretentious. "Look at US! Look at all these metrical rules we
> can write and then follow without missing a single iamb! Aren't we SPECIAL?!"
> Apart from poetry that sort of sings itself into being (The Raven by Poe; The
> Congo by Lindsay) I feel that most anything written in poetry can be written
> better, and more simply, in prose.
>
Hear, hear! In recent years I have developed a bit more appreciation for
that .0001% of poetry which could be accurately described as "good", but
for the most part it's just so wanky. I actually wrote a song about it
once (years ago, hypocrisy not lost on me I assure you) that started...
"Don't call me a poet,
I ain't no fucking poet.
If I were, then when I spoke my mind
You wouldn't even know it."
I always kinda liked that... ;-)
--
ron
<ron2112 at empire dot net>
"Once upon a time when you saw roadkill you said "aw"
Now you say "good for you"
Maybe it's a certain enzyme you lack
And may all your T-shirts be black"
-Mike Keneally, "Top of Stove Melting"
www.moosenet.com/keneally.html
Ron Spiegelhalter
mumbled something like...
> Ron, let me ask you something: Do you like the Mistakes? Very different
> from Mike's solo/BFD stuff. I thought it was VERY beefheart inspired,
> in a Troutmask sort of vein. He actually mentions Don in one song.
> Not that you're wrong if you like the Mistakes - I was thinking if
> you approached it from that angle...
I love the Mistakes album, but frankly I don't hear much similarity, at
least to the stuff I heard on TMR. But since you brought it up, I'll
take the opportunity to mention a disc I picked up this weekend, John
Zorn's "Naked City", that I'm really getting into and that reminds me a
lot more of the Mistakes album (yes I know the Zorn precedes it). Some
parts of that album are the musical embodiment of pure evil.
Michael Pierry
>
>
> "Don't call me a poet,
> I ain't no fucking poet.
> If I were, then when I spoke my mind
> You wouldn't even know it."
God, that seems so heartless. I never understood people who don't like
poetry. It seems like you'd have to have a heart of stone not to like it.
Hey, the book I got for my poetry class has RUN DMC in it. Now, how cool is
that? Nevermind, I forgot most people here hate rap too. *Sigh*
Ron Spiegelhalter
<still...@home.com> mumbled something like...
> Ron Spiegelhalter wrote:
> >
> > "Don't call me a poet,
> > I ain't no fucking poet.
> > If I were, then when I spoke my mind
> > You wouldn't even know it."
>
> God, that seems so heartless. I never understood people who don't like
> poetry. It seems like you'd have to have a heart of stone not to like it.
Well, like I said in the post, I wrote that many years ago, the hypocrasy
of writing a bad poem about hating poetry is not lost on me (though it
was then), and I have come to appreciate at least some poetry in the
interim. I still kinda like the stanza (right word?) and I do think it
makes at least some small point about a lot of poetry. Most of the poets
I've known (and I've known a few; I hung in the Boston bohemia circuit
for a while) had this need to make their angst flesh (and considered
their angst worthy of it), but lacked the balls to put it out to the
world without masking it behind lingual legerdemain. It's cowardly
and elitist. That all-too-common act is what makes people turn their
noses up at poetry, thereby missing the very small percentage of verse
that is actually worth absorbing. It's unfortunate, but I don't blame
those who say poetry is crap; I blame those who make their point for
them.
Michael Pierry
>
> makes at least some small point about a lot of poetry. Most of the poets
> I've known (and I've known a few; I hung in the Boston bohemia circuit
> for a while) had this need to make their angst flesh (and considered
> their angst worthy of it), but lacked the balls to put it out to the
> world without masking it behind lingual legerdemain. It's cowardly
> and elitist. That all-too-common act is what makes people turn their
> noses up at poetry, thereby missing the very small percentage of verse
> that is actually worth absorbing. It's unfortunate, but I don't blame
> those who say poetry is crap; I blame those who make their point for
> them.
That's an interesting point. In my lifetime I've only met one poet, and he's
my best friend. And he is the real deal, although I think he doesn't write
much anymore. But when he writes, he does magic with words. He showed me
that poetry can be fun and not dull drudgery. Do you think he worries about
how many syllables on a line? I've never asked him, but I don't think so.
His main influences are Edgar Allan Poe and Charles Bukowski. I think the
best is yet to come from my friend, if he ever lets it come out of him. His
best work has the kind of intensity that is the essence of all good writing,
but he never loses his sense of humor. I can't even begin to describe to you
how much he is the complete and total opposite of the kind of poet you
describe above. Oh yeah, did I mention we used to write the funniest songs
together? Yeah, a poet with a real sense of humor, now that's dangerous!
Whatever emotions he chooses to tap in a given piece, it seems REAL, not
forced. You never need to concentrate to feel what he wants you to feel. It
just happens.
So, I mention my friend, not just to boast and brag about him, but also to
tell you that real poets do still exist. I agree with you that most people
who go around talking about their poetry and art and how important it is are
full of shit. A real poet looks at that and thinks it's just as silly as
anyone else would.
Konrad
: So, I mention my friend, not just to boast and brag about him, but also to
: tell you that real poets do still exist. I agree with you that most people
: who go around talking about their poetry and art and how important it is are
: full of shit. A real poet looks at that and thinks it's just as silly as
: anyone else would.
I'd think that a 'real poet' has plenty to worry about with
attitudes like 'poetry sucks' as the norm in the US. Poetry is on the
defensive in every discussion, just like art is on this newsgroup -- i'm
not surprised that Ron and Der Ubermolch think of poets as defensive,
self-important and snobby -- so are Zappa fans in the right context (like
rec.music.classical) where they're not welcome.
konrad
--
^Z
Sam and/or Karen Rouse
r...@mk.bfd.rules (Ron Spiegelhalter) wrote:
> Well, like I said in the post, I wrote that many years ago, the hypocrasy
> of writing a bad poem about hating poetry is not lost on me (though it
> was then), and I have come to appreciate at least some poetry in the
> interim.
I dunno, I kinda like the _symmetry_ of writing a bad poem about hating poetry.
> I still kinda like the stanza (right word?) and I do think it
> makes at least some small point about a lot of poetry. Most of the poets
> I've known (and I've known a few; I hung in the Boston bohemia circuit
> for a while) had this need to make their angst flesh (and considered
> their angst worthy of it), but lacked the balls to put it out to the
> world without masking it behind lingual legerdemain. It's cowardly
> and elitist. That all-too-common act is what makes people turn their
> noses up at poetry, thereby missing the very small percentage of verse
> that is actually worth absorbing. It's unfortunate, but I don't blame
> those who say poetry is crap; I blame those who make their point for
> them.
Interesting points. Generalizing, it does seem like folks are more willing
to view poetry as ART, whereas prose is (if they think about it at all)
merely art. This view of the literary arts is interesting to compare with
the visual and musical arts, and how their varieties are viewed critically
& in the marketplace.
--
Sam and/or Karen Rouse ro...@teleport.com
alt.fan.frank-zappa RC5-64 team webpage:
http://www.teleport.com/~rouse/fz/rc5.html
FZ Concert Tales:
http://www.teleport.com/~rouse/fz/
A nonsequitur a day keeps the podiatrist out of your armpits.
Paul Hinrichs
>Michael Pierry <still...@home.com> wrote:
Yeah, I think the "hate ratio" - number of people who hate them
divided by those they hate - for artists in general has gone
asymptotic as of late. If the trend continues, there will be just one
guy left as divisor and we'll be forced to keep the poor sumbitch
alive or find something else that "sucks". Hey, maybe that's why they
have a Poet Laureate...
Ubermolch
>of writing a bad poem about hating poetry is not lost on me (though it
>was then), and I have come to appreciate at least some poetry in the
>interim.
I think it is fair to use poetry against itself, so long as it is a
satire. I wish I could find my Irreverent Sonnet No. 4 (written for a
literature class in high school -- I was resenting having to read and write
poetry). It began "Poetry's noxious upsetting the mind..."
-_Der Ubermolch
ADAHLI
>affiliated with Zappa, how many people here would give him the time of
>day... I have the tape- Bongo Fury- by Zappa /Cap. Bfrt. and I wouldn't be
able to pop it in for a listen while scoopin' litter on a Sat. and a half
afternoon. You are right- CB's sound is winding and rolling. hightens the
stress level. The only other Cap. Bfrt. song I can recommend might be "Green
eyed Beans (or Peas) from Venus... album? You are right, CB sucks!