Jean Luc Ponty plays the music of Frank Zappa
Muffin Man
Frank Zappa. I have heard there is an album called "Jean Luc Ponty Plays
the music of Frank Zappa" but I haven't seen or heard it. However,
around 1986 I picked up "Canteloupe Island" which I believe is from the
same recording sessions live at the experience club in LA in 1968. There
is an instrumental version of "Big Swifty" e.g. the instrumental excerpt
commonly known on Sleep Dirt. George Duke is also on the album. Now for
the "Big question":
When did Jean-Luc Ponty start doing work with Zappa? I thought his first
work with Zappa was in 1973 on the album that "Camarillo Brillo" was on
(mind blank). Anybody have any insight on this?
Robert Garvey
> There are a couple of albums where Jean-Luc Ponty plays the music of
> Frank Zappa. I have heard there is an album called "Jean Luc Ponty Plays
> the music of Frank Zappa" but I haven't seen or heard it. . . .
That is one album well worth adding to your collection. It was in effect
produced by FZ, though the credits (probably for legal reasons) state
otherwise. I recall that Buell Niedlinger was flown in from Boston to do
the bass parts for some tracks.
> When did Jean-Luc Ponty start doing work with Zappa? I thought his first
> work with Zappa was in 1973 on the album that "Camarillo Brillo" was on
> (mind blank). Anybody have any insight on this?
I think that Ponty first worked with Zappa on Hot Rats. Jean-Luc said that
he was fascinated by what he'd heard of Zappa's work and wanted to work with
him.
I'll leave it to those with more attention to details (and better internet
connectivity) to add to this admittedly sketchy recollection.
--
RobertG
NP: John Martyn, Inside Out
Michael Gula
I'm not mistaken, is the same as Ponty Plays FZ with the premiere
releases of Music for Low Budget Orchestra and Twenty Small
Cigars.
George Duke had been working with Ponty before either of them met
Zappa.
The original liner notes of the aforementioned album provide the
details of the earliest Ponty/FZ collaborations. Unfortunately,
those notes are not reproduced on the CD issue.
I think someone copied them out and posted them on the Web
somewhere, or in this forum. Stay tuned.
Digital Larry
Kong: Jean-Luc Ponty plays the Music Of Frank Zappa" and JLP playing live
on a date with George Duke made about the same time (which I never really
liked that much, Duke is playing a Fender Rhodes the entire time and it
doesn't really hint at the monster he would become in Frank's band).
The original King Kong album cover shows Ponty playing violin cupped in the
hand of a giant simian, I think airplanes are flying around him too.
Michael Gula
> The original liner notes of the aforementioned album provide the
> details of the earliest Ponty/FZ collaborations. Unfortunately,
> those notes are not reproduced on the CD issue.
My mistake. The LP notes were indeed reproduced with the CD
packaging. It was the crappy black-and-white photographs that
were omitted.
So now you have a reason to buy the CD.
Muffin Man
Swifty with Music for Low Budget Orchestra, or maybe they squeezed in
Big Swifty within another track. The album is stored about 250 miles
away from where I am now so I can't look at it right now but when I get
it soon I will check the the sleeves and the gatefold to see if they
have anything printed on them. I now remember the electric violinist I
was working with when I picked the album in 1986 mentioned that one of
the albums on Canteloupe Island was identical to Jean-Luc Ponty plays
Gilles
> However, around 1986 I picked up "Canteloupe Island" which I believe is
from the
> same recording sessions live at the experience club in LA in 1968.
This is the 2 lp version with King Kong on Blue Note label.
The single lp is on World Pacific Jazz label:
The Jean-Luc Ponty Experience With The George Duke Trio
Recorded in Hollywood at Thee Experience
September 1969
The notes are interesting:
"The set closed with a jam, with Frank Zappa on guitar. It was avant-garde,
to say the least."
Of course, this jam is not on the lp.
Ogden Freen
wrote:
>When did Jean-Luc Ponty start doing work with Zappa? I thought his first
>work with Zappa was in 1973 on the album that "Camarillo Brillo" was on
>(mind blank). Anybody have any insight on this?
...and what's the story about why Ponty stopped playing with Zappa? I
heard there was some sort of falling out.
Johnny Larsen
Island" can't be from the same recording session as "Jean-Luc Ponty plays
the music of FZ" because JLPPTMOFZ is not a live record.
"Big swifty" and "Sleep dirt" are much later FZ recordings
"Muffin Man" <jcon...@cox.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:3E17C3BF...@cox.net...
computeruser
news:av8q2r$ldq$1...@news-reader12.wanadoo.fr...
Here is a repost of mine from July 2002
From: computeruser
Subject: Zappa guest guitarist with The Jean-Luc Ponty Experience September
1969
View: Complete Thread (5 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: alt.fan.frank-zappa
Date: 2002-07-31 18:04:56 PST
Frank Zappa was the guest guitarist with The Jean-Luc Ponty Experience with
the George Duke Trio in sometime in September 1969. Or so says the liner
notes of (One Way Records S21 17372) "The Jean-Luc Ponty Experience with the
George Duke Trio" Recorded in Hollywood at Thee Experience.
Thee Experience, Los Angeles
Quoting: "The set closed with a Jam with Frank Zappa on guitar. It was
avant-garde, to say the least."
by Pete Senoff
As reviewed in Cash Box
September 27, 1969.
Has Joe Travers found this gem? Or does a boot exist?
computeruser
Pat Buzby
>
> ...and what's the story about why Ponty stopped playing with Zappa? I
> heard there was some sort of falling out.
The book Viva Zappa includes speculation that J-L P "may be the
one person who Zappa actually hates," which of course Ben Watson
reprinted as fact in his book. In one recent interview, Gail
suggested that FZ had problems with the idea of releasing live tapes
of the band with Ponty, but to my knowledge, no one has gone on record
as to exactly why.
Pat Buzby
Chicago, IL
Muffin Man
BTW, isn't there an electric violin on "Willie the Pimp" on Hot Rats? Is that Papa John Creach or ?
Muffin Man
Bossk (R)
> The book Viva Zappa includes speculation that
> J-L P "may be the one person who Zappa actually
> hates," which of course Ben Watson reprinted as
> fact in his book.
I can't find it in the book now - it's not under Ponty's or
Chevalier's index listings - but I remember it being clearly
attributed to Chevalier (along the lines of "according to
Dominique Chevalier, the ony person Zappa truly hates is
Jean-Luc Ponty"), not "reprinted as fact". Do you dispute
this - or admit you're a liar?
Bossk (R) <bossk-...@telia.com>
THE ZAPPA PATIO: http://zappapatio.unixlover.com
PS: Where the hell is it?
Charles Ulrich
wrote:
> Johnny Larsen wrote:
> >"Muffin Man" <jcon...@cox.net> skrev i en meddelelse
> >news:3E17C3BF...@cox.net...
> >
> >>There are a couple of albums where Jean-Luc Ponty plays the music of
> >>Frank Zappa. I have heard there is an album called "Jean Luc Ponty Plays
> >>the music of Frank Zappa" but I haven't seen or heard it. However,
> >>around 1986 I picked up "Canteloupe Island" which I believe is from the
> >>same recording sessions live at the experience club in LA in 1968. There
> >>is an instrumental version of "Big Swifty" e.g. the instrumental excerpt
> >>commonly known on Sleep Dirt. George Duke is also on the album. Now for
> >>the "Big question":
> >>
> >>When did Jean-Luc Ponty start doing work with Zappa? I thought his first
> >>work with Zappa was in 1973 on the album that "Camarillo Brillo" was on
> >>(mind blank). Anybody have any insight on this?
>
> >The first FZ record Jean-Luc Ponty is involved in is "Hot Rats". "Canteloupe
> >Island" can't be from the same recording session as "Jean-Luc Ponty plays
> >the music of FZ" because JLPPTMOFZ is not a live record.
> >"Big swifty" and "Sleep dirt" are much later FZ recordings
>
> As far as Big Swifty is concerned, I beg to differ. Greggary Pecarry IS
> a later recording but the instrumental theme from Big Swifty goes futher
> back as it is played on the 1973 Live in Sweden Video Tape.
> Incedentally, this video has Jean Luc Ponty on Violin. That's the tape
> where Zappa says "It's so fucking cold out here our fingers are a
> twichin' and a throbbin'"
"Big Swifty" was recorded on April 17, 1972. It was first performed in
concert on September 10, 1972.
The bulk of "Greggery Peccary" was first performed in concert on
September 10, 1972. Other parts were premiered in 1969, October 1972,
and September 1975. It was recorded in January and September 1975.
"Sleep Dirt" (which as far as I can tell is not an excerpt from "Big
Swifty") was recorded in December 1974. But at least the basic theme had
been performed in concert as early as December 10, 1971 (as heard in
"Don't Eat There" on Playground Psychotics).
Thus, all of these songs appear to have been written after JLP's first
period of involvement with FZ (1969-1970: Hot Rats, King Kong,
Disconnected Synapses) and before JLP's second period of involvement
with FZ (1973: Over-Nite Sensation, Piquantique).
Mark Mott
Muffin Man wrote:
> I have heard that JLP is extremely "difficult" to work with - actually
> - the words I herad were more like "complete a-hole!" - so picture two
> people that are both difficult to work with and it's easy to venture
> to say it couldn't last long.
>
> BTW, isn't there an electric violin on "Willie the Pimp" on Hot Rats?
> Is that Papa John Creach or ?
>
JLP plays on "It Must Be A Camel" on HR. On two other HR tunes,
"Willie the Pimp" and "The Gumbo Vairations, the violin is played by
Sugar Cane Harris.
J
Shiborugu
So it MUST be true.
Sarcasticly yours,
Shiborugu
Shiborugu
> Swifty") was recorded in December 1974. But at least the basic theme had
> been performed in concert as early as December 10, 1971 (as heard in
> "Don't Eat There" on Playground Psychotics).
It's also quoted in "intro to music for low budget..." on disk two (of PP).
Shiborugu
Johan Lif
news:gA0S9.4718$LY2.2...@newsc.telia.net...
> PS: Where the hell is it?
It's not in Watson at all (much to the disappointment of Pat Buzby, I'm
sure). I'm fairly sure it's Michael Gray who quotes Chevalier on this, also
clearly stating "according to Chevalier".
Johan
Johan Lif
news:0t3g1vcu7ibmlitor...@4ax.com...
> ...and what's the story about why Ponty stopped playing with Zappa? I
> heard there was some sort of falling out.
According to George Duke there was a falling out because Ponty couldn't cope
with the "comedy" aspects of Zappa's music. (Also note that Zappa is less
than complimentary about Ponty's playing in The Real Frank Zappa Book.)
Johan
Charles Ulrich
<RV0S9.172359$E_.6...@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,
"Shiborugu" <Shib...@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Sleep Dirt" is? I don't hear it. I hear the usual 7/8 vamp common to
all versions of "Low Budget".
Denis Griffin
There is a recent interview with JLP here:
http://www.jazzcaen.com/inponty.htm
Une question qui pourrait peut-être fâcher mais que je me pose
toujours : quelle fut la raison de la séparation avec Zappa?
JLP: Il réduisait de plus en plus la partie instrumentale de son
spectacle et écourtait tout particulièrement mes solos, quelquefois
en plein milieu. J'ai constaté que certains leaders supportent mal
qu'un sideman soit plus applaudi. Comme j'avais d'autres aspirations
que d'accompagner des chansons, je suis parti. Pas si fâché que ça...
Que son âme repose en paix.
A question that might make you angry, but I'll ask it anyway:
Why did you leave Zappa's Band?
JLP: He was reducing more and more the instrumental par of his
concerts and he was drastically shortening my solos, sometimes
right in the middle of them. I noticed that some leaders are not
quite comfortable when sidemen receive more applause. I also had
other aspirations than being a sidemen, so I left. Not as angry
as you may think... May his soul rest in peace.
Román García
news:Xb1S9.4533$FF4.2...@newsb.telia.net...
Michael Gray, _Mother! The Frank Zappa Story_, p. 173:
"According to Dominique Chevalier, the only person Zappa truly hates is
Jean-Luc Ponty."
Bill
I heard that it is because Ponty insisted receiving co-writing credit
for the songs on which he solos.
Digital Larry
> I have heard that JLP is extremely "difficult" to work with - actually
> - the words I herad were more like "complete a-hole!" - so picture two
> people that are both difficult to work with and it's easy to venture
> to say it couldn't last long.
I remember hearing that Ponty considered his solos "compositions" - which
Frank did too (of his own solos) - but furthermore wanted royalties because
of this. The one thing you apparently did not do unless you were willing
to get fired was ask Frank for more money (and per diem too!). Or use his
personal philosophy regarding solos as compositions and apply it to
yourself.
Maybe it was a case of too many egos in a tight space. Ponty did go on to
play with Mahavishnu and subsequently launched (I mean LAUNCHED - hah-dee-
yah-dee-yah-dah) his solo career.
> BTW, isn't there an electric violin on "Willie the Pimp" on Hot Rats?
> Is that Papa John Creach or ?
>
Sugarcane (Don) Harris
Ponty plays written parts on "It Must Be a Camel", AFAIK no solos on Hot
Rats.
Kevin C. McDonald
I thought he also had certain financial demands that didn't sit well
with FZ. Not sure how or when that idea was planted in my head, but
it's lodged in there pretty tight.
KCM
Charles Ulrich
wrote:
> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
> <html>
> <head>
> <title></title>
> </head>
> <body>
Please don't post in HTML.
> My reference to Sleep Dirt was to the album which contains the song "Greggary
> Pecarry"
"Greggery Peccary" is on Studio Tan, not Sleep Dirt.
> not the song Sleep Dirt, which has a vocalized version of Big Switfy
"Big Swifty" is mentioned in the narration of "Greggery Peccary". The
music there suggests the song "Big Swifty", but it isn't actually "Big
Swifty"--the rhythm is the same, but the pitches are different.
> and as far as I know the only "official" zappa release of this song up until
> that point.
"Big Swifty" was released in July 1972 on Waka/Jawaka.
> If Leather was recorded over a period that was longer than just
> "one recording session" then please educate me as I do not know).<br>
Lather was recorded over at least a five-year period (1972-1977), and
probably a seven-year period (1969-1977). "Greggery Peccary" itself took
five and a half sessions in January 1975 and part of another in
September 1975.
Much of this information can be found on Roman's excellent website
<http://globalia.net/donlope/fz/lyrics/index.html>.
K
> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
> <html>
> <head>
> <title></title>
> </head>
> <body>
> My reference to Sleep Dirt was to the album which contains the song
> "Greggary Pecarry" not the song Sleep Dirt, which has a vocalized
> version of Big Switfy and as far as I know the only "official" zappa
> release of this song up until that point. However, my recollection is
> that "Leather" was supposed to have come out in '78 (?) and that the
> album Sleep Dirt was part of that same recording session for Leather
> which logically would have been in 1977 (what I read about with the
> LSO in a 1980 issue of musician magazine with Frank on the Cover, how
> he paid each musician $15,000 a week and they still couldn't play
> their parts. If Leather was recorded over a period that was longer
> than just "one recording session" then please educate me as I do not
> know).<br> <br>
Big Swifty is just the name of the song on Waka Jawaka. The tune Big
Swifty isn't in Greggary Peccary, not that I hear (that tune is in its
basic version on YCDTOSA2), but there's parts that suggest some of the
weird harmonizing in the melody, and that may be timestretched in it like
a motet (like the three stabbing chords that are right before the words
"This particular peccary is part of ...").
The eventual 2nd movement of Greggary Peccary (where the lyrics go "This
is Big Swifty's") was in 1973 a song called Join The March, and my copy
of the Piquantique tape has Zappa referring to this song by this title,
when discussing with the band what's going to segue to what. It always
seemed to be separate from Farther Oblivion despite what you see
elsewhere on the web about it, because during this discussion Zappa says
something like "we drop the tempo when we get to Farther Oblivion." It's
Join The March until the tango comes in for Farther Oblivion a/k/a Bebop
Tango (which incidentally isn't Father O'blivion on Apostrophe -- got
it?).
Zappa didn't really write albums per se -- he wrote pieces of music that
he compiled into albums after they'd been laid down -- starting with
WOIIFTM I don't really think you could say that he had album X sessions.
K.
Muffin Man
The Sweden show has the exact musical lines of the second movement of
Gregarry Peccary.
Part I:
On Studio Tan: "this is big swifties - at big swifties we all know"
Now, for the part that goes "For any gimmick or gismo woudln't you
rather be involved in a series of colorful time-wasting trends" - I'm
not sure if the the "second part" instrumental is there
Ogden Freen
<faultline1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> BTW, isn't there an electric violin on "Willie the Pimp" on Hot Rats?
>> Is that Papa John Creach or ?
>>
>
>Sugarcane (Don) Harris
...and a fine job he did, too.
What happened to that guy? He was EXCELLENT!
Ogden Freen
wrote:
>As far as Big Swifty is concerned, I beg to differ. Greggary Pecarry IS
>a later recording but the instrumental theme from Big Swifty goes futher
>back as it is played on the 1973 Live in Sweden Video Tape.
>Incedentally, this video has Jean Luc Ponty on Violin. That's the tape
>where Zappa says "It's so fucking cold out here our fingers are a
>twichin' and a throbbin'"
..as in one of the concerts that appear on Piqantique? There's video
of that? Gotta find me a copy!
Johan Lif
> >
> >Sugarcane (Don) Harris
>
> ...and a fine job he did, too.
> What happened to that guy? He was EXCELLENT!
Died in 1999, unfortunately. If you want more of him, check out his albums
Sugarcane (Epic, 1970; with Johnny and Shuggie Otis) and the live
Sugarcane's Got the Blues (Polydor, 1973; Robert Wyatt on drums), or the old
Don & Dewey track "Soul Motion" from 1962, allegedly one of Zappa's
favourite r&b performances (might be hard to find though!). I also like the
1970 album Keep on Drivin' (MPS) where he's backed by phenomenal British
drummer Tony Oxley and German guitarist Volker Kriegel.
More info here: http://www.sugarcane-harris.com/ -- according to this page
there was a 2-CD retrospecitve released in 1999. Haven't heard it though.
Apart from that I believe Sugarcane is sadly underrepresented on CD.
Johan
the monastery
but i do remember a comment frank once made
about
ponty doin the same solo over and over again
something along the lines of
burstin out like a volcano
night after night...
this seems to be in sync with denis griffins post
Th
--
a mind is like a parachute, it only works when its open
FZ
feel free to visit the monastery
www.theoalers.nl
Fotografie Theo Alers/ the pixture monastery
Clarastraat 130
5211 LB 's-Hertogenbosch
tel: 073 6901161
fax: 073 6901161
email: in...@theoalers.nl
"Denis Griffin" <dgri...@videotron.ca> schreef in bericht
news:3E18B42B...@videotron.ca...
Pat Buzby
I'll have to recheck Negative Dialectics.
BTW, Johan - do you read Signal To Noise? Watson has a full-page
Cecil Taylor review in the new issue that is mostly superbly written,
but has a paragraph about Anthony Braxton that bugs me a great deal.
Of course, I'm sure Ben wouldn't be unhappy to hear that.
Incidentally, some of my CD reviews are in the magazine as well.
Pat Buzby
Chicago, IL
Charles Ulrich
wrote:
> The eventual 2nd movement of Greggary Peccary (where the lyrics go "This
> is Big Swifty's") was in 1973 a song called Join The March, and my copy
> of the Piquantique tape has Zappa referring to this song by this title,
> when discussing with the band what's going to segue to what. It always
> seemed to be separate from Farther Oblivion despite what you see
> elsewhere on the web about it, because during this discussion Zappa says
> something like "we drop the tempo when we get to Farther Oblivion." It's
> Join The March until the tango comes in for Farther Oblivion a/k/a Bebop
> Tango (which incidentally isn't Father O'blivion on Apostrophe -- got
> it?).
"Join the march and eat my starch" was the line in the Yellow Snow suite
that served as the cue to go into Steno Pool. Considering FZ's naming
practices, he could have used this phrase as the title for the following
instrumental.
But in fact the suite already had the name "Farther Oblivion". This name
predates all performances (and quite possibly the composition) of the
Yellow Snow suite.
FZ introduced the entire Steno Pool/Be-Bop Tango/Cucamonga suite as
"Farther Oblivion" on numerous occasions, both in 1972 and in those
concerts in 1973 when Farther Oblivion was not preceded by the Yellow
Snow suite.
Some examples:
10/31/72 (late) Passaic: "The name of this song is Farther Oblivion."
12/2/72 (early) Kansas City: "Farther Oblivion."
8/18/73 Copenhagen: "...another new song for you, called Farther
Oblivion."
(These are the examples I could easily cue up on CDs. I can find more
examples on cassettes if you're not convinced yet.)
I can't remember hearing FZ use the phrase "Join the march" outside the
context of the Yellow Snow suite. I don't have that section of the
8/21/73 Stockholm show, so I'd like to see an exact transcription of
what FZ says.
And even if FZ used "Join The March" as a working title for what was
later known as Steno Pool, that still doesn't prove that it was not part
of the larger suite known as "Farther Oblivion".
Harry
Johnny Almond, Keef Hartley, Mick Taylor, Harvey Mandel e.o.
Harry
"Martin Gregorie" <mar...@see.sig.for.address> schreef in bericht
news:lcui1v8go2re0uvbi...@4ax.com...
> IIRC he was on some of John Mayall's albums in the late 60s/early 70s.
>
>
> --
> martin@ : Martin Gregorie
> gregorie : Harlow, UK
> demon :
> co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
> uk :
>
Johan Lif
news:9fd3c272.03010...@posting.google.com...
> BTW, Johan - do you read Signal To Noise? Watson has a full-page
> Cecil Taylor review in the new issue that is mostly superbly written,
> but has a paragraph about Anthony Braxton that bugs me a great deal.
No, I can't get Signal To Noise in Sweden, unfortunately. I know Ben writes
for it though (thanks to Eugene Chadbourne, if I'm not mistaken). What does
he say about Braxton?
> Of course, I'm sure Ben wouldn't be unhappy to hear that.
Obviously he doesn't mind controversy!
> Incidentally, some of my CD reviews are in the magazine as well.
Sounds like it could be worth a subscription. Is it better than The Wire?
Johan
Charles Ulrich
<ulr...@sfu.ca> wrote:
Additional examples:
7/8/73 Sydney: "...we're going to play for you is less frenetic in
spots. But it gets weird towards the end. The name of this song is
Farther Oblivion."
8/30/73 Bologna: "All right, we have another new song for you. This is
called Farther Oblivion."
In all five of these instances, FZ's spoken introduction was immediately
followed by Steno Pool (not Be-Bop Tango).
> I can't remember hearing FZ use the phrase "Join the march" outside the
> context of the Yellow Snow suite. I don't have that section of the
> 8/21/73 Stockholm show, so I'd like to see an exact transcription of
> what FZ says.
I'd still like to see this.
> And even if FZ used "Join The March" as a working title for what was
> later known as Steno Pool, that still doesn't prove that it was not part
> of the larger suite known as "Farther Oblivion".
Actually, it would have to have been an informal title for what was
*already* known as Steno Pool. Even though the arrangement of Greggery
Peccary performed on the Grand Wazoo tour did not include the Steno Pool
section, that scene is listed in the Warner Brothers Circular
<http://users.cableaz.com/~lantz/pages/wazoo.html>, which was written
before the Grand Wazoo tour. So presumably Steno Pool was already
intended to be part of Greggery Peccary when it was first performed (as
part of Farther Oblivion) on the Petit Wazoo tour.
K
news:ulrich-EDCBF8....@news.vf.shawcable.net:
> In article <ulrich-4B629E....@news.vf.shawcable.net>, I
> <ulr...@sfu.ca> wrote:
>
>> "Join the march and eat my starch" was the line in the Yellow Snow
&c.
> (as part of Farther Oblivion) on the Petit Wazoo tour.
>
Awright, since we're obviously in competition over it <sniff, let me blow
the facetiousness and sarcasm out of my nose> the exact quotes and
sequences of events from the Opopoppa videotape I have are:
+++++++++++++++
("Dupree's Paradise" ends, Jean-Luc Ponty achieves sexual nirvana as the
horsehair flaps in the cold, Swedish air. Camera pans round to audience,
you can clearly see me in all my 16-year-old platinum blondeness happily
cheering the band on at the front of the stage despite the subfreezing
temperature, slightly surprised that the camera is pointing directly at
me. I wasn't aware that my eyes could get that big.)
(applause)
Zappa (mouthed to band on video tape, mic barely picks it up): "Join the
March into Farther Oblivion!"
(more applause, lots of song requests from the audience, general yells of
"More!")
Zappa: "Tak!" <or whatever "Thanks" is in Swedish, can't remember,
always spoke English in Sweden> <Zappa's breath freezes and coats the
microphone due to the cold> "Awright. Thank you very much, or Tak you
very much, however you prefer it. We're gonna go on now with an
elaborate ..... event .... that starts off with a, uh, sort of a march,
and then it goes into sort of a waltz, and then it goes into sort of a
tango, and then it goes into sort of a trombone solo, and then it builds
up to a frenetic conclusion, and then we STOP! You ready? <to band, but
still on the mic> We'll do 'Join The March,' medium tempo, and then pick
it up when we get to 'Farther Oblivion'."
(band looks slightly worried)
Ruth Underwood: <unidentified concern of some sort, camera's not on her
so I can't make out what she says, but you can hear it's definitely her
-- my memory says she said something like "is it too cold to do it at
that tempo?">
Zappa: "Well? ,,,,, <mouth noises indicating Tough Shit, don't bitch
about it, just do it>. Join the march and eat my starch!"
(The suite kicks in as usual; Ian Underwood wrestles with his bass
clarinet which is trying to get away; Bruce Fowler, looking very much
like the Who that Horton heard, nearly clonks him in the nuts with his
ever-swaying trombone; Jean-Luc Ponty doesn't immediately know how to
follow his mini-spoo at the end of "Dupree's Paradise" but saws away
arrogantly despite this; Tom Fowler grooves as usual; Ruth is invisible
but not sleeping; George Duke looks like he's going to fall off the stool
due to the Puffy Coiff; and Zappa looks concerned as though they started
off with a wrong note or the coat he's wearing is too stiff; and the
audience is befuddled that the show's going to end and Zappa only played
two songs that were available on record at that point -- the entire show
was Eric Dolphy Memorial BBQ, Kung Fu, Rdnzl, Cosmik Debris, Montana,
Dupree's Paradise, Join The March, Farther Oblivion, Cucamonga, Cucamonga
<again, because they played too many wrong notes>.)
++++++++++++++++
So after all you *must* be right, after all you researched it well, while
I was merely there. Who could possibly assume from this series of events
after 30 years that it was a separate song? Train spotted well enough
for you?
K.
Muffin Man
this? Who what when...
Muffin Man
but not recently. Your detailed description narrows Big Swifty down to
being part of the"Join the March" medley.
Chuck Spinach
>So after all you *must* be right, after all you researched it well, while
>I was merely there. Who could possibly assume from this series of events
>after 30 years that it was a separate song? Train spotted well enough
>for you?
I dunno -- I feel rather edified by both accounts.
Thanks K, and thanks C.
c_s
Charles Ulrich
wrote:
> I've never heard of "Piqantique" - can anybody provide some info on
> this? Who what when...
Beat The Boots, Volume I. See the website I recommended to you yesterday
<http://globalia.net/donlope/fz/btb/piquantique.html>.
Martin Gregorie
wrote:
>Plays on 9 tracks of John Mayall's "Back to roots". A 2LP with Clapton,
>Johnny Almond, Keef Hartley, Mick Taylor, Harvey Mandel e.o.
>
Did that or 'Blues Fusion' ever get released on CD? I used to have
them on vinyl. More recently when I went looking, all I could find was
'The Turning Point'. I really liked the stuff his drumless bands did
around then.
Muffin Man
Harry
are out on CD.
Harry de Swart
---------------------------------------------------
Stuff up the cracks Zappa Vinyl
http://home.westbrabant.net/~hades/mylp.html
"Martin Gregorie" <mar...@see.sig.for.address> schreef in bericht
news:vvhl1vsoadf0skft2...@4ax.com...
Mark Mott
Martin Gregorie wrote:
I've seen both of these on CD in the US. Both are remastered and iirc John
Mayall's "Back to Roots" is two CD with bonus tracks (alternate takes,
different remixes).
J.
Charles Ulrich
wrote:
> Excellent description of the video. I have watched it many, many times,
> but not recently. Your detailed description narrows Big Swifty down to
> being part of the"Join the March" medley.
"Big Swifty" was not part of the "medley". Whatever you call it, and
however much of it is considered to be "Farther Oblivion", the sequence
was Steno Pool, Be-Bop Tango, Cucamonga.
See Jon's FZShows <http://home.swipnet.se/fzshows/73a.html> for the
setlist of the audio tape, Patrick's Videography
<http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~splat/video_info_70's.html#Stockholm> for
discussion of the different versions of the video, and Roman's
discography <http://globalia.net/donlope/fz/btb/piquantique.html> and
Johan's Zappa Patio
<http://w1.858.telia.com/~u85821131/bootlegs/concert_boots1971-1975.html#
piquantique> for the tracklist of Piquantique. None of these sources
lists "Big Swifty".
If you can point to exactly where in the tape "Big Swifty" is performed,
then I'm sure we'd all be glad to hear about it.
K
@news.vf.shawcable.net:
Hmmm. I knew what MM was talking about.
I'm not sure it much matters now. I mean, what with Frank being *dead* and
all. What sort of job are you going to do with all this information to try
to earn you a living?
K.
Chuck Spinach
>I'm not sure it much matters now. I mean, what with Frank being *dead* and
>all. What sort of job are you going to do with all this information to try
>to earn you a living?
Now don't be snippy, young man.........
It matters because there are geeks like me who enjoy the fruits of Charles' (and
others') quasi-academical exploits and explorations of FZ' exploits and
explorations. To the extent that said fruits bring me (and yet others) a wee
bit of joy in this creepy little world, they are -- at least in some ways --
more valuable than our respective mechanisms for "earn[ing] you a living" (i.e.,
the avocation trumps the vocation, even if only fleetingly).
Now fucking play nice, and keep telling whatever FZ-related (or otherwise
compelling) stories you may have.
c_s
Martin Gregorie
wrote:
>I heard another hard to get Mayall on CD was USA Union.
>
...another album I'd have liked to get.
Martin Gregorie
wrote:
Thanks for the info. I'll take a walk on the 'net side.
Charles Ulrich
wrote:
> Charles Ulrich <ulr...@sfu.ca> wrote in news:ulrich-D1A95C.21532807012003
> @news.vf.shawcable.net:
>
> > In article <3E1A5B5D...@cox.net>, Muffin Man <jcon...@cox.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Excellent description of the video. I have watched it many, many times,
> >> but not recently. Your detailed description narrows Big Swifty down to
> >> being part of the"Join the March" medley.
> >
> > "Big Swifty" was not part of the "medley". Whatever you call it, and
> > however much of it is considered to be "Farther Oblivion", the sequence
> > was Steno Pool, Be-Bop Tango, Cucamonga.
> >
> > See Jon's FZShows <http://home.swipnet.se/fzshows/73a.html> for the
> > setlist of the audio tape, Patrick's Videography
> > <http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~splat/video_info_70's.html#Stockholm> for
> > discussion of the different versions of the video, and Roman's
> > discography <http://globalia.net/donlope/fz/btb/piquantique.html> and
> > Johan's Zappa Patio
> > <http://w1.858.telia.com/~u85821131/bootlegs/concert_boots1971-1975.html#
> > piquantique> for the tracklist of Piquantique. None of these sources
> > lists "Big Swifty".
> >
> > If you can point to exactly where in the tape "Big Swifty" is performed,
> > then I'm sure we'd all be glad to hear about it.
> >
>
> Hmmm. I knew what MM was talking about.
Sorry. With all the red herrings in this thread, I misinterpreted Muffin
Man's most recent post. I'll try again:
In article <3E1A5B5D...@cox.net>, Muffin Man <jcon...@cox.net>
wrote:
> Excellent description of the video. I have watched it many, many times,
> but not recently. Your detailed description narrows Big Swifty down to
> being part of the"Join the March" medley.
"Big Swifty" is the title of an instrumental composition by Frank Zappa.
Four performance of this piece have been officially released (on
Waka/Jawaka, You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore Vol. 1, You Can't Do
That On Stage Anymore Vol. 2, and Make A Jazz Noise Here), always under
the same title. It was performed in concert in 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975,
1982, 1984, and 1988. Whenever FZ introduced this piece, he referred to
it as "Big Swifty". No known performance of this piece has any lyrics.
The lyrics "Swifty's, this is Big Swifty's" occur in "The Adventures Of
Greggery Peccary". No officially-released album has included subtitles
for the sections of "Greggery Peccary". However, FZ wrote an article
about the repertoire of the Grand Wazoo tour for the Warner Brothers
Circular in 1972. In it, he labeled this section "Scene Two: THE STENO
POOL AT BIG SWIFTY'S".
Because "Big Swifty" is the title of a completely different song (which
predates "Greggery Peccary"), it is not an appropriate way to refer to
the second section of "Greggery Peccary". The conventional way to do so
is "Steno Pool".
"Steno Pool" was indeed performed as part of a suite with "Be-Bop Tango"
and "Cucamonga" in 1972 and 1973. FZ usually introduced this suite as
"Farther Oblivion".
K
news:ulrich-B20A2B....@morgoth.sfu.ca:
> "Big Swifty" is the title of an instrumental composition by Frank
> Zappa. Four performance of this piece have been officially released
> (on Waka/Jawaka, You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore Vol. 1, You Can't
> Do That On Stage Anymore Vol. 2, and Make A Jazz Noise Here), always
> under the same title. It was performed in concert in 1972, 1973, 1974,
> 1975, 1982, 1984, and 1988. Whenever FZ introduced this piece, he
> referred to it as "Big Swifty". No known performance of this piece has
> any lyrics.
>
> The lyrics "Swifty's, this is Big Swifty's" occur in "The Adventures
> Of Greggery Peccary". No officially-released album has included
> subtitles for the sections of "Greggery Peccary". However, FZ wrote an
> article about the repertoire of the Grand Wazoo tour for the Warner
> Brothers Circular in 1972. In it, he labeled this section "Scene Two:
> THE STENO POOL AT BIG SWIFTY'S".
>
> Because "Big Swifty" is the title of a completely different song
> (which predates "Greggery Peccary"), it is not an appropriate way to
> refer to the second section of "Greggery Peccary". The conventional
> way to do so is "Join The March".
>
> "Join The March" was indeed performed as part of a suite with "Be-Bop
Pat Buzby
>
> No, I can't get Signal To Noise in Sweden, unfortunately. I know Ben writes
> for it though (thanks to Eugene Chadbourne, if I'm not mistaken). What does
> he say about Braxton?
Some comments to the effect that Braxton could have been a
musical savior to "poor black America," but sold out to academia, and
that Cecil Taylor had the right idea by not doing so. Which is
annoying since (a) Cecil has been involved in academia, though not as
extensively as Braxton, and (b) I suspect that if I were Braxton, I
would be deeply offended by the notion that Braxton's musical ideas
are not representative of "poor black America."
> Sounds like it could be worth a subscription. Is it better than The Wire?
Well, The Wire is based out of London, while Signal To Noise is
based in Burlington, VT. I think that hints at the difference between
the two fairly well.
Pat Buzby
Chicago, IL
Charles Ulrich
Charles Ulrich
Charles Ulrich <ulr...@sfu.ca> wrote:
> "Big Swifty" is the title of an instrumental composition by Frank Zappa.
> Four performance of this piece have been officially released (on
> Waka/Jawaka, You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore Vol. 1, You Can't Do
> That On Stage Anymore Vol. 2, and Make A Jazz Noise Here), always under
> the same title. It was performed in concert in 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975,
> 1982, 1984, and 1988. Whenever FZ introduced this piece, he referred to
> it as "Big Swifty". No known performance of this piece has any lyrics.
For further discussion of "Big Swifty", see Román's songlist
<http://globalia.net/donlope/fz/songs/Big_Swifty.html>.
> The lyrics "Swifty's, this is Big Swifty's" occur in "The Adventures Of
> Greggery Peccary". No officially-released album has included subtitles
> for the sections of "Greggery Peccary". However, FZ wrote an article
> about the repertoire of the Grand Wazoo tour for the Warner Brothers
> Circular in 1972. In it, he labeled this section "Scene Two: THE STENO
> POOL AT BIG SWIFTY'S".
For the text of the Warner Brothers Circular, see Bill's Music Is The
Best <http://users.cableaz.com/~lantz/pages/wazoo.html>.
> Because "Big Swifty" is the title of a completely different song (which
> predates "Greggery Peccary"), it is not an appropriate way to refer to
> the second section of "Greggery Peccary". The conventional way to do so
> is "Steno Pool".
For references to this section of "Greggery Peccary" as "Steno Pool",
see Román's discography
<http://globalia.net/donlope/fz/btb/piquantique.html> and songlist
<http://globalia.net/donlope/fz/songs/Farther_Oblivion.html> (the latter
incorporating quotations from Foggy's Turtles All The Way Down
<http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/turtlestew/72f2.htm>), and The
Planet Of My Dreams
<http://members.shaw.ca/fz-pomd/wazoo/pwrep.html#farther>.
Johan Lif
news:9fd3c272.03010...@posting.google.com...
> musical savior to "poor black America," but sold out to academia, and
> that Cecil Taylor had the right idea by not doing so.
This sounds dubious but is this really what he's saying, in those words? How
about a proper quotation?
Johan
K
news:9fd3c272.03010...@posting.google.com:
Right. The truth about Braxton is that he's such a jive turkey that he
can't get anyone to play his music other than people he can browbeat and
guess who that would be? Students!!! He's an asshole deluxe when he's
directing, but he's better if he's a sideman (he's on some of my Subvulture
stuff). I like him but more than once I've had to say completely "cut the
crap" to him.
K.
K
This isn't good enough because it's all second hand. Joel Thome has a
handwritten sketch score of it (in Zappa's hand) called "Join The March."
(This is my source for where it actually ends in the suite). You gotta
come up with aural documentation that it's "S**** P***" because I've never
actually heard Zappa call it that but I transcribed documentation (and will
post mp3's if you like) of it being called "Join The March". I've also
heard Palermo call it JTM in rehearsal.
Bottom line -- it's not called "S**** P***" -- that's an internet name.
K.
Jon Naurin
> You gotta
> come up with aural documentation that it's "S**** P***" because I've never
> actually heard Zappa call it that but I transcribed documentation (and will
> post mp3's if you like) of it being called "Join The March".
From Royce Hall, Sep. 18 1975:
http://home.swipnet.se/fzshows/steno.mp3
- Jon
K
news:MPG.1886bb59b...@nntpserver.swip.net:
> http://home.swipnet.se/fzshows/steno.mp3
>
Can't get to it. Swipnet tried to put a cookie on my machine and I won't
say yes to that.
K.
K
> In article <Xns92FDA85FF1A...@199.45.49.11>, k...@kr.com
Heard it. This doesn't count either. He says:
"This is the steno pool section of 'Greggery Peccary.'"
i.e. the song is called "Greggery Peccary" and they're going to play the
part referring to the steno pool, but not all of "Greggery Peccary". The
way he says it there, it means that the title is "Greggery Peccary."
and not
"The name of this song is 'Steno Pool.'"
So this would mean that by that time the song was called "Greggery
Peccary" (nothing else) and the band was only going to play a part of it in
that show.
You still haven't come up with anything saying Zappa himself ever called it
"Steno Pool." Just "Steno Pool." Not "The Steno Pool Section" or anything
more ... just the two words Steno & Pool. There's common aural
documentation in the Opopoppo television show like I transcribed where Join
The March is very definitely the name of the song at that point in '73, and
none whatsoever that Zappa ever called it "Steno Pool".
Sorry, no dice. You wanna trainspot? We'll trainspot.
K.
Chuck Spinach
>> http://home.swipnet.se/fzshows/steno.mp3
>Can't get to it. Swipnet tried to put a cookie on my machine and I won't
>say yes to that.
Then you'll just have to take it on faith, tough guy :-)
c_s
K
news:avic...@drn.newsguy.com:
If I gotta take it on faith it's very definitely "Join The March" because
that's what I've called it for 30 years. That's what Palermo calls it,
that's what Thome calls it, and that's what Zappa called it during the show
that's on Piquantique as I transcribed.
K.
Michael Gula
<snip>
> No I didn't.
Well, why not?
Chuck Spinach
>If I gotta take it on faith it's very definitely "Join The March" because
>that's what I've called it for 30 years. That's what Palermo calls it,
>that's what Thome calls it, and that's what Zappa called it during the show
>that's on Piquantique as I transcribed.
You know what? Even if you're right (and I'm taking no sides on the merits of
the ongoing musiconomenclatural debate), you have been, and continue to be,
something of a prat about the whole thing. And that is far worse than being a
mere "trainspotter."
The detailed online references that were offered to you for your consideration
-- which you smugly discarded as being "second hand" -- are the result of
extended and extensive cooperation between numerous individuals. It is the
cooperative aspect of the "collective trainspotting" experience that you seem to
have the greatest difficulty in embracing -- although you clearly enjoy the
trainspotting experience, at least to the extent of asserting your own prowess
and the (real or perceived) superiority of your information sources.....
If you're going to continue to fester in these fetid waters, why don't you
lighten up a bit and play nice with the other boys and girls?
c_s
K
> On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 00:04:21 GMT, K let go of his pickle and out
> jumped:
>
>>If I gotta take it on faith it's very definitely "Join The March"
>>because that's what I've called it for 30 years. That's what Palermo
>>calls it, that's what Thome calls it, and that's what Zappa called it
>>during the show that's on Piquantique as I transcribed.
>
> You know what? Even if you're right (and I'm taking no sides on the
> merits of the ongoing musiconomenclatural debate), you have been, and
> continue to be, something of a prat about the whole thing.
Agreed.
> And that
> is far worse than being a mere "trainspotter."
Perhaps. I'm reflecting what I see.
>
> The detailed online references that were offered to you for your
> consideration -- which you smugly discarded as being "second hand" --
> are the result of extended and extensive cooperation between numerous
> individuals.
Smugness doesn't have anything to do with it, at least not the way I see
it. It is my unequivocal opinion (whether anyone agrees or not) that
since it is All Conjecture Anyway, if you're going to trainspot you have
to go to the nth degree of nitpickiness (like Zappa). Most of my
comments about "Join The March" after the initial question are directed
at *one* person. They just happen to be in public, that's all.
The reason that they're second hand is that they didn't come straight
from the horse's mouth. They're part of the "collective trainspotting"
which I think is highly half-assed (again whether I'm right or not is
moot). I've been watching and not saying hardly anything since about
1994 (sometimes with a few months off when I get sick of it, and want to
listen to someone who's alive that I might be able to go see live), and I
see this all too much. Since I'm quite able to write something that I
hope is enlightening and fascinating quickly, I figured I'd speak up
about it and say, hey, this is half-assed. An unpopular opinion to be
sure, but any thinking person would take it as "creative deviation from
the norm."
Let's draw a parallel. How many of you make sure that the records sit in
acid-free sleeves, that they have polyvinyl around them, run them through
a vpi before playing them, make sure that a fan is on them 24 x 7 (even
in the wintertime), the temperature in the room is always 72 degrees, no
matter what it does to the electric bill, all tapes get exercised from
time to time, and so on and so on and scooby dooby dooby? Not a one, I
would think. Go down to your local government archives and have a look
at how they keep the documents and pay attention to how they're stored.
It's expensive and tons of work, and you can't half-ass it or it will
disintegrate, and I think the same goes for the information collecting
that's on the web. You've seen what happens when the major source for
news is other news. You get the shit-eating story, the idea that Mothers
are dirty and don't deserve to be on the radio, and the popular consensus
that Zappa was a weirdo when it's plain to see (to anyone who actually
knows anything about him and where he got his shit from) that the
weirdest thing about him was that he was an uberworkaholic.
> It is the cooperative aspect of the "collective
> trainspotting" experience that you seem to have the greatest
> difficulty in embracing -- although you clearly enjoy the
> trainspotting experience, at least to the extent of asserting your own
> prowess and the (real or perceived) superiority of your information
> sources.....
Part of the reason I do any trainspotting at all is because I have to as
a second hand dealer. I have a handful of things in my online shop and
the good stuff is in my private catalog, but most of it is in the
physical shop. I have to know all these differences for when stuff
wanders in so I can make that sort of judgment. I can answer a *lot* of
questions about 8-track and reel versions of many of the 60's & 70's
albums (there's a lot of differences in them especially in the ones that
were a suite per side on the vinyl and had to be redone, and they're
getting to be in the $100s if they're in good shape which they almost
never are, especially the quads). It's not really all that much fun for
me, but I get asked a *lot* as a dealer of a lot of top-shelf stuff, and
I have to know these things that I think are otherwise totally useless
information. I could be a Major Contributor, and you know, I'd sort of
like to in a way, but no one upon no one has ever convinced me that it's
worth it. I am a quietly volitale personality, but I don't particularly
think that's a hindrance.
>
> If you're going to continue to fester in these fetid waters, why don't
> you lighten up a bit and play nice with the other boys and girls?
Playing nice begets playing nice, and I'm not one to let the other person
forget it. If I'm a ratfuck because I'm like that, I guess I'm a
ratfuck.
K.
Digital Larry
Sterno Pool
Sterno Fool
I'm a Sterno Fool! (buddy of the Wino Man)
I may be totally wrong but...
Franz Fuchs
wrote:
I second Johan's request. It would be very nice to have an exact
citation (which I could forward to the Braxton mailing list
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anthony_BRAXTON).
Maybe I'm hopelessly out of touch with recent events, but I'm asking
anyway: Has B. Watson's book about Derek Bailey already been
published?
Regards
Franz Fuchs
Muffin Man
immediately prior to the part where they start singing "Big Swifty".
It's a logical close marker but if they sing the melody on Greggary
Peccary then if they play it without the melody why wouldn't it still
be called "Big Swifty" - or better yet - why would the name change? If
we've established that there is a song (or a section of a song) entitled
"Big Swifty"
a) it must be the portion of the song that contains the words "Big Swifty"
b) doesn't it make sense that the same melody without the vocals should
be called the same thing?
Charles Ulrich
wrote:
> Jon Naurin <nau...@mbox300.swipnet.se> wrote in
> news:MPG.1886bb59b...@nntpserver.swip.net:
>
> > In article <Xns92FDA85FF1A...@199.45.49.11>, k...@kr.com
> > says...
> >
> >> You gotta
> >> come up with aural documentation that it's "S**** P***" because I've
> >> never actually heard Zappa call it that but I transcribed
> >> documentation (and will post mp3's if you like) of it being called
> >> "Join The March".
> >
> > From Royce Hall, Sep. 18 1975:
> > http://home.swipnet.se/fzshows/steno.mp3
> >
> > - Jon
>
> Heard it. This doesn't count either. He says:
>
> "This is the steno pool section of 'Greggery Peccary.'"
>
> i.e. the song is called "Greggery Peccary" and they're going to play the
> part referring to the steno pool, but not all of "Greggery Peccary". The
> way he says it there, it means that the title is "Greggery Peccary."
That title does not appear on my copy of Studio Tan (Barking Pumpkin
CD). The actual title is "The Adventures Of Greggery Peccary".
Similarly, on Läther, the title appears four times as "The Adventures Of
Greggery Peccary".
But I call it "Greggery Peccary". You call it "Greggery Peccary". Simon
Prentis calls it "Greggery Peccary" twice in the Läther liner notes. And
as you have just admitted, FZ himself called it "Greggery Peccary" on at
least one occasion.
Why? Because the full title is a little unwieldy, so it's convenient to
have a short form.
Do you question that the Warner Brothers Circular article was written by
FZ himself? It says, as I noted before, "Scene Two: THE STENO POOL AT
BIG SWIFTY'S".
> and not
>
> "The name of this song is 'Steno Pool.'"
>
> You still haven't come up with anything saying Zappa himself ever called it
> "Steno Pool." Just "Steno Pool." Not "The Steno Pool Section" or anything
> more ... just the two words Steno & Pool.
In article <ulrich-B20A2B....@morgoth.sfu.ca>, I
<ulr...@sfu.ca> wrote:
> Because "Big Swifty" is the title of a completely different song (which
> predates "Greggery Peccary"), it is not an appropriate way to refer to
> the second section of "Greggery Peccary". The conventional way to do so
> is "Steno Pool".
I did not state that the official, full title of this song is "Steno
Pool". I made the true statement that it is conventional to refer to
this section of "Greggery Peccary" as "Steno Pool". That is indeed how
many of us refer to it.
> So this would mean that by that time the song was called "Greggery
> Peccary" (nothing else) and the band was only going to play a part of it in
> that show.
"The Adventures Of Greggery Peccary" was titled "The Adventures Of
Greggery Peccary" before "Steno Pool" was ever performed in any context.
FZ had written the section heading "Scene Two: THE STENO POOL AT BIG
SWIFTY'S" before "Steno Pool" was ever performed in any context.
"Join the march" is a phrase from the lyrics of "Father O'Blivion". FZ
apparently used it on at least two occasions (8/21/73 Stockholm and,
according to you, Joel Thome's score) to refer to the piece otherwise
known as "Steno Pool"--for the obvious reason that in 1973 "Steno Pool"
was sometimes performed immediately after "Father O'Blivion".
But FZ also referred to this music as "...Steno Pool..." on at least two
occasions (the 1972 Warner Brothers Circular and 9/18/75 Los Angeles).
"Steno Pool" is a reasonable short form of "Scene Two: THE STENO POOL AT
BIG SWIFTY'S" and/or "the steno pool section of 'Greggery Peccary".
(There's also the possibility that what FZ actually said in Royce Hall
was "the 'Steno Pool' section of 'Greggery Peccary'", where this was
indeed the proper name for a section of the larger piece!)
FZ seems to have used two titles for the same music. So what's new? He
did that all the time.
In article <Xns92FDA85FF1A...@199.45.49.11>, K <k...@kr.com>
wrote:
> Bottom line -- it's not called "S**** P***" -- that's an internet name.
The title I and my colleagues use is at worst a shortening of one of two
titles that FZ himself used. Moreover, his first known use of this title
predates his first known use of the other one. I don't understand why
this title should be rejected simply because I have access to usenet.
K
> Steno Pool is the main theme of conversation on the Sudio Tan album
> immediately prior to the part where they start singing "Big Swifty".
> It's a logical close marker but if they sing the melody on Greggary
> Peccary then if they play it without the melody why wouldn't it still
> be called "Big Swifty" - or better yet - why would the name change? If
> we've established that there is a song (or a section of a song)
> entitled "Big Swifty"
> a) it must be the portion of the song that contains the words "Big
> Swifty" b) doesn't it make sense that the same melody without the
> vocals should be called the same thing?
No, Muffin .... Big Swifty is a finger-poppin' swingin' jazz number on
Waka Jawaka that doesn't have any words. The tune *might* be in Greggery
Peccary but it's not obvious (I'd have to transcribe it to find it). You
can find it on YCDTOSA1 (one of the best versions ever), and on YCDTOSA2
in a very abbreviated form. Longest one is about 18 minutes, shortest
one is about 2 minutes. The only bearing this has on Greggary Peccary is
that's where he works. Conceptual Continuity at work.
Zappa used different titles to describe different arrangements or
different versions before. Think It Over vs. The Grand Wazoo; Variant
Processional March vs. Regyptian Strut; Why Don't You Like Me? vs. Tell
Me You Love Me; The Duke vs. Return Of The Hunchback Duke vs. Little
House I Used To Live In; The Groupie Routine vs Do You Like My New Car?;
Pink Napkins vs. Black Napkins; all those names of guitar solos that were
really breaks in more familiar songs. He's also referred back to
melodies in pieces: Sinister Footwear II vs Wild Love, Bwana Dik vs
Duodenum, &c. (At the common Grand Wazoo show from Hollywood Bowl
floating around they played "Penis Dimension" before going into VPM, much
faster than Regyptian Strut.) He's also referred on stage to certain
suites that never seemed to really have titles but were essentially
performed the same way each time: "Little House I Used To Live In > A
Holiday In Berlin > Cruising For Burgers" (which I've never heard a
reference to onstage or off), the groupie opera from the Flo & Eddie days
(don't recall where I heard it right at the moment but I do have a tape
somewhere where he says before it "we'll do the whole opera" and it's the
version that starts and ends with What Will This Evening/Morning &c.
Some people want to call the Big Rock Number toward the end of Billy The
Mountain by the name Studebaker Hoch but again I don't think I've ever
heard Zappa himself give it that name. Then for another classic example,
there's Don't Eat The Yellow Snow to describe the entire suite complete
with the section that wasn't on Apostrophe for whatever reason, or Shove
It Right In to describe the entire sequence from 200 Motels when it was
performed live. There's no reason that he wouldn't call the entire suite
"Farther Oblivion" and the part that later became Bebop Tango the same
thing at the time. He called other suites by songs other than the first
one (Shove It Right In is a perfect example).
And if that weren't enough, he's used subtitles, as on Freak Out (Help
I'm A Rock and The Return of The Son Of Monster Magnet). Funny how no
one ever talks about Nullis Prentii, In Memoriam Edgard Varese, Ritual
Dance Of The Child-Killer, or Okay To Tap Dance (I *think* that's what
these things were called). You might want to note that the single of "It
Can't Happen Here / Go Cry On Somebody Else's Shoulder" on my copy the A-
Side calls it "Help I'm A Rock - 3rd Movement: It Can't Happen Here."
Join The March is the piece of music at the beginning of the long track
of Piquantique.... and that's the show I have video of and was at. And
that's the only place anyone's been able to come up with where Zappa was
actually referring to the song by an actual title. The next closer one
is that audio excerpt from the '75 show where Zappa announced it as "the
steno pool section from Greggery Peccary" but the way he said it suggests
that it was called Greggery Peccary by then.
Steno Pool seems to be an internet name referring to that section of
Greggary Peccary that you're talking about, something like Studebaker
Hoch -- you know, not a real song title.
What I'm contending is that same piece of music is called "Join The
March" until at the latest Sept 75, when it lost that title and just
became Greggery Peccary, and that it never ever was called Steno Pool.
It *might* have been called "The Steno Pool At Big Swifty's" before it
was called "Join The March" but it may just have been called "The
Adventures Of Greggery Peccary" *and* the title Steno Pool derives from
that circular -- but, like Help I'm A Rock and Return Of The Son of
Monster Magnet (a/k/a Cream Cheese just to fuck you up), no one ever
talks about tunes such as Greggery's Apartment, Greggery Through The
Morning Traffic, Greggery Invents The Calendar, or Greggery Is Attacked.
(They do talk about New Brown Clouds because that was indeed the title of
that section at the time). To be honest I think those "wonderful
experts" <big sniff> "in the know" are just too lazy to write "The Steno
Pool At Big Swifty's" and since the complete Opopoppo show is *not* so
common as Piquantique (because it got released), no one ever brought it
up till now. But at the show in the front row it was Join the March, the
band members talked about it after the show as Join The March, and to my
mind it's always going to be Join The March at that point in time because
that what it was when I was there.
I've been out to that telia site and looked at it. I spotted a couple of
things out there about how this track is 3 seconds longer or 2 seconds
shorter but there's no audible difference. You want to know why?
*Analogue tape machines motors all travelled at slightly different speeds
-- it's the nature of analogue motors.* Yet there's always nitpicking
about it *without anyone even thinking about this fact of life.* If you
think what I'm doing here is prattish, you ought to go after those guys
too for that shit.
K.
K
> That title does not appear on my copy of Studio Tan (Barking Pumpkin
> CD). The actual title is "The Adventures Of Greggery Peccary".
The title on the Discreet album from 1978 is "Greggary Peccary." No
Adventures.
> Do you question that the Warner Brothers Circular article was written
> by FZ himself? It says, as I noted before, "Scene Two: THE STENO POOL
> AT BIG SWIFTY'S".
No I don't. If anything that's a pertinent clue -- when it's in Greggary
Peccary it might be called "Scene Two: The Steno Pool At Big Swifty's"
or "The Steno Pool At Big Swifty's." It might be called "the steno pool
section of 'Greggery Peccary'." But when it's not (like at the beginning
of the Farther Oblivion suite) it's called "Join The March." But it
doesn't appear to ever have been called "Steno Pool." You want to
trainspot, so I'm trainspotting.
Besides, no one ever talks about:
Greggery's Apartment
Greggery Through The Morning Traffic
Greggery Invents The Calender
Greggery Is Attacked
Okay To Tap Dance
In Memoriam, Edgard Varese
Ritual Dance Of The Child-Killer
or
Nullis Prentii (No Commercial Potential).
Are these song titles, section titles, what? You don't get to make one
up if you don't know.
>
>> and not
>>
>> "The name of this song is 'Steno Pool.'"
>>
>> You still haven't come up with anything saying Zappa himself ever
>> called it "Steno Pool." Just "Steno Pool." Not "The Steno Pool
>> Section" or anything more ... just the two words Steno & Pool.
>
> In article <ulrich-B20A2B....@morgoth.sfu.ca>, I
> <ulr...@sfu.ca> wrote:
>
>> Because "Big Swifty" is the title of a completely different song
>> (which predates "Greggery Peccary"), it is not an appropriate way to
>> refer to the second section of "Greggery Peccary". The conventional
>> way to do so is "Steno Pool".
>
> I did not state that the official, full title of this song is "Steno
> Pool". I made the true statement that it is conventional to refer to
> this section of "Greggery Peccary" as "Steno Pool". That is indeed how
> many of us refer to it.
And many of you would appear to me to be incorrect. You said it was
conventional. Conventional by whose standards? Who the hell are *you*
to tell me or Muffin Man what convention is? I said it was called "Join
The March" at that time. And it is. On the videotape.
>
>> So this would mean that by that time the song was called "Greggery
>> Peccary" (nothing else) and the band was only going to play a part of
>> it in that show.
>
> "The Adventures Of Greggery Peccary" was titled "The Adventures Of
> Greggery Peccary" before "Steno Pool" was ever performed in any
> context. FZ had written the section heading "Scene Two: THE STENO POOL
> AT BIG SWIFTY'S" before "Steno Pool" was ever performed in any
> context.
No I don't think so. The first bit did get performed at the Ark. Check
"Some Ballet Music" and you'll hear it, and it appears that it was just
called "Some Ballet Music" or it didn't have a title at all. How come in
all the reviews of the Ark it's not called "Greggery's Apartment" but
instead it's just called "Some Ballet Music"? You gotta be consistent.
Your sources are NOT.
> "Join the march" is a phrase from the lyrics of "Father O'Blivion".
No they're not. The lyrics to Father O'Blivion might be:
Get on your feet an' do the funky Alfonzo!
Father Vivian O'Blivion
Resplendent in his frock
Was whipping up the batter
For the pancakes of his flock
He was looking rather bleary
(He forgot to watch the clock)
'Cause the night before
Behind the door
A leprechaun had stroked, yes . . .
The night before
Behind the door
A leprechaun had stroked (he stroked it) . . .
The night before
Behind the door
A leprechaun had stroked . . . his . . .
Sma-ah-ah
Ah-ah-ah
Ah-ah-ah
Ah-ah-ah
Ah-ah-ah
Ah-ah-ah
Ahhh (stroked his smock)
Which set him off in such a frenzy
He sang LOCK AROUND THE CROCK
An' he topped it off with a . . .
An' he topped it off with a . . .
An' he topped it off with a . . .
WOO WOO WOO
WOO WOO WOO
WOO WOO WOO
As he stumbled on his ____
He was delighted as it stiffened
And ripped right through his sock
Oh, Saint Alfonzo would be proud of me
PROUD OF ME
He shouted down the block
Dominus Vo-bisque 'em*
Et come spear a tu-tu,
Oh!
Won't you eat my sleazy pancakes
Just for Saintly Alfonzo
They're so light 'n fluffy-white
We'll raise a fortune by tonite
They're so light 'n fluffy-white
We'll raise a fortune by tonite
They're so light 'n fluffy-brown
They're the finest in the town
They're so light 'n fluffy-brown
They're the finest in the town
Good morning, your Highness
Ooo-ooo-ooo
I brought you your snow shoes
Ooo-ooo-ooo
Good morning, your Highness
Ooo-ooo-ooo
I brought you your snow shoes
*Clear example of inconsistency because it's not spelled that way in the
official Thing Fish libretto.
Ain't no "join the march" in there.
> FZ
> apparently used it on at least two occasions (8/21/73 Stockholm and,
> according to you, Joel Thome's score) to refer to the piece otherwise
> known as "Steno Pool"--for the obvious reason that in 1973 "Steno
> Pool" was sometimes performed immediately after "Father O'Blivion".
No in the suite it was always performed before.
> But FZ also referred to this music as "...Steno Pool..." on at least
> two occasions (the 1972 Warner Brothers Circular and 9/18/75 Los
> Angeles).
And this appears to be an earlier version too -- notice that the lyrics
don't appear exactly in the final product and you *can't* line them up
singing it. You're also looking at a completely unfinished piece of
work.
> "Steno Pool" is a reasonable short form of "Scene Two: THE STENO POOL
> AT BIG SWIFTY'S" and/or "the steno pool section of 'Greggery Peccary".
> (There's also the possibility that what FZ actually said in Royce Hall
> was "the 'Steno Pool' section of 'Greggery Peccary'", where this was
> indeed the proper name for a section of the larger piece!)
If he wanted to shorten it and it was indeed the title why didn't he say
"This is "Steno Pool" and it's from "Greggery Peccary"?" It does mean
two different things ... the phrasing of his speech in that clip suggests
that he said "This is the steno pool section from "Greggery Peccary."
>
> FZ seems to have used two titles for the same music. So what's new? He
> did that all the time.
>
Yep, he did.
> The title I and my colleagues use is at worst a shortening of one of
> two titles that FZ himself used. Moreover, his first known use of this
> title predates his first known use of the other one. I don't
> understand why this title should be rejected simply because I have
> access to usenet.
Part of the reason it should be rejected is
a) You don't know as much as you think you know. (I'm freely
acknowledging this about myself right here and now.) You gotta ask
someone involved, be there in some way, somehow. Not merely reading
somebody's webpage, because that's conjecture. You're going to tell me
that you believe everything you read on someone's webpage? If so I got a
Marilyn Manson rumour page to show you.
b) I'm being arrogant to you about it and will continue to grow even
more arrogant toward you as an attempt to show you point A. What drives
me? You might think of many others like you who've driven me nuts over
the years with this stuff. You're the one who barked at me first with
the trainspotting, so you're the one to get slapped first -- after all
you wanted to enter into the competition. You'll never get it. You're
not perceptive enough. Why do I do this? Because I never sleep.
c) My mission is to personally drive you utterly batshit. Heave it on
and I'll heave twice as much back if not more. I promise. xoxoxoxoxo
Do I care if I lose my credibility? No. It's only usenet.
d) You don't shorten Return of The Son Of Monster Magnet, Brown Shoes
Don't Make It, America Drinks & Goes Home, most of the titles from 200
Motels, any of the titles from the Groupie Opera, Whatever Happened To
All The Fun In The World, Watermelon In Easter Hay, The Meek Shall
Inherit Nothing, My Guitar Wants To Kill Your Mama, Dwarf Nebula
Processional March & Dwarf Nebula, Eric Dolphy Memorial Barbecue, Prelude
To The Afternoon Of A Sexually Aroused Gas Mask, Little House I Used To
Live In, The Legend Of The Golden Arches, Ian Underwood Whips It Out
(Live On Stage In Copenhagen) and so on and so on.
e) Rest assured that I'm not trolling the newsgroup, but I'm trolling
YOU personally.
but the main reason is:
Your research was *HALF-ASSED*, based completely on conjecture, and since
you so vehemently corrected me and wanted to enter into some sort of
competition (completely missing that I might be giving you some new-to-
you information but were so intent on telling Muffin Man I was wrong
about it), I'm going to completely wear you down ... you've heard "I'll
play but I won't raise?" I'll play, and I'll raise so high you go broke.
Still wanna play?
K.
Martin Gregorie
... and CD Connection came up trumps with everything I wanted.
Pat Buzby
I see that he didn't actually write "poor black America," so
sorry, Ben (although that does seem to be what he was implying)...
"In 1974, supported by the Arista label, and surrounded by
brilliant musicians badly in need of inspired direction, Anthony
Braxton looked as if he could become the combination of Charlie
Parker, John Coltrane and Malcolm X which poor America so desperately
requires. However, the bourgeoisie responded by setting up a
simulacrum of the messiah (Branford's brother Wynton), clouding his
fusionesque trumpet virtues with ideological, pro-middle-class
blandishments. Along with a raft of other revolutionary musicians,
Braxton washed up in academia. This meant two decades of
"compositional concepts" and unconvincing, student-band performances:
strategies which might impress the classically-educated, but will
never sway the more purely musical judgment of the masses who've been
touched by Coltrane and Hendrix, who crave that personal touch on the
instrument, that electric transcription of spontaneous integrity. The
promotional Marsalis and the academic Braxton are torn halves of a
revolutionary culture: torn halves which don't add up. Cecil Taylor
made the right decision: remaining outside the restraints of both
corporate spectacle and academic institution and keeping the focus on
the playing body." - BW
Pat Buzby
Chicago, IL
Muffin Man
complicated real fast. What I wanted/was trying to say at the start was
(re-worded to avoid extreme overcomplication) "the vocal line that
refers to "Big Switfy" from the portion of "Greggary Peccary" on the
offical WB release also appears on the Sweden video from 1972 as an
instrumental line as part of another song or medley". That's all I was
trying to say. You have be REAL careful how you word stuff around here!
Biffy the Elephant Shrew
> Charles Ulrich <ulr...@sfu.ca> wrote in
> news:ulrich-C0B892....@news.vf.shawcable.net:
>
> > That title does not appear on my copy of Studio Tan (Barking Pumpkin
> > CD). The actual title is "The Adventures Of Greggery Peccary".
>
> The title on the Discreet album from 1978 is "Greggary Peccary." No
> Adventures.
That release was unauthorized and Zappa had no control over the
packaging. Three out of the four titles on that release are different
from the way they appear on Zappa-authorized releases.
> Besides, no one ever talks about:
>
> Greggery's Apartment
> Greggery Through The Morning Traffic
> Greggery Invents The Calender
> Greggery Is Attacked
> Okay To Tap Dance
> In Memoriam, Edgard Varese
> Ritual Dance Of The Child-Killer
> or
> Nullis Prentii (No Commercial Potential).
Why should they? Have those sections ever been performed or appeared
anywhere separately from the larger pieces of which they are part?
> > "The Adventures Of Greggery Peccary" was titled "The Adventures Of
> > Greggery Peccary" before "Steno Pool" was ever performed in any
> > context. FZ had written the section heading "Scene Two: THE STENO POOL
> > AT BIG SWIFTY'S" before "Steno Pool" was ever performed in any
> > context.
>
> No I don't think so. The first bit did get performed at the Ark. Check
> "Some Ballet Music" and you'll hear it, and it appears that it was just
> called "Some Ballet Music" or it didn't have a title at all. How come in
> all the reviews of the Ark it's not called "Greggery's Apartment" but
> instead it's just called "Some Ballet Music"?
I'm not at home and so can't consult the recordings, but if memory
serves, here you are not referring to the 3/4 "steno pool scene" theme
itself (and doesn't it seem unlikely that a theme in waltz-time should
be called "Join The March"?), but to a different theme which serves as
an intro to the "Farther Oblivion" suite and occurs *elsewhere* in
TAOGP.
> > "Join the march" is a phrase from the lyrics of "Father O'Blivion".
>
> No they're not. The lyrics to Father O'Blivion might be:
[snip]
> Ain't no "join the march" in there.
What Charles means is that "Join the march [and eat my starch!]" is a
phrase from *live performances* of "Father O'Blivion," uttered by the
title character.
> > FZ
> > apparently used it on at least two occasions (8/21/73 Stockholm and,
> > according to you, Joel Thome's score) to refer to the piece otherwise
> > known as "Steno Pool"--for the obvious reason that in 1973 "Steno
> > Pool" was sometimes performed immediately after "Father O'Blivion".
>
> No in the suite it was always performed before.
Now you're confusing "Father O'Blivion" with "Farther Oblivion."
Charles is correct.
> > But FZ also referred to this music as "...Steno Pool..." on at least
> > two occasions (the 1972 Warner Brothers Circular and 9/18/75 Los
> > Angeles).
>
> And this appears to be an earlier version too -- notice that the lyrics
> don't appear exactly in the final product and you *can't* line them up
> singing it. You're also looking at a completely unfinished piece of
> work.
No. The 1975 UCLA performance took place *after* the recording of the
completed "Adventures Of Greggery Peccary."
> e) Rest assured that I'm not trolling the newsgroup, but I'm trolling
> YOU personally.
It's really sad to see someone who's *proud* of being an asshole.
--
Biffy the Elephant Shrew
K
> It's easy to see how something that starts out real simple can get
> real complicated real fast. What I wanted/was trying to say at the
> start was (re-worded to avoid extreme overcomplication) "the vocal
> line that refers to "Big Switfy" from the portion of "Greggary
> Peccary" on the offical WB release also appears on the Sweden video
> from 1972 as an instrumental line as part of another song or medley".
> That's all I was trying to say. You have be REAL careful how you word
> stuff around here!
That you do. Else some dumbfuck trainspotter is going to come up to you
and tell you no it's not the same melody because the third note in the
melody on that version is a Bb and it falls on the beat that's going at 72
bpm where in this version it's a three-quarter-tone flat B that falls on
the third sixteenth of a triplet that's embedded in the space of a dotted
quarter in a tuplet that's 4 quarters in the space of 7 with the overall
tempo being 86.327 in 5/8 for just that one bar. And oh yeh, the guitar
settings are different and it's not technically as good as this one over
here.
And I'm setting here thinking "Where Is Johnny Velvet?"
K.
Johan Lif
news:3e2022cf....@news.utanet.at...
> Maybe I'm hopelessly out of touch with recent events, but I'm asking
> anyway: Has B. Watson's book about Derek Bailey already been
> published?
Unfortunately it hasn't. When I spoke to BW this summer he seemed rather
uncertain about its future (the manuscript is long since finished) but I do
hope he can get it published: the story of free improvisation is a story
that really deserves to be told. More info here:
http://www.militantesthetix.co.uk/bailey/baileyfr.htm
Johan
Johan Lif
news:9fd3c272.03010...@posting.google.com...
> sorry, Ben (although that does seem to be what he was implying)...
Thanks for the quote! I don't think he's implying that: I think he's talking
about a musically impoverished American jazz scene. I understand the
distinction he's making between Taylor and Braxton though I'm not familiar
enough with Braxton's later works to comment on the aesthetical judgement BW
is making. Braxton's quartet in the 1980s was great though.
Johan
Biffy the Elephant Shrew
> brilliant musicians badly in need of inspired direction, Anthony
> Braxton looked as if he could become the combination of Charlie
> Parker, John Coltrane and Malcolm X which poor America so desperately
> requires. However, the bourgeoisie responded by setting up a
> simulacrum of the messiah (Branford's brother Wynton), clouding his
> fusionesque trumpet virtues with ideological, pro-middle-class
> blandishments. Along with a raft of other revolutionary musicians,
> Braxton washed up in academia. This meant two decades of
> "compositional concepts" and unconvincing, student-band performances:
> strategies which might impress the classically-educated, but will
> never sway the more purely musical judgment of the masses who've been
> touched by Coltrane and Hendrix, who crave that personal touch on the
> instrument, that electric transcription of spontaneous integrity. The
> promotional Marsalis and the academic Braxton are torn halves of a
> revolutionary culture: torn halves which don't add up. Cecil Taylor
> made the right decision: remaining outside the restraints of both
> corporate spectacle and academic institution and keeping the focus on
> the playing body." - BW
What's peculiar about this is the idea that Braxton somehow betrayed
an early promise of being some kind of "messiah" by embracing
academia, when he carefully cultivated that
arch-intellectual/professorial image right from the beginning of his
career: pipe-smoking, chess-playing, greatcoated and muttonchopped
dealer in abstract music with mathematical diagrams by way of titles
and gordian knots of verbiage by way of musical analysis. He is the
black Robert Fripp.
K
news:6b8583ae.03010...@posting.google.com:
Oh I knew *you'd* want to play.
> K <k...@kr.com> wrote in message
> news:<Xns92FE3562CD4...@199.45.49.11>...
>> Charles Ulrich <ulr...@sfu.ca> wrote in
>> news:ulrich-C0B892....@news.vf.shawcable.net:
>>
>> > That title does not appear on my copy of Studio Tan (Barking
>> > Pumpkin CD). The actual title is "The Adventures Of Greggery
>> > Peccary".
>>
>> The title on the Discreet album from 1978 is "Greggary Peccary." No
>> Adventures.
>
> That release was unauthorized and Zappa had no control over the
> packaging. Three out of the four titles on that release are different
> from the way they appear on Zappa-authorized releases.
Yes, but eventually he did give in and go with their basic
configurations.
>> Besides, no one ever talks about:
>>
>> Greggery's Apartment
>> Greggery Through The Morning Traffic
>> Greggery Invents The Calender
>> Greggery Is Attacked
>> Okay To Tap Dance
>> In Memoriam, Edgard Varese
>> Ritual Dance Of The Child-Killer
>> or
>> Nullis Prentii (No Commercial Potential).
>
> Why should they? Have those sections ever been performed or appeared
> anywhere separately from the larger pieces of which they are part?
>
Yes they did. "Greggery's Apartment" or "Greggery Through The Morning
Traffic" (who knows where it begins and ends?) vs. "Some Ballet Music."
"In Memoriam, Edgard Varese" section of "Help I'm A Rock" on "Ahead Of
Their Time."
>> > "The Adventures Of Greggery Peccary" was titled "The Adventures Of
>> > Greggery Peccary" before "Steno Pool" was ever performed in any
>> > context. FZ had written the section heading "Scene Two: THE STENO
>> > POOL AT BIG SWIFTY'S" before "Steno Pool" was ever performed in any
>> > context.
>>
>> No I don't think so. The first bit did get performed at the Ark.
>> Check "Some Ballet Music" and you'll hear it, and it appears that it
>> was just called "Some Ballet Music" or it didn't have a title at all.
>> How come in all the reviews of the Ark it's not called "Greggery's
>> Apartment" but instead it's just called "Some Ballet Music"?
>
> I'm not at home and so can't consult the recordings, but if memory
> serves, here you are not referring to the 3/4 "steno pool scene" theme
> itself (and doesn't it seem unlikely that a theme in waltz-time should
> be called "Join The March"?), but to a different theme which serves as
> an intro to the "Farther Oblivion" suite and occurs *elsewhere* in
> TAOGP.
>
No. "Some Ballet Music" is the same tune as either "Greggery's
Apartment" or "Greggery Through The Morning Traffic". I could easily
picture a twisted march (one that's shifting meter like that melody)
relaxing into a jazz waltz sort of thing and being called "Join The
March." My point there is that bits of TAOGP existed long before the
story or the titles.
>> > "Join the march" is a phrase from the lyrics of "Father O'Blivion".
>>
>> No they're not. The lyrics to Father O'Blivion might be:
> [snip]
>> Ain't no "join the march" in there.
>
> What Charles means is that "Join the march [and eat my starch!]" is a
> phrase from *live performances* of "Father O'Blivion," uttered by the
> title character.
Then those wouldn't be the true lyrics then because that's the eyebrows
of that particular performance.
>
>> > FZ
>> > apparently used it on at least two occasions (8/21/73 Stockholm
>> > and, according to you, Joel Thome's score) to refer to the piece
>> > otherwise known as "Steno Pool"--for the obvious reason that in
>> > 1973 "Steno Pool" was sometimes performed immediately after "Father
>> > O'Blivion".
>>
>> No in the suite it was always performed before.
>
> Now you're confusing "Father O'Blivion" with "Farther Oblivion."
> Charles is correct.
>
In Moron terms: In the suite Join The March > Farther Oblivion >
Cucamonga it always came before Farther Oblivion. Father O'blivion is
part of Don't Eat The Yellow Snow.
>> > But FZ also referred to this music as "...Steno Pool..." on at
>> > least two occasions (the 1972 Warner Brothers Circular and 9/18/75
>> > Los Angeles).
>>
>> And this appears to be an earlier version too -- notice that the
>> lyrics don't appear exactly in the final product and you *can't* line
>> them up singing it. You're also looking at a completely unfinished
>> piece of work.
>
> No. The 1975 UCLA performance took place *after* the recording of the
> completed "Adventures Of Greggery Peccary."
Yes but the 1972 WB Circular took place *way* before it.
>
>> e) Rest assured that I'm not trolling the newsgroup, but I'm
>> trolling YOU personally.
>
> It's really sad to see someone who's *proud* of being an asshole.
I'm doubly proud of being an asshole to you, because you're just about
the worst I can think of at asshuming that you know everything about a
given subject.
P.S. Biffy, you've done the trainspotting thing to my face at record
shows when I was dealing and I wanted to slap you for trying to take my
mind off of what I was doing.
> --
> Biffy the Elephant Shrew
>
K.
K
> What's peculiar about this is the idea that Braxton somehow betrayed
> an early promise of being some kind of "messiah" by embracing
> academia, when he carefully cultivated that
> arch-intellectual/professorial image right from the beginning of his
> career: pipe-smoking, chess-playing, greatcoated and muttonchopped
> dealer in abstract music with mathematical diagrams by way of titles
> and gordian knots of verbiage by way of musical analysis. He is the
> black Robert Fripp.
>
> --
> Biffy the Elephant Shrew
Braxton didn't "betray" anything. Who did he ever make a sort of promise
like that to? He's always been the number one exponent of "fuck you if you
don't like it." More so than me. You think I'm an asshole? Go meet
Braxton. If you dislike me that much you'll just *love* him.
K.
Chuck Spinach
>You think I'm an asshole?
Well, now that you mention it, this conclusion seems to move closer from the
subjective to the objective with each of your posts.....
:-)
c_s
K
It's working completely in reverse because I've already said on several
times that I'm half putting those trainspotters on. This is really
fascinating not to mention it really being funny. I'm having fun.
Trainspotting the trainspotters who can't stand to be trainspotted
themselves. You think they'd be able to deal with their straight jobs
being scrutinized like that?
K.
Hanzo
Chuck Spinach
>It's working completely in reverse because I've already said on several
>times that I'm half putting those trainspotters on. This is really
>fascinating not to mention it really being funny. I'm having fun.
>Trainspotting the trainspotters who can't stand to be trainspotted
>themselves. You think they'd be able to deal with their straight jobs
>being scrutinized like that?
In the final analysis, whether FZ *actually* had a specific intended title for a
specific inchoate piece of music in the period from September 1972 through
August 1975 is not as important as the fact that a large number of people have
collaborated to assemble an "educated guess"-based working consensus, spanning
temporal and geographical boundaries.
The "second-hand" resources you continue to ridicule (based upon your lofty
credentials as (i) a guy who was, at least once, in the same room as Mr. Thome,
and (ii) someone involved somehow with a band that may have had something to do
with SST records) are not only impressive because of the amount of data they
comprise, but because they are the result of a large-scale *collaborative*
effort. While, as you have previously suggested, it won't change the world
whether FZ *really* *did* use the same nested 'tuplets in every performance of a
given piece, the aforementioned collaborative efforts (including those of the
people who review and enjoy, as well as compile, the materials), and the
satisfaction to be derived therefrom, are rewards unto themselves. The result
of teamwork. Shared geekdom in a world that, by and large, has little interest
in (or patience for) music geeks, esp. of the FZ-lovin' variety. The
(generally) friendly interrelationships between the denizens of this NG are the
rewards of said denizens' singular and collective geekdom. What else does
anyone here need from here?
While you cannot escape your own inclination towards amassing minutiae and
ephemera, you do a poor job of playing nice with the other boys and girls and
sharing same in a mutually beneficial way (never mind your "he hit me first"
comments -- you're being an undignified and unjustified asshole to an
ever-expanding roster of targets).
If you were to try to work a "straight job" with your lousy attitude(s), you'd
get fired a lot faster than anyone you're hassling in here.
c_s
Chuck Spinach
jumped:
>It's really sad to see someone who's *proud* of being an asshole.
Ahhhhh, what the fuck do you expect from a guy who chooses to hide behind a
cheap 'Net pseudonym, anyway.....
c_s
K
> On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 22:29:59 GMT, K let go of his pickle and out
> jumped:
>
>>It's working completely in reverse because I've already said on
>>several times that I'm half putting those trainspotters on. This is
>>really fascinating not to mention it really being funny. I'm having
>>fun. Trainspotting the trainspotters who can't stand to be
>>trainspotted themselves. You think they'd be able to deal with their
>>straight jobs being scrutinized like that?
>
> In the final analysis, whether FZ *actually* had a specific intended
> title for a specific inchoate piece of music in the period from
> September 1972 through August 1975 is not as important as the fact
> that a large number of people have collaborated to assemble an
> "educated guess"-based working consensus, spanning temporal and
> geographical boundaries.
"Guess" is the operative word here. It's all guesswork.
> The "second-hand" resources you continue to ridicule (based upon your
> lofty credentials as (i) a guy who was, at least once, in the same
> room as Mr. Thome, and (ii) someone involved somehow with a band that
> may have had something to do with SST records) are not only impressive
> because of the amount of data they comprise, but because they are the
> result of a large-scale *collaborative* effort.
And I say the collaborative effort is half-assed. If you were really
doing it, you'd be ringing up many people that have to do with it rather
than relying on the work of some stoned journalist half the time. It's
easy to find out this sort of ephemera. You just pick up the phone and
call someone involved. It's not hard at all. In fact that's how I found
out a bunch of stuff about Zappa -- just picking up the phone and asking
people that had something to do with it. Name, union directory, phone
number, BANG you're there. No problem.
"Lofty"? HAHAHAHAHAHAAHHA. Rykodisc is just as much of a toilet as SST
was back in the day.
I didn't have anything to do with SST because I like so many people found
it hard to get on with Greg Ginn. I did have something to do with Ryko,
before it got sold.
> While, as you have
> previously suggested, it won't change the world whether FZ *really*
> *did* use the same nested 'tuplets in every performance of a given
> piece, the aforementioned collaborative efforts (including those of
> the people who review and enjoy, as well as compile, the materials),
> and the satisfaction to be derived therefrom, are rewards unto
> themselves. The result of teamwork. Shared geekdom in a world that,
> by and large, has little interest in (or patience for) music geeks,
> esp. of the FZ-lovin' variety. The (generally) friendly
> interrelationships between the denizens of this NG are the rewards of
> said denizens' singular and collective geekdom. What else does anyone
> here need from here?
A reason to exist in modern society.
Now, there's me and there's a whole lot of other people. Can you give me
a good reason why I would want to be just like them? Why would anyone
want to amass this amount of minutae for fun?
>
> While you cannot escape your own inclination towards amassing minutiae
> and ephemera, you do a poor job of playing nice with the other boys
> and girls and sharing same in a mutually beneficial way (never mind
> your "he hit me first" comments -- you're being an undignified and
> unjustified asshole to an ever-expanding roster of targets).
Perhaps. But you're reading it.
The minutiae and ephemera is not an inclination though. It's a
necessity. When I go to sell some of my top shelf collection I'd better
know this stuff. If I don't know this stuff, I might not eat because I
might not sell that top shape reel that I had the foresight to stash 30
years ago tails out.
>
> If you were to try to work a "straight job" with your lousy
> attitude(s), you'd get fired a lot faster than anyone you're hassling
> in here.
Funny, I've never had a straight job. I don't know what it's like, and
I'm glad I don't. I've never needed one. It always struck me as slave
labour.
But this is the part that puzzles me. You didn't catch where I said it
was a put-on? :-)
BTW in my old band we did a lot of put-ons just like this one. Anything
that you ever heard about them was a put-on just like this, and
completely untrue.
K.
>
> c_s
>
Muffin Man
Muffin Man
you can see a train coming a mile away!
Muffin Man
am happy that there are people out there who have such detailed
information. Disclaimer: When _I_ refer to the portion of the Greggary
Peccary official WB release that has the lyrics "Steno Pool" in it - it
means exactly what is says - not what something might have meant in the
past. The easiest way I know to refer a section of a piece that is part
of a long medley is to identify it by what the lyrics are in that
section. Is that so illogical? Once again, you have to be careful what
you say - there are too many permutations of the lyric (and possibly the
melody) that you mentioned to indentify the part of song you were
talking about (my intention was to just to indentify a few notes of a
melody for christs sake) and all of a sudden it's "no that isn't that
part becase something happened in the past etc. etc. etc. I learned my
lesson. Next time I try to identify anything myself using the lyrics I
will put a disclaimer in the post.
K
because they had nothing better to do, and collect the numbers of the cars
to see how many times the same car would go past their viewing spot, what
train it was hooked up to and such. They didn't do anything at all with
this information, but they collected it.
Nowadays the meaning is closer to "needless (central) scrutinizer" or one
who collects data about something because they have nothing at all better
to do with their lives, no purpose at all in collecting it.
K.
Muffin Man <jcon...@cox.net> wrote in news:3E1E1F84...@cox.net:
Chuck Spinach
>Will someone please explain to me what a trainspotter is? Seems to me
>you can see a train coming a mile away!
Just remember this: "a dromedary has one hump and a camel has a
refreshment car, buffet, and ticket collector. . . . ."
c_s
Chuck Spinach
>> your "he hit me first" comments -- you're being an undignified and
>> unjustified asshole to an ever-expanding roster of targets).
>Perhaps. But you're reading it.
Don't worry -- that sha'n't likely continue.
>But this is the part that puzzles me. You didn't catch where I said it
>was a put-on? :-)
>BTW in my old band we did a lot of put-ons just like this one. Anything
>that you ever heard about them was a put-on just like this, and
>completely untrue.
You forget the part where you first get people to like (or at least
"understand") you. Then your being a schmuck as a "put-on" might have an
appropriate context. You're just being a schmuck.
Anyway, I've done my little dance and I'm backing out now -- enjoy yrself,
funny-man.....
c_s
Michael Gula
>
> Will someone please explain to me what a trainspotter is? Seems to me
> you can see a train coming a mile away!
It's a time machine. It trainspots you to another time.
K
> On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 00:22:59 GMT, K let go of his pickle and out
> jumped:
> You forget the part where you first get people to like (or at least
> "understand") you. Then your being a schmuck as a "put-on" might have
> an appropriate context. You're just being a schmuck.
No you've got it backwards. I'm not being a schmuck as a put-on. I'm
always a schmuck. Can't help that one. I mean everyone's got
shortcomings.
The put-on is this:
You trainspot
the trainspotters
and they can't handle it
and so they
wouldn't be able to
handle being in the
same position as the
people they're
trainspotting.
Point this out to them, and yeh they're going to call you a schmuck. This
makes it a double put-on because you did just that.
What I wish as a person for whom the trainspotting has gone on (in fact
some in affz very recently) is that for a short period of time -- a week,
say -- every trainspotter actually has to live on the other end - the one
being scrutinized.
K.
Chris
> The put-on is this:
>
> You trainspot
> the trainspotters
> and they can't handle it
> and so they
> wouldn't be able to
> handle being in the
> same position as the
> people they're
> trainspotting.
>
wow ... someone finally said what i've been wanting to say all along to the
group. Cool. Thanks.
Chris
Jeroen J
> There are a couple of albums where Jean-Luc Ponty plays the music of
> Frank Zappa. I have heard there is an album called "Jean Luc Ponty Plays
> the music of Frank Zappa" but I haven't seen or heard it. However,
> around 1986 I picked up "Canteloupe Island" which I believe is from the
> same recording sessions live at the experience club in LA in 1968. There
> is an instrumental version of "Big Swifty" e.g. the instrumental excerpt
> commonly known on Sleep Dirt. George Duke is also on the album. Now for
> the "Big question":
>
> When did Jean-Luc Ponty start doing work with Zappa? I thought his first
> work with Zappa was in 1973 on the album that "Camarillo Brillo" was on
> (mind blank). Anybody have any insight on this?
Another JL Ponty album you might enjoy is "Live at Donte's". No
Zappa-stuff, but hey, it's a recording with George Duke from around
1969-1970. If you like Hot Rats, you might like this one, too.
Oh yes, happy newyear everyone.
Jeroen