Carol Kaye plays on what?
Tom Tuerff
12-string guitar on Frank's "first two albums."
I don't remember any 12-string guitar. What songs is she talking about?
TT
Michael Gula
FZ claimed that, while other L.A. groups used session musicians
on their records, the Mothers played their own instruments.
Carol Kaye has upset a few people with some of her claims, most
particularly that she, and not the legendary James Jamerson,
played the distinctive bass lines on several well-known Motown
hits.
I was disillusioned to read that she, and not Brian Wilson,
played bass on the Beach Boys records (although Carol
acknowledges that Wilson did write the musicians' charts).
Regardless, there is a book in the works by Russ Wapensky which
researches the records of Musicians' Local 47. It should provide
documentary evidence on which bands played on their records and
which used "help," as well as the Jamerson controversy.
I was hoping this book would shed light on the musicians who
played on Studio Tan, but unfortunately it only looks at the
years 1949-1969.
Here's what Carol said about the book:
> This book will dispel forever the myths about the groups hit recordings,
> and will prove who really did play on them. The studio musicians cut
> everyone's hits in the 60s, from the Monkees to the Animals, even the
> Ventures (altho' some of the Ventures played on their recordings but
> that's myself on bass and Hal Blaine on drums, etc.), and one other,
> Frank Zappa had his own bass player and drummer but the rest were studio
> musicians:
>
> Tommy Tedesco on lead guitar on Zappas recordings, Dennis Budimer and
> myself on 12-strings, and we loved his parts, there were challenging and
> good music. But after seeing the lyrics of the 2nd album, I opted out
> (just played on part of the 2nd, but all of the 1st album) as I was
> raising my 3 children and was sort of shocked at the lyrics, Frank was
> gracious, very nice and we remained friends, he understood. Yes, you
> might say I was a prude, but most of our bunch were (then).
--
SIGNATURE FILE?! WHAT SIGNATURE FILE??
To reply remove MORESPAM from the address.
Jack P. Armstrong
>> raising my 3 children and was sort of shocked at the lyrics, Frank was
There isn't anything shocking on Absolutely Free. Except for maybe Brown
Shoes... bleah, I don't for a SECOND believe that she and tedesco played the
parts on these albums - the style is typical frank... esp. when compared to the
early-60s Studio Z recordings...
- - - - - - -
Jody B. (aka Jack P. Armstrong)
"DODONGO hates smoke." - The Old Man
"Buddha would never be in a box in the first place." - some guy wearing a mu-mu
Patrick Neve
Tom Tuerff wrote:
>
> I was just at the Carol Kaye website where she lists having played
> 12-string guitar on Frank's "first two albums."
>
> I don't remember any 12-string guitar. What songs is she talking about?
And THIS is strange. The all-music guide lists Carol Kaye as having
played bass on Freak Out.
*************************************************
"All is well, and all WILL be well... in the garden." -Chauncy Gardiner
*************************************************
Splat's Zappa Page
http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~splat/zappapage.html
Patrick Neve
> Tom Tuerff wrote:
> >
> > I was just at the Carol Kaye website where she lists having played
> > 12-string guitar on Frank's "first two albums."
> >
> > I don't remember any 12-string guitar. What songs is she talking about?
>
> And THIS is strange. The all-music guide lists Carol Kaye as having
> played bass on Freak Out.
> *************************************************
> Splat's Zappa Page
> http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~splat/zappapage.html
Yipes, I guess that's not so strange considering they also credit Adrian
Belew for that album.
Michael Gula
>
> Tom Tuerff wrote:
> >
> > I was just at the Carol Kaye website where she lists having played
> > 12-string guitar on Frank's "first two albums."
> >
> > I don't remember any 12-string guitar. What songs is she talking about?
>
> And THIS is strange. The all-music guide lists Carol Kaye as having
> played bass on Freak Out.
An understandable error, as she is better known as a bass player
than a guitar player. But she says FZ had his own bass player and
drummer and all the rest were studio guys. Taken at face value,
it means that Elliot Ingber sat this one out, and there are a few
more unsettling implications as well.
Furbelly
>
>Tom Tuerff wrote:
>>
>> I was just at the Carol Kaye website where she lists having played
>> 12-string guitar on Frank's "first two albums."
>>
>> I don't remember any 12-string guitar. What songs is she talking about?
>
>And THIS is strange. The all-music guide lists Carol Kaye as having
>played bass on Freak Out.
>
>
And, as we all know, allmusic is the definitive source for musical
information on the web. ;)
>*************************************************
>"All is well, and all WILL be well... in the garden." -Chauncy Gardiner
Mike Smith
Tom Tuerff wrote in message ...
>I was just at the Carol Kaye website where she lists having played
>12-string guitar on Frank's "first two albums."
>
>I don't remember any 12-string guitar. What songs is she talking about?
>
Didn't say what songs, but, she does mentioned in the credits on "Freak
Out".
Michael Gula
Yes she is, but the manner in which she is mentioned bothers me a
bit.
She is lumped into "The Mother's Auxiliary." Carol Kaye at that
point in time was unknown to anyone outside the recording
business and for years I assumed that she was just one of the
freaks who came in to bang on the rented percussion equipment. Or
a groupie. Or somebody's girlfriend.
But certainly not one of the busiest studio "cats" in L.A.
--
To reply remove MORESPAM
David Goodwin
<mike...@MORESPAMerols.com> wrote:
>She is lumped into "The Mother's Auxiliary." Carol Kaye at that
>point in time was unknown to anyone outside the recording
>business and for years I assumed that she was just one of the
>freaks who came in to bang on the rented percussion equipment. Or
>a groupie. Or somebody's girlfriend.
>
>But certainly not one of the busiest studio "cats" in L.A.
Well, I always assumed that she/sessions musicians played on some of
the cuts that already HAD session musicians, for example "How Could I
Be Such a Fool" and "You Didn't try To Call Me" on Freak Out! Both
have session players in the back, and I was always under the
impression that on those cuts, Kaye and the rest were there to flesh
things out.
Could be wrong, easily.
David
"Morrison even coined a new term: if Miller's works
were pornographic, then rock was pornophonic, or
even stereopornophonic, which was twice as bad."
-Linda Martin/Kerry Segrave
"Anti-Rock: An Opposition to Rock and Roll."
Michael Gula
>
> On Fri, 20 Aug 1999 07:03:16 -0400, largely a fun day, Michael Gula
> <mike...@MORESPAMerols.com> wrote:
>
> >She is lumped into "The Mother's Auxiliary." Carol Kaye at that
> >point in time was unknown to anyone outside the recording
> >business and for years I assumed that she was just one of the
> >freaks who came in to bang on the rented percussion equipment. Or
> >a groupie. Or somebody's girlfriend.
> >
> >But certainly not one of the busiest studio "cats" in L.A.
>
> Well, I always assumed that she/sessions musicians played on some of
> the cuts that already HAD session musicians, for example "How Could I
> Be Such a Fool" and "You Didn't try To Call Me" on Freak Out! Both
> have session players in the back, and I was always under the
> impression that on those cuts, Kaye and the rest were there to flesh
> things out.
>
> Could be wrong, easily.
Obviously, many of the tracks on Freak Out! have piano and vibes
on them and other "sweetening" instruments. But I would expect to
find that the guitars were played entirely by Zappa and Ingber,
since that is what is everywhere implied.
I am not suggesting that the first album by "The Mothers of
Invention" was a sham like the Monkees' albums or that of other
groups, but the presence of "auxiliary" guitarists makes what FZ
wrote on p. 74-75 of TRFZB seem a little disingenuous since I
doubt most people would think of guitars when they imagine
instruments being added for "orchestrational color."
Hope I'm not nit-picking on this.
Tom Tuerff
> Patrick Neve wrote:
> >
> > Tom Tuerff wrote:
> > >
> > > I was just at the Carol Kaye website where she lists having played
> > > 12-string guitar on Frank's "first two albums."
> > >
> > > I don't remember any 12-string guitar. What songs is she talking about?
> >
> > And THIS is strange. The all-music guide lists Carol Kaye as having
> > played bass on Freak Out.
>
> An understandable error, as she is better known as a bass player
> than a guitar player. But she says FZ had his own bass player and
> drummer and all the rest were studio guys. Taken at face value,
> it means that Elliot Ingber sat this one out, and there are a few
> more unsettling implications as well.
Well, go figure. MGM puts up the money for a DOUBLE ALBUM by a group
making its FIRST LP. Wouldn't you want to hedge your bet by getting Tom
Wilson to hire some studio vets? Hell, Wilson may have thought of it
himself. Hell hell, it may have been de rigeur at the time to hire studio
musicians to add meat to the bones. Hell, hell, hell, Brian Wilson was
already doing that for 5 years by the time Zappa and the boys recorded
Freak Out.
I remember getting all weirded out when I found out that ALL the Beatles
didn't play on ALL the songs. Even when it was obvious, like on Yesterday.
You mean that wasn't John playing guitar while Paul sang, with George and
Ringo on strings? :-)
TT
Michael Gula
> Well, go figure. MGM puts up the money for a DOUBLE ALBUM by a group
> making its FIRST LP. Wouldn't you want to hedge your bet by getting Tom
> Wilson to hire some studio vets? Hell, Wilson may have thought of it
> himself. Hell hell, it may have been de rigeur at the time to hire studio
> musicians to add meat to the bones. Hell, hell, hell, Brian Wilson was
> already doing that for 5 years by the time Zappa and the boys recorded
> Freak Out.
>
It certainly was "de rigeur" at that time to hire studio "cats."
FZ himself says so in TRFZB p. 74. But on p.75 he tells us that
his band was an exception.
Jack P. Armstrong
>didn't play on ALL the songs. Even when it was obvious, like on Yesterday.
>You mean that wasn't John playing guitar while Paul sang, with George and
>Ringo on strings? :-)
>
That was one of the cool things about the beatles, they'd switch off on
instruments all the time - especially after '65 or so.. Paul'd play drums or
piano, john or george would fiddle on a bass, ringo would sing, etc. etc. I
think George (Harrison) even played the synth on "Here Comes The Sun"...
Michael Gula
>
> On Sat, 21 Aug 1999 11:41:52 -0700, largely a fun day,
> ttu...@primenet.com (Tom Tuerff) wrote:
>
> >Well, go figure. MGM puts up the money for a DOUBLE ALBUM by a group
> >making its FIRST LP. Wouldn't you want to hedge your bet by getting Tom
> >Wilson to hire some studio vets? Hell, Wilson may have thought of it
> >himself. Hell hell, it may have been de rigeur at the time to hire studio
> >musicians to add meat to the bones. Hell, hell, hell, Brian Wilson was
> >already doing that for 5 years by the time Zappa and the boys recorded
> >Freak Out.
> >
> >didn't play on ALL the songs. Even when it was obvious, like on Yesterday.
> >You mean that wasn't John playing guitar while Paul sang, with George and
> >Ringo on strings? :-)
> >
>
> Well, this may be true, but in itself it makes the case that no studio
> musicians were really on Abfree. Why?
>
> Limited studio time, low budget...hell, the album is famously sloppy.
> Who would've sprung for the MONEY to hire studio musicians? Frank
> didn't have any, and MGM seemingly didn't care.
>
But it DOES have studio musicians...on Brown Shoes Don't Make It.
And whatever "sloppiness" there is could be blamed on Zappa's
musicians.
David Goodwin
ttu...@primenet.com (Tom Tuerff) wrote:
>Well, go figure. MGM puts up the money for a DOUBLE ALBUM by a group
>making its FIRST LP. Wouldn't you want to hedge your bet by getting Tom
>Wilson to hire some studio vets? Hell, Wilson may have thought of it
>himself. Hell hell, it may have been de rigeur at the time to hire studio
>musicians to add meat to the bones. Hell, hell, hell, Brian Wilson was
>already doing that for 5 years by the time Zappa and the boys recorded
>Freak Out.
>
>I remember getting all weirded out when I found out that ALL the Beatles
>didn't play on ALL the songs. Even when it was obvious, like on Yesterday.
>You mean that wasn't John playing guitar while Paul sang, with George and
>Ringo on strings? :-)
>
>TT
Well, this may be true, but in itself it makes the case that no studio
musicians were really on Abfree. Why?
Limited studio time, low budget...hell, the album is famously sloppy.
Who would've sprung for the MONEY to hire studio musicians? Frank
didn't have any, and MGM seemingly didn't care.
David
David Goodwin
<mike...@MORESPAMerols.com> wrote:
>
>But it DOES have studio musicians...on Brown Shoes Don't Make It.
>
>And whatever "sloppiness" there is could be blamed on Zappa's
>musicians.
Well, I've always felt that the MUSIC is impeccably performed,
largely, but that they had no time to perfect vocal overdubs...thus,
things like the laugher in Bernie's Farm are like happy accidents.
I could be wrong, though. That's just the feeling I got from reading
FZ's comments on the matter in TRFZB.