Sexism!
IO2...@maine.maine.edu
watch my girlfriend throw a fit as Frank hurls large amounts of
sexism through my speakers.
Just last night listening to a show from 84 (SPAC) Frank defines the
three classes of female:
A girl is someone who would like a kiss
A lady is someone who tells you to kiss her ass
A women is someone who appreciates it when you kiss her pussy
You shoulda seen my girlfriend squirm affter that one. Of course there
is always "Titties and Beer" or "1/2 dozen provacitive squats".Though
her stongest reaction came during a particularily raunchy "Honey, don't
you want a man like me?"
So you see Zappa's music serves many puposes, one of which is the
turning my girlfriend into an irate female.
Oh yeah, one more great Zappaism that got my girlfriend pissed was,
"I believe in only one women's movement. It's that one where they arch
their backs and grab onto the bedposts when your sticking it to them"
(Paraphrased, so not totally accurate)
Anyway I'm just rambling, but feel free to share you favorite sexist
Zappa moment.
Robert
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
ROBERT MARGESSON YOU'RE RACING WITH THE WIND UMAINE HOCKEY
156 PARK ST. C5 YOU'RE FLIRTING WITH DEATH BLACK BEARS
ORONO, ME 04473 SO HAVE A CUP OF COFFEE 1993 NCAA CHAMPS
(207)866-7342 AND CATCH YOUR BREATH. 42-1-2
Stephen Muth
was asking him questions.... one was something like "Why do you have
such a sexist attitude....?"
His response was (horribly paraphrasing)....
"Girls do stupid fucking things, just like the guys do. I make fun
of girls and guys alike. (bad paraphrase) Just because you got
one of these things between your legs (makes vertical chopping motion
with his hand) it's no problem."
I'm sorry. I lost it.
Johannes Labisch
This phrase can be found in the famous video
"DOES HUMOR BELONG IN MUSIC ?"
As I recall, Frank says:
"Some people pointed out that my treatment of women in lyrics and social comments is not particular positive.
And there's no reason why it shoul be:
Girls do stupid fucking things just like the guys do.
(...)
Don't be a whimp about it, just because you got that thing between your legs it's no problem.."
Jean-Charles Maillet
In article <93109.133...@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>, <IO2...@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:
> Am i the only one out here who loves to throw on a Zappa tape and
> watch my girlfriend throw a fit as Frank hurls large amounts of
> sexism through my speakers.
>
"...he get's in the car, but the battery's dead, so he asks to use the phone
and she gives him some head..." once made my girlfriend gush with furry.
(my toes were spinning seeing this girl writhing in purple)... also "Wet
T-shirt Nite" is a good one to lay on an unsuspecting angriable female.
Funny how they overlook the craftiness of it all ... especially the rythm.
Bj|rn Lisper
writes:
>Am i the only one out here who loves to throw on a Zappa tape and
>watch my girlfriend throw a fit as Frank hurls large amounts of
>sexism through my speakers.
>You shoulda seen my girlfriend squirm affter that one. Of course there
>is always "Titties and Beer" or "1/2 dozen provacitive squats".Though
>her stongest reaction came during a particularily raunchy "Honey, don't
>you want a man like me?"
>So you see Zappa's music serves many puposes, one of which is the
>turning my girlfriend into an irate female.
Hmmm... the funny thing is that many of the Zappa songs considered "sexist",
I can't find sexist. Many times he is rather *describing* what he sees,
without deeming it one way or another. "Honey, don't you want a man like
me?" is a good example, where he displays a typical (of the time) date
between two people who both have their sets of expectations, typically male
and typically female, and where the expectations happen to be quite
incompatible. I can't see Frank taking any preference between them here.
"1/2 dozen provocative squats" (or, rather, the whole side 2 of 200 Motels)
is also a good example, where Frank describes the groupie vs. rock musician
thing - it doesn't come out that well for the rock musicians. (I mean, they
are just going out to be able to "shove it right in".) Actually, I think you
can hear a certain *sadness* about the state of the matter sometimes, in
Franks texts.
"Well, at least, there's sort of a joy, there...
twenty'a thirty of times there have been,
somewhat desirable boys, there,
dressed very swifty with long hair,
waiting for their chance to shove it right in"
"- Home is where your heart is...
- On the bus"
Bjorn Lisper
Peter B. Harrington
>In article <93109.133...@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> <IO2...@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
>writes:
>>Am i the only one out here who loves to throw on a Zappa tape and
>>watch my girlfriend throw a fit as Frank hurls large amounts of
>>sexism through my speakers.
>....
The scarey part of Frank's lyrics, which by the way is fun to remind
male and females alike who get disturbed by them, is that they are based
in part and usually completely on real events. For example, Stevie's Spanking,
Enema Bandit and Jazz Discharge Party Hat. Which leads to my next two
questions.
1) I vaguely remember a second part to the jazz discharge party hat
that never made it to vinyl. It seems that the two guys in crew,
dropped off the tour, so they could travel to college campuses devoted to a
life of stealing women's bicycle seats (for snifter purposes). The funny
part was after the
show there was a rash of bicycle seat thefts on campus that was bad enough to
be noted in the student news paper. Did this version of the party hat
ever get recorded and make its way onto a bootleg album?
2) Is Bobby Brown based on any person in particular? I know there exists
a Bobby Brown now who could fit the description, but the song predates
his appearance by 10 years.
Pete
"The woman turned to the man, looked him directly in the eye and said
Why don't you get a job. I need some things around the house: clippers
scissors and a pair of zircon encrusted tweezers." -- FZ
Dianne Hackborn
>I can't find sexist. Many times he is rather *describing* what he sees,
>without deeming it one way or another. "Honey, don't you want a man like
>me?" is a good example, where he displays a typical (of the time) date
>between two people who both have their sets of expectations, typically male
>and typically female, and where the expectations happen to be quite
>incompatible. I can't see Frank taking any preference between them here.
Actually, I've always thought that the guy was getting it at least as bad
as the woman in that one... He _is_ a total asshole, isn't he? And Zappa
doesn't seem to be trying to make him look good at all. :)
Oh, and I always thought that the people in that song were getting exactly
what they expected - isn't that one of those Typical American Mating Rituals?
- Guy Romantically Woos girl, girl acts Sweet and Innocent.
[But we know what she's thinking, and we know what he's thinking, and she
knows what he's thinking and he knows what she's thinking.]
- Guy manipulates willing girl to somewhere that they can be alone.
- Guy reveals his Carnal Desires.
- Girl acts suprised and upset to protect her Feminine Purity.
- Guy acts angry to protect his Masculine Pride.
- Guy threatens to leave girl.
- Girl unwilling accepts guy's offer, so that she can keep him.
- They live happily ever after.
Bleah!!!! :)
>"1/2 dozen provocative squats" (or, rather, the whole side 2 of 200 Motels)
>is also a good example, where Frank describes the groupie vs. rock musician
>thing - it doesn't come out that well for the rock musicians. (I mean, they
>are just going out to be able to "shove it right in".) Actually, I think you
>can hear a certain *sadness* about the state of the matter sometimes, in
>Franks texts.
Yeah, I've always read these kinds of lyrics as "this is how some people are,
and aren't they stupid?" I think the biggest problem that a lot of people
have is that they tend to take his characters as being representations of a
group as a whole, rather than just examples of certain types of people that
he has met. This isn't such a problem for men, because not many people in
our society will take statements that "men are this" and "men are that"
seriously, while there are a _lot_ of people who will completely seriously
claim that "women are this" or "gays are that" or "blacks are such and
such." So it's easier for these people to interpret the lyrics and what I
think is not the intended way...
All totally and completely IMHO, of course. :)
-------------------------------------------------------
Dianne Kyra Hackborn "It's queer, queer fun
hac...@xanth.cs.orst.edu for you and me!"
BIX: dhack / IRC: Dianne
Oregon State University -- Two Nice Girls
Expressio Veri
>>Hmmm... the funny thing is that many of the Zappa songs considered "sexist",
>>I can't find sexist. Many times he is rather *describing* what he sees,
>>without deeming it one way or another.
Dianne Hackborn writes:
>Actually, I've always thought that the guy was getting it at least as bad
>as the woman in that one... He _is_ a total asshole, isn't he? And Zappa
>doesn't seem to be trying to make him look good at all. :)
>
Any way here is a quote from the REAL FRANK ZAPPA BOOK, Chapter 11
(Sticks and Stones), page 225 (Am I a 'Sexist' - or what?),
"If you were to take all the lyrics I`ve ever written and analyze how
many songs are about 'women in demeaning positions,' as opposed
to 'men in demeaning positions,' you would find that most
of the songs are about *stupid men*.
The songs I write about women are not gratuitous attacks on them, but
statements of fact. The song 'Jewish Princess' caused the Anti-Defamation
league of the B'nai B'rith to complain bitterly and demand an apology.
I did not apologize then and refuse to do so now because, unlike the Unicorn,
such creatures *do exist* - and deserve to be commemorated with their own
special opus.
Italians have an organization which seeks to 'maintain the fiction' that
there are no Italians in the Mafia, nor do they sell drugs while engaging
in murder for hire. If you want to believe that, fine - welcome to Fantasy
Land. If you want to believe that *wrestling is real*, go for it - and if
you want to believe that women are a wonderful species that :
[1] never goes to the toilet;
[2] can't possibly do anything wrong;
[3] is completely superior to men, then believe it - whatever makes you feel
good.
Pretty much covers his views and how they show up in his songs.
Samir Chettri
"She gets only half the blame" - FZ
Dianne Hackborn
>Bj|rn Lisper writes:
>
>Any way here is a quote from the REAL FRANK ZAPPA BOOK, Chapter 11
>(Sticks and Stones), page 225 (Am I a 'Sexist' - or what?),
[Quote deleted.]
Oh yeah, and I remember reading that now. :)
- Just another perverted-bi-zappa-loving woman... ;)
-------------------------------------------------------
Dianne Kyra Hackborn "Pat Buchannan is so
hac...@xanth.cs.orst.edu homophobic he blames global
BIX: dhack / IRC: Dianne warming on the AIDS quilt."
Oregon State University -- Dennis Miller
Jon Bradley
I guess the one that really sorts out the fem-men from the boys
has to be Dyna Moe Hum. I can't construct an argument that could
suggest that this was not a piece of grossly explicit sexism.....so......
....just make sure that there ain't no ladies in the room next time you play
it......8-)
__________________
|___________ |
| / |
| / | 'Mom, I tore a big hole in the
| / /\ | convertible.'
|___/________/__\__|
| |
|__________________| <<<<<<<< Bald-Headed Jon >>>>>>>>
jh...@cix.compulink.co.uk
Compuserve 100113,2074
>>>MATRIX version 1.22a
Brian Downing
> 2) Is Bobby Brown based on any person in particular? I know there exists
> a Bobby Brown now who could fit the description, but the song predates
> his appearance by 10 years.
It was my understanding that this was shortly after FZ's trouble with
Warner Bros. Records and that the Chairman/CEO of WB at that time was
a man named Robert Brown. This is just hearsay, I never bothered to
verify this, can anyone confirm it?
--
brian...
brian downing@->fordham university, nyc ny
br...@dsm.fordham.edu bdow...@mary.fordham.edu
Adeena J. Mignogna
>
>I guess the one that really sorts out the fem-men from the boys
>has to be Dyna Moe Hum. I can't construct an argument that could
>suggest that this was not a piece of grossly explicit sexism.....so......
>
>....just make sure that there ain't no ladies in the room next time you play
>it......8-)
>
I feel like the only female who can find humor in FZ's lyrics...
When I first heard FZ years ago, I thought "here's a guy who is
outrightly sexist and has no respect for women". I'm not
sure how or when... but somewhere along the line, my attitude
changed. I now find his lyrics just plain humorous. I wish I could
explain myself better, or just explain why.
What is sexism anyway?? It's an attitude.... a negative one towards
women. I don't believe that FZ's attitude towards women is negative.
His lyrics and just lyrics... this is purely speculative, but I
don't believe that he takes his lyrics anymore seriously then I
do. I can't tell anyone what FZ's thoughts and feelings are, but
from what I've seen, read and from the overall sense I get from
him, I don't believe that he has any kind of "negativeness" towards
women.
Like I just said.... I don't think he takes his lyrics as serious
meaningful words... and again, I can't speak for him, but I believe
that his music is more important...
his music is wondeful
his lyrics are humerous
...and Dinah-more Humm is one of my favortie songs...
-Adeena
I am woman.... Hear me roar
Dianne Hackborn
>In article <memo....@cix.compulink.co.uk> jh...@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:
>>
>>I guess the one that really sorts out the fem-men from the boys
>>has to be Dyna Moe Hum. I can't construct an argument that could
>>suggest that this was not a piece of grossly explicit sexism.....so......
>>
>>....just make sure that there ain't no ladies in the room next time you play
>>it......8-)
>>
>
>I feel like the only female who can find humor in FZ's lyrics...
There's at least _one_ other here... :)
>When I first heard FZ years ago, I thought "here's a guy who is
>outrightly sexist and has no respect for women". I'm not
>sure how or when... but somewhere along the line, my attitude
>changed. I now find his lyrics just plain humorous. I wish I could
>explain myself better, or just explain why.
Yeah, I think realizing that his lyrics aren't intended to be serious is
important when trying to understand his songs. And he also does a lot of
things that you would hardly ever never hear in a song before listening to
him - putting humorous lyrics within incredible music; narratoring the song
as one of the characters, and not has himself or even someone that he
thinks is "good" [ie, Bobby Brown]; usings a _lot_ of sarcasm which, as
Usenet seems to show, a large number of people have trouble understanding;
and he doesn't seem to be too concerned about whether anyone interprets his
songs how he was intending.
And probably the most important thing for me was realizing that he just
doesn't take anything seriously, including himself.
>What is sexism anyway?? It's an attitude.... a negative one towards
>women. I don't believe that FZ's attitude towards women is negative.
Yeah. Or at least, it's not any more negative than it is towards anything
else. :)
>His lyrics and just lyrics... this is purely speculative, but I
>don't believe that he takes his lyrics anymore seriously then I
>do.
He definately claims that he doesn't take any of his lyrics seriously.
However, sometimes I wonder how much of that isn't a way to protect his
opinions somewhat - I can certainly find it hard to explicately state my
opinion, expecially when it's controversial. So, stating it within a joke
is a way to protect yourself from negative reactions...
>I can't tell anyone what FZ's thoughts and feelings are, but
>from what I've seen, read and from the overall sense I get from
>him, I don't believe that he has any kind of "negativeness" towards
>women.
I sometimes wonder about how few women he had in his bands, but then when
you look at how many women _musicians_ there are in rock as a whole, he's
probably had a higher percentage. :/
>Like I just said.... I don't think he takes his lyrics as serious
>meaningful words... and again, I can't speak for him, but I believe
>that his music is more important...
Yeah, in his book one of the sections is titled, "My Lyrics Are Dumb. So
What?"
>his music is wondeful
Yes!
>his lyrics are humerous
Yep...
>...and Dinah-more Humm is one of my favortie songs...
One of mine, too. And for that person who couldn't see how it could be
interpreted as anything except sexism, I'll try to completely over-analize
it... :)
[No, this is _not_ what I think about when I listen to the song. I mostly
like it because the whole thing is just totally silly, like most his other
songs. :)]
First it starts of with a bet of a "forty dollar" bill. This is probably
best seen as a huge sign saying to not take the rest of the song too
seriously. However, that's a pretty cheap way out. Instead, how about
thinking that there is no such thing as a $40 bill, so Dinah-Moe is
basically betting nothing - she must not expect to win the bet, and must
actually be making the bet from some Ulterior Motive.
The obvious conclusion is that she really _wants_ him to make her cum. But
when he tries, he isn't able to and she says "I got a spot that gets me
hot, but you ain't been to it," and then, "'Cause I can't get into it
unless I get out of it." So, she wants to enjoy sex but it has to be, in
her mind, against her will and not something she is seeking.
Looked at this way, Dinah-Moe and her sister can represent the two sexual
stereotypes of women - Dinah-Moe is the good "pure lady" who is nonsexual
and supposed to be the type of woman that a man would marry, and her sister
is the bad nymphomaniac who, through her hypersexuality, causes men to
loose their control so they can fulfill her [and their] desires.
Now, you can add even more to this by looking at when the song was written.
In the early 70's, society was in the process of starting to allow 'normal'
women to be sexual creatures and not feel guilty about expressing their
sexuality. However, in this move from viewing the "pure lady" as what all
women should strive for and want to be, we went to the other extreme and
started to hold up the "hypersexual woman" as the true representation of
womanhood. In the song, Dinah-Moe is shown to be sexual even though she
won't admit it, and so she moves over to the only other role available for
her - the nymphomaniac. And the narrator says, "MMM... sounds like y'might
be chokin' on somethin'." She doesn't find either role comfortable for her.
Finally, the reference to S&M and, "All she really needed was some
discipline..." is kind of interesting, because the same year that album
came out, Nancy Friday published her book _My Secret Garden_, where she
presented the sexual fantasies of a large number of women that she
interviewed. One of the most notable things about it was how many of them
were fantasies of being submissive [and particularily rape fantasies], and
she suggested that this may be a way for them to have and enjoy sex without
the guilt brought on by being sexual when they aren't supposed to.
Well, there you go. Proof you can rationalize anything. :)
-------------------------------------------------------
Dianne Kyra Hackborn This text was made of 100%
hac...@xanth.cs.orst.edu recycled thoughts and
BIX: dhack / IRC: Dianne contains only ideas which
Oregon State University are internet-degradable.
Expressio Veri
Adeena wrote:
>>I feel like the only female who can find humor in FZ's lyrics...
Dianne wrote:
>There's at least _one_ other here... :)
>
While at NASA, there was a woman who also liked Zappa. We got friendly
when she saw one of my Zappa posters. So there is atleast one other...
Dianne wrote:
>I sometimes wonder about how few women he had in his bands, but then when
>you look at how many women _musicians_ there are in rock as a whole, he's
>probably had a higher percentage. :/
>
Well, his attitude is "can they play?" His attitude toward Ruth Underwood
was always complimentary because of her great skills. If there was a
woman who could play stunt guitar like Steve Vai, he'd use her in a
flash.
In an interview about the rehersals for Yellow Shark he was full of
praise for an Aussie who missed a flight to stay on in LA. His
attitude has been, if you love music, and want to play it, you
are my type of guy (and gal).
Samir
Davina Gray - SUN Scotland
>
>I guess the one that really sorts out the fem-men from the boys
>has to be Dyna Moe Hum. I can't construct an argument that could
>suggest that this was not a piece of grossly explicit sexism.....so......
>
>it......8-)
Suppose I'd better turn the hi-fi up pretty loud then so that I can
listen from the other room and sing along ;-) or are you implying
I'm no lady if I enjoy Zappa (including Dyna Moe) ?
Davina
Davina Gray - SUN Scotland
>In article <1993Apr25.2...@wam.umd.edu> qua...@wam.umd.edu (Adeena J. Mignogna) writes:
>>In article <memo....@cix.compulink.co.uk> jh...@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:
>>>
>>>I guess the one that really sorts out the fem-men from the boys
>>>has to be Dyna Moe Hum. I can't construct an argument that could
>>>suggest that this was not a piece of grossly explicit sexism.....so......
>>>
>>>....just make sure that there ain't no ladies in the room next time you play
>>>it......8-)
>>>
>>
>>I feel like the only female who can find humor in FZ's lyrics...
>
>There's at least _one_ other here... :)
Me too - I love his stuff; and not just the humourous songs.
I'm wondering if some of the male attitudes have got something to do
with the _apparent_ lack of female appreciators of Frank ? (Let's just ignore
the potentially high male:female ratio on the net for simplicity, eh ?)
If a guy is into Zappa, but doesn't play any of it to his female
acquaintances for fear of offending them or whatever, then how on earth
are they ever going to hear any of it and like it ? It's not as if it's
on the radio every day; so if you don't get the chance to know
something exists how can you even express an opinion on it ? If your
female friends are offended, then that's sad. Maybe you know the wrong
kind of women ! :-)
>>...and Dinah-more Humm is one of my favortie songs...
>
>One of mine, too. And for that person who couldn't see how it could be
>interpreted as anything except sexism, I'll try to completely over-analize
>it... :)
>
Thanks Adeena. Show the guys that maybe _they're_ being sexist
(flame-protective jacket on) for taking songs like Dinah Moe at face
value and not bothering to try to analyse it because it's obvious what
it's about.
I like it too. Almost as much fun to sing along to as 'Harder than your
husband'. Anyone want to start debating that one ?!
Davina
------------------------------------------------------------
Davina Gray davin...@uk.sun.com
Sun Microsystems
Linlithgow
Scotland
L Clator Butler Jr
I think Alladin Sarsuppius Sulemanagic Jackson III (of Infectious
Grooves fame) says it best on the new disc:
"let us not try to analyze the concept...groove and move..."
Frank is one of heavy concept in his lyrics, but they are not usually
intended as this deep in thought. Enjoy them for the humorous content.
Jeeze, folks...
--Clator
Glenn Wiltse
>has to be Dyna Moe Hum. I can't construct an argument that could
>suggest that this was not a piece of grossly explicit sexism.....so......
>
>....just make sure that there ain't no ladies in the room next time you play
>it......8-)
clear, ladies, can and do enjoy Fank Zappa's hummorous lyrics, even the ones
that seem obviously degrading to the female characters portraied in the songs.
Actualy I have always thought that Dyna Moe Hum, is a kind of a slam on
the whole drug abused life styles that many of us chose to live at one point
or other in our lives.
At any rate I think if any man or woman is realitively open minded they
should not be too offended by any of Zappa's lyrics.
James McCartney
>twenty'a thirty of times there have been,
>somewhat desirable boys, there,
>dressed very swifty with long hair,
>waiting for their chance to shove it right in"
this is what I hear:
Well at least there's sort of a choice there
twenty or thirty at times there have been
somewhat desirable boys, there,
dressed really spiffy with long hair
waiting for girls they can shove it right in.
--- james mccartney
David Millman
My favourite sexist-schmexist FZ quote is
"Ain't this what livin's really all about?"
Pretty much sums it up for me...
In Fembot, seems to me, there's a ratio of one stupid female to one
hundred stupid males.
Anyway, my best story about offending a female with FZ goes like this:
I've got my girlfriend and one of hers in the car and she asks me to
put on some FZ...all I had in the car was Joe's Garage. So I flip in the
cassette in the middle of Joe's rendezvous with Cy and Bob...
"Bloooow job...gimme that gimme that Bloooow job"
The girl's quote was "That's really offensive!"
I couldn't stop laughing long enough to tell her that there were no
girls involved! 8-)+)
--
裳屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯屯鸦
痰 Ain't this what livin's really all about? -FZ 乒
恿哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪哪两
jr...@eagle.wesleyan.edu
playing 'Overnight Sensation' one night when we were in his dorm. I suppose
that the timing was kind of right to some lines in 'Dyna Moe Humm'. I then
was partially associated with the song. When I went to college, I asked
everyone I knew if they had a Frank Zappa tape with a song called Dyna Moe Humm
and a song with a poodle. Once I found the tape and listened to the lyrics I
just blushed and got a good laugh out of it.
Since then I have read the Real Frank Zappa Book and greatly expanded my
musical collection. I now have a much greater Zappa musical library than that
old boyfriend.
Yes, I do like 'Dyna Moe Humm'. I do understand Zappa's arguments against the
accusations of sexism. I still listen to him often. I just cringe a bit
everytime he casually mentions rape or unprovoked violence (and I'm not talking
S&M) even and especially if it supposed to be funny.
Dianne Hackborn
>
>Thanks Adeena. Show the guys that maybe _they're_ being sexist
>(flame-protective jacket on) for taking songs like Dinah Moe at face
>value and not bothering to try to analyse it because it's obvious what
>it's about.
Actually, I think that was _my_ ermmm... "analysis" you're talking about.
And you're welcome. ;)
>I like it too. Almost as much fun to sing along to as 'Harder than your
>husband'. Anyone want to start debating that one ?!
Oh yeah!! That's a great one too! :) Of course, I think on this one it's
pretty obvious that the guy's a total jerk. :)
-------------------------------------------------------
David Millman
In a previous article, hac...@xanth.CS.ORST.EDU (Dianne Hackborn) says:
Re. Harder Than Your Husband:
>Oh yeah!! That's a great one too! :) Of course, I think on this one it's
>pretty obvious that the guy's a total jerk. :)
The gal he's singing to must be quite a loser herself, cheating on
her husband with such a jerk :-).
How about Brown Shoes Don't make it:
"...a girl about 13, Off with her clothes, and into a bed..."
...or maybe thirteen's not too young?
To continue with the gratuitous violence in some Zappa lyrics,
the only part of any Joe's Garage disc that bugs me is that bit
in Fembot in a Wet T-shirt about the ice-pick...does that not
bother any of you? It almost spoils the song for me, so if you
can tell me how you see it, maybe I'll get over it.
Dianne Hackborn
>
>In a previous article, hac...@xanth.CS.ORST.EDU (Dianne Hackborn) says:
>
>Re. Harder Than Your Husband:
>
>>Oh yeah!! That's a great one too! :) Of course, I think on this one it's
>>pretty obvious that the guy's a total jerk. :)
>
>The gal he's singing to must be quite a loser herself, cheating on
>her husband with such a jerk :-).
Ah yeah, well I guess she is. :)
>How about Brown Shoes Don't make it:
>
>"...a girl about 13, Off with her clothes, and into a bed..."
>
>...or maybe thirteen's not too young?
On the version from _Absolutely Free_, it's pretty clear that this is a
Sleazy Small-Time Politician [named "City Hall Fred" :)], fantasizing about
these young women he can have the day he becomes President. I think you're
quoting the version from _Tinsel Town Rebellion_, where Zappa takes the part
of Fred, so it's not quite as clear about his attitude... But in the
original version, Fred is definately a major slime-ball. ;)
[And _Absolutely Free_ is also one of my favorite albums, partly because
of that song... Plus the last one, that's in this 40's-type dance hall, is
completely hilarious... And Call Any Vegetable... And... :)]
>To continue with the gratuitous violence in some Zappa lyrics,
>the only part of any Joe's Garage disc that bugs me is that bit
>in Fembot in a Wet T-shirt about the ice-pick...does that not
>bother any of you? It almost spoils the song for me, so if you
>can tell me how you see it, maybe I'll get over it.
This one has actually never struck me. At least it's never seemed to me as
suggesting someone should actually take an ice-pick to her forehead.
Remember, the M.C. was previously a Catholic Priest and will later become
L. Ron Hoover, so he's probably Yet Another Sleazy Guy. [Not only that,
but Zappa plays both the Priest/M.C./Hoover character and the Central
Scrutinizer. Hint, hint! :)]
Anyway, first the M.C. pretends like he's throwing the water on Mary, she
screams, and then he says, "...sounds like you just got an ice pick in the
forehead... And here comes the ice pick in the forehead," and _then_
throws the water on her... So, I can kind of interpret that as saying,
"having Mary stand on a stage in front of a bunch of guys and throwing
water on her so they can get some sort of excitement by seeing her breasts
is just about the same as putting an ice pick in her forehead."
Hmmm... Maybe... :)
Oh well, gee this is fun! Anything else you want me to attempt to
interpret as man-hating feminism? ;)
-------------------------------------------------------
Dianne Kyra Hackborn "It's queer, queer fun
hac...@xanth.cs.orst.edu for you and me!"
BIX: dhack / IRC: Dianne
gva...@eagle.wesleyan.edu
> In article <memo....@cix.compulink.co.uk> jh...@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:
>>
>>I guess the one that really sorts out the fem-men from the boys
>>has to be Dyna Moe Hum. I can't construct an argument that could
>>suggest that this was not a piece of grossly explicit sexism.....so......
>>
IMHO, what is important here is not whether Zappa's serious or not (and of
course, he isn't), but that he isn't afraid to say things that might (gasp!)
offend someone. Thank heaven that there are still people in this battered
country of ours who haven't relinquished their right of free speech to placate
practitioners of political correctness!
Guido
Thomas Schmitt
>
>I guess the one that really sorts out the fem-men from the boys
>has to be Dyna Moe Hum. I can't construct an argument that could
>suggest that this was not a piece of grossly explicit sexism.....so......
>
>....just make sure that there ain't no ladies in the room next time you play
>it......8-)
On my vinyl copy of Over-Nite Sensation, printed in Spain during the
Franco era, they replaced Dinah Moe Hum by Eat That Question from
The Grand Wazoo album.
Any other examples for censorship by states or record companies?
Thomas
Peter B. Harrington
>the only part of any Joe's Garage disc that bugs me is that bit
>in Fembot in a Wet T-shirt about the ice-pick...does that not
>bother any of you? It almost spoils the song for me, so if you
>can tell me how you see it, maybe I'll get over it.
>
>
in this case. Having ice water dumped on you and perhaps over you,
is probably similar to chugging a slurpy or frozen margarita. If
you have had any of these three experiences you may recall getting
a headache that felt like an ice pick in the forehead. I don't
believe an reasonable person would interpret that Mary is going
to have her head split open in front of a crowd.
Don't get me wrong, I think its great that some women
like Zappa's music. My wife really likes "Harder than my husband"
also. What I find disturbing in Joe's garage is the fine print
at the end where Zappa says "One day music may become illegal
in the US, just like it is in Iran." The idea of music being
outlawed is not so far fetched, especially when you listen to our
good ole boys in Congress like Jesse Helms and Fritz Hollings.
Pete
"I'll do ANYTHING for fifty bucks!" - Mary
David Lovell
|>
|> "...a girl about 13, Off with her clothes, and into a bed..."
|>
|> ...or maybe thirteen's not too young?
Welcome to the land of contentious issues, where beauty (and therefore ugliness)
is in the eye of the beholder. And as FZ says "Beauty is not truth" so logically
an attitude does not define an issue.
|> To continue with the gratuitous violence in some Zappa lyrics,
|> the only part of any Joe's Garage disc that bugs me is that bit
|> in Fembot in a Wet T-shirt about the ice-pick...does that not
|> bother any of you? It almost spoils the song for me, so if you
|> can tell me how you see it, maybe I'll get over it.
I get the feeling that the ice-pick line was thrown in because Dale
Bozzio didn't quite capture the squeak that Zappa was looking for (after
she got hit by the imaginary bucket of cold water).
The line that chokes me up is the one about "Home is where the heart is"
..."On the bus". For some reason I find that one of the saddest of lyrics.
Matt Wright
>Anyway, first the M.C. pretends like he's throwing the water on Mary, she
>screams, and then he says, "...sounds like you just got an ice pick in the
>forehead... And here comes the ice pick in the forehead," and _then_
>throws the water on her... So, I can kind of interpret that as saying,
>"having Mary stand on a stage in front of a bunch of guys and throwing
>water on her so they can get some sort of excitement by seeing her breasts
>is just about the same as putting an ice pick in her forehead."
>
>Hmmm... Maybe... :)
I interpret that differently. Dale Bozzio is trying to act like the most
shallow, slutty, airheaded woman, in the role of Mary. She's going along
great being a spaced-out "fembot", but when Zappa pretends to throw the
water on her, he doesn't like the way she squeaks.
So Zappa drops the Buddy Jones character and says, as Frank Zappa talking to
Dale Bozzio, that Mary's scream should have been different. Then, to
emphasize the point, he says "and here comes the ice pick in the forehead".
Then after that little out-of-character joke, they get back into it, and
they become Buddy Jones and Mary again.
-Matt
Todd C. Williams
>|> To continue with the gratuitous violence in some Zappa lyrics,
>|> the only part of any Joe's Garage disc that bugs me is that bit
>|> in Fembot in a Wet T-shirt about the ice-pick...does that not
>|> bother any of you? It almost spoils the song for me, so if you
>|> can tell me how you see it, maybe I'll get over it.
>
>I get the feeling that the ice-pick line was thrown in because Dale
>Bozzio didn't quite capture the squeak that Zappa was looking for
Yes, I totally agree. That's where the track starts to sound like
a bad take, and Frank just improvises and later even leaves it in
the final product. It is weird that the section wasn't redone, but
this is FZ, so it's not *that* weird.
--
Todd Williams UNIX Systems Coordinator to...@macsch.com (213) 259-4973
MacNeal-Schwendler Corp. ("MSC"), 815 Colorado Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 90041
>> "Solaris 2.0 --- It's enough to make you leave the company." -Rob Kolstad <<
Expressio Veri
>..."On the bus". For some reason I find that one of the saddest of lyrics.
Yes. Another line that I find saddening is:
"What was this abject misery?
Carolina hardcore ecstasy."
Samir
Red Sonja
>>
>>I guess the one that really sorts out the fem-men from the boys
>>has to be Dyna Moe Hum. I can't construct an argument that could
>>suggest that this was not a piece of grossly explicit sexism.....so......
>>
>>....just make sure that there ain't no ladies in the room next time you play
>>it......8-)
>>
>
>I feel like the only female who can find humor in FZ's lyrics...
>When I first heard FZ years ago, I thought "here's a guy who is
>outrightly sexist and has no respect for women". I'm not
>sure how or when... but somewhere along the line, my attitude
>changed. I now find his lyrics just plain humorous. I wish I could
>explain myself better, or just explain why.
Maybe because you realized he wasn't just making fun of the women, he
was making fun of *everybody*. His songs are about funny things. Some
of those funny things are women. Some of those funny things are men.
And LOTS of those funny things are what women do with/to men, and
vice versa.
[ stuff deleted for bandwidth's sake ]
>...and Dinah-more Humm is one of my favortie songs...
I kinda like "Camarillo Brillo", but D-M H is ok.
> I am woman.... Hear me roar
I am continually amused by guys who try to play Zappa to piss the women
off. They show me that they missed the point almost as badly as the women
who actually get pissed off. I wonder when Zappa is going to write a song
about *them*. (Although "Honey Don't You Want A Man Like Me" comes close.)
I am woman, hear me yawn.
BTW, does anyone know the full quote by FZ which starts out:
"Truth is not beauty" and ends "Music is best"? I saw it on the back of a
tour shirt once, thought it was The Shit, but did not have time to copy
it down. Please, if you know the whole thing, could you email or post?
Thanks.
--
reds...@olias.linet.org \\\RS/// Self possession is 9/10 of the law.
Alien: "We control the laws of nature!" | "How come when it's human, it's an
Joel: "And you still dress that way?" | abortion, but when it's a chicken,
(MST3K#17 - Gamera vs Guiron) | it's an omelet?" - George Carlin
Jon Bradley
Yea but Harder than your Husband is real satire......! :-)
__________________
|___________ |
| / |
| / | 'Mom, I tore a big hole in the
| / /\ | convertible.'
|___/________/__\__|
| |
|__________________| <<<<<<<< Bald-Headed Jon >>>>>>>>
jh...@cix.compulink.co.uk
Compuserve 100113,2074
>>>MATRIX version 1.23a
Jon Bradley
Heavy.........
Diverging a little from the original thread I hear that the Bnai Brith
anti-defamation league [who Frank managed to anger with the now infamous
Jewish Princess song] have recently been found out to have collecting info on
ANC leaders on behalf of some South African government agencies.
Anyone spotted this in the SF press.
[I also heard that the NY Times *hadn't* reported this.
Jon
>>>MATRIX version 1.23a
Larry Huntley
>
>Any other examples for censorship by states or record companies?
>
See "The Real Frank Zappa Book", page 84, where MGM chopped out lyrics
from "Let's Make the Water Turn Black" and why.
Later on in the book, Gail relates the flap about "Thing-Fish."
- Larry
--
Larry Huntley | Who...gonna look in your window?
(lar...@lmc.com) | Who...gonna know?
Logic Modeling Corporation | Who...gives a tinker's dam what you
Beaverton, OR | show? - Bill Champlin, "Who"
Dianne Hackborn
|I interpret that differently. Dale Bozzio is trying to act like the most
|shallow, slutty, airheaded woman, in the role of Mary. She's going along
|great being a spaced-out "fembot", but when Zappa pretends to throw the
|water on her, he doesn't like the way she squeaks.
|
|So Zappa drops the Buddy Jones character and says, as Frank Zappa talking to
|Dale Bozzio, that Mary's scream should have been different. Then, to
|emphasize the point, he says "and here comes the ice pick in the forehead".
|
|Then after that little out-of-character joke, they get back into it, and
|they become Buddy Jones and Mary again.
Well, that's probably closer to reality than mine... But I still like mine
better. Who says I have to live in the real world? :)
-------------------------------------------------------
Dianne Kyra Hackborn "Don't we all deserve
hac...@xanth.cs.orst.edu more than a kinder and
BIX: dhack / IRC: Dianne gentler fuck?"
Shannon Lawson
>the only part of any Joe's Garage disc that bugs me is that bit
>in Fembot in a Wet T-shirt about the ice-pick...does that not
>bother any of you? It almost spoils the song for me, so if you
>can tell me how you see it, maybe I'll get over it.
Actually, if you listen carefully, it seems as though many moments on
Joe's Garage are improvised, including the "ice pick" section. Dale
Bozzio is supposed to squeal with delight as she is soaked by the
"water" (rendered by a crash cymbal). The squeal is pretty
uninspired, so Frank says to Dale (something like), "No, you'd
squeal more if you were actually hit by the water. That sounded
more like an ice pick through the forehead... AND HERE COMES THE
ICE PICK THROUGH THE FOREHEAD! Great, Mary, a million laughs..."
It sounds like Frank tried to coax a more realistic reaction from
"Mary", and just decided to leave it on the recording "as is", rather
than doing a re-take.
Other "out-takes-left-in" seem to include the flubbed line where the
Central Scrutinizer tries to say "The First Church of Appliantology"
(Frank goofs it the first time, and just starts over). There's some
good random-type stuff in "Green Rosetta" too...
Hope this clears up that violent ice pick thing. :-)
===============================================================================
Shannon Lawson, Systems Designer | "Knowledge is chimera - for beyond
Advanced Microcontroller Division | it ever lies other knowledge, and
Motorola Semiconductor Products Sector | the incompleteness of what is known
Austin, TX | renders the knowing false."
e-mail: law...@zappa.sps.mot.com | -- Stephen R. Donaldson
Disclaimer: Employed by, but not speaking on behalf of, Motorola SPS Austin.
===============================================================================
Adeena J. Mignogna
>
> Don't get me wrong, I think its great that some women
> like Zappa's music. My wife really likes "Harder than my husband"
> also. What I find disturbing in Joe's garage is the fine print
> at the end where Zappa says "One day music may become illegal
> in the US, just like it is in Iran." The idea of music being
> outlawed is not so far fetched, especially when you listen to our
> good ole boys in Congress like Jesse Helms and Fritz Hollings.
>
> Pete
>
> "I'll do ANYTHING for fifty bucks!" - Mary
just a little tidbit... If any of you have read anything about FZ's
stuff against the "Washington Wives", you'll probably already know
this...
the Washington wives came out with a list of I think it was 10
or 15 music groups and performers that were sending bad messages,
etc and should be boycotted... amoung those were ozzy ozbourne and
madonna (the madonna of several years ago... way before like a
prayer or "truth or dare" came out)... and some other people who
you might not think would be on such a list. However, Frank
Zappa wasn't included...
I always thought that was kind of funny.
-Adeena
David Lovell
|> >
|> >The line that chokes me up is the one about "Home is where the heart is"
|> >..."On the bus". For some reason I find that one of the saddest of lyrics.
|>
|> Yes. Another line that I find saddening is:
|>
|> "What was this abject misery?
|> Carolina hardcore ecstasy."
OK folks, it's on. For all you Zappaphiles out there in internetland, this is your golden
opportunity to quote the FZ lyrics/tunes/concepts which you find sad. (ie sad as in "Gee,
I'm all choked up," NOT sad as in "This amoral and perverted filth saddens me in the
extreme, burn in ...")
Email these bits and pieces to me and I'll post a summary at the end of the week. If you
are quoting instrumental passages, it'd be nice if you can put the start/stop times of the
segment.
I don't remember who it was who said that laughter and tears are closely related but I
must admit that nothing packs a punch quite like a sad line in a seemingly happy song.
David
Stephen Muth
In "Call Any Vegetable"
"...holding your joint while the neighbors decide..."
changed to "...holding your hand while the neighbors decide..."
Also.... in "Mother People" (We're only in it for the money version)
"shut your fuckin' mouth about the length of my hair.." the entire
stanza was cut. I wouldn't have known about it, except I grew up on the
album "Mothermania" - where this little ditty got by (at least on the
copy I heard). I'm sure there's plenty more.
Bj|rn Lisper
(Red Sonja) writes:
>I am continually amused by guys who try to play Zappa to piss the women
>off. They show me that they missed the point almost as badly as the women
>who actually get pissed off. I wonder when Zappa is going to write a song
>about *them*. (Although "Honey Don't You Want A Man Like Me" comes close.)
Hear, hear...
>BTW, does anyone know the full quote by FZ which starts out:
>"Truth is not beauty" and ends "Music is best"? I saw it on the back of a
>tour shirt once, thought it was The Shit, but did not have time to copy
>it down. Please, if you know the whole thing, could you email or post?
>Thanks.
It goes like this:
Information is not knowledge
Knowledge is not wisdom
Wisdom is not truth
Truth is not beauty
Beauty is not love
Love is not music
Music is the best
I have the T-shirt. Being an associate professor in Computer Science, I find
it amusing to wear the shirt in class...
Bjorn Lisper
David Millman
In a previous article, lis...@sics.se (Bj|rn Lisper) says:
>In article <1993Apr29.1...@olias.linet.org> reds...@olias.linet.org
>(Red Sonja) writes:
>
>>I am continually amused by guys who try to play Zappa to piss the women
>>off. They show me that they missed the point almost as badly as the women
>>who actually get pissed off. I wonder when Zappa is going to write a song
>>about *them*. (Although "Honey Don't You Want A Man Like Me" comes close.)
>
>Hear, hear...
I don't play Zappa in order to piss off any women, but it amuses me, as
you say it amuses you, to see someone blow a fuse over something that
they have completely misunderstood. Once you have seen this happen a
few times, you might even _expect_ it to happen again, so if one were
to stumble upon a woman whom one had the urge to piss off, one might
play Zappa hoping that she would "miss the point."
--
David Millman "Kids if you want some fun..." -DF
aa...@freenet.carleton.ca
Mahavishnu Chris Farley
> Yes, I do like 'Dyna Moe Humm'. I do understand Zappa's arguments against the
> accusations of sexism. I still listen to him often. I just cringe a bit
> everytime he casually mentions rape or unprovoked violence (and I'm not talking
> S&M) even and especially if it supposed to be funny.
>
> Joy
> jr...@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Are you referring to the rape references in Joe's Garage, in particular the
prison section? I'm thinking of "Keep It Greasy" here. Has Zappa made other
such rape references? I can't really think of any rape-oriented lyrics that
specifically pertain to women. If there are any out there, could we maybe
discuss this?
The casual and humorous discussion of prison rape in Joe's Garage is perhaps
one of the most disturbing aspects of his lyrics. You can't really classify
this as a "sexist" lyric. It's been a while since I've listened to this, and I
can't quite remember the context, so I don't feel qualified to make any comment
on WHAT he was trying to do in Keep It Greasy. I don't believe, however, that
he was glorifying rape, however. But it does seem that he was getting a laugh
out of it. But we never said that Mr. Zappa was a tasteful fellow...
Are there any mentions of female rape in his extensive catalog? That, I
believe, would disturb me more (although I'm not quite sure why).
Also, we've talked about whether or not Zappa is a sexist, but what about
homophobic tendencies? I think that might be just as difficult to pin him down
on.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Christopher Farley ---
--- The James Page Brewing Company ---
--- Minneapolis, Minnesota ---
--- cfa...@macalstr.edu ---
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dianne Hackborn
> Are you referring to the rape references in Joe's Garage, in particular the
>prison section? I'm thinking of "Keep It Greasy" here. Has Zappa made other
>such rape references? I can't really think of any rape-oriented lyrics that
>specifically pertain to women. If there are any out there, could we maybe
>discuss this?
> The casual and humorous discussion of prison rape in Joe's Garage is perhaps
>one of the most disturbing aspects of his lyrics. You can't really classify
>this as a "sexist" lyric. It's been a while since I've listened to this, and I
>can't quite remember the context, so I don't feel qualified to make any comment
>on WHAT he was trying to do in Keep It Greasy. I don't believe, however, that
>he was glorifying rape, however. But it does seem that he was getting a laugh
>out of it. But we never said that Mr. Zappa was a tasteful fellow...
> Are there any mentions of female rape in his extensive catalog? That, I
>believe, would disturb me more (although I'm not quite sure why).
> Also, we've talked about whether or not Zappa is a sexist, but what about
>homophobic tendencies? I think that might be just as difficult to pin him down
>on.
Being er... somewhat queer... :)
I think at first it is extremely easy to peg him as homophobic, and
actually spent a lot of time wondering about that. At the very least, I
think that homosexuality is probably _the_ subject that comes up the most
in his lyrics; every where you turn some guy is getting screwed by some
other guy. However, after thinking about it some more, I realized that it
wasn't usually _homosexuality_ that was being talked about, but the act of
not just gay sex but any kind of sex - Joe gets screwed by Sy and
Bald-Headed John and all of the lawyers and executives and promo people,
Mary gets screwed essentially by the Catholic Church and the roadies,
Lucille seems to screw Joe rather than the other way around...
Hmmmm...
I think that the act of sex, in most of Zappa's lyrics, is about power. So
none of these people are gay. He's just using the act of sex to dramatize
the power that one person holds over another and, in that sense, it very
frequently expresses itself as rape. Because that's what rape is. I would
really have a hard time arguing that he at all condones what happens. Yes,
it's supposed to be funny, but it's also definately sick and sad and
disgusting and he doesn't try to hide it. But we laugh because it's also
true; we see this stuff happen to people every day of our lives.
One of my favorite Heinlin quotes is from _Stranger in a Strange Land_. I
don't remember exactly how it goes, but Mike says something like, "I
figured out why people laugh. It's because it hurts."
A damning statement, but I can't help but find myself agreeing with him.
Oh wait, I was going to say something about queers in his music. All I
needed to hear was a line from the Evil Prince's aria in "The 'Torchum'
Never Stops" on _Thing-Fish_:
"Fairies and faggots and queers are CREATIVE"
I don't know about you, but hearing the Evil Prince [who seems to be the
Anti-Zappa if there ever was one :)] condemning queers by accusing them of
being creative seems to me about the biggest compliment you could ever
expect from Zappa. :)
[It's tempting to use Harry-As-A-Boy as an example of a gay character;
after all, he has a song written about him called "He's So Gay." But
take a look at his speach when he's introduced. It's WONDERFUL!! He's
100% interesting in power - he "lost all interest in females when they
started carrying those briefcases" because they are actually seeking their
own power. And then he says about them, "let's face it: that would be like
fucking a slightly more volumptuous version of somebody's father!" Ghad!
It's __so__ perfect. But the most damning line is at the start when he
says, "I plan on...turning gay as soon as possible in order to accelerate
my rise to the 'top of the heap.'" There is _no_ way that actual
homosexuality is being talked about here; how in the world is someone going
to 'rise to the top' by _really_ becoming GAY?!?]
And besides, could you imagine what he would do if he had any Totally Out
queer people in his band?
They'd have a new song written about them every single night. ;)
-------------------------------------------------------
Paul Bartek
>I think at first it is extremely easy to peg him as homophobic, and
>actually spent a lot of time wondering about that. At the very least, I
>think that homosexuality is probably _the_ subject that comes up the most
>in his lyrics; every where you turn some guy is getting screwed by some
>other guy. However, after thinking about it some more, I realized that it
>wasn't usually _homosexuality_ that was being talked about, but the act of
>not just gay sex but any kind of sex - Joe gets screwed by Sy and
>Bald-Headed John and all of the lawyers and executives and promo people,
>Mary gets screwed essentially by the Catholic Church and the roadies,
>Lucille seems to screw Joe rather than the other way around...
>
>Hmmmm...
>
>I think that the act of sex, in most of Zappa's lyrics, is about power. So
Sex=power is definitely one of Franks more prominent themes. Note that
the 'tower of power' is one of his favorite *devices*.
>none of these people are gay. He's just using the act of sex to dramatize
>the power that one person holds over another and, in that sense, it very
>frequently expresses itself as rape. Because that's what rape is. I would
>really have a hard time arguing that he at all condones what happens. Yes,
>it's supposed to be funny, but it's also definately sick and sad and
>disgusting and he doesn't try to hide it. But we laugh because it's also
>true; we see this stuff happen to people every day of our lives.
>
>One of my favorite Heinlin quotes is from _Stranger in a Strange Land_. I
>don't remember exactly how it goes, but Mike says something like, "I
>figured out why people laugh. It's because it hurts."
>
Mike could never laugh because he didn't grok why he should until one
day in the primate house at a zoo. A monkey hits another monkey, the hit
monkey hits a smaller in monkey. Mike laughs cuz he finally groks that
we laugh when the only other choice is crying. A powerful scene in the
book. Frank uses humour in a simialar fashion.
Paul Bartek \ "There are more love songs than anything else.
SUNY at Buffalo \ If songs could make you do something, *Insert*
Chemical Engineering \ We'd all love one another" *subliminal*
V075HGEV.ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu \ - Frank Zappa - *message here*
Dianne Hackborn
>Sex=power is definitely one of Franks more prominent themes. Note that
>the 'tower of power' is one of his favorite *devices*.
Oh geez, I never connected that! duh. :)
Uhhmmm... Just what _is_ the 'tower of power,' besides a music group??
-------------------------------------------------------
Dianne Kyra Hackborn "Jazz is not dead,
hac...@xanth.cs.orst.edu it just smells funny."
BIX: dhack / IRC: Dianne
Oregon State University -- Frank Zappa
Jon Bradley
Tower of Power.... !
Well, how shall I put this, an erect penis seems to have the right qualities
to fit the billing of a 'tower of power'.
'I can take about an hour on the tower of power,
As long as I gets a little golden shower..'
Bobby Brown
I think this does give us strong insight into the violent/macho aspect of
Frank's portrayal of sexuality, whether its het or gay Frank's view of it is
aggressive and often demeaning to either or both parties.
There's never a sense that both parties are actually enjoying their sex
*together* its either one person doing the shafting ['I have been in you']
or someone's getting fucked [I guess you could now begin to extrapolate to
FZ's attitude toward 'The Biz' in general.]
-This is becoming a very complex thread-
__________________
|___________ |
| / |
| / | 'When the going gets weird the
| / /\ | weird turn professional.'
|___/________/__\__| Hunter S. Thompson
| |
|__________________| <<<<<<<< Bald-Headed Jon >>>>>>>>
jh...@cix.compulink.co.uk
Compuserve 100113,2074
ps Dianne, How did the tests go ?
>>>MATRIX version 1.23a
Bj|rn Lisper
Bradley) writes:
>Tower of Power.... !
>Well, how shall I put this, an erect penis seems to have the right qualities
>to fit the billing of a 'tower of power'.
>'I can take about an hour on the tower of power,
> As long as I gets a little golden shower..'
> Bobby Brown
Hm, shouldn't it be "in the tower of power", or is my memory failing me
here? At about the time when Sheik Yerbouti came, I remember reading about
weird clubs in NYC where there were urinals built as two floors being
separated by a metal grid (am I using the correct English word here?) so a
person could stand on the top floor and pee through the grid, and somebody
could stand below and get a "golden shower". (Apparently there are people
who are turned on by this.) I've always thought that Zappa referred to such
a urinal by "tower of power".
It's just an assumption, of course....
It certainly fits the "sex - power" conjecture.
Bjorn Lisper
Charles Adams
>Sex=power is definitely one of Franks more prominent themes. Note that
>the 'tower of power' is one of his favorite *devices*.
Oh geez, I never connected that! duh. :)
Uhhmmm... Just what _is_ the 'tower of power,' besides a music group??
Uh, it's a phallic device of torturous proportions, is it not?
At least, that's what I hear, anyway. :-)
It's something that Bobby Brown can "spend about an hour" on --
'long as he gets "a little golden shower".
-------------------------------------------------------
Dianne Kyra Hackborn "Jazz is not dead,
hac...@xanth.cs.orst.edu it just smells funny."
BIX: dhack / IRC: Dianne
Oregon State University -- Frank Zappa
--
-----------------
Charles Adams "Cuz what they do in Washington
Texas Instruments They just look out for number one
Domain: cha...@spdc.ti.com And number one ain't you
Voice: (214) 995-5758 You ain't even number two." F Zappa
Paul Bartek
>>Sex=power is definitely one of Franks more prominent themes. Note that
>>the 'tower of power' is one of his favorite *devices*.
>
>Oh geez, I never connected that! duh. :)
>
>Uhhmmm... Just what _is_ the 'tower of power,' besides a music group??
>
Well, in YCDTOSA V6(?) someone tries to hand Frank a bong, to which Frank
sez: (something like) 'Is that a tower of power? Oh, it's a dope fiend
device, take it away!' :) Anyway, I'm pretty sure that what we're talkin'
about here is an elaborate, *large* mechanical butt-plug favored by the
disciples of applientology and other arcane acts.
Dianne Hackborn
>Well, in YCDTOSA V6(?) someone tries to hand Frank a bong, to which Frank
>sez: (something like) 'Is that a tower of power? Oh, it's a dope fiend
>device, take it away!' :) Anyway, I'm pretty sure that what we're talkin'
>about here is an elaborate, *large* mechanical butt-plug favored by the
>disciples of applientology and other arcane acts.
Okay, three different opinions so far. At least I don't feel like I'm
missing something really important. :)
Errr... What do you mean by "mechanical?" You mean there are ones which
do more than just ummm... plug?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dianne Kyra Hackborn "Information in not knowledge, Knowledge is not
hac...@xanth.cs.orst.edu wisdom, Wisdom is not truth, Truth is not beauty,
BIX: dhack / IRC: Dianne Beauty is not love, Love is not music,
Oregon State University Music is THE BEST." -- Frank Zappa
Dianne Hackborn
>Tower of Power.... !
>
>Well, how shall I put this, an erect penis seems to have the right qualities
>to fit the billing of a 'tower of power'.
>
>'I can take about an hour on the tower of power,
> As long as I gets a little golden shower..'
Yikes... I _never_ thought of that one. And it seems like I should have.
But I like what the second person said best, about the cages; it seems to
fit the second line that you quoted better, doesn't it?
>I think this does give us strong insight into the violent/macho aspect of
>Frank's portrayal of sexuality, whether its het or gay Frank's view of it is
>aggressive and often demeaning to either or both parties.
>
>There's never a sense that both parties are actually enjoying their sex
>*together* its either one person doing the shafting ['I have been in you']
>or someone's getting fucked [I guess you could now begin to extrapolate to
>FZ's attitude toward 'The Biz' in general.]
I don't know if I would say that that is his attitude, if you look at
most of his songs - especially on Joe's Garage and Thing-Fish - as not
being about sex but rather power. And, really, in our culture I think it
would be pretty hard to separate sex from power. Just about every mention
of it has some type of power attached to it - 'screwed', 'fucked', the
woman is traditionally on the bottom, but then you can lay side by side to
make things 'equal.' Or even that horrid 'oh. no. don't. stop.' to 'oh no,
don't stop.' joke.
Actually, the songs that I can think of off-hand that are seem to be just
about sex ["SEX" and "Stevie's Spanking" are the only ones that come
immediately to mind] don't seem to have any more overtones of power than
you would normally expect.
>-This is becoming a very complex thread-
Yeah. What fun! ;)
>ps Dianne, How did the tests go ?
Oh gee... Well, I answered all of the questions, it's over with, the
papers are done, and now it's the weekend.
What more can a person ask for? :)
matthew c. m. wright
his written statement to the Congress hearing on lyrics and such,
wherein he suggests that a possible development of the PMRC proposals
would be groups with gay members being censored. The context clearly
implies that he thinks this would be a bad thing.
Thing-Fish, in which the sex and power themes are most strongly
presented seems to me to show a very strong influence from William S
Burroughs. In 1984, when TF was released, Burroughs was seventy.
According to his biography (WSB's) FZ sent him a dozen long-stemmed
roses. A few years earlier they had been together to see the film "Best
Little Whorehouse in Texas", and FZ had discussed the possibility of an
off-Broadway musical based on Naked Lunch. Seems that never got off the
ground but I detect a definite tip of the hat to Burroughs and the
closing scene is particulaly redolent of Naked Lunch. The connection
goes back further, in 1976 a 'Nova Convention' was planned with Keith
Richards and Patti Smith as well as other writers, poets etc giving
readings. Keith Richards cancelled, having just been busted for Heroin
and fearing bad publicity from reading from the works of a well-known
addict. He was replaced by Zappa, who read the talking asshole passage,
from Naked Lunch. Now that, I would love to have heard. Anyone got a
tape?
Burroughs, for those not previously acquainted is strongly misogynist
(he wrote an essay entitled 'Women, a Biological Mistake?') and, despite
being homosexual, is frequently critical of large sections of the gay
community, in particular the sort of gay who falls in to the popular
stereotype. It seems to me that in borrowing his literary style for
Thing-Fish (and there's also traces of it elsewhere in his work) FZ has
borrowed some of his world-view as well. Maybe.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Wright | Nobody I know ____
mwr...@unix2.tcd.ie | Likes \vi/
| \/
| (Apologies to Dianne Hackborn)
Paul Bartek
>Okay, three different opinions so far. At least I don't feel like I'm
>missing something really important. :)
>
>Errr... What do you mean by "mechanical?" You mean there are ones which
>do more than just ummm... plug?
>
Hmm. . . let's just say that Sy Borg is probably an advanced ToP with a
mind of its own. Just leave the driving to us :)
Jon Bradley
Tower of Power etc.
I love definition threads. There used to be a TV show here way back called
'Call my Bluff' which was a 'guess whose talking a whole heap of crap' show.
eg. Obscure word given - Cat
3 different definitions offered.
1. Furry domestic mammal with four legs and tail.
2. Large container for old unwanted dishcloths
3. 14th Century mode of transport.
Other team has to guess the right one; I reckon that other def of Tower of
Power was the most creative, and so visual....!
So Tower of Power
1. A sexual aid, so called for the allusion of power normally associated with
male genitalia.
2. A Brass Section featured in early Elton John albums.
3. A Teenage New York bondage type gay disco device on which people are
pissed on by the would be lovers from ten feet in the air.
[Any more ideas....?]
SEX [oh that perennial topic] Yup this one is a really good humorous
event. My turn for naivety though, 'when the train goes round the bend,
check the shrubbery on the other end..' I've got a fairly graphic
imagination but I still can't get an angle on these lines.
Stevie's Spanking too is a gas, but I think that is more notable for the
guitar work. Is that a 10 minute version on Vol 4 ?
'I Have been in You' was one that made a huge impression in my teen years. At
that point I remember thinking how cool it was that someone was singing about
sex as it really was, sticky, smelly and potentially a lot of fun.
Finally in this missive 'Goblin Girl' as pure cheek [I can't spell chutzpah]
Another one of those knife edge songs that would probably be thought to be
about people wearing witches costumes for Halloween by Tipper Gore and Co.
I remember having a very long, stoned yarn about the topic of Frank's
"atttudes". We concluded that he was an arrogant, racist, sexist jerkoff who
didn't care who he insulted; then we made a coffee a reached for 'Jewish
Princess'...!
__________________
|___________ |
| / |
| / | 'Oh, pull my chain, you tiny potato-headed
| / /\ | whatchamacallit.'
|___/________/__\__|
| |
|__________________| <<<<<<<< Bald-Headed Jon >>>>>>>>
jh...@cix.compulink.co.uk
Compuserve 100113,2074
>>>MATRIX version 1.23a
Expressio Veri
>check the shrubbery on the other end..' I've got a fairly graphic
>imagination but I still can't get an angle on these lines.
>
69
Samir
Mark A. Natola
>From: mwr...@unix2.tcd.ie (matthew c. m. wright)
>Subject: Re: Zappa, rape and homophobia
>Date: Sat, 8 May 1993 17:00:22 GMT
The FZ "Talking Asshole" was released on an LP that was dedicated to WSB.
The name was something like "20 years of Dial a Prayer" or something like
that. I have also heard a longer version of that same piece on an audience
tape.
Mark
Dianne Hackborn
Huh? I thought it was anal sex.
Or do I just have too many gay friends? ;)
-------------------------------------------------------
Dianne Kyra Hackborn This text was made of 100%
hac...@xanth.cs.orst.edu recycled thoughts and
BIX: dhack / IRC: Dianne contains only ideas which
Oregon State University are internet-degradable.
Jesper Larsson Traff
>In article <mwright....@unix2.tcd.ie> mwr...@unix2.tcd.ie (matthew c. m. wright) writes:
>>Thing-Fish, in which the sex and power themes are most strongly
>>presented seems to me to show a very strong influence from William S
>>Burroughs. In 1984, when TF was released, Burroughs was seventy.
[many interesting points deleted]
>>Burroughs, for those not previously acquainted is strongly misogynist
>>(he wrote an essay entitled 'Women, a Biological Mistake?') and, despite
>>being homosexual, is frequently critical of large sections of the gay
>>community, in particular the sort of gay who falls in to the popular
>>stereotype. It seems to me that in borrowing his literary style for
>>Thing-Fish (and there's also traces of it elsewhere in his work) FZ has
>>borrowed some of his world-view as well. Maybe.
>The FZ "Talking Asshole" was released on an LP that was dedicated to WSB.
>The name was something like "20 years of Dial a Prayer" or something like
>that. I have also heard a longer version of that same piece on an audience
>tape.
>Mark
"you're a hook" from Giorno Poetry Systems in New York. I can dig out the
address if anybody are interested. Yes, it's good. Yes, it seems that FZ is
more into Burroughs than one should think
Jesper Larsson Traff
Ken Walter
>goes back further, in 1976 a 'Nova Convention' was planned with Keith
>Richards and Patti Smith as well as other writers, poets etc giving
>readings. Keith Richards cancelled, having just been busted for Heroin
>and fearing bad publicity from reading from the works of a well-known
>addict. He was replaced by Zappa, who read the talking asshole passage,
>from Naked Lunch. Now that, I would love to have heard. Anyone got a
>tape?
No, but I read in a recent issue of ICE that it's been reissued on CD!
Rob Warenda
RS>BTW, does anyone know the full quote by FZ which starts out:
>"Truth is not beauty" and ends "Music is best"? I saw it on the back of a
>tour shirt once, thought it was The Shit, but did not have time to copy
>it down. Please, if you know the whole thing, could you email or post?
It's from some song on Joe's Garage. It's been so long since I've
listened to that album, I don't remember exactly where it is. Oh, here
it is. It's from the song "Packard Goose". It's one of my favorite
Zappa tunes. I really feel stupid now. Anyway, on with the lyrics:
Information is not knowledge
Knowledge is not wisdom
Wisdom is not truth
Truth is not beauty
Beauty is not love
Love is not music
Music is the BEST!
Wisdom is the domain of the Wiz
Which is extinct
Beauty is a French Phonetic Corruption
Of a short cloth neck ornament
Currently in resurgence
Rob
* 1st 1.10b #686 * Could I interest you in a pair of Zircon Encrusted Tweezers?
Jon Bradley
> 69 <
Thank you, I've been puzzling over that one for almost ten years....!
____________________________________________________________
| | |
| <<<<<<<< Bald-Headed Jon >>>>>>>> | 'The Crux of the |
| jh...@cix.compulink.co.uk | biscuit is the |
| Compuserve 100113,2074 | Apostrophe.' FZ |
|______________________________________|_____________________|
>>>MATRIX version 1.23a
Jon Bradley
But can you *please* explain the metaphor...?
Trains in tunnels, OK. Trains going around bends....?
I like the 69 explanation but still can't wrap my brain around the imagery.
Maybe I should call up some of my old gay friends...:-)
Jon Bradley
jh...@cix.compulink.co.uk [subdued- today I trashed the hard disk :-(( ]
>>>MATRIX version 1.23a
Glenn Wiltse
:)Subject: Re: Sexism!
:)
:)
:)RS>BTW, does anyone know the full quote by FZ which starts out:
:) >"Truth is not beauty" and ends "Music is best"? I saw it on the back of a
:) >tour shirt once, thought it was The Shit, but did not have time to copy
:) >it down. Please, if you know the whole thing, could you email or post?
:)
:) It's from some song on Joe's Garage. It's been so long since I've
:)listened to that album, I don't remember exactly where it is. Oh, here
:)it is. It's from the song "Packard Goose". It's one of my favorite
:)Zappa tunes. I really feel stupid now. Anyway, on with the lyrics:
Thats I feel the same way, I keep meaning to go home and figure out
exactly where that part is. I do know that is is Mary who is saying those
lines, and I beleive it comes after the the Wet Tshirt contest. It seems
that these lines are somewhere near the end of the story.
I don't know why but that point in Joe's Garage always makes me sad.
R Clement
In article <1slu5p...@flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU> hac...@xanth.CS.ORST.EDU (Dianne Hackborn) writes:
>In article <1993May10.1...@udel.edu> che...@huey.udel.edu (Expressio Veri) writes:
>>In article <memo....@cix.compulink.co.uk> jh...@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:
>>>
>>>My turn for naivety though, 'when the train goes round the bend,
>>>check the shrubbery on the other end..' I've got a fairly graphic
>>>imagination but I still can't get an angle on these lines.
>>>
>>
>>69
>
>Huh? I thought it was anal sex.
Could 'Check the shrubbery on the other end' then be a reference to check
the genital area for signs of VD before embarking on going around the bend?
Cheers,
Ross-c
Ken Walter
Last night I looked up the reference. According to ICE, the East Side
Digital label in conjunction with poet John Giorno is issuing a CD called
"Cash Cow" that is a selection of poetry and music from Giorno Poetry
Systems LP's from 1965 to the present. Artists include Husker Du, Debbie
Harry, Patti Smith, New Order, Tom Waits, and FRANK ZAPPA. I looked
for this CD in Tower today and couldn't find it. Has anyone actually
seen it?
Dianne Hackborn
>[Obscenity Alert, tho' probably not necessary in alt.fan.FZ]
I wouldn't think so... :)
>In article <1slu5p...@flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU> hac...@xanth.CS.ORST.EDU (Dianne Hackborn) writes:
>>Huh? I thought it was anal sex.
>
>Could 'Check the shrubbery on the other end' then be a reference to check
>the genital area for signs of VD before embarking on going around the bend?
Hmmmm... I don't know about that. I just thought it meant ummmm... well,
there are two 'interesting' places with some amount of errrr... that
particular kind of hair. Ya' know? :)
-------------------------------------------------------
Dianne Kyra Hackborn "Don't we all deserve
hac...@xanth.cs.orst.edu more than a kinder and
BIX: dhack / IRC: Dianne gentler fuck?"
Oregon State University -- Two Nice Girls