FZ and Allan Holdsworth
Doug Boucher
Michael Fell <mfel...@yahoo.com> wrote
> Can someone tell me if this is true? Did FZ want to recruit Allan
> Holdsworth as his main stunt Guitarist back in the eighties? That
> would have been really cool to have Holdsworth in an awsome Zappa
> band!
Would have been quite amazing, though I kinda doubt if it's true. I do know
that Frank loved Allan's playing. I always thought it was great that
whenever Frank would be asked about his favorite players he wouldn't
hesitate to sing Allan's praises.
AH does have a connection to FZ. He has used Vinnie and Chad
> on some of his excellent IOU albums. Oh , I forgot to mention just
> in case some of you dont know AH appears on two Jean luc Ponty Albums.
> He smokes Darryl Stermer on Enigmatic oceans and he does a tune or two
> on Individual Choice.
He's brilliant. Anything Allan plays on is worth a listen in my book,
Doug
Bill
>
> Can someone tell me if this is true? Did FZ want to recruit Allan
> Holdsworth as his main stunt Guitarist back in the eighties? That
> would have been really cool to have Holdsworth in an awsome Zappa
> on some of his excellent IOU albums.
Not to mention that Eddie Jobson went directly from FZ's band to join
Holdsworth on the first "U.K." album.
Dan Watkins
> He smokes Darryl Stermer on Enigmatic oceans and he does a tune or two
> on Individual Choice. Sorry I am getting carried away here talking
> about Allan Holdsworth on FZs group. It wont happen again.
I don't know. I have Enigmatic Ocean, and Allan just doesn't do that much
for me. I like Stermer's work better.
-Dan
--
"There is no Hell... only France!" -FZ
Dan's Frank Zappa Page
http://members.xoom.com/_XOOM/The_Mothers/index.html
AOL Screen Name: madcow1515
ICQ Number: 30083560
Michael Fell
Holdsworth as his main stunt Guitarist back in the eighties? That
would have been really cool to have Holdsworth in an awsome Zappa
band! AH does have a connection to FZ. He has used Vinnie and Chad
in case some of you dont know AH appears on two Jean luc Ponty Albums.
on Individual Choice. Sorry I am getting carried away here talking
about Allan Holdsworth on FZs group. It wont happen again.
Mike
Peter de B. Harrington
that was it) interviewed Frank
in his PJ's right around after he won the Grammy from Jazz from Hell. Frank
was asked who is favorite musicans
were, and he said Alan Holdsorth. Then the weather guy (can't remember his
name) gleefully says "for us squares out
there can you tell us which band does he play in, Yes or Led Zeppelin?" and
Frank says straight-faced the Alan Holdsworth Band.
Definitely made my morning. Also, Jane Pauley was visibly nervous the whole
time that the "rude guy" might say something rude.
Pete
Michael Fell <mfel...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7nb5ck$j...@newsops.execpc.com...
> On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:04:21 -0400, "Doug Boucher"
> <eraser...@busprod.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Michael Fell <mfel...@yahoo.com> wrote
> >
> >> Can someone tell me if this is true? Did FZ want to recruit Allan
> >> Holdsworth as his main stunt Guitarist back in the eighties? That
> >> would have been really cool to have Holdsworth in an awsome Zappa
> >> band!
> >
> >Would have been quite amazing, though I kinda doubt if it's true. I do
know
> >that Frank loved Allan's playing. I always thought it was great that
> >whenever Frank would be asked about his favorite players he wouldn't
> >hesitate to sing Allan's praises.
>
>
> > AH does have a connection to FZ. He has used Vinnie and Chad
> >> on some of his excellent IOU albums. Oh , I forgot to mention just
> >> in case some of you dont know AH appears on two Jean luc Ponty Albums.
> >> He smokes Darryl Stermer on Enigmatic oceans and he does a tune or two
> >> on Individual Choice.
> >
> >He's brilliant. Anything Allan plays on is worth a listen in my book,
>
> I agree with you on that!
> Did you ever hear the 1st Tempest album with Allan? They were a
> Zeppelin type band. AH was way ahead of his time on that. His legato
> was great back then! I think that was late 72' when that was
> recorded. I think Allan is so misunderstood as a guitarist. I know
> alot of guitarists that dont care for his playing. I wish AH had a
> news group then I would not be in here talking about him however, I
> think this is a good place to bring up AH. If you can appreciate and
> or understand Zappas music you can get a grasp on Holdsworths playing.
>
>
> Mike
> >
> >Doug
> >
> >
> >
>
Patrick Neve
> Well one of my favorite moments on TV was when Good Morning America (I think
> that was it) interviewed Frank
> in his PJ's right around after he won the Grammy from Jazz from Hell. Frank
> was asked who is favorite musicans
> were, and he said Alan Holdsorth. Then the weather guy (can't remember his
> name) gleefully says "for us squares out
> there can you tell us which band does he play in, Yes or Led Zeppelin?" and
> Frank says straight-faced the Alan Holdsworth Band.
>
> Definitely made my morning. Also, Jane Pauley was visibly nervous the whole
> time that the "rude guy" might say something rude.
I'm not saying this is wrong, only that I don't have a listing for Good
Morning America that would correspond with this. The reason I'm bringing
it up is I'd like to add this to the video FAQ list but I'd like to know
which show it was. Anyone else seen this? Sounds like a funny spot.
Thanks,
-patrick
Doug Boucher
Michael Fell <mfel...@yahoo.com> wrote
> >He's brilliant. Anything Allan plays on is worth a listen in my book,
>
> I agree with you on that!
I knew you guys were smart. :)
> Did you ever hear the 1st Tempest album with Allan? They were a
> Zeppelin type band. AH was way ahead of his time on that. His legato
> was great back then! I think that was late 72' when that was
> recorded.
That's a weird album, but I like it. He hadn't quite developed yet, but it
sure is some interesting stuff. I also really like the Tony Williams albums
he's on.
> I think Allan is so misunderstood as a guitarist. I know
> alot of guitarists that dont care for his playing.
I've played him for people and they go "what the fuck is THAT?" but they do
that when I play Frank, so screw 'em. :)
I wish AH had a
> news group then I would not be in here talking about him however, I
> think this is a good place to bring up AH. If you can appreciate and
> or understand Zappas music you can get a grasp on Holdsworths playing.
It might be a totally different ballgame, but it's often no less
interesting. My faves include the IOU album, Metal Fatigue, Road Games,
Atavachron, and Sand. Some others are well worth it too, but those are the
ones to have as far as I'm concerned.
Doug
NP The 88 MP3s from Jeff's site. This shit is SOOO funny.
----------------------------------------------------------------
"If you wind up with a boring, miserable life
because you listened to your mother, your Dad,
your priest, to some guy on television, to any of
the people telling you how to do your shit, then
YOU DESERVE IT." - Frank Zappa
Live! Nude! Mike Keneally Fans!
www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Birdland/2505
Michael Fell
<eraser...@busprod.com> wrote:
>
>Michael Fell <mfel...@yahoo.com> wrote
>
>> Can someone tell me if this is true? Did FZ want to recruit Allan
>> Holdsworth as his main stunt Guitarist back in the eighties? That
>> would have been really cool to have Holdsworth in an awsome Zappa
>> band!
>
>Would have been quite amazing, though I kinda doubt if it's true. I do know
>that Frank loved Allan's playing. I always thought it was great that
>whenever Frank would be asked about his favorite players he wouldn't
>hesitate to sing Allan's praises.
> AH does have a connection to FZ. He has used Vinnie and Chad
>> on some of his excellent IOU albums. Oh , I forgot to mention just
>> in case some of you dont know AH appears on two Jean luc Ponty Albums.
>> He smokes Darryl Stermer on Enigmatic oceans and he does a tune or two
>> on Individual Choice.
>
>He's brilliant. Anything Allan plays on is worth a listen in my book,
I agree with you on that!
Did you ever hear the 1st Tempest album with Allan? They were a
Zeppelin type band. AH was way ahead of his time on that. His legato
was great back then! I think that was late 72' when that was
recorded. I think Allan is so misunderstood as a guitarist. I know
alot of guitarists that dont care for his playing. I wish AH had a
news group then I would not be in here talking about him however, I
think this is a good place to bring up AH. If you can appreciate and
or understand Zappas music you can get a grasp on Holdsworths playing.
Mike
>
>Doug
>
>
>
Michael Fell
wrote:
>Michael Fell wrote:
>>
>> Can someone tell me if this is true? Did FZ want to recruit Allan
>> Holdsworth as his main stunt Guitarist back in the eighties? That
>> would have been really cool to have Holdsworth in an awsome Zappa
>> band! AH does have a connection to FZ. He has used Vinnie and Chad
>> on some of his excellent IOU albums.
>
>Not to mention that Eddie Jobson went directly from FZ's band to join
>Holdsworth on the first "U.K." album.
How can I forget that masterpiece! Can you here the FZ influence on
that? Do you think Eddie is emulating AH on the UK? Sometimes you
cant tell them apart! I remember buying that back in 77' I think. I
bought the album because Bruford was on it and I had trouble picking
up where the guitar was . At that time I could not comprehend Allans
playing at all. I hope this rambling makes sense. I have been out in
the sun all day with a 112 degree heat index so, I am toasted
Mike
ZappaLVR
Patrick Neve <sp...@darkwing.uoregon.edu> writes:
>
>I'm not saying this is wrong, only that I don't have a listing for Good
>Morning America that would correspond with this. The reason I'm bringing
>it up is I'd like to add this to the video FAQ list but I'd like to know
>which show it was. Anyone else seen this? Sounds like a funny spot.
>
>Thanks,
>-patrick
>
If it was Jane Pauley, it must have been NBC's Today Show, not ABC's Good
Morning America.
Zapp...@aol.com aka Chris Maxfield
http://members.aol.com/zappalvr/ZAPPA.html
Kill Ugly Sig Files! To e-mail, remove "honza" from my address!
It Never Entered My Mind
<dan_w...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Michael Fell wrote:
>
>> He smokes Darryl Stermer on Enigmatic oceans and he does a tune or two
>> on Individual Choice. Sorry I am getting carried away here talking
>> about Allan Holdsworth on FZs group. It wont happen again.
>
>I don't know. I have Enigmatic Ocean, and Allan just doesn't do that much
>for me. I like Stermer's work better.
Holdsworth is overrated.
computeruser
ZappaLVR wrote in message <19990724023350...@ngol07.aol.com>...
>In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.990723...@darkwing.uoregon.edu>,
>Patrick Neve <sp...@darkwing.uoregon.edu> writes:
>
>>
>>I'm not saying this is wrong, only that I don't have a listing for Good
>>Morning America that would correspond with this. The reason I'm bringing
>>it up is I'd like to add this to the video FAQ list but I'd like to know
>>which show it was. Anyone else seen this? Sounds like a funny spot.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>-patrick
>>
He does the CBS This Morning show with his PJ's although one might call it a
bath robe or a house coat.
I think the Holdworth remark was made to Harry Smith.
computeruser
Dan B.
recommended to Holdsworth by Zappa. Zappa said: Holdsworth asked him if
he could recommend any drummers, and FZ said: "There's this guy that
I've been using...". In that UK 'Guitar' mag interview I mentioned
before, FZ listed Jeff Beck and Holdsworth as his favorite 'current'
guitarists (he also said some not quite praiseworthy comments on John
McLaughlin's "machine gun, rapid-style type" playing, but that's
irrelevant to this discussion).
Allan Holdsworth's first solo album 'Velvet Darkness' (1976) is
fantastic, but of course it's OOP. The rhythm section on this of Narada
Michael Walden and St. Alphonso Johnson (on bass & Stick!) is worthy of
the rhythm sections of Zappa's glorious mid-seventies period. Velvet
Darkness features the only time Allan Holdsworth could ever have been
considered getting 'funky'. Of course, Holdsworth hates this album
because he says it is just under-rehearsed, rough takes (which
translates to me into the incredible 'loose-type' jams which it is); but
the reason I think he doesn't care for it is he is constantly smoked by
the tandem of Walden/Johnson, especially Walden who does some of the
most intense and powerful drumming ever laid down. Johnson also lets fly
with some fierce Stick solos, especially on the alternate take (on the
CD) of "Good Clean Filth". The engineering by Rudy Van Gelder is also
top-notch: captured a great drum sound and a very good overall "hot"
mix. For those who like Zappa's 70's instrumental stuff (and who
doesn't?), if you see this in a used CD store, pick it up.
--
"I don’t want to spend my life explaining myself. Either you get it or
you don’t." -- Frank Zappa
Peter de B. Harrington
Today Show, now what was the name of that portly weather man. The year would
be 1988-1989, and it also was around the release of the TRFZB.
I'm pretty sure Drew has it cataloged in his list, but I don't have his
e-mail handy.
Pete
ZappaLVR <zapp...@aol.comhonza> wrote in message
news:19990724023350...@ngol07.aol.com...
> In article
<Pine.GSO.3.96.990723...@darkwing.uoregon.edu>,
> Patrick Neve <sp...@darkwing.uoregon.edu> writes:
>
> >
> >I'm not saying this is wrong, only that I don't have a listing for Good
> >Morning America that would correspond with this. The reason I'm bringing
> >it up is I'd like to add this to the video FAQ list but I'd like to know
> >which show it was. Anyone else seen this? Sounds like a funny spot.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >-patrick
> >
>
ZappaLVR
<Peter.Ha...@Ohio.edu> writes:
>
>I wasn't sure which one when I was typing, but you are correct it was the
>Today Show, now what was the name of that portly weather man. The year would
>be 1988-1989, and it also was around the release of the TRFZB.
>
>I'm pretty sure Drew has it cataloged in his list, but I don't have his
>e-mail handy.
>
Probably Willard Scott (old white guy), but his replacement, Al Roker (younger
black guy), is also pretty portly. Roker has been around since the
mid-Eighties as a substitute for Willard, so it could have been either one, I
guess.
Michael Fell
>Chad Wackerman started playing with Allan Holdsworth after he was
>recommended to Holdsworth by Zappa. Zappa said: Holdsworth asked him if
>he could recommend any drummers, and FZ said: "There's this guy that
>I've been using...". In that UK 'Guitar' mag interview I mentioned
>before, FZ listed Jeff Beck and Holdsworth as his favorite 'current'
>guitarists (he also said some not quite praiseworthy comments on John
>McLaughlin's "machine gun, rapid-style type" playing, but that's
>irrelevant to this discussion).
>
>Allan Holdsworth's first solo album 'Velvet Darkness' (1976) is
>fantastic, but of course it's OOP.
>Michael Walden and St. Alphonso Johnson (on bass & Stick!) is worthy of
>the rhythm sections of Zappa's glorious mid-seventies period. Velvet
>Darkness features the only time Allan Holdsworth could ever have been
>considered getting 'funky'. Of course, Holdsworth hates this album
>because he says it is just under-rehearsed, rough takes (which
>translates to me into the incredible 'loose-type' jams which it is); but
>the reason I think he doesn't care for it is he is constantly smoked by
>the tandem of Walden/Johnson, especially Walden who does some of the
>most intense and powerful drumming ever laid down.
I am a drummer myself and Narada is one of my favorites but , he does
not smoke AH. Nobody smokes AH! Have you heard the MVP disk with
Frank Gambale and Allan? As great as Gambale is, he still gets
burned throughout this CD by Holdsworth IMHO. I have to say Tony
Williams gave him a run for his money.
Mike
Peter de B. Harrington
drive me crazy.
Thanks,
Pete
ZappaLVR <zapp...@aol.comhonza> wrote in message
news:19990724135624...@ngol01.aol.com...
computeruser
on NBC.
I can understand the missunderstanding as......
All weather men are fat
computeruser
ZappaLVR wrote in message <19990724135624...@ngol01.aol.com>...
Dan B.
where Holdsworth just drops out because Walden & Johnson go off into an
improvised tangent where you can practically hear Holdsworth saying to
himself: "what the hell do I play over that?" It really is a pretty
amazing little bass (stick)/drums ending improv. to finish out the tune
after Holdsworth stops playing.
Great jazz drummer though Tony Williams was, it should be obvious that
his 'fusion' stuff was inferior to his jazz stuff: he just wasn't really
good at a straight-eighth, and odd-timed, flexible fusion groove feel.
Narada's (for example) grooves were much more complex & flowing in a
streamlined fashion. (Tony Williams sure did a good wild bash on the 1st
Lifetime album though.) Likewise, I would have found Williams' style to
not be complementary within Zappa's context, but since it didn't happen
it doesn't matter. (PS, I have a little bit of experience with drums &
percussion meself.)
--
Adrian Clark
> I agree with you on that!
> Did you ever hear the 1st Tempest album with Allan? They were a
> Zeppelin type band. AH was way ahead of his time on that. His legato
> was great back then! I think that was late 72' when that was
> recorded.
It's a great album. And if you like Holdsworth-style playing, check out
the second Tempest album, with Ollie Halsall on guitar. It's like the
first, possibly a bit more "fusion-ish".
Adrian
--
_________________________________________________________
No.
_________________________________________________________
Michael
>Have you heard Velvet Darkness? There's a part at the end of "Wish"
>where Holdsworth just drops out because Walden & Johnson go off into an
>improvised tangent where you can practically hear Holdsworth saying to
>himself: "what the hell do I play over that?"
I am listening to Velvet Darness at this moment. I take it you are
referring to the end of "Wish" where Narada and Al do their thing?
The song ends with bass and drums because it was arranged that way.
There is no need for guitar there. I have heard Allan solo over some
very complex pieces of music. I have seen him live several times.
C'mon ,There is no way Allan Holdsworth would think" what do I play
over that"?
>It really is a pretty
>amazing little bass (stick)/drums ending improv. to finish out the tune
>after Holdsworth stops playing.
>Great jazz drummer though Tony Williams was, it should be obvious that
>his 'fusion' stuff was inferior to his jazz stuff:
Tony's fusion style of drumming had an influence on Terry Bozzio. If
you listen to alot of Terry's fills and Hi Hat work with UK, The
Brecker Bros and some of his stuff with FZ you can hear it.
>he just wasn't really
>good at a straight-eighth, and odd-timed, flexible fusion groove feel.
Are you talking about the same Tony Williams I am? Tony's approach was
different and his style was unique from most fusion drummers of the
day. Anything Tony played on the drums was pretty awesome!
>Narada's (for example) grooves were much more complex & flowing in a
I always preferred Narada in Mahavishna over Billy and he does a
excellent job on Wired. I saw Jeff Beck recently and they played some
of Wired. I was very disappointed with how Becks current drummer
approached those Wired tunes. He was no where close to the caliber of
a Narada Michael Walden.
>(Tony Williams sure did a good wild bash on the 1st
>Lifetime album though.)
I wish I could bash like that!
>Likewise, I would have found Williams' style to
>not be complementary within Zappa's context,
I agree
Also, where is Alphonso using a stick on velvet darkness?
Mike
Michael Fell
Clark) wrote:
>Michael Fell <mfel...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree with you on that!
>> Did you ever hear the 1st Tempest album with Allan? They were a
>> Zeppelin type band. AH was way ahead of his time on that. His legato
>> was great back then! I think that was late 72' when that was
>> recorded.
>
>It's a great album. And if you like Holdsworth-style playing, check out
>the second Tempest album, with Ollie Halsall on guitar. It's like the
>first, possibly a bit more "fusion-ish".
>
Where can you get that? Is it called "Living in Fear"?
I think it is out of print. I have the first one on CD and I have the
original vinyl.
Mike
Dan B.
times: fills that don't end cleanly or go on too far off of the tune's
time sig, etc. (And don't say that's on purpose becuase it wasn't.) Do
you know fer sure that "Wish" was supposed to end like that? I doubt it:
it sounds totally improvised in the context of the peformance taking
place at that moment to me. Narada & Alphonso just kept going it sounds
like after Holdworth has stopped--and it was so good they had to keep it
as the master take. Who knows, that might have been a first take.
There's no alternate take for that song like there is for 5 of the other
tracks on that disc.
The Stick is very prominent on 'Velvet Darkness'. Comparably, Johnson's
two solo albums, also from '76 have the Stick all over them-- there's
just a track by track instrument breakdown so it's clearer when it's not
just fuzzed bass, for instance.
Yeah, it's apparent that Bozzio was greatly influenced by Williams. My
own personal feelings on this (just my subjective viewpoint) is that I
wish Terry had been more influenced by Chester, Narada, or somebody like
Mike Clark (somebody with a little more stramlined playing), rather than
Tony Williams, but that's just my feelings.
You're just asking for trouble when you make a blanket statement like
"(so and so musician) anytime they played anything it was awesome." Even
Zappa had a few turkeys, and I'm sure he had been displeased with his
playing at certain times when others probably weren't.
Yeah, you're right though, "Led Boots" smokes! The drumming on that
track alone is better than anything Cobham ever did.
You say you want to play like Tony Williams: well, just get a really big
fucking pair of hi-hats and play them in that annoying semi-open "trash
can cover" type hissy sound, then do a lot of single stroke rolls around
the drums (and that's it in terms of rolls and fills--something Bozzio
seems to have picked up). Tony Williams did have a stomping bass drum
foot too: he just didn't have the precision that I personally find so
important in terms of music and musical execution.
Adrian Clark
> Allan Holdsworth's first solo album 'Velvet Darkness' (1976) is
> fantastic, but of course it's OOP.
Columbia re-released it as part of their "Contemporary Jazz Masters"
series (the series with all the RTF and Al di Meola stuff) with loads of
alternate takes etc. So it definitely exists on CD... somewhere. I got
mine in a used CD shop (the famous "Beanos" as mentioned in another
thread)
Adrian
--
_________________________________________________________
Boo!
_________________________________________________________
Adrian Clark
> >It's a great album. And if you like Holdsworth-style playing, check out
> >the second Tempest album, with Ollie Halsall on guitar. It's like the
> >first, possibly a bit more "fusion-ish".
> >
>
> Where can you get that? Is it called "Living in Fear"?
That's the one! I've got a CD containing both albums, which seems to
have been released in 1990, by Sequel Records ("a division of Knight
Records Ltd, a Castle Communications plc Group company...") Castle
Communications seem to be responsible for most of the CD re-releases and
remasters in Britain. I suppose they might have a website with with
their (enormous) catalogue somewhere.
Adrian
--
_________________________________________________________
eek
_________________________________________________________
Dan B.
I'm sorry if it sounds like I came down so hard on Tony Williams. He was
really great at his own bag. I just don't like his fusion stuff.
Alphonso Johnson has a solo album with Narada on it called
'Moonshadows', the instrumental tracks are killer, but the CD version is
only available as a very expensive Japanese import--it's not worth the
price. I have an old scratchy record of it. I gotta admit Tony Williams
had power & dedication: I saw his Live in NYC video, and you can't say
he ever just went through the motions: he hit the drums forcefully &
played for keeps! (it's just his sub-divided groove playing I have
alittle trouble with.)
Michael Fell wrote:
>
> On Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:36:33 -0400, "Dan B." <dan...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >Tony Williams was great, but you have to admit he was pretty 'sloppy' at
> >times: fills that don't end cleanly or go on too far off of the tune's
> >time sig, etc. (And don't say that's on purpose becuase it wasn't.
>
> I will not criticize Tony Williams. I am sorry I cant
>
> >) Do
> >you know fer sure that "Wish" was supposed to end like that? I doubt it
>
> There are few other tunes that Holdsworth plays where the song ends
> with bass and drums or somtimes just drums. If you have the 1st IOU
> album just listen to the end of "Out from under" as an example.
>
> >it sounds totally improvised in the context of the peformance taking
> >place at that moment to me.
>
> It could be improvised. Allan could have said "we are going to end
> this with just you two playing so, do what ever you want"
>
> >Narada & Alphonso just kept going it sounds
> >like after Holdworth has stopped--and it was so good they had to keep it
> >as the master take. Who knows, that might have been a first take.
> >There's no alternate take for that song like there is for 5 of the other
> >tracks on that disc.
> >The Stick is very prominent on 'Velvet Darkness'. Comparably, Johnson's
> >two solo albums, also from '76 have the Stick all over them-- there's
> >just a track by track instrument breakdown so it's clearer when it's not
> >just fuzzed bass, for instance.
> >Yeah, it's apparent that Bozzio was greatly influenced by Williams. My
> >own personal feelings on this (just my subjective viewpoint) is that I
> >wish Terry had been more influenced by Chester, Narada, or somebody like
> >Mike Clark (somebody with a little more stramlined playing), rather than
> >Tony Williams, but that's just my feelings.
>
> A friend of mine has a live bootleg tape of Tony playing at the Jazz
> showcase in Chicago. His playing is unbelieveable on that!
>
> >You're just asking for trouble when you make a blanket statement like
> >"(so and so musician) anytime they played anything it was awesome.
>
> Your right about that
>
> >" Even
> >Zappa had a few turkeys, and I'm sure he had been displeased with his
> >playing at certain times when others probably weren't.
>
> IMHO Most great musicians are displeased with their playing. That is
> how they became great musicians! Here is a story I heard from another
> friend of mine. I got alot of friends what can I say! He saw The Tony
> Williams lifetime with AH in Chicago and Tony failed to execute a fill
> properly. So, Tony got irratated and out of the blue he decided to
> spend the next ten minutes playing that fill over and over again. The
> whole band just sat there till he was done.
>
> >Yeah, you're right though, "Led Boots" smokes! The drumming on that
> >track alone is better than anything Cobham ever did.
>
> I always thought Cobham overplayed. Its to bad Narada did not play on
> the "Blow by Blow Album. Do you know of any other stuff that Narada is
> on other then Beck, Mahavishna and AH ect? He is one of the greatest
> there is no doubt about that! I dont have enough Narada!
>
> >You say you want to play like Tony Williams: well, just get a really big
> >fucking pair of hi-hats and play them in that annoying semi-open "trash
> >can cover" type hissy sound, then do a lot of single stroke rolls around
> >the drums
>
> I have to say his drums were too high in the mix on those Lifetime
> albums. His Hi Hats can be over powering . I think if they could have
> pulled the hi hat mic back a few inches or feet then they would sound
> a bit more pleasing. I do like his drum sound on those though
>
> >(and that's it in terms of rolls and fills--something Bozzio
> >seems to have picked up). Tony Williams did have a stomping bass drum
> >foot too: he just didn't have the precision that I personally find so
> >important in terms of music and musical execution.
>
> Have you heard "Four and More" by Mile Davis? It is a live album from
> 64' It has an eighteen year old Tony Williams on it. He plays with a
> great deal of finesse and dynamics on that one.
>
> Mike
Kristian Kier
(Michael Fell) wrote:
>On Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:12:38 +0000, acl...@zappa.u-net.com (Adrian
>Clark) wrote:
>
>>Michael Fell <mfel...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with you on that!
>>> Did you ever hear the 1st Tempest album with Allan? They were a
>>> Zeppelin type band. AH was way ahead of his time on that. His legato
>>> was great back then! I think that was late 72' when that was
>>> recorded.
>>
>>It's a great album. And if you like Holdsworth-style playing, check out
>>the second Tempest album, with Ollie Halsall on guitar. It's like the
>>first, possibly a bit more "fusion-ish".
>>
>
>Where can you get that? Is it called "Living in Fear"?
Yep, that愀 the one.
-Kristian
Michael Fell
>Tony Williams was great, but you have to admit he was pretty 'sloppy' at
>times: fills that don't end cleanly or go on too far off of the tune's
>time sig, etc. (And don't say that's on purpose becuase it wasn't.
I will not criticize Tony Williams. I am sorry I cant
>) Do
>you know fer sure that "Wish" was supposed to end like that? I doubt it
There are few other tunes that Holdsworth plays where the song ends
with bass and drums or somtimes just drums. If you have the 1st IOU
album just listen to the end of "Out from under" as an example.
>it sounds totally improvised in the context of the peformance taking
>place at that moment to me.
It could be improvised. Allan could have said "we are going to end
this with just you two playing so, do what ever you want"
>Narada & Alphonso just kept going it sounds
>like after Holdworth has stopped--and it was so good they had to keep it
>as the master take. Who knows, that might have been a first take.
>There's no alternate take for that song like there is for 5 of the other
>tracks on that disc.
>The Stick is very prominent on 'Velvet Darkness'. Comparably, Johnson's
>two solo albums, also from '76 have the Stick all over them-- there's
>just a track by track instrument breakdown so it's clearer when it's not
>just fuzzed bass, for instance.
>Yeah, it's apparent that Bozzio was greatly influenced by Williams. My
>own personal feelings on this (just my subjective viewpoint) is that I
>wish Terry had been more influenced by Chester, Narada, or somebody like
>Mike Clark (somebody with a little more stramlined playing), rather than
>Tony Williams, but that's just my feelings.
A friend of mine has a live bootleg tape of Tony playing at the Jazz
showcase in Chicago. His playing is unbelieveable on that!
>You're just asking for trouble when you make a blanket statement like
>"(so and so musician) anytime they played anything it was awesome.
Your right about that
>" Even
>Zappa had a few turkeys, and I'm sure he had been displeased with his
>playing at certain times when others probably weren't.
IMHO Most great musicians are displeased with their playing. That is
how they became great musicians! Here is a story I heard from another
friend of mine. I got alot of friends what can I say! He saw The Tony
Williams lifetime with AH in Chicago and Tony failed to execute a fill
properly. So, Tony got irratated and out of the blue he decided to
spend the next ten minutes playing that fill over and over again. The
whole band just sat there till he was done.
>Yeah, you're right though, "Led Boots" smokes! The drumming on that
>track alone is better than anything Cobham ever did.
I always thought Cobham overplayed. Its to bad Narada did not play on
the "Blow by Blow Album. Do you know of any other stuff that Narada is
on other then Beck, Mahavishna and AH ect? He is one of the greatest
there is no doubt about that! I dont have enough Narada!
>You say you want to play like Tony Williams: well, just get a really big
>fucking pair of hi-hats and play them in that annoying semi-open "trash
>can cover" type hissy sound, then do a lot of single stroke rolls around
>the drums
I have to say his drums were too high in the mix on those Lifetime
albums. His Hi Hats can be over powering . I think if they could have
pulled the hi hat mic back a few inches or feet then they would sound
a bit more pleasing. I do like his drum sound on those though
>(and that's it in terms of rolls and fills--something Bozzio
>seems to have picked up). Tony Williams did have a stomping bass drum
>foot too: he just didn't have the precision that I personally find so
>important in terms of music and musical execution.
Have you heard "Four and More" by Mile Davis? It is a live album from
64' It has an eighteen year old Tony Williams on it. He plays with a
great deal of finesse and dynamics on that one.
Mike
>
>