OT: Blind Allegiance

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Darrin

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Sep 12, 2002, 11:12:54 PM9/12/02
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QUESTION AUTHORITY! QUESTION GOVERNMENT! Free thinkers and free speakers
are what we need in these times more than anything. If we follow along
blindly with everything our government does then we cease to be a free
people. You are not unpatriotic or un-American for speaking your mind!
Speaking out against government action in which you disagree is the most
American thing we can do! Don't buy all of the hype and rhetoric and don't
be afraid to be called unpatriotic for voicing your opinion. The colors of
our beloved flag are indeed beautiful and very bright. Don't allow
yourselves to be blinded by them.


Jack

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Sep 13, 2002, 12:20:07 AM9/13/02
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"Darrin" <em...@address.com> wrote in message
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If you don't believe in protecting freedom by force, you don't deserve it.
The day pacifists like yourself are in power, the only thing blinding would
be the total destruction of American credibility.


The Colemans

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Sep 13, 2002, 12:47:39 AM9/13/02
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"Mr" <M...@Moose.com> wrote in message
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> Of course you should question the questioners too.

That much, I agree with.

Being too
> tragically hip, blinded by the cult of hipness is just as fatal.

And I'd like to add that being tragically square, blinded by the cult of
squareness is just as fatal.

> The hallmark of a lemming of course is one who doesnt even realize
> they are one.

*ahem*

>Anti-social teens of course are legendarily herd-like
> and cultists.

and I'd like to add that teens who seem very normally socialized are
legendarily closed minded and snobbish.

They love to annoint a guru who to them knows all and
> then follow them slavishly all while claiming to be a free thinker.

And I'd like to add that the above have sets of hero gurus who to them
represent aspects of total rightness just as the Greek Gods themselves were
divided by power and specific influence, who expect the same near God like
allegiance, all the while claiming they represent true freedom.


And then there's those Fucking Independants.. don't get me started ..neither
here nor there, and that's just disturbing!
And the Libertarians, what the hell are they talking about?

I know at least a dozen stereotypical mannerisms and gestures for each of
these outcasts..

why back in my day we used to just hang those anti social teens right by the
water cooler as a warning to any who came after..
and I'll tell you something else..
if we even SAW a guru it was shoot first and anybody who asked a question
would get shot, too!
We didn't mess around back in the day by golly...


Sorry. just got carried away questioning the questioner.

Twang!

Darrin

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Sep 13, 2002, 2:34:20 AM9/13/02
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Assuming that I posted this opinion in an attempt to be hip (or square) does
that make the statement any less true? Ever heard of the First Amendment? We
should feel free, not afraid, to excersise our First Amendment rights. I
beleive that too many people these days are either spoon-fed their "opinion"
by CNN or are too afraid that what they truly beleive could be construed as
unpatriotic. That's my own opinion, not some cult guru's, and I'm far from
an antisocial outcast.


"The Colemans" <twa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
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Darrin

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Sep 13, 2002, 2:45:37 AM9/13/02
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Hmmm. I looked back through my post for the pacifist statement I apparently
made, but I couldn't find it. Could it be that it's not in there? Maybe
someone could point it out to me?

Mr

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Sep 13, 2002, 4:09:29 AM9/13/02
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On Fri, 13 Sep 2002 06:34:20 GMT, "Darrin" <em...@address.com> wrote:

>Assuming that I posted this opinion in an attempt to be hip (or square) does
>that make the statement any less true? Ever heard of the First Amendment? We
>should feel free, not afraid, to excersise our First Amendment rights. I
>beleive that too many people these days are either spoon-fed their "opinion"
>by CNN or are too afraid that what they truly beleive could be construed as
>unpatriotic. That's my own opinion, not some cult guru's, and I'm far from
>an antisocial outcast.


One should never be afraid but one tends to see such "freethinking"
and glib comments generally from the lemmings on the Left. As
predictable as the opinions spoonfed to the lemmings on the Right.
Generally I find the Left far more blind because they really do feel
superior and feel as if they arent being spoonfed or being lemmings
and yet you see the same opinions handed down in Rush Limbaugh
fashion, from the DNC and other popular columnists echoed the next day
in their posts. The people espousing never waver in their opinions
across the board on all issues, except that it differs depending on if
"their side" backs it or not.

Question the governments authority? Yes , its a cliche going back as
far as Agamemnon. Should we have questioned WWII ? The Official line
on the Holocaust? There were active America Firsters. Should we
question the Civil Rights movements implementation into law? Many
southern states were actively against it and there were "guerilla"
movements in such states or "terrorists" depending on your point of
view . Was Kennedy's space race a waste of money to show Russia who
was boss? Led by Werner Von Braun , who formerly worked for the Nazis?

Such slogans dont make a lot of sense. You should deploy critical
thinking skills on every issue whether it involves your ethnic group,
*any* country , any ideological group - *all* sides. Sometimes that
means youll agree with the government, other times not. And there
will be a diversity of opinion. And not everyone who disagrees with
you will be an idiot or evil.

As Zappa said :


Zappa: Because of my reputation, what else. In the eyes of clean
citizens, I am still a bizarre freak undermining authority. And they
are right! At least: I try to be that in my art. But in reality I'm a
lot more to the point and normal than most people think. I've never
been one of those whacked out hippies. In 1967, "We're only in it for
the money" was the only record that dared make critical comments with
regards to the hippiewave and the flower power. We - my band The
Mothers Of Invention - weren't hippies, but freaks. The difference was
that, just like squares (the American term for conformist citizens),
hippies actually wore some kind of uniform, had a uniform use of
language and a flock mentality.


I can remember being criticized over having said at a concert in
London, that students had better concentrated upon their studies
instead of wasting their time with protest marches and strikes.
Because as soon as you become a lawyer or a doctor or a politician,
you have a lot more pulling power to change the world than you would
have being a longhaired student. Twenty years later I still think in
an unconventional way, but otherwise I work a whole lot more
efficiently than a lot of these businessmen in their designer suits: I
don't take drugs, I get up early, I am a workaholic, I lead my own
company... It is a false assumption to think you have to lead a crazy
life in order to have original ideas, and it's also a false assumption
that leading a normal life means conforming to the majority. For
instance, I am a family man. I love my family. My family is the
cornerstone of my society. I'm said to be a weirdo, a freak, but none
of my kids takes drugs, or has been arrested by the police, or have
committed suicide, or ran away from home...


Im much more afraid of the groups that dont realize they are lemmings
and want to push their views with a messianic fervor suited more for
the Spanish Inquisition. whether from the Left or the Right.

You should ask yourself --- Have I ever changed my opinion from an
argument on "the other side?" Do I only think one group of people
have the complete wisdom of the universe? Do I have opinions that
draw across various ideological lines?

One should never be afraid to speak ones mind. But there are
appropriate venues and inappropriate ones and you can never discount
the fact , *you* and not someone else might be the idiot. Humility is
a necessary trait when it comes to humans. Timothy Leary I saw in his
later years laughing at a tape of himself and remarked "We were all
idiots back then!"

As for the "suits" , once it was hip to wear a nehru jacket or beads
and proclaim yourself "free" from mainstream America, to wear the same
old nehru suit now is hardly an act of cutting edge fashion. In the
same way you dont want to be a lemming and out-of-it thinking you are
hip. Many "conformists" still use the same old worn rhetoric about
"mainstreamers" , who often *know* they are conforming. Its far
worse when you dont know and you are totally out of it. Make sure you
know what you are talking about. Some huge changes have happened in
regards to postmodern philosophy, economics and even poltics since
the 1960's. I'll give you clue , its not the cartoonish version you
see blared all over the net by "freethinkers".

A member of the MC5 was on recently on National Public Radio laughing
saying anyone who thought they sat around with shotguns planning a
revolution, are totally mistaken. He said they were sitting around
getting high and having a ball. The interviewer read their Manifesto
which proclaimed Free Food, Free Media, Free Everything..........
She asked "So were your concerts free ?"

"Heck No ! " , he laughed. We charged as much as we could get away
with but it often ended up free.

Jack Kerouc it was stated recently by a biographer was a pretty
reactionary redneck who was pro-Vietnam War.

Eric Burden once said he talked to Jimi Hendrix and was surprised to
hear the usual anti-commie rhetoric coming out of him and ascribed it
to his former years as a paratrooper.

Reality is so much messier than how we imagine it. Humans are largely
a joke. There are serious consequences from their actions but it's
hard to take *any* human completely seriously.


Join the Non-Conformist Conformist Association :

http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/dansworld/index.html

Arrogant

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Sep 13, 2002, 5:09:07 AM9/13/02
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What the fuck are you talking about? Are you even attempting to say we
shouldn't make a gigantic litter box of Iraq?

Darrin <em...@address.com> wrote in message

Arrogant

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Sep 13, 2002, 5:09:07 AM9/13/02
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What the fuck are you talking about? Are you even attempting to say we
shouldn't make a gigantic litter box of Iraq?

Darrin <em...@address.com> wrote in message

Arrogant

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Sep 13, 2002, 5:09:07 AM9/13/02
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What the fuck are you talking about? Are you even attempting to say we
shouldn't make a gigantic litter box of Iraq?

Darrin <em...@address.com> wrote in message

Arrogant

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Sep 13, 2002, 5:44:42 AM9/13/02
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Uh yeah...Mindspring fucked those posts up...

Mo_ron_Hubbard

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Sep 13, 2002, 9:37:57 AM9/13/02
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Question authority? Of course! Undermine authority? Never! Not here, not
anytime. What hype and what rhetoric are you speaking about? Iraq? I will
never believe nor care about those in dinkastan. Those people are raised as
kids to hate us. They think it is their duty to kill us. Now I don't want
to go off on a rant however, I believe all Americans should only die of
natural causes. Not by being ran over by a 747. Unfortunately, their is a
part of the worlds population who doesn't see it that way. When I make my
decisions on topics such as should we invade Iraq I'm not going to base it
on the opinion of the french or any others who have short memories. I will
base it on fact. Here is a fact: saddams 15 seconds are about up.

911 can happen again in this country and if we aren't on the offensive IT
WILL HAPPEN AGAIN. Don't mean to upset any of the pacifists in this ng
however, I've seen enough sadness on the tv the last few days. I don't want
to see it again. I want Mr. Bush to find them all and render them unable to
attack us again. In other words kill the motherfuckers!

Are we clear?

"Darrin" <em...@address.com> wrote in message

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Joester

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Sep 13, 2002, 10:15:10 AM9/13/02
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Something almost happened in Fla. Maybe it's time to let the local's
handle the riff raff. Y'eah C'mon! Question authority but respect their
decisions. Or get out and vote or run for office.

J. Janasov

"Mo_ron_Hubbard" <Mo-ron_...@shotmail.com> wrote in message
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The Colemans

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Sep 13, 2002, 11:20:10 AM9/13/02
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"Mo_ron_Hubbard" <Mo-ron_...@shotmail.com> wrote in message
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> Question authority? Of course! Undermine authority? Never! Not here,
not
> anytime.

Yeah. If Tricky Dick wants to go around breaking into Hotels who are we to
comlain..

What hype and what rhetoric are you speaking about? Iraq? I will
> never believe nor care about those in dinkastan. Those people are raised
as
> kids to hate us. They think it is their duty to kill us. Now I don't
want
> to go off on a rant however, I believe all Americans should only die of
> natural causes. Not by being ran over by a 747. Unfortunately, their is
a
> part of the worlds population who doesn't see it that way. When I make my
> decisions on topics such as should we invade Iraq I'm not going to base it
> on the opinion of the french or any others who have short memories. I
will
> base it on fact. Here is a fact: saddams 15 seconds are about up.
>
> 911 can happen again in this country and if we aren't on the offensive IT
> WILL HAPPEN AGAIN. Don't mean to upset any of the pacifists in this ng
> however, I've seen enough sadness on the tv the last few days. I don't
want
> to see it again. I want Mr. Bush to find them all and render them unable
to
> attack us again. In other words kill the motherfuckers!
>
> Are we clear?

Nope.
First off, I don't know where you get off putting the original post in only
the light of recent events.
I don't know where you get off thinking that authority is always right. How
come you can't remember anything else?
As to 'kill the motherfuckers'.. that's just stupid nonsensical reactionary
crap. Capture the guilty, give them a trial, and justice will out.
Twang!

Mo_ron_Hubbard

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Sep 13, 2002, 1:25:38 PM9/13/02
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Twang, go back and read what I wrote asswipe. What the fuck does nixon have
to do with my response? Are you comparing a B&E to what happened on 911? I
said, what fucking rhetoric and hype are you talking about? With no answer
to that question should I consider that recent events are the reason for the
original post? What the fuck do you think? "Capture the guilty", guilty of
what? The "guilty" people are dead. What the fuck are you trying to say?
Perhaps you mean capture the accomplices? And do what with them?

"stupid nonsensical reactionary crap"? Yeah, your right fuckstick, I'm
reacting to 3025 dead people...how the fuck do you react to it? You are one
of those dicks who thinks that maybe we've made these people mad and now
they don't like us...who the fuck cares. Where do you get the fucking idea
that we have to try fucking imbeciles that are targeting us? They know one
language. Do you even know what the fuck you are talking about?

"Can't remember anything else"...what the fuck else should I be remembering
asshole?

You must be one of these enlightened dicks who think because you don't use
verbs such as "kill" that you are something...your not shit...in fact you
probably suck as a guitar player

now, shut the fuck up and go back to practicing scales...

"The Colemans" <twa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

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The Colemans

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Sep 13, 2002, 4:31:26 PM9/13/02
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"Mo_ron_Hubbard" <Mo-ron_...@shotmail.com> wrote in message
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> Twang, go back and read what I wrote asswipe.

Come on over shitface.
We'll 'discuss' it.

What the fuck does nixon have
> to do with my response?

can't you read?
didn't you understand your own post?


Are you comparing a B&E to what happened on 911?

are you calling what nixon did a B&E?
Are you a total jackass?

I
> said, what fucking rhetoric and hype are you talking about?

the obvious implication was any and all rhetoric and hype.
can't you comprehend?


With no answer
> to that question should I consider that recent events are the reason for
the
> original post? What the fuck do you think? "Capture the guilty", guilty
of
> what? The "guilty" people are dead. What the fuck are you trying to say?
> Perhaps you mean capture the accomplices? And do what with them?

this is so dumb I think you just need to reread the reply.
several times.
with help.

> "stupid nonsensical reactionary crap"? Yeah, your right fuckstick, I'm
> reacting to 3025 dead people...how the fuck do you react to it?

you're focusing on 9/11.. I wasn't. again.. go read the post.
get a tutor.

You are one
> of those dicks who thinks that maybe we've made these people mad and now

they don't like us.. who the fuck cares?

I care very deeply about how my countrys foreign policy affects other
people, if that's what you mean.
As to being a dick.. come on over. *s*

Where do you get the fucking idea
> that we have to try fucking imbeciles that are targeting us?

Everything I've ever thought about justice is my source.

They know one
> language. Do you even know what the fuck you are talking about?

Yes, but I wasn't talking about them.. I was talking about how stupid your
post was. and how stupid your ideas are.
Which you've now proven time and again.

> "Can't remember anything else"...what the fuck else should I be
remembering
> asshole?

Nothing. I don't believe you can.

> You must be one of these enlightened dicks who think because you don't use
> verbs such as "kill" that you are something...your not shit...in fact you
> probably suck as a guitar player

Come over and suck me.

> now, shut the fuck up and go back to practicing scales...

grow up. learn to read. study the constitution.
and then.. fuck off!
Twang!

mark scialabba

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Sep 13, 2002, 5:00:53 PM9/13/02
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Dude, you really are a moron.

Mo_ron_Hubbard <Mo-ron_...@shotmail.com> wrote in message
news:VSlg9.128131$ja.19...@twister.columbus.rr.com...

> Question authority? Of course! Undermine authority? Never! Not here,
not
> anytime.

So what good is the questioning?

>What hype and what rhetoric are you speaking about? Iraq? I will
> never believe nor care about those in dinkastan. Those people are raised
as
> kids to hate us. They think it is their duty to kill us.

Haha.... suuuuuuuuuure..... All of "those people" are all out to get us.

>Now I don't want
> to go off on a rant however, I believe all Americans should only die of
> natural causes.

But of course only americans, right?

>Not by being ran over by a 747. Unfortunately, their is a
> part of the worlds population who doesn't see it that way. When I make my
> decisions on topics such as should we invade Iraq I'm not going to base it
> on the opinion of the french or any others who have short memories. I
will
> base it on fact. Here is a fact: saddams 15 seconds are about up.
>

So you based your opinion on Iraq that we should invade because he willl be
invaded? What?

> 911 can happen again in this country and if we aren't on the offensive IT
> WILL HAPPEN AGAIN.

So we should go around attacking countries? How does that stop terrorism?

>Don't mean to upset any of the pacifists in this ng
> however, I've seen enough sadness on the tv the last few days. I don't
want
> to see it again. I want Mr. Bush to find them all and render them unable
to
> attack us again. In other words kill the motherfuckers!
>
> Are we clear?
>

No, you seem a little unclear.

Mo_ron_Hubbard

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Sep 13, 2002, 5:52:21 PM9/13/02
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twang, you've got me frightened toughguy

typical shithead, you respond with no answers


"The Colemans" <twa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

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Mo_ron_Hubbard

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Sep 13, 2002, 5:54:12 PM9/13/02
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Mark, don't be such a pussy
"mark scialabba" <scia...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
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mark scialabba

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Sep 13, 2002, 6:47:38 PM9/13/02
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"typical shithead, you respond with no answers"
-Moron Hubbard Sept. 13, 2002


Mo_ron_Hubbard <Mo-ron_...@shotmail.com> wrote in message

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Mo_ron_Hubbard

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Sep 13, 2002, 7:54:16 PM9/13/02
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scabby dude, good answer

"mark scialabba" <scia...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
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CompUser

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Sep 14, 2002, 12:49:55 AM9/14/02
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"The Colemans" wrote ...
>

> you're focusing on 9/11.. I wasn't. again.. go read the post.

Brother, it's time you did...

Steve

Mike C.

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Sep 14, 2002, 1:18:27 AM9/14/02
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"CompUser" <steve762u...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Tdzg9.3695$rJ3.2...@kent.svc.tds.net...


Do you guys know what "e-mail" is? What exactly is the purpose of airing
this crap in a public forum when you've obviously got a jones for each
other? Get a room, fercrissakes.


CompUser

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Sep 14, 2002, 1:52:42 AM9/14/02
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"Mike C." wrote ...

>
> Do you guys know what "e-mail" is? What exactly is the purpose of airing
> this crap in a public forum when you've obviously got a jones for each
> other? Get a room, fercrissakes.

Welcome to A Usenet Alt-Hierarchy Group, Mike!


Steve


Lord Valve

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Sep 14, 2002, 2:04:55 AM9/14/02
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Scialabba the Torch wrote:

> Dude, you really are a moron.

And you're a terrorist, by your own admission.
No contest.

Lord Valve
American


-=lemmy loud=-

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Sep 13, 2002, 11:19:03 PM9/13/02
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"Darrin" <em...@address.com> wrote in message news:WIcg9.645$Gc7...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...

Wow....Ive been alive for 4 & 1/2 decades and have heard the above in every one.
I subscribe to "silent anarchy".....their laws dont apply to me. I do whatever I
want to do anyway. If you are reasonably smart, dont hurt or bother your
fellow man, even faking respect for stuff you dont believe in, you too will find
that there is nothing you cant do just by being smart about it.
Do I want a bunch of sub-intellected cro-mags attached to my cause........No.
Ill just keep doing whatever I want to do, quietly.
But by all means please keep doing stuff like this, even loudly in public too.......
By becoming such an easy target you will help keep the Authorities you
are obssessed with questioning attentions off of me while I am doing anything I feel
like doing.


The Colemans

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Sep 14, 2002, 3:18:52 PM9/14/02
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"CompUser" <steve762u...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Tdzg9.3695$rJ3.2...@kent.svc.tds.net...
>

No, it's not.
What you call focus I call hysteria.
Twang!

Albert van Schroenen

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Sep 14, 2002, 4:37:17 PM9/14/02
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> In other words kill the motherfuckers!

oh, you guys.

this hateful chest-beating is going out around the world. are you trying to
recruit a few more terrorists to the anti-american cause, or what?

virtually the whole world shares your pain about 9/11. even russia, china
and most islamic countries did not object when you waded into afghanistan.
it was a legitimate response, even if you did kill three times more
civilians than died in the world trade center. and carpet the place with
cluster bombs, which for years to come will maim civilians, often children,
when they handle the 10% of bomblets that fail to explode.

but iraq is not the same kettle of fish. many non-americans, including me,
agree that saddam is a ruthless maniac with the potential to be very
dangerous, and quite possibly he should be removed, but nobody says he had
anything to do with 9/11.

many people would argue that the proposed attack has little to do with 9/11
and much to do with the u.s. arms and oil industries, not to mention dubya's
political standing at home.

saddam's fate ought to be a matter for the international community as
embodied by the united nations.

if you attack iraq on your own you will make saddam a hero of the muslim
world and spawn enough terrorist recruits to last the next forty years. the
attack will be seen as typical arrogant u.s. bullying, bitterly resented in
all the usual fanatical quarters. osama bin laden, if he's alive, must be
rubbing his hands and hoping you will just do it. a reaction like this is
probably exactly what he intended.

it will only make things worse. already much of the world finds america
distasteful.

don't be so surprised.

your government props up brutal and corrupt regimes wherever it suits your
"national interest" - notably, in the present context, in the oil-rich arab
world. your government does violence to anyone who becomes inconvenient,
such as its former clients noriega in panama and saddam in iraq, and
countless victims of covert action.

you worship greed. your no-limits transnational corporations rape the earth
while your sold-out government backtracks on kyoto.

while preaching free trade, you prevent third-world exports from entering
your country, thereby condemning millions of people to poverty and premature
death.

while paying lip service to sovereignty, you threaten even your allies to
coerce them into toeing your ludicrously counterproductive line on the war
on drugs.

your hard-sell mickey mouse export culture erodes other peoples' cultures
and national self-esteem. you churn out third-rate movies and embarrassing
television shows that end up dominating foreign stations because, past their
sell-by date, they're cheaper than home-brewed programs. your fast-food
chains damage local cuisines and help export america's obesity.

you think guns are cool.

the land of the free boasts the world's largest prison population, both in
absolute terms and per capita. you put more people to death than anywhere
else except china, iran and saudi arabia.

the rest of the world has some fair resentments about america. don't
provide more. a kill-'em-all response to 9/11 is the way to guarantee
future tragedies, not prevent them.

so is the united states all bad? no! yours is a vast, heterogeneous
country that produces many of the best people in every possible field. you
make some great music and even a few great movies. you have an inspiring
constitution and many progressive ideas. individually, many of you are
wonderful people who do not conform to the ugly stereotypes.

there is a lot to love about the u.s., and it would be good if,
collectively, you could display more of that side of your country to the
world. and perhaps elect the occasional non-gangster for president.


+0:-)

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Sep 14, 2002, 4:47:18 PM9/14/02
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Albert van Schroenen schrieb:

> posting saved and forwarded
>

thank you, Albert !

Flonz

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Sep 14, 2002, 5:41:26 PM9/14/02
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On Fri, 13 Sep 2002 17:25:38 GMT, "Mo_ron_Hubbard"
<Mo-ron_...@shotmail.com> wrote:

>Twang, go back and read what I wrote asswipe. What the fuck does nixon have
>to do with my response? Are you comparing a B&E to what happened on 911? I
>said, what fucking rhetoric and hype are you talking about? With no answer
>to that question should I consider that recent events are the reason for the
>original post? What the fuck do you think? "Capture the guilty", guilty of
>what? The "guilty" people are dead. What the fuck are you trying to say?
>Perhaps you mean capture the accomplices? And do what with them?
>
>"stupid nonsensical reactionary crap"? Yeah, your right fuckstick, I'm
>reacting to 3025 dead people...how the fuck do you react to it?

This makes me sick. You are reacting to a 3025. But other people can't
react to all the deaths caused by "Americans"?
Let's ALL die from a natural death, not only Americans...

Flonz

> You are one
>of those dicks who thinks that maybe we've made these people mad and now
>they don't like us...who the fuck cares.

ps-obviously somebody made you mad...who the fuck cares

Albert van Schroenen

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Sep 14, 2002, 6:39:25 PM9/14/02
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> In other words kill the motherfuckers!

oh, you guys.

this hateful chest-beating is going out around the world. are you trying to
recruit a few more terrorists to the anti-american cause, or what?

virtually the whole world shares your pain about 9/11. even russia, china

and the islamic countries did not object when you waded into afghanistan.


it was a legitimate response, even if you did kill three times more

civilians than died in the world trade center. and even if you did carpet


the place with cluster bombs, which for years to come will maim civilians,

often children, when they handle the 7% of bomblets that fail to explode.
http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/11/CBAfgh1116.htm

but iraq is a different kettle of fish. although many non-americans,


including me, agree that saddam is a ruthless maniac with the potential to

be very dangerous, and quite possibly should be removed, nobody says he had


anything to do with 9/11.

many people would argue that the proposed attack has little to do with 9/11
and much to do with the u.s. arms and oil industries, not to mention dubya's

political capital at home.

saddam's fate ought to be a matter for the international community as
embodied by the united nations.

if you attack iraq on your own you will make saddam the hero of the muslim
world and spawn enough terrorist recruits to poison the next forty years.


the attack will be seen as typical arrogant u.s. bullying, bitterly resented
in all the usual fanatical quarters. osama bin laden, if he's alive, must

be rubbing his hands and hoping you will Just Do It.

it will only make things worse. already much of the world finds america
distasteful.

don't be so surprised.

your government props up brutal and corrupt regimes wherever it suits your

"national interest" - notably, in the present context, the oil-rich arab


world. your government does violence to anyone who becomes inconvenient,
such as its former clients noriega in panama and saddam in iraq, and

countless victims of covert action. it forgives every abuse by its client
israel.

you worship greed. your no-limits transnational corporations rape the earth
while your sold-out government backtracks on kyoto.

while preaching free trade, you prevent third-world exports from entering
your country, thereby condemning millions of people to poverty and premature
death.

no wonder they need to sell you drugs.

and then, while paying lip service to sovereignty, you threaten even your


allies to coerce them into toeing your ludicrously counterproductive line on

the War on Drugs. War on Terrorism, anybody?

your hard-sell mickey mouse export culture erodes other peoples' cultures

and identities, provoking indignation. you churn out third-rate movies and


embarrassing television shows that end up dominating foreign stations

because, mass-produced and past their sell-by date, they're cheaper than


home-brewed programs. your fast-food chains damage local cuisines and

export america's obesity.

you think guns are cool.

the land of the free boasts the world's largest prison population, both in
absolute terms and per capita. you put more people to death than anywhere
else except china, iran and saudi arabia.

yet you claim to champion democracy and human rights. hypocrisy stinks.

so the rest of the world harbours some fair resentments against america.
don't provide any more. a kill-'em-all response to 9/11 will guarantee


future tragedies, not prevent them.

so is the united states all bad? no. yours is a vast, heterogeneous


country that produces many of the best people in every possible field. you
make some great music and even a few great movies. you have an inspiring
constitution and many progressive ideas. individually, many of you are
wonderful people who do not conform to the ugly stereotypes.

there is a lot to love about the u.s.a.

collectively, do try to display more of that side of your country to the
world, and perhaps elect the occasional non-gangster for president.

Adam Cook

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Sep 14, 2002, 6:23:23 PM9/14/02
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"Albert van Schroenen" <a...@nowhere.com> wrote in message

> virtually the whole world shares your pain about 9/11. even russia, china
> and most islamic countries did not object when you waded into afghanistan.
> it was a legitimate response, even if you did kill three times more
> civilians than died in the world trade center.

Excuse me? Where are you getting these numbers from?

- Adam


zspazz

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Sep 14, 2002, 7:45:50 PM9/14/02
to

Very well put........
Thanks Albert!!!!

To The World:
We (the US) really aren't all as self centered as the retarded "chest
beaters" in this thread would seem to indicate.

m
(who hopes we learn to practice what we preach)

Lord Valve

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Sep 14, 2002, 7:39:54 PM9/14/02
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Albert van Schroenen wrote:

> > In other words kill the motherfuckers!
>
> oh, you guys.

Fuck you. OK? If you don't want to help,
stand aside and we'll deal with it. Stick your
one-world socialist horseshit up your communist
ass.

Lord Valve
American

Elvis Paisley

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Sep 14, 2002, 8:12:53 PM9/14/02
to
Thank you Albert. My sentiments exactly even though I'm a gringo yank.
That's right, even though born in the USA, I was trasported all over the
world as a military brat and now consider myself a lifeform from planet
earth presently residing in the North American landmass. And am certainly
not proud of our hypocritical, power hungry, Constitution eroding crooked
government.

I simply can't believe we are going to be the aggressors with a pre-emptive
attack against Iraq.
Saddam may be a madman, but I think he's mad at us for fucking with him and
his country and his country's resources and is basically doing what any
leader of any country would do - defend their own country. Gee, it's ok that
the US has enough weapons of mass destruction to knock out the whole planet
and probably take it out of orbit, but Iraq is not allowed to have hand
grenades or other means to defend their sovereign state?

Remember "Operation Desert Scam"? From what I understand there is a huge
pool of oil under Kuwait AND Iraq. But Kuwait was pumping it out more
efficiently and quicker. So Iraq engaged Kuwait in a border war - the kind
of border war arab nations have been having for centuries. BUT, since the
Bush family had finacial interests in Kuwait's oil operation, there was this
big pretense of defending our "ally" even if it was a dictatorship and not a
fellow democracy.

However now, the USA has a bigger enemy. And that is John Ascroft. This
bastard basically wrote the so-called "Patriot Act" and our Congress passed
it without even reading it as a response to the latest terrorism. It is a
complete abuse of the 4th Amendment. Environmentalists are now designated as
terrorists as well as anyone who publicly disagrees with any of our
goverment's policies. In it is stated that the police can arrest anyone
without any probable cause and keep them locked up indefinitely. It has
granted that the FBI can go into your home while you are away and search
your house. Surveilance cameras will be placed everywhere.

This is not the America I grew up with, learned it's history and pledged
allegience to. Now it's home of the bellicose, land of the restricted.

Ever see or read "The Handmaid's Tale"?

EP


"Albert van Schroenen" <a...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3d839...@news1.mweb.co.za...

Elvis Paisley

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Sep 14, 2002, 8:29:29 PM9/14/02
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"Lard Willy&