So, Bell's released the Elite source, has he?

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Paul Roberts

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Nov 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/24/99
to
Just wondered if everybody knew this yet or not. My apologies if I'm weeks
behind on this one.

It's on his "new" site at http://www.elite0.fsnet.co.uk/elite/


--
Paul Roberts
Anti-Matter Productions
e-mail: pa...@haggisco.clara.net
http://www.anti-matter.clara.net/

Christian

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
to
For £50 I'll post up my disassembled version with comments :-)

________
Elite - The New Kind
The Reverse Engineered Source To Elite.
http://home.clara.net/cjpinder


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Matt W

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
to
In article <HTW_3.93$qX4....@nnrp4.clara.net>, Paul Roberts
<pa...@haggisco.clara.net> writes
ah a freeserve account.

just whack the CD in. :)
--
Matt W
http://fly.to/btff

David Braben

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
to alt.fan.elite

Paul Roberts wrote in message ...

>Just wondered if everybody knew this yet or not. My apologies if I'm weeks
>behind on this one.


No - it was your post that drew my attention to it - I think it only went up
last night.

>It's on his "new" site at http://www.elite0.fsnet.co.uk/elite/


Thanks for this.

Apologies, though - I'm afraid I'm going to have to get this one pulled too
because of the libellous stuff and the misleading story of the CIX website.

<sigh>

I also note he's (well - I guess this is probably Ian - but it is not linked
to the Ian Bell site which is strange) revived the "who wrote what" stuff.
It is sad that this means so much to him after this much time, and that he
feels he needs to mislead people like this, especially the ship designs. I
suspect he's reading this so he may get a passing pang of guilt.

David Braben
www.frontier.co.uk

Tom Morton

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
to

Matt W <Elit...@ponsanooth0.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:+ASKJAAh...@ponsanooth0.demon.co.uk...

> In article <HTW_3.93$qX4....@nnrp4.clara.net>, Paul Roberts
> <pa...@haggisco.clara.net> writes
> >Just wondered if everybody knew this yet or not. My apologies if
I'm weeks
> >behind on this one.
> >
> >It's on his "new" site at http://www.elite0.fsnet.co.uk/elite/
> >
> >
> >--
> >Paul Roberts
> >Anti-Matter Productions
> >e-mail: pa...@haggisco.clara.net
> >http://www.anti-matter.clara.net/
> >
> >
> ah a freeserve account.
>
> just whack the CD in. :)

fsnet.co.uk isn't freeserve!(?) Since when?


--
Yikes Station: Frontier Elite 2 Website
http://www.yikesstation.freeserve.co.uk

Tom 'Moretom' Morton

Andrew R. Gillett

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
to alt.fan.elite
Tom Morton <tmo...@yikesstation.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in article
<81jf6h$jgb$2...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>...

> fsnet.co.uk isn't freeserve!(?) Since when?

Yes, it is Freeserve. That domain was introduced about two months ago.

Mike Lynch

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
to
im sorry if there ia anything wrong that i say here but please can you tell
me what the point of taking down the site is? the source is for a bbc a
computer which is no longer used. you cant be getting very much money out of
it and it looks to me like its a childish fight.
steve
p.s. i again express my aoplogies if anything is wrong.

David Braben <dbrabe...@frontier.co.uk> wrote in message
news:FRNT574...@frontier.co.uk...


>
> Paul Roberts wrote in message ...

> >Just wondered if everybody knew this yet or not. My apologies if I'm
weeks
> >behind on this one.
>
>

> No - it was your post that drew my attention to it - I think it only went
up
> last night.
>

> >It's on his "new" site at http://www.elite0.fsnet.co.uk/elite/
>
>

David Braben

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
to alt.fan.elite
It appears now to be linked to the Ian Bell site, so I guess it is him!

David Braben
www.frontier.co.uk


Christian

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
to
In article <FRNT574...@frontier.co.uk>,

"David Braben" <dbrabe...@frontier.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Apologies, though - I'm afraid I'm going to have to get this one
pulled too
> because of the libellous stuff and the misleading story of the CIX
website.

Why don't you just let it drop and move on.
What in particular do you find libellous on the site?
You posted one version of the CIX website story. Ian has posted his
version. The only difference in the stories is the viewpoint.
Can't you just agree to differ and get on with things.

> I also note he's (well - I guess this is probably Ian - but it is not

linked


> to the Ian Bell site which is strange) revived the "who wrote what"
stuff.

There is a link to the Elite page from Ian's main home page. The "who
wrote what" part is in the FAQ. I'm sure it is a question that you
both get asked frequently.

> It is sad that this means so much to him after this much time, and
that he
> feels he needs to mislead people like this, especially the ship
designs. I
> suspect he's reading this so he may get a passing pang of guilt.

It obviously means a lot to you or you wouldn't keep going on about
it. Anybody who knows anything about Elite knows that it was a joint
effort. Who wrote what probably has a small amount of historical
interest to some people, but it isn't worth arguing about. Move on.

Christian.

Matt W

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
to
In article <81jf6h$jgb$2...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>, Tom Morton <tmorton@yike
sstation.freeserve.co.uk> writes

>
>Matt W <Elit...@ponsanooth0.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:+ASKJAAh...@ponsanooth0.demon.co.uk...
>> In article <HTW_3.93$qX4....@nnrp4.clara.net>, Paul Roberts
>> <pa...@haggisco.clara.net> writes
>> >Just wondered if everybody knew this yet or not. My apologies if
>I'm weeks
>> >behind on this one.
>> >
>> >It's on his "new" site at http://www.elite0.fsnet.co.uk/elite/
>> >
>> >
>> >--
>> >Paul Roberts
>> >Anti-Matter Productions
>> >e-mail: pa...@haggisco.clara.net
>> >http://www.anti-matter.clara.net/
>> >
>> >
>> ah a freeserve account.
>>
>> just whack the CD in. :)
>
>fsnet.co.uk isn't freeserve!(?) Since when?
>
>
>--
>Yikes Station: Frontier Elite 2 Website
>http://www.yikesstation.freeserve.co.uk
>
>Tom 'Moretom' Morton
>
>
>
>
since I put the cd in my mates computer yesterday.

fsbusiness.co.uk
fsnet.co.uk
freeserve.co.uk

all from the same CD.

Matt Dibb

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
to

Its for people who don't want to look cheap.

David Braben

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
to alt.fan.elite

Mike Lynch wrote in message <81jimg$hd5$1...@gxsn.com>...

>im sorry if there ia anything wrong that i say here but please can you tell
>me what the point of taking down the site is? the source is for a bbc a
>computer which is no longer used. you cant be getting very much money out
of
>it and it looks to me like its a childish fight.
> steve
>p.s. i again express my aoplogies if anything is wrong.


My main objection, as I said, is the legal stuff - the libel, and the
misleading story of the CIX site. I have a mild objection to the
self-aggrandisment of the who-wrote-what stuff, but taking issue with that
would indeed be a childish fight.

David Braben
www.frontier.co.uk


Phil

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
to
>www.frontier.co.ukOn Thu, 25 Nov 1999 15:16:31 -0000, "David Braben" <dbrabe...@frontier.co.uk> wrote:


>My main objection, as I said, is the legal stuff - the libel, and the
>misleading story of the CIX site. I have a mild objection to the
>self-aggrandisment of the who-wrote-what stuff, but taking issue with that
>would indeed be a childish fight.
>
>David Braben
>www.frontier.co.uk

David, what are your thoughts reference Ians' posting of the source
code?

Could you not publish the same source on your site?

Still, it's now 'out there' so no doubt it will 'do the rounds' via
the usual distribution channels.


Phil


Franke

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
to

Christian <cpi...@my-deja.com> schreef in berichtnieuws
81k05u$9d$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

I agree with Christian. For a (demi)-god and legend mr. Braben seems to be
very childish about the issue.

Franke

Maybe we should mirror Ian's site al over the place ;-)

Matt W

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
to
In article <81k6vs$jtb$1...@news.hccnet.nl>, Franke <fsch...@dds.nl>
writes

>I agree with Christian. For a (demi)-god and legend mr. Braben seems to be
>very childish about the issue.
>
>Franke
>
>Maybe we should mirror Ian's site al over the place ;-)
>
>
Not this again!!!!!!!
I don't want another flame war about it.

Mr Braben can't put the code up, because Frontier Developments is a far
bigger target than one person.

Ian Bell supposedly sold the rights to elite.

Paul Roberts

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
to

David Braben <dbrabe...@frontier.co.uk> wrote in message
news:FRNT574...@frontier.co.uk...
>
> Paul Roberts wrote in message ...
> >Just wondered if everybody knew this yet or not. My apologies if I'm
weeks
> >behind on this one.
>
>
> No - it was your post that drew my attention to it - I think it only went
up
> last night.
I got the news from PC Format's site.
http://www.pcformat.co.uk/newsread.asp?story_id=430 )

> Apologies, though - I'm afraid I'm going to have to get this one pulled
too
> because of the libellous stuff and the misleading story of the CIX
website.

I must admit I was a little surprised to see such a "thorough" collection of
AFE posts concerning the saga...

Surely it's not worth zapping another site; as Ian is quoting
http://www.bigfoot.com/~elite0 as his URL
or "safe bookmark", he can continue to move the files and change the
redirection for as long as necessary.

Mike Lynch

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
to
can i stick it(the source) on my page then :)

David Braben <dbrabe...@frontier.co.uk> wrote in message

news:FRNT575...@frontier.co.uk...


>
> Mike Lynch wrote in message <81jimg$hd5$1...@gxsn.com>...
> >im sorry if there ia anything wrong that i say here but please can you
tell
> >me what the point of taking down the site is? the source is for a bbc a
> >computer which is no longer used. you cant be getting very much money out
> of
> >it and it looks to me like its a childish fight.
> > steve
> >p.s. i again express my aoplogies if anything is wrong.
>
>

Franke

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
to

Matt W <Elit...@ponsanooth0.demon.co.uk> schreef in berichtnieuws
TiKhBCAC...@ponsanooth0.demon.co.uk...

I was just kidding. I don't want to start any wars (not IRL anyway). The
main thing is i agree with Christian : They both should be wiser than this.

Franke

Tom Morton

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
to

Matt Dibb <matt...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:383D51CA...@cwcom.net...

>
>
> Matt W wrote:
> >
> > In article <81jf6h$jgb$2...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>, Tom Morton
<tmorton@yike
> > sstation.freeserve.co.uk> writes
> > >

<SNIP>

> > >> ah a freeserve account.
> > >>
> > >> just whack the CD in. :)
> > >
> > >fsnet.co.uk isn't freeserve!(?) Since when?
> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >Yikes Station: Frontier Elite 2 Website
> > >http://www.yikesstation.freeserve.co.uk
> > >
> > >Tom 'Moretom' Morton
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > since I put the cd in my mates computer yesterday.
> >
> > fsbusiness.co.uk
> > fsnet.co.uk
> > freeserve.co.uk
> >
> > all from the same CD.
>
> Its for people who don't want to look cheap.

Like calling free software 'Open Source'? Pah. Bleh. Pheh.


--
Yikes Station: Frontier Elite 2 Website

http://www.yikesstation.fsnet.co.uk ;-)

Tom 'Moretom' Morton

Mike Lynch

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
to
hows about this for an idea lock em in a room without food and only let them
out when they have sorted it out in the form of a contract

Franke <fsch...@dds.nl> wrote in message
news:81kepl$ong$1...@news.hccnet.nl...

Robert Pfeifer

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
to
On Thu, 25 Nov 1999 18:46:21 GMT, in alt.fan.elite you wrote:
}In article <FRNT574...@frontier.co.uk>,
} "David Braben" <dbrabe...@frontier.co.uk> wrote:
}>
}> Apologies, though - I'm afraid I'm going to have to get this one
}pulled too
}> because of the libellous stuff and the misleading story of the CIX
}website.
}
}Why don't you just let it drop and move on.
}What in particular do you find libellous on the site?
}You posted one version of the CIX website story. Ian has posted his
}version. The only difference in the stories is the viewpoint.
}Can't you just agree to differ and get on with things.

Yes - I for one personally feel this pulling down of webpages is far
worse for your image than anything Ian may ever say.

Plus you're still a credible-looking games developer with a company
and a slick webpage. As far as I know, none of this applies to Ian. I
will, of course, retract this as soon as his mystery project is
released...

I wonder if Louis will put it on his webpage?

Rob

--
"Happiness? Happiness ... is to wake up, on a bright spring morning, after
an exhausting first night spent with a beautiful ... passionate ... multi-
murderess." E-mail: Robert Pfeifer <rp @ i.am>
"Shit, is that all?" WWW: http://i.am/the.god.of.hellfire/

Dylan Smith

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
to
David Braben <dbrabe...@frontier.co.uk> wrote in message
> I also note he's (well - I guess this is probably Ian - but it is not
linked
> to the Ian Bell site which is strange) revived the "who wrote what" stuff.
> It is sad that this means so much to him after this much time, and that he
> feels he needs to mislead people like this, especially the ship designs. I
> suspect he's reading this so he may get a passing pang of guilt.

David - please don't bother pulling his website.

Why?
Well, two things really. The first one is that it will make you eventually
look worse.
The second one is that the easiest way to deal with netloons is to shun
them - they can't stand to be ignored. Trying to shut Bell's site will just
give him more ammunition. To see proof of how shunning works on Netloons,
check out what happened to a certain Robert L. Bass on rec.aviation.* a
couple of years back. He was shunned and has not returned to the
rec.aviation groups since.

If you shut him down again, how long do you think it will be before he moves
his site to a Russian server which you *cannot* shut down? I suspect not
long.

--
Dylan Smith, Houston TX.
http://www.icct.net/~dyls
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"


Franke

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
to

Mike Lynch <hay...@globalnet.co.uk> schreef in berichtnieuws
81lek4$dk6$1...@gxsn.com...

> hows about this for an idea lock em in a room without food and only let
them
> out when they have sorted it out in the form of a contract
>
bla

> >
> > I was just kidding. I don't want to start any wars (not IRL anyway). The
> > main thing is i agree with Christian : They both should be wiser than
> this.
> >
> > Franke
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Seeing how stubborn both of them are I'm afraid this would delay the
development of E4. And we can't have that, can we ?

Franke

Robert Pfeifer

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
to
Through a fractal on a breaking wall, I see "Louis J.M"
<Lou...@BellSouth.Net> write:

}Me and Jeremy Johnson are setting up http://www.afe.org, I've already
}got the layout done and a lot of the content.

Association for Facilities Engineering? How nice for you!

Mike Lynch

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
to
what would happen th the rights if they both died from starvation?

Franke <fsch...@dds.nl> wrote in message

news:81mkjg$ojm$1...@news.hccnet.nl...

anth0ny

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
to

Maybe you should learn how to de-bug programs before pulling web pages that
you dont agree with...
Compared to your company's output, M$ programs are bug free...

David Braben <dbrabe...@frontier.co.uk> wrote in message

news:FRNT574...@frontier.co.uk...


>
> >
>
> No - it was your post that drew my attention to it - I think it only went
up
> last night.
>

> >It's on his "new" site at http://www.elite0.fsnet.co.uk/elite/
>
>

> Thanks for this.


>
> Apologies, though - I'm afraid I'm going to have to get this one pulled
too
> because of the libellous stuff and the misleading story of the CIX
website.
>

> <sigh>


>
> I also note he's (well - I guess this is probably Ian - but it is not
linked
> to the Ian Bell site which is strange) revived the "who wrote what" stuff.
> It is sad that this means so much to him after this much time, and that he
> feels he needs to mislead people like this, especially the ship designs. I
> suspect he's reading this so he may get a passing pang of guilt.
>

> David Braben
> www.frontier.co.uk
>
>
>
>

Louis J.M

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
to
In article <56os3soqq5gukgh8f...@4ax.com> , Robert Pfeifer
<r...@i.am> wrote:

> }> Apologies, though - I'm afraid I'm going to have to get this one
> }pulled too
> }> because of the libellous stuff and the misleading story of the CIX
> }website.
> }

> }Why don't you just let it drop and move on.
> }What in particular do you find libellous on the site?
> }You posted one version of the CIX website story. Ian has posted his
> }version. The only difference in the stories is the viewpoint.
> }Can't you just agree to differ and get on with things.
>
> Yes - I for one personally feel this pulling down of webpages is far
> worse for your image than anything Ian may ever say.
>
> Plus you're still a credible-looking games developer with a company
> and a slick webpage. As far as I know, none of this applies to Ian. I
> will, of course, retract this as soon as his mystery project is
> released...
>
> I wonder if Louis will put it on his webpage?

Me and Jeremy Johnson are setting up http://www.afe.org, I've already


got the layout done and a lot of the content.

I've also been busy with other projects. Like my new XXX flick
starring you.

"Silence Of The Lamb".

This a radical departure from traditional pornography. It's a touching
love story about a cloned sheep named Beatress who evolves conciousness
only to realize nobody understands what she says!

Until she meets a desperate Medical student visiting Scotland who finds a
lot more in Betsy than sex.

It has very sad ending too where she saves his life in a snow-storm, and
he wakes up from a bad hangover only to realize she's dead on top of him.

.-~~-.____ Louis J.M
/ | ' \
( ) O _
\_/-, ,----' // E-Mail: Lou...@BellSouth.net
==== ___// WWW : Coming Soon!
/ \-'~; /~~~(O)----------------------------------------------------
/ __/~| __/ | "I am not a vegetarian because I love animals; I'm a
==(______| (_________| vegetarian because I hate plants." A. Whitney Brown

Brian Kearney

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
to
Mike Lynch wrote:

> what would happen th the rights if they both died from starvation?
>

Well, unless they've said something in their wills, we'd probably have to wait
another fifty years for Elite IV.

>
> Franke <fsch...@dds.nl> wrote in message
> news:81mkjg$ojm$1...@news.hccnet.nl...
> >
> > Mike Lynch <hay...@globalnet.co.uk> schreef in berichtnieuws
> > 81lek4$dk6$1...@gxsn.com...
> > > hows about this for an idea lock em in a room without food and only let
> > them
> > > out when they have sorted it out in the form of a contract
>

<SNIP>

Brian Kearney

unread,
Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
to
Dylan Smith wrote:

> David Braben <dbrabe...@frontier.co.uk> wrote in message

> > I also note he's (well - I guess this is probably Ian - but it is not
> linked
> > to the Ian Bell site which is strange) revived the "who wrote what" stuff.
> > It is sad that this means so much to him after this much time, and that he
> > feels he needs to mislead people like this, especially the ship designs. I
> > suspect he's reading this so he may get a passing pang of guilt.
>

> David - please don't bother pulling his website.
>
> Why?
> Well, two things really. The first one is that it will make you eventually
> look worse.
> The second one is that the easiest way to deal with netloons is to shun
> them - they can't stand to be ignored. Trying to shut Bell's site will just
> give him more ammunition. To see proof of how shunning works on Netloons,
> check out what happened to a certain Robert L. Bass on rec.aviation.* a
> couple of years back. He was shunned and has not returned to the
> rec.aviation groups since.

Considering recent events involving CIX and the shutting down of the Elite
pages, I cant help but feel that Bell already knew what Brabens reaction would
be. If I was a suspicous person, I might believe that Bell was deliberately
being provocative.

Darren Bullivant

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
to
Oops, you forgot to check that the Domain name was available....

D

Louis J.M

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
to
In article <94nt3skfl4je00a6l...@4ax.com> , Robert Pfeifer
<r...@i.am> wrote:

> }Me and Jeremy Johnson are setting up http://www.afe.org, I've already
> }got the layout done and a lot of the content.
>

> Association for Facilities Engineering? How nice for you!

I know. He just told me that URL was taken. Switching it to
http://www.altfanelite.com|org

.-~~-.____ Louis J.M
/ | ' \
( ) O _
\_/-, ,----' // E-Mail: Lou...@BellSouth.net
==== ___// WWW : Coming Soon!
/ \-'~; /~~~(O)----------------------------------------------------

/ __/~| __/ | "If you can't make it good. At least make it look
==(______| (_________| good." - Bill Gates

Mike Lynch

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
to
bugger

Brian Kearney <bri...@crimsonsaint.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:383F29EC...@crimsonsaint.fsnet.co.uk...

Matt Dibb

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
to

"Louis J.M" wrote:

> Me and Jeremy Johnson are setting up http://www.afe.org, I've already
> got the layout done and a lot of the content.


I didn't know you and Jeremy were so into engineering....

John Fred Connors

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
to
On Sat, 27 Nov 1999 00:56:23 +0000,
Brian Kearney <bri...@crimsonsaint.fsnet.co.uk> spake thus unto the void:
He has been planning this, asking a lot of interesting questions in the CIX
legal conference. I think this one is going to run and run as Ian feels
genuinely wronged.

--
World War Three can be averted by adherence to a strictly enforced dress code!
----
John Fred
http://www.yagc.demon.co.uk

Tom Morton

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Nov 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/28/99
to

anth0ny <m...@t15.co.uk> wrote in message
news:81n4uc$q52$1...@lure.pipex.net...

>
> Maybe you should learn how to de-bug programs before pulling web
pages that
> you dont agree with...
> Compared to your company's output, M$ programs are bug free...

Hello again, Ian.

Message has been deleted

Robert Brady

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Dec 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/1/99
to
anth0ny <m...@t15.co.uk> wrote:

>Maybe you should learn how to de-bug programs before pulling web pages that
>you dont agree with...
>Compared to your company's output, M$ programs are bug free...

Um, perhaps you aren't aware, but the released FFE wasn't intended for
release by the developers. It was a beta version. The publishers just went
ahead and released it.

Maybe you should learn some manners.

--
Robert

Paul T R Fisher

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Dec 1, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/1/99
to
Robert Brady wrote in message <3845...@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk>...

>the released FFE wasn't intended for release by the developers.
> It was a beta version. The publishers just went ahead and released it.


That is bollocks. The released version was intended for release by Braben
(though he says he was forced into it legally) and this is proved by the
fact that Braben labelled it Version 1.0 and put the final credits on it and
it does not have the usual BETA VERSION - NOT FOR RELEASE or whatever
plastered across it.

>Maybe you should learn some manners.


Maybe you should learn some facts.


******************
Paul T R Fisher
******************


Mark

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Dec 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/2/99
to
In article <3845...@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk>, rwb...@ecs.soton.ac.uk
says...

> anth0ny <m...@t15.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Maybe you should learn how to de-bug programs before pulling web pages that
> >you dont agree with...
> >Compared to your company's output, M$ programs are bug free...
>
> Um, perhaps you aren't aware, but the released FFE wasn't intended for

> release by the developers. It was a beta version. The publishers just went
> ahead and released it.

LOL.

It was a lot more complex than that. The publisher... let's name them
they are gone... no comeback is going to occur... Gametek, required the
title to be ready for a particular date. The Frontier team were unable to
produce a version of the necessary quality for release but still provided
a version on the given date knowing it would be mastered and released.

Beta would have been set as a milestone somewhat before this "final"
deadline. I would hazard a guess that failure to make a
"final" deliverable on the contracted date would have resulted in severe
financial penalties so the Frontier team provided a version that met the
contract and ultimately resulted in a tremendously problematic release.

It would have been very simple for this version to have BETA or NOT FOR
RELEASE stamped across the title screen but no. It looks like a final. It
is submitted to meet a final deadline knowing production is due to begin
the next day. It must be final.

> Maybe you should learn some manners.

Maybe you ought to learn some facts about computer software production. I
agree the sentiments of the previous poster were somewhat OTT but
unfortunately your defence is lacking in foundation.

As is obvious from recent comments by David Braben he is reluctant to
sign up with a publisher too early for Elite 4 for the very reasons
Frontier came to the sticky end that it did.

Whether we see DB as God or not, we all have a great deal of respect for
him and appreciate the unfortunate position of the FFE release, but, he
and his team did know that the version they provided on that fatal day
would be mastered as per the contract. Whatever they may have hoped for,
didn't happen.

Publishers are very strict on release dates often due to meeting
financial quarters or some other financial milestone as well as
maintaining an image of releasing product on time etc. The reasons are
endless and make sense only to the publishers. Developers do know that
there must be some cut off time or you spend forever improving the game
and never actually release it but these two time scales are often
dissimilar.

Those few fortunate developers who are able to take extra time on a game
in order to fix and improve it are usually developers who are also a
publishing house so have to maintain both priorities within reasonable
limits e.g. Blizzard, Westwood. With FFE, FDL was developer and Gametek
the publisher. A such Gametek maintained a financial stranglehold over
the developer which ultimately leads us to the FFE conclusion. But, the
developer cannot be held completely innocent since they know the schedule
that the publisher works to.

It would have been obvious some time before the release date that the
game was not going to make the deadline. At that point something should
have been done.

FDL won their case against Gametek and good for them. But the case was
not merely around release of a title too early but many issues. It isn't
like Gametek picked up any old CD that had been submitted for a
particular milestone and released it. They released what should have been
the final master maybe fully aware that a patch would be necessary post
release. But, name one PC game that does not have a patch for one reason
or another. They are few and far between if they exist at all.

Even fully patched, FFE is not the game it was meant to be. Hopefully the
Elite Club will have the chance to finally resolve this issue. And
hopefully I didn't just blow any chance I have to be a part of it by
stating these points ;)

Personally I wish FFE had has the extra time but working in the industry
I can see how the whole situation came about.

I do not wish to insult David Braben or any of the FFE team and I am sure
they will see a lot of truth in my sentiments expressed above. I do not
believe that any of the team ever claimed Gametek released a Beta copy of
the game. Maybe they have referred to it as unfinished or not as complete
as they would like etc but both of these are a long way from Beta. A
joking reference to Beta which merely implies it is buggy is still
nowhere near Beta.


--
Mark.

--------------------------------------------------
"It is now beyond any doubt that cigarettes are the
biggest cause of statistics."
--------------------------------------------------

Gary Cotts

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Dec 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/3/99
to
Mark wrote in message ...

>I would hazard a guess that failure to make a
>"final" deliverable on the contracted date would have resulted in severe
>financial penalties so the Frontier team provided a version that met the
>contract and ultimately resulted in a tremendously problematic release.


Yes you are right. I checked in David Braben's contract details posted on
Ian Bell's site and they say


(1) By Clause 3(a), the Defendant agreed to deliver to the
Plaintiff finished machine code master disks of the
Program, free of Bugs and other deficiencies (as
determined by the Plaintiff in its absolute discretion)
as follows:-

(A) Sequel PC version - 31 October 1994

(B) CD PC version - 31 October 1994.

(3) By Clause 3(c), in the event that delivery [as defined
by Clause 1(c) as delivery to the Plaintiff of each of
the items specified in Clause 4(a)] of a master disk of
the Program by the Defendant has not taken place within
6 months of the dates set out under Clause 3(a), then
the royalty rate payable under the Agreement after such
6 month period shall have elapsed will be reduced by
0.5% of the Plaintiff's Net Receipts for every
additional month or part thereof that Delivery is
delayed beyond the extended 6 months grace period,
subject to a maximum decrease of 2.5%.


So if Braben hadn't sent off the bugged masters then he would have lost a
ton of money.

> he and his team did know that the version they provided on that fatal day
>would be mastered as per the contract. Whatever they may have hoped for,
>didn't happen.

Yes they hoped that they'd get away with a bugged release just like lots of
other developers in the PC games scene. But Braben had already used up his
luck with Frontier so gamers would not stand a second bugged game.

>It would have been obvious some time before the release date that the
>game was not going to make the deadline. At that point something should
>have been done.


The contract shows Braben got an extra six months to get it sorted.

>FDL won their case against Gametek and good for them.

Well I'm not sure whether to beleive that. I mean how can someone win a
contract against a company that doesn't exist any more. And why hasn't
Braben given the full story that he promised alt.fan.elite he would give
when the legal stuff was settled.

>Even fully patched, FFE is not the game it was meant to be. Hopefully the
>Elite Club will have the chance to finally resolve this issue. And
>hopefully I didn't just blow any chance I have to be a part of it by
>stating these points ;)


No because as soon as the FFE sources are out they will copied all over the
net and modified by any person who wants to. Braben won't be able to stop it
in the same way he couldn't stop Bell from putting out the Elite games and
sources. Welcome to the internet!!!

--
Gary

Andrew R. Gillett

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Dec 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/4/99
to
In alt.fan.elite, Gary Cotts wrote:
> No because as soon as the FFE sources are out they will copied all over the
> net and modified by any person who wants to. Braben won't be able to stop it
> in the same way he couldn't stop Bell from putting out the Elite games and
> sources. Welcome to the internet!!!

The sources will only be made available to certain members of the Elite
Club - they won't be freely downloadable by everyone.

--
Andrew Gillett http://argnet.fatal-design.com/ ICQ: See homepage
If the baby won't drink raw milk, boil it.

Laura

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Dec 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/5/99
to

Mark wrote:

>But, name one PC game that does not have a patch for one reason
>or another. They are few and far between if they exist at all.


That is true for PC games nowadays, and it is a _sad_ development!
At the time FFE was released, patches weren't all that common though, and
the internet was just getting started.
The standard, that patches are nearly always needed for a new PC release is
due to the "faster, cheaper, better" attitude of the publishers - and you
can see what good such an attitude did the Mars Polar Lander project...
Elite never needed a patch - it was finished. The publishers had not become
greedy yet.

Laura

Matt Davis

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Dec 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/5/99
to
Laura wrote:

> That is true for PC games nowadays, and it is a _sad_ development!
> At the time FFE was released, patches weren't all that common though, and
> the internet was just getting started.
> The standard, that patches are nearly always needed for a new PC release is
> due to the "faster, cheaper, better" attitude of the publishers - and you
> can see what good such an attitude did the Mars Polar Lander project...
> Elite never needed a patch - it was finished. The publishers had not become
> greedy yet.

What happens when console games need patching? It doesn't seem to happen very
often, so I can only assume that when it does, they recall all old stock and
replace it, and offer replacements to people who've bought it. I can't think of
any other way about it.

--
Cheers

Matt
---


Christian

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Dec 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/5/99
to
In article <82cnkc$1q3v$2...@news.cybercity.dk>,

"Laura" <la...@secret.dk> wrote:
> Elite never needed a patch - it was finished.

That's not strictly true. There were numerous bugs in the original
Acorn versions. They were only minor but some were annoying, like not
being able do a Galactic Hyperspace on the Electron version (well you
could but you had to press about six different keys repeatedly and wave
a dead chicken at it).

AFAIK there were patched versions of the game released as well. The
early disk version did haven't any asteroids I seem to remember.

All the known bugs in the 6502 code were ironed out when Bell & Braben
did the C64 port.

The MSX, Amiga and Atari versions have bugs as well. The planet info
is completely wrong. The bug was actually introduced into the MSX
version which the Amiga and Atari versions were based upon.

The Amstrad and Speccy versions aren't quite right either. The ship
drawing routines are definately suspect.

Christian.
________
Elite - The New Kind
The Reverse Engineered Source To Elite.
http://home.clara.net/cjpinder


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Laura

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Dec 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/5/99
to

Matt Davis wrote:

>What happens when console games need patching? It doesn't seem to happen
very
>often, so I can only assume that when it does, they recall all old stock
and
>replace it, and offer replacements to people who've bought it. I can't
think of
>any other way about it.


I suppose the publishers know that there is no cheap and easy way to patch a
console game, so they probably play-test console games much more thoroughly
than PC games.

Laura

Mark

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Dec 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/5/99
to
In article <384A2595...@csv.warwick.ac.uk>, ma...@csv.warwick.ac.uk
says...

> Laura wrote:
>
> > That is true for PC games nowadays, and it is a _sad_ development!
> > At the time FFE was released, patches weren't all that common though, and
> > the internet was just getting started.

Since when was the Internet the sole source of the patch. Patches have
been issued on floppy disk since PC gaming first began. All the FFE
patches were released on Floppy Disk by Gametek. The Internet was not
considered the primary source for the patch. Also before the Internet we
has BBS systems etc which allowed the download of patches among other
things.

I think you will find that patches are not as new as you think. Before
the advent of Win9x and DirectX, many games had to have patches for
peculiar hardware configurations unavailable to the developer. What is a
device driver update if not a "patch". Look how often the SB16 had new
DOS drivers issued. Even the BIOS gets patched.

Finally look at the sheer quantity of games available for the PC compared
to the earlier days. Add to this the lack of adequate quality control and
you have the world of PC gaming.

Console games have some advantages over PCs.

1) Hardware is known and (almost) always guaranteed to be the same on all
versions of the console. If it works on one PSX it works on them all. Not
so with the PC.

2) An additional QA test performed by the console manufacturer with
dedicated hardware level test hardware to identify possible problems
between the software and hardware as well as an "impartial" look at the
game itself. The PC relies on the developers and publishers having
a sufficient QA cycle and possibly some third party test for
compatibility. No real standards for PC games.

3) A number of restrictions on what the developer can and can't do with
the hardware. On the PC anything goes.

> > The standard, that patches are nearly always needed for a new PC release is
> > due to the "faster, cheaper, better" attitude of the publishers - and you
> > can see what good such an attitude did the Mars Polar Lander project...
> > Elite never needed a patch - it was finished. The publishers had not become
> > greedy yet.
>

> What happens when console games need patching? It doesn't seem to happen very
> often, so I can only assume that when it does, they recall all old stock and
> replace it, and offer replacements to people who've bought it. I can't think of
> any other way about it.

This is often true. They will usually re issue the cartridge or CD and
try to keep it quiet rather than do a full recall. If you contact the
publisher they will generally swap out the disk/cart.

It does happen much more than you would think but is well hidden by
publishers and console manufacturers for obvious reasons.

Lars Haugseth

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Dec 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/5/99
to

Mark <ma...@mhetherington.demon.removethis.co.uk> writes:

> In article <384A2595...@csv.warwick.ac.uk>, ma...@csv.warwick.ac.uk
> says...
> > Laura wrote:
> >
> > > That is true for PC games nowadays, and it is a _sad_ development!
> > > At the time FFE was released, patches weren't all that common though, and
> > > the internet was just getting started.
>
> Since when was the Internet the sole source of the patch. Patches have
> been issued on floppy disk since PC gaming first began. All the FFE
> patches were released on Floppy Disk by Gametek. The Internet was not
> considered the primary source for the patch. Also before the Internet we
> has BBS systems etc which allowed the download of patches among other
> things.

<pedant>
Before the Internet? I think you'll find that the Internet
is older than the PC.
</pedant>

--
Lars / email:larshau \
Haugseth \ @candleweb.no /

Mark

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Dec 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/5/99
to
In article <ug0xh8...@candleweb.no>, see.si...@email.invalid
says...

<pedant>
Before the Internet? Taken in context you will find this correct.
... before the Internet [was used as a source for downloading patches] we
had ...
</pedant>

:P

--
Mark.

Home of the FFE bug list
http://www.mhetherington.demon.co.uk/elite/
To reply by email remove "removethis." from my reply address

John Fred Connors

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Dec 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/5/99
to
On 05 Dec 1999 21:07:04 +0100,
Lars Haugseth <see.si...@email.invalid> spake thus unto the void:
>
<SNIPPUS MAXIMUS>

>
><pedant>
>Before the Internet? I think you'll find that the Internet
>is older than the PC.
></pedant>
>
<mega-pedant>
Depends. If you count ARPAnet as "the Internet", I think you
will find that the reverse is true.
</mega-pedant>

>--
>Lars / email:larshau \
>Haugseth \ @candleweb.no /


--
Hey, waiter! I want a NEW SHIRT and a PONY TAIL with lemon sauce!

Graham 'Jades' Thurlwell

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Dec 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/6/99
to
John Fred Connors wrote:
>
> On 05 Dec 1999 21:07:04 +0100,
> Lars Haugseth <see.si...@email.invalid> spake thus unto the void:
> >
> <SNIPPUS MAXIMUS>
> >
> ><pedant>
> >Before the Internet? I think you'll find that the Internet
> >is older than the PC.
> ></pedant>
> >
> <mega-pedant>
> Depends. If you count ARPAnet as "the Internet", I think you
> will find that the reverse is true.
> </mega-pedant>

IIRC, ARPAnet came out before the IBM PC was released.
Of course, if we really wanted to be pendantic,
it could be argued that PC does not necessarily
mean IBM PC and compatibles.

Lars Haugseth

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Dec 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/6/99
to

* jo...@yagc.demon.co.uk (John Fred Connors)

|
| On 05 Dec 1999 21:07:04 +0100,
| Lars Haugseth <see.si...@email.invalid> spake thus unto the void:
| >
| <SNIPPUS MAXIMUS>
| >
| ><pedant>
| >Before the Internet? I think you'll find that the Internet
| >is older than the PC.
| ></pedant>
| >
| <mega-pedant>
| Depends. If you count ARPAnet as "the Internet", I think you
| will find that the reverse is true.
| </mega-pedant>

Did you forget a "don't" in there somewhere?

ARPAnet went operative in late 1969.

AFAIK the first computer to be called a "personal computer"
was the MITS Altair 8800, released in 1975.

ARPAnet changed name to Internet in 1984.

Adam Burrows

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Dec 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/6/99
to
On the 06-Dec-99, a layman by the name of "Lars Haugseth" did enscribe unto stone:

...And was only open to universities and large institutions, by 1990 anyone
could join, but it was only used by tech-heads and UNIX geeks because there
were no "point and click" web browsers until 1993...

--
Kind regards,

Adam Burrows
Email: <aym...@uk2.net>
ICQ: 35227475
Homepage: <http://homepages.tesco.net/~burrows.ray/adamb/>
Mailing list: <http://www.egroups.com/group/fe2/fullinfo.html>

Lars Haugseth

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Dec 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/7/99
to

* Adam Burrows <aym...@uk2.nospam> wrote:
|
| On the 06-Dec-99, a layman by the name of "Lars Haugseth" did
| enscribe unto stone:

That's Commander Haugseth to you, mister. ;)

| > Did you forget a "don't" in there somewhere?
| >
| > ARPAnet went operative in late 1969.
| >
| > AFAIK the first computer to be called a "personal computer"
| > was the MITS Altair 8800, released in 1975.
| >
| > ARPAnet changed name to Internet in 1984.
|
| ...And was only open to universities and large institutions, by 1990
| anyone could join, but it was only used by tech-heads and UNIX geeks
| because there were no "point and click" web browsers until 1993...

Yes, those were the days...

Philip J Young

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Dec 7, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/7/99
to
Tell me, you do know that some of your comments are libellious, I trust?

Gary Cotts <gary...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:944263198.853....@news.in2home.co.uk...

> No because as soon as the FFE sources are out they will copied all over
the
> net and modified by any person who wants to. Braben won't be able to stop
it
> in the same way he couldn't stop Bell from putting out the Elite games and
> sources. Welcome to the internet!!!
>

> --
> Gary
>
>

Robert Pfeifer

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Dec 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/8/99
to
Through a fractal on a breaking wall, I see Lars Haugseth
<see.si...@email.invalid> write:

Hey, it still _is_ September 1993.

Rob

--
"Happiness? Happiness ... is to wake up, on a bright spring morning, after
an exhausting first night spent with a beautiful ... passionate ... multi-
murderess." E-mail: Robert Pfeifer <rp @ i.am>
"Shit, is that all?" WWW: http://i.am/the.god.of.hellfire/

Lars Haugseth

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Dec 8, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/8/99
to

* Robert Pfeifer <r...@i.am>

|
| Through a fractal on a breaking wall, I see Lars Haugseth
| <see.si...@email.invalid> write:
|
| }Yes, those were the days...
|
| Hey, it still _is_ September 1993.

Maybe, but I'm talking pre 1990 here. :)

Louis J.M

unread,
Dec 9, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/9/99
to
In article <5rus4s088l4li7sm4...@4ax.com> , Robert Pfeifer
<r...@i.am> wrote:

>
> }Yes, those were the days...
>
> Hey, it still _is_ September 1993.

Eh, I wish...

.-~~-.____ Louis J.M
/ | ' \
( ) O _
\_/-, ,----' // E-Mail: Lou...@BellSouth.net
==== ___// WWW : Coming Soon!
/ \-'~; /~~~(O)----------------------------------------------------
/ __/~| __/ | "Drive defensively - buy a tank."
==(______| (_________|

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