Beldin
Walter de Bruin
It's a prerogative of the young to ask questions about things, so I have
yet another one to put before you all:
Why did Beldin see it fit to change himself and Velda into hawks at the end
of SOK, 'gone, never to return'? I never saw the reason for that, try
though I might. Okay, he loves to fly and Velda adores him, because he can,
but surely, they could just as well have stayed in the Vale?
--
TTFN,
Walter
(w...@worldonline.nl)
It ain't much if it ain't Dutch
Elenia
Wouldn't you rather be alone to enjoy each other, after you found the
person who loves you as much as you love them...falts and all!!!! ???
Elenia :)
On 5
Cho-Hag
Walter de Bruin wrote:
> Why did Beldin see it fit to change himself and Vella into hawks at the end
> of SOK, 'gone, never to return'? I never saw the reason for that, try
> but surely, they could just as well have stayed in the Vale?
Well, Beldin's a romantic and a bit soppy at heart. We see this in how he
wanted to build an absolutely beautiful tower, how he cried when Aldur
tried to convince him to accept that his brothers loved him, and how he
resurrected the Wacite brogue for the sake of the past, among other
incidents. Now, I'd say that all that flying around in hawk-form made him
at least part bird (remember how forms influence thought?). I'm not sure,
but quite probably more of his life was spent in hawk-form than human.
Remembering that (1) he was a romantic at heart and (2) the hawk-form
dominated his thinking, "flying away, never to return" would be the course
of action most in line with what he would have wanted.
--
::::::::: -Cho-Hag, Chief of the Clan-Chiefs of Algaria and AFE UN
## <) ## Sec-Gen nominator, is usually out of the Stronghold, but
##A/| )## can be reached @ nath...@mbox2.CUT.THIS.OUT.singnet.com.sg
## _\) ## "Usenet is wonderful. It enables people on opposite sides
## > ## of the globe to miscommunicate, faster than ever before."
\/\/V\/\/
Zubrette
Walter de Bruin dropped by the barn:
> Why did Beldin see it fit to change himself and Velda into hawks at the end
> of SOK, 'gone, never to return'? I never saw the reason for that, try
> though I might. Okay, he loves to fly and Velda adores him, because he can,
> but surely, they could just as well have stayed in the Vale?
It was time for Beldin to enjoy life away from his role in the LP.
Being a blue banded hawk was his ultimate joy.
He was beautiful, powerful, awesome... all those things that
most people could not see in him, as he ordinarily was.
Beldin chose beauty firstly for himself and then for Vella.
They set off to explore what that meant - part of that
would be continuing the complete openness Vella offered
Beldin as she handed over her knives.
The Vale was a place for growth and study and fulfillment.
Beldin completed his tasks.
It was time to explore his own future.
--
Zubrette
... Free advice is seldom cheap (Ferengi RoA59)
Walter de Bruin
Cho-Hag <cho...@stronghold.algaria.gov> schreef in artikel
<352A17A9...@stronghold.algaria.gov>...
> Well, Beldin's a romantic and a bit soppy at heart. We see this in how he
> wanted to build an absolutely beautiful tower, how he cried when Aldur
> tried to convince him to accept that his brothers loved him, and how he
> resurrected the Wacite brogue for the sake of the past, among other
> incidents. Now, I'd say that all that flying around in hawk-form made him
> at least part bird (remember how forms influence thought?). I'm not sure,
> but quite probably more of his life was spent in hawk-form than human.
> Remembering that (1) he was a romantic at heart and (2) the hawk-form
> dominated his thinking, "flying away, never to return" would be the
course
> of action most in line with what he would have wanted.
I'm still not convinced. I'm still saying, he went overboard with it. Even
if he is a romantic as you think him to be (I'd also like to remember you
that he had some _very_ unsavory habitsd, not to mention the ideas he had
for some of their enemies), I don't think becoming a hawk and never
returning to his friends again. I think it's rather unfair, also bearing in
mind, that one of his favourite pastimes is nagging Belgarath. Furthermore:
He is described by many as 'gentle Beldin'. Well, I don't think it to be
very gentle to leave the people you've loved for about 6,500 years.
Walter de Bruin
Elenia <e1am...@mailbox.uq.edu.au> schreef in artikel
<Pine.OSF.3.95.98040...@dingo.cc.uq.edu.au>...
> Wouldn't you rather be alone to enjoy each other, after you found the
> person who loves you as much as you love them...falts and all!!!! ???
Well, yes. But I think Beldin's carrying it to extremes. Belgarath has
refound his true love, hasn't he? Polgara has found hers, hasn't she? Yet
they don't run off like that!
Beldin
Walter de Bruin quoth:
>Why did Beldin see it fit to change himself and Velda into hawks at the end
>of SOK, 'gone, never to return'?
It is mentioned many times that Beldin hates his deformed body. Vella
was not attracted to his outer form, but to the inner. She was struck
by his ability to fly.
Beldin gave her the realization of her dreams by making it so that she
could fly with him. He transformed himself because as a hawk, he would
not be ugly to her. His tasks were completed, and he wished to enjoy
something he had never dared to dream could be his . . . love.
My two cent's worth.
Beldin
"Aren't you depriving some village of an idiot?"
To reply via email write to: braymiller at mindspring dot com
Dom Wynn
Walter de Bruin wrote:
>
> > Wouldn't you rather be alone to enjoy each other, after you found the
> > person who loves you as much as you love them...falts and all!!!! ???
>
> Well, yes. But I think Beldin's carrying it to extremes. Belgarath has
> refound his true love, hasn't he? Polgara has found hers, hasn't she? Yet
> they don't run off like that!
>
> --
> TTFN,
I think you may be underestimating the complexity of Beldin. The point
is that what is applicable to Grat & Pol is not the same for him
ie
1) he has to live several thousand years in a form he despises
2) Subjected to universal spite due to form
3) dedicates his long life to a God without reward and has sacraficed
much for friends (a millenia or so sitting on a mountain for a
start...bringing up Pol for seconds :)
4) unable to enter into any meaningful relationship with other people
(no time, ugly as sin)
5) endowed with powers beyond imagining
6) endowed with fantastic creativity
Mix these things togther and then add
1) love of hawk form
2) Finds relationship with equal
3) Task is now done - chance to do what *he* wants to do
When you think about it what ties him to the rest of humanity is very
little indeed. He does not love it/feel tied to by duty it like Grat
seems to. Plus he finally gets a 'life': a girlfriend, more spare time
etc etc.
Retirement to a cottage in the vale is not his style, and anywhere else
he would be bound by the spite that is felt by humanity for him...so he
cuts and runs, and so solves the problem...
Dom
Daniel Peters
The small spark that is me got ignited by the fiery remarks of
Walter de Bruin, who uttered on 8 Apr 1998 17:26:27 GMT the following:
[Snip Beldin 'gone, never to return']
I never did read this line all so final, as most of you seem to.
I'd rather interpret that "never to return" as "not for a long long
time" - which sounds not half as good in style of writing. I really
don't believe, that Beldin and Vella are going to spend the next
centuries in the form of a hawk, never visiting their friends.
What reminds me: Is Vella going to have a prolonged life-span
now? I almost expect her to live beyond the normal mortal length of
life, but Vella is no sorceress after all, but perhaps Beldin is going
to do something about it? Or Vella _is_ a latent sorceress and discovers
her talent through the proximity with Beldin?
Daniel
Ce'Nedra
Ce'Nedra touched her fingers to her amulet, and heard Dom Wynn
<domini...@blackwell.co.uk> say:
>I think you may be underestimating the complexity of Beldin. The point
>is that what is applicable to Grat & Pol is not the same for him
>
>ie
>
>1) he has to live several thousand years in a form he despises
>2) Subjected to universal spite due to form
..... he can change his form anytime....
>3) dedicates his long life to a God without reward and has sacraficed
>much for friends (a millenia or so sitting on a mountain for a
>start...bringing up Pol for seconds :)
>4) unable to enter into any meaningful relationship with other people
>(no time, ugly as sin)
....could've changed the latter....
>5) endowed with powers beyond imagining
So were Grat and Pol......
--
Ce'Nedra - Queen of the World, Heart of the Wolf, Guardian of AFE.
"The baths in Tol Honeth are open to all, and athletic contests are always
conducted without clothing. Just last summer, I myself ran against a dozen
other girls in the Imperial Stadium. The spectators were *most* appreciative."
Elenia
Well I was going to reply and extend upon my first response to this
question but Dom Wynn has said it better than I could have!!
Elenia :)
On Thu, 9 Apr
1998, Dom Wynn wrote:
> Walter de Bruin wrote:
> >
> > > Wouldn't you rather be alone to enjoy each other, after you found the
> > > person who loves you as much as you love them...falts and all!!!! ???
> >
> > Well, yes. But I think Beldin's carrying it to extremes. Belgarath has
> > refound his true love, hasn't he? Polgara has found hers, hasn't she? Yet
> > they don't run off like that!
> >
> > --
> > TTFN,
>
> I think you may be underestimating the complexity of Beldin. The point
> is that what is applicable to Grat & Pol is not the same for him
>
> ie
>
> 1) he has to live several thousand years in a form he despises
> 2) Subjected to universal spite due to form
> 3) dedicates his long life to a God without reward and has sacraficed
> much for friends (a millenia or so sitting on a mountain for a
> start...bringing up Pol for seconds :)
> 4) unable to enter into any meaningful relationship with other people
> (no time, ugly as sin)
> 5) endowed with powers beyond imagining
Beldin
Daniel Peters, aka "sparky" wrote:
> What reminds me: Is Vella going to have a prolonged life-span
>now? I almost expect her to live beyond the normal mortal length of
>life, but Vella is no sorceress after all, but perhaps Beldin is going
>to do something about it? Or Vella _is_ a latent sorceress and discovers
>her talent through the proximity with Beldin?
I think that the transformation is permanent. I do not think Vella
would be live a prolonged life, and the hope of "latent" talent is too
corny.
I think part of the reason for the transformation is so that Beldin
and Vella are now equals, in every sense. They will live equally long
as hawks and die after a normal life span.
Any other arrangement of things would be too contrived, IMO.
Killane
Dom Wynn wrote:
> 1) he has to live several thousand years in a form he despises
> 2) Subjected to universal spite due to form
> 3) dedicates his long life to a God without reward and has sacraficed
> much for friends (a millenia or so sitting on a mountain for a
> start...bringing up Pol for seconds :)
> 4) unable to enter into any meaningful relationship with other people
> (no time, ugly as sin)
> 5) endowed with powers beyond imagining
> 6) endowed with fantastic creativity
>
> Mix these things togther and then add
>
> 1) love of hawk form
> 2) Finds relationship with equal
> 3) Task is now done - chance to do what *he* wants to do
>
>
> Dom
yeah, I think your explaination is the best. makes sense.
Also, in response to another post:
Beldin's is a different story than either Pol's or Grat's
they have both had "lives" even though they were doing their serivice to the
world. Grat had a family of sorts, Pol was always out and about (in
civilization) and even early on (Pts spoiler (sorry!):) had meaningful
relationships with men. not so with Beldin. Even Beltira/kira weren't the same.
I get the feeling that they don't care to live out their lives as bachellors in
the Vale. Beldin does though, he wants out.
And: I think Pol or someone would have discovered an ability in Vella. Also ,
as someone said: it's too corny.
--responding to several posts at once --Killane
Walter de Bruin
Beldin <bel...@aldur.net> schreef in artikel
<352bf2e2...@news.mindspring.com>...
> Walter de Bruin quoth:
Never more <g>.
Or to parafrase Terry Pratchett about the raven, who talks to Susan
Sto'Lat:
'Never call him Quoth.' <g>
>
> >Why did Beldin see it fit to change himself and Velda into hawks at the
end
> >of SOK, 'gone, never to return'?
>
> It is mentioned many times that Beldin hates his deformed body. Vella
_Sorceress of Darshiva_ (Corgi edition 1990), p.134:
'You're an ugly one, aren't you?' the man on the floor [Senji] said.
'You're no beauty yourself.' [Beldin]
'I can live with it.' [Senji]
'So can I.' [Beldin]
> was not attracted to his outer form, but to the inner. She was struck
> by his ability to fly.
I always had a problem with that. Can a relationship be based on that?
> Beldin gave her the realization of her dreams by making it so that she
> could fly with him.
But for how long? She's not immortal, you know.
Walter de Bruin
Dom Wynn <domini...@blackwell.co.uk> schreef in artikel
<352C893F...@blackwell.co.uk>...
> I think you may be underestimating the complexity of Beldin. The point
> is that what is applicable to Grat & Pol is not the same for him
Maybe.
>
> ie
ie? <g>
>
> 1) he has to live several thousand years in a form he despises
Granted. Yet, to quote Polgara (or Belgarath, I can't remember):
'He despises his form, so he ignores it.'
> 2) Subjected to universal spite due to form
Bull. That happened when he was a boy. The moment he entered Aldur's
service, that stopped. His brothers never spited him and when he went out
into the world he even _used_ his deformity to blend right in.
'People can't see behind the hump on my back.'
> 3) dedicates his long life to a God without reward and has sacraficed
'Scuse me? Without reward? I think being able to turn mountains inside out,
change shape and live for a few thousand years is _quite_ rewarding.
> much for friends (a millenia or so sitting on a mountain for a
> start...bringing up Pol for seconds :)
He _chose_ to sit on that mountain. Besides, it gave him a chance to work
things out (like why 2 and 2 make 4 or why female sorcerers work
differently).
> 4) unable to enter into any meaningful relationship with other people
> (no time, ugly as sin)
I wouldn't call his relationship with the other sorcerers (or Aldur)
unmeaningful, do you?
> 5) endowed with powers beyond imagining
So?
> 6) endowed with fantastic creativity
So?
>
> Mix these things togther and then add
>
> 1) love of hawk form
> 2) Finds relationship with equal
Equal? I don't see Velda change shape. HE changes it FOR her! besides,
ddings quite smoothly glosses over Velda's life expectancy. Wouldn't on
Velda apply what Belgarath says to Polgara about Ontrose?
'He'll be dead, before you can turn around twice.'
> 3) Task is now done - chance to do what *he* wants to do
What IS beldin's task, really? I always had some problems with it. Cyradis
doesn't mention him when she comes to tell everyone what to do. Yet Beldin
manages to wriggle into the company and he's around until the end!
>
> When you think about it what ties him to the rest of humanity is very
> little indeed. He does not love it/feel tied to by duty it like Grat
> seems to. Plus he finally gets a 'life': a girlfriend, more spare time
> etc etc.
I agree on 'the rest of humanity'. But he managed to live with that for
over 6,000 years without becoming any less by it.
>
> Retirement to a cottage in the vale is not his style, and anywhere else
Okay. I don't deny him his right to change form, but I do choke on the line
'And then they were gone, never again to return.' SoK, p. 353.
> he would be bound by the spite that is felt by humanity for him...so he
> cuts and runs, and so solves the problem...
I don't think running solves a problem. And I don't see Beldin as someone
who takes the short and easy road out of a problem, either.
Walter de Bruin
Zubrette <zubr...@sagitta.demon.co.uk> schreef in artikel
<7bc1493348%zubr...@sagitta.demon.co.uk>...
> Walter de Bruin dropped by the barn:
I was hoping for a roll in the hay, but a meaningful discussion will do ;-)
>
> > Why did Beldin see it fit to change himself and Velda into hawks at the
end
> > of SOK, 'gone, never to return'? I never saw the reason for that, try
> > though I might. Okay, he loves to fly and Velda adores him, because he
can,
> > but surely, they could just as well have stayed in the Vale?
>
> It was time for Beldin to enjoy life away from his role in the LP.
> Being a blue banded hawk was his ultimate joy.
Okay. But nagging Belgarath came a close second, I'd say.
> He was beautiful, powerful, awesome... all those things that
> most people could not see in him, as he ordinarily was.
Yet people who managed to look past his exterior DID see that. Besides,
people who have dealings with Beldin never ever show any sign of spite.
Delvo, f.i., gets very well along, and even Senji only remarks in passing
'My, you're an ugly one.' Beldin then replies along the lines of 'I can
live with it.'
>
> Beldin chose beauty firstly for himself and then for Vella.
No. Vella made the choice for herself. She _chose_ Beldin as hetr mate,
_because_ he could fly.
> They set off to explore what that meant - part of that
> would be continuing the complete openness Vella offered
> Beldin as she handed over her knives.
Okay. But I know I would like that part more, if Vella would remain her own
form. ;-)
>
> The Vale was a place for growth and study and fulfillment.
> Beldin completed his tasks.
> It was time to explore his own future.
Okay. But why like this? And why 'never again to return'? He didn't have to
_live_ in the Vale, but would visiting every now and then hurt that much?
Walter de Bruin
> I think part of the reason for the transformation is so that Beldin
> and Vella are now equals, in every sense. They will live equally long
> as hawks and die after a normal life span.
So you think that just because Beldin changed into a hawk, his lifespan
will diminish equally? Then what about Poledra who walked around as a wolf
for over 1,000 years, then changed into an owl and walked around for
another x-thousand years?
Walter de Bruin
Daniel Peters <pet...@cip.chemie.uni-hamburg.de> schreef in artikel
<352e170...@news.uni-hamburg.de>...
> [Snip Beldin 'gone, never to return']
>
> I never did read this line all so final, as most of you seem to.
I think you can't get any more final than 'never again to return'.
> I'd rather interpret that "never to return" as "not for a long long
> time" - which sounds not half as good in style of writing. I really
That's not Eddings' style, though. he writes what he means (most of the
time).
> don't believe, that Beldin and Vella are going to spend the next
> centuries in the form of a hawk, never visiting their friends.
That's how I read that line. Moreover, I think you get hints of that in
Beldin's conversation just before he leaves. He says Durnik's there to take
over and he rememebers Belgarath, that 'it's been fun.'
> What reminds me: Is Vella going to have a prolonged life-span
> now? I almost expect her to live beyond the normal mortal length of
To quote Belgarath in BtS:
'It may _seem_ longer, though.' <g>
Walter de Bruin
Ce'Nedra <Ce'Ne...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk> schreef in artikel
<JnzfvBA8...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk>...
> >1) he has to live several thousand years in a form he despises
> He doesn't *have* to....
>
> >2) Subjected to universal spite due to form
> ..... he can change his form anytime....
>
> >3) dedicates his long life to a God without reward and has sacraficed
> >much for friends (a millenia or so sitting on a mountain for a
> >start...bringing up Pol for seconds :)
> >4) unable to enter into any meaningful relationship with other people
> >(no time, ugly as sin)
> ....could've changed the latter....
>
> >5) endowed with powers beyond imagining
> So were Grat and Pol......
Do I sense a little bit of agreement with me here? I do hope so, especially
from one so beautiful.. :-)
Michael Bahr
Daniel Peters wrote:
> What reminds me: Is Vella going to have a prolonged life-span
> now? I almost expect her to live beyond the normal mortal length of
> to do something about it? Or Vella _is_ a latent sorceress and discovers> her talent through the proximity with Beldin?
Well, there are a few points in the book that connect to this:
1. Eriond says he learned that he had the talent for sorcery because
being around sorcerers for so long taught him all he needed to know
(assumedly by lifting the info from their minds). OK, so Eriond was a
God, and Vella isn't. The principle is still sound because Eriond still
had to learn the practice somehow. Even Eddie Van Halen couldn't work
his magic until he learned how to play the guitar. If Vella is around
Beldin long enough, she's liable to learn how to focus her will.
2. PTS tells us that sorcerers can extend lifespans some finite amount
by will alone. Pol did this with Beldaran for a time but Beldaran was
already as good as dead. Vella being in perfect health might make it an
easier job for Beldin to do, if necessary.
3. Eriond probably has things taken care of, since it's the sort of
thing he would do.
4. The Necessity rewards those who do what it asks of them. Beldin and
Vella are each others' rewards. I doubt the Necessity would make such a
horrendous slave of Beldin for millenia without giving him SOME playtime
after the victory party was over. For Vella's part, we know the
Necessity probably did some "tampering" by instilling in her the awe of
flight, and once she helped out in her own way, she got what she
"wanted".
Any, all, or none of these things might apply. Just speculation and
such.
--
- Mike Bahr - Prism Records
- d u r n i k @ g o o d n e t . c o m
- http://www.goodnet.com/~durnik/
Beldin
Ce'Nedra, while brushing her hair, mused:
>>1) he has to live several thousand years in a form he despises
>He doesn't *have* to....
>>2) Subjected to universal spite due to form
>..... he can change his form anytime....
>>4) unable to enter into any meaningful relationship with other people
>>(no time, ugly as sin)
>....could've changed the latter....
On what do you base this? His guise as Feldegast? Was that not simply
an illusion? I don't think he could make any permanent physical
alterations. If that were the case, then why would he not have done
so? Would not the grolims have used such an ability to transform
themselves into Cary Grant look-alikes? They were possessed of the
vanity to do so, so why didn't they? I think it was because they could
not alter their own physical appearance in such a fashion. If it is a
question of power, some of the grolims had power to rival that of
Belgarath and Beldin.
Beldin
"Aren't you depriving some village somewhere of an idiot?"
To reply via e-mail:
Beldin
Walter de Bruin weaving a tapestry of logic hit a snarl and said:
>>Beldin <bel...@aldur.net> schreef in artikel
>> I think part of the reason for the transformation is so that Beldin
>> and Vella are now equals, in every sense. They will live equally long
>> as hawks and die after a normal life span.
>So you think that just because Beldin changed into a hawk, his lifespan
>will diminish equally? Then what about Poledra who walked around as a wolf
>for over 1,000 years, then changed into an owl and walked around for
>another x-thousand years?
I think there is a hole in your reasoning here. If he remains as he
is, he will outlive Vella unless he wills himself out of existence. I
believe he assumed the form of the hawk and took on its traits
completely. Belgarath warned Garion of the danger of remaining in the
form of the wolf for too long, that the mind of the animal might
eventually overwhelm the human aspect, and he'd become a wolf indeed.
The argument around Poledra is invalidated because of the task she had
before her. She was sustained and protected by UL. Hers is a unique
case.
What Beldin did was to sacrifice his longevity and his humanity to be
with the desire of his heart.
Beldin
"Aren't you depriving some village of an idiot?"
To reply via email write to: braymiller at mindspring dot com
Castellan
Dom Wynn wrote in message
>I think you may be underestimating the complexity of Beldin. The point
>is that what is applicable to Grat & Pol is not the same for him
>
not destined for a 'normal fate' (SoD Chapter 1), and since she turns
herself into a totally new breed of hawk (remember Beldin's is his own
creation, and hers is differed by it's lavender band), who is to say what
the life expectancy of their new breed is?
D&LE are of course, which really brings us to the point that it's Beldin's
and Vella's choice, good luck to 'em :-)
Ce'Nedra
Ce'Nedra touched her fingers to her amulet, and heard Walter de Bruin
<w...@worldonline.nl> say:
>> >1) he has to live several thousand years in a form he despises
>> He doesn't *have* to....
>> >2) Subjected to universal spite due to form
>> ..... he can change his form anytime....
>> >much for friends (a millenia or so sitting on a mountain for a
>> >start...bringing up Pol for seconds :)
>> >(no time, ugly as sin)
>> ....could've changed the latter....
>> So were Grat and Pol......
>
>Do I sense a little bit of agreement with me here? I do hope so, especially
>from one so beautiful.. :-)
>
not really agreeing or disagreeing. What was your first point?
[flicks through newsgroup]
That Beldin shouldn't have left like that?
Hmmm, I can see both sides. (the curse of being a Libra, able to argue
for both sides of an arguement) ;)
On one hand, I can see why he did it. Remember how Belgarath felt when
he first met Poledra (before she got her name) ? He was tempted to spend
his life as a wolf with her, all that stuff about the joys of puppies
and hunting with a faithful mate..
Beldin has spent a fair bit of time as a hawk, so the joys of spending
his life as one must have occured to him. And now he's found the perfect
person to be his companion for that life. So they do...
But on the other hand, the whole 'never to return' but doesn't quite
ring true. It's not quite in character for him. One of his early lessons
was learning to accecpt love, he already was able to give love, he cared
about Grat, Pol, etc. He wouldn't just give up all contact with them
like that.
Okay, so he said he'd never return. Maybe he'll stay in touch by other
means, eg talking by mind, rather than in person?
Ce'Nedra
Ce'Nedra touched her fingers to her amulet, and heard Beldin
<bel...@aldur.net> say:
>Ce'Nedra, while brushing her hair, mused:
>
>>He doesn't *have* to....
>
>>>2) Subjected to universal spite due to form
>>..... he can change his form anytime....
>
>>>(no time, ugly as sin)
>>....could've changed the latter....
>
>an illusion? I don't think he could make any permanent physical
>alterations. If that were the case, then why would he not have done
>so? Would not the grolims have used such an ability to transform
>themselves into Cary Grant look-alikes? They were possessed of the
>vanity to do so, so why didn't they? I think it was because they could
>not alter their own physical appearance in such a fashion. If it is a
>question of power, some of the grolims had power to rival that of
>Belgarath and Beldin.
Okay, we all know that Beldin can change form.
All of Aldurs disciples could, once taught.
We know Beldin can change into animal forms.
We've seen Belgarath also change into animals forms, female ones too.
We've seen Belgarath change into the form of a different human.
Why don't you think Beldin can do this too?
Also, in BtS, when they discover that Belgarath learned the language of
wolves by changing his form to one, an arguement started between two
other disciples about whether changing into the form of a human of a
different race would enable you to speak their language.
Okay, those two never actually did it, but they seemed to think that
they could change to another human form.
As for why didn't the vain grolims change into more attractive forms?
*shrug* I don't know, I'm not a mind reader. :)
I'll agree with you in the fact they can't alter *their* physical
appearance (Pol and that lock of hair...) but they can certianly change
into a different one, which does the same purpose.
Brian Davidson
Ce'Nedra (Ce'Ne...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: As for why didn't the vain grolims change into more attractive forms?
: *shrug* I don't know, I'm not a mind reader. :)
Here's a thought: Perhaps their god, Torak, wouldn't like having
attractive priests. After all, he too was a bit vain, and after being
scarred by the Orb, grew hateful toward any who were handsome. Since he
himself could not change his appearance to get rid of the Orb's scarring,
he likely would be inclined to refuse such powers to his priests as well.
Therefore, Grolims are required to be ugly, or at the very least, not make
themselves look better.
-Kheldar
Azash
In the candlelit library of the darkened Keep, a book flicks open
to a page where bel...@aldur.net (Beldin) has written...
>The argument around Poledra is invalidated because of the task she had
>before her. She was sustained and protected by UL. Hers is a unique
>case.
>
>What Beldin did was to sacrifice his longevity and his humanity to be
>with the desire of his heart.
Hmmm, do D&LE say somewhere that hawks are intelligent creatures? IIRC,
they say that only wolves and one or two more are. If not, then I'm
wondering whether, when Beldin and Vella become hawks, will they still
have their love for each other? If they are, then good for Beldin and
Vella.
[As the Elder God heads for the docks, he feels an itch just
between his shoulder blades.]
To mail me, turn the "DRUID" into a "demon".
Zeshan
Ce'Nedra <Ce'Ne...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<gjBSt4Bd...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk>...
> As for why didn't the vain grolims change into more attractive forms?
> *shrug* I don't know, I'm not a mind reader. :)
They might be vain, but I don't think that those Grolims who are powerful
enough to do such a thing care all that much about facial beauty, else
why the blood offering to Torak on the face ?
Zeshan
Azash
In the candlelit library of the darkened Keep, a book flicks open
written...
>Okay, we all know that Beldin can change form.
>All of Aldurs disciples could, once taught.
>We know Beldin can change into animal forms.
>We've seen Belgarath also change into animals forms, female ones too.
>We've seen Belgarath change into the form of a different human.
>Why don't you think Beldin can do this too?
>
[agrees]
IMHO, Beldin as Feldegast wasn't an illusion, but an actual physical
transformation - much in the same way the Sorcerors transform into
different animals. it probably requires a much greater level of
concentration, which is why they don't do it as much and why Feldegast
wasn't _all_ that different from Beldin.
>As for why didn't the vain grolims change into more attractive forms?
>*shrug* I don't know, I'm not a mind reader. :)
I think it probably has to do with the way the Grolims use sorcery.
IIRC, it's a different way to Belgarath & Co, it's more rationed by
Torak?
So anyway, the ritual scarring Grolims undergo is a real ego trip for
Torak. The fact that people inflict pain on themselves _and_ ruin any
handsomeness for him is a show of his domination over them. It remains
as symbol of that power for as long as they are alive. If you remember
Chabat, someone remarks she would have been very beautiful if she hadn't
scarred herself like that - again a mark of devotion, one I'm sure
whatever she worshipped loved immensely.
I think Kheldar also picked out the other side of the scarring - the
jealousy of Torak of anyone who looks better than him. Both points seem
similar, but there is quite different reasoning behind them.
[not only a mind reader, but one with some idea of what a fellow evil
god thinks ;) ]
Zeshan
Ce'Nedra <Ce'Ne...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<rT7QB2B2...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk>...
<snip>
> But on the other hand, the whole 'never to return' but doesn't quite
> ring true. It's not quite in character for him. One of his early
lessons
> was learning to accecpt love, he already was able to give love, he
cared
> about Grat, Pol, etc. He wouldn't just give up all contact with them
> like that.
No ? So far the universe has been governed by the accident, now it's
finally time for everything to move on, including Beldin.
> Okay, so he said he'd never return. Maybe he'll stay in touch by other
> means, eg talking by mind, rather than in person?
Then why was everyone acting as if they would never hear from him again ?
Eddings was definitely trying to tie up as much as he could at the end of
the Mal. Perhaps he did leave some things open ended, but whereas the
Belgariad quite clearly pointed to a sequel, the Mal was much more final
- everyone was married off, killed, divinified as necessary.
IMO Beldin is gone, and that's as much as we need to know.
Zeshan
Killane
Azash wrote:
> Hmmm, do D&LE say somewhere that hawks are intelligent creatures? IIRC,
> they say that only wolves and one or two more are. If not, then I'm
> wondering whether, when Beldin and Vella become hawks, will they still
> have their love for each other? If they are, then good for Beldin and
> Vella.
>
Eddings say that hawks are intelligent but that Eagles aren't. Eagles are
supposedly very stupid birds.
Daniel Peters
The small spark that is me got ignited by the fiery remarks of
> Eddings say that hawks are intelligent but that Eagles aren't. Eagles are
> supposedly very stupid birds.
...but even Eagle's are monogamous -- although I don't know
about hawks...
Umm, my knowledge actually stems from the book "Callanish" (I
believe..., German title: The Flight of the Eagle") by William Horwood.
I've read the book at least six times and I still love it, but it's
still only a tale. - That book is btw one of the reason's, why I still
nourish a wish to visit Scotland - Which I will possibly do this autumn.
:)
Another BTW: Does anybody know, if this William Horwood is the
same one that wrote the stories about the moles in the "Duncton Tales"?
I just today when I checked the name of the author realised that the
name is the same...
Daniel
Simon Nickerson
A frolicsome rabbit mentioned to me that Zeshan (bless his cotton socks)
had been causing a stir with these remarks:
>They might be vain, but I don't think that those Grolims who are powerful
>enough to do such a thing care all that much about facial beauty, else
>why the blood offering to Torak on the face ?
Perhaps it would be seen as blasphemous; since the Orb burned away
half of Torak's face, he stopped being beautiful. I'm not sure that
Torak (being of the jealous, egotistical sort) would want his Grolims
looking more facially attractive than himself. :-)
--
Celsimon (High Priest of Happy Bunnies)
I have some happy bunnies protecting me from spam e-mails.
To send mail, please ask them nicely to go away.
Osc...@fornmin.tam.gov
The Tamuli Imperial Foreign Ministry informed me that Kheldar
expounded thusly:
>Here's a thought: Perhaps their god, Torak, wouldn't like having
>attractive priests. After all, he too was a bit vain, and after being
>scarred by the Orb, grew hateful toward any who were handsome. Since he
>himself could not change his appearance to get rid of the Orb's scarring,
>he likely would be inclined to refuse such powers to his priests as well.
>Therefore, Grolims are required to be ugly, or at the very least, not make
>themselves look better.
>-Kheldar
Well, we hear over and over how Torak like ugly things... the city he
lives in, the house he lives in, the big rolling iron house-thingy he
lives it... It would be logical that he would choose ugly people to
be his disciples. He's drawn to ugliness, and that may be the result
of his maiming, but I think his maiming was a result of his inner
ugliness.
CelOscagne, High Priest of Skeptics and Cynics
To bypass the Atans guarding my mailbox, change "Oscagne" to "Mcgrew" and "FornMin.tam.gov" to "lcc.net".
Ce'Nedra
Ce'Nedra touched her fingers to her amulet, and heard Zeshan
<zeshan...@btinternet.com> say:
>> But on the other hand, the whole 'never to return' but doesn't quite
>> ring true. It's not quite in character for him. One of his early
>lessons
>> was learning to accecpt love, he already was able to give love, he
>cared
>> about Grat, Pol, etc. He wouldn't just give up all contact with them
>> like that.
>
>No ? So far the universe has been governed by the accident, now it's
>finally time for everything to move on, including Beldin.
I wouldn't go as far as saying the Prophecy was governing him to the
extent of forcing him to stay in touch with Belgarath, Polgara, Belkira,
Beltira etc.
If you're going to take it as far as saying the Prophecy *made* him love
them, then everything that's happened after Korim falls apart.
By your rules, Belgarath and Poledra should split up and 'move on' as
they were flung together by the events since the accident. Garion and
Ce'Nedra should also split up as they were only brought together by the
prophecy too. Etc etc etc...
The fact is they *won't*. Even though they were manipulated (or
governed) into being together, they genuinely care about each other. All
of them. Beldin genuinely loves Belgarath, Poledra, Polgara etc, he's
known them for centuries, and I still say his loss of contact with them
is out of keeping with the 'gentle Beldin' portrayed in the other books.
--
Ce'Nedra - Queen of the World, Heart of the Wolf, Guardian of AFE.
"I've got as much right to make a fool of myself in public as anyone else."
(No spamblockers in my header. Action will be gleefully taken against)
(anyone sending spam to me, or to any of my subscribed newsgroups.)
Ce'Nedra
Ce'Nedra touched her fingers to her amulet, and heard Azash
<Az...@shannara.DRUID.co.uk> say:
>>Okay, we all know that Beldin can change form.
>>All of Aldurs disciples could, once taught.
>>We know Beldin can change into animal forms.
>>We've seen Belgarath also change into animals forms, female ones too.
>>We've seen Belgarath change into the form of a different human.
>>Why don't you think Beldin can do this too?
>>
>[agrees]
[curtseys to the Elder God]
(between gritted teeth)
You're too kind.
(/gritted teeth)
>IMHO, Beldin as Feldegast wasn't an illusion, but an actual physical
>transformation - much in the same way the Sorcerors transform into
>different animals. it probably requires a much greater level of
>concentration, which is why they don't do it as much and why Feldegast
>wasn't _all_ that different from Beldin.
I'm sure in past discussions it's been concluded that Feldegast's
appearance was an illusion rather than a transformation for the simple
fact that when he got drunk, it started to 'slip' and his natural
appearance showed through. If it had been a shape change, he would have
stayed in that shape until he actually gathered his will and changed it.
(lets just assume that he didn't do this while drunk, for the sake of
brevity.) :)
It's more likely that as he got drunk, he lost his 'grip' on the
illusion and it wavered a bit.
--
Ce'Nedra
Outranked and unimpressed. ;)
Azash
In the candlelit library of the darkened Keep, a book flicks open
>
>
>Azash wrote:
>
>> Hmmm, do D&LE say somewhere that hawks are intelligent creatures? IIRC,
>> they say that only wolves and one or two more are. If not, then I'm
>> wondering whether, when Beldin and Vella become hawks, will they still
>> have their love for each other? If they are, then good for Beldin and
>> Vella.
>>
>
>supposedly very stupid birds.
>
easily. She just watched Belgarath doing it once, said something along
the lines of "Oh, so that's how you do it" and changed. Now either DE
has taken his predestination _toooooo_ far, or one can pick up tWtW. Now
I know Poledra was very intelligent compared to your average hoo-man but
surely Beldin would be able to teach Vella at least a bit in a few
years?
Corrine Allen
iWalter de Bruin <w...@worldonline.nl> wrote:
>Dom Wynn <domini...@blackwell.co.uk> schreef in artikel
><352C893F...@blackwell.co.uk>...
>
>> is that what is applicable to Grat & Pol is not the same for him
>
>
>>
>> ie
>
>ie? <g>
>
>>
>> 1) he has to live several thousand years in a form he despises
>
>'He despises his form, so he ignores it.'
>
>
>service, that stopped. His brothers never spited him and when he went out
>into the world he even _used_ his deformity to blend right in.
>'People can't see behind the hump on my back.'
>
>
>change shape and live for a few thousand years is _quite_ rewarding.
>
>> start...bringing up Pol for seconds :)
>
>things out (like why 2 and 2 make 4 or why female sorcerers work
>differently).
>
>> (no time, ugly as sin)
>
>unmeaningful, do you?
>
>
intelligent AND the most sensitive member of the Brotherhood. The time
that he spent pondering on female sorcery whilst watching Torak's
mountain was more to pass the time than choosing to distance himself. In
the long term, he was in a society of people with their own tasks, and
lives. He only ever had the tasks. The form of the hawk was an
expression of freedom from the concerns of humans, who set him apart
from everything that gives life quality and meaning. Vella gave him
exactly what he deserves - a sense of worth for him, individually. Not
power, or looks.
--
Corrine Allen (Cor...@callahans.demon.co.uk)
Walter de Bruin
Brian Davidson <bri...@indy.net> schreef in artikel
<6gpkeh$pvh$1...@news.indy.net>...
> : As for why didn't the vain grolims change into more attractive forms?
> : *shrug* I don't know, I'm not a mind reader. :)
>
> Here's a thought: Perhaps their god, Torak, wouldn't like having
> attractive priests.
zandramas is described as being prety, yet to have made herself less pretty
with those scars on her cheeks....
Hmmm, maybe you do have a point....
OTOH, I think vanity simply was a definite no-no in Grolim society.
Walter de Bruin
> >Do I sense a little bit of agreement with me here? I do hope so,
especially
> >from one so beautiful.. :-)
> >
> Errr, I was actually just picking holes in the logic of his argument,
So was I. Your message very much coincided with my reaction to his
arguments. But as Sephrenia so loves to say: "Let's not fall back on logic
if we don't have to..."
> not really agreeing or disagreeing. What was your first point?
> [flicks through newsgroup]
> That Beldin shouldn't have left like that?
No, WHY he did leave like that?
>
> Hmmm, I can see both sides. (the curse of being a Libra, able to argue
> for both sides of an arguement) ;)
Well, being Gemini myself, I can position myself on both sides..
> On one hand, I can see why he did it. Remember how Belgarath felt when
> he first met Poledra (before she got her name) ? He was tempted to spend
> his life as a wolf with her, all that stuff about the joys of puppies
> and hunting with a faithful mate..
Yes, but only because he was already spending his time as a wolf. Beldin
occassionally may be a hawk, but hardly ever for weeks (or days) on end. At
least, as far as I can determine.
> Beldin has spent a fair bit of time as a hawk, so the joys of spending
> his life as one must have occured to him. And now he's found the perfect
> person to be his companion for that life. So they do...
I think it's a shaky argument myself. Especially because of your own 'otoh'
remarks:
>
> But on the other hand, the whole 'never to return' but doesn't quite
> ring true. It's not quite in character for him. One of his early lessons
> was learning to accecpt love, he already was able to give love, he cared
> about Grat, Pol, etc. He wouldn't just give up all contact with them
> like that.
Exactamente! My point exactly. I think only Eddings himself can tell us the
real story behind it.
>
> Okay, so he said he'd never return. Maybe he'll stay in touch by other
> means, eg talking by mind, rather than in person?
I don't think so. Somewhere in BtS B. muses 'I wonder how he and Vella are
getting on.' And BtS is written at least a year after the end of SoK.
Killane
Ce'Nedra wrote:
> If you're going to take it as far as saying the Prophecy *made* him love
> them, then everything that's happened after Korim falls apart.
> By your rules, Belgarath and Poledra should split up and 'move on' as
> they were flung together by the events since the accident. Garion and
> Ce'Nedra should also split up as they were only brought together by the
> prophecy too. Etc etc etc...
>
consider this too:Well, the prophecy has been known to reward those who comply
with it. so even though they were brought together by prophecy, doesn't mean
that they're any worse off for it. It doesn't mean that their love is any less
genuine.
Killane
Walter de Bruin wrote:
> > Here's a thought: Perhaps their god, Torak, wouldn't like having
> > attractive priests.
>
> zandramas is described as being prety, yet to have made herself less pretty
> with those scars on her cheeks....
>
> Hmmm, maybe you do have a point....
>
well, y' never know - there are a lot of strange people out there...
Ce'Nedra
>>supposedly very stupid birds.
>>
>There was also something else. Poledra picked up shape-changing pretty
>easily. She just watched Belgarath doing it once, said something along
>the lines of "Oh, so that's how you do it" and changed. Now either DE
>has taken his predestination _toooooo_ far,
before she met Belgarath,
(BtS, pb UK, p84 "I got the strong impression that they somehow already
knew each other" referring to her meeting with Aldur shortly after
Belgarath had first met her as a wolf)
so it's possible that she had the latent quality in her, and merely
needed to be shown how to use it.
> or one can pick up tWtW.
>Now
>I know Poledra was very intelligent compared to your average hoo-man but
>surely Beldin would be able to teach Vella at least a bit in a few
>years?
I don't think she has the necessary latent talent. Doesn't Belgarath say
somewhere that people have changed over the centuries so that they don't
have the ability in them any more?
Except for some of the descendents of Riva and Beldaran presumably....
Oh dear.... I think I'm about to start a genetics thread!
Do we assume that even though Beldaran herself wasn't a sorceress, that
she had inherited a gene for it from Belgarath (and Poledra) that she
passed on to her children, and their children, etc, and only actually
showed itself very occasionally?
--
Zandramas
Castellan <charle...@obvious.spam.blocker.diamond.co.uk> wrote:
> I agree, and also underestimating Vella's complexity, she quite clearly is
> not destined for a 'normal fate' (SoD Chapter 1), and since she turns
> herself into a totally new breed of hawk (remember Beldin's is his own
> creation, and hers is differed by it's lavender band), who is to say what
> the life expectancy of their new breed is?
Umm.. If I remember correctly, Beldin had some kind of blue streak to
his wings, and she had lavender.. Doesn't all hawks has some kind of
streak to them *trying hard to remember her biology classes* and then
the colours shouldn't really mean that they are a new breed.
Then again, if they are, they really need to be in love, otherwise
they cannot mate at all. Animals very rarely mate outside their own
kind, (yes, I know about mules, but those are an exception).
But, am I wrong again if I recall something like Belgarath (or was it
Polgara) that spoke something about the longer you are in a shape the
more you begin to think like that one and the more you think like it
the less you remember about your old shape. Anyone else recalls that?
If it is true, then Vella and Beldin won't care about the others after
sometime, since they simply won't remember them. They won't remember
that they had a life before being a hawk.
Won't Vella die after some time though, since she isn't a sorcerer? So
then she would be left alone. And isn't it strange that Vella and
Beldin are allowed, but Durnik needed to get powers for him to be able
to marry Polgara (Well, Vella wasn't dead, but some objection should
have been there.. Right?)
--
Zandramas
--==> Walk in darkness, it is interesting <==--
Zandramas
Azash <Az...@shannara.DRUID.co.uk> wrote:
> There was also something else. Poledra picked up shape-changing pretty
> easily. She just watched Belgarath doing it once, said something along
> the lines of "Oh, so that's how you do it" and changed. Now either DE
> I know Poledra was very intelligent compared to your average hoo-man but
> surely Beldin would be able to teach Vella at least a bit in a few
> years?
Well, aren't you supposed to have the spark within you first, since
B/M world doesn't work as yours dear Azash, here you don't have to be
able to know another language to be able to do magic. You just have to
have the spark. Someone thinks that I am way off with this?
Then you have to become exceptionally angry to be able to release the
spark. I got a bad memory about the exact way it worked, but that is
how I remembered it. And if I remember correctly, Vella wouldn't be
able to pick it up. No matter how clever she is.
Zandramas
Zeshan <zeshan...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Eddings was definitely trying to tie up as much as he could at the end of
> the Mal. Perhaps he did leave some things open ended, but whereas the
> Belgariad quite clearly pointed to a sequel, the Mal was much more final
> - everyone was married off, killed, divinified as necessary.
Yes, but he refered to that earlier in the book. I seem to remember
something about a reward that they would get. Zith's pregnancy was put
up until she was done with her work in the quest, then she got it, as
a reward. Everyone was very neatly married off, I've always seen that
as a reward as well. Well, Toth was killed, but what would his life
been like if he hadn't died. Cyradis, if she'd taken off her
blindfold, wouldn't have needed him any longer, he would have been
unemployed. If he had been around then I doubt that she would have
chosen Eriond, if he had been around I doubt that Cyradis would have
gone to Zakath as she did.
Walter de Bruin
Killane <akes...@lynx.dac.neu.edu> schreef in artikel
<3532CB06...@lynx.dac.neu.edu>...
> > zandramas is described as being prety, yet to have made herself less
pretty
> > with those scars on her cheeks....
> >
> > Hmmm, maybe you do have a point....
> >
>
> well, y' never know - there are a lot of strange people out there...
On the other hand: Torak is described as being a very beautiful person,
before the Orb decided to take steps to remedy that. Okay, he had it
coming, I know, but still. Vanity therefore could be part of Torak's mental
make-up, couldn't it?
--
TTFN,
Walter
(w...@worldonline.nl)
'The bathhouse used to be in that general direction."
Toth
I didn't feel that Poledra discovered sorcery that time, but rather she
discovered how to shape change. I got the impression that he already knew
sorcery, but not how to shape change.
-->Toth
RL: Toby | ICQ:2984993 | AFE:Toth | AW:Torlboth
to mail me change my alias to tismith and the home
of Cyradis (ie: k e l l) to geocities
Daniel Peters
The small spark that is me got ignited by the fiery remarks of
> Won't Vella die after some time though, since she isn't a sorcerer? So
> then she would be left alone. And isn't it strange that Vella and
> Beldin are allowed, but Durnik needed to get powers for him to be able
> to marry Polgara
Yes, that was also the part that kept me wondering, and one of
the reasons why I think, that Vella might pick up something of sorcery
from Beldin with the time. Because then Vella and Beldin would _also_ be
on equal footing. Another possibility that has been alluded to in these
threads is of course, that Beldin gave up his powers, just as Polgara
_offered_ to do, just before she married Durnik. However I don't muchly
like this second possibility...
Daniel
Daniel Peters
The small spark that is me got ignited by the fiery remarks of
> I don't think she has the necessary latent talent. Doesn't Belgarath say
> somewhere that people have changed over the centuries so that they don't
> have the ability in them any more?
Hmmph. Yes, he said something like that. (However, I'm ignoring that for
now :) )
> Except for some of the descendents of Riva and Beldaran presumably....
> Oh dear.... I think I'm about to start a genetics thread!
[grin]
> Do we assume that even though Beldaran herself wasn't a sorceress, that
> she had inherited a gene for it from Belgarath (and Poledra) that she
> passed on to her children, and their children, etc, and only actually
> showed itself very occasionally?
I can accept, that the descendants of Riva and Beldaran
inherited something of a latent sorcerer-gene, but that can't be the
only source for sorcerers -- where would the original sorcerers come
from, if it's only inherited? Of course, they were born much earlier,
but if it was only _that_, why aren't there more of them? We know of
something like 10 sorcerers (Belgarath, Zedar, Belmakor, Beldin,
Belsambar, Belkira, Beltira, Senji, Polgara, Poledra) (I might have
missed some) That number seems exceedingly small considering the average
life-span of sorcerers.
Daniel
Azash
In the candlelit library of the darkened Keep, a book flicks open
written...
>It's more likely that as he got drunk, he lost his 'grip' on the
>illusion and it wavered a bit.
Hmmm, okay, since it's been concluded already, but I don't think I
entirely agree. ;)
>--
> Ce'Nedra
>Outranked and unimpressed. ;)
[the god in the Druid's form doesn't look up from picking at his nails]
You think an Elder God cares that a puny, unimportant Queen of a one
petty little world is unimpressed? [chuckles evilly] My. my, such a
pretty little thing with such a high opinion of herself. Oh, and keep
practising the curtseying, I do believe one is supposed to smile sweetly
when greeting a... _superior_. [the Elder God glances up briefly to see
if his little speech has had the desired effect]
Azash
In the candlelit library of the darkened Keep, a book flicks open
to a page where Ce'Nedra <Ce'Ne...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk> has
written...
>The fact is they *won't*. Even though they were manipulated (or
>governed) into being together, they genuinely care about each other. All
>of them. Beldin genuinely loves Belgarath, Poledra, Polgara etc, he's
>known them for centuries, and I still say his loss of contact with them
>is out of keeping with the 'gentle Beldin' portrayed in the other books.
It could be that once the two of them (Vella and Beldin) stay hawks for
too long, they forget all about the gang and only think of hawk-things
like mating, hunting and laying eggs. Perhaps that was the choice Beldin
made, Vella over what he had come to love over the past x-thousand
years. _I_ don't think this fits in with Beldin's character, but he
_could_ have made that choice.
Azash
In the candlelit library of the darkened Keep, a book flicks open
Fine, no-one critique my theory then. ;)
Azash
In the candlelit library of the darkened Keep, a book flicks open
written...
>so it's possible that she had the latent quality in her, and merely
>needed to be shown how to use it.
>I don't think she has the necessary latent talent. Doesn't Belgarath say
>somewhere that people have changed over the centuries so that they don't
>have the ability in them any more?
Do all Grolims have latent talent? Did Chamdar? Since he could turn
himself into a crow or raven or some such and spy on the Company? If so,
then we have to put him in the list of sorcerors (Belgarath, Polgara,
Belmakor, Belzedar, Belsambar, etc ec). If not, then someone had to
teach him sorcery, much like Beldin could teach Vella sorcery.
>Do we assume that even though Beldaran herself wasn't a sorceress, that
>she had inherited a gene for it from Belgarath (and Poledra) that she
>passed on to her children, and their children, etc, and only actually
>showed itself very occasionally?
Yes. ;)
Walter de Bruin
Daniel Peters <pet...@cip.chemie.uni-hamburg.de> schreef in artikel
<35381d93...@news.uni-hamburg.de>...
> but if it was only _that_, why aren't there more of them? We know of
> something like 10 sorcerers (Belgarath, Zedar, Belmakor, Beldin,
> Belsambar, Belkira, Beltira, Senji, Polgara, Poledra) (I might have
> missed some) That number seems exceedingly small considering the average
> life-span of sorcerers.
Doesn't the explanation Beldin and Senji stumble upon cover that? Senji did
teach sorcery and he did have a few gifted students, but they more or less
all disappeared. hey ponder on the reason for that and rather shakily
conclude, that those students tried to destroy something, thus destroying
themselves...
The sorcerers we know about (apart from Senji, but there's an exception to
every rule <g>) all did get instructions in how to use it.
--
TTFN,
Walter
(w...@worldonline.nl)
"How do you spell 'Prophecy'?"
"I don't."
Dom Wynn
go away for three days and see what happens.....
Ce'Nedra wrote:
>
> >1) he has to live several thousand years in a form he despises
> He doesn't *have* to....
oh yes he does: he can't permanently change form (as discussed
recently), and I have a feeling Beldin is far too much of an intelligent
man just to run from his ugliness. It is his defining characteristic -
it has shaped all he came to be: his start in life, his outcasting, his
discovery of another family. To pretend that he is otherwise would be
self deception of a fine order.
>
> >2) Subjected to universal spite due to form
> ..... he can change his form anytime....
doesn't change the fact that if he was to wear his true form he would be
reviled...
> >3) dedicates his long life to a God without reward and has sacraficed
> >much for friends (a millenia or so sitting on a mountain for a
> >start...bringing up Pol for seconds :)
> >4) unable to enter into any meaningful relationship with other people
> >(no time, ugly as sin)
> ....could've changed the latter....
see above
> >5) endowed with powers beyond imagining
> So were Grat and Pol......
yes but there is a qualitative difference 'tween the 'Grats (to use
their family name :)) and Beldin. Beldin has not given his life to a
line of sandy haired boys. He has not defended the west from the
machinations of angarak magicians. He has not tied himself to any-one
race as Pol did for a time. As I said earlier, you have to look at what
he has been thru' and his lack of contact with the rest of humanity: his
tie is to his immediate family who provided him with a home after his
casting out. That family is moving on - it is time for Beldin to do the
same...
Dom
Dom Wynn
Walter said:
> >
> > 1) he has to live several thousand years in a form he despises
>
> Granted. Yet, to quote Polgara (or Belgarath, I can't remember):
> 'He despises his form, so he ignores it.'
I ignore the fact I am quite a small chap. Doesn't change the fact that
it shapes my attitudes to the world, and the world's to me....being
short doesn't annoy me, but being ostracised by humanity might get a
little tiresome.
> > 2) Subjected to universal spite due to form
>
> Bull.
Why thank you. A simple 'I disagree' would have done.
>That happened when he was a boy. The moment he entered Aldur's
> service, that stopped. His brothers never spited him and when he went out
> into the world he even _used_ his deformity to blend right in.
> 'People can't see behind the hump on my back.'
Did all the things that shaped you into an adult cease to matter once
you turned 21? (or 18 or whatever). If they did then you are a unique
man. I think the reference to 'seeing beyond the hump' is also a
reflection of Beldin's self knowledge of being an outsider: just cos it
can work to his benefit doesn't mean that he is happy about it IMHO.
> > 3) dedicates his long life to a God without reward and has sacraficed
>
> 'Scuse me? Without reward? I think being able to turn mountains inside out,
> change shape and live for a few thousand years is _quite_ rewarding.
His powers are not some kind of compensation for being ostracised: they
are given so that he can be a disciple of aldur (this leads on to the
whole sticky question concerning 'talent' being god-given or just a
natural thing). As a result he gains a family but it is a surrogate
relationship for the one he lost as a deformed boy: given the chance I
am not surprised he was prepared to let everything go and enter into a
relationship, as an equal, with some-one who loved him. I know it would
be nice to think that V&B lived onwards as two 'talented' humanoids but
my bet is that they stayed as hawks (corrobarated slightly by the ending
of the mal) and gradually forsook all human consciousness. I think that
this is entirely consistent with the experience of Beldin, tho' it is
presented in a very overblown romantic way.
> > much for friends (a millenia or so sitting on a mountain for a
> > start...bringing up Pol for seconds :)
>
> He _chose_ to sit on that mountain. Besides, it gave him a chance to work
> things out (like why 2 and 2 make 4 or why female sorcerers work
> differently).
he did it cos it was his _duty_. They all do, and none of them have much
in the way of individual will. They love their master but they have
certain duties that go along with their position. Beldin finally gets a
chance to escape from duty, as do all of them, in varying ways, at the
end of the novel...
2+2 was a way of occupying the time..
>
> > 4) unable to enter into any meaningful relationship with other people
> > (no time, ugly as sin)
>
> I wouldn't call his relationship with the other sorcerers (or Aldur)
> unmeaningful, do you?
nope, but it is like the difference between the workaholic whose whole
life (Friends, loved ones etc) is orientated around his occupation, and
others who may be have interests outside of that...
> > 5) endowed with powers beyond imagining
>
> So?
>
> > 6) endowed with fantastic creativity
>
> So?
just presenting the info so that it can seem to be moving towards a
grand point in a logical format :)
> >
> > Mix these things togther and then add
> >
> > 1) love of hawk form
> > 2) Finds relationship with equal
>
> Equal? I don't see Velda change shape. HE changes it FOR her! besides,
> ddings quite smoothly glosses over Velda's life expectancy. Wouldn't on
> Velda apply what Belgarath says to Polgara about Ontrose?
Your logic fails at this point surely? Ontrose and Polgara relationship
was never likely to occurr: as the lessons of Durnik & Polgara and
Belgarath and Poledra show, partnerships of this kind are between equals
(as demonstrated by the whole hoohaa regarding Durnik's talent). Thus
Vella was an equal and Ontrose was never likely to succeed. I would have
said that Vella transported herself...like Poledra did when she had been
following Grat around long enough.
>
> 'He'll be dead, before you can turn around twice.'
>
> > When you think about it what ties him to the rest of humanity is very
> > little indeed. He does not love it/feel tied to by duty it like Grat
> > seems to. Plus he finally gets a 'life': a girlfriend, more spare time
> > etc etc.
>
> I agree on 'the rest of humanity'. But he managed to live with that for
> over 6,000 years without becoming any less by it.
doesn't mean he likes it - he has a purpose and a 'family' to support
him. Doesn't replace the real thing.
> >
> > Retirement to a cottage in the vale is not his style, and anywhere else
>
> Okay. I don't deny him his right to change form, but I do choke on the line
> 'And then they were gone, never again to return.' SoK, p. 353.
Pathos does reduce the impact somewhat, but I think Eddings was trying
to make a point about him being able to put away the fairly naff life he
has been lumbered with..
>
> > he would be bound by the spite that is felt by humanity for him...so he
> > cuts and runs, and so solves the problem...
>
> I don't think running solves a problem. And I don't see Beldin as someone
> who takes the short and easy road out of a problem, either.
nope. that is why he sticks around for 6K years. But finally he
completes the task that he is allotted to do and 'retires' with the
dolly bird. Makes perfect sense to me.
Dom
Dom Wynn
Daniel Peters wrote:
> Another BTW: Does anybody know, if this William Horwood is the
> same one that wrote the stories about the moles in the "Duncton Tales"?
> I just today when I checked the name of the author realised that the
> name is the same...
>
> Daniel
yup: the same...tho' with a vastly different content.
Dom
Dom Wynn
Azash wrote:
>
> >so it's possible that she had the latent quality in her, and merely
> >needed to be shown how to use it.
>
> >I don't think she has the necessary latent talent. Doesn't Belgarath say
> >somewhere that people have changed over the centuries so that they don't
> >have the ability in them any more?
>
> Do all Grolims have latent talent? Did Chamdar? Since he could turn
> himself into a crow or raven or some such and spy on the Company? If so,
> then we have to put him in the list of sorcerors (Belgarath, Polgara,
> Belmakor, Belzedar, Belsambar, etc ec). If not, then someone had to
> teach him sorcery, much like Beldin could teach Vella sorcery.
>
this was discussed sometime ago.....it seems likely that the grading of
grolims partially reflects this latent v educated situation. He had a
slightly lesser
stature than the Disciples of Torak, but above the Higher Grolims - an
acolyte of kinds, able to use talent outside the home territory of the
Angaraks...possibly cos of his own natural talent
Dom
Dom Wynn
Walter de Bruin wrote:
>
> I always had a problem with that. Can a relationship be based on that?
<suspicious look> are you suggesting that people can only be physically
attracted to each other?
> > Beldin gave her the realization of her dreams by making it so that she
> > could fly with him.
>
> But for how long? She's not immortal, you know.
But the argument could be that she *may* be..
Dom Wynn
Walter de Bruin wrote:
>
>
> > Errr, I was actually just picking holes in the logic of his argument,
>
> So was I. Your message very much coincided with my reaction to his
> arguments. But as Sephrenia so loves to say: "Let's not fall back on logic
> if we don't have to..."
don't you just love being talked about in the third person?
> >
> > Hmmm, I can see both sides. (the curse of being a Libra, able to argue
> > for both sides of an arguement) ;)
>
> Well, being Gemini myself, I can position myself on both sides..
well being a Virgo I have never seen the other side :)
<sernip!>
> > But on the other hand, the whole 'never to return' but doesn't quite
> > ring true. It's not quite in character for him. One of his early lessons
> > was learning to accecpt love, he already was able to give love, he cared
> > about Grat, Pol, etc. He wouldn't just give up all contact with them
> > like that.
>
> Exactamente! My point exactly. I think only Eddings himself can tell us the
> real story behind it.
but perhaps he *did*. This really depends on your view point of the
story. If you accept that the various 'talented' individuals are now
going to age in a normal, if slightly 'longevified' (ha! new word!) way,
and that things in Eriondworld are going to return to normal, then I
would argue that things are going to change: that the brotherhood will
begin to go its own ways....that the companions now can return to what
they were doing before they were used as the PoL's tools. Some may
become the tools of Eriond, but most will drift off..
Dom
Dom Wynn
Ce'Nedra wrote:
>
> >>>(no time, ugly as sin)
> >
> >an illusion? I don't think he could make any permanent physical
> >alterations. If that were the case, then why would he not have done
> >so? Would not the grolims have used such an ability to transform
> >themselves into Cary Grant look-alikes? They were possessed of the
> >vanity to do so, so why didn't they? I think it was because they could
> >not alter their own physical appearance in such a fashion. If it is a
> >question of power, some of the grolims had power to rival that of
> >Belgarath and Beldin.
>
> Okay, we all know that Beldin can change form.
> All of Aldurs disciples could, once taught.
> We know Beldin can change into animal forms.
> We've seen Belgarath also change into animals forms, female ones too.
> We've seen Belgarath change into the form of a different human.
> Why don't you think Beldin can do this too?
(bitz snipped)
yes, but the time frame is too long: if they go on as hawks then they
will eventually turn 'native'. Similarly if Beldin had tried to change
his appearance then he would have been altered on the inside as well...
Dom
Castellan
Zandramas wrote in message <
>
>Then you have to become exceptionally angry to be able to release the
>spark. I got a bad memory about the exact way it worked, but that is
>how I remembered it. And if I remember correctly, Vella wouldn't be
>able to pick it up. No matter how clever she is.
>
sorcerous lives in a fit of pique, Beldin, Belgarath, Senji. The females
seem to be altogether more level-headed, when first encountering this part
of themselves. D&LE making a point? Who knows :-)
--
Castellan O.H.D.M.S.S. - charle...@diamond.co.uk -
http://members.tripod.com/~Castellan/
'No, not for me. I'll just stick with the quail's eyeballs'
Castellan
Zandramas wrote in message <>
>Umm.. If I remember correctly, Beldin had some kind of blue streak to
>his wings, and she had lavender.. Doesn't all hawks has some kind of
>streak to them *trying hard to remember her biology classes* and then
>the colours shouldn't really mean that they are a new breed.
>
It's stated somewhere (by Belgarath I think) that it is a new breed, of
Beldin's devising, for the very reason that Beldin wanted blue bands.
>Then again, if they are, they really need to be in love, otherwise
>they cannot mate at all. Animals very rarely mate outside their own
>kind, (yes, I know about mules, but those are an exception).
>
Why can't the lavender band be the female mark of the new breed? As for
offspring, it's up to them to keep the breed alive or not.
Zeshan
Ce'Nedra <Ce'Ne...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<$o3lPNCY...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk>...
> Ce'Nedra touched her fingers to her amulet, and heard Zeshan
> <zeshan...@btinternet.com> say:
<snip>
> >No ? So far the universe has been governed by the accident, now it's
> >finally time for everything to move on, including Beldin.
>
> I wouldn't go as far as saying the Prophecy was governing him to the
> extent of forcing him to stay in touch with Belgarath, Polgara,
Belkira,
> Beltira etc.
Perhaps, in a way it was. They all got along fine, but if they hadn't, do
you think the prophecy would care ? To both the prophecies, the most
important thing is (was) the uniting of the universe.
> If you're going to take it as far as saying the Prophecy *made* him
love
> them, then everything that's happened after Korim falls apart.
> By your rules, Belgarath and Poledra should split up and 'move on' as
> they were flung together by the events since the accident. Garion and
> Ce'Nedra should also split up as they were only brought together by the
> prophecy too. Etc etc etc...
We don't really know how much tampering the prophecy did, but from what
we see of the characters, the couples won't split up, but Beldin leaving
the sorcerers is hardly the same as Belgarath and Poldera splitting up;
anyhow, wolves mate for life, no ? ;-)
Everyone will *move on* that's what the LP was about, paths will diverge,
things will change - that's what 'grat and co were fighting for all their
lives.
Zeshan
Ce'Nedra
Ce'Nedra touched her fingers to her amulet, and heard Azash
<Az...@shannara.DRUID.co.uk> say:
>In the candlelit library of the darkened Keep, a book flicks open
>to a page where Ce'Nedra <Ce'Ne...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk> has
>written...
>
>>governed) into being together, they genuinely care about each other. All
>>of them. Beldin genuinely loves Belgarath, Poledra, Polgara etc, he's
>>known them for centuries, and I still say his loss of contact with them
>>is out of keeping with the 'gentle Beldin' portrayed in the other books.
>
>It could be that once the two of them (Vella and Beldin) stay hawks for
>too long, they forget all about the gang and only think of hawk-things
>like mating, hunting and laying eggs. Perhaps that was the choice Beldin
>made, Vella over what he had come to love over the past x-thousand
>years. _I_ don't think this fits in with Beldin's character, but he
>_could_ have made that choice.
Hmmm... here's a suggestion that's bound to go down in flames, but I'm
silly enough to give it a try anyway....
Beldin makes the choice to spend the rest of his life as a hawk with
Vella. The above is true, and they'll forget being human (or for anyone
that's read Equal Rites by TP, they'll be like Esk when she was in the
eagles mind, a bird dreaming it was once a human....).
BUT Beldin didn't realise at the time that he'd forget, and never be
able to visit. I don't think he says anything along the lines of 'I'll
never see you again' to any of them. Okay, he says they won't need
Vella's papers, diamond etc, but they wouldn't need them anyway if they
were just buggering off to become hawks with only the occasional visit
or two.
Of course, Eddings knows that they'll never be back, and that's why he
writes 'never to return again.', although Beldin himself made no
conscious decision at that time to cease all contact with his adopted
family.
Thoughts? :)
Ce'Nedra
Ce'Nedra touched her fingers to her amulet, and heard Walter de Bruin
<w...@worldonline.nl> say:
>> On one hand, I can see why he did it. Remember how Belgarath felt when
>> he first met Poledra (before she got her name) ? He was tempted to spend
>> his life as a wolf with her, all that stuff about the joys of puppies
>> and hunting with a faithful mate..
>
>Yes, but only because he was already spending his time as a wolf. Beldin
>occassionally may be a hawk, but hardly ever for weeks (or days) on end. At
>least, as far as I can determine.
I always got the impression that Beldin spent more time as a hawk, than
Belgarath did as a wolf.
Ce'Nedra
Ce'Nedra touched her fingers to her amulet, and heard Azash
<Az...@shannara.DRUID.co.uk> say:
>In the candlelit library of the darkened Keep, a book flicks open
>to a page where Ce'Nedra <Ce'Ne...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk> has
>written...
>
>>illusion and it wavered a bit.
>
>Hmmm, okay, since it's been concluded already, but I don't think I
>entirely agree. ;)
Okay, when I say concluded, I'm only guessing, you'd have to check
Dejanews to find the final conclusion. Whatever it was, I bet people
still argued against it anyway.
But that's *my* conclusion.
Why would you disagree?
>>Outranked and unimpressed. ;)
>[the god in the Druid's form doesn't look up from picking at his nails]
>You think an Elder God cares that a puny, unimportant Queen of a one
>petty little world is unimpressed? [chuckles evilly] My. my, such a
>pretty little thing with such a high opinion of herself. Oh, and keep
>practising the curtseying, I do believe one is supposed to smile sweetly
>when greeting a... _superior_. [the Elder God glances up briefly to see
>if his little speech has had the desired effect]
[the Queen gives a sweet smile, and mutely curtseys with great sweeping
gestures, but with every precise movement of her body shrieking
rebellion. As soon as the 'Druid' is out of sight, her fingers fly to
her throat....]
'Garion dear, sorry to interrupt you, yes I *know* you're busy being
Overlord of the West and all that...errr you will remember not to play
with any thunderstorms this time, won't you? Good. You *know* how upset
Belgarath was with you last time.... anyway, I actually wanted to speak
to you about your titles. I mean, you're always busy being the Rivan
King, Lording it over the West and things like that, but when was the
last time you lived up to your name of Godslayer? Exactly. You *know*
that titles are like houses, they fall into disrepair if they're not
used. But don't worry, I've got it all arranged for you. Just come home,
and I've got a little job for you.....'
[Satisfied the queen sticks her tongue out in the direction the 'Druid'
was last seen.]
Ataraxia
Ce'Nedra wrote:
>
> Ce'Nedra touched her fingers to her amulet, and heard Walter de Bruin
> <w...@worldonline.nl> say:
> >> On one hand, I can see why he did it. Remember how Belgarath felt when
> >> he first met Poledra (before she got her name) ? He was tempted to spend
> >> his life as a wolf with her, all that stuff about the joys of puppies
> >> and hunting with a faithful mate..
> >
> >Yes, but only because he was already spending his time as a wolf. Beldin
> >occassionally may be a hawk, but hardly ever for weeks (or days) on end. At
> >least, as far as I can determine.
>
> I always got the impression that Beldin spent more time as a hawk, than
> Belgarath did as a wolf.
>
places (such as Mallorea) spying on the Bad Guys, but most likely not
very much time is in the form of the hawk. Otherwise, how could he do so
well playing Feldegast? Besides, being a hawk all the tiem isn't
necessary; you only need it for travel.
--
Ataraxia -- Official Poet of alt.books.m-lackey
http://130.203.1.10/~rkohler/
Winter has come too late
too close beside me.
How can I chase away
all these fears deep inside?
-- Enya, "Exile"
David Glasser
Daniel Peters <pet...@cip.chemie.uni-hamburg.de> wrote:
> I can accept, that the descendants of Riva and Beldaran
> inherited something of a latent sorcerer-gene, but that can't be the
> only source for sorcerers -- where would the original sorcerers come
> from, if it's only inherited? Of course, they were born much earlier,
> but if it was only _that_, why aren't there more of them? We know of
> something like 10 sorcerers (Belgarath, Zedar, Belmakor, Beldin,
> Belsambar, Belkira, Beltira, Senji, Polgara, Poledra) (I might have
> missed some) That number seems exceedingly small considering the average
> life-span of sorcerers.
Belgarion, Durnik.
--Davidgarath Glasser
gla...@NOSPAMuscom.com
Check out my new I-F website at http://onramp.uscom.com/~glasser
Or, for a waste of time,
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/6028/
David Glasser
Castellan <charle...@obvious.spam.blocker.diamond.co.uk> wrote:
> If you look at it though, it's only the male characters that start their
> sorcerous lives in a fit of pique, Beldin, Belgarath, Senji. The females
> seem to be altogether more level-headed, when first encountering this part
> of themselves. D&LE making a point? Who knows :-)
All two females?
David Glasser
(Many apologies if you start reading reposts, but my sources tell me
that my posts have not been going through.)
Re: Grolims looking bad
Many of you have mentioned wrath of Torak if his high priests are more
attractive than him. Though this may be the case, I'm thinking that in
addition to that the Grolims *want to* have hideous faces, which makes
them look like their beloved god Torak. May give them favor, too.
Simon Nickerson
A frolicsome rabbit mentioned to me that Walter de Bruin (bless his
cotton socks) had been causing a stir with these remarks:
>On the other hand: Torak is described as being a very beautiful person,
>before the Orb decided to take steps to remedy that. Okay, he had it
>coming, I know, but still. Vanity therefore could be part of Torak's mental
>make-up, couldn't it?
Vanity *was* quite definitely part of Torak's personality, or at least,
that was Belgarath's impression when he first met him:
"'Then one day a stranger came to us. He seemed to be
about the same height as I, but he walked as if he were
a thousand feet tall. His hair was black and his skin
was very pale, and he had, as I remember, greenish-
coloured eyes. His face was beautiful to the point of
being pretty, and his hair looked as if he spent a lot
of time combing it. He appeared to be the kind of
person who always has a mirror in his pocket."
(CoW chapter 21)
--
Celsimon (High Priest of Happy Bunnies)
I have some happy bunnies protecting me from spam e-mails.
To send mail, please ask them nicely to go away.
Dom Wynn
Ce'Nedra wrote:
>
> Hmmm... here's a suggestion that's bound to go down in flames, but I'm
> silly enough to give it a try anyway....
> Beldin makes the choice to spend the rest of his life as a hawk with
> Vella. The above is true, and they'll forget being human (or for anyone
> that's read Equal Rites by TP, they'll be like Esk when she was in the
> eagles mind, a bird dreaming it was once a human....).
> BUT Beldin didn't realise at the time that he'd forget, and never be
> able to visit. I don't think he says anything along the lines of 'I'll
> never see you again' to any of them. Okay, he says they won't need
> Vella's papers, diamond etc, but they wouldn't need them anyway if they
> were just buggering off to become hawks with only the occasional visit
> or two.
> Of course, Eddings knows that they'll never be back, and that's why he
> writes 'never to return again.', although Beldin himself made no
> conscious decision at that time to cease all contact with his adopted
> family.
>
> Thoughts? :)
interesting - as my other posts from yesterday suggest I think they will
forget - but somehow I think that Beldin would be aware of the
side-effects etc. He has practised sorcery for long enuff to be aware of
the risks..
nice idea tho' :)
Dom
jay...@vip.cybercity.dk
In article <QWHOAlBa...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk>,
> Of course, Eddings knows that they'll never be back, and that's why he
> writes 'never to return again.', although Beldin himself made no
> conscious decision at that time to cease all contact with his adopted
> family.
>
> Thoughts? :)
>
Hmmm..interesting. OTOH, I would think that Beldinæ„€ spent enough time
shapechanged over the millenniae to know exactly what the consequences would
be. And, by all accounts heæ„€ probably at least as bright as Itagne or
Sarabian. I know love is blind, and all that, but that doesnæ„’ seem like the
kind of slip that悲 be in character for Beldin. We愉e talking about a man who
spent 500 years on a hill "just to keep an eye on things". Now, _that究
attention to detail...
--
Jayjay ( a sucker for a happy ending, so keep he ideas rolling, please)
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Cho-Hag
Daniel Peters wrote:
> I can accept, that the descendants of Riva and Beldaran
> inherited something of a latent sorcerer-gene, but that can't be the
> only source for sorcerers -- where would the original sorcerers come
> from, if it's only inherited? Of course, they were born much earlier,
> but if it was only _that_, why aren't there more of them? We know of
> something like 10 sorcerers (Belgarath, Zedar, Belmakor, Beldin,
> Belsambar, Belkira, Beltira, Senji, Polgara, Poledra) (I might have
> missed some) That number seems exceedingly small considering the average
> life-span of sorcerers.
Belgarion & Durnik. And, to answer the question of why there are so few, 2
words:
BE NOT.
No, no, I didn't mean it that way! Oh, well, I'm not a sorceror anyway...
(Remember, for example, how Senji's students kept disappearing
mysteriously?)
--
::::::::: -Cho-Hag, Chief of the Clan-Chiefs of Algaria and AFE UN
## <) ## Sec-Gen nominator, is usually out of the Stronghold, but
##A/| )## can be reached @ nath...@mbox2.CUT.THIS.OUT.singnet.com.sg
## _\) ## "Usenet is wonderful. It enables people on opposite sides
## > ## of the globe to miscommunicate, faster than ever before."
\/\/V\/\/
Azash
In the candlelit library of the darkened Keep, a book flicks open
to a page where Ce'Nedra <Ce'Ne...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk> has
written...
>Hmmm... here's a suggestion that's bound to go down in flames, but I'm
>silly enough to give it a try anyway....
>Beldin makes the choice to spend the rest of his life as a hawk with
>Vella. The above is true, and they'll forget being human (or for anyone
>that's read Equal Rites by TP, they'll be like Esk when she was in the
>eagles mind, a bird dreaming it was once a human....).
That's exactly where I got the notion from. :)
.
>Of course, Eddings knows that they'll never be back, and that's why he
>writes 'never to return again.', although Beldin himself made no
>conscious decision at that time to cease all contact with his adopted
>family.
>
>Thoughts? :)
Hmmm, possible. But I think, like everyone else has pointed out, Beldin
knows what happens if you stay animal for too long, you go "native". I
think it would have had to be a conscious decision, but one I don't
think Beldin would have made. You can't live with a set of people for
x-thousand years and give them up for just one person, no matter how
much you love him/her. IMHO.
My other IMHO is that DE was being poetic when he said - never to return
again. I'd venture that they _did_ spend maybe 5-10 years away from the
Vale, but then came back. I think it all depends whether you think the
sorcerors are still going to have an extended life - I don't, I think
it's optional (ask for further clarification if required ;). So anyway,
they enjoy their time together as hawks, changing back now and then to
stop them becoming fully hawkified, then return home to live with the
'Grats. They live (relatively) normal lives, aging and all.
Azash
In the candlelit library of the darkened Keep, a book flicks open
to a page where Ce'Nedra <Ce'Ne...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk> has
written...
>I always got the impression that Beldin spent more time as a hawk, than
>Belgarath did as a wolf.
I got that impression as well, he seemed more at home as hawk, more
practised somehow. I suppose he must have needed some inconspicuous form
of exercise and/or a means of hunting while watching Zedar for 500
years.
Azash
In the candlelit library of the darkened Keep, a book flicks open
>We don't really know how much tampering the prophecy did, but from what
>we see of the characters, the couples won't split up, but Beldin leaving
>the sorcerers is hardly the same as Belgarath and Poldera splitting up;
>anyhow, wolves mate for life, no ? ;-)
I'd say it was the same. You don't spend thousands of years with people
you consider to be your only family and friends in the world and just
get up and go away never to speak again.
>Everyone will *move on* that's what the LP was about, paths will diverge,
>things will change - that's what 'grat and co were fighting for all their
>lives.
You're saying it as if the sorcerors staying together was some sort of
chore, and not because they all loved each other. They might want events
to move along, but I doubt they were fighting to get away from each
other. Besides, if Zedar managed to leave, I don't see why any of the
others couldn't in those thousands of years.
Castellan
David Glasser wrote in message <
>
>All two females?
>
Yes <shamefaced> it isn't much of a sample, but I guess it's all we've got.
Unless you have 3½ counting Vella and Ce'Nedra :-)
Ce'Nedra
Ce'Nedra touched her fingers to her amulet, and heard Dom Wynn
<domini...@blackwell.co.uk> say:
>go away for three days and see what happens.....
>
>Ce'Nedra wrote:
>>
>
>oh yes he does: he can't permanently change form (as discussed
>recently),
form (like Belgarath has on occasion) in that discussion.
As for permanently living in a different form (or mostly living in a
different form from that which you were born in), all we have to do is
look at Poledra to see that it is possible.
> and I have a feeling Beldin is far too much of an intelligent
>man just to run from his ugliness. It is his defining characteristic -
>it has shaped all he came to be: his start in life, his outcasting, his
>discovery of another family. To pretend that he is otherwise would be
>self deception of a fine order.
Then that is his *choice* to stay with his ugliness, rather than 'he has
to'
>> >2) Subjected to universal spite due to form
>> ..... he can change his form anytime....
>doesn't change the fact that if he was to wear his true form he would be
>reviled...
I don't quite see what this is meant to prove....?
Azash
In the candlelit library of the darkened Keep, a book flicks open
>> but if it was only _that_, why aren't there more of them? We know of
>> something like 10 sorcerers (Belgarath, Zedar, Belmakor, Beldin,
>> Belsambar, Belkira, Beltira, Senji, Polgara, Poledra) (I might have
>> missed some)
>
>Belgarion & Durnik. And, to answer the question of why there are so few, 2
>words:
Chamdar, Urvon, Ctuchik, Belzedar
Azash
In the candlelit library of the darkened Keep, a book flicks open
>All two females?
Zandramas (?)
Daniel Peters
The small spark that is me got ignited by the fiery remarks of
Dom Wynn, who uttered on Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:32:01 +0100 the following:
[William Horwood writing "Duncton Tales" and "Callanish"]
> yup: the same...tho' with a vastly different content.
Vastly different indeed. But I liked both immensely, although I haven't
read all of the "Duncton" books - How many are there? Six at least. In
fact I found the two that I /have/ read so good, that I seriously
considered buying all. (I didn't yet do it) Our library yet again had
only part of a series - I believe, they do it intentionally to bully
people in _buying_ the books instead of lending them from the library...
Daniel
P.S. Sorry for the off-topicness. I just _had_ to statte that. :)
My name is Legion
On Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:03:59 GMT, Az...@shannara.DRUID.co.uk (Azash)
wrote:
>In the candlelit library of the darkened Keep, a book flicks open
>to a page where gla...@NOSPAMuscom.com (David Glasser) has written...
>
>>All two females?
>
>Zandramas (?)
Does Vordai count?
2c throwing contest!
Azash
In the candlelit library of the darkened Keep, a book flicks open
>Dejanews to find the final conclusion. Whatever it was, I bet people
>still argued against it anyway.
>But that's *my* conclusion.
>Why would you disagree?
Gimme some time to browse over the Feldegast bits again, I distinctly
remember concluding to myself that it was a transformation.
>>when greeting a... _superior_. [the Elder God glances up briefly to see
>>if his little speech has had the desired effect]
>
>[the Queen gives a sweet smile, and mutely curtseys with great sweeping
>gestures, but with every precise movement of her body shrieking
>rebellion. As soon as the 'Druid' is out of sight, her fingers fly to
>her throat....]
>used. But don't worry, I've got it all arranged for you. Just come home,
>and I've got a little job for you.....'
>
>[Satisfied the queen sticks her tongue out in the direction the 'Druid'
>was last seen.]
[It was late in the afternoon of the following day when the Queen found
herself in the presence of the Elder God once again.
His eyes were closed peacefully. He was leaned back in his chair,
savouring the sensations of his new-found body when he heard the soft
clink of porcelain. Slowly, he opened his eyes and straightened in his
chair. He smiled to himself as he saw who it was that had disturbed his
rest. It was the little Rivan Queen, come to serve him his afternoon
tea. As ordered.
"Put it on the table." The way his eyes ran over her as she bent to put
the tray down made her want to scream. Show no weakness, she told
herself firmly. That's what he wants.
"Very good." The Elder God spoke slowly, as if she were his pet, or a
little child being taught. As she controlled her rage she eyed the
dagger that lay on the table, thinking that maybe, if she was quick
enough...
"Uh-uh-uh." The once-Druid waved his finger in front of her nose.
"Naughty thoughts," the God grinned. Ce'Nedra imagined that a dragon's
prey saw more pleasant grrins than that. Seemingly satisfied, the God
settled back into his former restful pose. "You may go," he announced
with a dismissive wave of his hand as he closed his eyes.
But she didn't move. This was intolerable! Who was this - this
interloper to tell her what to do, to treat her like a slave! She was
Queen of the World! She stood there in silent anger, her fists clenched
at her side as she imagined the things she would do to the hated Elder
God.
The God was still a few moments, then one eye flicked open. When he saw
she was still there he stood up slowly. The silence that followed was
broken by the sound of his chair clattering to the floor behind him.
All trace of self-satisfied humour was gone from the once-Druid's face
now, replaced by a barely restrained fury that seemed to seethe just
under his skin.
"I said," the Elder God gritted his teeth, speaking with a calm that was
as silent as an asp in long grass. "YOU MAY GO". Ce'Nedra's blood ran
cold as the God's true voice issued from the once-Druid's lips. His
baleful glare transfixed her like a butterfly on a collector's board.
For a moment she thought he was going to kill her right there. But then
he suddenly looked away, as if distracted. As if sensing something. A
movement in the air, a vibration of hte ether. He stared off to one
side, eyes unfocused, his tongue moistening his lips. Then he smirked.
Quicker then her eyes could follow, his one good arm swept up to give
her a ringing slap. She felt her eyes flood with tears as the blow
landed, the force of it sending her sprawling against the far wall. She
had to bite her lip to stop herself from sobbing; it hurt so much!
She tried to pick herself up, but had to stop as the dizziness washed
over her. As she knelt on all fours against the wall, she could feel his
hate-filled stare on her, burning away her own anger at him and
replacing it with a cold fear. But what she couldn't feel was what was
going on inside the Druid. With that slap, something had come alive,
something had come awake. If she had looked up then, she would have seen
a look of uncertainty cross the once-Druid's face. She looked up a
moment later. But he wasn't looking at her any morer. He was looking at
the doorway. Her eyes swept to follow his icy gaze. There was a figure
there. Even through the mist of her tears, she recognised it.
It was Garion! Dear, sweet Garion!
"HELLO. BOY." The Elder God sneered, drawing the word out, infusing each
letter with contempt and derision. From where she crouched, the Queen
could almost feel the hatred flowing out of the God in tangible waves.
With a roar of anger, the Elder God threw the table in front of him
aside as if it were made of paper, sending a spray of warm tea cascading
over the Rivan Queen.
The Rivan King rushed at the Elder God, blue flame igniting along the
length of the Sword of the Rivan King. With a casual flick of his wrist,
a sword seemed to appear in the Elder God's hand. Cthrek Goru! But where
had that come from? The combatants met in the centre of the room, the
clash of swords sending shards of magic raining down in the shadows.
Together they danced the dance of death, swords wheeling, magic flaring.
One relying on training in a dozen different styles from the best, the
other on a thousand years of practise and knowledge. Duck, parry,
thrust. It all seemed so fast to Ce'Nedra, the swords and fighters a
vague blur of motion amidst the crackle of raw energy. Clasping her
hands to her lips he prayed.
The battle wore on for what seemed like hours; the combatants were so
evely matched. Then the deciding blow was struck. With a sudden feint,
and then a sweep the Elder God sacrificed his own weapon in an attempt
to rob the other of his. It worked. The two massive swords hooked, then
flew across the room and shattered through the thick glass of a window,
disappearing into the world outside.
For an instant Garion was unsure of what to do. An instant too long.
Before he had time to gather his will, the Elder God lashed out with the
blue fire of the Druid magic. Like a thing alive it pounded into the
young King's chest, the force of it sending him flying into the wall
behind. There was an audible crack of bones as his body made contact
with the scorched stone.
The young King lay in the corner, unmoving, smoke rising from his
clothes where the Druid fire had burned them. "Garion!" Ce'Nedra cried,
starting for him. But she couldn't, she was frozen where she crouched,
whether by fear or some dark magic of the Elder God she didn't know. But
she couldn't move. As if her cry had reminded him of her presence, the
Elder God's eyes swept across the room to where she was.
The eyes! So evil!
She felt herself quiver with terror as she looked into those eyes. Those
eyes that burned like fiery red embers. She suddenly wished she hadn't
spoken at all.
The Elder God suddenly chuckled to himself, a cold, mirthless sound that
chilled Ce'Nedra to the marrow.
"I NEVER REALISED WHAT A COMELY YOUNG WENCH YOU ARE", the Elder God
leered.
Those eyes! The hunger in those eyes!
The pale redhead wished the wall behind her would open up and let her
through.
"A LITTLE SCRAWNY, BUT CERTAINLY VERY PRETTY. PERHAPS WHEN I HAVE
DESPATCHED OF THIS BOY..."
"No." She whimpered, her voice breaking. "Please Garion, get up.
Please." She pleaded quietly. "Eriond, if you can hear me..."
The Elder God threw back his head and laughed, a laugh filled with
contempt and hatred.
"NO-ONE CAN HELP YOU NOW. YOU ARE MINE." The Elder God began to stride
towards her purposefully. "YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER THAN TO BE SO...SILLY"
Ce'Nedra wasn't sure what happened next, it was as if it was almost a
reflex action; her hand grabbed the nearest cup from the floor, and
hurled it with all her might at the Dark God, willing him to strike him
down as if doing so would make it happen.
But he was too quick - cat-quick he ducked and the cup shattered
uselessly against the wall behind.
"No-one calls me..." her shrill shriek was forgotten as she caught sight
of the once-Druid's face. The sneer was gone, replaced by a look of
anguish so strong that tears streamed openly from his eyes. And the
eyes, gone was the cold, calculating, malevolent rage, instead there was
almost a warm hint of sly mischief, almost a smile...
In that one frozen moment, it seemed as though...no...it couldn't
be...but he was...
Out of the corner of her eye she saw movement, it was Garion, he had
gotten up and was running at the once-Druid!
"Garion! No!" she screamed, rushing to block his path.
But it was too late, the Rivan King's charge carried him bodily into the
once-Druid, and in an entanglement of limbs, both tumbled onto the sill
behind them. But they didn't stop there, the Rivan King had misjusdged
the once-Druid's strength. He had overestimated, it was as if his
opponent had given up and offered no resistance!
Ce'Nedra's heart gave a lurch as both bodies disappeared. With a
horrified cry she rushed to the window, her face ashen, knowing that it
was a sheer drop of a thousand feet to the dark rocks below.
The wind whipped at her hair, lashing it against her face in stinging
blows, the rain blinding her, the cold adding to the ice that was
already forming in her heart. Brushing her curls from her hair in
desperation she searched...Garion...where...
Relief flooded across her like a warm tide. The Sword of Riva was
embedded to the hilt in the wall of the Citadel not three feet down, and
holding on to the hilt was Garion, smiling up at her as if nothing had
happened. She felt her tears well up again as he pulled himself up onto
the thick sill of the window. She looked deeply into his eyes, then
kissed him fiercely. She held him then, vowing never to let go, her own
tears warming her cheeks against the bitter cold.
It was as they cradled each other, framed against the steely sky, his
warmth flowing into her body, his heart beating next to her very own,
that she felt her gaze pulled down to the unforgiving rocks below. To
where the breakers pounded themselves mercilessly against the cliffs. To
where nothing alive moved except for a single albatross. As it wheeled
in the wind, its mournful cry floated out across the sea. A sea as grey
as tears, and as cold as fate. ]
Walter de Bruin
Dom Wynn <domini...@blackwell.co.uk> schreef in artikel
<35337FB3...@blackwell.co.uk>...
> > So was I. Your message very much coincided with my reaction to his
> > arguments. But as Sephrenia so loves to say: "Let's not fall back on
logic
> > if we don't have to..."
>
> don't you just love being talked about in the third person?
Absolutely. Gives you all kinds of chances to say nasty things as well..
<g>
> well being a Virgo I have never seen the other side :)
>
> <sernip!>
Oooookay. I don't think we want to discuss this part any further... <g>
> > about Grat, Pol, etc. He wouldn't just give up all contact with them
> > > like that.
> >
> > Exactamente! My point exactly. I think only Eddings himself can tell us
the
> > real story behind it.
>
> but perhaps he *did*. This really depends on your view point of the
> story. If you accept that the various 'talented' individuals are now
> going to age in a normal, if slightly 'longevified' (ha! new word!) way,
I don't. And I think they won't. I can't exactly put my finger on it, but
somehow it doesn't seem logic...
Wait! I remember.
It's the same line I quoted earlier. The one about nobody being able to
take the powers away. Since the immortality is part of it....
> and that things in Eriondworld are going to return to normal, then I
> would argue that things are going to change: that the brotherhood will
> begin to go its own ways....that the companions now can return to what
> they were doing before they were used as the PoL's tools. Some may
> become the tools of Eriond, but most will drift off..
Interesting pov. I care to disagree though. They will all remain Aldur's
disciples, after all, at least until the Gods finally will depart for good.
And maybe they'll join them in their trip, like the Delphae followed
Edaemus?
--
TTFN,
Walter
(w...@worldonline.nl)
"How do you spell 'Prophecy'?"
"I don't."
Walter de Bruin
> > > 1) he has to live several thousand years in a form he despises
> >
> > Granted. Yet, to quote Polgara (or Belgarath, I can't remember):
> > 'He despises his form, so he ignores it.'
>
> I ignore the fact I am quite a small chap. Doesn't change the fact that
> it shapes my attitudes to the world, and the world's to me....being
> short doesn't annoy me, but being ostracised by humanity might get a
> little tiresome.
Okay, but do you actually _despise_ your form? I used to be quite smal,l
until I was about 14, but it never really got to me.
Beldin manages to get away from him being ostracised by reasoning out
Aldur's location and geting there. There's no real indication about it, but
I gather he's quite young when that happens. He might have been the butt of
a few jokes on his way there, but all ion all, Beldin lived his life before
Aldur (BA <g>) quite apart from the rest of mankind. His early years in the
forrest and his latter years in the Vale.
>
> > > 2) Subjected to universal spite due to form
> >
> > Bull.
>
> Why thank you. A simple 'I disagree' would have done.
Sorry.
>
> >That happened when he was a boy. The moment he entered Aldur's
> > service, that stopped. His brothers never spited him and when he went
out
> > into the world he even _used_ his deformity to blend right in.
> > 'People can't see behind the hump on my back.'
>
> Did all the things that shaped you into an adult cease to matter once
> you turned 21? (or 18 or whatever). If they did then you are a unique
> man. I think the reference to 'seeing beyond the hump' is also a
> reflection of Beldin's self knowledge of being an outsider: just cos it
> can work to his benefit doesn't mean that he is happy about it IMHO.
Okay. But I still think the soup isn't eaten as hot as it's served. A mere
30 years (let's take a big marge) of spiting as opposed to 6K years of
being loved doesn't sound to bad to me. Okay, so maybe he did acquire a
little trauma from it, but surely, in 6,000 years even the most inground
trauma will be washed away.
>
> > > 3) dedicates his long life to a God without reward and has sacraficed
> >
> > 'Scuse me? Without reward? I think being able to turn mountains inside
out,
> > change shape and live for a few thousand years is _quite_ rewarding.
>
> His powers are not some kind of compensation for being ostracised: they
I'm not so sure about that. Belgarath (and the others, too) definitely feel
a 'calling' towards the Vale. There must have been a reason for that.
> are given so that he can be a disciple of aldur (this leads on to the
> whole sticky question concerning 'talent' being god-given or just a
> natural thing).
That's a discussion we might start in November <g>. But doesn't B. say
somewhere in the Bel that the talent is latent in everybody? Even the fact
that Durnik becomes a sorcerer after his resurrection isn't too certainly
an act of Aldur. It might have been Garion as well, who dribbled some of
his powers into Durnik. Or it might have been the Orb. Or Eriond.
As a result he gains a family but it is a surrogate
> relationship for the one he lost as a deformed boy: given the chance I
> am not surprised he was prepared to let everything go and enter into a
> relationship, as an equal, with some-one who loved him. I know it would
Did Vella _really_ love him? Or did she love his ability to fly?
> be nice to think that V&B lived onwards as two 'talented' humanoids but
> my bet is that they stayed as hawks (corrobarated slightly by the ending
> of the mal) and gradually forsook all human consciousness. I think that
> this is entirely consistent with the experience of Beldin, tho' it is
> presented in a very overblown romantic way.
Agreed on the last part, but not on the first. I still can't swallow the
fact that beldin ran away from the only family he ever had, just to spend a
few years (we haven't decided on Vella's mortality after all) with someone
he absolutely has nothing in common with, except their love for flying.
>
> > > much for friends (a millenia or so sitting on a mountain for a
> > > start...bringing up Pol for seconds :)
> >
> > He _chose_ to sit on that mountain. Besides, it gave him a chance to
work
> > things out (like why 2 and 2 make 4 or why female sorcerers work
> > differently).
>
> he did it cos it was his _duty_.
It says that nowhere. As far as I can see, Beldin chooses to keep a eye on
Zedar and Torak, because the stirrin of the latter may be the first sign
the Godsl;ayer has arrived.
They all do, and none of them have much
> in the way of individual will. They love their master but they have
> certain duties that go along with their position. Beldin finally gets a
> chance to escape from duty, as do all of them, in varying ways, at the
> end of the novel...
> 2+2 was a way of occupying the time..
I'm still not so sure about that.
> > > 4) unable to enter into any meaningful relationship with other people
> > > (no time, ugly as sin)
> >
> > I wouldn't call his relationship with the other sorcerers (or Aldur)
> > unmeaningful, do you?
>
> nope, but it is like the difference between the workaholic whose whole
> life (Friends, loved ones etc) is orientated around his occupation, and
> others who may be have interests outside of that...
Aw, come on. He raised Beldaran and Polgara until Belg got back and he
clearly has feelings for them and his brothers that go beyond the fact that
they're his colleagues (so to speak).
>
> > > 5) endowed with powers beyond imagining
> >
> > So?
> >
> > > 6) endowed with fantastic creativity
> >
> > So?
>
> just presenting the info so that it can seem to be moving towards a
> grand point in a logical format :)
I'm holding my breath... <turning blue>
> > > Mix these things togther and then add
> > >
> > > 1) love of hawk form
> > > 2) Finds relationship with equal
> >
> > Equal? I don't see Velda change shape. HE changes it FOR her! besides,
> > ddings quite smoothly glosses over Velda's life expectancy. Wouldn't on
> > Velda apply what Belgarath says to Polgara about Ontrose?
>
> Your logic fails at this point surely?
<Scratch, scratch> Does it? Where?
Ontrose and Polgara relationship
> was never likely to occurr:
Oh? Says who? Polgara was more than willing to get into it. Okay, we know
from BtS that it wasn't meant to be, but Pol didn't know that!
as the lessons of Durnik & Polgara and
> Belgarath and Poledra show, partnerships of this kind are between equals
Exactly. So, what happens to Vella? It's not possible for Beldin to become
less, because belg says at the end of the Bel:
"Since there's no way he [Aldur] could remove your power...."
EEG (Corgi edition), p.359.
> (as demonstrated by the whole hoohaa regarding Durnik's talent). Thus
> Vella was an equal
Huh? Where did that conclusion come from?
and Ontrose was never likely to succeed. I would have
> said that Vella transported herself...like Poledra did when she had been
> following Grat around long enough.
Explain, please.
> > > When you think about it what ties him to the rest of humanity is very
> > > little indeed. He does not love it/feel tied to by duty it like Grat
> > > seems to. Plus he finally gets a 'life': a girlfriend, more spare
time
> > > etc etc.
> >
> > I agree on 'the rest of humanity'. But he managed to live with that for
> > over 6,000 years without becoming any less by it.
>
> doesn't mean he likes it - he has a purpose and a 'family' to support
> him. Doesn't replace the real thing.
Okay. But I think even Beldin has enough ties to the rest of mankind to be
very hesitant indeed to let it all behind. After all, he joins Belgarath in
his search for the Sardion, he helps Belg quiet things down after Garion's
thunderstorm and so on. If he really wouldn't care, I think he'd have
followed Belzambar and Belmakor long before.
> > Okay. I don't deny him his right to change form, but I do choke on the
line
> > 'And then they were gone, never again to return.' SoK, p. 353.
>
> Pathos does reduce the impact somewhat, but I think Eddings was trying
> to make a point about him being able to put away the fairly naff life he
> has been lumbered with..
But WHY? That's my point. It simply doesn't fit Beldin.
> > I don't think running solves a problem. And I don't see Beldin as
someone
> > who takes the short and easy road out of a problem, either.
>
> nope. that is why he sticks around for 6K years. But finally he
> completes the task that he is allotted to do and 'retires' with the
> dolly bird. Makes perfect sense to me.
Doesn't to me. Especially considering the fact that Eddings leaves everyone
in the dark about Vella's life expectancy and such.
Walter de Bruin
> > I always had a problem with that. Can a relationship be based on that?
>
> <suspicious look> are you suggesting that people can only be physically
> attracted to each other?
<innocent whistling>
Would I do that?
But no, I don't. I just think that just a shared love for flying is a
little scant to build a relationship upon.
> > But for how long? She's not immortal, you know.
>
> But the argument could be that she *may* be..
Based on what?
Walter de Bruin
Ce'Nedra <Ce'Ne...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk> schreef in artikel
<QWHOAlBa...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk>...
>
> able to visit. I don't think he says anything along the lines of 'I'll
> never see you again' to any of them. Okay, he says they won't need
he says to Durnik:
"It looks like you're going to replace me."
> Thoughts? :)
hardly ever. :)
Walter de Bruin
> >Yes, but only because he was already spending his time as a wolf. Beldin
> >occassionally may be a hawk, but hardly ever for weeks (or days) on end.
At
> >least, as far as I can determine.
>
> I always got the impression that Beldin spent more time as a hawk, than
> Belgarath did as a wolf.
On what do you base that? Come to think of it, what does Beldin do with all
his time after Garion killed Torak? he occassionally swoops in, walks in or
appears, but what is his task during those years?
Senji
On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Azash wrote:
> In the candlelit library of the darkened Keep, a book flicks open
> to a page where Cho-Hag <cho...@stronghold.algaria.gov> has written...
>
> >> but if it was only _that_, why aren't there more of them? We know of
> >> something like 10 sorcerers (Belgarath, Zedar, Belmakor, Beldin,
> >> Belsambar, Belkira, Beltira, Senji, Polgara, Poledra) (I might have
> >> missed some)
> >
> >Belgarion & Durnik. And, to answer the question of why there are so few, 2
> >words:
>
> Chamdar, Urvon, Ctuchik, Belzedar
>
Zandramas, A-wassizname (Grolim guy who tried to take Urgit to the place
that was no more, but ended up with Nathel)
Senji.
Senji
On 16 Apr 1998, Walter de Bruin wrote:
> On what do you base that? Come to think of it, what does Beldin do with all
> his time after Garion killed Torak? he occassionally swoops in, walks in or
> appears, but what is his task during those years?
>
Keeping an eye on the Angraks.
Dom Wynn
Ce'Nedra wrote:
> > >1) he has to live several thousand years in a form he despises
> >oh yes he does: he can't permanently change form (as discussed
> >recently),
> And I've seen no one prove that he can't change into a different human
> form (like Belgarath has on occasion) in that discussion.
but surely it would be like any other mutation - if he changed into
Feldegast permanently then it might remove some of his other 'Beldinic'
chararcteristics: he would become a permanent raconteur for example,
potentially forgeting the powers that he has perhaps?...developing the
characteristics of another person may dilute his original personality.
Beldin may be unhappy with his form but he may not want to do something
as final as just changing his personality?
> As for permanently living in a different form (or mostly living in a
> different form from that which you were born in), all we have to do is
> look at Poledra to see that it is possible.
for that matter how do we know what will happen to the Grats'?
I think this all is tied in with how we each envisage the end of the
books. I honestly think that, as I have mentioned elsewhere, there is
going to be a general dissapation of the group: Belgarion & Ce Nedra
will get old raising their children and then die at a very ripe old age:
maybe long enough for Ce's tree to get old & die. Durnik & Polgara will
get old raising kids and then die at a normal age - polgara will age
normally. Similarly I always thought in my minds eye that Grat & Edra
may change into wolves and spend the rest of their lives froliking like
so....
Beldin's fate fits in nicely with this and is fairly consistent: quest
done, journey over, story ends....
the ties and purpose that bound our heroes together gradually loosen and
they each get their just rewards - which in the case of Beldin is a
break from what is a bloody awful life...
as far as edra is concerned: well her situation is completely influenced
by her relationship with UL and the choice - who knows if the laws
concerning long term change apply to her. I am basing my points on what
happens 'normally' to sorcerors when changing...
> > and I have a feeling Beldin is far too much of an intelligent
> >man just to run from his ugliness. It is his defining characteristic -
> >it has shaped all he came to be: his start in life, his outcasting, his
> >discovery of another family. To pretend that he is otherwise would be
> >self deception of a fine order.
> Then that is his *choice* to stay with his ugliness, rather than 'he has
> to'
ok - but is this a 'choice'? I am just trying to drag this back to the
original point: why he flew off. He can stay ugly or change his current
form - either are options which are fairly painful. OTOH he can put all
that, and the associations contained therein, behind him and start a new
life...
> >> >2) Subjected to universal spite due to form
> >> ..... he can change his form anytime....
> >doesn't change the fact that if he was to wear his true form he would be
> >reviled...
> I don't quite see what this is meant to prove....?
hmmmm - this was tied in with the reason why, putting aside your points
about metamorphises, Beldin might feel little attachment for sticking
around, as per my points above. I don't usually get involved in such a
long discussion but this thread has struck a chord with me as far as
larger issues are concerned. The end of the Bel/Mal has always struck me
as something beyond the 'they all lived happily ever after' theme. I
liked the idea from the LoTR - a situation where things just didn't end
in the stasis of 'and all the couples were perfectly happy forever &
ever Amen'. The idea that people do get tired of the burdens they have
had to carry (ala Frodo in the LoTR) and the end of the story is not a
nirvana. Maybe I am a hopeless Bathotic Romantic but *I* liked the idea
of Beldin finally putting several millenia worth of pain behind him and
doing his own thang. His is just a more extreme version of what Pol &
Durnik get up to... :)
Dom
deb....@miami.edu
In article <01bd6931$dde617c0$LocalHost@default>,
"Walter de Bruin" <w...@worldonline.nl> wrote:
>
> Ce'Nedra <Ce'Ne...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk> schreef in artikel
> <oWCAQ8BO...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk>...
>
> > >Yes, but only because he was already spending his time as a wolf. Beldin
> > >occassionally may be a hawk, but hardly ever for weeks (or days) on end.
> At
> > >least, as far as I can determine.
> >
> > I always got the impression that Beldin spent more time as a hawk, than
> > Belgarath did as a wolf.
>
> his time after Garion killed Torak? he occassionally swoops in, walks in or
> appears, but what is his task during those years?
>
they kidnapped Garan and once things started again he's just there to report
what other folks are doing. Before Garion Beldin spent most of his time
watching I think it was Zedar looking after Torak while he was sleeping.
Humbly woodpixie-
Dom Wynn
Walter de Bruin wrote:
>
> > > So was I. Your message very much coincided with my reaction to his
> > > arguments. But as Sephrenia so loves to say: "Let's not fall back on logic
> > > if we don't have to..."
> >
> > don't you just love being talked about in the third person?
>
> Absolutely. Gives you all kinds of chances to say nasty things as well..
> <g>
:)
ok...
hmmmmmm
well you know Ce'? well she
<THWACK><BANG>ouch!<SLAP><SMASH>)..er..forget I was going to say
anything..
> > well being a Virgo I have never seen the other side :)
> >
> > <sernip!>
>
> Oooookay. I don't think we want to discuss this part any further... <g>
:P
> > > about Grat, Pol, etc. He wouldn't just give up all contact with them
> > > > like that.
> > >
> > > Exactamente! My point exactly. I think only Eddings himself can tell us
> > > the real story behind it.
> >
> > but perhaps he *did*. This really depends on your view point of the
> > story. If you accept that the various 'talented' individuals are now
> > going to age in a normal, if slightly 'longevified' (ha! new word!) way,
>
> I don't. And I think they won't. I can't exactly put my finger on it, but
> somehow it doesn't seem logic...
>
> Wait! I remember.
>
> It's the same line I quoted earlier. The one about nobody being able to
> take the powers away. Since the immortality is part of it....
I think you may have to provide page numbers cos this has a whole load
of implications elsewhere: primarily concerning sorcery and the dreaded
immortality thread...
I have always held with the view that the Ps and purposes endowed
humanity with talent so that it would provide a base for the recruitment
of assistants/tools of prophecy. Once the split at the centre of the
Universe was resolved then everything went back to normal - which
includes mortality etc etc. The new P would presumably make sure that
everyone had a happy and long life, but certainly would not want the
perpetual presence of bunch of immortals swanning around his new world.
As I have always believed, the world Garion stands upon is purely (as is
mentioned once or twice) a platform for the resolution of a division.
Once the division is ended then the world starts to return to the format
of every other world in the cosmos...
> > and that things in Eriondworld are going to return to normal, then I
> > would argue that things are going to change: that the brotherhood will
> > begin to go its own ways....that the companions now can return to what
> > they were doing before they were used as the PoL's tools. Some may
> > become the tools of Eriond, but most will drift off..
>
> Interesting pov. I care to disagree though. They will all remain Aldur's
> disciples, after all, at least until the Gods finally will depart for good.
> And maybe they'll join them in their trip, like the Delphae followed
> Edaemus?
and become demi-gods themselves. God forbid <shudder>...the idea of the
Disciples as Gods seems a little strange :) eg Beltira & Belkira. I
still argue that the return to normality is more likely..but we will
probably have to leave it to Nov to resolve this :)
Dom
deb....@miami.edu
In article <353613EF...@blackwell.co.uk>,
Dom Wynn <domini...@blackwell.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I honestly think that, as I have mentioned elsewhere, there is
> going to be a general dissapation of the group: Belgarion & Ce Nedra
> will get old raising their children and then die at a very ripe old age:
> maybe long enough for Ce's tree to get old & die. Durnik & Polgara will
> get old raising kids and then die at a normal age - polgara will age
> normally. Similarly I always thought in my minds eye that Grat & Edra
> may change into wolves and spend the rest of their lives froliking like
>
actually have. Garion said look at Belgarath and then to look at Ce'Nedra
because of her being dryad. Wouldn't this mean that He expected to live as a
sorceror. I don't think that (I may be completely wrong) DE stated that
sorcerors are immortal. Didn't Belgarath say that he didnt know why he had
lived so long that he guessed because he still had something to do. Maybe
they only live to 10K and Belgarath has only 3K to go? LOL
Humbly submitted by
Woodpixie
Bernadette
Walter de Bruin wrote:
> SNIP
>
> On what do you base that? Come to think of it, what does Beldin do with all
> his time after Garion killed Torak? he occassionally swoops in, walks in or
> appears, but what is his task during those years?
Terrorizing Urvon? <BEG!>
Taiba
Bernadette
Walter de Bruin wrote:
> Agreed on the last part, but not on the first. I still can't swallow the
> fact that beldin ran away from the only family he ever had, just to spend a
> few years (we haven't decided on Vella's mortality after all) with someone
> he absolutely has nothing in common with, except their love for flying.
>
I wouldn't say that they have _nothing_ else in common... They do seem to
enjoy one-upmanship with each other in bawdy tales and swearing games.
<smirk!> Vella herself says to Yarblek, "This man was made for me." Even
though Eddings didn't get really into the details of the relationship, my
impression was that Vella does love Beldin for all his qualities, not just his
ability to fly. You really need to look at what type of person Vella is as
well. Most men (in my observations of a decade of married life and a half
dozen years of looking for Mr. Right) would find himself shocked by some facets
of her behavior; Beldin is not only not-shocked, but he appreciates the way she
is. He doesn't require her to change her actions or personality to fit an
expectation in his mind; she doesn't require him to do so either. Utter
acceptance of one person by another is a very important facet of true love.
I make no judgements on the "Never to return" statement; depends on how I'm
feeling at the time I read it, whether I think it's just hyperbole or actual
fact. :) For the most part, I think they'll fly back from time to time to
visit.
Cheers!
Taiba
Castellan
Walter de Bruin wrote in message <
>
>Okay. But I still think the soup isn't eaten as hot as it's served. A mere
>30 years (let's take a big marge) of spiting as opposed to 6K years of
>being loved doesn't sound to bad to me. Okay, so maybe he did acquire a
>little trauma from it, but surely, in 6,000 years even the most inground
>trauma will be washed away.
>
years. He is spending years, even centuries at a time spying on the
Angaraks, alot of whom have extreme views on racial purity, as well as
plenty of plain vanilla prejudice and bigotry. Even accounting for time
spent in hawk or Feldegast form, he will have an ever present reminder of
the affect his appearance causes. As anybody who has suffered bullying at
school will testify, all the love you receive at home cannot erase what
happens every weekday for X years, even though school peers mean nothing to
you.