Asharak/Chamdar and Belgarath
Jeffrey McClean
Hello all,
I am relatively new to this group, although I have been reading
it for a while, and I have posted a few comments.
I have a question, and I'm pretty sure it's a valid one...
When reading the Belgariad, Belgarath is fooled by Asharak --
that is, he doesn't know that he is actually Chamdar. He doesn't even
know that he is a Grolim. On page 156 of QofS..
"It would delay us," Wolf said. "Asharak-- whoever he is-- knows that
Polgara would stop to look for you...."
A little further down the page...
"Just who IS Asharak?" Hettar asked, his eyes narrowing.
"A Grolim, I expect,"Wolf said...
When reading just the Belgariad, this is no problem. By page 188, when
Belgarath actually sees Asharak/Chamdar, he recognizes him. Again, no
problem, but after reading BtS...
On page 540 (of BtS) a definite connection is made between Asharak the
Murgo and Chamdar the Grolim -- namely, they are one in the same.
Because of the ravaging of Drasnia, their intelligence service hadn't
made the connection, but finally they did, and Belgarath went to find
Asharak/Chamdar. In case anyone thinks Belgarath wasn't sure... read
page 545. He knew that Asharak was Chamdar and that he had been fooled.
Now, Belgarath has admitted himself that he is not the smartest man
alive, but he was rarely outwitted, and I don't think he would've
forgotten that Asharak was Chamdar, no matter how many thousand years
later it was.
On page 114 (of PoP), Garion and Silk even suggest that Asharak is a
Grolim. If anything, this should have tipped Belgarath off, but nope.
And when on page 216 Garion finally reveals that he knows Asharak, and
that the Grolim has been tampering with his mind it should have been
fairly obvious who he was. And even if they didn't make the connection
between Chamdar and Asharak, they should have known that Asharak was at
the least a Grolim when Polgara found his "work" in Garion's mind on page
219. In fact on page 233 everyone agrees that Asharak is a Grolim and
Belgarath says "He seems to be more than just a Grolim priest. I touched
his mind once--in Muros. It's not an ordinary mind." He had touched
Chamdar's mind before... Why didn't he recognize him?
Even if they somehow didn't make the connection that Asharak was Chamdar,
they knew at the conclusion of PoP that Asharak was a powerful Grolim.
Why by the next book had they all forgotten this?? And why didn't
Belgarath make the connection between Asharak and Chamdar?
Don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to down on Eddings.. I just don't
like when little details don't fit together. I feel like I'm being
cheated or something. Well, no matter what, Eddings is still one of my
favorite authors, but I just wish he would be more careful sometimes.
What does everyone else think about this? Am I missing something? Am I
wrong?
Jeff McClean
mgab...@iglou.com
>
<snip>
>
> Don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to down on Eddings.. I just don't
> like when little details don't fit together. I feel like I'm being
> cheated or something. Well, no matter what, Eddings is still one of my
> favorite authors, but I just wish he would be more careful sometimes.
>
> What does everyone else think about this? Am I missing something? Am I
> wrong?
>
> Jeff McClean
***BtS SPOILER WARNING***
First, I have not been on this newsgroup very long, so please forgive me if this is one of the subjects that have been beat to
death.
I agree with you totally. I enjoyed BtS very much, but there were MULTIPLE inconsistancies between it and the rest. On top
of the Asharak items you mentioned, I can think of a couple more just off the top o' me head. One big one being that through
most of the Belgariad, Belgarath has no idea where Zeder took Torak's body, but, as is was clearly shown in BtS, he knew
exactlly where Torak was because Beldin was sitting in the cave (in the form of a flea most of the time) watching and waiting
for any signs that Torak was stiring. At any rate, he reported the status to Belgarath many times through the years.
Another, more minor inconsistancy is the fact that all throughout BtS, all of them spoke to each other using theirs minds,
from very long distances, more often then they actually spoke in person!! However, in the Bel and Mal they wander around in
the dark many times and in many situations that could have been avoided by a simple telepathic thought. There was no less a
reason to keep quite in BtS then there was in the rest.
Knowing that BtS was written last, a couple slight inconsistancies might be expected just so DE can lead things a bit different
that he had intended originally, but there are too many major ones in BtS. I found myself wondering a few times weither he
went back and even looked at the Bel and Mal before he started BtS.
**steps down**
I just had to spew it, it had been building up ever since I started the Bel again, for the 3rd time ;)
I'm sure I will read BtS again as soon as I finish the Mal.
Matthew
lowell wilson
:
: Hello all,
:
: I am relatively new to this group, although I have been reading
: it for a while, and I have posted a few comments.
: I have a question, and I'm pretty sure it's a valid one...
: When reading the Belgariad, Belgarath is fooled by Asharak --
: that is, he doesn't know that he is actually Chamdar. He doesn't even
[very good arguments for inconsistency snipped]
The only thing I can think of, is that Belgarath doesn't want to scare/
worry Garion with too much knowledge about the stregnth of his foe
too soon. The problem with this, of course, is that they didn't seem
to be paying enough attention to Chamdar, especially if Belgarath
knew who he was, from BtS. Of course, even *after* they knew who he
was (the scene in Ran Borune's throne room), they still weren't concerned
about him, hence being caught unaware in the Wood of the Dryads.
(Of course, that could just have been a convenient device by Eddings
to allow the revelation of Garion's latent powers).
Lowell
One Slimy Hog
>Hello all,
> I am relatively new to this group, although I have been reading
>it for a while, and I have posted a few comments.
> I have a question, and I'm pretty sure it's a valid one...
> When reading the Belgariad, Belgarath is fooled by Asharak --
>that is, he doesn't know that he is actually Chamdar. He doesn't even
>Don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to down on Eddings.. I just don't
>like when little details don't fit together. I feel like I'm being
>cheated or something. Well, no matter what, Eddings is still one of my
>favorite authors, but I just wish he would be more careful sometimes.
>What does everyone else think about this? Am I missing something? Am I
>wrong?
> Jeff McClean
I will take the easiest case to argue - that is that Belgarath was being
liberal with the truth. I would say that Belgarath recognized Asharak as
Chamdar straight away, but chose to conceal his knowledge of this. Belgarath
was usually very happy to lie when the situation demanded it, and perhaps it
was necessary this time. What should he have said? - Should he (to take an
extreme case) have said to Garion "Look - this is Chamdar, the chap who killed
your parents."? In their company were clever people like Silk, who may have
been able to put the whole picture together if they had known Asharak's
identity. This is all very idle speculation of course...
Simon1
Justin Hall
>From: mgab...@iglou.com
>Subject: Re: Asharak/Chamdar and Belgarath
>Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 04:37:56 GMT
>First, I have not been on this newsgroup very long, so please forgive me if this is one of the
>subjects that have been beat to death.
>I agree with you totally. I enjoyed BtS very much, but there were MULTIPLE
>inconsistancies between it and the rest. On top of the Asharak items you
>mentioned, I can think of a couple more just off the top o' me head. One big
>one being that through most of the Belgariad, Belgarath has no idea where
>Zeder took Torak's body, but, as is was clearly shown in BtS, he knew
>exactlly where Torak was because Beldin was sitting in the cave (in the form
>of a flea most of the time) watching and waiting for any signs that Torak was
>stiring. At any rate, he reported the status to Belgarath many times through
>the years.
>Another, more minor inconsistancy is the fact that all throughout BtS, all of them spoke to
>each other using theirs minds, from very long distances, more often then
>they actually spoke in person!! However, in the Bel and Mal they wander
>around in the dark many times and in many situations that could have been
>avoided by a simple telepathic thought. There was no less a reason to keep
>quite in BtS then there was in the rest.
I actually wouldn't be surprised if they had been communicating the entire
time. But the twins and Beldin probably didn't know any more about what to do
than Belgarath did. Besides, communicating telepathically would alert most of
the grolims to where they were..
>Knowing that BtS was written last, a couple slight inconsistancies might be expected
> just so DE can lead things a bit different that he had intended originally,
>but there are too many major ones in BtS. I found myself wondering a few
>times weither he went back and even looked at the Bel and Mal before he
>started BtS.
I honestly am not very worried about inconsistencies; they're to be expected
when an author writes a prequel to a series he wrote 20 years before.
>**steps down**
>I just had to spew it, it had been building up ever since I started the Bel again, for the
>3rd time ;) I'm sure I will read BtS again as soon as I finish the Mal.
ok. completely understandable..:)
"Who owns a man? The one who rules him, or the one who pays him?" -Eriond
Justin "Skale" Hall hal...@one.net http://w3.one.net/~halldp/index.htm
Christopher Smith
> In article <Pine.HPP.3.91.960215...@scws38.harvard.edu> Jeffrey McClean <mcc...@scws38.harvard.edu> writes:
[text snipped]
> >Why by the next book had they all forgotten this?? And why didn't
> >Belgarath make the connection between Asharak and Chamdar?
[more text snipped]
> I will take the easiest case to argue - that is that Belgarath was being
> liberal with the truth. I would say that Belgarath recognized Asharak as
> Chamdar straight away, but chose to conceal his knowledge of this. Belgarath
> was usually very happy to lie when the situation demanded it, and perhaps it
> was necessary this time. What should he have said? - Should he (to take an
> extreme case) have said to Garion "Look - this is Chamdar, the chap who killed
> your parents."? In their company were clever people like Silk, who may have
> been able to put the whole picture together if they had known Asharak's
> identity. This is all very idle speculation of course...
>
> Simon1
I think a more likely solution is that the Prophecy caused Belgarath to
overlook the fact - like in the Mallorean where Belgarath wanted to have
a 'long talk' with Eriond, but kept 'forgetting' about it.
The Prophecy required Garion to have his confrontation with Chamdar so
that he could well and truly toast him, and start learning about his
'talent'. If Belgarath had realised that that Asharak was Chamdar he
would have gone out of his way to toast him himself, which is what the
Prophecy most certainly did not want; so the Prophecy caused Belgarath
to miss the connection.
**************************************************************************
* Chris Smith - Part II B.Sc. Computer Science at Southampton University *
*------------------------------------------------------------------------*
* email: cj...@ecs.soton.ac.uk or cjs...@soton.ac.uk *
* HTTP://whig.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~cjs94/cv.html *
*------------------------------------------------------------------------*
* "Be quiet! I order you to shut up." - Arthur (Holy Grail) *
**************************************************************************
Amy I. Sheldon
>> First, Jeffrey McClean <mcc...@scws38.harvard.edu> writes:
>
>[text snipped]
>
>> >Why by the next book had they all forgotten this?? And why didn't
>> >Belgarath make the connection between Asharak and Chamdar?
> Then One Slimy Hog (hi Simon!) replied:
>
>> I will take the easiest case to argue - that is that Belgarath was being
>> liberal with the truth. I would say that Belgarath recognized Asharak as
>> Chamdar straight away, but chose to conceal his knowledge of this. Belgarath
[text snipped]
Finally, Chris Smith weighed in with:
>I think a more likely solution is that the Prophecy caused Belgarath to
>overlook the fact - like in the Mallorean where Belgarath wanted to have
>a 'long talk' with Eriond, but kept 'forgetting' about it.
Chris and Simon have good explanations, but what I am hoping for is
a scene in the forthcoming _Polgara the Sorceress_ that goes something
like this:
Silk handed the manuscript back to Garion and turned to Belgarath.
"That was certainly interesting," he said, "but why did you write
that Chamdar was going under the name of Asharak when you discovered
that he was using a double?"
"Foreshadowing. I'm a storyteller - the audience knows that Asharak
and Chamdar were one and the same. Introducing yet another
pseudonym would have been too confusing," Belgarath replied.
"Well, yes, but it also makes the two of us look pretty stupid for
not recognizing who Asharak was when he first turned up on our
trail after the Orb was stolen." Silk sighed. "Of course, the
Wise and Venerable Eternal Man has no need to worry about his
reputation, but as a mere mortal, I find the whole matter rather
distressing."
(Yeah, I realize I don't do Eddings dialog well, but you get the
idea.)
Since _Belgarath the Sorcerer_ was a first-person narrative,
Eddings has the perfect out for any claims of inconsistences between
it and the other 10 books. Belgarath just changed the facts to
suit his story. It's the occasional inconsistencies within the
original 10 books that are a little harder to justify....
--
Amy I. Sheldon
ai...@po.cwru.edu
Shazza
<snip>
>Don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to down on Eddings.. I just don't
>like when little details don't fit together. I feel like I'm being
>cheated or something. Well, no matter what, Eddings is still one of my
>favorite authors, but I just wish he would be more careful sometimes.
>What does everyone else think about this? Am I missing something? Am I
>wrong?
> Jeff McClean
I have found on reading eddings, the whole point of the belgarath the
scorcerer fills in the other bits that are missing... you have to
remember you need to read the other books first & leave Belgarath
untill last, which I didn't do! Just because belgarath is so old & has
lived since the virtual begining of the time of the prophecies He can
not remember every small detail of every person he meats, every event
that happens.... I can't remember what I did last week let alone have
a memory spanning 7,000 years!! Give him a break!! He does manage 90%
of the time to get everything spot on so why complain? Use your
imagination more to fill in the bits that are missing or try to
imagine why there are little bits missing or minor errors.. The whole
point of being a good reader is trying to undersatnd what the author
is thinking as he writes the story for you! But this is only my
opinion! What does everyone else think?... See ya soon Shazza
==============================================================
Shazza - qua...@vossnet.co.uk
"...are you comfortable labeling me insane....."
"...Yes very comfortable..." SE7EN
Gemma Walker
-- snip--
> > When reading the Belgariad, Belgarath is fooled by Asharak --
> >that is, he doesn't know that he is actually Chamdar. He doesn't even
> >know that he is a Grolim. On page 156 of QofS..
>
> >"It would delay us," Wolf said. "Asharak-- whoever he is-- knows that
> >Polgara would stop to look for you...."
>
> >A little further down the page...
>
> >"Just who IS Asharak?" Hettar asked, his eyes narrowing.
> >"A Grolim, I expect,"Wolf said...
>
> >When reading just the Belgariad, this is no problem. By page 188, when
> >Belgarath actually sees Asharak/Chamdar, he recognizes him. Again, no
> >problem, but after reading BtS...
>
> >On page 540 (of BtS) a definite connection is made between Asharak the
> >Murgo and Chamdar the Grolim -- namely, they are one in the same.
> >Because of the ravaging of Drasnia, their intelligence service hadn't
> >made the connection, but finally they did, and Belgarath went to find
> >Asharak/Chamdar. In case anyone thinks Belgarath wasn't sure... read
> >page 545. He knew that Asharak was Chamdar and that he had been fooled.
>
> >Now, Belgarath has admitted himself that he is not the smartest man
> >alive, but he was rarely outwitted, and I don't think he would've
> >forgotten that Asharak was Chamdar, no matter how many thousand years
> >later it was.
>
> >
> >
> >Even if they somehow didn't make the connection that Asharak was Chamdar,
> >they knew at the conclusion of PoP that Asharak was a powerful Grolim.
> >Belgarath make the connection between Asharak and Chamdar?
>
> >
> >What does everyone else think about this? Am I missing something? Am I
> >wrong?
>
> > Jeff McClean
>
>
> liberal with the truth. I would say that Belgarath recognized Asharak as
> Chamdar straight away, but chose to conceal his knowledge of this. Belgarath
> was necessary this time. What should he have said? - Should he (to take an
> extreme case) have said to Garion "Look - this is Chamdar, the chap who killed
> your parents."? In their company were clever people like Silk, who may have
> been able to put the whole picture together if they had known Asharak's
> identity. This is all very idle speculation of course...
>
> Simon1
>
>
Asharak/Chamdar: in BtS page 647 Belgarath asks for Silks help in tracking down
Chamdar. He says 'There's a Grolim named Chamdar who usually goes by the
name of " Asharak the Murgo ". He was in Sendaria recently, and he did some
things there that seriously irritated me. As closely as I can determine, he recently
passed through Arendia, he was coming this way. I want him. Find him for me'
So Belgarath has told Silk that Asharak and Chamdar are the same person why
doesn't Silk remember, he's got a good memory for other things? Just thought I'd
mention it. What does everyone else think?
--
Gemma Walker
One Slimy Hog
>Hi I'm new reading this and I have another inconsistancy (excuse spelling!) about
>Asharak/Chamdar: in BtS page 647 Belgarath asks for Silks help in tracking down
>Chamdar. He says 'There's a Grolim named Chamdar who usually goes by the
>name of " Asharak the Murgo ". He was in Sendaria recently, and he did some
> things there that seriously irritated me. As closely as I can determine, he recently
>passed through Arendia, he was coming this way. I want him. Find him for me'
>So Belgarath has told Silk that Asharak and Chamdar are the same person why
>doesn't Silk remember, he's got a good memory for other things? Just thought I'd
>mention it. What does everyone else think?
>--
>Gemma Walker
Asharak was very good at playing with peoples' minds. He did it to Garion, and
Pol didn't notice, and in PoP, Silk makes some comment about his mind seemed
to have gone to sleep after having met Asharak in that Merchant's office.
Simon1