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Kimlan Lou-Hing

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Oct 18, 2001, 8:59:16 AM10/18/01
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I've just been reading over my David Eddings collection (I have read the
Belgaariaad and the Malloreean and am now reading through the Elenium again)
and was thinking.......

Do you think that Sparhawk and pals lived in the same world as Belgarion and
pals? And wouldnt it be interresting if during their travels they met up
with eachother?

Also, do you think that maybe Polgara and Sephrenia might be related? Even
if they arent, they may have some interesting conversations...*smile*

Just my thoughts on the books.....
--
Kimmie
kiml...@hotmail.com
http://www.darkgoddess.cjb.net


Relg

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Oct 18, 2001, 1:55:25 PM10/18/01
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Well, it is an interesting notion but it is pretty obvious that
Eddings intended it as two different worlds.

Magic works differently, geography is different, even the Gods
infrastructure is different.

Relg

Beldin

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Oct 18, 2001, 3:34:25 PM10/18/01
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Relg wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:59:16 +0100, "Kimlan Lou-Hing"

> wrote:
>
> >I've just been reading over my David Eddings collection (I have read the
> >Belgaariaad and the Malloreean and am now reading through the Elenium again)
> >and was thinking.......
> >
> >Do you think that Sparhawk and pals lived in the same world as Belgarion and
> >pals? And wouldnt it be interresting if during their travels they met up
> >with eachother?
> >
> >Also, do you think that maybe Polgara and Sephrenia might be related? Even
> >if they arent, they may have some interesting conversations...*smile*
>

> Well, it is an interesting notion but it is pretty obvious that
> Eddings intended it as two different worlds.
>
> Magic works differently, geography is different, even the Gods
> infrastructure is different.

Those items might be overcome if you assume a sufficiently large planet, where
on one continent / group of continents the secret of tW&tW was discovered,
while on the other they discovered that their gods could grant magic. The gods
would obviously be aware of each other, but might have an agreement to leave
each others areas alone.

The major problem with this is that at least in Eriondia there is no room for the

Sparhawkian continents. We know that the equator of this world is located
approximately at the latitude of Nyissa, and that Morindland reaches above the
polar circle. This allows us to make some educated guesses as to the general
size of the planet, and there simply wouldn't be room for three new continents
the size of what we've seen of Sparhawkia.

Sparhawkia is a little more tricky - I think that planet might be somewhat
larger,
than the planet of Eriondia, but I haven't really tried to compare scales or
anything - it's just a feeling based on Thalesia (arctic / polar location) and
Rendor
(tropic / equatorial).

--
Beldin

Please do not reply directly.
Instead reply to (t.f...@mail.dk)

This isn't right. This isn't even wrong.
Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague
(Thus speaks the quantum physicist)


Jason A Williams / Khendon

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Oct 18, 2001, 5:01:02 PM10/18/01
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On Thu, 18 Oct 2001 21:34:25 +0200, Beldin wrote:
>
>The major problem with this is that at least in Eriondia there is no room for the
>Sparhawkian continents. We know that the equator of this world is located
>approximately at the latitude of Nyissa, and that Morindland reaches above the
>polar circle. This allows us to make some educated guesses as to the general
>size of the planet, and there simply wouldn't be room for three new continents
>the size of what we've seen of Sparhawkia.

Are you sure? I'm sure we decided ages ago that there was *loads* of sea
between the sides of the map...

--
"While you're technically correct, you're quite wrong" - John Levon

Jason A Williams / Khendon <ja...@khendon.org.uk>

Kheldar

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Oct 18, 2001, 6:10:58 PM10/18/01
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Beldin, i get the impression the world of the elenium is definitely much
larger....if nothing else, Eddings writes that the journey times are far
greater than they would be for the belgariad.

the planet could just have a much larger land mass, that would explain
it, but i definitely get the impression of a much larger radius.

(p.s. sorry about the nick Kheldar, but i use this for my other
newsgroups and changing it will be a pain, just this once eh...)

Mark
--
I am DirtyHarry of Borg... Go ahead and resist us punk! MAKE OUR
DAY!!!!!!!!!
m_s_...@yahoo.com
hatfiel...@hotmail.com
m.s....@durham.ac.uk

Beldin

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Oct 18, 2001, 6:30:39 PM10/18/01
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Jason A Williams / Khendon wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Oct 2001 21:34:25 +0200, Beldin wrote:
> >
> >The major problem with this is that at least in Eriondia there is no room for the
> >Sparhawkian continents. We know that the equator of this world is located
> >approximately at the latitude of Nyissa, and that Morindland reaches above the
> >polar circle. This allows us to make some educated guesses as to the general
> >size of the planet, and there simply wouldn't be room for three new continents
> >the size of what we've seen of Sparhawkia.
>
> Are you sure? I'm sure we decided ages ago that there was *loads* of sea
> between the sides of the map...

I base this on the assumption that the axial inclination of Eriondia is similar to
that of Earth (the climatic data seems to support this) and that the eccentricity
of the planetary shape is negligible.

Under those circumstances the map of Mallorea at the start of SoK covers
about 44% of the planets circumference from the eastern edge of the Isle of
Verkat to the eastern edge of the map.
The map of southern Cthol Murgos at the start of Part 3 of KotM covers
another 25% of the circumference from the western map edge to the
east coast of the Isle of Verkat (this is based on the distance from equator
to the tip of the south westernmost of the small islands off the coast of
the Urga peninsula relative to the equator - antarctic circle distance
known from the map at the start of Part 2 of KotM).
Based on a comparison of scales I estimate that we know another 5%
to the west coast of the Isle of the Winds.
This totals a known 74% of the circumference of the planet - the
remaining 26% might or might not contain any significant land masses,
but it is definitely insufficient to contain anything of the scale of the
known part of Sparhawkia.

Unfortunately there is no scale on the maps and I haven't had the
energy to dig out any distances from the text - we might do that
later. If we should compare it to Sparhawkia we would still need to
know if they used the same 'mile' in both worlds, so it wouldn't
really matter all that much.

--
Beldin
Please reply to (t.f...@mail.dk)

The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the
opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.
Niels Bohr

Nicnet

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Oct 18, 2001, 6:29:24 PM10/18/01
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<snipped>

> >
> > Sparhawkia is a little more tricky - I think that planet might be
somewhat
> > larger,
> > than the planet of Eriondia, but I haven't really tried to compare
scales or
> > anything - it's just a feeling based on Thalesia (arctic / polar
location) and
> > Rendor
> > (tropic / equatorial).
> >
> > --
> > Beldin

> <snip>

> Beldin, i get the impression the world of the elenium is definitely much
> larger....if nothing else, Eddings writes that the journey times are far
> greater than they would be for the belgariad.
>
> the planet could just have a much larger land mass, that would explain
> it, but i definitely get the impression of a much larger radius.
>
> (p.s. sorry about the nick Kheldar, but i use this for my other
> newsgroups and changing it will be a pain, just this once eh...)
>
> Mark

I find one main problem with this theory. The Orb and the Bhelliom on the
same planet. Either one of them could destroy it and surely one would react
to the use of the other one. There is the theory that Sparhawk and co
existed millenia after Belgarath and co and the structure of the continents
has had time to change since it was put back on the right path. Off the top
of my head I cant remember the final fate of the Orb but isnt it possible
that the Bhelliom IS the Orb changed through time. Both have a concious
mind

Nicnet


Beldin

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Oct 19, 2001, 8:02:44 AM10/19/01
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Nicnet wrote:

> <snipped>


> Kheldar said:
> > Beldin, i get the impression the world of the elenium is definitely much
> > larger....if nothing else, Eddings writes that the journey times are far
> > greater than they would be for the belgariad.

That is my impression too. My point is that the planetary size of
Eriondia is such that there is no room for the world of Sparhawkia.
We do know quite a lot about the planet of Eriondia - we have been
provided with the positions of both the equator, the arctic circle and
the antarctic circle - that is the reason why I chose this planet as
the basis for my computations - see also my reply to Khendon.

> > the planet could just have a much larger land mass, that would explain
> > it, but i definitely get the impression of a much larger radius.
> >
> > (p.s. sorry about the nick Kheldar, but i use this for my other
> > newsgroups and changing it will be a pain, just this once eh...)

Personally I don't mind - it is your own problem that Kheldar is
probably the least "real" personality ;-)
I hope that Silk can live with it ...

> I find one main problem with this theory. The Orb and the Bhelliom on the
> same planet. Either one of them could destroy it and surely one would react
> to the use of the other one. There is the theory that Sparhawk and co
> existed millenia after Belgarath and co and the structure of the continents
> has had time to change since it was put back on the right path. Off the top
> of my head I cant remember the final fate of the Orb but isnt it possible
> that the Bhelliom IS the Orb changed through time. Both have a concious
> mind

Would that make Klæl the released spirit of the Sardion?
I didn't think of time-multiplexing the worlds, but I don't really believe in
it.
You get the problems of explaining away what happens to the Orb and
Eriond if you place Sparhawkia after Eriondia (I will not accept that
the Orb evolves into the Bhelliom as Bhelliom is a creator of worlds
and the Orb af the end of Mal is without an opposite), and if you
place Eriondia after Sparhawkia you get the problem of the early
history of Eriondia.
No matter which way you twist it you have to do away with the
incommensurability of the creation tales presented (and we actually
meet the world creators in both worlds).

From my point of view there is simply _no_ way you can construct
a plausible theory that places the two worlds on the same planet. Any
such theory will need a cumbersome lot of ad hoc assumptions that
will serve to discredit the theory - it is so much simpler to present
the theory that the two worlds are completely disconnected - that
they even exist in different universes. The latter theory requires no
extra ad hoc assumptions and still explains all available data.

My view is of course heavily influenced by my education - science
is my field.

--
Beldin
Please reply to t.f...@mail.dk

+++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe
And Reboot +++
-- (Terry Pratchett, Hogfather)


Ce'Nedra

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Oct 21, 2001, 12:10:16 PM10/21/01
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In article <mMIz7.7678$sF.8...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>, Nicnet
<nic...@ntlworld.com> writes

>There is the theory that Sparhawk and co
>existed millenia after Belgarath and co

What a lovely theory....

The burden of millennia has weighed heavily on Eriond and corrupted him
into becoming the neglectful God of the Elenes who retreats from
humanity in despair of the corruption they have wreaked upon his great
works and His Church. As a response to this, the Younger Gods will
themselves into being to take care of the humans who find they still
need Gods.
Centuries of loneliness trapped in the bowels of the earth has also
altered the Orb (history is unclear on how it got there - either it fell
down a chasm during one of the continent altering earthquakes, or one of
Relg's descendants had an argument with one of Geran's, put it there,
and refused to give it back), and it now speaks directly, rather than
that annoying singing/humming. Presumably having bits hacked off it by a
demented Troll didn't help it either, as it's memory of past events
seems a little disturbed.
Zandramas brought her component atoms back together (along with some
space dust she picked up on her travels) and renamed herself Klael
before returning for a rematch.
The dryads have died out, although many of their sons interbred with the
race that became the Styrics (explains Sephrenia's height).
Eriond's brothers have mostly slumbered through the ages, although some
of their subconscious urges in their dreams have manifested themselves
in the world (e.g. - the Troll God of "Mating" came straight out of
Belar's id).
Humans have evolved so much since Garion's time, that when some of his
contemporaries are summoned back by a spell, they appear as "Dawnmen" to
modern men.

;)

--
Ce'Nedra
"You're playing a cruel game, Princess. I've seen village girls play this same
game. Nothing good ever comes of it."

Nicnet

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Oct 21, 2001, 6:56:09 PM10/21/01
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I found a reference in Magicians Gambit (pg 56 my copy) that says their are
other worlds and other people on those worlds. When Belgarath and Co are
going through the desert of Maragor the voice in Belgarions head says

"you've been hurtling towards this event since before the begining of time.
Its' yours alone. You're the only one who can do what needs to be done, and
it's the most important thing that will ever happen -- Not just in this
world but in all the worlds in all the universe. There are whole races of
men on worlds so far away that the light from their suns will never reach
this world, and they'll cease to exist if you fail (Belgarion)"

it goes on but I wont.but i think that this puts the entire debate to rest.
Their are other worlds and so clearly without more proof to the contrary we
can safely assume that Sparhawk and Co live on one of these other worlds.

<=awaits the shootdown haha

Nicnet


gilmae

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Oct 21, 2001, 9:45:32 PM10/21/01
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"Nicnet" <nic...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:bqIA7.53389$sF.42...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...

>
> it goes on but I wont.but i think that this puts the entire debate to
rest.
> Their are other worlds and so clearly without more proof to the contrary
we
> can safely assume that Sparhawk and Co live on one of these other worlds.
>
> <=awaits the shootdown haha

i've always hoped that the French actually come from a different world.

Does that satisfy your shootdown needs?

g. (the charming mr anti-afe)


Ce'Nedra

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Oct 21, 2001, 5:34:14 PM10/21/01
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In article <3BCF5372...@durham.ac.uk>, Kheldar
<m.s....@durham.ac.uk> writes

(snip - many lines quoted text)

>(p.s. sorry about the nick Kheldar, but i use this for my other
>newsgroups and changing it will be a pain, just this once eh...)
>
>Mark

That could be forgivable.
But some people might take exception to the 53 lines of quoted untrimmed
previous articles, with only 9 lines of your own text added at the
end...

--
Ce'Nedra - the snippy bitch is back
(sorry, sorry, couldn't resist...)

Mr J M Carpenter

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Oct 25, 2001, 12:22:35 PM10/25/01
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On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Ce'Nedra wrote:


> Humans have evolved so much since Garion's time, that when some of his
> contemporaries are summoned back by a spell, they appear as "Dawnmen" to
> modern men.

And the Chereks evolved into the trolls?
--
Luck, AATC. Byee
%)

Ce'Nedra

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Oct 25, 2001, 3:23:22 PM10/25/01
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In article <bqIA7.53389$sF.42...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
Nicnet <nic...@ntlworld.com> writes

Well, since you said it so nicely ;)

Despite my random (not entirely serious, though I may make a fanfic out
of it another time) theory of last week, I don't think that Sparhawk's
world and Belgarion's world are related at all.
I don't think they're even in the same universe, as I'd argue that the
Gods of each are universal, not only relevant to one world of that
universe, and again, if the laws of physics are universal, then the laws
of magic would be too, so the different Gods and means of magic disprove
them sharing a single universe....

I'm sure I could have said that better if I hadn't had two glasses of
wine, but my PC has just come back on after a powercut, so there was
nothing else to do for the past few hours ;)

Beldin

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Oct 25, 2001, 3:36:08 PM10/25/01
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No need
SoK p. 25 (my copy) - right after the fight against the ape-bear - my
name-sake says:
"Use your head, Belgarath." (I _like_ that!) "There are Trolls in Cherek,
Algroths range
down into Arendia, and the Dryads live in southern Tolnedra. Then there's that
dragon.
Nobody knows for sure _where_ she lives. There are monsters scattered all
over.
They're just a little more concentrated in Ulgo, that's all."

- Sorry I couldn't help myself quoting the lot of it - he's just *so* good!
;-)

Maybe the Eldraks or the ape-bears evolved into the Ogres?

I stated elsewhere, I simply don't believe in this - why spend all that effort
trying to
explain away all the inconsistencies of a theory that places Eriondia and
Sparhawkia
on the same world, when there is absolutely nothing to explain away if your
theory
is that they exist on two different worlds - and maybe even in different
universes.

--
Beldin
Please reply to (t.f...@mail.dk)

People demand freedom of speech to make up for
the freedom of thought which they avoid.
Soren Kierkegaard

Jason A Williams / Khendon

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Oct 25, 2001, 5:12:49 PM10/25/01
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On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:23:22 +0100, Ce'Nedra wrote:
>I don't think they're even in the same universe, as I'd argue that the
>Gods of each are universal, not only relevant to one world of that
>universe

Only UL is universal in the BelMal world, I'm not sure about the other
one...

--
"While you're technically correct, you're quite wrong" - John Levon

Jason A Williams / Khendon <ja...@khendon.org.uk>

Ce'Nedra

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Oct 25, 2001, 4:49:41 PM10/25/01
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In article <Pine.WNT.4.21.0110251722050.260-100000@WS-
R039-51.csv.warwick.ac.uk>, Mr J M Carpenter <ma...@csv.warwick.ac.uk>
writes

I'm fairly sure it was the Algroths (sp?)

--
Ce'Nedra - the bitch is back

Jason A Williams / Khendon

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Oct 26, 2001, 6:26:00 AM10/26/01
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On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:49:41 +0100, Ce'Nedra wrote:
>> And the Chereks evolved into the trolls?
>
>I'm fairly sure it was the Algroths (sp?)

I think it may well have been the trolls, actually :-)

apostate

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Oct 26, 2001, 7:26:00 AM10/26/01
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"Jason A Williams / Khendon" <jason+...@khendon.org.uk> wrote in message
news:slrn9tgvqk.7l...@mrbusy.compsoc.man.ac.uk...

> On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:23:22 +0100, Ce'Nedra wrote:
> >I don't think they're even in the same universe, as I'd argue that the
> >Gods of each are universal, not only relevant to one world of that
> >universe
>
> Only UL is universal in the BelMal world, I'm not sure about the other
> one...
>

One would still have to account for the fact that there is a basic differnce
between LP/Dp and Bhelliom/Klael. The DP lost and so that division was
healed but klael was released and went on his way.

--
The Apostate


Ce'Nedra

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Oct 27, 2001, 12:12:22 PM10/27/01
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In article <slrn9tie9r.7l...@mrbusy.compsoc.man.ac.uk>, Jason
A Williams / Khendon <jason+...@khendon.org.uk> writes

You're enjoying using that sig against me, aren't you? ;)

Silk

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Oct 27, 2001, 4:59:08 PM10/27/01
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Jason A Williams / Khendon <jason+...@khendon.org.uk> wrote in message
news:slrn9tie9r.7l...@mrbusy.compsoc.man.ac.uk...

| On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:49:41 +0100, Ce'Nedra wrote:
| >> And the Chereks evolved into the trolls?
| >
| >I'm fairly sure it was the Algroths (sp?)
|
| I think it may well have been the trolls, actually :-)

How remarkable! The Trolls evolved into the trolls ? ^_^


Silk
--
The greatest thing you'll ever learn
Is to love and be loved in return


Vanan01

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Oct 28, 2001, 6:01:06 PM10/28/01
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Ce'Nedra wrote:

>I don't think they're even in the same universe, as I'd argue that the
>Gods of each are universal, not only relevant to one world of that
>universe

I agree with your general idea, but you're wrong on this point. IIRC, during
one of the random adventures Our Heroes were on, Aph goes and gets them at
least a comparatively modern vessel to sail across an equally random body of
water. I seem to remember either Kurik or the Kurik Clone (whichever series it
was) puzzling out why the vessel was able to move faster than domestic travel
options (something about non-unionized labor). At any rate, Aph had to go
negotiate with the God in command of that world or region to get permission to
bring the buggers over to haul her little posse to wherever it was they were
going.

Vanan

Aquarius

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Oct 29, 2001, 4:40:46 AM10/29/01
to
Vanan01 spoo'd forth:

Hm. That doesn't necessarily mean that Gods aren't universal across a
given universe. Note that Aphrael has to negotiate with the Elene God in
order to do things to Kalten, for example. The Gods can be relevant to
multiple worlds without being all-powerful in those worlds.

Aq.

--
"Out of the frying pan and into the very same, identical frying-pan.
Smegging great."
-- Lister, "Last Human"

William Marnoch

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Oct 30, 2001, 7:07:58 AM10/30/01
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On 28 Oct 2001 23:01:06 GMT, van...@aol.com (Vanan01) wrote:

>Ce'Nedra wrote:
>
>>I don't think they're even in the same universe, as I'd argue that the
>>Gods of each are universal, not only relevant to one world of that
>>universe
>
> I agree with your general idea, but you're wrong on this point. IIRC, during
>one of the random adventures Our Heroes were on, Aph goes and gets them at
>least a comparatively modern vessel to sail across an equally random body of
>water. I seem to remember either Kurik or the Kurik Clone (whichever series it
>was)

It was Khalad.

> puzzling out why the vessel was able to move faster than domestic travel
>options (something about non-unionized labor).

I always got a bit confused about that ship, I never really figured
out what it was meant to look like. I had a vague idea it was some
sort of hydrofoil thing but I can't realy remember now...

> At any rate, Aph had to go
>negotiate with the God in command of that world or region to get permission to
>bring the buggers over to haul her little posse to wherever it was they were
>going.

I'm not sure if she ever specified who she was getting permision from
so it could easily not be a God of another world.

>Vanan


--
William Marnoch
wil...@wmarnoch.freeserve.co.uk
ICQ:77848483

Vanan01

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Nov 1, 2001, 12:15:42 AM11/1/01
to
Aquarius wrote:

>Hm. That doesn't necessarily mean that Gods aren't universal across a
>given universe. Note that Aphrael has to negotiate with the Elene God in
>order to do things to Kalten, for example. The Gods can be relevant to
>multiple worlds without being all-powerful in those worlds.

True, but don't you think she would have said something like "I had to go
negotiate with Bob, who has dominion over that part of that specific world.
He's not very popular here, but he's all the rage over there. I can't figure it
out." Though there are logical fallacies in the argument, one could also point
out that if Aph had worshippers scattered around the cosmos, Zalasta offing a
couple of 'em on one specific world shouldn't have had the effect it did.

Vanan

Vanan01

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Nov 1, 2001, 12:19:02 AM11/1/01
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William Marnoch wrote:

>I always got a bit confused about that ship, I never really figured
>out what it was meant to look like. I had a vague idea it was some
>sort of hydrofoil thing but I can't realy remember now...

I had to keep telling myself that it wasn't mechanized. The image of them
sitting in the lower deck of the H.M.S. Hood kept popping into my mind...

Vanan

Jason A Williams / Khendon

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Nov 1, 2001, 5:48:06 AM11/1/01
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On 01 Nov 2001 05:15:42 GMT, Vanan01 wrote:
>Though there are logical fallacies in the argument, one could also point
>out that if Aph had worshippers scattered around the cosmos, Zalasta offing a
>couple of 'em on one specific world shouldn't have had the effect it did.

What makes you think belief is linear? :-)

--
"While you're technically correct, you're quite wrong" - John Levon

Jason A Williams / Khendon <ja...@khendon.org.uk>

Dallan

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Nov 1, 2001, 5:50:26 PM11/1/01
to
Hark, denizens of alt.fan.eddings! On this blessed day of Mon, 29 Oct
2001 09:40:46 GMT, Aquarius chose to regale us with their infinite wisdom
thusly...

> Hm. That doesn't necessarily mean that Gods aren't universal across a
> given universe. Note that Aphrael has to negotiate with the Elene God in
> order to do things to Kalten, for example. The Gods can be relevant to
> multiple worlds without being all-powerful in those worlds.

'Sides, this gives Setras a place to experiment with his sunrises.

--
Chigbo Ikejiani ICQ: 42644267 shadow...@telusplanet.net
Watching from the shadowed wings of life's stage.
The rain, it raineth on the Just and the Unjust fella. But chiefly on the
Just because the Unjust steals the Just's umbrella.

Aquarius

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Nov 2, 2001, 2:10:01 AM11/2/01
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Dallan spoo'd forth:

> Hark, denizens of alt.fan.eddings! On this blessed day of Mon, 29 Oct
> 2001 09:40:46 GMT, Aquarius chose to regale us with their infinite wisdom
> thusly...
>> Hm. That doesn't necessarily mean that Gods aren't universal across a
>> given universe. Note that Aphrael has to negotiate with the Elene God in
>> order to do things to Kalten, for example. The Gods can be relevant to
>> multiple worlds without being all-powerful in those worlds.
>
> 'Sides, this gives Setras a place to experiment with his sunrises.

That was a world with nothing living on it, though. I'm not sure whether
this is an argument for or against my theory :)

Aq.

--
This is quite possibly the funniest joke in the history of the universe :)
-- Gladys compliments my sense of humour

Vanan01

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Nov 2, 2001, 2:59:13 AM11/2/01
to
Khendon wrote:

>What makes you think belief is linear? :-)

It takes a special kind of mind to think that that. I haven't quite decided
if it should be classified as 'genius' or 'demented.'

Vanan

Aquarius

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Nov 9, 2001, 4:10:31 AM11/9/01
to
Ce'Nedra spoo'd forth:

> In article <mMIz7.7678$sF.8...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>, Nicnet
> <nic...@ntlworld.com> writes
>>There is the theory that Sparhawk and co
>>existed millenia after Belgarath and co
>
> The burden of millennia has weighed heavily on Eriond and corrupted him
> into becoming the neglectful God of the Elenes who retreats from
> humanity in despair of the corruption they have wreaked upon his great
> works and His Church. As a response to this, the Younger Gods will
> themselves into being to take care of the humans who find they still
> need Gods.
[snip]

> The dryads have died out, although many of their sons interbred with the
> race that became the Styrics (explains Sephrenia's height).
> Eriond's brothers have mostly slumbered through the ages, although some
> of their subconscious urges in their dreams have manifested themselves
> in the world (e.g. - the Troll God of "Mating" came straight out of
> Belar's id).
> Humans have evolved so much since Garion's time, that when some of his
> contemporaries are summoned back by a spell, they appear as "Dawnmen" to
> modern men.

I'm quite prepared to believe that Barak would be perceived as a
grunting caveman by Elenes. But Beldaran?

Personally, I think that Garion, despondent after the death of Ce'Nedra
(see "If A Tree Dies In The Woods"), grows ever more bitter without the
calming influence of the woman he loves, until he eventually becomes so
twisted that he names himself "Azash", meaning "Life sucks" in Old
Angarak. He finds himself having more and more in common with Torak
(meaning "no depth perception" in Old Angarak), including a certain
liking for human sacrifice, especially the Rivans (who couldn't find a
way to keep Ce'Nedra alive). He resents the Dryads (now become the
Styrics, as above) for the same reason. See? It all makes sense.

So, Belgarion, who are you going to be?
Tonight, Matthew, I'm going to be: Azash! Or Mumm-Ra the Ever-Living, I
haven't decided yet.

Hey You

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Nov 9, 2001, 10:40:04 AM11/9/01
to
Aquarius wrote:

>Personally, I think that Garion, despondent after the death of Ce'Nedra
>(see "If A Tree Dies In The Woods"), grows ever more bitter without the
>calming influence of the woman he loves

I've called Ce'Nedra a lot of things, but "calming" ain't one of 'em.

>Tonight, Matthew, I'm going to be: Azash! Or Mumm-Ra the Ever-Living, I
>haven't decided yet.

Was Mumm-Ra the bad guy on that cartoon called Thundercats? I've been trying
to remember his damn name for months now, and Mumm-Ra sounds really familiar.

David Gardner

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Nov 9, 2001, 12:53:47 PM11/9/01
to
> Was Mumm-Ra the bad guy on that cartoon called Thundercats? I've been
trying
> to remember his damn name for months now, and Mumm-Ra sounds really
familiar.

Indeed!

Have a play of this game while you are feeling a bit nostalgic too :)
http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/games/tcats/

David.


Mark Erik Larsen

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Nov 9, 2001, 2:00:47 PM11/9/01
to
>Have a play of this game while you are feeling a bit nostalgic too :)
>http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/games/tcats/


I love it! The memories are coming back now... :o)

Vanan01

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Nov 10, 2001, 1:20:40 AM11/10/01
to
Aquarius wrote:

>So, Belgarion, who are you going to be?
>Tonight, Matthew, I'm going to be: Azash! Or Mumm-Ra the Ever-Living, I
>haven't decided yet.

That was a good cartoon in its day. In a way, you've gotta feel sorry for
Mumm-Ra. When you get right down to it, he was minding his own evil business
when out of the sky a bunch of talking felines descends and proceeds to do
battle with him, all because they disagree with the current administration of
their forcefully adopted new home world (the animators really went out of their
way to make sure no one thought like that, didn't they? This is the mummy, he
is _evil;_ he even says so.)

Vanan

Ce'Nedra

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Nov 10, 2001, 10:30:29 AM11/10/01
to
In article <20011110012040...@mb-ma.aol.com>, Vanan01
<van...@aol.com> writes

I always wondered about the kittens personally. Liono grew from kitten
to cat in about one episode.. maybe two at the most. But Wilekit and
Wilekat were still young series later...

Was Liono on steroids? :)

Ce'Nedra

unread,
Nov 10, 2001, 10:26:44 AM11/10/01
to
In article <9rf6bt$plt$2...@news2.isdnet.net>, Silk <Prince_Kheldar_of_Dras
n...@hotmail.com> writes

>Jason A Williams / Khendon <jason+...@khendon.org.uk> wrote in message
>news:slrn9tie9r.7l...@mrbusy.compsoc.man.ac.uk...
>| On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:49:41 +0100, Ce'Nedra wrote:
>| >> And the Chereks evolved into the trolls?
>| >
>| >I'm fairly sure it was the Algroths (sp?)
>|
>| I think it may well have been the trolls, actually :-)
>
>How remarkable! The Trolls evolved into the trolls ? ^_^

Yep. It took them centuries to lose their capital ;)

(although some would call that careless, rather than evolution) ;)

--
Ce'
"You men always want to complicate things so much.
Next time you have a problem, dear, just bring it to me.
I'll tell you how to solve it."

Vanan01

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Nov 11, 2001, 2:55:00 AM11/11/01
to
Ce'Nedra wrote:

>I always wondered about the kittens personally. Liono grew from kitten
>to cat in about one episode.. maybe two at the most. But Wilekit and
>Wilekat were still young series later...
>
>Was Liono on steroids? :)

Ya know, that's a good question. IIRC (and I probably don't. It's been a
_long_ time) the whole lot of them get into stasis pods in the first episode
that aren't quite stasis pods. They all age some while in there, or something
like that. Guess Liono's pod was attached to the Plot Device matrix which sped
up his aging, while the kittens, being in pods not endowed with Plot Device
components didn't age as much.

Vanan

Aquarius

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Nov 11, 2001, 4:50:10 AM11/11/01
to
Ce'Nedra spoo'd forth:
>>How remarkable! The Trolls evolved into the trolls ? ^_^
>
> Yep. It took them centuries to lose their capital ;)
>
> (although some would call that careless, rather than evolution) ;)

I thought that was the Cyrgai?

"Bloody hell, I know it was here somewhere, stupid city...now, it was a
hundred steps *this* way, no, wait..."

Aq.

--
According to your theory, if a woman can have a baby in nine months
then nine women should be able to have a baby in one month.
-- Dante, Angst Technology

Aquarius

unread,
Nov 11, 2001, 4:50:13 AM11/11/01
to
Ce'Nedra spoo'd forth:
[Thundercats]

> I always wondered about the kittens personally. Liono grew from kitten
> to cat in about one episode.. maybe two at the most. But Wilekit and
> Wilekat were still young series later...
>
> Was Liono on steroids? :)

I always assumed that Wilekat[1] was deliberately staying young (through
some unreleaved method -- Oil of Ulay?) to avoid a trademark violation
suit from Kitekat...?

Aq.

[1] Spellings very, according to my search across the net. One
particular muppet had Wilykit spelt as "Willykit", which is an
intriguing new concept, I think. Airfix have probably already got the
licence, though. :)

--
"Aq's gone off me so many times I'm surprised he hasn't
rotted away by now. ;)"
-- Kamion, afe

Aquarius

unread,
Nov 11, 2001, 5:00:09 AM11/11/01
to
Vanan01 spoo'd forth:
[Thundercats -- ho! [1]]

> Ya know, that's a good question. IIRC (and I probably don't. It's been a
> _long_ time) the whole lot of them get into stasis pods in the first episode
> that aren't quite stasis pods. They all age some while in there, or something
> like that. Guess Liono's pod was attached to the Plot Device matrix which sped
> up his aging, while the kittens, being in pods not endowed with Plot Device
> components didn't age as much.

How very cynical of you!

I'm not sure you could even fit Klael /inside/ a stasis pod. :)

Aq.

[1] Ah, but which one was a ho, eh? Got to be Cheetara, really.
Wilykit's too young...

--
"Last week, I arrived in Sunnydale. Or perhaps it was the week before, I
don't know."
-- Buffy, as written by Albert Camus
Certic, <1004299876.18870....@news.demon.co.uk>

Ce'Nedra

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Nov 11, 2001, 5:59:50 AM11/11/01
to
In article <9slh83$v76$1...@giles.kryogenix.org>, Aquarius
<aqua...@kryogenix.org> writes

>Ce'Nedra spoo'd forth:
>>>How remarkable! The Trolls evolved into the trolls ? ^_^
>>
>> Yep. It took them centuries to lose their capital ;)
>>
>> (although some would call that careless, rather than evolution) ;)
>
>I thought that was the Cyrgai?
>
>"Bloody hell, I know it was here somewhere, stupid city...now, it was a
>hundred steps *this* way, no, wait..."

I think I'll just quote that old thing about those who do not learn from
history being doomed to repeat it, and drop this bit of the thread ;)

apostate

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Nov 13, 2001, 3:15:18 PM11/13/01
to

"Aquarius" <aqua...@kryogenix.org> wrote in message
news:9sg624$apa$1...@giles.kryogenix.org...

>
> I'm quite prepared to believe that Barak would be perceived as a
> grunting caveman by Elenes. But Beldaran?
>

To the neanderthal the neanderthaless is beautiful.

Even Giant Haystacks got married

--
The Apostate


Ce'Nedra

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Nov 19, 2001, 2:57:50 PM11/19/01
to
In article <slrn9tgvqk.7l...@mrbusy.compsoc.man.ac.uk>, Jason
A Williams / Khendon <jason+...@khendon.org.uk> writes

>On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:23:22 +0100, Ce'Nedra wrote:
>>I don't think they're even in the same universe, as I'd argue that the
>>Gods of each are universal, not only relevant to one world of that
>>universe
>
>Only UL is universal in the BelMal world, I'm not sure about the other
>one...
>

Doesn't it say somewhere that this world was just created to give the
Gods somewhere to duel? Something about it was a place for Belgarion to
grow up, to confront Torak etc etc?

Jason A Williams / Khendon

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Nov 19, 2001, 3:50:35 PM11/19/01
to
On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:57:50 +0000, Ce'Nedra wrote:
>Doesn't it say somewhere that this world was just created to give the
>Gods somewhere to duel? Something about it was a place for Belgarion to
>grow up, to confront Torak etc etc?

I think that was just a Motivational Speech by the AotL - true from the
point of view that it's probably the most important thing that would happen
on that world, but not in the literal sense that it was the actual *reason*
for the world to be created.

--
"While you're technically correct, you're quite wrong" - John Levon

Jason A Williams / Khendon <ja...@khendon.org.uk>

Jehanneton

unread,
Nov 19, 2001, 4:44:36 PM11/19/01
to
While tuning my lute, I heard jason+...@khendon.org.uk (Jason A
Williams / Khendon) say:

> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:57:50 +0000, Ce'Nedra wrote:
>>Doesn't it say somewhere that this world was just created to give the
>>Gods somewhere to duel? Something about it was a place for Belgarion to
>>grow up, to confront Torak etc etc?
>
> I think that was just a Motivational Speech by the AotL - true from the
> point of view that it's probably the most important thing that would
> happen on that world, but not in the literal sense that it was the
> actual *reason* for the world to be created.

I thought it was something like "to give Garion something to stand on while
he beat the crap out of Torak". I'm sure D&LE say it better, though.

Jeh :-)

--
"You guys have *way* too much crap". Everyone visiting our lounge room,
October 2001.

http://jehanneton.virtualave.net

Aquarius

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Nov 19, 2001, 4:58:53 PM11/19/01
to
Ce'Nedra spoo'd forth:
> In article <slrn9tgvqk.7l...@mrbusy.compsoc.man.ac.uk>, Jason
> A Williams / Khendon <jason+...@khendon.org.uk> writes
>>On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:23:22 +0100, Ce'Nedra wrote:
>>>I don't think they're even in the same universe, as I'd argue that the
>>>Gods of each are universal, not only relevant to one world of that
>>>universe
>>
>>Only UL is universal in the BelMal world, I'm not sure about the other
>>one...
>
> Doesn't it say somewhere that this world was just created to give the
> Gods somewhere to duel? Something about it was a place for Belgarion to
> grow up, to confront Torak etc etc?

Yep. The LP tells Garion that the world was basically created to give
him something to stand on while he fixed things. Does that imply that
the other worlds don't even have that reason for existence?

Aq.

--
x^n + y^n = z^n where n > 2: no solutions
I have a wonderful proof of this but I can't write it now because my
train is coming.
-- Graffito on New York subway

Ian Darling

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Nov 19, 2001, 7:58:08 PM11/19/01
to

"Aquarius" <aqua...@kryogenix.org> wrote:
> Ce'Nedra spoo'd forth:
> > Doesn't it say somewhere that this world was just created to give the
> > Gods somewhere to duel? Something about it was a place for Belgarion to
> > grow up, to confront Torak etc etc?
>
> Yep. The LP tells Garion that the world was basically created to give
> him something to stand on while he fixed things. Does that imply that
> the other worlds don't even have that reason for existence?

I'd hate to be the psychiatrist for the residents of Eriondia, let alone
those other planets:

"Now tell me what the problem is," Freud said, looking over the top of his
glasses at the attractive woman in blue lying restlessly on his couch.

"I feel like the only reason I exist is so my nephew has an opportunity to
defeat an evil God, and so I'm finding it hard to justify my own existence.
My only reason for living is my chain of pastry shops," said the distressed
patient, her white lock of hair glowing under the soft lighting and
contrasting against her long black tresses.

The doctor continued, "So tell me, do you have any sexual feelings for this
God?"

Ian
--
"Darling, a true lady takes off her dignity with her clothes and does her
whorish best. At other times you can be as modest and dignified as your
persona requires." - Robert A. Heinlein, "Time Enough For Love"


Jehanneton

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Nov 19, 2001, 8:52:49 PM11/19/01
to
While tuning my lute, I heard "Ian Darling" <i...@pure-virtual.org> say:

> "Aquarius" <aqua...@kryogenix.org> wrote:
>> Yep. The LP tells Garion that the world was basically created to give
>> him something to stand on while he fixed things. Does that imply that
>> the other worlds don't even have that reason for existence?
>
> I'd hate to be the psychiatrist for the residents of Eriondia, let
> alone those other planets:
>
> "Now tell me what the problem is," Freud said, looking over the top of
> his glasses at the attractive woman in blue lying restlessly on his
> couch.
>
> "I feel like the only reason I exist is so my nephew has an opportunity
> to defeat an evil God, and so I'm finding it hard to justify my own
> existence. My only reason for living is my chain of pastry shops," said
> the distressed patient, her white lock of hair glowing under the soft
> lighting and contrasting against her long black tresses.
>
> The doctor continued, "So tell me, do you have any sexual feelings for
> this God?"

ROTFL! Oh this is good. Got any plans on extending it into a full fanfic?
Or maybe a notebook.... Eriondian Heroes- an Analysis of the Effects of
Psyche on World Defining EVENTS.

Aquarius

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Nov 20, 2001, 2:58:34 AM11/20/01
to
Jason A Williams / Khendon spoo'd forth:

> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:57:50 +0000, Ce'Nedra wrote:
>>Doesn't it say somewhere that this world was just created to give the
>>Gods somewhere to duel? Something about it was a place for Belgarion to
>>grow up, to confront Torak etc etc?
>
> I think that was just a Motivational Speech by the AotL - true from the
> point of view that it's probably the most important thing that would happen
> on that world, but not in the literal sense that it was the actual *reason*
> for the world to be created.

Why not?

I mean, for this, we assume that all worlds *have* a reason for
creation. Given that they do, and as far as we know at the end of the
Bel (before all the retcons happen), pretty much everything that has
ever happened in the world has led, however tangentially, towards the
battle between Belgarion and Torak. Why can't the reason for the world's
creation be that battle? If the battle were not to happen, would there
have been any point in creating the world?

Aq -- this is dangerously close to a religion argument :)

--
AFE dg++>+ ka+++>++ d+++ m+++>++ ot++ b++ tq- i!
c- l++ afec++ a? f+>- fsN
the AFECode, at http://www.kryogenix.org/afe/afecode.shtml

Paul Baxter

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Nov 20, 2001, 2:12:53 PM11/20/01
to

Jason A Williams / Khendon <jason+...@khendon.org.uk> wrote in message
news:slrn9virtb.68...@mrbusy.compsoc.man.ac.uk...

> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:57:50 +0000, Ce'Nedra wrote:
> >Doesn't it say somewhere that this world was just created to give the
> >Gods somewhere to duel? Something about it was a place for Belgarion to
> >grow up, to confront Torak etc etc?
>
> I think that was just a Motivational Speech by the AotL - true from the

Pity I just read that as 'Motivational Speech by AOL'

Really shocked me.

Paul Baxter


Jason A Williams / Khendon

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Nov 20, 2001, 2:34:43 PM11/20/01
to
On Tue, 20 Nov 2001 19:12:53 -0000, Paul Baxter wrote:
>> I think that was just a Motivational Speech by the AotL - true from the
>
>Pity I just read that as 'Motivational Speech by AOL'

Sorry. I'm boycotting the phrase "Prophecy of the Light" :-)

--
"While you're technically correct, you're quite wrong" - John Levon

Jason A Williams / Khendon <ja...@khendon.org.uk>

Ce'Nedra

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Nov 20, 2001, 5:15:58 PM11/20/01
to
In article <9teag6$9o1$1...@liqcryst.chemie.uni-hamburg.de>, Paul Baxter
<pa...@pdb26.free-online.co.uk> writes

*grin*

One of the women I work with came in today complaining that her home
email wasn't working, so she needed an account set up at work.
My, how surprised I was when she said it was an AOL account. ;)

--
Ce'Nedra - not biased about ISP's. Hates Compuserve equally. ;)

gilmae

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Nov 21, 2001, 1:42:47 AM11/21/01
to

"Jason A Williams / Khendon" <jason+...@khendon.org.uk> wrote in message
news:slrn9vlbr5.46...@mrbusy.compsoc.man.ac.uk...

> >> I think that was just a Motivational Speech by the AotL - true from the
> Sorry. I'm boycotting the phrase "Prophecy of the Light" :-)

It probably says something about me that when i tried to work out what the A
might stand for, all i could think of was Arsehole...I was going for the
Trade Federation robots as well...oh, bad example...*everyone* was going for
them.

g. (the charming mr anti-afe)


Teut

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Nov 21, 2001, 11:26:49 AM11/21/01
to
In article <UeDdiRBe...@darkisland.demon.co.uk>, Ce'Nedra
<Ce'Ne...@darkisland.demon.co.uk> writes

>*grin*
>
>One of the women I work with came in today complaining that her home
>email wasn't working, so she needed an account set up at work.
>My, how surprised I was when she said it was an AOL account. ;)
>
Oh, yeah, like Demons email service has been perfect recently...
--
Teut, Draconic Defender of the Alias Scrolls
If your knees aren't green by the end of the day, you should seriously re-
examine your life - Calvin
te...@thebusstop.demon.co.uk

Ce'Nedra

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Nov 21, 2001, 2:11:22 PM11/21/01
to
In article <QItwnmBJ...@thebusstop.demon.co.uk>, Teut <waiting@theb
usstop.demon.co.uk> writes

>In article <UeDdiRBe...@darkisland.demon.co.uk>, Ce'Nedra
><Ce'Ne...@darkisland.demon.co.uk> writes
>>*grin*
>>
>>One of the women I work with came in today complaining that her home
>>email wasn't working, so she needed an account set up at work.
>>My, how surprised I was when she said it was an AOL account. ;)
>>
>Oh, yeah, like Demons email service has been perfect recently...

Oh, I thought it was just my PC being crap and not connecting
properly....

No matter. It takes more than that to dent my loyalty to demon. ;)

--
Ce'Nedra - happy as long as she has her beloved Turnpike. Nothing else matters
really ;)

Aquarion

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Nov 22, 2001, 8:05:53 PM11/22/01
to
On Wed, 21 Nov 2001 19:11:22 +0000, Ce'Nedra put forth:

>
> No matter. It takes more than that to dent my loyalty to demon. ;)
>
How's about last week, then, when the lost dialup ability to the entire
south of england for an hour, then routing for the entire country for
an hour after that?

--
Aq2

Mark Erik Larsen

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Nov 23, 2001, 1:55:51 PM11/23/01
to
>How's about last week, then, when the lost dialup ability to the entire
>south of england for an hour, then routing for the entire country for
>an hour after that?


There seems to have been quite a few nationwied BT infrastructure
failures recently :o( Not good.

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