Ce'Nedra and Garion
Eric Wu
I'm not too sure if this question has been asked before or
not, but remember the time when Aldur said to Polgara
that in order to be married to another person, you must be
its equal (when Durnik died). So when Durnik came back alive,
he had to power of the W&tW-- equivilant to Polgara.
Well, Garion had to be married to Ce'Nedra, but can you count
them as equals?? Ce'Nedra didn't have W&tW, but was still
married to Garion. Comments?
Dylo
Eric...@gnn.com (Eric Wu) wrote:
Garion was never truly a disciple of Aldur, while Polgara was. Maybe
it was just Aldur's rule. Belgarion really didn't have a master other
than the Prophecy of Light, and since that prophecy ordained him to
marry Ce'Nedra, I suppose it doesn't really matter if they were
equals.
However, they are different enough to complement each other. Garion
is a scullion who becomes Overlord of the West. She is sort of his
guide into being royalty. On the other hand, Garion is her way of
believing in sorcery and that the world does not end at the Tolnedran
border post. Let's face it. Calling a Tolnedran a skeptic is a gross
understatement...
Any thoughts?
Ken Weiher
Eric Wu wrote:
>
> I'm not too sure if this question has been asked before or
> not, but remember the time when Aldur said to Polgara
> that in order to be married to another person, you must be
> its equal (when Durnik died). So when Durnik came back alive,
> he had to power of the W&tW-- equivilant to Polgara.
> Well, Garion had to be married to Ce'Nedra, but can you count
> them as equals?? Ce'Nedra didn't have W&tW, but was still
> married to Garion. Comments?
Ah...but do we know for sure that Ce'Nedra doesn't have W&tW? Perhaps
she just hasn't tried! (Heck...Polgara thought she had given it up,
and never even tried anything to be sure!)
KEN
Joy Green
In article <4oim3u$f...@news-e2d.gnn.com>, Eric...@gnn.com quoth
thusly...
>
> I'm not too sure if this question has been asked before or
> not, but remember the time when Aldur said to Polgara
> that in order to be married to another person, you must be
> its equal (when Durnik died). So when Durnik came back alive,
> he had to power of the W&tW-- equivilant to Polgara.
> Well, Garion had to be married to Ce'Nedra, but can you count
> them as equals?? Ce'Nedra didn't have W&tW, but was still
> married to Garion. Comments?
Treading on dangerous ground here - but possibly it was necessary for a
_woman_ not to be more powerful than a _man_? My father has been known
to express this sort of sentiment about the relative incomes of myself
and my husband. Perhaps it is necessary for he fragile egos of men in a
pre-indstrialised country - Durnik is the protective sort anyway so would
need to feel he was in charge of that side of things. The inequity
between him and Pol would surely have irked him.
The other explanation is that Garion gave Ce'Nedra equal _worldly_ power
at their betrothal - which she was much more interested in!
Joy
ERoman6629
It was decided by the prophecy that Garion would marry a Tolnedran.
Jadefire
In article <31ad0c5b...@news.earthlink.net>, Dy...@suzail.net wrote:
> Eric...@gnn.com (Eric Wu) wrote:
>
> > I'm not too sure if this question has been asked before or
> > not, but remember the time when Aldur said to Polgara
> > that in order to be married to another person, you must be
> > its equal (when Durnik died). So when Durnik came back alive,
> > he had to power of the W&tW-- equivilant to Polgara.
> > Well, Garion had to be married to Ce'Nedra, but can you count
> > them as equals?? Ce'Nedra didn't have W&tW, but was still
> > married to Garion. Comments?
> >
>
> Garion was never truly a disciple of Aldur, while Polgara was. Maybe
> it was just Aldur's rule. Belgarion really didn't have a master other
> than the Prophecy of Light, and since that prophecy ordained him to
> marry Ce'Nedra, I suppose it doesn't really matter if they were
> equals.
>
> However, they are different enough to complement each other. Garion
> is a scullion who becomes Overlord of the West. She is sort of his
> guide into being royalty. On the other hand, Garion is her way of
> believing in sorcery and that the world does not end at the Tolnedran
> border post. Let's face it. Calling a Tolnedran a skeptic is a gross
> understatement...
>
> Any thoughts?
According to their pre-nuptial agreement, Ce'Nedra has equal power with
Belgarion in terms of rulership of Riva, as well as the Overlordship of
the West!
--
Seeya Starside!
Jadefire K'Nevra
ech...@alpha1.curtin.edu.au
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "Bite of more than you can chew...then chew like hell!" |
| - Peter Brock, Australian motorsport legend - |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
Stephen J Clark
Eric...@gnn.com (Eric Wu) wrote:
> I'm not too sure if this question has been asked before or
> not, but remember the time when Aldur said to Polgara
> that in order to be married to another person, you must be
> its equal (when Durnik died). So when Durnik came back alive,
> he had to power of the W&tW-- equivilant to Polgara.
> Well, Garion had to be married to Ce'Nedra, but can you count
> them as equals?? Ce'Nedra didn't have W&tW, but was still
> married to Garion. Comments?
Well. She is his superior in ego and as for rank - she seems to have
gotten that out of her system in Book 4 if you remember.
--
Steve Clark
Brunel University
URL : http://http1.brunel.ac.uk:8080/~casrsjc
The Thorny Rose
On Thu, 30 May 1996, Ken Weiher wrote:
> Eric Wu wrote:
> >
> > I'm not too sure if this question has been asked before or
> > not, but remember the time when Aldur said to Polgara
> > that in order to be married to another person, you must be
> > its equal (when Durnik died). So when Durnik came back alive,
> > he had to power of the W&tW-- equivilant to Polgara.
> > Well, Garion had to be married to Ce'Nedra, but can you count
> > them as equals?? Ce'Nedra didn't have W&tW, but was still
> > married to Garion. Comments?
>
> Ah...but do we know for sure that Ce'Nedra doesn't have W&tW? Perhaps
> she just hasn't tried! (Heck...Polgara thought she had given it up,
> and never even tried anything to be sure!)
>
> KEN
>
>
Not only this, but the match between Polgara and Durnik was that of a
long lived/immortal sorceress with a mere mortal. Ce'Nedra on the other
hand is a long lived dryad herself and not without her quirks. She was
after all, given an amulet!
Julia
Damian Smart
In article <4oim3u$f...@news-e2d.gnn.com>, Eric...@gnn.com (Eric Wu) wrote:
> Well, Garion had to be married to Ce'Nedra, but can you count
> them as equals?? Ce'Nedra didn't have W&tW, but was still
> married to Garion. Comments?
Ce'Nedra had many other advantages over Garion. Her mind is much quicker than
his, and she finds ways to accomplish her goals much more subtley than the W&W
-Damian
.That which does not kill us makes us stranger..
Khale Drywne
Exactly, strenghts didn't have to be in the W&W... Ce'Nedra worked
painfully reminded Belgarion that she wouldn't enter the marriage as
an inferior, and she didn't. When she raised the army at Arendia, *I*
was tempted to jump outta bed and join her cause <g> Anyway, she had
as good as traits as Belgarion did....
cal...@vnet.ibm.com
In <4oim3u$f...@news-e2d.gnn.com>, Eric...@gnn.com (Eric Wu) writes:
> ...Aldur said to Polgara..
> that in order to be married to another person, you must be
> its equal (when Durnik died). So when Durnik came back alive,
> he had to power of the W&tW-- equivilant to Polgara.
> them as equals?? Ce'Nedra didn't have W&tW, but was still
> married to Garion. Comments?
>
been one of his strong points. However, Garion and Ce'Nedra's marriage was a
political one-it was pretty much forced upon them no matter what, so perhaps
the 'equals' bit doesn't really count here. Anyway, Ce'Nedra was part dryad and a
princess of Tolnedra, so she wasn't a 'nobody'.
There is one other thing about the whole Garion/Ce'Nedra/King of Riva thing which
strikes me as odd. Exactly how long is Garion going to live? If he lives anywhere
near as long as other sorcerers it would present a bit of a problem as far as
succession of the throne goes. He would still be 'young' long after his grandsons
had died. Of course, now that the prophecy is complete, I suppose sorcerers
can start dying off.....BUT doesn't Ce'Nedra as dryad live as long as her tree or
something. This would give her a few hundred years at least. Assuming the bit
about 'equal couples' above, then Garion would have to live at least as long as
her. This puts their children at a bit of a disadvantage as far as inheritance goes.
Besides, how are the peasants of Riva going to react to a king who lives for
hundreds of years...peasants tend to be superstitious and something like this
could easily unnerve them a bit!
Any ideas?
Caleb
)
The Thorny Rose <Julia...@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
>On Thu, 30 May 1996, Ken Weiher wrote:
>> Eric Wu wrote:
>> >
>> > I'm not too sure if this question has been asked before or
>> > not, but remember the time when Aldur said to Polgara
>> > that in order to be married to another person, you must be
>> > its equal (when Durnik died). So when Durnik came back alive,
>> > he had to power of the W&tW-- equivilant to Polgara.
>> > Well, Garion had to be married to Ce'Nedra, but can you count
>> > them as equals?? Ce'Nedra didn't have W&tW, but was still
>> > married to Garion. Comments?
>>
>> Ah...but do we know for sure that Ce'Nedra doesn't have W&tW? Perhaps
>> she just hasn't tried! (Heck...Polgara thought she had given it up,
>> and never even tried anything to be sure!)
>>
>> KEN
>>
>>
>Not only this, but the match between Polgara and Durnik was that of a
>long lived/immortal sorceress with a mere mortal. Ce'Nedra on the other
>hand is a long lived dryad herself and not without her quirks. She was
>after all, given an amulet!
> Julia
And does the power to use the amulet come from the amulet or from
Ce'Nedra? although it's not exactly the will and the word, the ability
to use the thing clearly signifies that she has some capabilities
along the same lines.
Init Good......
Martel
3...@gtuplink.cityscape.co.uk (>:-)) wrote:
>>Not only this, but the match between Polgara and Durnik was that of a
>>long lived/immortal sorceress with a mere mortal. Ce'Nedra on the other
>>hand is a long lived dryad herself and not without her quirks. She was
>>after all, given an amulet!
>> Julia
>And does the power to use the amulet come from the amulet or from
>Ce'Nedra? although it's not exactly the will and the word, the ability
>to use the thing clearly signifies that she has some capabilities
>along the same lines.
>Init Good......
Uh, yeah..
I live, but am not alive
I am dead, but cannot die
Martel
Amitabh S. Bedi
About those Alorns... It just occurred to me that Garion's sorcerously
long life could cause some very interesting responses from the Alorns -
and the Tolnedrans! But then, the Alorns are somewhat accustomed to
Polgara and Belgarath, so they might get used to it without too much
difficulty. The real interesting thing might be how the Tolnedrans would
react to something like this: "Nice to meet you Ran Borune XXVIII. I hope
you enjoy your visit to our island. Your great grandfather told me he
really appreciated the scenary."
Amitabh S. Bedi
be...@sonoma.edu
The Thorny Rose
> Besides, how are the peasants of Riva going to react to a king who lives for
> hundreds of years...peasants tend to be superstitious and something like this
> could easily unnerve them a bit!
> Any ideas?
>
> Caleb
This shouldn't be too much of a problem for them. After all they
seem quite used to the Orb and people like Belgarath coming and going.
Each will only see the King outliving them, why should more than that
bother them?
Julia
Gusto Kim
You're all fools!
Can't you see this whole thing about Garion living forever is just a
crock, a mistake Eddings made, not realizing the kind of implications it
would have for his characters.
It means, like it or not, that Garion will outlive Ce'Nedra and see her
become a withered old hag (even if it takes 1000 years or so for her
tree to die). It will happen. Meanwhile, what will happen to their
children? Will they die, or will they live forever too? Speaking of
which, what about the girls? Will they all be Dryads, and outlive their
non-Dryad brothers? Or will they all be sorcerers? If they're not
sorcerers, then surely Garion will outlive his children as well. What a
curse that would be for old blue-eyes.
This is why David Eddings, while a good author, did not create "a
masterpiece" in either the Belgariad or Mallorean. There are too many
unanswered implications, which Eddings won't answer because he doesn't
know them. The story plots and turns are all the short-sighted workings
of Lester Del Rey, he, and his wife Leigh.
At least with Raymond E. Feist, he's upfront about the subject of
immortals having kids. Pugs kids will die, and whither while he stays
young. His wife died, and his son is an old man commanding armies. The
pain and awkwardness of seeing his children look like his grandparents
is one of the reasons Pug remains aloof.
But is Eddings courageous or intelligent enough to address such issues?
Of course, not. He's just a foolish author who likes to write about old
men getting it on with young women (particularly in his later works).
Karl Norton
Gusto Kim (who is probably insane) <s-gu...@deepcove.com> babbled
incessantly:
> Can't you see this whole thing about Garion living forever is just a
> crock, a mistake Eddings made, not realizing the kind of implications it
> would have for his characters.
>
> It means, like it or not, that Garion will outlive Ce'Nedra and see her
> become a withered old hag (even if it takes 1000 years or so for her
> tree to die). It will happen. Meanwhile, what will happen to their
> children? Will they die, or will they live forever too? Speaking of
> which, what about the girls? Will they all be Dryads, and outlive their
> non-Dryad brothers? Or will they all be sorcerers? If they're not
> sorcerers, then surely Garion will outlive his children as well. What a
> curse that would be for old blue-eyes.
>
> This is why David Eddings, while a good author, did not create "a
> masterpiece" in either the Belgariad or Mallorean. There are too many
> unanswered implications, which Eddings won't answer because he doesn't
> know them. The story plots and turns are all the short-sighted workings
> of Lester Del Rey, he, and his wife Leigh.
>
babbles on about R.E.F...
>
> But is Eddings courageous or intelligent enough to address such issues?
> Of course, not. He's just a foolish author who likes to write about old
> men getting it on with young women (particularly in his later works).
Ok, where shall I begin?
Yes, Garion will outlive Ce'nedra, no question there. And we're
not sure about what will happen to their children. I'll concede that
point as well.
Now then...
Who elected you the end all-be all of literary fantasy? How many
novels have you had published? None? Didn't think so...
To personally attack Eddings, his wife, and the late Lester Del
Rey smacks of incredible audacity. The fact is that they produced an
excellent series of books. Can you say the same? Didn't think so...
I, for one, am not bothered by the fact that everynitty, gritty
detail is pounded to death in Eddings books. I like the fact that some
questions remain unanswered.
For crying out loud, it's a FANTASY SERIES. Ever think to USE
YOUR IMAGINATION??!?!?!
...Old men and young women? Do you mean the Elenium and the Tamuli
(Sparhawk and Elhana)?
I've got news for you, Prude Boy. It happens all the time. Not
to mention the fact that they're in love, they're married, and IT'S ONLY
A MAKE BELIEVE STORY!!!!!
Next time, keep your smarmy, egotistical comments to yourself. If you
don't like Eddings, that's fine, but don't sit here and bitch...
JUST DON'T READ HIM!!!!!
--
Because you know...Even idiots can type...
- Karl (kno...@agt.net)
The Thorny Rose
> Can't you see this whole thing about Garion living forever is just a
> crock, a mistake Eddings made, not realizing the kind of implications it
> would have for his characters.
phrophecy needs him. This thread was just discussing the implications
should this be a very long time or even forever.
>
It will happen. Meanwhile, what will happen to their
> children? Will they die, or will they live forever too? Speaking of
> which, what about the girls? Will they all be Dryads, and outlive their
> non-Dryad brothers? Or will they all be sorcerers? If they're not
> sorcerers, then surely Garion will outlive his children as well. What a
> curse that would be for old blue-eyes.
The girls will be dryads and long-lived. Geran is the only son and may or
may not be a sourcerer.
>
> This is why David Eddings, while a good author, did not create "a
> masterpiece" in either the Belgariad or Mallorean. There are too many
> unanswered implications, which Eddings won't answer because he doesn't
> know them. The story plots and turns are all the short-sighted workings
> of Lester Del Rey, he, and his wife Leigh.
Who said it was a master-piece? Its just good fun and best taken as such.
> At least with Raymond E. Feist, he's upfront about the subject of
> immortals having kids. Pugs kids will die, and whither while he stays
> young. His wife died, and his son is an old man commanding armies. The
> pain and awkwardness of seeing his children look like his grandparents
> is one of the reasons Pug remains aloof.
>
> But is Eddings courageous or intelligent enough to address such issues?
> Of course, not. He's just a foolish author who likes to write about old
> men getting it on with young women (particularly in his later works).
>
These issues were not really what it was about. The sourcerers are not
immortals, they are longlived. Issues about immortality may be interesting
but they are not the prime concern.
Julia
P.S. Can you post replies to the group alone and not to my email address
at the same time please? Thanks!
*******************************************************************************
Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean that
they aren't out to get you.
*******************************************************************************
Gusto Kim
The Thorny Rose wrote:
>
> > Can't you see this whole thing about Garion living forever is just a
> > crock, a mistake Eddings made, not realizing the kind of implications it
> > would have for his characters.
> Nothing actually says that Garion will live forever, only as long as the
> phrophecy needs him. This thread was just discussing the implications
> should this be a very long time or even forever.
Doesn't Garion complain to Polgara in Queen of Sorcery that while he'll live forever, he'll be
nothing but a uncompassionate monster (or words to that effect; and his words - not mine)? I think
this around the time when Garion was just beginning to discover his powers.
>
> > This is why David Eddings, while a good author, did not create "a
> > masterpiece" in either the Belgariad or Mallorean. There are too many
> > unanswered implications, which Eddings won't answer because he doesn't
> > know them. The story plots and turns are all the short-sighted workings
> > of Lester Del Rey, he, and his wife Leigh.
> Who said it was a master-piece? Its just good fun and best taken as such.
Some fellow Eddings fans I know mentioned master-piece and the Belgariad in the same sentence. :) I
really do like the Belgariad, especially the first three books. Pawn of Prophecy was probably the
best fantasy book I've ever read (I know it's not a stand-alone work but the story is wonderful and
the writing enchanting). I thought the tone and quality changed slightly with Castle of Wizardry,
and definitely felt the ending of Enchanter's Endgame seemed clumsy and rushed. Too many "THIS was
the real reason...THIS was the real battle...etc". But hey, these are just my opinions.
>
> These issues were not really what it was about. The sourcerers are not
> immortals, they are longlived. Issues about immortality may be interesting
> but they are not the prime concern.
> Julia
Agreed. I guess I liked the Belgariad so much I wanted it to be perfect.
> P.S. Can you post replies to the group alone and not to my email address
> at the same time please? Thanks!
Sorry about that. I will endeavour. BTW, do you think Eddings wrote the last book of the Belgariad
with the intent of doing another Garion series? If you read the conclusion of the duel scene
between Garion and Torak, it sounds as if the other opposing prophecy was eliminated once and for
all.
Gusto Kim
Karl Norton - who's probably even more insane than Gusto Kim :) - wrote:
> Who elected you the end all-be all of literary fantasy? How many
> novels have you had published? None? Didn't think so...
And who made you the barking guard-dog of this newsgroup? How many times have you ever considered
someone may have differing views from yourself? Never? Didn't think so...
> To personally attack Eddings, his wife, and the late Lester Del
The comment on Eddings being foolish went too far I admit. I apologize for that. It was audacious
indeed. However, I was not attacking Leigh or Lester. Simply put, they were collaboraters in the
Belgariad. If the series is good, they deserve part of the credit. If the series has flaws, they
can legitimately take part of the blame for them.
> Rey smacks of incredible audacity. The fact is that they produced an
> excellent series of books. Can you say the same? Didn't think so...
Wrong, I can say so. It was an excellent series. I own everyone of David Eddings books in fact. I'm
a big fan. Unlike you though I'm quite willing to admit that the author might have been a bit
shortsighted, and perhaps, just perhaps, this resulted in a few (though not necessarily glaring)
flaws in his books. Can't you say the same? Didn't think so...
> ...Old men and young women? Do you mean the Elenium and the Tamuli
> (Sparhawk and Elhana)?
> I've got news for you, Prude Boy. It happens all the time. Not
> to mention the fact that they're in love, they're married, and IT'S ONLY
> A MAKE BELIEVE STORY!!!!!
I wrote a post on this a while ago concerning the trend in Eddings books that closer he approached
middle age, the more you tended to see middle-aged characters like himself forming relationships
with young-looking women in his books.
This was not a moral comment, but was an observation passed on by an artist friend of mine (also a
fellow Eddings fan) who said this was probably just a reflection of a middle-aged man's
subconscious desire to engage in relationships with young women. At first, I scoffed off his
comments as crazy, but then he cited examples...that is, you see tend to see more age-equivalent
pairs in Eddings' early works: Garion & Ce'Nedra, Lelldorin & Ariana, Relg & Taiba, Hettar & Adara,
Mandorallen & Nerina, etc. A notable exception is Rhodar & Porenn. In his later works there are
still age-equivalent pairs, but you would also tend to see more middle-age looking men with pretty,
young-looking women: Silk & Velvet, Beldin & Vella, Belgarath & Poledra, Spawhawk & Elena, Kalten &
Alean, Vanion & Sephrenia.
> Next time, keep your smarmy, egotistical comments to yourself. If you
> don't like Eddings, that's fine, but don't sit here and bitch...
> JUST DON'T READ HIM!!!!!
I like Eddings, actually.
But if you're so negatively affected by MY comments, don't sit here and bitch...
JUST DON'T READ THEM!!!!!
Jadefire
In article <31C643...@deepcove.com>, Gusto Kim <s-gu...@deepcove.com> wrote:
> The Thorny Rose wrote:
[snip]
> Doesn't Garion complain to Polgara in Queen of Sorcery that while he'll
live forever, he'll be
> nothing but a uncompassionate monster (or words to that effect; and his
words - not mine)? I think
> this around the time when Garion was just beginning to discover his powers.
>
[snip]
Yeah, but he was only a kid. :-) I kinda like the way Garion had the
normal 'growing pangs' at this stage of his life, rebelling against
'parental authority', being confused about his abilities, asking "Why?",
etc.
Seeya Starside!
Jadefire K'Nevra
ech...@alpha1.curtin.edu.au
'Dehydration - 34%, Recollection of previous evening - 2%, embaressment factor - 91%. Advise repair schedule:- off line for 36 hours, re-boot startup disk, and replace head - wow, what a night!'
- Kryten, Red Dwarf -
Martel
kno...@agt.net (Karl Norton) wrote:
>Gusto Kim (who is probably insane) <s-gu...@deepcove.com> babbled
>incessantly:
>> Can't you see this whole thing about Garion living forever is just a
>> crock, a mistake Eddings made, not realizing the kind of implications it
>> would have for his characters.
>>
>> It means, like it or not, that Garion will outlive Ce'Nedra and see her
>> become a withered old hag (even if it takes 1000 years or so for her
>> tree to die). It will happen. Meanwhile, what will happen to their
>> children? Will they die, or will they live forever too? Speaking of
>> which, what about the girls? Will they all be Dryads, and outlive their
>> non-Dryad brothers? Or will they all be sorcerers? If they're not
>> sorcerers, then surely Garion will outlive his children as well. What a
>> curse that would be for old blue-eyes.
>>
>> This is why David Eddings, while a good author, did not create "a
>> masterpiece" in either the Belgariad or Mallorean. There are too many
>> unanswered implications, which Eddings won't answer because he doesn't
>> know them. The story plots and turns are all the short-sighted workings
>> of Lester Del Rey, he, and his wife Leigh.
>>
>babbles on about R.E.F...
>>
>> But is Eddings courageous or intelligent enough to address such issues?
>> Of course, not. He's just a foolish author who likes to write about old
>> men getting it on with young women (particularly in his later works).
>Ok, where shall I begin?
> Yes, Garion will outlive Ce'nedra, no question there. And we're
>not sure about what will happen to their children. I'll concede that
>point as well.
> Now then...
> Who elected you the end all-be all of literary fantasy? How many
>novels have you had published? None? Didn't think so...
> To personally attack Eddings, his wife, and the late Lester Del
>Rey smacks of incredible audacity. The fact is that they produced an
>excellent series of books. Can you say the same? Didn't think so...
> I, for one, am not bothered by the fact that everynitty, gritty
>detail is pounded to death in Eddings books. I like the fact that some
>questions remain unanswered.
> For crying out loud, it's a FANTASY SERIES. Ever think to USE
>YOUR IMAGINATION??!?!?!
>...Old men and young women? Do you mean the Elenium and the Tamuli
>(Sparhawk and Elhana)?
> I've got news for you, Prude Boy. It happens all the time. Not
>to mention the fact that they're in love, they're married, and IT'S ONLY
>A MAKE BELIEVE STORY!!!!!
>Next time, keep your smarmy, egotistical comments to yourself. If you
>don't like Eddings, that's fine, but don't sit here and bitch...
>JUST DON'T READ HIM!!!!!
>
>--
>Because you know...Even idiots can type...
>- Karl (kno...@agt.net)
Wow, I didn't have to say it this time.. Thank you for promptly
putting the schmuck in his place.. Or her, which ever the case may
be.,.
Jon Fenn
: > > Besides, how are the peasants of Riva going to react to a king who lives for
: > > hundreds of years...peasants tend to be superstitious and something like this
: > > could easily unnerve them a bit!
: > > Any ideas?
: > >
: > > Caleb
: >
: > This shouldn't be too much of a problem for them. After all they
: > seem quite used to the Orb and people like Belgarath coming and going.
: > Each will only see the King outliving them, why should more than that
: > bother them?
: > Julia
: You're all fools!
: Can't you see this whole thing about Garion living forever is just a
: crock, a mistake Eddings made, not realizing the kind of implications it
: would have for his characters.
: It means, like it or not, that Garion will outlive Ce'Nedra and see her
: become a withered old hag (even if it takes 1000 years or so for her
: tree to die). It will happen. Meanwhile, what will happen to their
: children? Will they die, or will they live forever too? Speaking of
: which, what about the girls? Will they all be Dryads, and outlive their
: non-Dryad brothers? Or will they all be sorcerers? If they're not
: sorcerers, then surely Garion will outlive his children as well. What a
: curse that would be for old blue-eyes.
: This is why David Eddings, while a good author, did not create "a
: masterpiece" in either the Belgariad or Mallorean. There are too many
: unanswered implications, which Eddings won't answer because he doesn't
: know them. The story plots and turns are all the short-sighted workings
: of Lester Del Rey, he, and his wife Leigh.
: At least with Raymond E. Feist, he's upfront about the subject of
: immortals having kids. Pugs kids will die, and whither while he stays
: young. His wife died, and his son is an old man commanding armies. The
: pain and awkwardness of seeing his children look like his grandparents
: is one of the reasons Pug remains aloof.
: But is Eddings courageous or intelligent enough to address such issues?
: Of course, not. He's just a foolish author who likes to write about old
: men getting it on with young women (particularly in his later works).
The book didn't come out and say that Belgarion would live forever did
it. If I remember right, it's been a couple of months, all they did was
hint at it. During a conversation about the number of Daughters
Belgarion was going to have Silk glanced at Belgarath then back at
Belgarion, I believe that was the closest that it was hinted at.
The Prophecy did say that Belgarion was done with his work except as
keeper of the Orb and the prophecy provided a heir to that job. So I
really don't believe Belgarion was going to live forever or much longer
as a normal human
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Raylor Dragon
-=(UDIC)=-
TG Malik Jekarian
LONG LIVE THE COES and the Jekarian Families!
jekar __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____
je...@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ /
/ / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ /-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rachel Ong
Aphrael917
Dammit, I can't figure how to quote messages in AOSmell, but this is in
reference to the bit about older men and younger women getting together in
Eddings' books. I'd just like to point out that, even though they LOOK
like young women, Sephrenia is like three hundred years older than Vanion,
and Polgara is Durnik's senior by three *thousnd* years, and I have a
feeling Cyradis is also a lot older than she looks. I think another issue
at stake here is, why do the women always have to look twenty even at age
three thousand while the men ar allowed to age? I think Belgarath touched
on that very somewhere in BtS, in fact.
Incidentally, does anyone think Sephrenia and Vanion will ever have
children, now that Bhelliom gave them back their youth?
Aphrael
William B Ward
Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong (I haven't read the series for,
gee... at least a few months :).
I seem to remember Belgarath explaining to Garion that he and the other
sorcerers would live an indefinate period of time. When Garion first came
to the Vale, and saw the blasted towers of the other sorcerers, Belgarath
explained that they just got "tired" with life.
My personal opinions and interpretations of the issue:
The so-called eternal life is not immortality. Belgarath, Belgarion, and
the others can and will die at some point. There are several examples of
this possibility through-out the books via natural and unnatural means.
I think this long life comes from two places. First, the gods can extend
the life of anyone they choose. Next, I believe that "magic" (kind of a
bad term) in its various forms (sorcery, witchcraft, demon worship, etc)
also extend life simply by using it.
Examples:
All of Aldur's disciples have very long lives because he gave them tasks
that would take thousands of years to accomplish. Torak's disciples follow
the same example. Granted the disciples are also sorcerers so maybe there
is a compounding effect?
Senji (sp?) was not a disciple associated with any god, but he had the
"gift". He was also long lived.
There are many other small-time characters who use some form of magic and
are also long-lived.
At some point, Belgarath explains (I believe to Garion) that he looks like
Aldur because they lived together for so long. I think that Belgarath also
explains that Sorcerer's apparent age is based upon how they think of
themselves.
Belgarath, for example, lived with Aldur for a long time and viewed
himself as an elderly, grey-haired, wisened man. Polgara, views herself as
a beautiful, regal, woman. They essentially fit themselves sub-conciously
into an image, and their bodies grow into it.
Again, as far as the 'eternal' lives of our main characters, I don't think
any of them will live forever. I don't think that Belgarion will have much
a desire for life after Ce'Nedra is gone (I believe she'll live as long as
her oak tree does - usually several hundred years). The rest of them will
probably live for however long they enjoy life. Most of them have spent
hundreds or thousands of years saving the world. It is time for them to
enjoy themselves, with friends and family.
Anyways, just a few of the thoughts I've formed after many readings.
Brad
Gussel Timer
bw...@frii.com (William B Ward) writes:
> Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong (I haven't read the series for,
> gee... at least a few months :).
>
> I seem to remember Belgarath explaining to Garion that he and the other
> sorcerers would live an indefinate period of time. When Garion first came
> to the Vale, and saw the blasted towers of the other sorcerers, Belgarath
> explained that they just got "tired" with life.
>
> My personal opinions and interpretations of the issue:
>
> The so-called eternal life is not immortality. Belgarath, Belgarion, and
But isn't there a quote in Queen of Sorcery where Garion complains that
while as a sorcerer he'll live forever, he'll be a monster? Now, Garion
could be mistaken about the situation, but that's a fair indication he'll
be around for a long time.
I don't think whether he lives forever is really the point, but that
there are some weird scenarios that will occur due to his long lifespan,
and Eddings doesn't address any of it really.
To his credit, he tackles some of them in BtS when Belgarath mentions how
terrible it must be for Polgara to have all those descendants of Iron-Grip
(all of whom she loves) grow old and die. But we never have a situation where
an old one is in the same room with her. I want to a see an 70
Daran call 25-year-old-looking Polgara "Aunt Pol". :-) The same situation occured
Beldaran. She died while still young. We never had to see the painful situation
of Beldaran becoming an old woman while Polgara remained young.
If Eriond had made some sort of Proclamation that from now on sorcerers, Dryads, etc
would all live "normal" lifespans, then there wouldn't be this problem. :-)
Ray Sculthorpe
In article <4qarj6$6...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
aphra...@aol.com (Aphrael917) wrote:
Belgarath noted the fact that Polgara looked the same at age 25 and 300+,
except that her eyes were wiser. The surviving male disciples of Aldur had
all acquired wrinkles, gray hair, and a distinguished look. He guessed that
a sorcerer is supposed to look distinguished and wise, but a sorceress with
gray hair and wrinkles would be called a crone. I think we could assume that
Polgara would not appreciate being called a crone. 'The notion that we
somehow create ourselves is intriguing', is a subject that he wanted to
study.
Sephrenia and Vanion will probably have children. Now that all the
excitement is over, it will give them something to do. BTW, wasn't Vanion
the only one made younger by Bhelliom?
Ray
The JamesHead
I've always wondered about Ce'Nedra and Garion. One is gonna live for a
while, the other won't. I finally decide that once Ce'Nedra dies, Garion
will move to the Vale and build his own tower. But what about his son?
Will Geran be a sorceror as well? I think I'm correct in assuming that
Garion is the only sorceror in his blood line after Belgarath and
Polgara, and he's only one because he was the one who had to go fight
Torak, as the Child Of Light. Hmmm...
Perhaps if we want, we could go throught every book, and with BtS find
every single inconsistency, then right up a great proclamation stating
how terrible a writing duo David and Leigh are, then send it around to
everyone to sing, and finally on to D and L...Yeah, that'd be great!!!
The JamesHead
Gussel Timer
Hahah, nah they're good writers and storytellers. They just don't
qualify as literary greats, that's all (due to the inconsistencies among
other things). :-) I thought the first 3 books of the Belgariad were
really great books. The quality drops off a bit with Demon Lord being
the worst of all the books...but there's something about them that's
very appealing. The Eddings duo don't write great literary masterpieces
that make logical sense, but they ARE very..what is the word?
Likable..pleasing, I guess.
Ken Weiher
The JamesHead wrote:
>
> Perhaps if we want, we could go throught every book, and with BtS find
> every single inconsistency, then right up a great proclamation stating
> how terrible a writing duo David and Leigh are, then send it around to
> everyone to sing, and finally on to D and L...Yeah, that'd be great!!!
>
> The JamesHead
Sorry, but I'm not singing anything! (Except maybe in the shower!)
KEN
Buddy Cook
>The so-called eternal life is not immortality. Belgarath, Belgarion, and
>Brad
I recall that Belgarath told Garion that he simply lived longer because his
task- the reason for him existing- took longer for him to accomplish than most
people's did. So I guess whenever Garion is done with whatever task he was
supposed to accomplish, he'll stop existing...
Bethany
One Slimy Hog
, and I have a
>feeling Cyradis is also a lot older than she looks.
...raising a very good question. How old is Cyradis?
Simon1
Michael Slade
>
> I've always wondered about Ce'Nedra and Garion. One is gonna live for a
> while, the other won't. I finally decide that once Ce'Nedra dies, Garion
> will move to the Vale and build his own tower. But what about his son?
> Will Geran be a sorceror as well? I think I'm correct in assuming that
> Garion is the only sorceror in his blood line after Belgarath and
> Polgara, and he's only one because he was the one who had to go fight
> Torak, as the Child Of Light. Hmmm...
Belgarath had two daughters, Polgara the sorceress, and Beldaran who married
Riva Iron-Grip, and became the mother of the Rivan line (leading eventually
to Garion). In BtS, Belgarath explored the mind of Beldaran's first son, and
made a comment something like he had the talent, and that all later sons did
too. I took this to mean that all the Rivan heirs had the talent to perform
sorcery, except they never developed it until Garion.
So I guess Geran has the capability - it is just a question of whether they
will develop it or not.
> Perhaps if we want, we could go throught every book, and with BtS find
> every single inconsistency, then right up a great proclamation stating
> how terrible a writing duo David and Leigh are, then send it around to
> everyone to sing, and finally on to D and L...Yeah, that'd be great!!!
Too many, and what is the point? I would have thought it would be better to
build up D and L rather than tear them down. Sure the books have many
inconsistencies, but they still make great reading.
Michael.
--
Michael Slade
mcs...@acmis.mat.army.defence.gov.au
Martel
>Simon1
2, maybe 3..
Justin Hall
>kno...@agt.net (Karl Norton) wrote:
>>
>Wow, I didn't have to say it this time.. Thank you for promptly
>putting the schmuck in his place.. Or her, which ever the case may
>be.,.
I was waiting for your "response" to that the minute I read it :)
Slash off the quotes next time, that sucker was LONG. :)
"God was a Gendian Knight before He took the Universe in hand.." -Ulath
Justin "Skale" Hall hal...@one.net http://w3.one.net/~halldp/
Justin Hall
>In article <4qarj6$6...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> aphra...@aol.com (Aphrael917) writes:
>, and I have a
>>feeling Cyradis is also a lot older than she looks.
>...raising a very good question. How old is Cyradis?
Too old. She was around before Belgarath, probably one of the first
seers...
Tony Hoffman
hal...@one.net (Justin Hall) wrote:
>sch...@hermes.cam.ac.uk (One Slimy Hog) wrote:
>>In article <4qarj6$6...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> aphra...@aol.com (Aphrael917) writes:
>>, and I have a
>>>feeling Cyradis is also a lot older than she looks.
>>...raising a very good question. How old is Cyradis?
>Too old. She was around before Belgarath, probably one of the first
>seers...
Gee, I found myself feeling strangely attracted to her. But then I've
always gone for older women. :-)
--
Tony Hoffman
(to...@quicklink.com)
``There are no wrong turnings. Only paths we had
not known we were meant to walk.''--Guy Gavriel Kay
Kalten
Ray Sculthorpe (hgry...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: In article <4qarj6$6...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
: aphra...@aol.com (Aphrael917) wrote:
: >Dammit, I can't figure how to quote messages in AOSmell, but this is in
: >reference to the bit about older men and younger women getting together in
: >Eddings' books. I'd just like to point out that, even though they LOOK
: >like young women, Sephrenia is like three hundred years older than Vanion,
: >and Polgara is Durnik's senior by three *thousnd* years, and I have a
: >feeling Cyradis is also a lot older than she looks. I think another issue
: >at stake here is, why do the women always have to look twenty even at age
: >three thousand while the men ar allowed to age? I think Belgarath touched
: >on that very somewhere in BtS, in fact.
Because women worry more about their appearance than men do.
I mean, Beldin just has to make a single comment about Polgara's backside
being a bit large and Polgara goes on a diet of rabbit food.
: >
: >Incidentally, does anyone think Sephrenia and Vanion will ever have
: >children, now that Bhelliom gave them back their youth?
No, at least not for the next few years. Sephrenia's been around for
quite a while and everything is 'been there, done that'. Even God
killing got a bit boring the second time round. However, shagging Vanion
was something she had never done before. He was the first to go where no
man had gone before.
Which is why Sephrenia gets annoyed when Sparhawk dials a spell ringing
her up in the middle of the night.
It'll be quite a while before they'll try for kids....trust me on this one.
Besides, Sephrenia might be barren.
: >
: >Aphrael
: Belgarath noted the fact that Polgara looked the same at age 25 and 300+,
: except that her eyes were wiser.
I thought Belgarath noted the fact that Polgara looked the same age at 25
and 300+ except that her eyes were wider?
: The surviving male disciples of Aldur had
: all acquired wrinkles, gray hair, and a distinguished look. He guessed that
: a sorcerer is supposed to look distinguished and wise, but a sorceress with
: gray hair and wrinkles would be called a crone. I think we could assume that
: Polgara would not appreciate being called a crone. 'The notion that we
: somehow create ourselves is intriguing', is a subject that he wanted to
: study.
No, it was hard enough getting the Tolnedrans believing he was 7000 years
old, whilst in the form of an oldie.
: Sephrenia and Vanion will probably have children. Now that all the
: excitement is over, it will give them something to do. BTW, wasn't Vanion
: the only one made younger by Bhelliom?
No, Sephrenia lost her wrinkles and stretch marks.
I think that they'll probably go out in a foursome with Elhaana and Sparhawk.
Kalten~!!!
: Ray
Kalten
: >In article <4qarj6$6...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> aphra...@aol.com (Aphrael917) writes:
: >, and I have a
: >>feeling Cyradis is also a lot older than she looks.
: >...raising a very good question. How old is Cyradis?
: >Simon1
Is that taking into account the time when she was a bloke, or was that
after the sex-change.
Kalten~!!!
: 2, maybe 3..
Eileen Brown
hal...@one.net (Justin Hall) wrote:
>sch...@hermes.cam.ac.uk (One Slimy Hog) wrote:
>>In article <4qarj6$6...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> aphra...@aol.com (Aphrael917) writes:
>>, and I have a
>>>feeling Cyradis is also a lot older than she looks.
>>...raising a very good question. How old is Cyradis?
>Too old. She was around before Belgarath, probably one of the first
>seers...
Does it say this anywhere in the Malloreon? If so, where? I was just
going on a hunch that she's a lot older.
Aphrael
Eileen Brown
cm3b...@bs47c.staffs.ac.uk (Kalten) wrote:
>Ray Sculthorpe (hgry...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: In article <4qarj6$6...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>: aphra...@aol.com (Aphrael917) wrote:
>: >Dammit, I can't figure how to quote messages in AOSmell, but this is in
>: >reference to the bit about older men and younger women getting together in
>: >Eddings' books. I'd just like to point out that, even though they LOOK
>: >like young women, Sephrenia is like three hundred years older than Vanion,
>: >and Polgara is Durnik's senior by three *thousnd* years, and I have a
>: >feeling Cyradis is also a lot older than she looks. I think another issue
>: >at stake here is, why do the women always have to look twenty even at age
>: >three thousand while the men ar allowed to age? I think Belgarath touched
>: >on that very somewhere in BtS, in fact.
>Because women worry more about their appearance than men do.
>I mean, Beldin just has to make a single comment about Polgara's backside
>being a bit large and Polgara goes on a diet of rabbit food.
I didn't particularly notice that. I got more of an impression that
Polgara took those opportunities to point out that Beldin criticizing
anyone's appearance is a classic example of the pot calling the
kettle.
>: >
>: >Incidentally, does anyone think Sephrenia and Vanion will ever have
>: >children, now that Bhelliom gave them back their youth?
>No, at least not for the next few years. Sephrenia's been around for
>quite a while and everything is 'been there, done that'. Even God
>killing got a bit boring the second time round. However, shagging Vanion
>was something she had never done before. He was the first to go where no
>man had gone before.
Do we know that for a fact?
That brings up another interesting point. Why is it that Aphrael's
birth as Sephrenia's sister supposedly meant that Sephrenia would be
wholly devoted to Aphrael and would therefore be unable to marry
Zalasta as their families had arranged, yet some three hundred years
later, Aphrael has absolutely no problem with her shacking up with an
Elene knight who is technically a high clergyman of a heathen (from
the Styrics' point of view) religion? I mean, Zalasta was supposedly
an upstaqnding member of the Styric community, while Vanion is of a
race that has been brutalizing the Styrics for eons
.
>Which is why Sephrenia gets annoyed when Sparhawk dials a spell ringing
>her up in the middle of the night.
Hehehe . . . I think that particular scene had to be the most classic
moment in the entire Elenium-Tamuli series. So much for calling while
the rates are down <G>. I wonder if Aphrael is a licensed long
distance carrier.
>It'll be quite a while before they'll try for kids....trust me on this one.
>Besides, Sephrenia might be barren.
Why would she be? I mean, why her of all the women in the Elen/Tam
series? Also, keep in mind that she and Vanion were shacking up
already for a number of years. The only thing that's really changed
is that now it's official. Well, that and Vanion now looks twenty-
something rather than sixtysomething.
>: Sephrenia and Vanion will probably have children. Now that all the
>: excitement is over, it will give them something to do. BTW, wasn't Vanion
>: the only one made younger by Bhelliom?
>No, Sephrenia lost her wrinkles and stretch marks.
Stretch marks???
>I think that they'll probably go out in a foursome with Elhaana and Sparhawk.
You think Kalten and Alean might join in the fun, too?
Hey, as long as we're being perverted . . .
Aphrael
aph...@mail.microserve.net
Kerryn
cm3b...@bs47c.staffs.ac.uk (Kalten) wrote:
>: >Incidentally, does anyone think Sephrenia and Vanion will ever have
>: >children, now that Bhelliom gave them back their youth?
>No, at least not for the next few years. Sephrenia's been around for
>quite a while and everything is 'been there, done that'. Even God
>killing got a bit boring the second time round. However, shagging Vanion
>was something she had never done before. He was the first to go where no
>man had gone before.
>Which is why Sephrenia gets annoyed when Sparhawk dials a spell ringing
>her up in the middle of the night.
>It'll be quite a while before they'll try for kids....trust me on this one.
>Besides, Sephrenia might be barren.
If Sephrenia and Vanion really wanted to have kids, I think they
would stand a pretty good chance. After all, even if she was barren,
or if Vanion was shooting blanks, Aphrael would have to step in and
help. I mean, of all her "worshipers" (for want of a better term),
Sephrenia would have to one of those closest to her personally, and
she would do alot to make her happy.
Kerryn
Aphrael
rlg...@pfs01.cc.monash.edu.au (Kerryn) wrote:
>cm3b...@bs47c.staffs.ac.uk (Kalten) wrote:
>Kerryn
This is true--look how hysterical Aphrael got when Zalasta tried to
kill Sephrenia. After all, Sephrenia *has* been like both a sister
and a mother to Aphrael for several centuries now. But how could
Aphrael "step in" in the event of infertility? She can't exactly
remedy the problem they way she did with Sparhawk and Ehlana.
Aphrael
"Hold onto nothing as fast as you can . . . "
--Tori Amos
Kerryn
aph...@microserve.net (Aphrael) wrote:
>rlg...@pfs01.cc.monash.edu.au (Kerryn) wrote:
>>cm3b...@bs47c.staffs.ac.uk (Kalten) wrote:
>>Kerryn
Good question. But I think that would be DE's problem. I suppose
Aphrael would have some way to do it, after all she made them both
"young" again didn't she, and she changes her own appearance all the
time. And even if she could not do it all by herself I am sure she
would convince the other Styric gods to give her a hand. Sephrenia
does seem to be quite popular among the deity.
Kerryn
Buddy Cook
>I've always wondered about Ce'Nedra and Garion. One is gonna live for a
>while, the other won't. I finally decide that once Ce'Nedra dies, Garion
>will move to the Vale and build his own tower. But what about his son?
>Will Geran be a sorceror as well? I think I'm correct in assuming that
>Garion is the only sorceror in his blood line after Belgarath and
>Polgara, and he's only one because he was the one who had to go fight
>Torak, as the Child Of Light. Hmmm...
If I recall properly, Garion's mark on his hand was supposed to be his
sorcerer's mark, just as Polgara's was her white lock of hair and Belgarath's
was somewhere else. But it's a bit confusing, then, that Garion's father
(whom we must assume also had the mark, it is hereditary) wasn't one, if it's
a sorcerer's mark. Perhaps Garion's was different, but that was never
explained.
Bethant
Diablo-Boy
bud...@teleport.com (Buddy Cook) wrote:
>If I recall properly, Garion's mark on his hand was supposed to be his
>sorcerer's mark, just as Polgara's was her white lock of hair and Belgarath's was somewhere else. But it's a bit confusing, then, =
that Garion's father (whom we must assume also had the mark, it is hereditary) wasn't one, if it's a sorcerer's mark. Perhaps Gario=
n's was different, but that was never explained.
>
>Bethant
>
>
No. The mark on Garion's palm was the mark of the Rivan throne. His father
DID have the mark as well, but obviously he wasn't a Sorcerer, just a
simple stone mason (if I remember correctly). I'm not entierly(sp?) sure
Garion had a Sorcerer's mark...The more I think about it, the less I'm
sure you were supposed to have a "mark" just for being a Sorcerer.
Polgara's mark was put there by Belgarath the first time he touched her;
this was an isolated case. Perhaps this event had something to do with
Pol's eventual grasp of the Will and the Word, but I'm almost certain the
mark in her hair, and the fact she's a Sorceress, aren't synonomous(sp?).
In fact, I don't recall any of the others having marks at all, aside from
the "Bel" of course.
Just a thought...
R.L.
Buddy Cook
>>If I recall properly, Garion's mark on his hand was supposed to be his
>>sorcerer's mark, just as Polgara's was her white lock of hair and Belgarath's
>was somewhere else. But it's a bit confusing, then, =
>that Garion's father (whom we must assume also had the mark, it is hereditary)
>wasn't one, if it's a sorcerer's mark. Perhaps Gario=
>n's was different, but that was never explained.
>>
>>Bethany
>No. The mark on Garion's palm was the mark of the Rivan throne. His father
>DID have the mark as well, but obviously he wasn't a Sorcerer, just a
>simple stone mason (if I remember correctly). I'm not entierly(sp?) sure
>Garion had a Sorcerer's mark...The more I think about it, the less I'm
>sure you were supposed to have a "mark" just for being a Sorcerer.
>Polgara's mark was put there by Belgarath the first time he touched her;
>this was an isolated case. Perhaps this event had something to do with
>Pol's eventual grasp of the Will and the Word, but I'm almost certain the
>mark in her hair, and the fact she's a Sorceress, aren't synonomous(sp?).
>In fact, I don't recall any of the others having marks at all, aside from
>the "Bel" of course.
>Just a thought...
> R.L.
Polgara did get her mark when Belgarath touched her the first time, but it
said he was worried about it because it was the mark of a sorcerer and there
hadn't been any female ones (I think that's what it said- what about Poldera?).
Garion and Belgarath had some discussion about it once- at least I thought so.
I can't prove it because I don't remember which book. I thought Belgarath
said that he had a mark somewhere, and that Garion's mark on his hand was his
mark. I don't know anything about any of them having a mark. If I remembered
all that correctly, did Durnick get a mark?
Willam(Haplo) E. Dunn Jr.
Actually I had thought that the white mark something to do with in
someway being directly involved with the Orb, and the destinies. A mark
showing that they would be influnced in someway by the destiny to which
they were headed. The ability to do magic is based on the desire to do
magic and little else(The WILL and the WORD). Garion was marked since
his great(many times over) Grandfather Belgarth had interacted with the
Orb, His Great grandfather(one less time over) Riva has interacted with
the stone, and he would interact. Pol was marked for the same reason.
It also seems to me that anyone of Garion's line might have used magic
also, but Garion was the only one that Garth bothered to teach. Still
it was a needed evil as the use of magic grants a longer life and at the
time of choosing Garion had to be the only one of his Line when he
fought Torak.
Haplo
Sorry I cut the previous message my news utility is drivim me nuts and
wouldn't send the message with it included
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||
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Lisa M. Disalvo
Buddy Cook (bud...@teleport.com) wrote:
: >>If I recall properly, Garion's mark on his hand was supposed to be his
: > R.L.
Well, I don't know about Durnik getting a mark, unless he got some scars
from the hammer :) Polgara, Belgarath, and Belgarion all DO have marks
though. Belgarion's mark IS the mark on his palm (and it's the mark of
the Rivan Throne...wow...think about it...it is possible for something to
have more than 1 meaning). Polgara's mark is the white lock on her
brow. That is stated MANY times throughout the series. Belgarath's mark
is just over his heart. It can not normally be seen, because he IS
usually clothed (unless he's in Maragor..hehehehe). I dont' recall what
book Belgarath's mark is revealed in, but then again, I don't have the
time to look up all my references, I just happened to remember. :) It IS
there though, if you don't believe me, read the series' again...it'll do
you some good :)
Kheldar
ind...@oz.kis.net
Diablo-Boy (This@Isn't.valid) wrote:
: bud...@teleport.com (Buddy Cook) wrote:
: >If I recall properly, Garion's mark on his hand was supposed to be his
: >sorcerer's mark, just as Polgara's was her white lock of hair and Belgarath's was somewhere else. But it's a bit confusing, then, =
: that Garion's father (whom we must assume also had the mark, it is hereditary) wasn't one, if it's a sorcerer's mark. Perhaps Gario=
: n's was different, but that was never explained.
: >Bethant
: No. The mark on Garion's palm was the mark of the Rivan throne. His father
: DID have the mark as well, but obviously he wasn't a Sorcerer, just a
: simple stone mason (if I remember correctly). I'm not entierly(sp?) sure
: Garion had a Sorcerer's mark...The more I think about it, the less I'm
: sure you were supposed to have a "mark" just for being a Sorcerer.
: Polgara's mark was put there by Belgarath the first time he touched her;
: this was an isolated case. Perhaps this event had something to do with
: Pol's eventual grasp of the Will and the Word, but I'm almost certain the
: mark in her hair, and the fact she's a Sorceress, aren't synonomous(sp?).
: In fact, I don't recall any of the others having marks at all, aside from
: the "Bel" of course.
: Just a thought...
I on other hand seem to recal Polgara telling Belgarion at some point in
time "We all have it" where it refers to the mark. I am less sure of this,
but I think that Belgarath's mark was on his chest.
: R.L.
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
ind...@oz.kis.net
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Diablo-Boy
khe...@netline.net (Lisa M. Disalvo) wrote:
>Well, I don't know about Durnik getting a mark, unless he got some scars
>from the hammer :) Polgara, Belgarath, and Belgarion all DO have marks
>though. Belgarion's mark IS the mark on his palm (and it's the mark of
>the Rivan Throne...wow...think about it...it is possible for something to
>have more than 1 meaning). Polgara's mark is the white lock on her
>brow. That is stated MANY times throughout the series. Belgarath's mark
>is just over his heart. It can not normally be seen, because he IS
>usually clothed (unless he's in Maragor..hehehehe). I dont' recall what
>book Belgarath's mark is revealed in, but then again, I don't have the
>time to look up all my references, I just happened to remember. :) It IS
>there though, if you don't believe me, read the series' again...it'll do
>you some good :)
>
>Kheldar
>
Aaahhhh....NOW I remember....This is true; HOWEVER (ok, let's see how
badly I can screew up THIS post), the cases you've stated are just within
Belgarath's family. I thought it was said (were's an original post when
you need one...) that ALL sorcerers had a mark. To the best of my
knowledge Eddings never mentioned anything about Beldin or the others
having a mark of this kind. Yes, all sorcerers in Belgarath's family have
a mark but my point originally was that not ALL sorcerers had a mark. Your
post reminded me that every one in Belgarath's family who could wield
the Will and the Word did indeed have a sorcerers mark, but I would still
stand by my first post (if but at a distance ;) ) in stating that
sorcerers by and large didn't have a "mark" to identify them as such...
WHEW!!! That was a mouthfull....
Just a thought...
R.L.
James Guillaume
Buddy Cook wrote:
>
> >I've always wondered about Ce'Nedra and Garion. One is gonna live for a
> >while, the other won't. I finally decide that once Ce'Nedra dies, Garion
> >will move to the Vale and build his own tower. But what about his son?
> >Will Geran be a sorceror as well? I think I'm correct in assuming that
> >Garion is the only sorceror in his blood line after Belgarath and
> >Polgara, and he's only one because he was the one who had to go fight
> >Torak, as the Child Of Light. Hmmm...
>
> sorcerer's mark, just as Polgara's was her white lock of hair and Belgarath's
> (whom we must assume also had the mark, it is hereditary) wasn't one, if it's
> explained.
>
> Bethant
On a slightly different note re Geran and if he is also a sorcerer, my
own personal opinion is that he must be or at least have the latent power
otherwise he could not possibly have become the new god or was he going
to receive all of his power from the two stones?.
In one of the earlier books, they stumble across Sanjay at the University
of Melcene I think and he mentions having taken on students and teaching
some of them the will and the word. If that was the case then surely
Garion and co could teach Geran if it turns out he's not a sorcerer.
Jaffacake
Eric Wu
>Well, I don't know about Durnik getting a mark, unless he got some scars
>from the hammer :) Polgara, Belgarath, and Belgarion all DO have marks
>though. Belgarion's mark IS the mark on his palm (and it's the mark of
>the Rivan Throne...wow...think about it...it is possible for something to
>have more than 1 meaning). Polgara's mark is the white lock on her
>brow. That is stated MANY times throughout the series. Belgarath's mark
>is just over his heart. It can not normally be seen, because he IS
>usually clothed (unless he's in Maragor..hehehehe). I dont' recall what
>book Belgarath's mark is revealed in, but then again, I don't have the
>time to look up all my references, I just happened to remember. :) It IS
>there though, if you don't believe me, read the series' again...it'll do
>you some good :)
>Kheldar
Guardians of the West.
-- Eric W. (http://members.gnn.com/EricW910/eric.htm)
Jason Tamez
Quothe the Raven, "Nevermore!"; Quothe Lisa M. Disalvo:
LM> Buddy Cook (bud...@teleport.com) wrote:
LM>
LM> : >>If I recall properly, Garion's mark on his hand was supposed to be his
LM> : >>sorcerer's mark, just as Polgara's was her white lock of hair and Belga
LM> : >was somewhere else. But it's a bit confusing, then, =
LM> : >that Garion's father (whom we must assume also had the mark, it is hered
LM> : >wasn't one, if it's a sorcerer's mark. Perhaps Gario=
LM> : >n's was different, but that was never explained.
LM> : >>
LM> : >>Bethany
LM>
LM> : >No. The mark on Garion's palm was the mark of the Rivan throne. His fath
LM> : >DID have the mark as well, but obviously he wasn't a Sorcerer, just a
LM> : >simple stone mason (if I remember correctly). I'm not entierly(sp?) sure
LM> : >Garion had a Sorcerer's mark...The more I think about it, the less I'm
LM> : >sure you were supposed to have a "mark" just for being a Sorcerer.
LM> : >Polgara's mark was put there by Belgarath the first time he touched her;
LM> : >this was an isolated case. Perhaps this event had something to do with
LM> : >Pol's eventual grasp of the Will and the Word, but I'm almost certain th
LM> : >mark in her hair, and the fact she's a Sorceress, aren't synonomous(sp?)
LM> : >In fact, I don't recall any of the others having marks at all, aside fro
LM> : >the "Bel" of course.
LM> : >Just a thought...
LM>
LM> : Polgara did get her mark when Belgarath touched her the first time, but i
LM> : said he was worried about it because it was the mark of a sorcerer and th
LM> : hadn't been any female ones (I think that's what it said- what about Pold
LM> : Garion and Belgarath had some discussion about it once- at least I though
LM> : I can't prove it because I don't remember which book. I thought Belgara
LM> : said that he had a mark somewhere, and that Garion's mark on his hand was
LM> : mark. I don't know anything about any of them having a mark. If I remem
LM> : all that correctly, did Durnick get a mark?
LM>
LM> Well, I don't know about Durnik getting a mark, unless he got some scars
LM> from the hammer :) Polgara, Belgarath, and Belgarion all DO have marks
LM> though. Belgarion's mark IS the mark on his palm (and it's the mark of
LM> the Rivan Throne...wow...think about it...it is possible for something to
LM> have more than 1 meaning). Polgara's mark is the white lock on her
LM> brow. That is stated MANY times throughout the series. Belgarath's mark
LM> is just over his heart. It can not normally be seen, because he IS
LM> usually clothed (unless he's in Maragor..hehehehe). I dont' recall what
LM> book Belgarath's mark is revealed in, but then again, I don't have the
LM> time to look up all my references, I just happened to remember. :) It IS
LM> there though, if you don't believe me, read the series' again...it'll do
LM> you some good :)
In BtS, it is shown that Riva got his mark from the Orb, which was
given to every other member of the Rivan line from then on. It is also
shown that it's a mark of sorcery, because Belgarath has Riva unleash
his will upon Torak's Dogs when Torak breaks the Profesy (sp?) Riva
wasn't ever supposed to, but the Prof. breaking allowed him to unleash
his will to fix things.
Due to this, all the Rivan Kings probably had sorcerous talent, but
only Garion had enough power and enough control to do anything with it,
as well as the backing of the Prof.
E-mail: jason...@lunatic.com
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The Lunatic Fringe * Richardson, TX * 214-235-5288 * Home Of FringeNet
Kerryn
Kalten
Kerryn (rlg...@pfs01.cc.monash.edu.au) wrote:
: aph...@microserve.net (Aphrael) wrote:
: >rlg...@pfs01.cc.monash.edu.au (Kerryn) wrote:
: >>cm3b...@bs47c.staffs.ac.uk (Kalten) wrote:
: >>Kerryn
Why not? Then Aphrael could call Sephrenia mum as well as sister and
worshipper.
: Good question. But I think that would be DE's problem. I suppose
: Aphrael would have some way to do it, after all she made them both
: "young" again didn't she, and she changes her own appearance all the
: time. And even if she could not do it all by herself I am sure she
: would convince the other Styric gods to give her a hand. Sephrenia
: does seem to be quite popular among the deity.
Being a god, she could have some fun.
She could make Sephrenia give birth to a troll.
At least it would make Vanion wonder where Seph was spending her nights.
Kalten~!!!
: Kerryn
Rad
>I live, but am not alive
>I am dead, but cannot die
>
woah....please don't mind me using this phrase in a book i'm writing..
Aphrael
>: >>>No, at least not for the next few years. Sephrenia's been around for
>: >>>quite a while and everything is 'been there, done that'. Even God
>: >>>killing got a bit boring the second time round. However, shagging Vanion
>: >>>was something she had never done before. He was the first to go where no
>: >>>man had gone before.
I'm curious--is "shag" a British slang term for doing the nasty? I
don't think I've ever heard it in America before.
>: >This is true--look how hysterical Aphrael got when Zalasta tried to
>: >kill Sephrenia. After all, Sephrenia *has* been like both a sister
>: >and a mother to Aphrael for several centuries now. But how could
>: >Aphrael "step in" in the event of infertility? She can't exactly
>: >remedy the problem they way she did with Sparhawk and Ehlana.
>Why not? Then Aphrael could call Sephrenia mum as well as sister and
>worshipper.
Because Aphrael can be in two places at once, but it's not very
efficient. That is, when she's busy with Sparhawk & Co. as Flute,
she's almost comatose as Danae. Which is why Ehlana thought Danae was
sick while Sparhawk and friends went after Bhelliom. Now, if Danae is
going to be Queen of Elenia, she can't very well be comatose half the
time because she's busy being Sephrenia and Vanion's daughter. So if
Aphrael's goign to help out, it's not going to be in the same way she
helped Sparhawk and Ehlana.
>: Good question. But I think that would be DE's problem. I suppose
>: Aphrael would have some way to do it, after all she made them both
>: "young" again didn't she, and she changes her own appearance all the
>: time. And even if she could not do it all by herself I am sure she
>: would convince the other Styric gods to give her a hand. Sephrenia
>: does seem to be quite popular among the deity.
Um, a side note to Kerryn--Aphrael *didn't* bmake Sephrenia and Vanion
young again--it was Bhelliom that did that.
>Being a god, she could have some fun.
>She could make Sephrenia give birth to a troll.
>At least it would make Vanion wonder where Seph was spending her nights.
ROFL!
Heh, but seriously, Aphrael would never do that--especially after she
more or less forced the Troll-Gods to sign their own death warrant by
limiting the number of babies their children can have. Besides, a
full-grown Troll is like twice as big as Ulath, and Sephrenia's most
distinguishing physical characteristic is her smallness--that would be
a painful delivery!!!
Hehe it would probably re-age Vanion very quickly, though! <G>
Aphrael
aph...@microserve.net
"Ah, yes, Countess, but *vertical* dancing is in vogue just
now. The horizontal form hasn't caught on in the more
fashionable circles, and we *do* want to be stylish, don't we?"
--Stragen, to one of his whores (TSR)
Aphrael
cm3b...@bs47c.staffs.ac.uk (Kalten) wrote:
>: >>>No, at least not for the next few years. Sephrenia's been around for
>: >>>quite a while and everything is 'been there, done that'. Even God
>: >>>killing got a bit boring the second time round. However, shagging Vanion
>: >>>was something she had never done before. He was the first to go where no
>: >>>man had gone before.
I'm curious--is "shag" a UK slang term for doing the nasty? I don't
think I've ever heard it before.
>: >This is true--look how hysterical Aphrael got when Zalasta tried to
>: >kill Sephrenia. After all, Sephrenia *has* been like both a sister
>: >and a mother to Aphrael for several centuries now. But how could
>: >Aphrael "step in" in the event of infertility? She can't exactly
>: >remedy the problem they way she did with Sparhawk and Ehlana.
>Why not? Then Aphrael could call Sephrenia mum as well as sister and
>worshipper.
She couldn't do what she did with Sparhawk and Ehlana because she's
already got one human incarnation going (Danae). She does make
appearances as Flute while she's also Danae, and she can be in two
places at once, but it's really not a very efficient way to operate on
a permanent basis. Whenever Aphrael is busy as Flute, she's almost
comatose as Danae and vice versa--remember how the gang have to chop
their way through the Cynesgan border guards because Aphrael was too
busy in her Danae incarnation at the time to help them out as Flute.
Since Danae will be Queen of Elenia someday, I don't think it would
work very well if she was comatose half the time because Aphrael was
too busy being Sephrenia and Vanion's daughter.
Besides, Aphrael is already Sephrenia's sister, so she'd be her own
aunt!!!
>: Good question. But I think that would be DE's problem. I suppose
>: Aphrael would have some way to do it, after all she made them both
>: "young" again didn't she, and she changes her own appearance all the
>: time. And even if she could not do it all by herself I am sure she
>: would convince the other Styric gods to give her a hand. Sephrenia
>: does seem to be quite popular among the deity.
A minor side note to Kerryn--Aphrael *didn't* make Sephrenia and
Vanion young again--it was Bhelliom that did that.
>Being a god, she could have some fun.
>She could make Sephrenia give birth to a troll.
>At least it would make Vanion wonder where Seph was spending her nights.
ROFL!
Heh, actually, I don't think Aphrael would deal in Trolls--especially
after she more or less forced the Troll-Gods to sign their own
death-warrant by restricting the number of children they could have.
Besides, a full-grown Troll is twice as big as Ulath, and Sephrenia's
most noted physical characteristic is her smallness--somehow I don't
think Aphrael would make her favorite disciple go through a delivery
like that! :+) I know I wouldn't if I were Aphrael...wait, I *am*
Aphrael...<G>
Justin Hall
cm3b...@bs47c.staffs.ac.uk (Kalten) wrote:
>: Good question. But I think that would be DE's problem. I suppose
>: Aphrael would have some way to do it, after all she made them both
>: "young" again didn't she, and she changes her own appearance all the
>: time. And even if she could not do it all by herself I am sure she
>: would convince the other Styric gods to give her a hand. Sephrenia
>: does seem to be quite popular among the deity.
>She could make Sephrenia give birth to a troll.
>At least it would make Vanion wonder where Seph was spending her nights.
OW. Giving birth to a troll (unless you're one) might hurt a tad...
and Sephrenia would probably disown Aphrael at that point...
Cassandra Smathers
Buddy Cook wrote:
>
> >I've always wondered about Ce'Nedra and Garion. One is gonna live for a
> >while, the other won't. I finally decide that once Ce'Nedra dies, Garion
> >will move to the Vale and build his own tower. But what about his son?
> >Will Geran be a sorceror as well? I think I'm correct in assuming that
> >Garion is the only sorceror in his blood line after Belgarath and
> >Polgara, and he's only one because he was the one who had to go fight
> >Torak, as the Child Of Light. Hmmm...
>
> was somewhere else. But it's a bit confusing, then, that Garion's father
> (whom we must assume also had the mark, it is hereditary) wasn't one, if it's
> a sorcerer's mark. Perhaps Garion's was different, but that was never
> explained.
>
> Bethant
In 'Belgarath the Sorcerer' it explains that all of the Rivan descendents
have the 'talent'. Some had it mor than others. That's why Polgara and
Belgarath didn't tell them the whole story while they were hidden. They
were afraid that one of the kids would go off half-cocked as a
quasi-sorcerer.
Cassie
Martel
Michael Rollins
>> jason...@lunatic.com (Jason Tamez) wrote:
>Quothe the Raven, "Nevermore!"; Quothe Lisa M. Disalvo:
>LM> Buddy Cook (bud...@teleport.com) wrote:
>LM>
>LM> : >>If I recall properly, Garion's mark on his hand was supposed to
be his >LM> : >>sorcerer's mark, just as Polgara's was her white lock of
hair and Belga >LM> : >was somewhere else. But it's a bit confusing,
then, = >LM> : >that Garion's father (whom we must assume also had the
mark, it is hered >LM> : >wasn't one, if it's a sorcerer's mark.
Perhaps Gario= >LM> : >n's was different, but that was never explained.
>LM> : >>
>LM> : >>Bethany
>LM>
>LM> : >No. The mark on Garion's palm was the mark of the Rivan throne.
His fath >LM> : >DID have the mark as well, but obviously he wasn't a
Sorcerer, just a >LM> : >simple stone mason (if I remember correctly).
I'm not entierly(sp?) sure >LM> : >Garion had a Sorcerer's mark...The
more I think about it, the less I'm >LM> : >sure you were supposed to
have a "mark" just for being a Sorcerer. >LM> : >Polgara's mark was put
there by Belgarath the first time he touched her; >LM> : >this was an
isolated case. Perhaps this event had something to do with >LM> : >Pol's
eventual grasp of the Will and the Word, but I'm almost certain th >LM>
: >mark in her hair, and the fact she's a Sorceress, aren't
synonomous(sp?) >LM> : >In fact, I don't recall any of the others having
marks at all, aside fro >LM> : >the "Bel" of course. >LM> : >Just a
thought... >LM>
>LM> : Polgara did get her mark when Belgarath touched her the first
time, but i >LM> : said he was worried about it because it was the mark
of a sorcerer and th >LM> : hadn't been any female ones (I think that's
what it said- what about Pold >LM> : Garion and Belgarath had some
discussion about it once- at least I though >LM> : I can't prove it
because I don't remember which book. I thought Belgara >LM> : said that
he had a mark somewhere, and that Garion's mark on his hand was >LM> :
To quote 'Belgarath the Scorcerer', page 487, paragraph 7.
"Garel and his mother didn't really know too much about
their real situation, and Pol and I ddecided that it might be best
to leave it that way. The heirs to Iron-grip's throne have all
been what we've come to call "talented" - some more, some
less - and it's a little dangerous to have a novice scorcerer in
possesion of too much information. Garion, who's far more
than marginally talented, probably will remember any number
of times while he was growing up on Faldor's farm when either
Pol or I skillfully sidestepped his questions. The decision
to do it that way was Pol's, of course, but after I thought about
it for a bit, I wholeheartedly approved. It headed off all sorts
of unpleasant possibilities."
So you see, there is a reason that they all had that mark on
the palm of one of their hands, and it was not because they
touched the Orb.
!^NavFont02F0E9A0011RRB54BSECRSEFHU9CC290
!N2
--
Michael Rollins (krol...@vianet.on.ca)
When a true genius appears in this world you shal know him by this, that all the dunces in the world will rise up in confederacy against him.
Johnathan Swift (1667-1745)
Michael Slade
Michael Rollins wrote:
[ previous discussion deleted]
>
> So you see, there is a reason that they all had that mark on
> the palm of one of their hands, and it was not because they
> touched the Orb.
The mark first appeared on Riva's hand when he touched the Orb, and one male in
each successive generation has worn the mark.
As discussed in BtS, all of the Rivan heirs have indeed had the talent, just
never developing it until Belgarion.
I think this mark is both the mark of the Rivan heir (showing his connection to
the Orb), and the sorceror's mark.
Just my 2c.
Michael.
--
Michael Slade
mcs...@acmis.mat.army.defence.gov.au