Pronuciation of trolls names.
Pasha
through gibberesh at each other. The we just tried to find weird words to
pipe through the gibberesh filter, and one of them picked up my copy of
tHC, looked through, and decided that he should try and put Bhlokw
through. An argument then insued about who it was pronounced, and how
many syllabes there were. I say that it is pronounced bloque, and there
are 5 other strange pronunceations. Please help, I'll do anything, even
write the rest of chapter 4 ;-)
TTFN, TIA
-Pasha
GM, root, god. No differences there.
traviiATarmory.com not anti-spam in reply
Achird
>Bhlokw
>I say that it is pronounced bloque, and there
>are 5 other strange pronunceations.
If I really should try to pronounciate it seriousely, it will be
"Bh-L-O-K-W". Bh is bilabial V, and W is then pronounced as in Welsh
(similar to oo in "school" I think).
Achird
(achird at hem1 dot passagen dot se)
--
"You are a very strange man."
AFE dg++>- ka++ d+ m- ot++ b->+ tq++ i- c l- afec+>++ a? f-- fsB
Ghnomb
<achi...@hem2.passagen.se> wrote:
>>I say that it is pronounced bloque, and there
>>are 5 other strange pronunceations.
>If I really should try to pronounciate it seriousely, it will be
>"Bh-L-O-K-W". Bh is bilabial V, and W is then pronounced as in Welsh
>(similar to oo in "school" I think).
Usually I'm quite free on pronunciation variations. On trollick words,
however, the Trollick Orthodox Church has ruled infallibly:
1) Trollick words are from a foreign language. They do not have
Elenic/English equivalents, since this name at least has never been
heard before. Troll god names could also not have appeared in print,
since printing is controlled by the Elene Church, which does not allow
speculation concerning their existence.
2) The word cannot have been transliterated into English/Elenic, since
there is no Trollick alphabet. Therefore the English/Elenic spelling
is not an unphonetic Trollick spelling transfered.
3) Therefore the Elenic/English word must have been written solely
based on the pronunciation of the Trollick.
4) On our world at least, such direct transcriptions are written in
the receiver language as simply as possible, ie no frills attached. I
am assuming this to be the case.
5) Therefore, Bhlokw et al are pronounced exactly as they are written,
not dragging Welsh phonetic rules in at all :P
So, just pronounce all the letters as fast as you can. Try not to spit
on your keyboard.
So, in the phonetic alphabet, by name is pronounced:
<ghnomb> (though with a little stick on the right hand side of the o)
ie exactly as it is written.
Though I like it if the h is strengthened a bit, to a kh sound :)
And if Hettar mentions "Gnob" or anything like that, I'll Eat him.
Ghnomb the silent-letterless
B.H.H "Q" Mulder
>
> On Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:20:51 +0100, "Achird"
> <achi...@hem2.passagen.se> wrote:
>
> >>I say that it is pronounced bloque, and there
> >>are 5 other strange pronunceations.
> >If I really should try to pronounciate it seriousely, it will be
> >"Bh-L-O-K-W". Bh is bilabial V, and W is then pronounced as in Welsh
> >(similar to oo in "school" I think).
>
> <ghnomb> (though with a little stick on the right hand side of the o)
> ie exactly as it is written.
> Though I like it if the h is strengthened a bit, to a kh sound :)
Just act if you are smacking (during eating) and you'll get the right
sound.
(munch, ghomb, gubble)
>
> And if Hettar mentions "Gnob" or anything like that, I'll Eat him.
>
Use salt and ketchup with him (tastes better). ;)
Q
(who bought the Rivan Codex on Friday, and, though his weekend was
filled
of work and study, and (a misserable, failed) performance with the local
fanfare,
finished reading it on sunday).
(Hehheheh) :)
--
AFE m> ot++>++ b->- tq- i- c- l-- afec! a? f fsBM>BM
Gundred
"B.H.H \"Q\" Mulder" <s095...@let.rug.nl> wrote:
> Ghnomb wrote:
> > And if Hettar mentions "Gnob" or anything like that, I'll Eat him.
> >
>
> Use salt and ketchup with him (tastes better). ;)
Hmmm... Maybe I have to start working on another a.f.e. cookbook...
Gundred
------------------
Out of my mind. Back in five minutes.
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Teut
k.big.nasty.trolls> writes
>And if Hettar mentions "Gnob" or anything like that, I'll Eat him.
Hey! That's *my* joke!
]:=8)
--
Teut, Draconic Defender of the Alias Scrolls.
AFE dg+ ka+ d+ m++ ot+>- b- tq- i+ c l>+ afec++ a? f++ fsBM
Aaron J. Dinkin
<Pine.SCO.3.96.99020...@deepthought.armory.com>, Pasha
<tra...@Kipshouse.org> wrote:
> My freinds and I were having fun speaking different languages piped
> through gibberesh at each other. The we just tried to find weird words to
> pipe through the gibberesh filter, and one of them picked up my copy of
> tHC, looked through, and decided that he should try and put Bhlokw
> through. An argument then insued about who it was pronounced, and how
> many syllabes there were. I say that it is pronounced bloque, and there
> are 5 other strange pronunceations. Please help, I'll do anything, even
> write the rest of chapter 4 ;-)
Since Eddings obviously based Trollish words on proto-Indo-European
reconstructed roots (*"bhel-", as in "Bhelliom", is PIE for 'bloom';
*"ghwer-", as in "Ghwerig", is PIE for 'wild beast'; other names are just
made up in the PIE style), pronounce it the way PIE has pronunciation has
been reconstructed.
It's got four phonemes: the first, "bh", is pronounced as "b" with a heavy
puff of breath after it. (Try saying English "plot". You'll hear a puff
after the "p". Now try changing the "p" to "b" without losing the puff of
air - it's not as easy as it sounds.) If you can't manage that, use "v", I
guess. "L" is just "l". "O" should be about like in "port". To say the last
phoneme, say "k" with your lips rounded.
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Achird
>Since Eddings obviously based Trollish words on proto-Indo-European
>reconstructed roots (*"bhel-", as in "Bhelliom", is PIE for 'bloom';
>*"ghwer-", as in "Ghwerig", is PIE for 'wild beast'; other names are just
>made up in the PIE style), pronounce it the way PIE has pronunciation has
>been reconstructed.
>It's got four phonemes: the first, "bh", is pronounced as "b" with a
heavy
>puff of breath after it. (Try saying English "plot". You'll hear a puff
>after the "p". Now try changing the "p" to "b" without losing the puff of
>air - it's not as easy as it sounds.) If you can't manage that, use "v",
I
>guess. "L" is just "l". "O" should be about like in "port". To say the
last
>phoneme, say "k" with your lips rounded.
Thank you Aaron! That was really interesting to hear!
And it explains why the name Bhelliom seems to fit so good.
I hope someone put this into the etymologic section of the FAQ.
Ce'Nedra
<din...@fas.harvard.edu> say:
>Since Eddings obviously based Trollish words on proto-Indo-European
>reconstructed roots (*"bhel-", as in "Bhelliom",
But surely Bhelliom isn't a trollish word? Bhelliom is the name of the
creator spirit, Ghwerig called the sapphire it was enclosed in "Blue
Rose", which you can certainly pronounce in a European way. :)
(pause)
Okay, I've just had a quick flick through the Elenium, and Ghwerig
certainly refers to it as both Bhelliom and Blue Rose. I'd still argue
though that the spirit had this name before it became trapped in the
planet, or before Ghwerig dug it up.....
--
Ce'Nedra - Queen of the World, Guardian of AFE
In general men have relationships with women in order to have sex,
whereas women have sex with men in order to have relationships.
MR M R J CARPENTER
> Ce'Nedra touched her fingers to her amulet, and heard Aaron J. Dinkin
> <din...@fas.harvard.edu> say:
> >Since Eddings obviously based Trollish words on proto-Indo-European
> >reconstructed roots (*"bhel-", as in "Bhelliom",
>
> But surely Bhelliom isn't a trollish word? Bhelliom is the name of the
> creator spirit, Ghwerig called the sapphire it was enclosed in "Blue
> Rose", which you can certainly pronounce in a European way. :)
>
Bhelliom presumably has to be a word in some El/Tam language or close to
one :)
>
> (pause)
> Okay, I've just had a quick flick through the Elenium, and Ghwerig
> certainly refers to it as both Bhelliom and Blue Rose. I'd still argue
> though that the spirit had this name before it became trapped in the
> planet, or before Ghwerig dug it up.....
>
I don't think Bhelliom makes a habit of being stuck on planets with life
forms on so there would only really be Klael&other world spirits to name
it. And world spirits probably don't bother talking to each other having
no doubt many other means of communication.
And if it did get stuck on a planet before/afterwards this time then the
people there might have a completly different form of communication to the
people on the El/Tam world. I think it probably arranged to be
called Bhelliom because it sounded nice to it or something :) (Maybe
closest aprroximation in this communication mode to what Klael calls
it?!)
--
*****
*maujv*_@ csv.warwick.ac.uk/highroans.demon.co.uk
*******./ Vard, head of abstract deamonology and pure maths department,
" " University of Kell.
Kamion
> On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Ce'Nedra wrote:
>
> > Okay, I've just had a quick flick through the Elenium, and Ghwerig
> > certainly refers to it as both Bhelliom and Blue Rose. I'd still argue
> > though that the spirit had this name before it became trapped in the
> > planet, or before Ghwerig dug it up.....
>
> I don't think Bhelliom makes a habit of being stuck on planets with life
> forms on so there would only really be Klael&other world spirits to name
> it. And world spirits probably don't bother talking to each other having
> no doubt many other means of communication.
Isn't there a passage near the beginning of tHC where Bhelliom says
something like "We do not speak of some 'he' or 'it'. We speak of Klæl"?
(Apologies for any misquoting.)
Note the "we" there ...
Kamion
--
http://thor.cam.ac.uk/~cjw44/eddings/
"Racism is generally the last refuge of the unimportant."
MR M R J CARPENTER
> The Citadel resounded to the voice of Vard:
>
> > On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Ce'Nedra wrote:
> >
> > > Okay, I've just had a quick flick through the Elenium, and Ghwerig
> > > certainly refers to it as both Bhelliom and Blue Rose. I'd still argue
> > > though that the spirit had this name before it became trapped in the
> > > planet, or before Ghwerig dug it up.....
> >
> > I don't think Bhelliom makes a habit of being stuck on planets with life
> > forms on so there would only really be Klael&other world spirits to name
> > it. And world spirits probably don't bother talking to each other having
> > no doubt many other means of communication.
>
> Isn't there a passage near the beginning of tHC where Bhelliom says
> something like "We do not speak of some 'he' or 'it'. We speak of Klæl"?
> (Apologies for any misquoting.)
>
> Note the "we" there ...
>
I suppose that does mean that the world spirits communicate. Unless B's
talking about the rest of the party talking about Klael?(Impossible to
tell(no book :))) So they probably have got something approaching names in
whatever passes for speech between them. B would use Klael to refer to
Klael here as that is presumably what the elder gods called him.
But that probably isn't normally styric or whatever :) And indeed in space
verbal communication might prove tricky.... But they're quite powerfull
enough to do telepathic speech between themselves. And if they communicate
like that there needn't be any simple form of translation between the
languages.
I suppose it would be nice to know if the spirits just let people name
them or actually choose names to make everyone call them instead :) I
guess it doesn't happen very often....
Aiken
> Isn't there a passage near the beginning of tHC where Bhelliom says
> something like "We do not speak of some 'he' or 'it'. We speak of Klæl"?
> (Apologies for any misquoting.)
Even for saying Bhelliom instead of Aphrael? She'll get you for that
one, Kam!! :O)
Aik
--
And his hat was made of scrambled eggs and his name was Aiken Drum.
http://surf.to/a-edwards (but it's not too healthy just now...)
AFE dg+>++ ka+>++ d+>+ m> ot+>++ b+>++ tq- i+ c+>- l++ afec+ a? f++>+
fsBM>ET
Ce'Nedra
CARPENTER <MA...@csv.warwick.ac.uk> say:
>> But surely Bhelliom isn't a trollish word? Bhelliom is the name of the
>> creator spirit, Ghwerig called the sapphire it was enclosed in "Blue
>> Rose", which you can certainly pronounce in a European way. :)
>>
>Bhelliom presumably has to be a word in some El/Tam language or close to
>one :)
I'd disagree. I'd say Bhelliom was named Bhelliom long before there was
even a El/Tam world, never mind a language.
>I don't think Bhelliom makes a habit of being stuck on planets with life
>forms on
Agreed. Don't think it'll do *that* again.
>so there would only really be Klael&other world spirits to name
>it. And world spirits probably don't bother talking to each other having
>no doubt many other means of communication.
They must communicate, otherwise how would Bhelliom know Klael was
Klael?
shadow
<Ce'Ne...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk> writes
>Ce'Nedra touched her fingers to her amulet, and heard MR M R J
>CARPENTER <MA...@csv.warwick.ac.uk> say:
>
>Klael?
>
opposite. All he has to do to know how Klael is being refferred to is
listen in on the younger or elder gods %)
Agent blue-Judean Smiley's front....
:):):):) :):):):) %) :):):):)
:):):):) :):):):) :):):):)
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Ce'Nedra
<sha...@highroans.demon.co.uk> say:
> Surely he has an instinctive awareness of Klael as his natural
>opposite.
One of them anyway. It's implied that there are more creator spirits
than just those two. There has to be some way to differentiate between
them all.
> All he has to do to know how Klael is being refferred to is
>listen in on the younger or elder gods %)
But that only works for the short time that the god's have existed in
Bhelliom and Klaels lifetime. There was *lots* of time before the El/Tam
world was made, and the gods only appeared in it after it's creation....
Kamion
> Kamion wrote:
> > Isn't there a passage near the beginning of tHC where Bhelliom says
> > something like "We do not speak of some 'he' or 'it'. We speak of Klæl"?
> > (Apologies for any misquoting.)
>
> Even for saying Bhelliom instead of Aphrael? She'll get you for that
> one, Kam!! :O)
Really? I could've sworn I remembered archaic phrasing, even if I did get
the quote a bit wrong ...
Aaron J. Dinkin
<achi...@hem2.passagen.se> wrote:
> Aaron J. Dinkin wrote:
> >Since Eddings obviously based Trollish words on proto-Indo-European
> >reconstructed roots (*"bhel-", as in "Bhelliom", is PIE for 'bloom';
> >*"ghwer-", as in "Ghwerig", is PIE for 'wild beast'; other names are just
> >made up in the PIE style), pronounce it the way PIE has pronunciation has
> >been reconstructed.
> [Bhlokw]
> >It's got four phonemes: the first, "bh", is pronounced as "b" with a
> >heavy puff of breath after it. (Try saying English "plot". You'll hear a puff
> >after the "p". Now try changing the "p" to "b" without losing the puff of
> >air - it's not as easy as it sounds.) If you can't manage that, use "v",
> >I guess. "L" is just "l". "O" should be about like in "port". To say the
> >last phoneme, say "k" with your lips rounded.
>
> Thank you Aaron! That was really interesting to hear!
My pleasure, really. I love getting the opportunity to talk about
linguistics in some other forum.
Aaron J. Dinkin
<Ce'Ne...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Ce'Nedra touched her fingers to her amulet, and heard Aaron J. Dinkin
> <din...@fas.harvard.edu> say:
> >Since Eddings obviously based Trollish words on proto-Indo-European
> >reconstructed roots (*"bhel-", as in "Bhelliom",
>
> But surely Bhelliom isn't a trollish word? Bhelliom is the name of the
> creator spirit, Ghwerig called the sapphire it was enclosed in "Blue
> Rose", which you can certainly pronounce in a European way. :)
>
> (pause)
> Okay, I've just had a quick flick through the Elenium, and Ghwerig
> certainly refers to it as both Bhelliom and Blue Rose. I'd still argue
> though that the spirit had this name before it became trapped in the
> planet, or before Ghwerig dug it up.....
Really? I could have sworn that I remembered from the prologue to _Diamond
Throne_ that it was Ghwerig that named it Bhelliom. But whatever - it's
still clearly based on the PIE root.
Aquarius
>They must communicate, otherwise how would Bhelliom know Klael was
>Klael?
Ooh, some sort of "racial memory"? I admit that the concept doesn't
really apply to Bhelliom, not being of a race, but they don't
necessarily have to have communicated.
They have, though :-) "Bhelliom and Klael are brothers; Klael can feel
Bhelliom right through the gold", so they are at the very least aware
of one another's presence...
Aq.
aqua...@kryogenix.albatross.co.uk
http://www.kryogenix.albatross.co.uk/afe/
Hosting the AFE Knowledge Repository and the AFE
fan-fic archives at the above URL
AFE dg++ ka++>+++ d+> m+>++ ot+>--- b++ tq+>++
i++ c- l++ afec++ a? f++ fsB>N
Aquarius
>Bhelliom and Klaels lifetime. There was *lots* of time before the El/Tam
>world was made, and the gods only appeared in it after it's creation....
Do we actually know this?
Aph and the other Younger Gods wished themselves into existence to
deny the Elder Gods possession of Bhelliom -- it's reasonable to
postulate that they adopted the Styrics pretty quickly after this, and
so it was after the creation of the El/Tam world, but what about the
Elder Gods? I don't think that there's any indication of when they
were created, afaicr -- they might have existed since the beginning of
the universe....
Achird
>"Achird" wrote:
>> Thank you Aaron! That was really interesting to hear!
>
>My pleasure, really. I love getting the opportunity to talk about
>linguistics in some other forum.
I just used dejanews Power Seach and realised that you had posted some
more interesting linguistic posts here to AFE. But those posts have sadly
never occured on my newsserver.
Achird
a.k.a. Gunnar Creutz,
Kamion
Yes:
"When at last the carving was done, the gem was in the shape of a rose of
deepest sapphire blue. And he named it Bhelliom, the flower-gem, and he
believed that by its might all things might be possible for him."
(tDT, UK pb, Prologue, p. 10)
The word "flower-gem" only confirms what you said about "Bhel-" meaning
"bloom" ...
Gundred
"Achird" <achi...@hem2.passagen.se> wrote:
> Aaron J. Dinkin wrote:
> >"Achird" wrote:
> >> Thank you Aaron! That was really interesting to hear!
> >
> >My pleasure, really. I love getting the opportunity to talk about
> >linguistics in some other forum.
>
> I just used dejanews Power Seach and realised that you had posted some
> more interesting linguistic posts here to AFE. But those posts have sadly
> never occured on my newsserver.
For some reason we always seem to go back to discussing languages.
Time for alt.fan.eddings.languages ?
Aiken
>
> The Citadel resounded to the voice of Aiken:
>
> > Kamion wrote:
> > > Isn't there a passage near the beginning of tHC where Bhelliom says
> > > something like "We do not speak of some 'he' or 'it'. We speak of Klæl"?
> > > (Apologies for any misquoting.)
> >
> > Even for saying Bhelliom instead of Aphrael? She'll get you for that
> > one, Kam!! :O)
>
> Really? I could've sworn I remembered archaic phrasing, even if I did get
> the quote a bit wrong ...
>
Understandable lapse, really. Aphrael tells Talen that Klael is an 'it'
and then Bhelliom - via Vanion - explains to the knights who Klael is
and adds the bit about Cyrgon being eventually overcome.[1]
Aik
Spell Cheque (for Hettar) foible No. 327 - Cyrgon => Cryogen :O)
Ch.1 - pg 18 in my copy. :O)
Kamion
> Kamion wrote:
> >
> > The Citadel resounded to the voice of Aiken:
> >
> > > Kamion wrote:
> > > > Isn't there a passage near the beginning of tHC where Bhelliom says
> > > > something like "We do not speak of some 'he' or 'it'. We speak of Klæl"?
> > > > (Apologies for any misquoting.)
> > >
> > > Even for saying Bhelliom instead of Aphrael? She'll get you for that
> > > one, Kam!! :O)
> >
> > Really? I could've sworn I remembered archaic phrasing, even if I did get
> > the quote a bit wrong ...
>
> Understandable lapse, really. Aphrael tells Talen that Klael is an 'it'
> and then Bhelliom - via Vanion - explains to the knights who Klael is
> and adds the bit about Cyrgon being eventually overcome.[1]
[...]
> Ch.1 - pg 18 in my copy. :O)
One trip to the bookshop to confirm my suspicions later, and we're talking
about different passages. I'm referring to the bit a couple of pages on:
Sparhawk: "Can he - or it - be destroyed?"
Bhelliom: "It is not 'he' of which we speak, nor do we speak of some 'it'.
We speak of Klæl."
(tHC, UK pb, Chapter 1, p. 35)
So there. :P
Kamion
--
http://thor.cam.ac.uk/~cjw44/eddings/
"*BEEP* Troll Detected. Killfile, Ignore, Flame?"
Cho-Hag
Pasha wrote:
> ...and decided that he should try and put Bhlokw
> through.
Just a side remark... for anyone who plays Starcraft, one of the sounds
made by the Zerg Guardian sounds suspiciously like "Bhlokw"...
--
- c h....AFE dg++ ka+ d+ m- ot+ b- tq+ i c- l- afec! a++ f++ fsB
'That's one for her side,' King Cho-Hag said quietly.
'Were we keeping score?' Garion asked mildly.
'It helps us to keep track, sort of,' the Chief of the
Clan-Chiefs of Algaria answered with a straight face.
Achird
>For some reason we always seem to go back to discussing languages.
>Time for alt.fan.eddings.languages ?
Well, that's maybe a good idea!
Achird
shadow
<Ce'Ne...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk> writes
>> Surely he has an instinctive awareness of Klael as his natural
>>opposite.
>
>One of them anyway. It's implied that there are more creator spirits
>than just those two. There has to be some way to differentiate between
>them all.
>
>> All he has to do to know how Klael is being refferred to is
>>listen in on the younger or elder gods %)
>Bhelliom and Klaels lifetime. There was *lots* of time before the El/Tam
>world was made, and the gods only appeared in it after it's creation....
Klael on El/Tam. ANd while on that world, it makes sense to use the
labels already in place, ie. speak the native's language.
Aiken
>
> Pasha wrote:
> > ...and decided that he should try and put Bhlokw
> > through.
>
> Just a side remark... for anyone who plays Starcraft, one of the sounds
> made by the Zerg Guardian sounds suspiciously like "Bhlokw"...
And I'd imagine almost _all_ the troll dictionary (lexicon?) is run
through in Tubular Bells at some point or another... :O)
Aik