Malloreon vs Belgariad.
Invid fan
Hi all. I'm new to this group, so forgive me if this has all been
discussed before. Hey, it's better than another sexist thread!
Years ago I read the Belgariad. It was a great series, with an imaginative
use of prophesy and magic. By the last book I didn't want it to end.
Eddings could write about the characters doing nothing for the rest of
thier lives and I would have loved it. Thus when the Malloreon came out, I
couldn't wait to re-visit all my old friends.
Then I came to the excuse.
You see, the first series comes to a definit end with regard to the battle
between the two opposing prophesy's. Acording to the Belgariad, long ago
something went wrong, causing two opposit but equal prophesy's to come
into existance where one had been before. Garion imagines it to be like
the time he threw a rock, and it hit a branch and broke a window. The
voice in his head likes the analogy, and asks him to imagine someone
throwing another rock at the first, striking it so as to knock it back on
course. Garion is the second rock. Everything in the 'good' prophesy has
been for the purpouse of getting the child of light, Garion, to his
meeting with the child of dark, Torak, who is following the 'bad'
prophesy. Each prophesy is equaly valid. After the meeting only one
prophesy will be left and the universe will continue on following it.
Nobody knows the outcome of the meeting, as, if it was pre-ordained, they
wouldn't have to have it.
This is all shot to hell in the Malloreon.
Here, we're told that the last meeting wasn't enough. That there have been
many meetings of the children of light and dark, and dark always lost.
That Torak's defeat was mentioned in the 'bad' prophesy.
In short, it made the original meaningless.
This has bugged the hell out of me for years. What are some of the
reasons/theorys behind all this, besides bad writing? :-)
--
"Say, Rose? Do you believe in Magic?" ! Chris Mack
"Not really, no. But that's NOT what you're asking me." ! 'Invid fan'
"It's not?" !
"Nope. What you're asking me is, do I believe in weird !
shit? And the answer is yes. Of course I do. I'd be !
crazy not to. I've had a weird shit life." _______!
- Rose and Carla, THE SANDMAN: THE KINDLY ONES ! In...@localnet.com
E. Shuford
I wouldn't say that bad writing is the reason for this. It just
seems apparent that when he started the Belgariad, DE wasn't planning on
writing a second series. Perhaps that he decided to go with another series
when he discovered Belgariad's success? Who knows?
I also don't agree with your assessment. I find nothing wrong with
the second series. In fact, DE came up with a pretty good excuse to write
a second series with all this Torak-is-only-a-tool crap.
(Something I do think is bad writing is just when Belgarion, Silk,
and Belgarath left, like, months before Polgara and Co. before getting to
Torak, and Polgara STILL arrived first! I know that's how the prophecy
forsaw all this. Maybe DE should've come up with a better way to get
Polgara to Torak ahead of the others...)
-Nathan
Dave Whiteman
In the dim and distant past on Fri, 3 May 1996 20:44:21 -0700, "E.
Shuford" <e...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
That's because they were going slowly in order to give time for
Polgara to organise the diversion and to get to Cthol Mishrak!
Also Polgara travelled by boat which is faster than horse back
-- <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>
What a tangled web we weave
When those we love we first deceive
<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>
Amergyn
On Fri, 3 May 1996 20:44:21 -0700, "E. Shuford" <e...@u.washington.edu>
wrote:
>
>
> I wouldn't say that bad writing is the reason for this. It just
>seems apparent that when he started the Belgariad, DE wasn't planning on
>writing a second series. Perhaps that he decided to go with another series
>when he discovered Belgariad's success? Who knows?
> I also don't agree with your assessment. I find nothing wrong with
>the second series. In fact, DE came up with a pretty good excuse to write
>a second series with all this Torak-is-only-a-tool crap.
> (Something I do think is bad writing is just when Belgarion, Silk,
>and Belgarath left, like, months before Polgara and Co. before getting to
>Torak, and Polgara STILL arrived first! I know that's how the prophecy
>forsaw all this. Maybe DE should've come up with a better way to get
>Polgara to Torak ahead of the others...)
>
> -Nathan
>
>
On this, I have to agree, DE has made many changes to his basic
premises since beginning the Belgariad. Through the first books of
the Belgariad, Belgarath is seen as being unsure of who the
"companions" are, but in _Belgarath the Sorceror_, he says that he
arranged them so to speak via a few centuries worth of arranged
marriages. _Belgarath..._ does clear up some lingering questions, but
it also creates many new ones. One of the other large ones is
Belgarath being surprised by the prophecy speaking to Garion at the
end of _Queen of Sorcery_, but in _Belgarath..._ the prophecy speaks
to him very early on, when Belgarath himself is the child of light in
a confrontation with Zedar.
As I understood it, the Mallorean was written in response to pressure
from DE's publisher, who wanted to follow up the success of the
Belgariad. Anyone else have info on this?
Bill Longley
da...@casson.demon.co.uk (Dave Whiteman) wrote:
>In the dim and distant past on Fri, 3 May 1996 20:44:21 -0700, "E.
>Shuford" <e...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I wouldn't say that bad writing is the reason for this. It just
>>seems apparent that when he started the Belgariad, DE wasn't planning on
>>writing a second series. Perhaps that he decided to go with another series
>>when he discovered Belgariad's success? Who knows?
>> I also don't agree with your assessment. I find nothing wrong with
>>the second series. In fact, DE came up with a pretty good excuse to write
>>a second series with all this Torak-is-only-a-tool crap.
>> (Something I do think is bad writing is just when Belgarion, Silk,
>>and Belgarath left, like, months before Polgara and Co. before getting to
>>Torak, and Polgara STILL arrived first! I know that's how the prophecy
>>forsaw all this. Maybe DE should've come up with a better way to get
>>Polgara to Torak ahead of the others...)
>hat's ecause they were going slowly in order to give time for>Polgara to organise the diversion and to get to Cthol Mishrak!
>Also Polgara travelled by boat which is faster than horse back
>-- <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>
> What a tangled web we weave
> When those we love we first deceive
><>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>
Garion, silk etc had to avoid all the armies of Mallorea, Polgara etc
had an armed escort!
Giles Alexander
I personally think that the Malloreon was better than the Belgariad.
The Belgariad was sort of superficial, there was no real depth to the characters (like the Malloreon) and the background was explained as detailed. You never find to a great depth who the dry voice and you never really hear about why there is this divided destiny.
The Malloreon explains things in great detail, and you really hear a lot about the characters.
It just seemed to me to have more depth.
Regards,
Giles Alexander
Amy I. Sheldon
In a previous article, da...@casson.demon.co.uk (Dave Whiteman) says:
In the dim and distant past on Fri, 3 May 1996 20:44:21 -0700, "E.
Shuford" <e...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
> I wouldn't say that bad writing is the reason for this. It just
>seems apparent that when he started the Belgariad, DE wasn't planning on
>writing a second series. Perhaps that he decided to go with another series
>when he discovered Belgariad's success? Who knows?
Now THIS I forced to disagree with. I don't think that the Malloreon
was what DE originally had in mind as a second series, but there are
a couple of real strong indications in the Belgariad that he was
planning some type of sequel. My two favorites are the following:
1) Errand
Come on now, is there ANYONE who read the Belgariad who didn't
feel that DE left some *major* plot threads dangling off of this
character?
2) The apostrophe in front of 'Zakath
This is a very minor point, but it always struck me as a good
indicator that DE had every intention of returning to the world
of the Belgariad. 'Zakath is a fairly minor character in the
Belgariad. He's referred to, and he appears briefly, but we
really don't learn much about him. Yet the spelling of his name
is deliberatly given as _'_Zakath. There aren't any other
characters with that little apostrophe in front of their name.
Nowhere in the Belgariad is any explanation given for this.
It isn't until the Malloreon that we find out the reason
for it, and it is a reason that didn't have any bearing on
anything until after Torak's death. In other words, DE went
took the trouble of setting up the name with an apostrophe
(and insisting that it be typeset that way), even though it
had no relevence to the story he was telling _at that time_.
That indicates to me that he planned at a fairly early point
within the writing of the Belgariad to return with another
story using the character.
Personally, I've always thought that DE's original idea for a
sequel was a kind of "Next Generation" thing, since he so
carefully set up kids for most of the main characters. Is there
anyone else besides me that thinks that Unrak (Barak's son)
was originally slated to have a much bigger role in the
Malloreon than he ended up getting?) I think he only went with
the "let's rewrite the Belgariad" plot after the Belgariad came
out and proved to be so incredibly popular.
Of course, this is all speculation, but one of these days I'm
going to write to Eddings and ask (and the sun will rise in
the west, and I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I'd love to
sell....)
eclipse
>In the dim and distant past on Fri, 3 May 1996 20:44:21 -0700, "E.
>Shuford" <e...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>
>> I wouldn't say that bad writing is the reason for this. It just
>>seems apparent that when he started the Belgariad, DE wasn't planning on
>>writing a second series. Perhaps that he decided to go with another series
>>when he discovered Belgariad's success? Who knows?
>ai...@po.CWRU.Edu (Amy I. Sheldon) wrote:
>Now THIS I forced to disagree with. I don't think that the Malloreon
>was what DE originally had in mind as a second series, but there are
>a couple of real strong indications in the Belgariad that he was
>planning some type of sequel. My two favorites are the following:
>1) Errand
>2) The apostrophe in front of 'Zakath
Yes, I think that by the end of the Belgariad, there are many indications
that there was going to be a sequel of some sort. Errand is the classic
example. Also, I think there was a lot left unanswered about Poledra. Her
presence at Polgara's wedding left many threads..
Also certain strong characters such as Beldin and Porenn faded out towards
the end, which, in some ways didn't make Enchanters' Endgame feel like the
complete end of the story.
I can't remember now if Urvon was mentioned in the Belgariad, but there are
many mentioned characters like him that do not appear which seemed to set
up the Malloreon.
I hadn't thought about 'Zakath's apostrophe before, to be honest.
However, Nathan's earlier point that it seems apparent that when Eddings
*started* the Belgariad he wasn't planning a second series, I'm not sure
about. He may have only decided on The Malloreon half-way through writing
The Belgariad after creating characters like Beldin and Sadi and, rather
than quickly introducing them to the action, deciding to develop their
characters in a second series. If Eddings' had planned a second series
right from the beginning, I think his original concept of it was different
to how the Malloreon turned out. The whole thing about Torak being a tool
or a mistake, I find unconvincing.
>Personally, I've always thought that DE's original idea for a
>sequel was a kind of "Next Generation" thing, since he so
>carefully set up kids for most of the main characters. Is there
>anyone else besides me that thinks that Unrak (Barak's son)
>was originally slated to have a much bigger role in the
>Malloreon than he ended up getting?) I think he only went with
>the "let's rewrite the Belgariad" plot after the Belgariad came
>out and proved to be so incredibly popular.
Yes, Unrak did seem to me to be destined for a bigger role in the
Malloreon, esp. as Barak wasn't in the company.
After the success of the Belgariad, it does seem that since then he has
been happy to stick to the same safe formula, and while it did look at one
point that he was setting up a "next generation" thing for the second
series, keeping popular characters such as Silk, Polgara and Garion in
would ensure success, and probably be too tempting to leave out or play
down.
eclipse.
--
"Beautiful souls, be happy, be one.
Behold, your heaven has now begun."
Lord Jeff
Disregarding the storm warnings, eclipse wrote:
> >In the dim and distant past on Fri, 3 May 1996 20:44:21 -0700, "E.
> >Shuford" <e...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >> I wouldn't say that bad writing is the reason for this. It just
> >>seems apparent that when he started the Belgariad, DE wasn't planning on
> >>writing a second series. Perhaps that he decided to go with another series
> >>when he discovered Belgariad's success? Who knows?
> >ai...@po.CWRU.Edu (Amy I. Sheldon) wrote:
> >Now THIS I forced to disagree with. I don't think that the Malloreon
> >was what DE originally had in mind as a second series, but there are
> >a couple of real strong indications in the Belgariad that he was
> >planning some type of sequel. My two favorites are the following:
> >1) Errand
> >2) The apostrophe in front of 'Zakath
I agree with the original poster quoted in thinking that Eddings probably
didn't decide to do the Malloreon until *after* he had finished the Belgariad.
Remember, Eddings wrote the Belgariad in order to settle some philosophical
questions about how fantasy ought to be written. That's not why he wrote the
Malloreon, though. Obviously he had a change of interest at some point.
> Yes, I think that by the end of the Belgariad, there are many indications
> that there was going to be a sequel of some sort. Errand is the classic
> example. Also, I think there was a lot left unanswered about Poledra. Her
> presence at Polgara's wedding left many threads..
> Also certain strong characters such as Beldin and Porenn faded out towards
> the end, which, in some ways didn't make Enchanters' Endgame feel like the
> complete end of the story.
> I can't remember now if Urvon was mentioned in the Belgariad, but there are
> many mentioned characters like him that do not appear which seemed to set
> up the Malloreon.
This may seem blunt, but haven't you guys ever read any great literature
that leaves loose ends? In general, the finer works of literature don't have
definitive, "happily ever after" endings. I don't think the fact that
the Belgariad had loose ends says anything about whether he planned a sequel.
Frankly, I can't help thinking that if he *knew* he was going to write
a sequel then he should have made the cosmology a lot more consistent between
the two series. The fact that he didn't suggests to me that the Malloreon
was an afterthought. There weren't a lot of continuity errors within each
series, so there shouldn't be between the two *unless* the Malloreon was
an attempt to reopen what had been considered a closed story - leading to
some inevitable cosmological problems.
> I hadn't thought about 'Zakath's apostrophe before, to be honest.
I don't think it's relevant. 'Zakath was the only major character we saw from
Mallorea. For all we knew at that time, everyone in Mallorea might have had
apostrophes in front of their names. How many people can honestly say they
had any suspicions about that apostrophe being explained in some future
sequel *at the time they first read the Belgariad*?
> However, Nathan's earlier point that it seems apparent that when Eddings
> *started* the Belgariad he wasn't planning a second series, I'm not sure
> about. He may have only decided on The Malloreon half-way through writing
> The Belgariad after creating characters like Beldin and Sadi and, rather
> than quickly introducing them to the action, deciding to develop their
> characters in a second series. If Eddings' had planned a second series
> right from the beginning, I think his original concept of it was different
> to how the Malloreon turned out. The whole thing about Torak being a tool
> or a mistake, I find unconvincing.
Possible, but again, if he knew by the time he had gotten to EEG, why is the
cosmology so screwed up?
-Jeff
--
Jeff Conti | "Procrastination isn't a bad habit...it's an
Amherst College | ART FORM."
Opinions expressed are my | "So okay, I'm a conservative, what are you going
own, so tough noogies. | to do, shoot me?" *gunshot* *gunshot* *gunshot*
Matrix Enterprises
In article <4napqk$h...@tom.amherst.edu>,
jbc...@unix.amherst.edu (Lord Jeff) wrote:
>> >Now THIS I forced to disagree with. I don't think that the Malloreon
>> >was what DE originally had in mind as a second series, but there are
>> >a couple of real strong indications in the Belgariad that he was
>> >planning some type of sequel. My two favorites are the following:
>
>> >1) Errand
>> >2) The apostrophe in front of 'Zakath
>
>> Yes, I think that by the end of the Belgariad, there are many indications
>> that there was going to be a sequel of some sort. Errand is the classic
>> example. Also, I think there was a lot left unanswered about Poledra. Her
>> presence at Polgara's wedding left many threads..
>This may seem blunt, but haven't you guys ever read any great literature
>that leaves loose ends? In general, the finer works of literature don't have
>definitive, "happily ever after" endings. I don't think the fact that
>the Belgariad had loose ends says anything about whether he planned a sequel.
>Frankly, I can't help thinking that if he *knew* he was going to write
>a sequel then he should have made the cosmology a lot more consistent between
>the two series. The fact that he didn't suggests to me that the Malloreon
>was an afterthought. There weren't a lot of continuity errors within each
>series, so there shouldn't be between the two *unless* the Malloreon was
>an attempt to reopen what had been considered a closed story - leading to
>some inevitable cosmological problems.
>
Personally, I think he had an idea for a series maybe around halfway through
the Belgariad. Another additiona to Errand above is Horse. Horse was kind
of a half-developed character by the end of Belgariad, and seemed like he had
a lot more intent for Horse, Errand, etc. I do however disagree with some
of the other character's named in the previous article, namely Sadi.
I may be off mark, but I found Sadi's character somewhat different in the
Mallorean even though we only knew him for a few chapters in the Belgariad.
My $0.02.