Accents/Nationalities in Belgariad/Mallorean
Joseph Olson
Did anyone else notice that in the Belgariad, Murgos have a thick accent, and
Garion almost can't understand Malloreans because of their very thick accents,
yet in The Mallorean books, the party interacts with everyone with no
communication problems (well, except for the 'peg' in Karanda).
Joe
s...@gumby.oup-usa.org
> Somebody asked me to repost something I wrote
> about what accents would be appropriate to various peoples
> in the world of the Belgariad. While I won't repost the
> original, here's a modified version based on the compromises
> in the thread.
> Alorns: Various American (ie US) accents. This is in part
> because of the parallels between Aloria and the US in a Cold
> War analogy.
May I suggest more specifically:
Rivan: New England accent, probably Maine (*not* Boston): that
very laconic way of talking that comes when you're surrounded
by grey ocean, rocks and fog all the time.
Algar: Western accent -- again, *not* a Texan accent, more of a
Colorado/Wyoming/Montana accent. It's not as loud and boisterous
as a Texan accent: it's another accent that seems to come when
you don't talk a lot and are surrounded by nature (in this
case, wide open plains rather than ocean).
Drasnian: I don't know about the accent, since I suspect they prefer to
employ a number of accents with ease, but I see the *style* of speaking
as being sort of New York City: very fast, as if the speaker has
a few hundred other really important things to do at the moment
and would like to get on with it.
I know that you've already assigned the Arends British accents,
but if they were to have U.S. accents like the other Alorns,
I would suggest that Mandorallen is the quintissential Southern
gentleman.
> Sendars: Canadian. They are very closely tied to the
> US/Aloria but are more peaceful, and socialistic.
Makes sense: they could also have good, wholesome US Midwestern
accents.
Layla
Flapjack
would be appropriate to various peoples in the world of the Belgariad.
While I won't repost the original, here's a modified version based on
the compromises in the thread.
Alorns: Various American (ie US) accents. This is in part because of the
parallels between Aloria and the US in a Cold War analogy.
Sendars: Canadian. They are very closely tied to the US/Aloria but are more
peaceful, and socialistic.
Mibrate Arends: British.
Asturian Arends: Scottish.
Wacite Arends: Irish.
Ulgos: Jewish (that is to say a Hebraic, perhaps Eastern-European accent).
This is primarily because they worship an ancient, but very much
alive, religion (or rather follow one), and were once a nomadic
tribe which finally found a homeland.
Tolnedrans: Italian. They're very similar to the Roman empire.
Nyissans: A sibilant hiss.
Murgos: German.
Thulls: Polish.
Nadraks: Austrian (?)
Malloreans: Russian
The people of Eastern Mallorea: We had decided on Asian accents, but hadn't
gotten very specific. Gandahar was India, but that's all I can
recall.
We had also thought the island inhabited by Mibrates (what was it
called? Perivor?) would be Australian.
Can anyone add to this or correct me.
flapjack-who would like people to call him Belflapjack from now on
sch...@hermes.cam.ac.uk
>From: s...@gumby.oup-usa.org
>Subject: Re: Accents/Nationalities in Belgariad/Mallorean
>Date: 11 Nov 1994 16:40:28 GMT
>Belflapjack wrote:
>Layla
I am sorry, but I can't accept ANY of this. To me, all American accents sound
the same!
As to assigning a British accent to the Arends, what rubbish. I have never
used a thee or a though in my life. As far as I am concerned, I don't speak
with an accent. My speech is normal - it is everyone else who talks "funny"!
SCH
I believe I'll have a bit more of that, just as a buffer against the gruel.
E.M.P. Pringle
>Belflapjack wrote:
>
>> Somebody asked me to repost something I wrote
>> about what accents would be appropriate to various peoples
>> in the world of the Belgariad. While I won't repost the
>> original, here's a modified version based on the compromises
>> in the thread.
>
>> Alorns: Various American (ie US) accents. This is in part
>> because of the parallels between Aloria and the US in a Cold
>> War analogy.
>
>
I always though of the Alorns as Europeans, and the Sendars as Americans.
Certainly the Chereks are vaguely Scandinavian.
>I know that you've already assigned the Arends British accents,
>but if they were to have U.S. accents like the other Alorns,
>I would suggest that Mandorallen is the quintissential Southern
>gentleman.
Hey! Arendia is not part of Aloria!!!
I always thought that they should have Irish accents. After all, they have
certain similarities with Ireland...a long period of civil war, and generally
perceived as being stupid.
E.M.P. Pringle
<sch...@hermes.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>In article <01HJBWVGN...@vassar.edu> NOS...@vaxsar.vassar.edu (Flapjack) writes:
>>From: NOS...@vaxsar.vassar.edu (Flapjack)
>>Subject: Accents/Nationalities in Belgariad/Mallorean
>>Date: 10 Nov 1994 22:48:48 -0400 (EDT)
>
>> Somebody asked me to repost something I wrote about what accents
>>would be appropriate to various peoples in the world of the Belgariad.
>>While I won't repost the original, here's a modified version based on
>>the compromises in the thread.
>
>
>
>
>I OBJECT. I REALIZE I HAVE OBJECTED ON THIS SUBJECT BEFORE, BUT I FEEL OBLIGED
>TO CONTINUE TO OBJECT, AND SO AS TO MAKE A POINT, THIS TIME I WILL OBJECT IN
>CAPITAL LETTERS.
>
>WE IN ENGLAND DO NOT SPEAK WITH "THEES" AND "THOUS".
We do in Yorkshire, and I believe in Lancashire too, and quite possibly in
other places. As a child I sometimes used to adopt the local accent, and I most
definitely used 'thee' and 'thou' then. IRMTA :-)
> PERHAPS THE AUTHOR OF
>THIS ARTICLE IS ARENDISH, SEEING AS THERE IS GENERAL AGREEMENT AS TO THE LACK
>OF MENTAL PROWESS OF THE ARENDS, AND THE AUTHOR IS UNABLE TO SPELL MIMBRATE!
>
>AN IRRATED EDDINGS FAN, WRITING FROM TRINITY COLLEGE, CAMBRIDGE. AN
>EDUCATIONAL ESTABLISHMENT WITH MORE NOBEL PRIZES THAN FRANCE!
>
>SCH
A not-particularly-irritated Eddings fan from Newnham, which doesn't have any
nobel prizes at all because Rosalind Franklin died :-(
CRAIG JOHN LENNOX COWLED
: I am sorry, but I can't accept ANY of this. To me, all American accents sound
: the same!
: As to assigning a British accent to the Arends, what rubbish. I have never
: used a thee or a though in my life. As far as I am concerned, I don't speak
: with an accent. My speech is normal - it is everyone else who talks "funny"
Gods I love this. It's good to have the opinion of someone other than an
American. I myself am Australian (and bloody well proud of it too). I
have to say that I have a somewhat different view to the previous
American postings. So let's have an Australian view of things:
Riva: Geographically, like the UK. Therefore, British. Also, the
Rivans are isolated from the main continent and would have a different
accent to their Alorn cousins.
Cherek: Reminds me of the Viking states. Sort of a brutish, harsh accent.
Drasnia: (This one is a bit tricky as the intelligence service reminds me
of the extensive secret intelligence service operated by the Isreali's;
"Mosha", I think.) However, Drasnia could also be likened to Russia. So
I'm not sure what sort of accent would prevail in Silk's home country.
My best guess says that Drasnians would have a very mild accent that
doesn't give much away. (Then again, you have to realise that regional
accents are bound to pop up in the country areas of all nations.)
Algaria: Reminds me of the cattle/sheep-droving communities of central
Australia and the equivalent in America. My guess is that the wide open
spaces where echoes are scarce (so people don't usually hear themselves)
would breed a rather broad accent: either Texan or rural Australian.
Sendaria: Reminds me of the practical neutrality of Switzerland. Eastern
European accent would be my guess; French or something.
Ulgo: The Ulgo community is reminiscent of many early protestant
communities in central europe, hiding from the rest of the world. Their
accent would be warped by the echoes of the caves. I think Eddings
mentions that it was harsh and gutteral.
Arendia: Archaic to say the least. I envisage medieval England. (Note:
this is different to Modern day England.) Possibly Celtic or Welsh; not
too sure on that one.
Tolnedra: Obviously pointing to ancient Rome. Very militaristic and
precise amongst military circles. Probably mediterranean amongst the
general populace.
Marag: Being mostly female and therefore romantic; probably had a very
smooth, flowing, lyric tongue.
Nyissa: G. B. Christiansen pointed out to me that Nyissa is much like
ancient Egypt, both culturally, geographically and historically. But I
don't know what Egyptians sound like. Having lived in the tropics
myself, I know that you tend to feel incredibly lazy in the heat and so
the speech is probably very lethargic and slow as well as having the
influence of their national mascot, the sibilant snake.
As for the rest, I couldn't be bothered right now. I've already covered
the Western Kingdoms. Although I do feel that the Angaraks resemble
Asians in many respects. Oh, and the Morindim closely resemble voodoo
oriented Africa or even New Guinea (where I have lived); tribalistic.
Karands value their pigs in much the same way that Papua New Guineans
honour theirs.
So there is an Australian viewpoint on accents.
Craig.
km...@aber.ac.uk
(Cut article mentioned the connection between Mimbrate Arends and British
accents...)
>I OBJECT. I REALIZE I HAVE OBJECTED ON THIS SUBJECT BEFORE, BUT I FEEL OBLIGED
>TO CONTINUE TO OBJECT, AND SO AS TO MAKE A POINT, THIS TIME I WILL OBJECT IN
>CAPITAL LETTERS.
>WE IN ENGLAND DO NOT SPEAK WITH "THEES" AND "THOUS". PERHAPS THE AUTHOR OF
>THIS ARTICLE IS ARENDISH, SEEING AS THERE IS GENERAL AGREEMENT AS TO THE LACK
>OF MENTAL PROWESS OF THE ARENDS, AND THE AUTHOR IS UNABLE TO SPELL MIMBRATE!
>
>AN IRRATED EDDINGS FAN, WRITING FROM TRINITY COLLEGE, CAMBRIDGE. AN
^^^^^^^^^^^^
What was that you were saying about spelling? Irritated or irate - make up your
mind!
>EDUCATIONAL ESTABLISHMENT WITH MORE NOBEL PRIZES THAN FRANCE!
Who it seems cannot put forward a coherent argument without both shouting and insulting the previous poster. There is nothing wrong with stating your opinion, but please do
so in the format observed by everyone else. Shouting is rude, especially since
the original poster said nothing about the English using 'thee's ' and 'thou's'-
they were talking about accents, not vocabulary.
-K.
sch...@hermes.cam.ac.uk
>From: NOS...@vaxsar.vassar.edu (Flapjack)
>Subject: Accents/Nationalities in Belgariad/Mallorean
>Date: 10 Nov 1994 22:48:48 -0400 (EDT)
> Somebody asked me to repost something I wrote about what accents
>would be appropriate to various peoples in the world of the Belgariad.
>While I won't repost the original, here's a modified version based on
>the compromises in the thread.
>Mibrate Arends: British.
I OBJECT. I REALIZE I HAVE OBJECTED ON THIS SUBJECT BEFORE, BUT I FEEL OBLIGED
TO CONTINUE TO OBJECT, AND SO AS TO MAKE A POINT, THIS TIME I WILL OBJECT IN
CAPITAL LETTERS.
WE IN ENGLAND DO NOT SPEAK WITH "THEES" AND "THOUS". PERHAPS THE AUTHOR OF
THIS ARTICLE IS ARENDISH, SEEING AS THERE IS GENERAL AGREEMENT AS TO THE LACK
OF MENTAL PROWESS OF THE ARENDS, AND THE AUTHOR IS UNABLE TO SPELL MIMBRATE!
AN IRRATED EDDINGS FAN, WRITING FROM TRINITY COLLEGE, CAMBRIDGE. AN
EDUCATIONAL ESTABLISHMENT WITH MORE NOBEL PRIZES THAN FRANCE!
SCH
Flapjack
my original post. I'd like to respond to the criticisms I received and
I will refrain from using phrases like "Oh yeah, you Limey twits? Just
who do you think invented the Internet?"
I'll start off by making a few confessions:
1) I was being American-centric. Okay, true, but in my original post (the
one which started all this controversy was a condensed repost) I explained
that these were the accents I would envision in my head when reading the
books, or more specifically re-reading them. As an American, I tended to
envision the most sympathetic characters as American as well. It is
understandable that a British reader would imagine a more British-sounding
Garion. I could argue that, since Eddings is American, he would agree
with me, but I'm sure he would rather have his readers make whatever
decisions they'd like to make the books more enjoyable.
2) I misspelled "Mimbrate." This was really just a typo I didn't catch in
time. And, to paraphrase comedian Chris O'Carrol, I don't need to take
any crap from people who think there's an F in lieutenant (yuk, yuk, the
proper response to this is "There's a lot of F-in' lieutenants, mate!")
3) I was using stereotypes. Oh sure, but Eddings's books are full of
stereotypes (all Thulls are stupid, all Sendarians are practical). Such
stereotypes are common in fanstasy, and my list was meant to fit that.
I obviously don't believe that all Germans act or have accents like the
Nazi characters in bad WWII movies, but that sort of accent seemed to fit
Murgos well (by the way, I know that Angaraks are supposed to look Asian,
but I thought giving them European accents would lessen any racism inherant
in that).
And now some denials:
1) I think that the people of England, Scotland and Ireland are stupid like
Arends. No, I don't. I do think, however, and I believe there is photo-
graphic evidence to back me up here (I haven't been to the UK since I was
five, so my personal experience is limited), that they do live in a country
with a lot of castles and have a history which involves knights and civil
wars. Also, as England etc., Arendia fits very well into a Cold War analogy
put forth by a very intelligent reader of the original post whose name
escapes me (the reader not the post). Here we have Aloria as the US, the
holders of a great power (the orb/nuclear power), and the primary force
against an Eastern power. While Arendia is a powerful and important ally
in this conflict they are not the ultimate power nor the primary target
of hostility from the East (I'm not saying that, in real life, this was a
bad thing; I think the Cold War was incredibly stupid and the British were
wise to spend it further devloping their culture and having their government
officials get into sex scandals). Anyway, Mandorallen does act like a
perfect upperclass Englishman and you can't tell me that it isn't fun to
say Lleldorin of Widlantor with a Highland lilt.
2) All Americans sound the same. Nuh uh! I'm a crotchety New Englander,
and if you tell me I sound the same as Jesse Helms you'll find yourself
with a nosefull of Pepperidge Farms Distinctive cookies. And hey, I can
tell the difference between London and Yorkshire dialects. Of course, I
live in Meryl Streep's old dorm room, so maybe something has rubbed off.
3) The Rivans must be English, because they map of the Western continent
looks like Europe and the Isle of the Winds looks like the UK. Sure, but
we can't carry that too far. That would make Sendars French, Arends German
(I'm simplifying Geography here, I know), Drasnians Russian and that all
seems very arbitrary, while I like to think my list made some sense. Besides,
the map really falls apart after Aloria. What about southern Cthol Murgos?
Should Urgit sound South African?
And finally, some clarifications:
Let's make the Nadraks French. This way they're basically allies with the
West who are constantly under the power of the East (ie WWII).
Someone suggested the Marags should be Carthaginians, as a race destroyed by
the Roman Tolnedrans. Sounds good, but what's a Carthaginian accent?
For more specific Alorian accents:
Chereks: Southern: hootin' hollerin' good old boys (remember what I said about
stereotypes)
Rivans: New Englanders: Ostensibly drab sensible types with a great love
of beauty (read Frost).
Drasnians: Cosmopolitan New Yorkers?
Algars: Southwestern.
Okay, that's my rebuttal. What do you think, sirs?
belflapjack-who was just joking about the "Bel," but if you want to run with
it, hell, fine with me.
sch...@hermes.cam.ac.uk
>>Mibrate Arends: British.
>I OBJECT. I REALIZE I HAVE OBJECTED ON THIS SUBJECT BEFORE, BUT I FEEL OBLIGED
>TO CONTINUE TO OBJECT, AND SO AS TO MAKE A POINT, THIS TIME I WILL OBJECT IN
>CAPITAL LETTERS.
>WE IN ENGLAND DO NOT SPEAK WITH "THEES" AND "THOUS". PERHAPS THE AUTHOR OF
>THIS ARTICLE IS ARENDISH, SEEING AS THERE IS GENERAL AGREEMENT AS TO THE LACK
>OF MENTAL PROWESS OF THE ARENDS, AND THE AUTHOR IS UNABLE TO SPELL MIMBRATE!
>AN IRRATED EDDINGS FAN, WRITING FROM TRINITY COLLEGE, CAMBRIDGE. AN
>EDUCATIONAL ESTABLISHMENT WITH MORE NOBEL PRIZES THAN FRANCE!
>SCH
Oh dear, I seem to have got myself in trouble. This is beginning to become
habit forming. I must confess that if I am to complain about other people's
splling, then I really ought to check my own. I am also fully aware just how
irritating capital letters are. I will respond to one complainent that I too
am from Yorkshire, Huddersfield in fact, and I will still maintain that
"thees" and "thous" are not spoken there in general.
I am not going to back down from the point that I was attempting to make. It
is impossible to separate the issue of accents of countries from that of the
entire country. Britain has never been a country to perpetuate serfdom.
Perhaps you should try pre-revolutionary France for that. Also, despite
American popularizations of this country, there are not castles on every
hillside. I don't believe that we are continually at war with ourselves
either. I could go on, but I won't.
Someone else can deal with the issue of stupidity
SCH
K McIsaac
>From: sch...@hermes.cam.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: Accents/Nationalities in Belgariad/Mallorean
>In article <01HJBWVGN...@vassar.edu> NOS...@vaxsar.vassar.edu (Flapjack) writes:
>>From: NOS...@vaxsar.vassar.edu (Flapjack)
>>Subject: Accents/Nationalities in Belgariad/Mallorean
>>Date: 10 Nov 1994 22:48:48 -0400 (EDT)
>> Somebody asked me to repost something I wrote about what accents
>>would be appropriate to various peoples in the world of the Belgariad.
>>While I won't repost the original, here's a modified version based on
>>the compromises in the thread.
>>Mibrate Arends: British.
>I OBJECT. I REALIZE I HAVE OBJECTED ON THIS SUBJECT BEFORE, BUT I FEEL OBLIGED
>TO CONTINUE TO OBJECT, AND SO AS TO MAKE A POINT, THIS TIME I WILL OBJECT IN
>CAPITAL LETTERS.
>WE IN ENGLAND DO NOT SPEAK WITH "THEES" AND "THOUS". PERHAPS THE AUTHOR OF
>THIS ARTICLE IS ARENDISH, SEEING AS THERE IS GENERAL AGREEMENT AS TO THE LACK
>OF MENTAL PROWESS OF THE ARENDS, AND THE AUTHOR IS UNABLE TO SPELL MIMBRATE!
No one has said that the Mimbrates speak with the _diction_ of British
people, but with their _accents_. In other words, of course no one uses "
thee" or "thou". (Except, I've heard, in small parts of Yorkshire. But
that is not important right now.)
The point is that you can not speak with "thee's" and "thou's" without
using an English accent. Try it. Go read Shakespeare out loud with an
accent like John Wayne. You'll sound ridiculous.
Who cares that no English people use "thee" and "thou". The Mimbrates do,
and to do so convincingly requires a British accent.
So stop shouting.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Give us a boy until he's five, and he's ours."
-Ignatius of Loyola.
Donal K. Fellows
<sch...@hermes.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
[ Original reference (partially) lost ]
>>>Mibrate Arends: British.
>
>>I OBJECT. I REALIZE I HAVE OBJECTED ON THIS SUBJECT BEFORE, BUT I FEEL OBLIGED
>>TO CONTINUE TO OBJECT, AND SO AS TO MAKE A POINT, THIS TIME I WILL OBJECT IN
>>CAPITAL LETTERS.
>
Oh, do you have to? If you keep this up I'll need ear-plugs... :)
>>WE IN ENGLAND DO NOT SPEAK WITH "THEES" AND "THOUS". PERHAPS THE AUTHOR OF
>>THIS ARTICLE IS ARENDISH, SEEING AS THERE IS GENERAL AGREEMENT AS TO THE LACK
>>OF MENTAL PROWESS OF THE ARENDS, AND THE AUTHOR IS UNABLE TO SPELL MIMBRATE!
>
>>AN IRRATED EDDINGS FAN, WRITING FROM TRINITY COLLEGE, CAMBRIDGE. AN
>>EDUCATIONAL ESTABLISHMENT WITH MORE NOBEL PRIZES THAN FRANCE!
>
>Oh dear, I seem to have got myself in trouble. This is beginning to become
>habit forming. I must confess that if I am to complain about other people's
>splling, then I really ought to check my own. I am also fully aware just how
>irritating capital letters are. I will respond to one complainent that I too
>am from Yorkshire, Huddersfield in fact, and I will still maintain that
>"thees" and "thous" are not spoken there in general.
>
As someone who:
a) Grew up in Yorkshire (Bradford actually)
b) Lives there
c) Went to Churchill College, Cambridge
I can hereby state, in the most uncertain terms that:
a) Thee and thou are still used, but not all the time. Perhaps if
S.C.Hogley (set your Personal Name please) encountered more from
the northern part of the West Riding, they would understand a bit
better... [ patronising :) ]
b) It is fine to get yourself in trouble on Usenet, so long as you
wear asbestos underwear...
c) Trinity are a bunch of sc*ff*rs anyway... :)
>I am not going to back down from the point that I was attempting to make. It
>is impossible to separate the issue of accents of countries from that of the
>entire country. Britain has never been a country to perpetuate serfdom.
>Perhaps you should try pre-revolutionary France for that. Also, despite
>American popularizations of this country, there are not castles on every
>hillside. I don't believe that we are continually at war with ourselves
>either. I could go on, but I won't.
>
I actually agree with this. Whoever heard of a German sounding Murgo!
The Murgos must be Arabs... I will include my list of who corresponds
to who ((probably) including accents), just to stir things up...
----- Begin ~/eddings/country.correspondences ------------------------------
The West
~~~~~~~~~~
Riva U.K. (the climate fits, as well as quite a bit
of how the people actually are, IMO)
Cherek Norse/Vikings
Drasnia Northern Germany?
Algaria American Indians/Mongols
Sendaria Also U.K./U.S. (not sure of distribution of
ideas between here and Riva)
Ulgoland Trogloditic Tibet!
Arendia Robin Hood(Asturia)/Knights(Mimbre) in the
Middle Ages
Tolnedra The Roman Empire
Nyissa Egypt (sort of)
The Western Angaraks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gar og Nadrak Canada/Parts of Russia
Morindland Pick your arctic waste inhabited by Eskimos/Inuit
Mishrak ac Thull Poland
Cthol Murgos Arabia writ large, complete with Grolims as
``Mad Mullahs'' :)
Mallorea
~~~~~~~~~~
Ancient Mallorea Russia (esp. south of the taiga)
Dalasia India without the communal violence
Karanda Very similar to the Morinds, but more trees...
Melcene Japan with added U.K (!?)
Celanta China/Korea
Gandahar S.E. Asia (especially the jungles)
Darshiva Also S.E. Asia, but without the jungles...
----- End ~/eddings/country.correspondences --------------------------------
The Mimbrates are most of the Middle Ages, for nearly the whole of
northern Europe.
>Someone else can deal with the issue of stupidity
>
Apart from, as someone else has said, the fact that the original
poster must be Arendish, I would like to add that the English are not
all Knights and Serfs, and that we are an inherently superior country
to the US. :)
Donal.
--
Donal K. Fellows, (PGP stuff not ready yet, but I'm working on it... :)
Dept. of Computer Science, 6, Randall Place, Heaton,
University of Manchester Bradford, BD9 4AE
U.K. Tel: ++44-161-275-6137 U.K. Tel: ++44-1274-545252
sch...@hermes.cam.ac.uk
>From: fell...@cs.man.ac.uk (Donal K. Fellows)
>Subject: Re: Accents/Nationalities in Belgariad/Mallorean
>Apart from, as someone else has said, the fact that the original
>poster must be Arendish, I would like to add that the English are not
>all Knights and Serfs, and that we are an inherently superior country
>to the US. :)
>Donal.
Aha! I am beginning to see some agreement on this subject at last. It is good
to see so many Yorkshire Eddings fans. How's about a sub-newsgroup?
Who said the Nadraks were French? What a good idea. Especially after the end
of SOK, where they were ignored at the accords of Dal Perivor. Oh dear. I am
letting my national prejudices get in the way again.
SCH
(I'll get round to fixing the name - eventually)
Flapjack
In my last message I said:
>3) The Rivans must be English, because they map of the Western continent
>looks like Europe and the Isle of the Winds looks like the UK. Sure, but
>we can't carry that too far. That would make Sendars French, Arends German
>(I'm simplifying Geography here, I know)
Actually, I was radically altering geography, Arendia is actually
right about where Spain would be and has an Iberian-like peninsula to prove
it. Sorry, I didn't have the maps at hand when I wrote the post. I'm just
glad I caught myself before someone else did.
flapjack-who just loves the British, really, he eats English muffins all
the time. (yuk yuk)
Flapjack
(Anne Drewett) wrote:
(this is all snipped up, by the way)
> I feel that Eddings has created
>nations and peoples that are too stereotypical to be realistic. I would
>sincerely hope that he did not have particular groupings in THIS world
>in mind when he wrote Belgariad and Mallorean, and I think that we
>should therefore be reluctant to relate his groupings to any in our
>world, so as to avoid any further stereotyping.
Well, yes. I think you've found the heart of the argument here.
I never said that, for example, the Murgos _were_ Germans, I said that
a stereotypical German accent might be appropriate for Murgo characters.
Originally I was just saying that it was fun, when reading the books, or
perhaps re-reading them for the third or fourth time, as I'm sure many
of us have done, to do such accents and character voices. That's why the
first time I posted this I called it "Accents." The nationalities came
later and only as a response to the Cold War metaphor someone proposed.
Probably, I did get away from the original intent of the post, and that was
bad because it's caused all this strife. I still like the Cold War allegory,
and I'll explain why.
>I also don't think that we should be drawing parallels between events in
>Belgariad/Mallorean to any events in our world, such as the conflict
>between Alorns & Co, and Murgos & Co, as being a symbolic representation
>of the Cold War. They should be seen as events in their own right, and
>not some carbon copy of our wordly events. If it seems that
>there is a direct link between the two, then that is a failure on the
>behalf of Eddings. If his writings are mere allegories of events that
>have happened in THIS world, and I hope that they aren't, it would put a
>shadow on his ability to create worthwhile plots.
I have to disagree with you here Ms. Drewett. I think allegory
is extremely worthwile, especially an allegory for the state of the world
in the latter half of the twentieth century. An allegory like that might
elevate Eddings in some people's mind from a "mere" fantasy author to a
soiial commentator (I wouldn't hop on that particular bandwagon personally,
I think "mere" fantasy has a lot of validity, and also that Eddings falls
a little short as social commentator). Using an allegory hardly means that
Eddings couldn't come up with an original plot. One must admit that the
Belgariad is an old story: boy goes on a long quest, comes of age, discovers
great power and finds love. Besides, the storyline doesn't follow the Cold
War exactly. How could it? Eddings presumably had the Mallorean pretty
well mapped out when he started writing it and that was in 1987 or so, long
before the fall of Communism which didn't really wrap up (though it was
fairly obviously going to) until the end of 1991, after Seeress of Kell had
already come out. Look at a Cold War analogy as merely another level on
which to enjoy the series, which is already enjoyable as comedy, adventure,
fantasy, romance etc.
flapjack-who needs to get off his roommate's computer
Donal K. Fellows
Flapjack <NOS...@vaxsar.vassar.edu> wrote:
> Okay, I'm sorry if I offended this newsgroup's British readers in
>my original post. I'd like to respond to the criticisms I received and
>I will refrain from using phrases like "Oh yeah, you Limey twits? Just
>who do you think invented the Internet?"
That's OK. A good flame-war heats up the blood in the cold winter
months. Firewood is expensive in Tol Honeth... :)
> I'll start off by making a few confessions:
>
[ Stuff I don't object to deleted ]
>3) I was using stereotypes. Oh sure, but Eddings's books are full of
>stereotypes (all Thulls are stupid, all Sendarians are practical). Such
>stereotypes are common in fanstasy, and my list was meant to fit that.
>I obviously don't believe that all Germans act or have accents like the
>Nazi characters in bad WWII movies, but that sort of accent seemed to fit
>Murgos well (by the way, I know that Angaraks are supposed to look Asian,
>but I thought giving them European accents would lessen any racism inherant
>in that).
>
We live closer to them, and we feel it is quite all right to be a bit
xenophobic w.r.t the Asians... :)
[ How do you do a tounge-in-cheek smiley? ]
>And now some denials:
>
>1) I think that the people of England, Scotland and Ireland are stupid like
>Arends. No, I don't. I do think, however, and I believe there is photo-
>graphic evidence to back me up here (I haven't been to the UK since I was
>five, so my personal experience is limited), that they do live in a country
>with a lot of castles and have a history which involves knights and civil
>wars. Also, as England etc., Arendia fits very well into a Cold War analogy
>put forth by a very intelligent reader of the original post whose name
>escapes me (the reader not the post). Here we have Aloria as the US, the
>holders of a great power (the orb/nuclear power), and the primary force
>against an Eastern power. While Arendia is a powerful and important ally
>in this conflict they are not the ultimate power nor the primary target
>of hostility from the East (I'm not saying that, in real life, this was a
>bad thing; I think the Cold War was incredibly stupid and the British were
>wise to spend it further devloping their culture and having their government
>officials get into sex scandals). Anyway, Mandorallen does act like a
>perfect upperclass Englishman and you can't tell me that it isn't fun to
>say Lleldorin of Widlantor with a Highland lilt.
>
While we may have a lot of castles in comparison to the US (we're
older), we don't actually have that many. I travel ~40 miles to work
each day, and I don't see any castles during that time. I see
motorways, traffic-jams, heavy industry and moorland. (Hmm. Parhaps
there are parts of the UK that could do as stand-ins for Drasnia...)
Oh, and Lleldorin sounds Welsh with that ll in it. I can't really describe
how to pronounce it, except that it's a bit like a cross between L and
clearing your throat... sort of... The sound just isn't in English (or
Scots for that matter). You might as well have someone called Vladimir
Ivanovich speaking with a heavy Japanese accent... :)
>2) All Americans sound the same. Nuh uh! I'm a crotchety New Englander,
>and if you tell me I sound the same as Jesse Helms you'll find yourself
>with a nosefull of Pepperidge Farms Distinctive cookies. And hey, I can
>tell the difference between London and Yorkshire dialects. Of course, I
>live in Meryl Streep's old dorm room, so maybe something has rubbed off.
>
I believe that was a rhetorical response... :)
>3) The Rivans must be English, because they map of the Western continent
>looks like Europe and the Isle of the Winds looks like the UK. Sure, but
>we can't carry that too far. That would make Sendars French, Arends German
>(I'm simplifying Geography here, I know), Drasnians Russian and that all
>seems very arbitrary, while I like to think my list made some sense. Besides,
>the map really falls apart after Aloria. What about southern Cthol Murgos?
>Should Urgit sound South African?
>
Well, I like the idea of the Rivans being English (I would!), but I
think that there are definite strains of Sendar throughout N. Europe
and N. America. However:
1) The Chereks simply _must_ be Vikings! It fits sooo well!
2) The Murgos really have to be Arabs (no disrespect intended)
>And finally, some clarifications:
>
>Let's make the Nadraks French. This way they're basically allies with the
>West who are constantly under the power of the East (ie WWII).
>
I beg your pardon? Making them Finns would be more sensible...
>Someone suggested the Marags should be Carthaginians, as a race destroyed by
>the Roman Tolnedrans. Sounds good, but what's a Carthaginian accent?
>
I prefer the Aztecs (killed for gold, known for human sacrifice,
etc.), though I have no idea what an Aztec accent is like! :)
>For more specific Alorian accents:
>
>Chereks: Southern: hootin' hollerin' good old boys (remember what I said about
>stereotypes)
>
Err, see above.
>Rivans: New Englanders: Ostensibly drab sensible types with a great love
>of beauty (read Frost).
>
Old Englanders fit quite well here too.
>Okay, that's my rebuttal. What do you think, sirs?
>
Not too bad. I prefer text without TABs in though (gets munged less
for some people).
>belflapjack-who was just joking about the "Bel," but if you want to run with
> it, hell, fine with me.
>
Beldonal (who thinks this has got far too long...)
sch...@hermes.cam.ac.uk
Russia - In DLoK, Yarblek is described as stubbornly wearing his felt coat and
fur hat. I see some similarities in clothing worn.
BTW, I have decided after recent exchanges, I will be SCH no longer. From now
on, I will be Detton.
Detton
Robert Henry Owen
opportunity to give my $0.02 that I couldn't resist.
Chereks: Vikings. No question.
Rivans: I always thought of Riva as a kind of dismal England. I mean,
it's a small island off the mainland coast and tends to have lousy
weather. Seems like a pretty fair description to me :)
Arends: I've always thought of the Arends as being the archetypal
medieval society. If forced, I'd say Arendia is based on the Wales of
the time when England was trying to conquer it (bad sentence structure
_and_ I can't remember when that was), but only because of Lelldorin's
name. Mind you, since the double l is followed by a consonant, it could
very well _not_ be Welsh (I don't believe they use the double l before
a consonant), in which case I would opt for English accents
(I always associate medieval times w/ English accents...) but a sort of
Medieval Germany-style nationality.
Algars: The Mongols seem like a good comparison at first, but it breaks
down on a number of points. However, I can't really think of any other
nomadic horsemen -- I don't think of them being cowboys at all, they
have the wrong mentality [their humor is _understated_] -- so I guess
the Mongols will have to do...
Drasnians: No single nationality comes to mind, although I kind of like
to think of them as American. No particular reason.
Tolnedrans: Romans. Not much question, I think.
Marags: Since there's so little description of them, it's hard to say,
but instead of that Carthaginian analogy, I would use of the Asia Minor
tribes the Romans obliterated (or at least destructively assimilated).
Nyissans: Any of a number of Asian jungle peoples. A sort of
stereo-typical Vietnam/Cambodia/India mishmash.
Sendars: Always seem to me to be the stereotypical Yankee (as viewed
by the Americans), i.e. practical, sober, thrifty, dependable, etc.
Nadraks: Russians? It seems like a pretty good analogy if you look at
the frontier-type Russians of the nineteenth century (and not at the
nobles/industrial workers). Yes, I'd say Russian.
Malloreans: The description of the Mallorean Empire as a political unit
is an almost perfect description of the Chinese Empire (although I don't
think it was intended to be [i.e. I think DE was simply taking the
typical aspects of empires and drew on them to make the Mallorean
Empire). You've got the major race getting advice and aid from a minor
race, the multiple different
nationalities, politics and bureaucracy up the wazoo, civil wars, etc.
The list goes on and on. The only problem is that the Malloreans never
seemed _physically_ Chinese. Societally, yes, but physically I just
don't know. Maybe Indian (real Indian, not Native American)?
(A note on physicality: in EE, the Mallorean troops are described as big
and burly (I think), although lacking both the thick brutish strength of
the Thulls and any racially distinguishing characteristics. Other than
that... and on the Chinese analogy, notice how similar Melcene --
capitalist haven -- is to Japan? [yes, I know several people have
noticed, but it seemed a little _too_ obvious to me])
Murgos: The Dagashi are a cross between the ninja and the Islamic secret
killers, whose name I have forgotten (the Arabian ninjas...) The Murgos
themselves always seemed Arabic to me but I don't know why. I guess
mainly because they were described as foreign but did not seem
physically like any asian race except maybe the Indians.
To me, the strength of Eddings' writing is that it resists one-to-one
comparisons like this. He extracts typical characteristics of many
different types of things and puts them all together into a cohesive
whole which is instantly _recognizable_ but not a direct copy of
anything (except maybe the Chereks). I don't know about anyone else, but
the thing I like best about the Belgariad, and found lacking in his
other works (not to say I didn't enjoy them) is watching him portray
societies like the Nyissans or the Nadraks (or any of them from that
matter) as real, dynamic entities.
Anyway, my 2c.
Robert Owen
bob...@princeton.edu
Kalten
become : habit forming. I must confess that if I am to complain about
other people's : splling, then I really ought to check my own. I am also
fully aware just how : irritating capital letters are. I will respond to
one complainent that I too : am from Yorkshire, Huddersfield in fact, and
I will still maintain that : "thees" and "thous" are not spoken there in
Hmm.......that last argument made interesting reading. And at the end of
the day, if you asked someone where Thees and Thous came from people would
think England. After all the words do come from the Old English language.
Hmm.......that last argument made interesting reading. And at the end of
the day, if you asked someone where Thees and Thous came from people would
think England. After all the words do come from the Old English language.
However, you're right when you say only a minute number of people still
use the language and regardless of what the previous chap says less than
one in ten people adopt the 'local' accent in that part of the country.
Kalten~!!!
Donal K. Fellows
Kalten <cm3b...@bs47c.staffs.ac.uk> wrote:
>: Oh dear, I seem to have got myself in trouble. This is beginning to
>: become habit forming. I must confess that if I am to complain about
>: other people's splling, then I really ought to check my own. I am
>: also fully aware just how irritating capital letters are. I will
>: respond to one complainent that I too am from Yorkshire, Huddersfield
>: in fact, and I will still maintain that "thees" and "thous" are not
>: spoken there in general.
>
>Hmm.......that last argument made interesting reading. And at the end of
>the day, if you asked someone where Thees and Thous came from people would
>think England. After all the words do come from the Old English language.
>Hmm.......that last argument made interesting reading. And at the end of
>the day, if you asked someone where Thees and Thous came from people would
>think England. After all the words do come from the Old English language.
>However, you're right when you say only a minute number of people still
>use the language and regardless of what the previous chap says less than
>one in ten people adopt the 'local' accent in that part of the country.
>
I think that you might both be confusing accent (which actually is
adopted by most of the people in the area) and dialect which has the
above stated takeup (IMHO). Shame really, since I quite like thee and
thou...
Donal.
--
Donal K. Fellows, A.K.A. ``I'll get a life when I can find the FTP site...''