Crown Prince Geran & Disciple Zedar
Jonathan R. Brater
as being capable of immortality. Even Riva died, as we know...
Dozens of firstborn male descendants of Riva Iron-Grip have touched the
Orb of Aldur shortly after they were born. The simple act of touching the
Orb did not confer immortality to Geran.
The only thing that distinguishes Geran from the common descendents of
Riva is that he was the Child of Dark for a few minutes because Zandramas
chose him as her successor. Had Cyradis chosen him to be the all-powerful
Super-Torak Evil God of Angarak, obviously immortality would have been
conferred, but this did not happen. Unless Geran learns the Will and the
Word, his only claim to immortality is having been the Child of Dark.
Of course, being the former Child of Dark is no light matter (pardon the
pun). However unwillingly, Geran was the focus of all of the Dark
Prophecy's power for a short time. We could grant that Geran might become
immortal due to this, but we must recognize that the reason is that he was
the CHILD OF DARK.
No Child of Light (Poledra, Belgarion, Eriond) has yet been proven mortal,
just as no Child of Dark (Torak, Zandramas, Geran) has yet been shown to
die of natural causes. Zandramas is certainly immortal, for she and the
Sardion will spend eternity patching the rift in the Universe caused by
the distant Galaxy's explosion.
Geran's resume is limited to the following:
* Child of Dark Emeritus
* Crown Prince of Riva
I happen to believe, however, that Geran will inherit the throne of Riva.
Belgarion will step down, either when Geran is old enough to rule wisely,
or when Eriond, Child of Light, True God of Angarak, and Future God of the
World, is worshipped widely enough to cause UL, Aldur, Issa, Belar, Mara,
Nedra, and whoever else I forgot, to leave the World in Eriond's care and
move on to other regions of the Universe. Add to Geran's resume:
* King of Riva
The Accords of Vo Mibre, by which Belgarion was known at Erastide, might
not apply to Geran. Belgarion might keep the following provisions of the
Accords to himself:
* Shall take a Tolnedran Imperial Princess to Wife
* Lord of the Western Sea
* Overlord of the West (If Geran Dies Without Leaving Heirs,
Belgarion can Use This Title to Retake the Throne of Riva
or Name a New King of Riva)
Other titles exist which Belgarion cannot transfer to Geran anyway:
* Godslayer
* Child of Light Emeritus
Since it has been mentioned that Zedar is still living, sealed up deep in
the earth under Cthol Mishrak, and can only be released by Belgarath,
allow me to argue that a very good chance exists for Zedar to be freed.
Consider:
* Beldin, who swore to put Zedar back in the earth if Belgarath ever
released Zedar, has departed this World, presumably forever, when
he flew off with Vella. His threat is no longer in force.
* Eriond, Child of Light, True God of Angarak, and Future God of the
World, has pity and compassion for <SIGH> "Poor Zedar...", and will
be totally free to act when the Other Gods Leave.
* Torak used the WILL OF A GOD to dominate Zedar and twist out all
the loyalty of Belzedar toward his old Master Aldur, turning him
into a Disciple of Evil, and forced him to commit terrible crimes,
with Zedar helpless to resist.
* Erion could likewise use the WILL OF A GOD to coerce Belgarath into
freeing Zedar, and could use the same WILL to restore Zedar's mind
to his pre-Torak state, allowing him to be reinstated as Belzedar,
Disciple of the True God of Angarak, a fine irony, considering
Eriond was the little boy he dragged around the world with him.
(Eriond was found by Zedar in an Angarak town, after all, so yes,
Eriond is, and has always been, an Angarak.)
Donal K. Fellows
[ Lots of argument that I agree with, and won't clutter the net with ]
[ by quoting :) ]
I happen to think that the only way Geran could become `immortal' would
be by learning how to be a sorceror (note that I actually distinguish
between immortal and non-aging, since the former implies that they
_cannot_ die).
I also think that Garion will step down in favour of Geran when Geran
is old enough, sice I feel that Garion is not _that_ fond of being
King... :)
Minor techincal point, UL won't leave, because UL is everywhere...
(explicitly stated in Seeress)
>The Accords of Vo Mibre, by which Belgarion was known at Erastide, might
>not apply to Geran. Belgarion might keep the following provisions of the
>Accords to himself:
>
> * Shall take a Tolnedran Imperial Princess to Wife
> * Lord of the Western Sea
> * Overlord of the West (If Geran Dies Without Leaving Heirs,
> Belgarion can Use This Title to Retake the Throne of Riva
> or Name a New King of Riva)
>
I got the feeling that the Accords only applied to Garion anyway, and
not his children. I would have thought that a daughter of Zakath and
Cyradis would be far closer to the sort of political acction needed to
indicate to a fair number of thick-headed Alorns that there was no
longer a need for a holy war against the Angaraks...
>Other titles exist which Belgarion cannot transfer to Geran anyway:
>
> * Godslayer
> * Child of Light Emeritus
>
Oh, I don't know about that. Geran can have the title Godslayer just
as soon as he slays a God... :)
>Since it has been mentioned that Zedar is still living, sealed up deep in
>the earth under Cthol Mishrak, and can only be released by Belgarath,
>allow me to argue that a very good chance exists for Zedar to be freed.
>
Now, _there_ is scope for another few books... :)
Donal.
--
Donal K. Fellows, | dk...@cus.cam.ac.uk | See the Cambridge University
Churchill College, | dk...@phx.cam.ac.uk | Computer Society's directory
Cambridge, CB3 0DS, | dk...@hermes.cam.ac.uk | on Gopher. Now with added
United Kingdom. | (dk...@cl.cam.ac.uk) | information! :)
Andy
In article <2i7k61$3...@mailer.fsu.edu>, jbr...@garnet.acns.fsu.edu (Jonathan R. Brater) writes:
|> Belgarion is the only descendant of Riva Iron-Grip who has been identified
|> as being capable of immortality. Even Riva died, as we know...
|>
|> Dozens of firstborn male descendants of Riva Iron-Grip have touched the
|> Orb of Aldur shortly after they were born. The simple act of touching the
|> Orb did not confer immortality to Geran.
I think we all know this. There are many examples. One important one is Garion's parents, especially his father, whom he avenged.
****** -1 pt for obvious stuff.
|>
|> The only thing that distinguishes Geran from the common descendents of
|> Riva is that he was the Child of Dark for a few minutes because Zandramas
|> chose him as her successor. Had Cyradis chosen him to be the all-powerful
|> Super-Torak Evil God of Angarak, obviously immortality would have been
|> conferred, but this did not happen. Unless Geran learns the Will and the
|> Word, his only claim to immortality is having been the Child of Dark.
But what was Garion's claim? He really didn't have anything at all. He was just a poor Sendarian farm boy, not even witnessed (knowingly, Pol had her eye on him) sorcery. I'm sure you'll turn and say that he was the child of light. Yes, but remember Belgarath yelling at Pol about how she was letting Garion mess with that chick on the farm (Z-something)? He was really fumed because he didn't want to wait another thousand years or something like that. What does this mean? Is it that there were others
before Garion? Is it saying that the children of light and dark meet again and again until it is finished? The answer to that was found in Cyradis and in Poledra, of course.
****** no points, I never stated he WOULD be, but that he COULD be. please read the questions more closely
|>
|> Of course, being the former Child of Dark is no light matter (pardon the
|> pun). However unwillingly, Geran was the focus of all of the Dark
|> Prophecy's power for a short time. We could grant that Geran might become
|> immortal due to this, but we must recognize that the reason is that he was
|> the CHILD OF DARK.
No we cannot grant that he could be immortal due to this. There is no precedent. He simply caught in the mixt of things.
******* -2 points
|>
|> No Child of Light (Poledra, Belgarion, Eriond) has yet been proven mortal,
|> just as no Child of Dark (Torak, Zandramas, Geran) has yet been shown to
|> die of natural causes. Zandramas is certainly immortal, for she and the
|> Sardion will spend eternity patching the rift in the Universe caused by
|> the distant Galaxy's explosion.
Very good points. Had not even thought of these.
******* +5 points
|>
|> Geran's resume is limited to the following:
|>
|> * Child of Dark Emeritus
|> * Crown Prince of Riva
|>
|> I happen to believe, however, that Geran will inherit the throne of Riva.
As do most of us. (believe, that is, not inherit the throne :) )
******* -1 point for stating the concensus
|>
|> Belgarion will step down, either when Geran is old enough to rule wisely,
|> or when Eriond, Child of Light, True God of Angarak, and Future God of the
|> World, is worshipped widely enough to cause UL, Aldur, Issa, Belar, Mara,
|> Nedra, and whoever else I forgot, to leave the World in Eriond's care and
|> move on to other regions of the Universe. Add to Geran's resume:
|>
|> * King of Riva
I think most of us agree here, save that someone was good enough to point out that UL is omnipotent and omnipresent.
******* +2 points to whomever that was
|>
|> The Accords of Vo Mibre, by which Belgarion was known at Erastide, might
|> not apply to Geran. Belgarion might keep the following provisions of the
|> Accords to himself:
|>
|> * Shall take a Tolnedran Imperial Princess to Wife
|> * Lord of the Western Sea
|> * Overlord of the West (If Geran Dies Without Leaving Heirs,
|> Belgarion can Use This Title to Retake the Throne of Riva
|> or Name a New King of Riva)
|>
|> Other titles exist which Belgarion cannot transfer to Geran anyway:
|>
|> * Godslayer
|> * Child of Light Emeritus
What does all the above have to do with anything? Titles have no substantial effect on their lives (arguably). They just make things easier to communicate, except when they garble and confuse.
******* -30 points to the writers of the prophecies for confusing everyone.
-10 points for myself for not remembering that they have to be garbled so not everyone understands
-5E30 points from Garion for taking so long to realize he had to read that prophecy using the light of the Orb, dumb-ass
|>
|> Since it has been mentioned that Zedar is still living, sealed up deep in
|> the earth under Cthol Mishrak, and can only be released by Belgarath,
|> allow me to argue that a very good chance exists for Zedar to be freed.
|>
|> Consider:
|>
|> * Beldin, who swore to put Zedar back in the earth if Belgarath ever
|> released Zedar, has departed this World, presumably forever, when
|> he flew off with Vella. His threat is no longer in force.
|> * Eriond, Child of Light, True God of Angarak, and Future God of the
|> World, has pity and compassion for <SIGH> "Poor Zedar...", and will
|> be totally free to act when the Other Gods Leave.
|> * Torak used the WILL OF A GOD to dominate Zedar and twist out all
|> the loyalty of Belzedar toward his old Master Aldur, turning him
|> into a Disciple of Evil, and forced him to commit terrible crimes,
|> with Zedar helpless to resist.
|> * Erion could likewise use the WILL OF A GOD to coerce Belgarath into
|> freeing Zedar, and could use the same WILL to restore Zedar's mind
|> to his pre-Torak state, allowing him to be reinstated as Belzedar,
|> Disciple of the True God of Angarak, a fine irony, considering
|> Eriond was the little boy he dragged around the world with him.
|> (Eriond was found by Zedar in an Angarak town, after all, so yes,
|> Eriond is, and has always been, an Angarak.)
Had not really considered this.
****** +25 points for good logic
One thing that most (There can only be one) people seem to miss was that I was just joking around when I said Geran might be immortal and we'd have lots of immortals. Through all this "discourse" no where have we considered "So what?" anybody can be immortal, i.e., practice sorcery. Look at Senji and that whole section more closely. He discovered it by accident, and, more importantly, never understood it, that is, until it was explained. He went on to see that his students may have caused their own d
estruction by the forbidden spell(?). The point is, IMHO, I think Geran, Child of Dark aside, has a very good chance of immortality. Don't you think he would learn it eventually? Look at Errand (Errand then). Being a God aside, he said something to the effect that he could not not know how it was done, just being around sorcerers all the time.
One other morsel for thought. To those who think that they would not practice sorcery any more after things were "fixed" look again at the end of the Belgariad. What was told to Pol after she realized that her sorcery had not been taken away?
Which brings a possible err in the Belgariad. Please flame on this one. Did the gods _give_ Durnik the art/talent/gift of sorcery or did they just _reveal_ its secrets. I hope it was the lattter. Belgarath's story of his first interaction with the Will and Aldur shows that it's not an inherent trait, but "just a natural way of doing things" (I think that's a misquote, but to the same effect, I hope).
Thank you for flying, please come again.
Uh, Jon, like, I'm not flaming you, just trying to make these things more fun. Wish more people would have thread follow-ups like this.
****** -10 points for myself for not correcting typos
****** -100 points for making this thing too *#$^($ long and wasting bandwith.
Jason Adler
<jp...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
> Was Garion's father brought up in Sendaria? Certainly he lived there for a
> while, but we really know nothing about his earlier life. I sort of like the
> idea that Polgara or Belgarath brought him to Riva when he was an infant to
> introduce him to the Orb. I think I remember reading something about this
> happening with all of Riva's descendants, but I can't remember just where I
> read it.
>
> I thought Eriond was just supposed to be the new God of Angarak--does it say
> he's supposed to be the God of the World? Granted, his being present while
> the others are all absent _does_ give him a bit of an advantage...
>
> and I really can't see Eriond imposing his will upon Belgarath to force him to
> release Zedar. It just seems to go contrary to his personality. Granted, he
> might try to _persuade_ Belgarath, but I don't think he'd force him.
>
> Sorry if all this seems like nitpicking--just a few questions/points that this
> discussion brought up.
Well, in response to your first question, whether or not Geran was brought
up in Sendaria, I doubt that he ever got near the orb. I say this because
of the "noise" that the orb makes when any of the heirs of Riva come near
to it. I think that Polgara and Belgarath kept all the sons of Riva from
the orb 1)to keep their existence a secret and 2)because they feared waking
Torak. As far as your other statements are concerned, I think that the
last book said that Eriond would indeed be God of the World...could be
wrong though. I totally agree with your opinion on Eriond's dealing with
Belgarath, though I do think he will try and _persuade_ Belgarath to the
max...
--Jason
Donal K. Fellows
>All the following is my own opinion and I take full responsibility for it. Read at your own risk. (just placing the generic disclaimer at the beginning, where it should be) (it's all tongue-in-cheek, people, geez).
>
{ping} Automatic Flame! Badly formatted. Please restrain your line
length to less than 80 columns. -30 points in an attempt to help you
to remember... :)
[All over-long lines are now reformatted...]
>
>In article <2i7k61$3...@mailer.fsu.edu>, jbr...@garnet.acns.fsu.edu (Jonathan R. Brater) writes:
>|>
>|> The only thing that distinguishes Geran from the common descendents of
>|> Riva is that he was the Child of Dark for a few minutes because Zandramas
>|> chose him as her successor. Had Cyradis chosen him to be the all-powerful
>|> Super-Torak Evil God of Angarak, obviously immortality would have been
>|> conferred, but this did not happen. Unless Geran learns the Will and the
>|> Word, his only claim to immortality is having been the Child of Dark.
>
> But what was Garion's claim? He really didn't have anything
>at all. He was just a poor Sendarian farm boy, not even witnessed
>(knowingly, Pol had her eye on him) sorcery. I'm sure you'll turn and
>say that he was the child of light. Yes, but remember Belgarath
>yelling at Pol about how she was letting Garion mess with that chick
>on the farm (Z-something)? He was really fumed because he didn't want
>to wait another thousand years or something like that. What does this
>mean? Is it that there were before Garion? Is it saying that the
>children of light and dark meet again and again until it is finished?
>The answer to that was found in Cyradis and in Poledra, of course.
>
-3 points for inaccuracy. Belgarath was the amused party when told by
Polgara about Garion's growwing entanglement (can't think of a more
suitable word to express what I mean) with Zubrette. It was Polgara
who was angry.
>|>
>|> No Child of Light (Poledra, Belgarion, Eriond) has yet been proven mortal,
>|> just as no Child of Dark (Torak, Zandramas, Geran) has yet been shown to
>|> die of natural causes. Zandramas is certainly immortal, for she and the
>|> Sardion will spend eternity patching the rift in the Universe caused by
>|> the distant Galaxy's explosion.
>
I think that Riva was the Child of Light for a while (or at least, if
he wasn't then who was it, since there was a confrontation between the
Light and the Dark in (or near) Cthol Mishrak during the recovery of
the Orb. Riva is dead, and probably died of old age (I don't know
anything to the contrary)
> I think most of us agree here, save that someone was good enough to
>point out that UL is omnipotent and omnipresent.
>******* +2 points to whomever that was
Thank you very much! :) +20 points for flattery!
[ Various titles deleted ]
> What does all the above have to do with anything? Titles have no
> substantial effect on their lives (arguably). They just make things
> easier to communicate, except when they garble and confuse.
>******* -30 points to the writers of the prophecies for confusing everyone.
> -10 points for myself for not remembering that they have to be
> garbled so not everyone understands
> -5E30 points from Garion for taking so long to realize he had
> to read that prophecy using the light of the Orb, dumb-ass
>
+5 points for sheer amusement value! :)
>|>
>|> Since it has been mentioned that Zedar is still living, sealed up deep in
>|> the earth under Cthol Mishrak, and can only be released by Belgarath,
>|> allow me to argue that a very good chance exists for Zedar to be freed.
>|>
>|> Consider:
>|>
>|> * Beldin, who swore to put Zedar back in the earth if Belgarath ever
>|> released Zedar, has departed this World, presumably forever, when
>|> he flew off with Vella. His threat is no longer in force.
>|> * Eriond, Child of Light, True God of Angarak, and Future God of the
>|> World, has pity and compassion for <SIGH> "Poor Zedar...", and will
>|> be totally free to act when the Other Gods Leave.
>|> * Torak used the WILL OF A GOD to dominate Zedar and twist out all
>|> the loyalty of Belzedar toward his old Master Aldur, turning him
>|> into a Disciple of Evil, and forced him to commit terrible crimes,
>|> with Zedar helpless to resist.
>|> * Erion could likewise use the WILL OF A GOD to coerce Belgarath into
>|> freeing Zedar, and could use the same WILL to restore Zedar's mind
>|> to his pre-Torak state, allowing him to be reinstated as Belzedar,
>|> Disciple of the True God of Angarak, a fine irony, considering
>|> Eriond was the little boy he dragged around the world with him.
>|> (Eriond was found by Zedar in an Angarak town, after all, so yes,
>|> Eriond is, and has always been, an Angarak.)
>
I thought that Zedar said that he didn't know which city it was, and
that during the years before he found Errand/Eriond, he `crossed and
criss-crossed the East and the West' (the book says this, or at least
something very similar. Blame my terrible memory for errors... :)
> One thing that most (There can only be one) people seem to miss was
>that I was just joking around when I said Geran might be immortal and
>we'd have lots of immortals. Through all this "discourse" no where
>have we considered "So what?" anybody can be immortal, i.e., practice
>sorcery. Look at Senji and that whole section more closely. He
>discovered it by accident, and, more importantly, never understood it,
>that is, until it was explained. He went on to see that his students
>may have caused their destruction by the forbidden spell(?). The
>point is, IMHO, I think Geran, Child of Dark aside, has a very good
>chance of immortality. Don't you think he would learn it eventually?
>Look at Errand (Errand then). Being a God aside, he said something to
>the effect that he could not not know how it was done, just being
>around sorcerers all the time.
>
The thing is, how old will he be when he learns it? He'll need to
figure it out before old age catches up with him. Valid point though.
+2 points.
> One other morsel for thought. To those who think that they would
>not practice sorcery any more after things were "fixed" look again at
>the end of the Belgariad. What was told to Pol after she realized
>that her sorcery had not been taken away?
_Very_ good reference. +10 points. I would not have thought of that
one, but it is a very good choice. And anyway, who says that the new
purpose of the universe doesn't have something in mind for them? They
might very well still be needed...
> Which brings a possible err in the Belgariad. Please flame on this
>one. Did the gods _give_ Durnik the art/talent/gift of sorcery or did
>they just _reveal_ its secrets. I hope it was the latter.
>Belgarath's story of his first interaction with the Will and Aldur
>shows that it's not an inherent trait, but "just a natural way of
>doing things" (I think that's a misquote, but to the same effect, I
>hope).
>
Nice point. I think I prefer that. +2 points.
>Thank you for flying, please come again.
>
Sure. Just don't always serve huge quantities of salmon. Airline
salmon gets boring after the 3rd time in 24 hours... :)
> Uh, Jon, like, I'm not flaming you, just trying to make these things
>more fun. Wish more people would have thread follow-ups like this.
>
And I wish more people would format their posts correctly! I'm not
objecting to you, and a lot of your ideas are good, but lines over 80
columns long are a pet hate of mine, (but what you did is not nearly
as irritating as someone who consistently uses lines 85 characters
long, because they are a complete pain to reformat! :)
>****** -10 points for myself for not correcting typos
That's OK. Typos are usual! :)
>****** -100 points for making this thing too *#$^($ long and wasting bandwith.
Ditto to me! :)
Total: +4 points.
Donal.
--
Donal K. Fellows, | dk...@cus.cam.ac.uk | See the Cambridge University
Churchill College, | dk...@phx.cam.ac.uk | Computer Society's directory
Cambridge, CB3 0DS, | dk...@hermes.cam.ac.uk | on gopher.cam.ac.uk:70
United Kingdom. | (dk...@cl.cam.ac.uk) | (Out of date, though! :)
Jonathan R. Brater
ran into Eriond. My books are 5 hours away at my house, whereas I'm at
college, so I can't check what Zedar said, but I'm sure it's very easy for
someone to check, and quote Zedar here word for word.
I'd prefer to think Eriond was found by Zedar in an Angarak town. A blond
Angarak, though? Hmm... Nevertheless, he's their God now, so he's got to
have some claim. After all, before the rift in the Universe was caused,
Eriond was intended to be God of Angarak from the beginning. Torak was an
aberration caused by the rift.
Torak, before his face was maimed by the Orb, may have been described as
blond himself. Two blond Angarak Gods? Blows away my image of
dark-haired Angaraks.
Jon
Jonathan R. Brater
If Eddings ever writes something to that effect, I would not be surprised,
but until that time, I must be skeptical.
One might as well argue that Brand, who had the Orb set in his Shield, was
the Child of Light when he faced Torak at the Battle of Vo Mibre.
Nevertheless, we know that it is Poledra who was the Child of Light.
Riva and Brand are fighter-types, not Sorcerors, Gods, or Candidates for God
(in Geran/Eriond's cases). Fighter-types have not yet been established as
eligible for Childishness <GRIN>.
Of course, how did Riva know he was the innocent one who could carry the Orb?
If he were the Child of Light, the Prophecy would have said, "Go ahead,
pick it up!"
By the way, I am in the camp of Sorcery-Immortality-Forever, Gods present
or not, if someone's counting votes.
As for Eriond *not* forcing Belgarath to release Zedar, I understand the logic
people are mentioning, but Belgarath is not infallible. He's been
overruled by the Prophecy of Light several times, usually through Garion.
Now, the Prophecy of Light is with Eriond, and the Prophecy can overrule
Belgarath through Eriond, if the Prophecy forgives Zedar.
Jon
Ron A. Olshavsky
: Eriond was the little boy he dragged around the world with him.
: (Eriond was found by Zedar in an Angarak town, after all, so yes,
: Eriond is, and has always been, an Angarak.)
Zedar never said where he found Eriond, or was found by him, he couldnt
remember and said it could have been anywhere...
'Where did you find him?' Aunt Pol asked. 'We've never been able to pin
down what country he's from.'
'I forgot precisely,' Zedar answered..'Perhaps it was Camaar ot Tol
Honeth - or maybe some city on the other side of Mallorea. The details
keep slipping away from me - almost as if I werent supposed to examine
them too closely.'
We still dont know what town Zedar found Eriond, or was found by him...:)
Ron
--
,,,
(o o)
+------------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo--------------------------------+
| | It's a Mr. Death or something, |
| Ron A. Olshavsky - ro...@netcom.com | He's come about the reaping? |
| | I dont think we need any... MP:MOL |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
<My opinions are my own...Who else would want them...>
Jonathan R. Brater
Well, it certainly is possible for Eriond to be Angarak, but how an
Angarak child might get to Tol Honeth or Camaar would be quite a feat.
Jon
Jonathan R. Brater
Jon
Andyman
|> In article <ronoCKG...@netcom.com>, ro...@netcom.com (Ron A. Olshavsky) writes:
|> |> Jonathan R. Brater (jbr...@garnet.acns.fsu.edu) wrote:
|> |> : Eriond was the little boy he dragged around the world with him.
|> |> : (Eriond was found by Zedar in an Angarak town, after all, so yes,
|> |> : Eriond is, and has always been, an Angarak.)
|> |>
|> |> Zedar never said where he found Eriond, or was found by him, he couldnt
|> |> remember and said it could have been anywhere...
|>
|> Zandramas's son, just as Geran was the son of the Child of Light.
|> It did not turn out to be, though. Still, I thought this would have
|> added a nice bit of pathos at the end. The Belgariad was successful
|> in conveying the way people's lives and choices were sacrificed to
|> the demands of history and the Prophecies. The Mallorean less so.
|> I thought Eddings could have made something of Zandramas's conflicting
|> emotions at the final encounter... for instance, she may have felt
|> it was necessary to kill Eriond rather than lose, just as Belgarion
|> was supposed to kill his own son rather than lose.
|>
|> You can take this idea further. Perhaps Zandramas's willingness
|> to kill her son to win, and Belgarion's refusal to kill his, could have been
|> a basis for the Seer's decision... (IMHO, it would have seemed less arbitrary
|> than what Eddings came up with...)
|>
|> Anyway, Eriond's origin was never revealed (I suppose my explanation
|> wasn't really ruled out, though.)
Eriond's origin...good question. I don't doubt it has been
discussed earlier, but it seems it would be hard to give him a simple
carnal beginning. He IS a god afterall. You might as well ask where
did Belar come from. I think the answer is UL, but I'm not sure. To
throw out a possibility for speculation, he came from the prophecy. He
doesn't need a physical birth, didn't he suddenly transform himself to
older age at the end of the Mallorean? (Donal help me out here).
On making Eriond Zandramas' son, to me it would be too cute.
Besides, I doubt Zandramas would have any conflicting emotions when it
comes to getting power.
Andy
|>
|> Matt
|>
Jonathan R. Brater
Ce'Nedra, would have remained a child had Cyradis picked him to be the
Evil Super-Torak God of Angarak?
As Gods are ageless, they automatically assume their "true" adult form,
neither young nor old. This need have nothing to do with their origin,
whether the Universe was their direct mother and UL the direct father, or
whether the God-to-Be was born of human parentage.
Jon
Matthew T Diamond
|> : Eriond was the little boy he dragged around the world with him.
|> : (Eriond was found by Zedar in an Angarak town, after all, so yes,
|> : Eriond is, and has always been, an Angarak.)
|>
|> Zedar never said where he found Eriond, or was found by him, he couldnt
|> remember and said it could have been anywhere...
As I read the Mallorean, early on I guessed that maybe Eriond was
Zandramas's son, just as Geran was the son of the Child of Light.
It did not turn out to be, though. Still, I thought this would have
added a nice bit of pathos at the end. The Belgariad was successful
in conveying the way people's lives and choices were sacrificed to
the demands of history and the Prophecies. The Mallorean less so.
I thought Eddings could have made something of Zandramas's conflicting
emotions at the final encounter... for instance, she may have felt
it was necessary to kill Eriond rather than lose, just as Belgarion
was supposed to kill his own son rather than lose.
You can take this idea further. Perhaps Zandramas's willingness
to kill her son to win, and Belgarion's refusal to kill his, could have been
a basis for the Seer's decision... (IMHO, it would have seemed less arbitrary
than what Eddings came up with...)
Anyway, Eriond's origin was never revealed (I suppose my explanation
wasn't really ruled out, though.)
Matt
Connie Cho
Angarak. I hope he wasn't born of Angarak parents, or we have
Danae all over again! (Styric looking, born of Elenes)
He was probably just formed at the time of the accident, when
the Prophecy was derailed. Hence he wandered, immature, until
it was time for him to find Zedar.
Donal K. Fellows
> Eriond's origin...good question. I don't doubt it has been
>discussed earlier, but it seems it would be hard to give him a simple
>carnal beginning. He IS a god afterall. You might as well ask where
>did Belar come from. I think the answer is UL, but I'm not sure. To
>throw out a possibility for speculation, he came from the prophecy. He
>doesn't need a physical birth, didn't he suddenly transform himself to
>older age at the end of the Mallorean? (Donal help me out here).
Hmm. I always thought that Eriond was born in the usual fashion. He
was a son of UL in a spiritual fashion (as I imagine all the Gods are,
but that is _pure_ speculation), but I don't think physically (only in
as much as everyone else is!) It was the Choice that made him into a
God, though he was aware of his potential (I think He tells Garion
this when they are talking shortly after the Choice)
It does however state that the Gods can be any age They wish to be,
and as such, Eriond could change his own age (or at least, what age he
appears to be. Let's not get into another discussion like that on
immortality), and indeed He does so, since before the Choice he was a
young man approaching 20, and after He appeared older in a sort of
ageless fashion. (Or something like that. It's 20 minutes walk through
the rain to my room today... <sigh>)
> On making Eriond Zandramas' son, to me it would be too cute.
>Besides, I doubt Zandramas would have any conflicting emotions when it
>comes to getting power.
>
I agree. Zandramas had no scruples whatsoever (I'm not so sure about
the Dark though. I would be very interested in finding more about what
the other side thought and did, and especially their reasons)
Jonathan R. Brater
exist, and there might be more to Geran than meets the eye... But another
kind of symmetry (Zandramas mothering Eriond, Belgarion fathering Geran)
was rejected as too cute. Ahh well, sounds like the debate on Eriond's origin
might be winding down. Then again, maybe it'll stick with us until Eddings
gives us his answer.
Jon
es6...@albnyvms.bitnet
>Poor Andy... Donal won't support the view that Eriond was "created". Ahh
>well, eventually Donal and I will disagree on something more major than
>whether Riva was probably a Child of Light, I'm sure.
>
>Something I forgot to mention in my response to Connie Cho: Throughout the
>Belgariad and Malloreon, Eriond aged normally, until he in fact became a God
>and chose his own age. No basis exists for saying Eriond wandered around in
>child form since the World was created. If so, he would have known the
>location of The Place Which Is No More, having been around before "Korim"
>was changed to "Turim".
>
>Jon
>
You are both missing it. It is clearly state, though I don't remember
where not having the books, that Eriond was always there in spirit since the
accident. He began to move around the world when Garion was born I think it
said. Just wanted to clear that up.
-- Eric --
Donal K. Fellows
>And besides, who would be the father? Zandramas didn't strike me as
>especially sexual. In fact, I think Zandi (my nickname) would more likely
>transform into a dragon and eat any perspective lovers. Just a thought...
>
Ah, but what about before the meeting in Cthol Mishrak? We are
reliably informed that Zandramas was sexually active before she became
the Child of Dark.
I actually discount the possibility that Zandramas could be the mother
of Eriond simply because Zandramas is really too young. She just
wasn't old enough at the time that Eriond was born. (a general
impression picked up from small comments made over several books, and
therefore quite possibly wrong :)
Adam Costello
>Poor Andy... Donal won't support the view that Eriond was "created". Ahh
>well, eventually Donal and I will disagree on something more major than
>whether Riva was probably a Child of Light, I'm sure.
>
>Something I forgot to mention in my response to Connie Cho: Throughout the
>Belgariad and Malloreon, Eriond aged normally, until he in fact became a God
>and chose his own age. No basis exists for saying Eriond wandered around in
>child form since the World was created. If so, he would have known the
>location of The Place Which Is No More, having been around before "Korim"
>was changed to "Turim".
>
>Jon
>
This does not mean that Eriond would have known that. Potentially, Eriond
was born or created, then wandered about as a 4 year old for a few millenia.
Would a four year old know about some obscure mountains somewhere? I doubt it.
It was not until the real signifigant part of his life began that he started
to age. I believe that somewhere in one of the books Belgarath or Beldin said
that he probably was born long ago and wandered the world as a 4 year old....
>>>> >>>> >>>> Thespian Troupe #365
>>>> > > >> M.E.R.P. player supreme
> >>>> >>>> Um.......that all? Shoot...
es6...@albnyvms.bitnet
clearly answered. In one of the books, I don't remember which as I don't have
my books up here, it is clearly stated, that Eriond, was present in 'spirit'
since the time of the accident, but didn't begin to 'move around the world'
until the birth of Garion. I believe this was in the end of the last book of
the Malloreon for those that want to look it up themselves.
> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thespian Troupe #365
> >>>> > > >> M.E.R.P. player supreme
> > >>>> >>>> Um.......that all? Shoot...
Sorry folks, I just felt I should clear that up.
Eric
GEORGE
I seem to recall that, in the _Seeress of Kell_, it is mentioned that
Eriond came in to being at the same time Garion was born and thus was exactly
the same age as he. As to his origins, he may have been created in the same
fashion as all the other Gods (save UL), he was the creation of UL and the
Universe (who is female according to the books).
Thomas C. George
Amherst College
Class of 1997
Connie Cho
since there are parallels in this world of ours :), except
that I simply cannot see such a fair, blue eyed child being accepted
by the neighbors or family of the couple in question. It simply
isn't realistic, if I may use that term. Remember, this is in an
Angarak city, where the local priest is always scouting for a fresh
chest to split. I see a lot of very discouraging scenarios upon
Eriond's birth:
1) Pop accuses Ma of infidelity with a Western dog, dispatches Ma and
baby.
2) Pop is startled, but family are outraged and kill the mom/baby
in order to avert any disaster (i.e. Grolim visitation)
2) Everyone loves the baby and tries to hide it, but some neighbor,
for some reason (spite, fear, revenge) finks to the Grolims. End
of family!
(Whoops, that should have been 3) above)
The only way IMHO that Erions could have survived would have been
with a lot of divine intervention, and somehow I wonder if the Gods
would have interfered so much on another's turf.
Besides, I think Eriond mentions that he wandered for a long time;
I believe he did not actually start to visibly grow older until
Garion touched the Orb, since he remained 5 yrs old or whatever
for all the years that Zedar knew him.
Jonathan R. Brater
Spiritual parents, but that the human body of Eriond was probably born of
Physical human parents.
Jon
Jonathan R. Brater
amusing viewpoint.
I'd probably better ask somebody, since I've only been on the newsgroups
for about a month or so...
"IMHO" = "?"
Jon
Tony Kerr
but RTFM???
Em.
__
Emily Kerr
Alexander Biller
writes:
RTFM means Read The F.. err, Friendly Manual. It's a standard reply to
silly questions.
Alex albi...@w350zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de
Jonathan R. Brater
Jon
R. Dan Johnson
IMHO == "In My Honest (or Humble) Opinion"
IMNSHO== " In My Not So Humble Opinion" :)
RTFM == " Read The Fucking Manual"
Usually saved for annoying students who never get the
questions right and keep asking stupid questions :)
How's that? TTFN!! (Ta Ta For now) :)
-Dan
--
***************************************************************
* fl...@ac.dal.ca * REALITY is for *
* rjoh...@ug.cs.dal.ca * people who lack *
* djoh...@moon.sba.dal.ca * IMAGINATION!!! *
Donal K. Fellows
Exactly! Precisely!
(and sorry for not postinf earlier, but I've been working the past
couple of days. Strange, isn't it? :)
Donal K. Fellows
>In article <760812...@kparade.demon.co.uk> tony...@kparade.demon.co.uk writes:
>>IMHO means " In My Humble Opinion"- at least I think so.
>>but RTFM???
>>
>
>IMNSHO== " In My Not So Humble Opinion" :)
>RTFM == " Read The Fucking Manual"
> Usually saved for annoying students who never get the
>questions right and keep asking stupid questions :)
>
>How's that? TTFN!! (Ta Ta For now) :)
>
Ok. Now for some obscure ones.
TTFF (notice the wierd final letter)
OGSYHUADBB (insulting, and highly amusing :)
IRMTA
IRMTBP
SNB (Obscure. Will probably need to give hints on this one for
non-Cambridge people...)
TLA
ETLA
GNU (think about this one!)
BALGE
FUBAR
and finally...
IRMTMYWWTASF
sl...@cc.usu.edu
B.R. MARTIN
> What about SMTWHFS?
What? Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday H Friday Saturday? It's the only
thing that spring to my mind.
- beth