Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss

Alternate Butlerian Jihad

124 views
Skip to first unread message

Ty Beard

unread,
Jan 21, 2001, 9:41:27 AM1/21/01
to
Dr. McNelly (author of the Dune Encyclopedia for the newbies) asked me to
post the following message regarding an earlier attempt to produce a novel
on the Butlerian Jihad:

In the light of recent talk about prequels to Dune based on the Butlerian
Jihad, Dune fans might be interested in knowing that this concept of
writing a novel or novels about the BJ is not new. Rather, it is an idea I
originated about a year before FH's death. I conceived of a prequel called
"Prologue to Dune: the Butlerian Jihad." Its basic structure and plot
outline would be the extensive material on the BJ contained in the Dune
Encyclopedia. I discussed the idea with Frank on the phone at some length
- and suggested that he and I might collaborate on the novel. He thought it
was a good idea and also suggested that I draft a general outline and send
it to him. After all, collaboration was something that he had done before.

I then proceeded to develop an extensive outline, including a rich panoply
of characters, some quite unusual methods of handling the narrative, plot
twists and so on. I wrote a suggested first chapter, about 2000 words long
and then mailed all this material to him, but his tragic final illness kept
him from answering.

A year or so after his death I proposed the idea to Berkley suggesting that
I write this prologue myself, but received no answer. They might have been
concerned with copyright problems or my alleged inexperience in writing
professional fiction.

A bit later, I sent all of the material to Brian Herbert, with whom I was
on professional terms although we had never met. Because he had once
praised The Dune Encyclopedia in a personal letter to me written in the
fall of 1990, calling it a "masterpiece," I suggested that he and I
collaborate on my proposed prequel about the Butlerian Jihad to be derived
from that work. Unfortunately he also did not reply.

As a consequence, I never went any further with my idea other than the
outline and the first chapter. Only a very few persons have ever read that
chapter, and I do not intend to post either it or my detailed outline, cast
of characters, proposed methods of story telling, and so on. However, the
very few who have read the material have all praised the concept as well as
the chapter itself.

Another reason I did not proceed was the question of primary and secondary
copyright. While FH had created the idea of the latter day Luddite
rebellion which he called "The Butlerian Jihad," and incorporated at least
the idea of the anti-machine destruction which swept the Dune universe
while giving virtually no details of what had happened, my writers and I
created every notion about the specifics of that anti-machine galactic wide
orgy of destruction which are found in the DE. For example, conceiving of
my heroine as if she were a reincarnated Joan of Arc, I named her "Jehanne"
Butler, and in a very thinly disguised bit of word play, I gave her husband
the name "Thet'r," an obvious anagram of "Rhett" Butler. Everything in
the DE concerning the Butlerian Jihad follows from that concept, and hence,
I suppose I could be said to "own" it. But that is a legal question and I
am not an attorney.

Parenthetically, I have an extensive paper trail concerning all of this
material save for the phone calls.

To be sure, FH might have had some other Butler in mind when he created the
idea in the first place, but he never mentioned it to me, and he had ample
opportunity when we discussed the possible collaboration. We also
discussed, albeit briefly, the posibility of collaborating on an interim
novel about the oxygen catastrophe which overtook Arrakis when its primary
source of oxygen, the sand worms, began to shrink in number. But we both
recalled that Edgar Rice Burroughs had written about a similar planetary
wide oxygen deprivation in one of his early Mars books, so we went no
further than that, although I did refer to it in my 1983 Memoriam to him
which has been widely circulated on various sites.

I have asked that this be posted so that the true Dune fans on the a.f.d.
line will be made aware of an alternate Dune reality.

Dr. Willis E. McNelly


Michael Taylor

unread,
Jan 21, 2001, 10:45:29 AM1/21/01
to
If only Dr. McNelly had the copyright to write the stories...

Ho hum.

"Ty Beard" <tbe...@tyler.net> wrote in message
news:t6lu7g5...@corp.supernews.com...

Scott Briggs

unread,
Jan 21, 2001, 1:50:54 PM1/21/01
to
I betcha a lot of folks have, even for fun, tried their hand at
penning a Dune prequel concerning the Butlerian Jihad era.
I myself drafted a first chapter of such a book around 1986,
while in college, inspired by reading through Heretics of Dune
and Chapterhouse: Dune around the same time. I don't have
the first chapter any longer, otherwise I'd post it here for fun.
I showed the opening chapter to a few folks and the reaction was
quite positive, though now I'd probably cringe at my attempt to "imitate"
Frank Herbert's style, which is very difficult to do convincingly.
It taught me that really the man himself was the only person that
should do such a book, I don't really trust anyone else messing
with the Dune Universe...
And now witness the lukewarm reaction to the two Brian Herbert
volumes. I haven't read them yet myself but from what I've heard,
they might prove the above point too well.

Scott Briggs,
NYC


Michael Taylor wrote in message ...

Philip Langdale

unread,
Jan 21, 2001, 2:42:32 PM1/21/01
to
On Sun, 21 Jan 2001 08:41:27 -0600, Ty Beard <tbe...@tyler.net> wrote:
>
<SNIP Message from Dr. McNeally re: his BJ novel idea>
>

I'd be interested to see how much shows up in the dubious duo's trilogy.
Perhaps they confused the notes from Dr. McNeally with notes written by
FH.

And I'd note the reference to the BJ as a luddite rebellion in his msg.
( I note it because I've wondered about that before ) That always struck
me as an interesting spin on the BJ. What if there really wasn't much
of a problem with computers and machines at the time. But you have a few
kooks with a chip on their shoulder and this time they win ( as opposed
to the original luddites ). I'd really like to see how that pans out.

The dubious duo have made it very clear that they envisage a terminator
style doomsday scenario which is *ahem* not very creative IMHO, but that
shouldn't surprise us much.

--phil

Michael Taylor

unread,
Jan 21, 2001, 3:47:56 PM1/21/01
to
Hi Scott,

Personally I don't think the exact style of the writer matters, it's the way
he/she puts the message across that really counts.

After reading through the Dune Encyclopedia, I feel that Dr. McNelly really
was on the same wavelength as Frank Herbert, and that they had obviously
discussed many things together. While he might not use Frank Herbert's style
of writing (and doesn't even try to), he none the less adds all the twists
and intricacies in the Encyclopedia entries that really capture the essence
of the books.

Contrast this with BH and KJA, who do NOT seem to capture the same essence
of the universe as FH (IMHO at least) - this is why they fail for me. The
fact that their chosen writing style feels like something from a Children's
story is largely irrelevant.

Case in point - ever read the Hobbit? If that is the same style of writing
as LotR then I must have read the wrong book! ;-)

Yet both styles of writing manage to capture the same essence of Middle
Earth.

Cheers,

Michael Taylor

"Scott Briggs" <Scott....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:icGa6.3738$7b2.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

Richard

unread,
Jan 21, 2001, 10:00:25 PM1/21/01
to
Ty Beard <tbe...@tyler.net> wrote in article
<t6lu7g5...@corp.supernews.com>...

> Dr. McNelly (author of the Dune Encyclopedia for the newbies) asked me to
> post the following message regarding an earlier attempt to produce a
novel
> on the Butlerian Jihad:
>snip<

Now this is just a damn shame.

--
Yrs,
Richard

"Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy."
-H.L. Mencken

Richard

unread,
Jan 21, 2001, 10:04:07 PM1/21/01
to
Scott Briggs <Scott....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<icGa6.3738$7b2.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

> And now witness the lukewarm reaction to the two Brian Herbert
> volumes. I haven't read them yet myself but from what I've heard,
> they might prove the above point too well.
>
> Scott Briggs,
> NYC

I don't really see it that way. What I've read of the two prequels, they
are complete pieces of crap. However, that doesn't discount the
possibility that a good author could have come forward and done a good job,
or may still. Perhaps the dynamic duo might realize that they aren't up to
it and bring some who is capable in to finish up.

--
Yrs,
Richard

"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5
years there'd be a shortage of sand."
-Milton Friedman

Richard

unread,
Jan 21, 2001, 10:05:44 PM1/21/01
to
Michael Taylor <mta...@miridor.com> wrote in article
<%VHa6.9864$vH6.1...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>...

> Case in point - ever read the Hobbit? If that is the same style of
writing
> as LotR then I must have read the wrong book! ;-)
>
> Yet both styles of writing manage to capture the same essence of Middle
> Earth.

Good comparison. It illustrates the point that others have been trying to
make here perfectly.


--
Yrs,
Richard

"God said 'let there be light' and they watered down the beer."
-Unknown

Nick Cassimatis

unread,
Jan 22, 2001, 1:12:26 PM1/22/01
to
I've often wondered why BH and KJA don't have Dr. McNelly and, say, Bill
Ransom (Co-author of the Avata series) working with them, to help with the
styles and storylines, to try to make them more FH-like. Since FH's death,
I always kind of hoped that Dr. McNelly and Bill Ransom were going to write
Dune7. Maybe they can be brought into the fold...

--

Nick Cassimatis

It's just my opinion, but it's right!
"Richard" <rar...@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote in message
news:01c0841f$d52b2100$e46e8bd1@magdaara...

Michael Taylor

unread,
Jan 22, 2001, 2:46:25 PM1/22/01
to
Personally I think it's just politics...

Brian desperately wanted to write the books AND get the credit for it
(something he probably wouldn't have got working with Dr. McNelly), but he
didn't have the necessary skill, so he called someone else in to help. He
chose someone like KJA because he'd have no arguments over plot lines or
character development, and KJA (whether he can write or not) is a fairly
successful author, in a commercial, sell out kind of way.

I have a feeling that Dr. McNelly would have been far more likely to say
"that's crap, I won't put my name to it" - the kind of uncompromising,
academic, do it the right way or not at all kind of attitude. KJA has no
such qualms, as long as his commercial interests are served.

Case in point - is it just me or should George Lucas back off and let
someone else write/direct the new Star Wars films? It's certainly beyond
him.

It's all pride, politics and money... bah!

That's my take on it anyway.

Cheers,

Michael Taylor

"Nick Cassimatis" <nic...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eK_a6.29099$YQ.54...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...

ArsenicMan

unread,
Jan 23, 2001, 5:08:54 PM1/23/01
to
"Michael Taylor" <mta...@miridor.com> wrote in message
news:j60b6.12617$vH6.2...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...

> Personally I think it's just politics...
>
> Brian desperately wanted to write the books AND get the credit for it
> (something he probably wouldn't have got working with Dr. McNelly), but he
> didn't have the necessary skill, so he called someone else in to help. He
> chose someone like KJA because he'd have no arguments over plot lines or
> character development, and KJA (whether he can write or not) is a fairly
> successful author, in a commercial, sell out kind of way.

I'm surprised that LFL hasn't asked him back to write more SW books - they
could sure use the sales.

> I have a feeling that Dr. McNelly would have been far more likely to say
> "that's crap, I won't put my name to it" - the kind of uncompromising,
> academic, do it the right way or not at all kind of attitude. KJA has no
> such qualms, as long as his commercial interests are served.

How about we have Dr. McNelly write Dune 7, change all of the names to get
it published, and give us a text file of the book with a decoder sheet?

> Case in point - is it just me or should George Lucas back off and let
> someone else write/direct the new Star Wars films? It's certainly beyond
> him.

He's as much as admitted it in the writing sense - about a year ago he hired
Jonathan Hale to help him write the script for Episode II.

Andrew Timson
========================================
It's our last best hope for peace? We're *so* screwed.

Ty Beard

unread,
Jan 23, 2001, 5:33:19 PM1/23/01
to
I think that the Alternate Butlerian Jihad, as proposed by Dr. McNelly would
have been superior to what BH & KJA are likely to produce. My reasons:

1. Dr. McNelly has demonstrated that he has a much better grasp of the
subtleties of the Dune universe. Compare the DE and HA or HH and you'll see
what I mean.

2. Based on my acquaintance with Dr. McNelly, I think he would have felt a
much greater obligation to remain truthful to FH's conception of the Dune
universe than BH apparently has.

3. Assuming the HA/HH "dumbing down" of the Dune universe isn't intentional,
one must conclude that Dr. McNelly simply possesses greater insight than
BH/KJA. This feeling becomes particularly strong if one considers the
Terminator scenario that's supposedly being considered by BH/KJA.

4. The DE -- though written by numerous people -- is better written in my
opinion than HA and HH. I've also read other shorter writings by Dr. McNelly
and they show the same competency. Therefore, I'd have to conclude that Dr.
McNelly is a better writer -- by the standards by which I judge writing --
than BH and KJA.

5. I don't think that Dr. McNelly would voluntarily reduce a Dune work to
the level of Star Wars juvenile fiction.

--Ty Beard


Tony

unread,
Jan 23, 2001, 10:57:07 PM1/23/01
to

"Ty Beard" <tbe...@tyler.net> wrote in message
news:t6lu7g5...@corp.supernews.com...

<snip>

> As a consequence, I never went any further with my idea other than the
> outline and the first chapter. Only a very few persons have ever read that
> chapter, and I do not intend to post either it or my detailed outline, cast
> of characters, proposed methods of story telling, and so on. However, the
> very few who have read the material have all praised the concept as well as
> the chapter itself.
>
> Another reason I did not proceed was the question of primary and secondary
> copyright. While FH had created the idea of the latter day Luddite
> rebellion which he called "The Butlerian Jihad," and incorporated at least
> the idea of the anti-machine destruction which swept the Dune universe
> while giving virtually no details of what had happened, my writers and I
> created every notion about the specifics of that anti-machine galactic wide
> orgy of destruction which are found in the DE. For example, conceiving of
> my heroine as if she were a reincarnated Joan of Arc, I named her "Jehanne"
> Butler, and in a very thinly disguised bit of word play, I gave her husband
> the name "Thet'r," an obvious anagram of "Rhett" Butler. Everything in
> the DE concerning the Butlerian Jihad follows from that concept, and hence,
> I suppose I could be said to "own" it. But that is a legal question and I
> am not an attorney.
>

I hope this work will survive in some form, perhaps as part of a university
collection (at least). It has historical significance, and as an expansion of the
material in the Dune Encyclopedia it holds great interest to Dune Fans. I have
considered the similarities between Paul and Joan of Arc. For example, the sense of
religious contagion contained in the recent movie The Messenger set my hair on end.
While Paul had prescience, Joan had passion.


John Kenny

unread,
Jan 23, 2001, 9:44:31 PM1/23/01
to
Ty and gang,

Comments mingles below.

"Ty Beard" <tbe...@tyler.net> wrote in message

news:t6s27u9...@corp.supernews.com...


> I think that the Alternate Butlerian Jihad, as proposed by Dr. McNelly
would
> have been superior to what BH & KJA are likely to produce. My reasons:
>
> 1. Dr. McNelly has demonstrated that he has a much better grasp of the
> subtleties of the Dune universe. Compare the DE and HA or HH and you'll
see
> what I mean.

My dogs have a better understanding of the Duniverse than you-know-who.

>
> 2. Based on my acquaintance with Dr. McNelly, I think he would have felt a
> much greater obligation to remain truthful to FH's conception of the Dune
> universe than BH apparently has.

Ty, I think the better word is "respect" for a truly remarkable achievement.

>
> 3. Assuming the HA/HH "dumbing down" of the Dune universe isn't
intentional,
> one must conclude that Dr. McNelly simply possesses greater insight than
> BH/KJA. This feeling becomes particularly strong if one considers the
> Terminator scenario that's supposedly being considered by BH/KJA.

What? Did I miss something?

Dear god. Are we going to have Duncan say, just before death defending Paul
and Jessica, "I'll be back"? Will gholas have red eyes in the DM mini
series? Will Duncan get a chance to wear one of those really cool pink
plumes from HH?

Excuse me, I need to vomit.

>
> 4. The DE -- though written by numerous people -- is better written in my
> opinion than HA and HH. I've also read other shorter writings by Dr.
McNelly
> and they show the same competency. Therefore, I'd have to conclude that
Dr.
> McNelly is a better writer -- by the standards by which I judge writing --
> than BH and KJA.

While Willis' writing can be a bit tedious at times (something I chalk up to
being a life-long scholar) his left foot could write a better BJ prequel
than the officious rascals trying to live in the shadow of Frank.

>
> 5. I don't think that Dr. McNelly would voluntarily reduce a Dune work to
> the level of Star Wars juvenile fiction.

Ty, I know you are kind of new to dealing with WEM, but let me tell you,
Willis would sacrifice his testicals before turning Dune into the crap that
is the SW novels.

>
> --Ty Beard
>
>


--
Best regards,
John

This sad little lizard told me that he was a brontosaurus on his mother's
side. I did not laugh; people who boast of ancestry often have little else
to sustain them. Humoring them costs nothing and adds to happiness in a
world in which happiness is always in short supply.
--- Robert Heinlein


Richard

unread,
Jan 24, 2001, 1:07:06 AM1/24/01
to
John Kenny <jke...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
<94lfk0$v9v$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net>...

> What? Did I miss something?
>
> Dear god. Are we going to have Duncan say, just before death defending
Paul
> and Jessica, "I'll be back"? Will gholas have red eyes in the DM mini
> series? Will Duncan get a chance to wear one of those really cool pink
> plumes from HH?
>
> Excuse me, I need to vomit.

It's rather simple. We are dealing with a lack of talent. The only truly
well known instance of a revolt against technology that exists in the
popular culture are the Terminator movies. So where will the talentless
look to steal from? I would have hoped that they could pick from a less
well known source to steal from, like that THX movie, or perhaps a schlocky
near future SciFi movie that I've missed.


--
Yrs,
Richard

"The commission takes notice of the fear that marijuana smoking, like
cigarette smoking, might lead to lung cancer and other lung pathology. No
evidence currently exists, it points out, to support this view. Moreover,
'the quantity of leaf consumed by the average cigarette smoker in North
America is many times the amount of cannabis smoked by even heavy users.
The present pattern of use by regular cannabis smokers in North America is
more analogous to intermittent alcohol use (e.g., once or twice a week),
than to the picture of chronic daily use presented by ordinary tobacco
dependence.'"
-The Consumer's Union Report

Azihayya

unread,
Nov 21, 2022, 7:08:39 PM11/21/22
to
Holy shiiiiit this conversation is old. This must have been happening back when I was in junior high, in Delaware, around the time that 9/11 happened, and I'd heard a teacher talk about this new 'Google', have you heard about this 'Google'?--Wow. I'm an aspiring author working in the Dune universe, and I don't quite care whether or not Brian would allow me to publish my work. I tend to think so highly of my writing that I imagine he would; and my interest is digging into the work in the Encyclopedia among other things. I remembered reading this conversation quite awhile ago and was thinking about messaging Willis for his notes--but alas, the fellow has passed. I'm curious though if anyone ever was able to procure his outlines? Does anyone know who Willis' children, wife, or family are? I bet you those notes are out there, and I'd love to some day use those notes to work from.
0 new messages