George Lucas is a thief of thoughts!!!
Morgan Sadler Natt
On 1 Feb 1997, RZoerb wrote:
> The infamous George Lucas has stolen many ideas from the book of Dune. For
> this I propose he be sent to his room without any supper. For instance, is
> it just a coincidence that STAR WARS happens to take place on a desert
> planet and that the governmental system is feudal and under the rule of an
> evil emperor? And what about the spice mines of Kessel that contain
> 'mystical" spices which make you see into the future and change the color
> of your eyes?
>
> PLEASE RESPOND (I don't care if you agree with me or not)
> P.S. Is it to young to marry at 16?
>
>
First and foremost, Lucas himself has been asked this question. He
replied that although there were similairities, he did not get a lot of
his material from Dune. Lucas went back and watched the old Buck Rogers
serials of the '30's and 40's. These were the main inspiration for Star
Wars.
Secondly, the Empire, in SW, was modelled after the Romans, when Julius
Caeser declared himself emperor and the Senate basically became
non-exisistant after that point. SW's empire is not a pyramid heirarchy,
like Dune's.
And yes there are common elements in both ideas, but hey isn't that why
they call it science fiction, emphasis on the fiction. Writers borrow
ideas and concepts from each other all the time. Perhaps it's
coincidental perhaps not. I like Dune and I like Star Wars, but I'd
rather read the whole Dune series again than speed read the multitude of
Star Wars novellas that are out now.
And as for your post script, the law is the law, if the law says you can
be married at age 16, I have no objections.
Morgan
Corwin reflecting on Bleys, "...and the devil himself danced behind his eyes"
John Hidalgo
RZoerb wrote:
>
> The infamous George Lucas has stolen many ideas from the book of Dune. For
> this I propose he be sent to his room without any supper. For instance, is
> it just a coincidence that STAR WARS happens to take place on a desert
> planet and that the governmental system is feudal and under the rule of an
> evil emperor? And what about the spice mines of Kessel that contain
> 'mystical" spices which make you see into the future and change the color
> of your eyes?
>
> PLEASE RESPOND (I don't care if you agree with me or not)
> P.S. Is it to young to marry at 16?
You are absolutely right! George Lucas is a theif of thoughts as are
most successful artists and business leaders if you look closely. If you
asked Lucas he might say that Dune was one of his "influences". But
none of this should suprise anyone. After all, he works in Hollywood.
As to your other question, yes. Sixteen is to young to get married.
Most people don't really start figuring their own lives out until around
25 much less sharing life with someone else. Look around at the success
rate of young marriages and that might give you a clue. There are
reasons why they don't work out. But, if you relly want to try it....
RZoerb
Mark Broadworth
RZoerb <rzo...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970201041...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> The infamous George Lucas has stolen many ideas from the book of Dune.
For
> this I propose he be sent to his room without any supper. For instance,
is
> it just a coincidence that STAR WARS happens to take place on a desert
> planet and that the governmental system is feudal and under the rule of
an
> evil emperor?
...not to mention that Jabba the Hutt looks suspiciously like a small
version of Leto II, God Emperor of Dune.
Mark.
Kumar Sivasubramanian
In article <bnapier-ya0240800...@news.ipa.net>,
bna...@ipa.net (Brian H. Napier) wrote:
> In article <19970201041...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, rzo...@aol.com
> (RZoerb) wrote:
>
> > The infamous George Lucas has stolen many ideas from the book of Dune. For
> > this I propose he be sent to his room without any supper. For instance, is
> > it just a coincidence that STAR WARS happens to take place on a desert
> > planet and that the governmental system is feudal and under the rule of an
> > evil emperor? And what about the spice mines of Kessel that contain
> > 'mystical" spices which make you see into the future and change the color
> > of your eyes?
> >
> It is funny you should choose these two books to compare when there are
> probably 10,000 more with similar settings and plots. This just proves you
> have heard about the movie Dune and heard about the movie Star Wars.
>
>
> I don't care if you don't care if I agree with you or not.
>
> Brian
I just read Frank Herbert's EYE, and in his introduction he writes:
"David [Lynch] had trouble with the fact that STAR WARS used up so much of
DUNE. We had found sixteen points of identity between my novel and STAR
WARS. That is not to say this was other than coincidence, even though we
figured the odds against coincidence and produced a number larger than the
number of stars in the universe." (EYE p.13)
Herbert doesn't go on to name these 16 similarities, but we can do some
guesswork. We can add to the list of identities- the desert planet, and
the evil empire- the boy hero. Anyone out there care to try to find the
other 13?
Kumar
Burghy
Big ships?
--
The Attack Dog: Red Alert
http://home.hkstar.com/~luibr/
101+ strategy tips.
(please remove 'BLA' when replying)
Paul Atreides
This sounds kinda fun, giving a couple of minutes before sleep. Let's
see. Jabba the worm, Leto the worm. The "force" and the "weirding
way". Han using the computer to calculate hyperspace, the Steersmen
using preciense to calculate space travel. Luke/Leia's parents held
secrets, Jessica a Harkonnen(stretching it there). Geez, I give up.
IMO, all sci-fi flows in the (basically) same direction. Nothing in
print compares to Dune, it may be a long time until something does.
Star Wars was written for the screen, hence it's success on the
screen. On paper it doesn't have the success of Dune. I just saw the
Star Wars re-release. I must say it is terrific, I didn't think of
Dune once during it. Somehow the simularities don't come up right
away. Actually when C3PO and R2D2 were in the desert lost I did think
of Dune, just because of the endless dunes(also the fact that I'm such
a Dunatic i gotta think of Dune at least once an hour :)
Keep Dune alive, protect the spice, protect the Mahdi!
Stephan Krause
Usul's Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/area51/6796
"There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and oppression
to develop psychic muscles."
--Paul Muad'Dib
Robert G. Goodkin
On 1 Feb 1997 04:16:45 GMT, rzo...@aol.com (RZoerb) wrote:
>The infamous George Lucas has stolen many ideas from the book of Dune. For
>this I propose he be sent to his room without any supper. For instance, is
>it just a coincidence that STAR WARS happens to take place on a desert
>planet and that the governmental system is feudal and under the rule of an
>evil emperor? And what about the spice mines of Kessel that contain
>'mystical" spices which make you see into the future and change the color
>of your eyes?
Well I guess you could also say Herbert stole from Bradbury because he
did indeed write science-fiction. Anyway who cares? If Mr. Lucas did
steal from Dune what better way to pay it tribute?
Andrew
In article <32f7e46c...@news.azstarnet.com>, r...@azstarnet.com (Robert G. Goodkin) wrote:
>On 1 Feb 1997 04:16:45 GMT, rzo...@aol.com (RZoerb) wrote:
>
>>The infamous George Lucas has stolen many ideas from the book of Dune.
>
>Well I guess you could also say Herbert stole from Bradbury because he
>did indeed write science-fiction. Anyway who cares? If Mr. Lucas did
>steal from Dune what better way to pay it tribute?
In that case, Bradbury stole from Jules Vern. I agree with your second point
though; as they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the worms. Doesn't anyone remember
those big worm things in Star Wars. Granted, they weren't a major (or even a
minor) part of the story, but they looked almost identical to the worms in the
Dune movie (as described in the Dune series).
- Andrew.
Kumar Sivasubramanian
> > I just read Frank Herbert's EYE, and in his introduction he writes:
> >
> > DUNE. We had found sixteen points of identity between my novel and STAR
> > WARS. That is not to say this was other than coincidence, even though we
> > figured the odds against coincidence and produced a number larger than the
> > number of stars in the universe." (EYE p.13)
> >
> > Herbert doesn't go on to name these 16 similarities, but we can do some
> > guesswork. We can add to the list of identities- the desert planet, and
> > the evil empire- the boy hero. Anyone out there care to try to find the
> > other 13?
> >
> > Kumar
>
Yes, big ships. Also, how about: The God-Emperor = Jabba the Hutt?
Kumar
Bgs
On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Paul Atreides wrote:
> This sounds kinda fun, giving a couple of minutes before sleep. Let's
> see. Jabba the worm, Leto the worm. The "force" and the "weirding
> way". Han using the computer to calculate hyperspace, the Steersmen
> using preciense to calculate space travel. Luke/Leia's parents held
> secrets, Jessica a Harkonnen(stretching it there). Geez, I give up.
> IMO, all sci-fi flows in the (basically) same direction. Nothing in
[cut]
Hi !
I wouldn't call it stealing. I saw an interview with Lucas on the reedited
Star Wars edition. There he admitted that he really liked Dune and it
partialy the base of SW.
So he took ideas from Dune rather than steal. He didn't want to hide at
all that some of the ideas were taken from Dune. And the hole SW was
inspired by Dune.
Bye
Bgs
>
> Keep Dune alive, protect the spice, protect the Mahdi!
>
> Stephan Krause
>
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Kumar Sivasubramanian
In article <Pine.LNX.3.95.97020...@labor1.cs.elte.hu>,
b...@cs.elte.hu wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Paul Atreides wrote:
>
> > This sounds kinda fun, giving a couple of minutes before sleep. Let's
> > see. Jabba the worm, Leto the worm. The "force" and the "weirding
> > way". Han using the computer to calculate hyperspace, the Steersmen
> > using preciense to calculate space travel. Luke/Leia's parents held
> > secrets, Jessica a Harkonnen(stretching it there). Geez, I give up.
> > IMO, all sci-fi flows in the (basically) same direction. Nothing in
> [cut]
>
> Hi !
>
> I wouldn't call it stealing. I saw an interview with Lucas on the reedited
> Star Wars edition. There he admitted that he really liked Dune and it
> partialy the base of SW.
>
> So he took ideas from Dune rather than steal. He didn't want to hide at
> all that some of the ideas were taken from Dune. And the hole SW was
> inspired by Dune.
>
>
> Bye
> Bgs
Oh, I agree a hundred percent. Nobody said it was stealing, and I wouldn't
say it was even taking ideas. It was more like paying homage to the most
brilliant novel of all time. Ridley Scott said that he based "Alien" on
"2001" and "Star Wars" but he wasn't using their ideas, merely the same
visual linguistics. That final scene of "The Abyss" where Bud is
travelling through the ship was straight out of "2001" but it wasn't
stealing either; it was just Cameron ackowledging the greatness of what
has been done before. Similarly, Lucas acknowledges the brilliance of the
desert landscape in a SF context, so he draws from Herbert's imagery.
Kumar
John Santry
In article <psivasub-050...@psivasub.biology.unb.ca>,
Jabba looks like the God-Emperor, but he acts more like the Baron!
Here are some candidates:
1. Han Solo is a spice smuggler, much like Tuek, and also saves the boy-hero's
ass.
2. The Force seems to give Jedi knights some Bene Gesserit, Mentat, and
spice-prescience "powers":
a. The Voice
b. Prana-Bindu like physical control (of lightsaber, in particular)
c. Luke's ability to hit the Death Star auxiliary exhaust port without benefit
of targeting computer (making Luke a "human computer", superior to technology)
d. Obi-Wan's rapid assessment of the location and operation of tractor beam
e. Luke "searches his feelings" (obsevation of minutiae?) to discover identity
of his sister, similar to Paul's epiphany regarding his own heritage
f. The Force can show a Jedi visions of the future (as well as distant or past
events)
3. Darth Vader:Luke/Leia::Baron:Paul/Jessica, kinda sorta
Donovan Grant ... The Dark Poet
"Some writers confuse authenticity, which they ought always to aim at,
with originality, which they should never bother about." -- W. H. Auden
You may as well fault Herbert for plagurizing _Exodus_.
-- DoG
--
Where does one go from a world of insanity?
Somewhere on the other side of despair. -- T. S. Eliot
Donovan Grant: <http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dark_poet/>
domin...@aol.com
I would like to state that in the book for the first of the Star Wars
movies, Jabba the Hut was a ridiculously fat man who was virtually
immobile, he was moved around on some kind of vehicle.
Well, lets have a look at Baron Harkonnen, and there's a great similarity
there also.
I think that George just borrowed from the best, what else can I say.
Dominic Kulcsar
Dane Bennett
Mark Broadworth wrote:
>
> RZoerb <rzo...@aol.com> wrote in article
> <19970201041...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> > this I propose he be sent to his room without any supper. For instance,
> is
> > it just a coincidence that STAR WARS happens to take place on a desert
> > planet and that the governmental system is feudal and under the rule of
> an
> > evil emperor?
>
> version of Leto II, God Emperor of Dune.
>
> Mark.
this entire line is a little silly,
Jabba and Baron Harkonnen, give me a break, Jabba is a crime lord who
originaly did not even appear until the Second movie, as a matter of
fact a rime lord on a backward hole in the wall planet, hardly a mirror
image to our evil baron, and Jabba is a giant slug or something not an
ugly fat man. The only Star Wars character comparable is the
emperor,,and I am sorry F.H. did not invent evil emperors, large
spaceships and supernaturaly enhanced protagonists. There is very
little in common between the Wierding way ( which in my mind is an
advanced martial art form) and the Force, which is God or something.
Dune in my mind is one of the greatest Science Fiction novels of all
time, and Star Wars is one of the greatest S. F. movies......I suppose
Rodenbery stole Star Trek as well....
Paul Atreides
Doesn't the God Emperor move around on some kind of vehicle of Ixian
manufacture? He only moved from it in danger, he did not wish to show
his strength. I read that George Lucas had meant for Jaba to be a
worm being rather than what the author of your book had imagined Jaba
to be. IMO, Dune is the greatest series of books I've ever read, no
contest. Likewise Star Wars is the greatest series of films I've ever
seen, no contest. What's the problem? If George Lucas wasn't
inspired by Dune, perhaps Star Wars wouldn't have been as great, we
all would have been denied the full potential of those great films.
Let's wait for the release of the first three(episode I,II,III) of the
series to be released. I understand much of the clone wars to be on
Luke's homeplanet, the desert planet. Also is clones meant to be the
clones of duplication? If so then I expect comparisons between clones
and gholas :(
Keep Dune alive, protect the spice, protect the Mahdi!
Stephan Krause
Usul's Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/area51/6796
domin...@aol.com
In article <330013...@tam2000.tamu.edu>, Dane Bennett
<DWB...@tam2000.tamu.edu> writes:
> Allright,,,yeah,,,,c'mon now, I am sorry but as a fan of both
stories
>this entire line is a little silly,
> Jabba and Baron Harkonnen, give me a break, Jabba is a crime lord
who
>originaly did not even appear until the Second movie, as a matter of
>fact a rime lord on a backward hole in the wall planet, hardly a mirror
>image to our evil baron, and Jabba is a giant slug or something not an
>ugly fat man. The only Star Wars character comparable is the
>emperor,,and I am sorry F.H. did not invent evil emperors, large
>spaceships and supernaturaly enhanced protagonists. There is very
>little in common between the Wierding way ( which in my mind is an
>advanced martial art form) and the Force, which is God or something.
>Dune in my mind is one of the greatest Science Fiction novels of all
>time, and Star Wars is one of the greatest S. F. movies......I suppose
>Rodenbery stole Star Trek as well....
Well, it's question of this man realising that there was a scene with
Jabba in the book, and for the new version of the film, they put the well
known Jabba over some boring looking fat man who was filmed in the
original Star Wars production but the shot was removed before film
release.
Frank Herbert himself believed that G.lucas borrowed heavily from his book
and the least they could do was owe him lunch.
domin...@aol.com
MY BIBBLE BABBLE
Well, when I read the Star Wars book by George Lucas around ten years ago, I was trying to piece together what Jabba looked like, and , I took the memory from all this years ago, when I had read it wrong, even though I tried to piece it together.
he never had a vehicle in the original story. He was' A great mobile tub of muscle and suet topped by a shaggy scarred skull.' I may have put together the idea of a vehicle when I read the description of the 'great mobile tub' and this broke off from the rest of the description.
He left it open a little I guess to interpretation, and I shouldn't ever quote from memory.
The memory mixed with the fact that he used a man to play Jabba and this didn't work very well, so he cut it. and this man has been shown in various pictures of the scene, and they show how they superimposed the later Jabba.
How can he be like fatman Harkonnen.They were both bad fat men for a while. until the Jabba became fat and vaguely humanoid .Well I presume that man cut out of Star Wars was fat, well he was very fleshy at least.It's just a pet idea of mine, I'll keep it on a leash, i enjoy thinking about it and the way the most fat loathsome humanoid creature from the Star Wars trilogy and the mist fat loathsome man in the Dune movie might share something in common . And it being a pet theory, I assume that people will continue to keep different kinds of pets because they like them, and they should be allowed to exercise them let them off their lead on the internet, and bit everyone's leg off.
Now that I can't state that Jabba went around in a vehicle because he didn't have one, I can't tell you that George Lucas stole from Frank Herbert in any particular way. just various oddments to decorate small elements, if George had copied it more obviously, then he would have been sued by Frank Herbert.
Dune has been ripped off by a number of people and Star Wars draws ideas from a number of sources. George Lucas' AT-ATs were taken from ideas by Syd Mead without his consent, Syd went and sued him, I believe. Where did Lucas get the Imperial probot on Hoth, design, he stole it from a cartoon drawn my Moebius called the Long Tomorrow which had been one of the inspirations in the prodcution of Blade Runner. George Lucas was invited to write a foreward for a Moebius book.
Do not look for a literal translation of any of the Dune characters in Star wars, otherwise you may be a fool.(Thankfully , not all of you are yet) George Lucas is more ingenious than that, we might want to call him eclectic. I like the WW II ideas running through it, which are more prominent than the echoes of Dune.
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
Let us see what the Dune director himself said for the magazine Rollingstone 6/12/84
David Lynch:First of all, George did a fantastic thing, and he may have been influenced by these different things, but he took them in a supercreative way, he made it go very far from the feeling of Dune. But it was strange to go through (the book) and find this was done in Star Wars or something else. I wanted to do new things so I had to do them differently.
__________________________________________________
__________________________________________________
This is what Frank Herbert said about Star Wars in Starlog / January 1983.
FH: Oh yes. What we're into right now is the comic book and pulp magazine era of science-fiction movies.We are creating an audience, putting out the cliches that every science fiction fan knows, but that most of this new audience does not know. This was Star Wars chief value. I could see this comic book attraction for a lot of the audience, but it brought in many people who didn't know the first damn thing about science fiction. They liked that kind of black and white explosion and so they liked the film.
SL:The timing was right for Star Wars. After nearly 15 years of downbeat, anti -hero films, here's a new "Errol Flynn" movie, which takes its subject seriously- and captures the audience.
FH:You're absolutely right, despite the fact that Star Wars reached into the existence of Science Fiction and ripped off everyhting in sight
SL:Aren't those same elements - previously used by Larry Niven, Doc Smith, Fred Pohl - just the conventions of science fiction?
FH:Not just the conventions, but the cliches of science fiction. They aren't cliches to us on the inside, merely the devices used to tell an acceptable science fiction story.
Someone asked me if I objected to finding "plasteel" in other science-fiction stories. and I said "No." "But you originated it!" And I said, "So?" Big deal, I originated it , so what? Now it's a part of the genre, part of the business.You don't worry about things like that. And for making science fiction so identifiable, I think Star ars did us all a big favour.
_______________________
Back in Rolling Stone, one of the main comments on show is.
'Star Wars' borrowed from Dune a lot, says its author:'I think they owe me at least a dinner'
yours sincerely,
Dominic (the sleeper who never awoke) Kulcsar
NOSFERATU
Actually, the design for Jabba the Hutt was based on a cross between a
queen bee and a slug. If you go see the newer version of Star Wars, you
will see that Jabba gets around quite nicely on his own. In Jedi his
throne was movable so he could watch prisoners being devoured by thr
Rancor in the pit beneath his throne room.
en...@gte.net
Mark Broadworth wrote:
>
> RZoerb <rzo...@aol.com> wrote in article
> <19970201041...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> > The infamous George Lucas has stolen many ideas from the book of Dune.
> For
> > this I propose he be sent to his room without any supper. For instance,
> is
> > it just a coincidence that STAR WARS happens to take place on a desert
> > planet and that the governmental system is feudal and under the rule of
> an
> > evil emperor?
>
> ...not to mention that Jabba the Hutt looks suspiciously like a small
> version of Leto II, God Emperor of Dune.
>
Philth
In article <5dq78j$4...@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk>, Nikki Nokky Noo <u6...@Keele.ac.uk> wrote:
>I remember a "Star Wars" scene in which someone fell down a tube lined
>with "teeth", very reminiscent of the sandworms in the film of "Dune".
>
>Nikki
About the fatman as Jabba:
Lucas has stated that the entire idea of Jabba was *always* to be some sort of
slug-like being, but at the time they didn't have a budget/special effects
know-how to pull off something like that. It was easy for them to make a big
hairy wookie, etc, but a big slug such as Jabba in Return of the Jedi would
have been too costly for the first film at that time, so he intentionally shot
that part for the hell of it (Big heavyset men make great Ganglords in
all the movies... Next best thing..) and decided to just leave it out because
it wasn't what he really wanted.
About the sand thing in Return of the Jedi:
It was taken after a large Ant Lion, but 'movisized' with teeth, etc.. In the
new released version it actually has a head of some sort and more tentacles.
I don't see a worm resemblence at all, other than it was 'big' and lived in
the 'sand' ..
As for the Star Wars movies themselves:
The entire storyline was very simple, very much your *standard* 'rescue the
damsel in distress by a young knight' crusade. There was nothing really
original about the first movie other than the special effects at the time were
INCREDIBLY good for what people were used to. And the characters were
very well written, and the roles played very well. I am sure Lucas has read
Dune, and I am also sure it may have stemmed some thoughts and ideas
to incorperate into his movies. But I do not think he tried to blatently 'rip
off' anything from Frank Herberts writing. Whatever you learn, makes you
stronger, right?
Phil
Gully Foyle
>In article <bnapier-ya0240800...@news.ipa.net>,
>bna...@ipa.net (Brian H. Napier) wrote:
>
>> In article <19970201041...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, rzo...@aol.com
>> (RZoerb) wrote:
>>
>> > The infamous George Lucas has stolen many ideas from the book of Dune. For
>> > this I propose he be sent to his room without any supper. For instance, is
>> > it just a coincidence that STAR WARS happens to take place on a desert
>> > planet and that the governmental system is feudal and under the rule of an
>> > evil emperor? And what about the spice mines of Kessel that contain
>> > 'mystical" spices which make you see into the future and change the color
>> > of your eyes?
>> >
>
>> It is funny you should choose these two books to compare when there are
>> probably 10,000 more with similar settings and plots. This just proves you
>> have heard about the movie Dune and heard about the movie Star Wars.
>>
>>
>> I don't care if you don't care if I agree with you or not.
>>
>> Brian
>
>I just read Frank Herbert's EYE, and in his introduction he writes:
>
>"David [Lynch] had trouble with the fact that STAR WARS used up so much of
>DUNE. We had found sixteen points of identity between my novel and STAR
>WARS. That is not to say this was other than coincidence, even though we
>figured the odds against coincidence and produced a number larger than the
>number of stars in the universe." (EYE p.13)
>
>Herbert doesn't go on to name these 16 similarities, but we can do some
>guesswork. We can add to the list of identities- the desert planet, and
>the evil empire- the boy hero. Anyone out there care to try to find the
>other 13?
Here is something that I ran off a very long time ago;
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
It's been said that George Lucas never throws away an idea (even if
it's someone else's I suppose) this stuff is really blatant though.
While in college he apparently read all four (back then there were
only 4 books and I think they are still multiplying) Dune books in a
few days, and the profits from Star Wars prove that reading is good
for you.;) Lucas also drew much from heroic mythology as well as other
works such as The Wizard of Oz plundering characters like C3PO etc.
after all, no commercial success would be complete without comic
relief, right. Incidentally GL claims that Chewie was inspired by his
dog Indiana, now that name sounds familiar.
A quick tip: if you're not familiar with the material, don't read the
SW trilogy just watch the movies and save some time for the better
stuff. As for Dune, definitely read the first book, give the rest a
try if you have the stamina. They really come down to being an
acquired taste.
******** WARNING SOME MAJOR SPOILERS AHEAD FOR DUNE AND STAR WARS
********
______________________________________________________________________________
What filtered through from Dune to StarWars?
______________________________________________________________________________
*
The desert planet. I know its obvious.
*
Geidi Prime its surface completely covered by metal = The Death Star.
*
The Emperor plotting behind the scenes and appearing for the finale.
*
The Sardaukar became Stormtroopers (elite troops trained from
childhood under extreme conditions).
*
______________________________________________________________________________
The characters obviously went through varied transformations and some
new ones were added for commercial reasons. The genesis of many of the
characters can still be traced quite easily.
______________________________________________________________________________
Luke Skywalker/The New Hope (Paul/Kwisatz Haderach).
Leia (a merger of Alia/Jessica/Chani/Irulan) so many women yet they
only make up 10% of the characters, after all this is mainstream
right, so lets just plonk in a token female (for the love interest you
see!).
Han Solo (Gurney and Duncan are there somewhere) he is also a
smuggler.
Darth Vader Luke's, Leia's Father (Baron Harkonnen Paul's/Alia's
grandfather).
Obi-Wan (Thufir Hawwat) I have served your father etc.
Jabba the Hutt in the first movie was a fat guy in black robes but
this was cut from the movie. Sound familiar?
*
The spice mines of Kessel. Spice.
*
Jawas and Sand People were derived from the Fremen.
Sand Crawlers and Spice Harvesters look a bit too similar.
*
Speaking of worms what was that thing in Jedi that Luke and friends
were about to be fed to by walking the plank?
*
The Clone Wars. The Butlerian Jihad. What better way to get some
depth into your story than to lift it from somewhere else?
*
The Jedi Nuts. The Benne Gesserit. Too many women, lets make it a
boys club and draw on myth by calling them knights, no round table
though. The use of light sabres in SW was knives in Dune.
*
The Force. The Weirding Way.
*
Obi-Wan uses something a lot like the Voice to get past some troopers
in SW. This scene is very similar to the one in which Jessica gets the
Harkonnens to release Paul.
*
______________________________________________________________________________
That's about all I can think of for now, I don't intend to write a
thesis on it, but if anyone wants to add to and update this list, by
all means.
Lucas did the right thing by splitting his story into three parts,
Dune would have been a better movie if it had gotten the same
treatment. I don't know if even then it would have survived Dino, I
doubt it after all Conan didn't and that would have been a lot easier
to transfer to the screen. We did get Blue Velvet as some sort of
recompense from Lych so its not all that bad. After all someone might
have even gone off and read Dune just to work out what the hell was
going on.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
_________________________________________________________________
Due to unreliable news feed, send me an e-mailed
copy of your follow-up to this post.
Remove the Z at the end of my e-mail address,
this has been placed there to stop junk mail.
_________________________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________________
Life is as tedious as a twice told tale
Vexing the dull ear of a drowsy man.
the Bard of Avon
_________________________________________________________________
james joshua moran
I would like to inject a thought on the matter. what if and i know these
questions are unfair but what if Dune had taking on the popularity of
Star Wars and Sw the popularity of dune. I believe We would have a much
different world today. A generation grew up on popSciFi a.k.a Sw(which I
have nothing against they were enjoyable movies) and came away with a
incomplete view of things. If our society had embraced dune and emulated
its characters where would we be. If children grew up fantacizing about
being mentats and Bene Gesserits instead of wookies and drones. just a
thought i guess probably wouldn't be a difference at all. maybe it was
just a sign of our society the choice that was made and if it had been
different then maybe I be complaining that they chose dune over Sw.
any thoughts on the matter?
David Stinson
In article <33114b73...@news.jeack.com.au>, r...@axis.jeack.com.auz
(Gully Foyle) wrote:
: >Herbert doesn't go on to name these 16 similarities, but we can do some
: >guesswork. We can add to the list of identities- the desert planet, and
: >the evil empire- the boy hero. Anyone out there care to try to find the
: >other 13?
How about a cross-list that they all have in common with the FLASH GORDON
serials and comic strips - on which ALL these items appeared DOZENS of
years before DUNE.
Even Frank Herbert himself admitted that DUNE was based on the MESSIAH
archetype.
How about LAWRENCE OF ARABIA?
How about GILGAMESH (predates everything by only a few THOUSAND years)...
Try reading some Joseph Campbell on the archetype in mythology.
BTW, you might want to see an old martial arts movie (by Kirasawa, I
believe) called THE HIDDEN FORTRESS.
Replace the snow with sand, and you have a good portion of STAR WARS. And
that one was mentioned SPECIFICALLY by Lucas as an influence.
--
David A. Stinson Web Page: http://www.procom.com/~daves/index.html
Product Integration Work E-Mail : da...@procom.com
Engineer Personal E-Mail : dsti...@ix.netcom.com or
Procom Technology dast...@aol.com
**** OPINIONS ABOVE ARE THOSE OF D.STINSON, AND NOT NECESSARILY THOSE OF
PROCOM TECHNOLOGY ****
Harvey White
On Sun, 23 Feb 1997 15:44:46 GMT, r...@axis.jeack.com.auz (Gully Foyle)
wrote:
<lotsa stuff snipped for bandwidth>
All you've really proven is that both Lucas and Herbert drew from the
same kind of mythic background. George was exceptionally unoriginal,
but then again, there're similarities between just about all the books
by all the authors. The genius is in the reweaving of the threads, to
come out with something that tells a good story.
As far as the similarities are concerned, Herbert was biased. Many of
the things he wrote about were common in other novels. IIRC, Trantor
(Asimov) was pretty much an artificial planet/built up with no
remaining natural surface. What distinguishes Herbert's works is the
depth of the detail in Arrakis itself, and the care with which he put
the world together.
Harvey
***
I just read minds,
I don't explain them
***
Karl Mac Mc Kinnon
On a related note, my cousin is sure that DS9 is a rip off of
Star Wars. The most obvious paralelle is Kira and Laya. Chewbacca is
Worf, etc.
-----
The knowledge of our own eventual mortality keeps us honest.
-Anton Szandor LaVey
John Adcox
Don't forget the "sandworm" skeleton in the desert and the load of spice
Han dumped...
> All you've really proven is that both Lucas and Herbert drew from the
> same kind of mythic background. George was exceptionally unoriginal,
> but then again, there're similarities between just about all the books
> by all the authors. The genius is in the reweaving of the threads, to
> come out with something that tells a good story.
Amen. That says it all.
John
--
Visit My Web Page!
http://www.mindspring.com/~jadcox
John Adcox jad...@mindspring.com
Melanie Dorn
Karl Mac Mc Kinnon (caps...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu) wrote:
: On a related note, my cousin is sure that DS9 is a rip off of
: Star Wars. The most obvious paralelle is Kira and Laya. Chewbacca is
: Worf, etc.
That's funny. The never-ending threads on Usenet claim that DS9 is
a rip off of Babylon 5, not Star Wars. I really can't see any parallels
between SW and DS9. Kira and Leia? What do they have in common besides
being female? Worf and Chewie? Don't see this one at all either besides
both are a bit... excitable.
I hope this was a poor attempt at a troll. If it was, you forgot to cross
post to the Star Wars, Star Trek, or alt.talk.* newsgroups. And like I
said the proper troll deals with the B5-DS9 similarities.
Troll score: 0.1 (0-10 scale)
Adam Bridge
Star Wars and Dune?
Hmm......Star Wars is a WWII action film complete with Germans, fighter
attacks on convoys.....the whole nine yards. (I don't know whatt hose
bones were in the desert but it wasn't any sandworm that Dune would make
mention of). There was loads of room for Lynch to roam for his Dune that
Star Wars never touched.
ab
--
Adam Bridge
Karl Mac Mc Kinnon
>That's funny. The never-ending threads on Usenet claim that DS9 is
>a rip off of Babylon 5, not Star Wars.
The internal archetechture of the space station and the Death
Star are similer.
> I really can't see any parallels
>between SW and DS9. Kira and Leia? What do they have in common besides
>being female?
1.) physical appearence.
2.) "Uppity" additude
3.) Revelutionaries
> Worf and Chewie? Don't see this one at all either besides
>both are a bit... excitable.
Very strong wierd looking aliens.
>I hope this was a poor attempt at a troll. If it was, you forgot to cross
>post to the Star Wars, Star Trek, or alt.talk.* newsgroups. And like I
>said the proper troll deals with the B5-DS9 similarities.
>
>Troll score: 0.1 (0-10 scale)
>
Not a troll.
And if I was trolling I'd be comparing ds9 to ds9.
Quark: no last name-in exile from own people for being infected by human values
Worf: no last name-in exile from own people for being infected by human values
Odo: no last name-in exile from own people for being infected by human values
John R. Rybock
On Sun, 23 Feb 1997 15:44:46 GMT, r...@axis.jeack.com.auz (Gully Foyle)
wrote:
>>I just read Frank Herbert's EYE, and in his introduction he writes:
>>
>>"David [Lynch] had trouble with the fact that STAR WARS used up so much of
>>DUNE. We had found sixteen points of identity between my novel and STAR
>>WARS. That is not to say this was other than coincidence, even though we
>>figured the odds against coincidence and produced a number larger than the
>>number of stars in the universe." (EYE p.13)
>>
Actually, I *hear* (though it's on my list of movies to check out)
that Star Wars (ANH) has a lot of parallels with an Akira Kurasowa
film (something "Fortress" I think). It is also quite similar to
"Lensman," which is based on a story by EE Doc Smith. It also has a
lot in common with serials from the 30s. And WWII air battle medievial
movies. And Buck Rogers movies...
Getting the point? Heck, I'm sure that if you took 90% of movies
today, you could piece together a dozen places they "steal" from. The
secret of Star Wars is not that its original. It certainly isn't. The
magic is how it tells its story, in a way that's new and fresh for
kids, and nostaglic for the Lucas generation.
And, when I think about it, considering all the Dune similarities, and
all the similarities Star Wars shares with older material, I have to
think, "how much did Herbert steal?"
----------------------------------------------------------------
John R. Rybock | Welcome to the wonderful world of high
ryb...@ix.netcom.com | technology.
http://www.digiweb.com/ | --Walter Skinner, X-Files
~rybock/xfiles2.html |
Harvey White
On Tue, 25 Feb 1997 04:26:53 GMT, ryb...@ix.netcom.com (John R.
Rybock) wrote:
<snip>
>Actually, I *hear* (though it's on my list of movies to check out)
>that Star Wars (ANH) has a lot of parallels with an Akira Kurasowa
>film (something "Fortress" I think). It is also quite similar to
>"Lensman," which is based on a story by EE Doc Smith.
If it's the movie, _very loosely_ based. If it's the books, I'm not
sure what GL stole, errr. was influenced by. I think that the Lensman
movie, which bares a tangential relationship to the Lensman books,
probably _does_ have a bit more to do with SW, and that might be a
reason why the two diverged. Hadn't thought about that one before.
The original series by E.E.Smith, Phd. was quite good enough without
being improved.
> It also has a
>lot in common with serials from the 30s. And WWII air battle medievial
>movies. And Buck Rogers movies...
and daggone near any thing else, too.
>
>Getting the point? Heck, I'm sure that if you took 90% of movies
>today, you could piece together a dozen places they "steal" from. The
>secret of Star Wars is not that its original. It certainly isn't. The
>magic is how it tells its story, in a way that's new and fresh for
>kids, and nostaglic for the Lucas generation.
But only nostalgic if you know where the bodies were buried before he
dug them up...
>
>And, when I think about it, considering all the Dune similarities, and
>all the similarities Star Wars shares with older material, I have to
>think, "how much did Herbert steal?"
An Outer Limits episode with a monster living under the sand. based on
an SF story (by G.R.R Martin?). Parts of Last and First Men (the
fourth men) mythology all over the place, Tolkien( now have you ever
seen Sauron and the Emperor in the same place? Well? Even worse, how
about Sauron and Darth Vader?)
Although I will have to hand it to Herbert, he was the first author I
know of to write himself into a corner with a self stabilizing
causality loop.
Harvey
>----------------------------------------------------------------
> John R. Rybock | Welcome to the wonderful world of high
> ryb...@ix.netcom.com | technology.
>http://www.digiweb.com/ | --Walter Skinner, X-Files
> ~rybock/xfiles2.html |
***
Paul Atreides
Gaaack!!!!!!!!!!
Someone kill this thread it's giving me a headache. I enjoy both is
that o.k.? Who cares where the ideas are from, they are vaguely
related to eachother(very vaguely). Sorry my turn to rant :) Can't let
Hitch hog all the ranting time ;)
Hitch
Dear Paul:
I'm going to beat you with a sandtrout :) You know quite well that I have
limited rants, and they are always on the same topic: state whether you
are identifying opinion, or "fact" as written by FH, and include cites to
support your opinion. That's basically it (other than my near-catatonia on
the topic of Gaius Helen being Jessica's mother). :) BTW, I agree - kill
this thread deader'n Julius Caesar.
Hitch
Paul Atreides <Us...@geocities.com> wrote in article
<3312a48f...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
Eddie McCreary
ryb...@ix.netcom.com (John R. Rybock) writes:
>
> On Sun, 23 Feb 1997 15:44:46 GMT, r...@axis.jeack.com.auz (Gully Foyle)
> Actually, I *hear* (though it's on my list of movies to check out)
> that Star Wars (ANH) has a lot of parallels with an Akira Kurasowa
> film (something "Fortress" I think). It is also quite similar to
> "Lensman," which is based on a story by EE Doc Smith. It also has a
> lot in common with serials from the 30s. And WWII air battle medievial
> movies. And Buck Rogers movies...
<snip>
The scene with R2 and 3PO just after the life pop crashes is
lifted directly from The Fortress. They are other general plot
similarities also.
--
Eddie McCreary Travelin' through hyperspace ain't
mailto:fo...@neosoft.com like dustin' crops boy.
http://www.neosoft.com/~forge H. Solo
Glenn Gray
On Sun, 23 Feb 1997, Gully Foyle wrote:
> While in college he apparently read all four (back then there were
> only 4 books and I think they are still multiplying) Dune books in a
> few days, and the profits from Star Wars prove that reading is good
> SW trilogy just watch the movies and save some time for the better
> stuff. As for Dune, definitely read the first book, give the rest a
> try if you have the stamina. They really come down to being an
> acquired taste.
80's. Lucas attended college in the 60's, I believe. Please explain how
Lucas could have read all 4 while in college? And no, the Dune books are
not still multiplying (although the Star War novelizations are). A quick
tip: if you're not familiar w/ these facts, don't post your distortions.
Glenn Gray
grg...@wam.umd.edu
"I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from being
gruntled."
--P.G. Wodehouse
Karl Mac Mc Kinnon
Proposal: DUNE, as a film, could not be made in a way that would
be short enough to show, faithful to the book, and not look like a
rip-off of Star Wars.
Steve Sloan
Harvey White wrote (about influences on Dune):
> An Outer Limits episode with a monster living under the sand.
> based on an SF story (by G.R.R Martin?).
WRONG! That story was first published in the early eighties, long
after DUNE.
_____________________________________________________________________
Steve Sloan E-mail: sl...@geosim.msfc.nasa.gov
Senior in Computer Science at the University of Alabama in Huntsville
Check out Kithrup.JPG on MY NEW WEB SITE (I'm so excited):
http://www.cs.uah.edu/cs/students/ssloan/
Karl Mac Mc Kinnon
> Excuse me? The 4th Dune book, God Emperor, was not published until the
>80's. Lucas attended college in the 60's, I believe. Please explain how
>Lucas could have read all 4 while in college? And no, the Dune books are
>not still multiplying (although the Star War novelizations are). A quick
>tip: if you're not familiar w/ these facts, don't post your distortions.
The question I want to know is which came first: C3PO the PrOtical
driod or 3PO the 3 Plaz Options (from Heretics of Dune).
Hell, I thought the end of Heretics of Dune was bassed on Jalisco's.
Karl Mac Mc Kinnon
Well, Mortal Kombat stole it's plotline from Star Wars, so there.
Brian Davies
> John R. Rybock) wrote:
> <snip>
> >Actually, I *hear* (though it's on my list of movies to check out)
> >that Star Wars (ANH) has a lot of parallels with an Akira Kurasowa
> >film (something "Fortress" I think).
Ouch -- it's "Kurosawa". (I've seen Kirasawa and Kurasowa on this thread,
but so far no actual correct spellings of the man's name.)
ma...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> If it's the movie, _very loosely_ based.
I wouldn't say "very loosely" -- there are a lot of changes, but both
"Star Wars" and "The Hidden Fortress" have a pair of farmer/soldiers with
no family, who save a princess from an evil empire with the help of an old
general. But the most striking similarities aren't even in the characters
or plot at all. If you look at the camera work, the composition of
elements in a frame, the construction of scenes, etc. the influence is
even more obvious. C-3PO and R2-D2 bickering in the Tattoine wastes
mimics the start of "The Hidden Fortress", camera angle for camera angle,
and the cinematic wipes used for scene transitions are identical in both
films.
On the main thread, calling any influence "Dune" might have had on "Star
Wars" stealing or plagiarism is to totally misunderstand the creative
process. Every artist in every field absorbs the images, sounds and
themes that preceded him/her. Good artists absorb interesting stuff, and
put these pieces together in new or interesting ways, possibly adding an
image or two of their own, and put a spin on them that reflects the
current consciousness. Both Lucas and Herbert did that masterfully, and
produced classics of their respective media. The claim that "Star Wars"
was plagiarized from "Dune" isn't any more valid than another silly old
chestnut, that "Dune" was plagiarized from "Lawrence of Arabia". If you
want truly original images, go look at cave paintings.
Anyway, "Dune" the movie had a lot more problems than just having to avoid
terrain covered by "Star Wars".
- Brian
***************************************************************************
* Brian Davies (dav...@ils.nwu.edu) * There are three kinds of lies: *
* http://www.ils.nwu.edu/~davies/ * Lies, damned lies, and release *
* Institute For The Learning Sciences * dates. *
* 1890 Maple Ave, Evanston, IL, 60201 * - guess who *
***************************************************************************
Matt Austern
dav...@ils.nwu.edu (Brian Davies) writes:
> I wouldn't say "very loosely" -- there are a lot of changes, but both
> "Star Wars" and "The Hidden Fortress" have a pair of farmer/soldiers with
> no family, who save a princess from an evil empire with the help of an old
> general. But the most striking similarities aren't even in the characters
> or plot at all. If you look at the camera work, the composition of
> elements in a frame, the construction of scenes, etc. the influence is
> even more obvious. C-3PO and R2-D2 bickering in the Tattoine wastes
> mimics the start of "The Hidden Fortress", camera angle for camera angle,
> and the cinematic wipes used for scene transitions are identical in both
> films.
George Lucas has always said that "Star Wars" was inspired by "The
Hidden Fortress". Personally, I've always thought that the
similarities aren't all that striking: this isn't a case like the
"spaghetti westerns" that were simple transcriptions of Kurosawa
films. Still, it's pretty obvious that Lucas did get some ideas from
Kurosawa.
Another filmmaker that Lucas clearly got some ideas from is Leni
Reifenstall. (Whose name I'm probably misspelling.) Some of the
shots at the end of "Star Wars" are stright out of "The Triumph of the
Will".
Guthrie Adams
On 11 Feb 1997 16:37:39 GMT, Nikki Nokky Noo <u6...@Keele.ac.uk>
wrote:
>I remember a "Star Wars" scene in which someone fell down a tube lined
>with "teeth", very reminiscent of the sandworms in the film of "Dune".
>
>Nikki
>
That's an understatement. In Empire Strikes back and Return of the
Jedi, there are creatures that vividly resemble the idea of the worms
from Dune. The entire story about Luke and the Skywalker family after
Han and the princess follow almost exactly to the six DUNE books.
David Stinson
In article <davies-2502...@davies.ils.nwu.edu>, dav...@ils.nwu.edu
(Brian Davies) wrote:
: Ouch -- it's "Kurosawa". (I've seen Kirasawa and Kurasowa on this thread,
: but so far no actual correct spellings of the man's name.)
I did put a (sp?) on my post regarding that spelling (the actual spelling
escaped me at that moment). But you will note my attribution to THE HIDDEN
FORTRESS, which George Lucas has credited as being the source for some STAR
WARS material (the reference is in his SKYWALKING book, I believe).
r...@axis.jeack.com.au
In article <Pine.SOL.3.95.97022...@rac4.wam.umd.edu>,
> > only 4 books and I think they are still multiplying) Dune books in a
> > few days, and the profits from Star Wars prove that reading is good
> > SW trilogy just watch the movies and save some time for the better
> > stuff. As for Dune, definitely read the first book, give the rest a
> > try if you have the stamina. They really come down to being an
> > acquired taste.
> 80's. Lucas attended college in the 60's, I believe. Please explain how
> Lucas could have read all 4 while in college?
I said I ran it off a while ago, and I hardly sat down to research every
little bit of the piece. The main part that you should have focused on
was the similarities of characters and plot elements.
> And no, the Dune books are
> not still multiplying (although the Star War novelizations are).
No shit Einstein, it was a joke. Too many SW novels dull the brain?
> A quick
> tip: if you're not familiar w/ these facts, don't post your distortions.
>
Oh, you are obviously qualified to know what distortions are. What a joke.
A quick tip: get a life.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
M. Rinley Deeds III
- Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries
On 25 Feb 1997, Karl Mac Mc Kinnon wrote:
>
>
> Well, Mortal Kombat stole it's plotline from Star Wars, so there.
No, see the Bruce Lee film Enter the Dragon
>
> -----
> The knowledge of our own eventual mortality keeps us honest.
> -Anton Szandor LaVey
>
>
+---------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
| M. Rinley Deeds III | Eat, Drink And Be Merry, For Tomorrow We Shall Die! |
| R A G N A R O K | email: mde...@oboe.calpoly.edu |
| (805) 594-1735 | (:O PCGAMES RPG Sci-Fi Fantasy Music }:< |
+---------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
"...look at it this way kid, you get to keep all the money."
[A
Gully Foyle
In article <cn4iR1KSMUF=1FH...@transarc.com>,
Jim_...@transarc.com wrote:
>
> r...@axis.jeack.com.auz (Gully Foyle) writes:
> >
> ______________________________________________________________________________
>
> A few of your points below are good. Star Wars did make a few
> references to Dune. But some of them are stretched well beyond the
> breaking point.
>
No doubt some of the points can be seen that way if taken separately.
I guess some of it depends where you are coming from. I was a (big)
Star Wars fan (right into the whole story) well before I even tried
reading Dune. But even watching the movie of Dune it is obvious that
(too) many of the same elements and ideas show up in SW to be mere
coincidence.
> >
> > What filtered through from Dune to StarWars?
> >
______________________________________________________________________________
> >
> > *
> > The desert planet. I know its obvious.
> > *
> > Geidi Prime its surface completely covered by metal = The Death Star.
> > *
> > The Emperor plotting behind the scenes and appearing for the
> finale.
>
> This is really stretching it.
If you mean this plot element appears in other many other stories,
then yes I agree it is a stretch.
>
> > *
> > The Sardaukar became Stormtroopers (elite troops trained from
> > childhood under extreme conditions).
>
> So is this.
I don't agree with this, if you read about the origins of the
Sardaukar and Stormtroopers you will see that they are one and the
same.
>
> > The characters obviously went through varied transformations and some
> > new ones were added for commercial reasons. The genesis of many of the
> > characters can still be traced quite easily.
>
> Easily? Most of what you say below is so stretched that you can make
> the same arguments for a number of books, as well as a number of myths
> and legends.
>
Really? While no doubt Lucas used other material for his
"inspiration", I think Dune's influences show through SW very clearly,
too clearly.
> >
> > Luke Skywalker/The New Hope (Paul/Kwisatz Haderach).
>
> The young man who becomes "the new hope" is a major element in
> mythology and a popular story element. It's hardly original to Dune.
>
Right, but the entire idea of the Kwisatz Haderach and The New Hope
taken together with all the other "similarities" can't leave too much
doubt.
> >
> > Leia (a merger of Alia/Jessica/Chani/Irulan) so many women yet they
> > only make up 10% of the characters, after all this is mainstream
> > right, so lets just plonk in a token female (for the love interest you
> > see!).
>
> Are you saying that "Dune has few female characters; Star Wars has few
> female characters; therefore, Star Wars lifted this from Dune."?
>
No, do you take me for an idiot? Re-read what I've written.
> >
> > Han Solo (Gurney and Duncan are there somewhere) he is also a
> > smuggler.
>
> Star Wars had secondary characters. Dune had secondary characters. One
> was even a smuggler. Therefore, Star Wars borrowed this from Dune?
>
Ah, no. What I'm saying is that the characters in Dune were the basis
for the characters in SW. Read Dune again.
> >
> > Darth Vader Luke's, Leia's Father (Baron Harkonnen Paul's/Alia's
> > grandfather).
> >
> > Obi-Wan (Thufir Hawwat) I have served your father etc.
>
> The old man/mentor is again a very common element in myth and legend.
>
Yes it is, but again you are looking at this separate from the other
elements.
> >
> > Jabba the Hutt in the first movie was a fat guy in black robes but
> > this was cut from the movie. Sound familiar?
>
> He wasn't "cut" from the movie. He was a stand in for a special effect
> that was to be filled in later. The scene was cut when they couldn't
> get the effects to work out right.
>
I've seen the stills and the scene was cut because Lucas wasn't happy
with it. Why was the stand in, in costume?
> > *
> > The spice mines of Kessel. Spice.
>
> Yeah. This is called a literary reference.
>
And, it points at Dune.
> > Jawas and Sand People were derived from the Fremen.
> > Sand Crawlers and Spice Harvesters look a bit too similar.
> > *
> > Speaking of worms what was that thing in Jedi that Luke and friends
> > were about to be fed to by walking the plank?
>
> Again, this was a literary reference. Star Wars does throw in a couple
> of minor Dune elements. (The skeleton of the sand worm in the first
> film is an even better example.) But these were tributes to Dune, not
> rip-offs of any sort.
>
Ah it's not a rip off, it's a homage. Bollocks, I'd like to see where
Lucas says that.
> > *
> > The Clone Wars. The Butlerian Jihad. What better way to get some
> > depth into your story than to lift it from somewhere else?
>
> Again, this is stretching it.
>
Really, I don't agree. Have you even read Dune?
> > *
> > The Jedi Nuts. The Benne Gesserit. Too many women, lets make it a
> > boys club and draw on myth by calling them knights, no round table
> > though. The use of light sabres in SW was knives in Dune.
>
> Knight are hardly original to Dune.
>
You miss the point. I was referring to the mixing of ancient elements
(such as weapons, mysticism etc.) with SF. Again, you have to look at
the big picture.
Justin D. Lester
On 25 Feb 1997, Steve Sloan wrote:
>
> Harvey White wrote (about influences on Dune):
>
> > An Outer Limits episode with a monster living under the sand.
> > based on an SF story (by G.R.R Martin?).
>
> WRONG! That story was first published in the early eighties, long
> after DUNE.
How about Tremors with Kevin Bacon. This can definitely be construed as
a rip-off of Dune.
Justin
Nighthawk
>Actually, I *hear* (though it's on my list of movies to check out)
>that Star Wars (ANH) has a lot of parallels with an Akira Kurasowa
>"Lensman," which is based on a story by EE Doc Smith. It also has a
>lot in common with serials from the 30s. And WWII air battle medievial
>movies. And Buck Rogers movies...
Yes, Lucas drew alot of inspiration from Kuosawa's The Hidden Fortress
(GREAT movie, btw).
>Getting the point? Heck, I'm sure that if you took 90% of movies
>today, you could piece together a dozen places they "steal" from. The
>secret of Star Wars is not that its original. It certainly isn't. The
>magic is how it tells its story, in a way that's new and fresh for
>kids, and nostaglic for the Lucas generation.
So true. So true.
>And, when I think about it, considering all the Dune similarities, and
>all the similarities Star Wars shares with older material, I have to
>think, "how much did Herbert steal?"
Another great example is when people talk about how "original" the
story for ID4 is (yes, I've actually heard people make this comment).
It's not original at all. Certain PIECES may be original, but overall,
it's a re-hashed story with stock characters and great spfx.
Just my two bits... Can I have my change please? :)
/------------------------------------------------------\
/ "Leia! Leia's my sister! | Nighthawk \
| Uh... Ben... We've got | nitehawk @ uniserve.com |
\ to talk!" -Luke Skywalker | /
\---------------------------+--------------------------/
/ \
|-O-|
\ /
Justin D. Lester
On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Brian Davies wrote:
>
> On the main thread, calling any influence "Dune" might have had on "Star
> Wars" stealing or plagiarism is to totally misunderstand the creative
> process. Every artist in every field absorbs the images, sounds and
> themes that preceded him/her. Good artists absorb interesting stuff, and
> put these pieces together in new or interesting ways, possibly adding an
> image or two of their own, and put a spin on them that reflects the
> current consciousness. Both Lucas and Herbert did that masterfully, and
> produced classics of their respective media. The claim that "Star Wars"
> was plagiarized from "Dune" isn't any more valid than another silly old
> chestnut, that "Dune" was plagiarized from "Lawrence of Arabia". If you
> want truly original images, go look at cave paintings.
>
Justin
David Stinson
In article <3313ed56...@news.jeack.com.au>, r...@axis.jeack.com.auz
(Gully Foyle) wrote:
: In article <cn4iR1KSMUF=1FH...@transarc.com>,
: Jim_...@transarc.com wrote:
: >
: > r...@axis.jeack.com.auz (Gully Foyle) writes:
: > > The Sardaukar became Stormtroopers (elite troops trained from
: > > childhood under extreme conditions).
: >
: > So is this.
:
: I don't agree with this, if you read about the origins of the
: Sardaukar and Stormtroopers you will see that they are one and the
: same.
Your source is???
The only source ever shown for the Stormtroopers was the Imperial Academy
system.
They're the ARMY of the Empire. Saudrakar were elites, specifically raised
and tailored for the purpose.
: Really? While no doubt Lucas used other material for his
: "inspiration", I think Dune's influences show through SW very clearly,
: too clearly.
Then you need to get out there and read Joseph Campbell's books on the
basis of the archetypes in mythology & legend.
You'd learn a lot.
: > >
: > > Luke Skywalker/The New Hope (Paul/Kwisatz Haderach).
: >
: > The young man who becomes "the new hope" is a major element in
: > mythology and a popular story element. It's hardly original to Dune.
: >
:
: Right, but the entire idea of the Kwisatz Haderach and The New Hope
: taken together with all the other "similarities" can't leave too much
: doubt.
In your mind, with a deliberate attempt to make it so in your opinion. Ther
young hero is the archetype in both. BTW, read Herbert's own comments about
it being a Messiah story dressed up.
: > Star Wars had secondary characters. Dune had secondary characters. One
: > was even a smuggler. Therefore, Star Wars borrowed this from Dune?
: >
:
: Ah, no. What I'm saying is that the characters in Dune were the basis
: for the characters in SW. Read Dune again.
I've read it probably more times than you have. Han Solo is from the basic
Roguish archetype (Captain Blood, Scaramouche, Rick in Casablanca, many
characters in the movies of the 40's - all long before DUNE).
: > The old man/mentor is again a very common element in myth and legend.
: >
:
: Yes it is, but again you are looking at this separate from the other
: elements.
No, you are trying to attribute EVERYTHING to one source in isolation to
try to prove your point. We're pointing out that DUNE didn't create those
archetypes.
Once again, a far closer match is THE HIDDEN FORTRESS (a Kurosawa movie
that Lucas credits as his inspiration).
: > >
: > > Jabba the Hutt in the first movie was a fat guy in black robes but
: > > this was cut from the movie. Sound familiar?
: >
: > He wasn't "cut" from the movie. He was a stand in for a special effect
: > that was to be filled in later. The scene was cut when they couldn't
: > get the effects to work out right.
: >
:
: I've seen the stills and the scene was cut because Lucas wasn't happy
: with it. Why was the stand in, in costume?
Because they wanted something for Harrison to work off of. As an actor, I
can understand it. It was also a good backup in case they changed their
minds.
: > > *
: > > The spice mines of Kessel. Spice.
: >
: > Yeah. This is called a literary reference.
: >
:
: And, it points at Dune.
And OPIUM, Hashish and other drugs - where do you think the reference to
Spice in DUNE came from. Lest we forget that DUNE was a child of the 60's.
:
: Ah it's not a rip off, it's a homage. Bollocks, I'd like to see where
: Lucas says that.
:
In an interview back in 77, I believe. Dune was brught up as a movie plan
for a long time by a variety of sources. Enough that it became a joke
around Hollywood.
: > > *
: > > The Clone Wars. The Butlerian Jihad. What better way to get some
: > > depth into your story than to lift it from somewhere else?
: >
: > Again, this is stretching it.
: >
:
: Really, I don't agree. Have you even read Dune?
Yes, and you would be wrond in your interpretation, given that the
Butlerian Jihad was about INTELLIGENT MACHINES, and led to most of the
machine functions being taken over by biologicals. I suggest YOU re-read
Dune (and take a look at the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA).
I don't see a shortage of intelligent machines in STAR WARS.
: > > *
: > > The Jedi Nuts. The Benne Gesserit. Too many women, lets make it a
: > > boys club and draw on myth by calling them knights, no round table
: > > though. The use of light sabres in SW was knives in Dune.
: >
: > Knight are hardly original to Dune.
: >
:
: You miss the point. I was referring to the mixing of ancient elements
: (such as weapons, mysticism etc.) with SF. Again, you have to look at
: the big picture.
No, we would recommend YOU look at the BIG picture. More than just Dune.
Try a few Space Operas from the 30's, 40's and 50's. Try the Swashbuckler
stories. You'll find the archetypes long before DUNE ever existed.
You might also try reading FRANK Herbert's books ABOUT the writing of Dune.
Morgoth
ID4 original, highly doubtful. If you replaced the aliens with
Japanese, and the F14s with F4s, then it is stock WW2 US
propoganda.
gram
While "Dune" (the novel) itself predated "Star Wars" by a number of
years, "Heretics of Dune" (which I've never gotten around to reading)
was several years after "Star Wars"
Ward Griffiths
--
Q: What do you call a christian who accidently read the bible with his
brain turned on? A: An atheist
gram
Steve Sloan (sl...@geosim.msfc.nasa.gov) wrote:
: Harvey White wrote (about influences on Dune):
:
: > An Outer Limits episode with a monster living under the sand.
: > based on an SF story (by G.R.R Martin?).
:
: WRONG! That story was first published in the early eighties, long
: after DUNE.
I myself distinctly recall some sandsharks or something in an old
episode (early '60s) of the original "Outer Limits". Had the first
Mars expedition wiped out to the last man before the signal could
get to earth at lightspeed. Then the second expedition arrived with
laser communicators which were instantaneous. See, "Star Trek"
wasn't the first TV series to get the science wrong...
Paul Ciszek
Eddie McCreary <fo...@neosoft.com> writes:
>The scene with R2 and 3PO just after the life pop crashes is
>lifted directly from The Fortress. They are other general plot
>similarities also.
I thought R2 and 3PO were doing old Laurel & Hardy routines. ;-)}
Paul Ciszek
ma...@ix.netcom.com (Harvey White) writes:
>>Getting the point? Heck, I'm sure that if you took 90% of movies
>>today, you could piece together a dozen places they "steal" from. The
>>secret of Star Wars is not that its original. It certainly isn't. The
>>magic is how it tells its story, in a way that's new and fresh for
>>kids, and nostaglic for the Lucas generation.
>But only nostalgic if you know where the bodies were buried before he
>dug them up...
My parents enjoyed all of the parts "stolen" from movies of their childhood--
the western saloon where the band stops playing for a few seconds to allow
for armed combat, after which everyone goes back to their drinks; the WWII
dogfights; and the kid desparately wanting to get off of the farm can best
be appriciated by someone who grew up on a farm in the forties-fifties. For
a 1977 audience, the nostalgic elements of SW were quite accessible.
Loner
Regardless of the truth here, I think we should all be thankful George
Lucas didn't just simply do a movie called "Dune," or there would never
have been a Lucasfilm LTD in the first place.
"Dune" was perhaps the worst, most over-wrought sci-fi flick I've ever
polluted my visual receptors with.
Mike
Dorothy J Heydt
In article <davies-2502...@davies.ils.nwu.edu>,
Brian Davies <dav...@ils.nwu.edu> wrote:
[stuff about camera angles in film B copying those in film A]
That's not called "plagiarism." That's called "homage" or
"tribute".
>...Every artist in every field absorbs the images, sounds and
>themes that preceded him/her. Good artists absorb interesting stuff, and
>put these pieces together in new or interesting ways, possibly adding an
>image or two of their own, and put a spin on them that reflects the
>current consciousness. .... >If you
>want truly original images, go look at cave paintings.
Right. Tolkien uses the metaphor of a big cauldron full of
miscellaneous meat and veggies, into which each cook dips and
brings out a different selection. It's in "On Fairy-Stories,"
which in an ideal world everyone would have read before entering
into this discussion.
>Anyway, "Dune" the movie had a lot more problems than just having to avoid
>terrain covered by "Star Wars".
I remember Karen Anderson (Mrs. Poul) coming away from the
premiere muttering, "I already *had* a turkey for Thanksgiving."
Now my kids have the film on a tape which they play from time to
time; walking through the living room, I see bits of it. ("Yes,
dear, I know. It's Patrick Stewart playing Gurney Halleck. It
goes to show how a competent actor can rise above a disastrous
vehicle.")
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djheydt@uclink
(still here for the moment....)
Nealy
In article <5evbgu$l...@uwm.edu>, caps...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Karl Mac Mc
Kinnon) wrote:
> Well, Mortal Kombat stole it's plotline from Star Wars, so there.
>
> -----
> The knowledge of our own eventual mortality keeps us honest.
> -Anton Szandor LaVey
I just have to say that one made me laugh.
Neal Johnson
ne...@mail.bbsnet.com
Karl Mac Mc Kinnon
In article <Pine.A32.3.91.970225...@trumpet.aix.calpoly.edu> "M. Rinley Deeds III" <mde...@trumpet.aix.calpoly.edu> writes:
> - Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries
>
>
>>
>>
>> Well, Mortal Kombat stole it's plotline from Star Wars, so there.
Emperor = Emperor (emperor)
Luke Kang = Luke Skywalker (the New Hope)
Raiden = Ben Kenobi (the Mentor)
Kitana = Laia (the Princess)
Johny Cage = Han Solo (Arogant guy)
Ajax = Lando (token black)
That Guy = Darth Vader (second-in-command).
Keith Morrison
Gully Foyle wrote:
> > > *
> > > The Sardaukar became Stormtroopers (elite troops trained from
> > > childhood under extreme conditions).
> >
> > So is this.
>
> I don't agree with this, if you read about the origins of the
> Sardaukar and Stormtroopers you will see that they are one and the
> same.
What origin of Stormtroopers? I've never seen the official version and
many of the short stories written since indicate Stormtroopers are a
bunch of guys who just happen to be drafted to wear white armour that is
pretty useless.
And taken from the screen I really doubt that Sardaukar would be standing
around bitching about the job and chatting about the latest starship.
> > He wasn't "cut" from the movie. He was a stand in for a special effect
> > that was to be filled in later. The scene was cut when they couldn't
> > get the effects to work out right.
> >
>
> I've seen the stills and the scene was cut because Lucas wasn't happy
> with it. Why was the stand in, in costume?
Because someone in jeans and a T-shirt would ruin the mood?
The scene was cut because they couldn't get the SFX (or the budget to
do it right) to work.
--
Keith Morrison
lone...@nbnet.nb.ca
Nancy Lebovitz
>"Star Wars" and "The Hidden Fortress" have a pair of farmer/soldiers with
>no family, who save a princess from an evil empire with the help of an old
>general. But the most striking similarities aren't even in the characters
>or plot at all. If you look at the camera work, the composition of
>elements in a frame, the construction of scenes, etc. the influence is
>even more obvious. C-3PO and R2-D2 bickering in the Tattoine wastes
>mimics the start of "The Hidden Fortress", camera angle for camera angle,
>and the cinematic wipes used for scene transitions are identical in both
>films.
>
that never made sense to me (like a "Princess" that didn't seem to have
any connection to other royalty), and knowing that a lot was lifted
from other movies makes my universe fit together a little better.
Perhaps Lucas' major leap of creativity was realizing that people
might want to see a special effects movie.
>On the main thread, calling any influence "Dune" might have had on "Star
>Wars" stealing or plagiarism is to totally misunderstand the creative
>process. Every artist in every field absorbs the images, sounds and
>themes that preceded him/her. Good artists absorb interesting stuff, and
>put these pieces together in new or interesting ways, possibly adding an
>image or two of their own, and put a spin on them that reflects the
>current consciousness. Both Lucas and Herbert did that masterfully, and
>produced classics of their respective media. The claim that "Star Wars"
>was plagiarized from "Dune" isn't any more valid than another silly old
>chestnut, that "Dune" was plagiarized from "Lawrence of Arabia". If you
>want truly original images, go look at cave paintings.
>
They probably weren't completely original either....we just don't
have the art they were modelled on.
--
Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net)
October '96 calligraphic button catalogue available by email!
Chad Irby
This whole thing about "SW" as a takeoff of "Dune" is a bit silly- simply
comparing the archetypes in SW/Dune is kind of superficial.
Some folks have made a comment or two about Joseph Campbell's "Hero With A
Thousand Faces"- which was, according to Lucas, his primary literary
inspiration for the Star Wars stories. He also does (as some have noted)
use the basic plot line of "Hidden Fortress."
Lucas has admitted to using elements from both of these sources- but
hasn't said anything (as far as I know) about "Dune" as an influence.
Odd, isn't it?
If you want to talk about science fictions films and people they've ripped
off, look at the output of Akira Kurosawa. About half of everything he's
ever made has been remade as one or another SF film.
--
cirby
Stefano Pagiola
David Stinson wrote:
> You might also try reading FRANK Herbert's books ABOUT the writing of Dune.
Could you post a reference?
--
Stefano Pagiola
850 N Randolph Str No.817, Arlington VA 22203, USA
All opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect
those of my employer
Gully Foyle
>Subject: Re: George Lucas is a thief of thoughts!!!
>From: ma...@ix.netcom.com (Harvey White)
>Date: 1997/02/24
>Message-Id: <3314d223...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
>References: <19970201041...@ladder01.news.aol.com> <bnapier-Ya0240800...@news.ipa.net> <psivasub-030...@psivasub.biology.unb.ca> <33114b73...@news.jeack.com.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-Ascii
>Organization: Laid-Off-Press, Inc
>X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Feb 24 9:44:03 AM PST 1997
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Reply-To: ma...@ix.netcom.com
>Newsgroups: alt.fan.dune,alt.fan.starwars,rec.arts.sf.movies,rec.arts.sf.written
>On Sun, 23 Feb 1997 15:44:46 GMT, r...@axis.jeack.com.auz (Gully Foyle)
>wrote:
><lotsa stuff snipped for bandwidth>
>All you've really proven is that both Lucas and Herbert drew from the
>same kind of mythic background.
So saying that Reservoir Dogs lifted a great deal from City On Fire
isn't valid because the narrative time line has been changed and
movies dealing with bank robberies existed before COF?
>George was exceptionally unoriginal,
>but then again, there're similarities between just about all the books
>by all the authors.
There are, and I'm not claiming that Dune was the only source for his
uh, inspiration.
>The genius is in the reweaving of the threads, to
>come out with something that tells a good story.
Well I'm not sure the story is /that/ good.
Gully Foyle
>Subject: Re: George Lucas is a thief of thoughts!!!
>Date: 1997/02/05
>Message-Id: <Pine.LNX.3.95.97020...@labor1.cs.elte.hu>
>References: <19970201041...@ladder01.news.aol.com> <bnapier-Ya0240800...@news.ipa.net> <psivasub-030...@psivasub.biology.unb.ca> <32f727f...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>Organization: Technical University of Budapest
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Reply-To: b...@cs.elte.hu
>Newsgroups: alt.fan.dune
>Hi !
>I wouldn't call it stealing. I saw an interview with Lucas on the reedited
>Star Wars edition. There he admitted that he really liked Dune and it
>partialy the base of SW.
Well you can call it what you want, but your quoting of the interview
with Lucas is interesting. Hopefully the self appointed geniuses in
these groups will be reading this.
Gully Foyle
>Subject: Re: George Lucas is a thief of thoughts!!!
>Date: 1997/02/26
>Message-Id: <daves-ya02358000...@news.ni.net>
>References: <3313ed56...@news.jeack.com.au>
>Organization: Procom Technology, Inc.
>Newsgroups: alt.fan.dune,alt.fan.starwars,rec.arts.sf.movies,rec.arts.sf.written
> Article Segment 1 of 2
> (Get All 2 Segments)
>In article <3313ed56...@news.jeack.com.au>, r...@axis.jeack.com.auz
>(Gully Foyle) wrote:
>: In article <cn4iR1KSMUF=1FH...@transarc.com>,
>: Jim_...@transarc.com wrote:
>: >
>: > r...@axis.jeack.com.auz (Gully Foyle) writes:
>: > > The Sardaukar became Stormtroopers (elite troops trained from
>: > > childhood under extreme conditions).
>: >
>: > So is this.
>:
>: I don't agree with this, if you read about the origins of the
>: Sardaukar and Stormtroopers you will see that they are one and the
>: same.
>Your source is???
Sorry, it was sometime ago.
>The only source ever shown for the Stormtroopers was the Imperial Academy
>system.
>They're the ARMY of the Empire. Saudrakar were elites, specifically raised
>and tailored for the purpose.
>
Well from memory, the stormtroopers where raised from childhood to be
crack troops of the empire. I believe their training was done on a
planet of extreme conditions. Maybe you can work it out from there?
>: Really? While no doubt Lucas used other material for his
>: "inspiration", I think Dune's influences show through SW very clearly,
>: too clearly.
>Then you need to get out there and read Joseph Campbell's books on the
>basis of the archetypes in mythology & legend.
>You'd learn a lot.
Not as much as you have yet to learn.
All you are telling me is that Lucas drew influence from many
different sources. I wouldn't even dispute that. The entire trilogy is
a derivative mess. The point that I'm making is that he used Dune as
the blueprint for the basic plot. That he overlaid many other ideas
and themes over that is unquestionable.
>: > >
>: > > Luke Skywalker/The New Hope (Paul/Kwisatz Haderach).
>: >
>: > The young man who becomes "the new hope" is a major element in
>: > mythology and a popular story element. It's hardly original to Dune.
>: >
>:
>: Right, but the entire idea of the Kwisatz Haderach and The New Hope
>: taken together with all the other "similarities" can't leave too much
>: doubt.
>In your mind, with a deliberate attempt to make it so in your opinion. Ther
>young hero is the archetype in both. BTW, read Herbert's own comments about
>it being a Messiah story dressed up.
Thanks for telling me, as if it wasn't obvious enough. When are you
going to invent the wheel?
>: > Star Wars had secondary characters. Dune had secondary characters. One
>: > was even a smuggler. Therefore, Star Wars borrowed this from Dune?
>: >
>:
>: Ah, no. What I'm saying is that the characters in Dune were the basis
>: for the characters in SW. Read Dune again.
>I've read it probably more times than you have. Han Solo is from the basic
>Roguish archetype (Captain Blood, Scaramouche, Rick in Casablanca, many
>characters in the movies of the 40's - all long before DUNE).
So you have proof for this? Just to spell it out for you; I'm not
referring to the fact that this archetype existed before Dune.
>: > The old man/mentor is again a very common element in myth and legend.
>: >
>:
>: Yes it is, but again you are looking at this separate from the other
>: elements.
>No, you are trying to attribute EVERYTHING to one source in isolation to
>try to prove your point. We're pointing out that DUNE didn't create those
>archetypes.
No shit. I wasn't trying to show that at all, I simply posted a list
that noted character and plot elements from Dune which appeared in SW.
You are the one who insists that I'm saying Herbert invented these
archetypes.
>Once again, a far closer match is THE HIDDEN FORTRESS (a Kurosawa movie
>that Lucas credits as his inspiration).
>
Among many others.
>: > >
>: > > Jabba the Hutt in the first movie was a fat guy in black robes but
>: > > this was cut from the movie. Sound familiar?
>: >
>: > He wasn't "cut" from the movie. He was a stand in for a special effect
>: > that was to be filled in later. The scene was cut when they couldn't
>: > get the effects to work out right.
>: >
>:
>: I've seen the stills and the scene was cut because Lucas wasn't happy
>: with it. Why was the stand in, in costume?
>Because they wanted something for Harrison to work off of. As an actor, I
>can understand it. It was also a good backup in case they changed their
>minds.
If you say so, you /are/ an actor after all.
>
>: > > *
>: > > The spice mines of Kessel. Spice.
>: >
>: > Yeah. This is called a literary reference.
>: >
>:
>: And, it points at Dune.
>And OPIUM, Hashish and other drugs - where do you think the reference to
>Spice in DUNE came from. Lest we forget that DUNE was a child of the 60's.
Excellent, you really are doing well.
>:
>: Ah it's not a rip off, it's a homage. Bollocks, I'd like to see where
>: Lucas says that.
>:
>In an interview back in 77, I believe. Dune was brught up as a movie plan
>for a long time by a variety of sources. Enough that it became a joke
>around Hollywood.
>: > > *
>: > > The Clone Wars. The Butlerian Jihad. What better way to get some
>: > > depth into your story than to lift it from somewhere else?
>: >
>: > Again, this is stretching it.
>: >
>:
>: Really, I don't agree. Have you even read Dune?
>Yes, and you would be wrond in your interpretation, given that the
>Butlerian Jihad was about INTELLIGENT MACHINES, and led to most of the
>machine functions being taken over by biologicals. I suggest YOU re-read
>Dune (and take a look at the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA).
Thanks.
>I don't see a shortage of intelligent machines in STAR WARS.
That's because it was the /clone/ wars. Literal mindedness seems to be
a disease, Lucas is smart enough to disguise his sources, not too well
but it seems to work in your case.
>: > > *
>: > > The Jedi Nuts. The Benne Gesserit. Too many women, lets make it a
>: > > boys club and draw on myth by calling them knights, no round table
>: > > though. The use of light sabres in SW was knives in Dune.
>: >
>: > Knight are hardly original to Dune.
>: >
>:
>: You miss the point. I was referring to the mixing of ancient elements
>: (such as weapons, mysticism etc.) with SF. Again, you have to look at
>: the big picture.
>No, we would recommend YOU look at the BIG picture. More than just Dune.
>Try a few Space Operas from the 30's, 40's and 50's. Try the Swashbuckler
>stories. You'll find the archetypes long before DUNE ever existed.
Oh, here we go again with your big brain. You worked this all out on
your own? Anymore statements of the blatantly obvious that you want
to get off your chest?
>You might also try reading FRANK Herbert's books ABOUT the writing of Dune.
One day real soon. In the mean time I recommend you take a break from
saving the universe for everyone.
Gully Foyle
>Subject: Re: George Lucas is a thief of thoughts!!!
>Date: 1997/02/26
>Message-Id: <5f208g$3...@news.indy.net>
>References: <19970201041...@ladder01.news.aol.com> <bnapier-ya0240800...@news.ipa.net> <psivasub-030...@psivasub.biology.unb.ca> <33114b73...@news.jeack.com.au> <cn4iR1KSMUF=1FH...@transarc.com>
>Organization: IndyNet - Indys Internet Gateway (in...@indy.net)
>Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.movies
> Article Segment 1 of 2
> (Get All 2 Segments)
>>>
>>> Jabba the Hutt in the first movie was a fat guy in black robes but
>>> this was cut from the movie. Sound familiar?
> He didn't have black robes. And I don't recall him being
> anybody's father or grandfather.
No, Darth Vader got that bit.
>>> *
>>> The Jedi Nuts. The Benne Gesserit. Too many women, lets make it a
>>> boys club and draw on myth by calling them knights, no round table
>>> though.
> And here I thought they were ripoffs of Arthurian legend
> combined with martial arts myth and various eastern religions.
So that rules out Lucas going to Dune and lifting it from there? I
believe lucas took a short cut. Of course others argue that he is a
story telling genius to rival Tolkien, who did his own research. I
doubt it.
> Then again, should we discuss the religions and myths from
> which Herbert got some of his ideas.
What exactly is your point?
>>> Obi-Wan uses something a lot like the Voice to get past some troopers
>>> in SW. This scene is very similar to the one in which Jessica gets the
>>> Harkonnens to release Paul.
> Scenes where heroes have telepathic mind control powers will
> tend to have similarities to other scenes where the heroes have
> telepathic mind control powers.
Oh is that all it was.
> Now, with all of this said and done, I believe you do
> present enough similarities to acknowledge that Lucas was
> influenced by "Dune." The question is whether the
> similarities are enough to yell 'ripoff' or if they just
> gave him enough of a boost to jog his own creativity?
Well I'm not saying SW is a carbon copy of Dune and I agree that his
sources are many.
> Did he simply create something of his own that has vague
> similarities which he acknowledges by his literary references
> to "Dune"? I believe the latter. I don't believe he ripped
> off "Dune" anymore than I believe he ripped off "Flash Gordon"
> or that "Battlestar: Galactica" ripped him off. When asked
> if "Galactica" ripped off SW, Lorne Greene replied, "Is
> 'Star Wars' a ripoff of 'Flash Gordon?' Let's just say it
> borrows from the genre." Exactly. Yes, SW was influenced
> by "Dune" but the similarities are so vague that it's merely
> a similarity of sub-genre and a certain style. I would have
> said that the similarities between SW and Flash Gordon or SW
> and Arthurian legend were far greater than the similarities
> to Dune. Luke is Arthur; Han is Lancelot; Leia is Guinevere;
> Obi=Wan is obviously Merlin; Vader is Morgan Le Faye as a male;
> etc. These similarities aren't 100% but they are as
> close as the ones you present.
I disagree on that point, while you can draw similarities between the
Arthurian legend and SW, the Dune SW link goes beyond characters to
include other plot elements. Again I'm not saying Dune was the only
source for the entire trilogy. I am saying it was the foundation which
was overlaid with many other elements drawn from a variety of sources.
To clarify for the slow people out there; SW is not a carbon copy of
Dune.
Gully Foyle
>Subject: Re: George Lucas is a thief of thoughts!!!
>Date: 1997/02/21
>Message-Id: <330d2...@news.inxpress.net>
>Distribution: world
>References: <19970201041...@ladder01.news.aol.com> <bnapier-Ya0240800...@news.ipa.net> <psivasub-030...@psivasub.biology.unb.ca> <32F7D2...@hkstar.com> <psivasub-050...@psivasub.biology.unb.ca> <5dft7u$unr$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu> <5dq78j$4...@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk>
>Organization: None
>Newsgroups: alt.fan.dune
>About the sand thing in Return of the Jedi:
>It was taken after a large Ant Lion, but 'movisized' with teeth, etc.. In the
>new released version it actually has a head of some sort and more tentacles.
>I don't see a worm resemblence at all, other than it was 'big' and lived in
>the 'sand' ..
You are being to literal minded. I think it would have been really
stupid of Lucas not to have obscured his precise influences. Which he
has.
>As for the Star Wars movies themselves:
>The entire storyline was very simple, very much your *standard* 'rescue the
>damsel in distress by a young knight' crusade.
Of course, Lucas is smart enough to know that fluff makes money.
>There was nothing really
>original about the first movie other than the special effects at the time were
>INCREDIBLY good for what people were used to. And the characters were
>very well written, and the roles played very well.
Boy are you being generous.
>I am sure Lucas has read
>Dune, and I am also sure it may have stemmed some thoughts and ideas
>to incorperate into his movies.
He has.
Gully Foyle
>Subject: Re: George Lucas is a thief of thoughts!!!
>Date: 1997/02/23
>Message-Id: <331001...@mars.utm.edu>
>References: <19970201041...@ladder01.news.aol.com> <bnapier-Ya0240800...@news.ipa.net> <psivasub-030...@psivasub.biology.unb.ca> <33114b73...@news.jeack.com.au>
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>I would like to inject a thought on the matter. what if and i know these
>questions are unfair but what if Dune had taking on the popularity of
>Star Wars and Sw the popularity of dune. I believe We would have a much
>different world today.
I think you would have had to have a very different world to start
with.
>A generation grew up on popSciFi a.k.a Sw(which I
>have nothing against they were enjoyable movies) and came away with a
>incomplete view of things. If our society had embraced dune and emulated
> its characters where would we be. If children grew up fantacizing about
>being mentats and Bene Gesserits instead of wookies and drones. just a
>thought i guess probably wouldn't be a difference at all. maybe it was
>just a sign of our society the choice that was made and if it had been
>different then maybe I be complaining that they chose dune over Sw.
Dune is a bit too deep to have generated the sort of following that SW
has. Even if Ridley Scott would have directed it.
Will&Jane Duquette
Somebody wrote:
>: I don't agree with this, if you read about the origins of the
>: Sardaukar and Stormtroopers you will see that they are one and the
>: same.
All I can say is, if Stormtroopers were Sardaukar, Luke would have
been toast.
--
Will Duquette | It's amazing what you can
duqu...@cogent.net | do with the right tools.
http://www.cogent.net/~duquette | -- Me
Old Toby
Gully Foyle wrote:
>
> All you are telling me is that Lucas drew influence from many
> different sources. I wouldn't even dispute that. The entire trilogy is
> a derivative mess. The point that I'm making is that he used Dune as
> the blueprint for the basic plot. That he overlaid many other ideas
> and themes over that is unquestionable.
The basic plot?
Dune's basic plot: A young noble's family is betrayed, he flees
to a tribe of barbarians, becomes their leader, and executes his
revenge, becoming de facto emperor and unleashing his barbarian
allies to burn and pillage the galaxy in the name of their religion.
Star Wars' basic plot: A young farmer leaves his home, saves a
princess, and joins a rebellion against the empire. He goes on
to defeat the emperor and free the galaxy from tyrany and opression.
Old Toby
Least Known Dog on the Net
jru...@ix.netcom.com
r...@axis.jeack.com.auz (Gully Foyle) wrote:
>Well from memory, the stormtroopers where raised from childhood to be
>crack troops of the empire. I believe their training was done on a
>planet of extreme conditions. Maybe you can work it out from there?
Maybe you are confusing SW and Dune :) Seriously, I can't ever
remember such a fact being stated - certainly it isn't in the movies.
Can anyone provide a source here?
>All you are telling me is that Lucas drew influence from many
>different sources. I wouldn't even dispute that. The entire trilogy is
>a derivative mess. The point that I'm making is that he used Dune as
>the blueprint for the basic plot. That he overlaid many other ideas
>and themes over that is unquestionable.
Look. You can credibly argue that Lucas got the idea for a desert
planet from Dune. In other respects the plots bear NO resemblance
to each other. This whole idea of Luke and Paul being similar is just
silly. The similarity ends with both being young and destined for
greatness.
>>: > > *
>>: > > The spice mines of Kessel. Spice.
Where - anywhere mind you - in any of the SW movies or books is
'Spice' attributed with any of the qualities that it has in Dune? Did
Lucas lift the idea of 'Spice mines' from Dune? Probably. Did he
lift the idea of 'Spice'? Nope. Calling this a plot similarity is
like calling a manicure major surgery.
>>: > > The Clone Wars. The Butlerian Jihad. What better way to get some
>>: > > depth into your story than to lift it from somewhere else?
Bearing in mind that the only similarity between the two is that they
were wars that happened before the events in the movie (Oh, gosh, can
you tell me how many SciFi/Fantasy settings make frequent reference to
mysterious past conflicts? I knew you could.)..... Looking at the
issue a little more closely. The BJ is ancient history. It is
referenced only in the context of explaining why there are no complex
machines and why people have specialized to do the functions a
computer could do so easily. Later in the Dune series this becomes
more important as the conflict heats up between those who wish to
bring back the machines and those who do not. The CW on the other
hand are presented as a much more immediate happening. Several of the
principles in the story participated in the conflict. The
implication is that this conflict had much to do with the fall of the
Jedi and the Emperors rise. Now, perhaps you would like to try again
explaining how the above amounts to anything more than an utterly
trivial plot similarity.
>>: > > The Jedi Nuts. The Benne Gesserit. Too many women, lets make it a
>>: > > boys club and draw on myth by calling them knights, no round table
>>: > > though. The use of light sabres in SW was knives in Dune.
More silliness. Allow me to inquire - how is the use of LS's by Jedi
(BG equivalents in your mind) related to the use of knife fighting as
a method of traditional combat for the nobility? Your argument might
hold some water if Han and Luke and all the other 'yahoos' were
carting around LS's in addition to blasters. Since that isn't the
case this 'similarity' really boils down to 'gee, the story would be
better if I gave the characters some excuse to get in close and duel
just like all those guys used to do with those cool swords'. This is
called a plot device - not a plot similarity. Why do you think so
many movies feature guys who have fantastic levels of martial arts
training for no really good reason other than that it gives characters
a good excuse to have a big fight?
Silly, silly, silly.
Rusty
Old Toby
Gully Foyle wrote:
>
> >>> The Jedi Nuts. The Benne Gesserit. Too many women, lets make it a
> >>> boys club and draw on myth by calling them knights, no round table
> >>> though.
This comparison is especially rediculous.
The Jedi are an order of mystic warriors who fight for justice and
peace. The Bene Gesserit are an order of mystic women who have
manipulated society for centuries in order to produce a messiah
type figure, and are willing to use any means necessary to achieve
this.
What is the great connection between them, that they are mystics,
or that they are orders? They have completly different outlooks
and purposes.
Henry Vogel
Both Star Wars and Dune drew very heavily on standard plot and
character archetypes. Both did it very well. However, calling Star
Wars a rip off of Dune indicates that your view of the world
restricted by blinders. Remove them and see what you're missing.
Henry
David Stinson
In article <33152b9c...@news.jeack.com.au>, r...@axis.jeack.com.auz
(Gully Foyle) wrote:
: >From: da...@procom.com (David Stinson)
: >Your source is???
:
: Sorry, it was sometime ago.
Then I would suggest you check them. Mine were on my shelf.
: Well from memory, the stormtroopers where raised from childhood to be
: crack troops of the empire. I believe their training was done on a
: planet of extreme conditions. Maybe you can work it out from there?
No reference to this appears in any Star Wars book I've seen (unless its in
the Role Playing Game guide - for which you could hardly blame George
Lucas, since it was written 15 years _after_ START WARS). Actually except
for ONE LINE in STAR WARS - they have never been shown to be crack troops
at all (and everyone laughs at the fact that Ben's line refers to their
accuracy in hitting something, but they miss the heroes amazingly well.
: >: Really? While no doubt Lucas used other material for his
: >: "inspiration", I think Dune's influences show through SW very clearly,
: >: too clearly.
:
: >Then you need to get out there and read Joseph Campbell's books on the
: >basis of the archetypes in mythology & legend.
:
: >You'd learn a lot.
:
: Not as much as you have yet to learn.
Insults don't do your argument much good. Especially as I have shown that I
seem to have read Herbert's material more than you have, from the evidence
of your arguments.
: All you are telling me is that Lucas drew influence from many
: different sources. I wouldn't even dispute that. The entire trilogy is
: a derivative mess. The point that I'm making is that he used Dune as
: the blueprint for the basic plot. That he overlaid many other ideas
: and themes over that is unquestionable.
No, you are the one who is saying that DUNE was the primary basis and you
are the one rejecting that DUNE had sources that Star Wars drew from.
You've made a decision and are justifying by OPINION. Not from the
information presented.
Might I suggest you read Lucas's book while you''re at it. It delineates
the sources he used (space operas, THE HIDDEN FORTRESS, a lot of science
fiction of the 40's). DUNE itself was not particularly original in its
concepts. It was its EXECUTION that was unique. And that comes from
Herbert's OWN statements on the subject.
: >: > >
: >: > > Luke Skywalker/The New Hope (Paul/Kwisatz Haderach).
: >: >
: >: > The young man who becomes "the new hope" is a major element in
: >: > mythology and a popular story element. It's hardly original to Dune.
: >: >
: >:
: >: Right, but the entire idea of the Kwisatz Haderach and The New Hope
: >: taken together with all the other "similarities" can't leave too much
: >: doubt.
:
:
: >In your mind, with a deliberate attempt to make it so in your opinion. Ther
: >young hero is the archetype in both. BTW, read Herbert's own comments about
: >it being a Messiah story dressed up.
:
: Thanks for telling me, as if it wasn't obvious enough. When are you
: going to invent the wheel?
When are you going to argue with FACTS, not opinion. We;ve shown that there
were plenty of sources for the imagery in Star Wars that did not require
DUNE, and in fact predated it. These are the same sources stated by George
Lucas. And, it should be noted, some of the sources included Leigh
Brackett's SF stories of the 50's (Leigh Brackett was one of the writers of
SW:ESB, and an acclaimed SF writer in her own right)
: >: > Star Wars had secondary characters. Dune had secondary characters. One
: >: > was even a smuggler. Therefore, Star Wars borrowed this from Dune?
: >: >
: >:
: >: Ah, no. What I'm saying is that the characters in Dune were the basis
: >: for the characters in SW. Read Dune again.
:
:
: >I've read it probably more times than you have. Han Solo is from the basic
: >Roguish archetype (Captain Blood, Scaramouche, Rick in Casablanca, many
: >characters in the movies of the 40's - all long before DUNE).
:
: So you have proof for this? Just to spell it out for you; I'm not
: referring to the fact that this archetype existed before Dune.
No, YOU are stating that he is using specifically the ones from DUNE.
Most of whom are from the basic roguish stereotype in the first place.
Duncan Idaho is the basic swashbuckler. Gurney Halleck is the Sensei. Han
Solo is the rogue (btw, an analog to his character is in THE HIDDEN
FORTRESS, which -as we have pointed out before- is what George Lucas
credits as the source for much of STAR WARS)
What we have been saying is that you have gone out of your way to convince
yourself that DUNE and only DUNE is the basis for STAR WARS. Which is just
not the case.
If you are going to argue this further, you'll have to use different
arguments to support your case. The ones you have been using are primarily
OPINION.
: >: Yes it is, but again you are looking at this separate from the other
: >: elements.
:
:
: >No, you are trying to attribute EVERYTHING to one source in isolation to
: >try to prove your point. We're pointing out that DUNE didn't create those
: >archetypes.
:
: No shit. I wasn't trying to show that at all, I simply posted a list
: that noted character and plot elements from Dune which appeared in SW.
: You are the one who insists that I'm saying Herbert invented these
: archetypes.
No, you said that the DUNE characters were absolutely the sources. We've
pointed out that they weren't original to DUNE.
: >Once again, a far closer match is THE HIDDEN FORTRESS (a Kurosawa movie
: >that Lucas credits as his inspiration).
: >
:
: Among many others.
Agreed.
: >: > >
: >: > > Jabba the Hutt in the first movie was a fat guy in black robes but
: >: > > this was cut from the movie. Sound familiar?
: >: >
: >: > He wasn't "cut" from the movie. He was a stand in for a special effect
: >: > that was to be filled in later. The scene was cut when they couldn't
: >: > get the effects to work out right.
: >: >
: >:
: >: I've seen the stills and the scene was cut because Lucas wasn't happy
: >: with it. Why was the stand in, in costume?
:
: >Because they wanted something for Harrison to work off of. As an actor, I
: >can understand it. It was also a good backup in case they changed their
: >minds.
:
: If you say so, you /are/ an actor after all.
Actually a Stunt Actor. Part time, with a couple of movies to my credit.
This is my regular job to pay the bills. And I've been that stand-in on a
few occasions.
It provides the actor who is being featured with something to actually
react to (especially at the time, when CGI was not a major influence in
film). Harrison had the actor to know where to step and where to pay
attention to while doing his spiel.
: >
: >: > > *
: >: > > The spice mines of Kessel. Spice.
: >: >
: >: > Yeah. This is called a literary reference.
: >: >
: >:
: >: And, it points at Dune.
:
: >And OPIUM, Hashish and other drugs - where do you think the reference to
: >Spice in DUNE came from. Lest we forget that DUNE was a child of the 60's.
:
: Excellent, you really are doing well.
Ah, sarcasm, you need to improve your skills at it, however.
<ABOUT THE BUTLERIAN JIHAD>
: >: Really, I don't agree. Have you even read Dune?
:
: >Yes, and you would be wrond in your interpretation, given that the
: >Butlerian Jihad was about INTELLIGENT MACHINES, and led to most of the
: >machine functions being taken over by biologicals. I suggest YOU re-read
: >Dune (and take a look at the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA).
:
: Thanks.
:
: >I don't see a shortage of intelligent machines in STAR WARS.
:
: That's because it was the /clone/ wars. Literal mindedness seems to be
: a disease, Lucas is smart enough to disguise his sources, not too well
: but it seems to work in your case.
You're drawing a TOTALLY unsupported argument there - given that the CLone
Wars till now was a reference only (with a side note in several of Zahn's
sequels).
You are presenting a case without evidence as to its exclusivity to the
association.
Clone-like warriors also appeared in quite a few Space operas PRE-Dune. And
the clone nature of the Sardraukar was not presented until the late
(post-STAR WARS) novels, as I remember - at least until DUNE MESSIAH).
BTW, if you want to convince someone of your argument, then you need to
learn how to support your statements with more than opinions. That's the
basis of debate and discussion.
: >: > > *
: >: You miss the point. I was referring to the mixing of ancient elements
: >: (such as weapons, mysticism etc.) with SF. Again, you have to look at
: >: the big picture.
:
: >No, we would recommend YOU look at the BIG picture. More than just Dune.
: >Try a few Space Operas from the 30's, 40's and 50's. Try the Swashbuckler
: >stories. You'll find the archetypes long before DUNE ever existed.
:
: Oh, here we go again with your big brain. You worked this all out on
: your own? Anymore statements of the blatantly obvious that you want
: to get off your chest?
Any more sarcasm, showing that you have yet to prove your basic premise????
: >You might also try reading FRANK Herbert's books ABOUT the writing of Dune.
:
: One day real soon. In the mean time I recommend you take a break from
: saving the universe for everyone.
And I would recommend that you stop accusing writers of copying without
better arguments.
Argument is an INTELLIGENT process. Learn how to do it properly and you
might actually win a point.
David Stinson
In article <33145D...@worldbank.org>, Stefano Pagiola
<spag...@worldbank.org> wrote:
: David Stinson wrote:
: > You might also try reading FRANK Herbert's books ABOUT the writing of Dune.
:
: Could you post a reference?
:
There are quite a few in the forewords to some editions of the various DUNE
books. Others appear in EYE. Several appear in the DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA.
Henry Vogel
r...@axis.jeack.com.auz (Gully Foyle) wrote:
<snipping a lot of stuff>
>>They're the ARMY of the Empire. Saudrakar were elites, specifically raised
>>and tailored for the purpose.
>>
>Well from memory, the stormtroopers where raised from childhood to be
>crack troops of the empire. I believe their training was done on a
>planet of extreme conditions. Maybe you can work it out from there?
Perhaps you've heard of Sparta? If not, try looking it up. I'd
credit that as the inspiration for both Saudrakar and Stormtroopers.
As for all the other, long winded arguments about how Star Wars is
simply Dune retold, I have one question:
If this is so blatantly obvious, why didn't Frank Herbert sue Lucas
over it? After all, no writer likes to see his work "stolen" --
particularly if it makes the supposed thief rich. For that matter,
has Frank Herbert even been on record as claiming that Star Wars is a
Dune rip off? If he hasn't, then aren't you presuming quite a lot by
taking a position even Herbert didn't have?
Henry
Matt Austern
nan...@universe.digex.net (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
> >I wouldn't say "very loosely" -- there are a lot of changes, but both
> >"Star Wars" and "The Hidden Fortress" have a pair of farmer/soldiers with
> >no family, who save a princess from an evil empire with the help of an old
> >general. But the most striking similarities aren't even in the characters
> >or plot at all. If you look at the camera work, the composition of
> >elements in a frame, the construction of scenes, etc. the influence is
> >even more obvious. C-3PO and R2-D2 bickering in the Tattoine wastes
> >mimics the start of "The Hidden Fortress", camera angle for camera angle,
> >and the cinematic wipes used for scene transitions are identical in both
> >films.
> >
> I'm glad to read this...there were things about the plot of Star Wars
> that never made sense to me (like a "Princess" that didn't seem to have
> any connection to other royalty), and knowing that a lot was lifted
> from other movies makes my universe fit together a little better.
I certainly don't want to discourage anyone from watching "The Hidden
Fortress", or any other Kurosawa for that matter. Kurosawa is a
wonderful director, and Toshiro Mifune is a wonderful actor. I don't
think, though, that it will give tremendously much insight into "Star
Wars".
George Lucas freely acknowledges that he was inspired in part by
Kurosawa, and, indeed, there are some obvious similarities. There are
some glaring differences, though, too. It's easy to see a few shots
and characters that were taken from "The Hidden Fortress", but in most
ways the two movies are unrelated. "Star Wars" isn't simply samurai
in space.
The shots that come from "The Triumph of the Will" are just as obvious
as the ones that come from "The Hidden Fortress". And if you're
looking for a single major source of inspiration for Lucas, I think
you probably ought not to look either to German or to Japan but to the
American tradition of the weekly adventure serial.
David Stinson
And frankly, from a short point of view - Star Wars resembles several other
works (hell, it resembles THE CRIMSON PIRATE with Burt Lancaster) alot
more than DUNE.
BTW, desert worlds in this mythos were also such locales as BARSOOM (John
Carter of Mars series by Edgar Rice Burroughs), DEATHWORLD (Harry Harrison)
and other SF/Fantasy works which also bear more resemblance to STAR WARS
than does DUNE.
Can we just end this thread now?
P & H
On Thu, 27 Feb 1997 10:00:00 -0500, Old Toby <tbur...@umich.edu>
wrote:
I think you can look closer in time and space for the real
comparisons. Stormtroopers-German soliders (espeically SS) of WW2.
And I recall that there was a TV program "The making of Star Wars"
that said that lucas used several movies and real footage of areial
combat to choregraph his x-wing/Tie fighter duels.
H
Reality is in our minds. All else is a delusion.
Virtual reality is just a figment of the illusion.
Robert Whelan
Gully Foyle (r...@axis.jeack.com.auz) wrote:
: >: > > Jabba the Hutt in the first movie was a fat guy in black robes but
: >: > > this was cut from the movie. Sound familiar?
: >: >
: >: > He wasn't "cut" from the movie. He was a stand in for a special effect
: >: > that was to be filled in later. The scene was cut when they couldn't
: >: > get the effects to work out right.
: >: >
: >:
: >: I've seen the stills and the scene was cut because Lucas wasn't happy
: >: with it. Why was the stand in, in costume?
: >Because they wanted something for Harrison to work off of. As an actor, I
: >can understand it. It was also a good backup in case they changed their
: >minds.
This is ridiculous. If Lucas was unhappy with the scene, because maybe
he wanted an alien delivering the threats to Solo, instead of a human, the
scene was replaced by the GREEDO scene. Check it out. The dialogue is almost
line for line identical with the Greedo scene. They cut the Jabba scene,
and replaced it with the Greedo scene. They should never have put it back
in.
x
Lawrence Watt-Evans
On 27 Feb 1997 15:20:49 -0500, rwh...@dorsai.org (Robert Whelan)
wrote:
> This is ridiculous. If Lucas was unhappy with the scene, because maybe
>he wanted an alien delivering the threats to Solo, instead of a human, the
>scene was replaced by the GREEDO scene. Check it out. The dialogue is almost
>line for line identical with the Greedo scene. They cut the Jabba scene,
>and replaced it with the Greedo scene. They should never have put it back
>in.
Except that Lucas himself put it back, not any mysterious "they." In
an interview in the latest STARLOG he says that he cut the Jabba scene
because they didn't have the time or money to finish it with the
matted-in stop-motion animation they had originally planned, and
because the Greedo scene, WHICH WAS ALREADY THERE, covered everything
essential.
I know the dialogue's almost the same; I suspect that when the
decision was made to drop the Jabba scene some lines got added to the
Greedo scene. But Lucas says, unquestionably, that BOTH scenes were
originally planned.
TOUCHED BY THE GODS: Hardcover, Tor Books, November 1997
The Misenchanted Page: http://www.sff.net/people/LWE/ Updated 2/7/97
Beyond Comics opens 3/1/97 at Lakeforest Mall, Gaithersburg MD (we hope!)
Jim Yingst
In article <Pine.SOL.3.95.97022...@rac4.wam.umd.edu>,
Glenn Gray <grg...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
>On Sun, 23 Feb 1997, Gully Foyle wrote:
>> While in college he apparently read all four (back then there were
>> only 4 books and I think they are still multiplying) Dune books in a
>> few days, and the profits from Star Wars prove that reading is good
>> A quick tip: if you're not familiar with the material, don't read the
>> SW trilogy just watch the movies and save some time for the better
>> stuff. As for Dune, definitely read the first book, give the rest a
>> try if you have the stamina. They really come down to being an
>> acquired taste.
> Excuse me? The 4th Dune book, God Emperor, was not published until the
>80's. Lucas attended college in the 60's, I believe. Please explain how
>Lucas could have read all 4 while in college?
For that matter, _Children of Dune_ wasn't out until 1976, well after
Lucas left scool. However, assuming "Gully Foyle" isn't just making this
up, I offer the following rationalization:
Dune: Book I - Dune
Book II - Muad'Dib
Book III - The Prophet
Dune Messiah
Four books, sort of, completed by 1969. (-:
Jim Yingst
ha...@u.arizona.edu
Redd-Beard
Nighthawk wrote:
>
> Another great example is when people talk about how "original" the
> story for ID4 is (yes, I've actually heard people make this comment).
> It's not original at all. Certain PIECES may be original, but overall,
> it's a re-hashed story with stock characters and great spfx.
>
haha I have to agree ID4 is far from original just look at the way they
killed the aliens by planting a virus in the computer of the mother ship
just an updated version of the way the war of the worlds aliens died by
earth germs
redd
Londo Mollari
da...@procom.com (David Stinson) wrote:
[and cut]
> : Well from memory, the stormtroopers where raised from childhood to be
> : crack troops of the empire. I believe their training was done on a
> : planet of extreme conditions. Maybe you can work it out from there?
>
> No reference to this appears in any Star Wars book I've seen (unless its in
> the Role Playing Game guide - for which you could hardly blame George
> Lucas, since it was written 15 years _after_ START WARS). Actually except
> for ONE LINE in STAR WARS - they have never been shown to be crack troops
> at all (and everyone laughs at the fact that Ben's line refers to their
> accuracy in hitting something, but they miss the heroes amazingly well.
[snip]
Actually Ben said that no one was a precise as the stormtroopers.
Now as anyone who has taken high school physics or chemistry should
know, precision means that your shots are all close together whether
or not they actually hit the target. Stormtroopers are precise,
not accurate.
:-)
--
"It is our blasphemy which has made us great, and will
sustain us, and which the gods secretly admire in us."
- Roger Zelazny
Christopher B. Browne
On 28 Feb 1997 00:40:06 GMT, Doug Mertaugh <mert...@indy.net> posted:
>r...@axis.jeack.com.auz (Gully Foyle) wrote:
>>>Subject: Re: George Lucas is a thief of thoughts!!!
>>> Now, with all of this said and done, I believe you do
>>> present enough similarities to acknowledge that Lucas was
>>> influenced by "Dune." The question is whether the
>>> similarities are enough to yell 'ripoff' or if they just
>>> gave him enough of a boost to jog his own creativity?
>>
>>Well I'm not saying SW is a carbon copy of Dune and I agree that his
>>sources are many.
>
>>Arthurian legend and SW, the Dune SW link goes beyond characters to
>>include other plot elements. Again I'm not saying Dune was the only
>>source for the entire trilogy. I am saying it was the foundation which
>>was overlaid with many other elements drawn from a variety of sources.
>>To clarify for the slow people out there; SW is not a carbon copy of
>>Dune.
>
> to the source to apply the word "thief"?
While there are more parallels than coincidence would allow one to expect, I
have a very hard time with the notion that Star Wars is at any level
"basically a rip-off of Dune."
There are similarities in *minor* plot elements; I don't see similarities at
the "major" level.
Both movies do have "desert planet" elements; in the case of Dune, this is a
*crucial* aspect that applies to the story in many ways, influencing things
from before any Atreides visits until the day that the Honored Matres
utterly destroy it in the wake of fear of Duncan Idaho and Miles Teg.
In the case of Star Wars, Luke leaves Tatooine with the regret of a dead
aunt and uncle, but little other concern. There may be further references
to Tatooine in the "Star Wars Literature;" the saga certainly doesn't seem
to be wrapped up in a desert planet.
Star Wars has "Jedi Knights" that seem rather similar to the knights of
Arthurian legend; I don't see any real equivalent in the Dune universe.
Dune indeed has "powerful leaders" with various martial, mental, and moral
powers (Bashirs, mentats, and arguably the Bene Gesserit on the "moral"
side); none of these seem to embody the totality that I would think of as a
"knight."
The hidden source of power in Star Wars is "The Force," which is a sort of
spirituality that the "enlightened" can access anywhere. The nearest Dune
equivalent is spice, which is represented as, by itself, the source of an
economy.
On that note, "economy" is something that displays a *major* difference
between the nature of Dune and of Star Wars. The economic potence of the
spice is made clear, and economic behaviour is indeed displayed in the Dune
saga. On the other hand, it is eminently unclear where the major economic
structures are that would benefit from the strengthening of the Empire. The
only economic activity we really see comes in the form of smugglers,
disreputable traders, and desert farmers. Few wars seem to happen for
purely "political" or "religious" reasons in the world we see. Powerful
economic forces tend to be in operation, in the background at the very
least.
A *major* difference is that Star Wars certainly glorifies robots; that
comes in stark contrast to the Butlerian jihad against "thinking machines,"
and the great suspicion that remains against such.
There may be spots of similarity. I rather think that they are engulfed by
the oceans of difference.
--
Christopher B. Browne, cbbr...@unicomp.net, chris_...@sdt.com
"When you say 'I wrote a program that crashed Windows', people just stare at
you blankly and say 'Hey, I got those with the system, *for free*"
- Linus Torvalds URL: http://www.conline.com/~cbbrowne/
Stefano Pagiola
Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> > This is ridiculous. If Lucas was unhappy with the scene, because maybe
> >he wanted an alien delivering the threats to Solo, instead of a human, the
> >scene was replaced by the GREEDO scene. Check it out. The dialogue is almost
> >line for line identical with the Greedo scene. They cut the Jabba scene,
> >and replaced it with the Greedo scene. They should never have put it back
> >in.
>
> Except that Lucas himself put it back, not any mysterious "they." In
> an interview in the latest STARLOG he says that he cut the Jabba scene
> because they didn't have the time or money to finish it with the
> matted-in stop-motion animation they had originally planned, and
> because the Greedo scene, WHICH WAS ALREADY THERE, covered everything
> essential.
> I know the dialogue's almost the same; I suspect that when the
> decision was made to drop the Jabba scene some lines got added to the
> Greedo scene. But Lucas says, unquestionably, that BOTH scenes were
> originally planned.
And, indeed, both scenes are in the current "Special Edition" release.
Doug Mertaugh
r...@axis.jeack.com.auz (Gully Foyle) wrote:
>>Subject: Re: George Lucas is a thief of thoughts!!!
>>From: Doug Mertaugh <mert...@indy.net>
>>>> this was cut from the movie. Sound familiar?
>
>> anybody's father or grandfather.
>
>No, Darth Vader got that bit.
I'll take that as humor.
>> And here I thought they were ripoffs of Arthurian legend
>> combined with martial arts myth and various eastern religions.
>
>So that rules out Lucas going to Dune and lifting it from there? I
>believe lucas took a short cut. Of course others argue that he is a
>story telling genius to rival Tolkien, who did his own research. I
>doubt it.
Oh, I doubt it too. He's no Tolkien, not by a billion times.
Yeah, he may very well have used "Dune" as a shortcut,
letting Herbert do all the research and then collecting it
in a bundle, though he certainly borrowed heavily from
many sources.
>> Then again, should we discuss the religions and myths from
>> which Herbert got some of his ideas.
>
>What exactly is your point?
My point is that many ideas are taken from previous sources.
Is Herbert a 'thief of thoughts' for borrowing from
myth? Of course not. What if he borrowed more heavily
from one myth than from any other? Well, the real question
is: where do you draw the line? How close does it have to
get before you define it as a ripoff? Obviously, the
"Dune" elements are close enough for you that you define it
as thievery. I think Lucas took many elements from many
sources and worked them into a very old story that isn't the
"Dune" story, though it possesses many mixed elements of
it. Is Lucas on the creative and literary level of
Herbert? Puh-lease. Make me laugh. Anyway, it's a
judgement call. Obviously, you think the mixture is still
too close to the plot of "Dune." It's a personal call based
on how close each person thinks is too close. I think
it's a little too close to call either way.
>>>> Obi-Wan uses something a lot like the Voice to get past some troopers
>>>> in SW. This scene is very similar to the one in which Jessica gets the
>>>> Harkonnens to release Paul.
>
>> Scenes where heroes have telepathic mind control powers will
>> tend to have similarities to other scenes where the heroes have
>> telepathic mind control powers.
>
>Oh is that all it was.
Whether or not that's where Lucas got the idea, I don't know.
I would not be shocked to learn that he did. Did he change
it enough that it's not a ripoff? Did "Dune" give him the idea
for the Jedi Knights? Possibly. Did arthurian knighthood
get added in. Certainly. In other words, what he read
gave him ideas. Did he rip off the plot of Dune? I don't
think so. Did he get ideas from Dune? Yes, I think he
did. He seems to have gotten them from many sources. He
may have ripped off from some. I couldn't say. Dune is the
only one of those sources I'm familiar with. I think the
elements are far too altered. He added his own ideas to the
mixture or somebody's besides Herbert's because I never
connected SW to Dune except in the most general way, ie. a
desert planet. Mind you, I'm a major proponent of the idea
that DS9 blatantly ripped off Babylon 5 so it's not as if
I can't notice similarities.
Karl Mac Mc Kinnon
>Then you need to get out there and read Joseph Campbell's books on the
>basis of the archetypes in mythology & legend.
No, the guys a reductionist who misses the point by steamrolling
all his myths and legends into a simple reductionist formula of a Zero
with 1000 faces.
There is no such thing as an archetype in "nature." Campbell has
a nice smile and a charming personality, but his reductionism robs
everything of its specific historicity. As a religious historian I have
had enough of this pop-soft-science. Soft("social")-science is bad
enough without some Irish guy who spent his life searching for religion
to explain why he never found it in a smart-sounding way.
>You'd learn a lot.
Buckle your safty belt.
>: Right, but the entire idea of the Kwisatz Haderach and The New Hope
>: taken together with all the other "similarities" can't leave too much
>: doubt.
>In your mind, with a deliberate attempt to make it so in your opinion. Ther
>young hero is the archetype in both. BTW, read Herbert's own comments about
>it being a Messiah story dressed up.
NO! Luke and Paul could both see the future. Luke and Paul with
both "deep-trained" by -two- masters. Paul had Ben and Yoda, Luke had
Jessica and his Mentat training. Both had a sister with similer powers.
Give me -three- other Mesianic figures with sisters who share in
the gifts of phophecy and a specific school of training.
Jesus: no sister, school -might- be Judism.
Buddha: no sister, no school
Ghandi: never heard of a sister
King: Might have a sister, doesn't ahve prophecy
Finn Mac Cool: His dog had a sister. (Finn Mac Cool's dogs =
Leto II and Ghanima? According to Campbell, yes).
Leto II = TWIN sister, could see the future, trained by past-lives.
Satan = no sister
Flash Gorden = no sister
You can reduce anything down to a core element that ignores
historicity. The Dune/Wars problem is about how -little- on has to do
this until they become the same.
>And OPIUM, Hashish and other drugs - where do you think the reference to
>Spice in DUNE came from. Lest we forget that DUNE was a child of the 60's.
Oil. Without Spice, no transportation. He who controlls the
Spice controlls the Universe. He who controlls the Petrolium controlls
the World. Imagine what our world would be like without oil or without
opium. Which is the more radical change? Spice has a geriatric effect.
Imagine a world where people dies in their 50's in industrial nations,
but with oil. The only difference is no old people. But without oil?
The world would be am much bigger place.
CHOAM = OPEC, anyone?
>I don't see a shortage of intelligent machines in STAR WARS.
This is a side thing, but I do. Why -bother- making a machine
that talks if it cannot talk to humans? R2D2 and the Millenium Falcon's
computer are the DUMBEST things I've ever seen. Why bother?
-----
The Ideologues who promise the perfection of man and society have converted
a great part of the twentieth-century world into a terrestial hell.
---Russel Kirk
Karl Mac Mc Kinnon
>If this is so blatantly obvious, why didn't Frank Herbert sue Lucas
>over it? After all, no writer likes to see his work "stolen" --
>particularly if it makes the supposed thief rich. For that matter,
>has Frank Herbert even been on record as claiming that Star Wars is a
>Dune rip off? If he hasn't, then aren't you presuming quite a lot by
>taking a position even Herbert didn't have?
Good point. There are only 16 similarities that cannot be
explained via coincidence.
Don't ask me what they are, it's what Herb said, not me.
Philth
In article <3315650...@newshost.cc.utexas.edu>, gu...@mail.utexas.edu (Guthrie Adams) wrote:
>That's an understatement. In Empire Strikes back and Return of the
>Jedi, there are creatures that vividly resemble the idea of the worms
>from Dune. The entire story about Luke and the Skywalker family after
>Han and the princess follow almost exactly to the six DUNE books.
Erm.. Have you watched the movies? Empire Strikes Back took place
on an Ice World, a Marsh World, and a Gas World .. The only creatures
they had in it were a big Yetti thing, and what looked like a giant lizard
that ate R2.
And Yoda.
Return of the Jedi had a sand covered world. Is a sand world something
FH trademarked? No. Did FH own all deserts? No. Get real. They were
going to throw Luke into the sand monsters mouth, which was lined with
teeth. Would be pretty cheesey if it didn't have teeth at all! Did FH own all
rights to teeth? No. Did the sand creature look ANYTHING like a sandworm,
or a worm at ALL? No. Have you seen the blueprints of what it actually looks
like OUTSIDE of the sand? No. It looks and resembles NOTHING of a sand worm.
The *only* creature in ALL of the movies that resembled a worm was in the
original, during the trash compactor scene that lived in the water. And Jabba
the Hut, which talked. Even then you have to stretch it a few hundred miles
to even come close to comparing it.
You've got to be on crack if you think Star Wars Trilogy is that closely
related to Dune. They're both Sci-Fi movies. FH did NOT create Sci-Fi.
Philth
I would hope you would agree. The producers and writers of ID4 stated
before the movie was even released the entire movie encompassed the
best parts of every other SciFi movie and book into one big exciting
mess. Not many people got the 'virus' thing relating to war of the worlds.
They actually had to tell people about that one. Not everyone is a SciFi
nut I guess. :)
Justin D. Lester
On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, Chad Irby wrote:
>
> If you want to talk about science fictions films and people they've ripped
> off, look at the output of Akira Kurosawa. About half of everything he's
> ever made has been remade as one or another SF film.
>
Not to be too nitpicky, but most were remade as westerns not sf. I could
probably come up with 10 westerns derived from Kurosawa, but only 2 or 3
sf films. Can you name more?
Justin
Justin D. Lester
On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, Gully Foyle wrote:
>
> All you are telling me is that Lucas drew influence from many
> different sources. I wouldn't even dispute that. The entire trilogy is
> a derivative mess. The point that I'm making is that he used Dune as
> the blueprint for the basic plot. That he overlaid many other ideas
> and themes over that is unquestionable.
The basic plot of Star Wars is the traditional journey of the hero.
Remember Ulysses? To say that he got this from Dune is crazy. I
seriously doubt that anything was taken from Dune. There are many
sources for Star Wars that are far more convincing than Dune.
Justin
Justin D. Lester
On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Redd-Beard wrote:
>
> Nighthawk wrote:
> >
> > Another great example is when people talk about how "original" the
> > story for ID4 is (yes, I've actually heard people make this comment).
> > It's not original at all. Certain PIECES may be original, but overall,
> > it's a re-hashed story with stock characters and great spfx.
> >
>
> haha I have to agree ID4 is far from original just look at the way they
> killed the aliens by planting a virus in the computer of the mother ship
> just an updated version of the way the war of the worlds aliens died by
> earth germs
> redd
>
movie. It takes an old theme and develops something new and different
with an elegant twist upon it. Every story has been written. The trick
is to look at that story from a new perspective.
Justin
David Stinson
In article <5f5he6$p...@uwm.edu>,
caps...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Karl Mac Mc Kinnon) wrote:
:In article <daves-ya02358000...@news.ni.net> da...@procom.com
(David Stinson) writes:
: NO! Luke and Paul could both see the future. Luke and Paul with
:Jessica and his Mentat training. Both had a sister with similer powers.
: Give me -three- other Mesianic figures with sisters who share in
:the gifts of phophecy and a specific school of training.
Norse Mythology - Balder, Thor (the Norns, various other prophetesses)
Greek Mythology - various Greek Heroes, Gods (the Fates, Cassandra)
Assyrian Mythology - various heroes, demigods
Hindu Mythology
Your mistake was to limit yourself to those Messianic figures YOU chose, while
blatantly disregarding the mythologicals.
--
David A. Stinson Web Page: http://www.procom.com/~daves/index.html E-Mail: dsti...@ix.netcom.com da...@procom.com dast...@aol.com ************************************************
** "Gonna need another Timmy!" -Baby Sinclair **
************************************************
Randal Morris
Will&Jane Duquette wrote:
>
> Somebody wrote:
> >: I don't agree with this, if you read about the origins of the
> >: Sardaukar and Stormtroopers you will see that they are one and the
> >: same.
>
> All I can say is, if Stormtroopers were Sardaukar, Luke would have
> been toast.
>
One thing that cracks me up about Stormtroopers:
In SW, when Luke and Ben come upon the Jawas burning transport, Ben,
refering to the wreckage, says "...and these blast points, to accurate
for Sandpeople. Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise."
Now, through the rest of the film, these guys can't seem to hit
anything! Even at close range. In large numbers.
--Ranman
Karl Mac Mc Kinnon
> This is ridiculous. If Lucas was unhappy with the scene, because maybe
>he wanted an alien delivering the threats to Solo, instead of a human,
Then the line "You're a wonder human being" wouldn't be in the script.