Fremen Counting
David Salo
In "Children of Dune", Alia recalls Stilgar mentioning The Preacher's use
of an archaic Fremen counting system:
"You know how he counts?... I heard him counting coins as he paid his
guide. It's very strange to my Fremen ears, and that's a terrible thing.
He counts 'shuc, ishcai, qimsa, chuascu, picha, sucta, and so on. I've not
heard counting like that since the old days in the desert."
The numbers used are actually from a northern Peruvian dialect of
Quechua (a widespread South American indigenous language). They also
incorporate several misspellings, introduced either by Herbert or his
editor (which is not surprising; the Dune books are in general edited very
sloppily). The series of numbers from one to ten should be (using
Herbert's orthography, or what seems to underlie it):
1) suc, 2) ishcai, 3) quimsa, 4) chuscu, 5) pichca, 6) sucta, 7) canchis,
8) pusac, 9) ishcun, 10) chunca.
qu and c represent the same k-sound, but are differentiated in writing
because a Peruvian Spanish speaker would normally pronounce "cimsa" as
"simsa". Other transcriptions will use k, i.e. "kimsa", "ishkai".
What's difficult to understand is why Herbert chose these Quechua
numbers. The Fremen are supposed to be, in their origin eleven or twelve
thousand years back, Egyptian Arabs ("The people of Misr"; "Nilotic
Al-Ourouba"). Peru is a very long way from Egypt, and Quechua and Arabic
have nothing in common (Peru is not even a desert country!). What's going
on?
David Salo
Psdr2jcc
>numbers. The Fremen are supposed to be, in their origin eleven or twelve
>thousand years back, Egyptian Arabs ("The people of Misr"; "Nilotic
>Al-Ourouba"). Peru is a very long way from Egypt, and Quechua and Arabic
>have nothing in common (Peru is not even a desert country!). What's going
>on?
There's no telling what happened on terra between 2000 and 10191. Even in our
time, languages cross over and merge.
Sheuset
"There should be a psychology of feet. For do we not make decisions with our
legs and walk about on our brains? What do you mean 'No, not really,'?"
-from "The Notebooks of Mauve'Bib-
Outtakes, Bloopers, and Unconvincing
Maxims,"
Gunnar Harboe
ds...@usa.net (David Salo) wrote:
>
> In "Children of Dune", Alia recalls Stilgar mentioning The
Preacher's use
>of an archaic Fremen counting system:
>
> "You know how he counts?... I heard him counting coins as he
paid his
>guide. It's very strange to my Fremen ears, and that's a
terrible thing.
>He counts 'shuc, ishcai, qimsa, chuascu, picha, sucta, and so
on. I've not
>heard counting like that since the old days in the desert."
>
> The numbers used are actually from a northern Peruvian
dialect of
>Quechua (a widespread South American indigenous language).
Wow, I didn't know that. I'll be sure to incorporate it in my
file of extremely obscure Dune factoids. :-)
> They also
>incorporate several misspellings, introduced either by Herbert
or his
>editor (which is not surprising; the Dune books are in general
edited very
>sloppily).
Just to make it clear, Herbert modified the spelling of several
terms intentionally, to reflect the development of language over
several thousand years. Just think of "ghafla".
> The series of numbers from one to ten should be (using
>Herbert's orthography, or what seems to underlie it):
>
>1) suc, 2) ishcai, 3) quimsa, 4) chuscu, 5) pichca, 6) sucta,
7) canchis,
>8) pusac, 9) ishcun, 10) chunca.
>
>qu and c represent the same k-sound, but are differentiated in
writing
>because a Peruvian Spanish speaker would normally
pronounce "cimsa" as
>"simsa". Other transcriptions will use k,
i.e. "kimsa", "ishkai".
>
> What's difficult to understand is why Herbert chose these
Quechua
>numbers. The Fremen are supposed to be, in their origin eleven
or twelve
>thousand years back, Egyptian Arabs ("The people of
Misr"; "Nilotic
>Al-Ourouba"). Peru is a very long way from Egypt, and Quechua
and Arabic
>have nothing in common (Peru is not even a desert country!).
What's going
>on?
Well, I've always been one of those who doesn't interpret the
Fremen Arabic origin as literally as some. Just like the people
of the Duniverse don't *really* speak English (but rather
Galach), I prefer to think of some of the Arabic flavour as an
interpretation of things alien to us, so we can understand it
more easily. That's not to say there's not definite statements
that there is a historical link between the Arabs and the
Fremen; I just wouldn't overestimate it. After all, there's
plenty of Arabic influence on the rest of the Duniverse as well.
Then again, in a work of fiction these things are beyond
academic.
Bye!
Gunnar Harboe
g_ha...@hotmail.com
> David
Salo
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David Salo
<g_harboe...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
> Just to make it clear, Herbert modified the spelling of several
> terms intentionally, to reflect the development of language over
> several thousand years. Just think of "ghafla".
He may have done so, but in some cases it must be just bad editing; I
can't think of any other reason why the term _Panoplia Propheticus_ appears
in _Dune_ (it's emended to the more grammatically correct _Panoplia
Prophetica_ -- literally, "prophetic weaponry" in _Children of Dune_).
Another accidental error (which Herbert's editors could have found and
corrected) was _Lisan al-Gaib_, which should have been _Lisan al-Ghaib_,
the "Tongue of the Invisible" (or "of the Concealed") -- an epithet first
applied to the Persian poet Hafiz!
_Ghafla_ is, however, not a problem; it's tolerably close to Arabic
_ghiflah_ "carelessness".
David Salo
Gunnar Harboe
ds...@usa.net (David Salo) wrote:
>In article <0797c168...@usw-ex0104-031.remarq.com>,
Gunnar Harboe
><g_harboe...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Just to make it clear, Herbert modified the spelling of
several
>> terms intentionally, to reflect the development of language
over
>> several thousand years. Just think of "ghafla".
>
> He may have done so, but in some cases it must be just bad
editing; I
>can't think of any other reason why the term _Panoplia
Propheticus_ appears
>in _Dune_ (it's emended to the more grammatically correct
_Panoplia
>Prophetica_ -- literally, "prophetic weaponry" in _Children of
Dune_).
>Another accidental error (which Herbert's editors could have
found and
>corrected) was _Lisan al-Gaib_, which should have been _Lisan
al-Ghaib_,
>the "Tongue of the Invisible" (or "of the Concealed") -- an
epithet first
>applied to the Persian poet Hafiz!
I don't think FH had editors to make sure he spelled Arabic
terms correctly, simply because he in _Dune_ never states
explicitly that the words are Arabic in origin. However, I know
that these simplifications of spelling is exactly the kind of
modifications he applied. Harkönen -> Harkonnen, fedayiin (sp?) -
> fedaykin, etc.
> _Ghafla_ is, however, not a problem; it's tolerably close to
Arabic
>_ghiflah_ "carelessness".
That's strange, because Herbert hints rather strongly that it's
derived from "gadfly". A pun, possibly?
Kieran Sanders
is absolutely RIDDLED with typos (it would have got very annoying if it
wasn't such a gripping book) I was just wondering if this is also true of
other editions, or if it's just this one?
Bazquux
Kieran Sanders <kie...@skull-rock.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8nd491$p42$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
> My copy of Children of Dune (a fairly recent New English Library
paperback)
> is absolutely RIDDLED with typos (it would have got very annoying if it
> wasn't such a gripping book) I was just wondering if this is also true of
> other editions, or if it's just this one?
My edition was absolutely rife with them too.