What was the Atreides Manifesto
Russ McRory
sure this is material you have covered time and time again. But, now
for another.
What was the deal with the Atreides Manifesto? Other than Odrade
writing it and it having some sort of effect on people, I didn't quite
understand what it was or its place in the story.
Thanks.
Russ
Bashar Alef Burzmali
Russ McRory wrote:
The main part of the discussion of it is when Waff discusses it with his
councilors. Another bit is when Odrade tells Teg she is the author, and the
other part is when Odrade reveals to Waff that she is the author. From what
I gather from those instances is that it is a treatise on the nature of
religion and magic and the Universe. The reason it is causing a stir is that
the author is Atreides. It's not really clear exactly what it says. At any
rate, it is disturbing because of the possibility it can create changes in
belief systems. I'm not even sure if it bolsters Leto's Godhood, or is some
sort of secular humanist tirade or just a caution. In the end, its effect or
importance seems to be negated by the stepping up of the Honored Matre
threat and the resultant scurrying of the ever evolving Ghola Project. In
fact, the only real relevance I can find is Odrade's reaction to the
Tyrant's carved words at the Hoard of Melange. She wonders if writing the
Atreides Manifesto has made her vulnerable and if that was Taraza's reason
for having her write it under her watch. Perhaps someone else can provide
further illumination.
Sam (light bulbous head) Sands
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Russ
Rynelm
Near the beginning of the book the Tleilaxu are discussing the manifesto and
Waff claims that,
"Every powindah religion is called into question by this manifesto. Every
faith except ours is left hanging in limbo."
This would, of course, make the manifesto an important factor in the BGs
attempt to persuade the Tleilaxu that they share their beliefs, since Odrade
could then reveal that she was the author. I'm not quite sure if that was
planned from the beginning though, since I got the impression that the
BG only found out about the Tleilaxu beliefs after Odrade had written the
manifesto.
--
Rynelm
R McRory
"Rynelm" <ryn...@email.com> wrote in message
news:slrn9d3iv3...@tinuviel.tom...
<snip>
<snip>
I just was flipping through HoD and in the scene where Waff kills Tuek, it's
explained that the Manifesto says that God and all his works are human
creations. So I see why the religions were up in arms about it but that
leads to the next question. Why?
I recall vaguely that the BG hoped to create some sort of religion around
the girl who was to command the worms. (It's not clear if the Manifesto was
published before or after Sheeana herself was known. I tend to think so
since the book begins three years after Sheeana was found and the dialogue
make sit seem like the manifest was fairly recent)
Anyway, if the BG intended to create such a Sheeana religion, why publish
the Manifesto which discredited all religions?
Russ
Samuel Sands
Rynelm wrote:
Thanks to yours and the other post, I see it clearer now. Apparently, the
Manifesto was a bolstering of the Worship of Leto II. This makes sense since the
Tleilaxu like it and intended to disseminate it far and wide. Obviously, or
probably, The B.G. did not know that the Tleilaxu were pro-Worm when it was
written. Instead, they had it written to bolster their plan to build a religion
around the Controller of the Worms, the remnant of Leto II. If all other religions
were lessened by the Manifesto, this would help in their efforts. I guess you
could say it was the B.G.'s good fortune that it also helped in their dealings
with the "dirty" Tleilaxu.
Sam (I kan sea clearly now the rain is gone) Sands
Joe Sweeney
Samuel Sands <ssa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:3AD2F10E...@bellsouth.net...
> Sam (I kan sea clearly now the rain is gone) Sands
Sea? Rain? What in the name of Shai-Hulud are these? I will tell you a thing: The Naib of Sietch Sweeney will never be fooled by outlandish stories such as these!
--
Joe Sweeney
--------
"I have ears, m'Lord! Here and here!"
"But they do not hear. Therefore you have no ears, neither here nor hear."
Andrew Timson
news:3AD2F10E...@bellsouth.net...
<snip stuff>
Hey, you changed your name back! Why?
Andrew Timson
========================================
It's our last best hope for peace? We're *so* screwed.
Samuel Sands
Andrew Timson wrote:
> "Samuel Sands" <ssa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:3AD2F10E...@bellsouth.net...
>
> <snip stuff>
>
> Hey, you changed your name back! Why?
My new name was so kewl, the babes wouldn't leave me alone.A man
kneads his sleep.
Sam (besides, I hate changing diapers) Sands
Russ McRory
Samuel Sands wrote:
> Rynelm wrote:
>
> > >
> >
> > Near the beginning of the book the Tleilaxu are discussing the manifesto and
> > Waff claims that,
> >
> > "Every powindah religion is called into question by this manifesto. Every
> > faith except ours is left hanging in limbo."
> >
> > This would, of course, make the manifesto an important factor in the BGs
> > attempt to persuade the Tleilaxu that they share their beliefs, since Odrade
> > could then reveal that she was the author. I'm not quite sure if that was
> > planned from the beginning though, since I got the impression that the
> > BG only found out about the Tleilaxu beliefs after Odrade had written the
> > manifesto.
>
> Thanks to yours and the other post, I see it clearer now. Apparently, the
> Manifesto was a bolstering of the Worship of Leto II. This makes sense since the
> Tleilaxu like it and intended to disseminate it far and wide. Obviously, or
> probably, The B.G. did not know that the Tleilaxu were pro-Worm when it was
> written. Instead, they had it written to bolster their plan to build a religion
> around the Controller of the Worms, the remnant of Leto II. If all other religions
> were lessened by the Manifesto, this would help in their efforts. I guess you
> could say it was the B.G.'s good fortune that it also helped in their dealings
> with the "dirty" Tleilaxu.
>
I sort of disagree. I think the Manifesto undercut *all* religious worship. In the
scene where Waff kills Tuek, Tuek said that the Manifesto said that God and all his
works were creations of Man.
Nor were the BT worshippers of Leto II. I think their opinion of him would be
analogous to Muhammad place in Islam - they were both Prophets of God. Worship of
Leto II would actually be a sacrilige. God is God - Muhamman/Leto is his Prophet.
I don't see Waff's prior statement quoted above as meaning that the Manifesto supports
Tleilaxu belief. The BT are zealots and nothing can shake their belief. I think what
that "Powindah" quote means is that the Manifesto helps them by weakening all the
competing religions which will in the end help them convert the universe to their
belief.
The thesis of the Manifesto - basically that there is no God - would be the anthesis
of BT belief. That was why Odrade's revelation that she wrote it while at the same
time telling him the BG shared the Great Belief of the Tleilaxu was so powerful. It
was so powerful because it appeard to Waff that the BG were thinking the same thing as
the Masters - that the Manifesto would weaken and kill "wrong" religions and leave the
field open for the Great Belief.
Russ
Samuel Sands
Russ McRory wrote:
Thanks for this perspective. They constantly refer The Tyrant as "Prophet" &
"Messenger".
Sam Sands
Rynelm
Maybe I'm missing something here, but if the manifesto weakened all religious
worship why would it not weaken the Tleilaxu religion when they came to trying
to convert everyone else?
--
Rynelm
Russ McRory
> Russ wrote:
> > I don't see Waff's prior statement quoted above as meaning that the Manifesto supports
> > Tleilaxu belief. The BT are zealots and nothing can shake their belief. I think what
> > that "Powindah" quote means is that the Manifesto helps them by weakening all the
> > competing religions which will in the end help them convert the universe to their
> > belief.
> >
> > The thesis of the Manifesto - basically that there is no God - would be the anthesis
> > of BT belief. That was why Odrade's revelation that she wrote it while at the same
> > time telling him the BG shared the Great Belief of the Tleilaxu was so powerful. It
> > was so powerful because it appeard to Waff that the BG were thinking the same thing as
> > the Masters - that the Manifesto would weaken and kill "wrong" religions and leave the
> > field open for the Great Belief.
> >
> > Russ
> >
>
> Maybe I'm missing something here, but if the manifesto weakened all religious
> worship why would it not weaken the Tleilaxu religion when they came to trying
> to convert everyone else?
I didn't get that either at first, but it sort of dawned on me during this discussion. The
BT were "true believers". It would never occur to them that the Manifesto could hurt their
Great Belief. God would make sure of that. It certainly wouldn't affect the BT themselves
(although they might not have the same opinion after they found out how the HM turned the
Scattered BT). Anyway, viewed from that perspective, anything that weakened existing
religions was good because it cleared the field for when the BT went public to try to
convert the Old Empire.
The explanation is similar for the Bene Gesserit, I think. On the face it it makes no
sense. The BG wanted to set up a cult around Sheeana so on the face, it makes no sense why
they would create and disseminate the Manifesto which calls into question all religion. I
think the BG were thinking similarly to the Tleilaxu. To the BG, who had eons of pratice
with the Missionaria Protectiva setting up religions, they were not worried about
successfully implanting a religion around Sheeana regardless of the Manifesto. The
Manifesto actually made their job easier by weakening the competition.
That's why it was so easy for Odrade to use the Manifesto to trick Waff. Both the BG and
the BT viewed it the same way: they each were utterly confident in their own "product" (i.e.
the Great Belief of the BT and the soon to be Cult of Sheeana for the BG) and viewed the
Manifesto as an opportunity (for the BT) and tool (for the BG) to clear out the opposition.
That's my opinon, anyway.
Russ
Samuel Sands
Russ McRory wrote:
I'll see your opinion and raise the roof. Excellent summation and thinking. However, I'm
afraid I'll have to ask you to leave this forum, you're making me look bad. :^)
Sam (Just kidding, I think) Sands
>
>
> Russ
stonet...@gmail.com
tony
breeding program. When the Atreides' spoke, people listened.
> wrote in message
> news:c696dbe4-6a48-441a...@googlegroups.com...