Smugglers
Larry Homer
In recent conversation with friends on Regent MUX I became aware for
the first time that my longtime viewpoint on the Smuggler organization
in DUNE is not universally accepted. I had always assumed that the
Smugglers were a much smaller and riskier version of the Guild, capable
of moving their own frigates from Star System A to Star System B without
contacting the Guild at any point, but probably taking longer to get there
and with occasional ships being lost, due to their lack of spice-addicted
Navigators.
It appears that there is a strong faction among my friends who feel that
Interstellar travel is not just risky but IMPOSSIBLE unless you have a
Guild Navigator to do it for you. They feel smugglers evade Imperial
Customs Service officials by launching their own ships, but then they
probably pay the Guild extra-high rates to carry their legally nonexistent
frigates INSIDE a Heighliner to an orbit around another planet in another
system, where the smugglers then make a landing in the middle of nowhere.
This strikes me as unlikely. The Guild doesn't have much interest in
encouraging any sort of competition, and it's mentioned more than once that
smugglers are needed for things people don't want the Guild to know about -
or refuse to ship.
Case in point:
"Your uncle makes a joke," Piter said. "He calls Count Fenring Ambassador
to the Smugglers, indicating the Emperor's interest in smuggling
operations on Arrakis."
Feyd-Rautha turned a puzzled stare on his uncle. "Why?"
"Don't be dense, Feyd," the Baron snapped. "As long as the Guild remains
effectively outside Imperial control, how could it be otherwise? How else
could spies and assassins move about?"
I would appreciate hearing any other relevant Herbert quotes and personal
opinions on the issue of non-Guild Interstellar Flight.
Larry Homer
lwh...@cord.iupui.edu
--
Larry Homer
John Hidalgo
Larry Homer wrote:
> It appears that there is a strong faction among my friends who feel that
> Interstellar travel is not just risky but IMPOSSIBLE unless you have a
> Guild Navigator to do it for you. They feel smugglers evade Imperial
> Customs Service officials by launching their own ships, but then they
> probably pay the Guild extra-high rates to carry their legally nonexistent
> frigates INSIDE a Heighliner to an orbit around another planet in another
> system, where the smugglers then make a landing in the middle of nowhere.
>
> This strikes me as unlikely. The Guild doesn't have much interest in
> encouraging any sort of competition, and it's mentioned more than once that
> smugglers are needed for things people don't want the Guild to know about -
> or refuse to ship.
I think your friends are right. What is one of the smugglers' biggest
commodity? Spice! Think the Guild would be interested? Yep! If the
Guild lies effectively out of imperial control and a customer exists
that has the coin to pay (reguardless of legality), do you think the
Guild would pass up a paying customer? I don't think so. There you go.
Be of Good Cheer!
John Hidalgo
Executive Director
Cavalier Dayes Renaissance Faire
http://www.eden.com/~cavalier
Alexander Johannesen
Hi, Larry,
Larry Homer wrote:
> It appears that there is a strong faction among my friends who feel that
> Interstellar travel is not just risky but IMPOSSIBLE unless you have a
> Guild Navigator to do it for you. They feel smugglers evade Imperial
> Customs Service officials by launching their own ships, but then they
> probably pay the Guild extra-high rates to carry their legally nonexistent
> frigates INSIDE a Heighliner to an orbit around another planet in another
> system, where the smugglers then make a landing in the middle of nowhere.
Attacks / smuggling / illigal stuff happened to / from the
highliner, but I belive these areas were heavily guarded.
If you started a fight here, then you really messed up.
> This strikes me as unlikely. The Guild doesn't have much interest in
> encouraging any sort of competition, and it's mentioned more than once that
> smugglers are needed for things people don't want the Guild to know about -
> or refuse to ship.
Well, the guild _administrators_, yes, but the guild was as
corrupt as any other. Money talks, and etc, etc, etc...
> Case in point:
[qote snipped]
> I would appreciate hearing any other relevant Herbert quotes and personal
> opinions on the issue of non-Guild Interstellar Flight.
This cite doesn't nescessarily have anything to do with
wether smugglers use the guild highliners or not. There
is another qote (which I havn't got handy right now, but
it is in the final trip from Caladan to Arrakis), where Pauls
father tells him about how Harkonnens and Atreides ships
were lined up against eachother without ever knowing or
even have the possibility to do anything about it.
The guild could be payed off to almost anything, and, I
belive, that the guild to some extent relied on the smugglers
for getting that extra spice outside of the emperors control.
The ones that the smugglers probably should be afraid of, is
the CHOAM company. They are the true enemies to the smugglers,
not the Guild.
Although I must agree it could be that you are right, but
I would limit their reach to as within a solar system or two.
More than this would take too long to travel, even at light-
speed / hyperspace / whatever. It wouldn't be profitable.
So, smuggling within the minor houses; yes, most likely. Within
the big Houses (and / or the Landsraad); not too sure about
that one.
--
________________________________________________________
Life is not a mystery to solve, but a puzzle to play
________________________________________________________
Alexander Johannesen (alej...@sn.no)
work: +47 22 20 98 70 priv: +47 22 67 07 79
Herslebsgt. 30 b, 0561, Oslo, Norway
Melanie Dorn
Karl Mac Mc Kinnon (caps...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu) wrote:
: Perhaps some smugglers have good math training and a supply of
: Melange? Holtzman's Theroms are probably not kept as a secret.
Holtman's theorems don't seem to help much with Navigation. You forget
no one outside of the Guild even knew they used melange for their
Navigation-trance until Paul deduced it.
Melanie Dorn
Larry Homer (lwh...@cord.iupui.edu) wrote:
: In recent conversation with friends on Regent MUX I became aware for
: in DUNE is not universally accepted. I had always assumed that the
: Smugglers were a much smaller and riskier version of the Guild, capable
: of moving their own frigates from Star System A to Star System B without
: contacting the Guild at any point, but probably taking longer to get there
: and with occasional ships being lost, due to their lack of spice-addicted
: Navigators.
: It appears that there is a strong faction among my friends who feel that
: Interstellar travel is not just risky but IMPOSSIBLE unless you have a
: Guild Navigator to do it for you. They feel smugglers evade Imperial
: Customs Service officials by launching their own ships, but then they
: probably pay the Guild extra-high rates to carry their legally nonexistent
: frigates INSIDE a Heighliner to an orbit around another planet in another
: system, where the smugglers then make a landing in the middle of nowhere.
: This strikes me as unlikely. The Guild doesn't have much interest in
: encouraging any sort of competition, and it's mentioned more than once that
: smugglers are needed for things people don't want the Guild to know about -
: or refuse to ship.
: Case in point:
: "Your uncle makes a joke," Piter said. "He calls Count Fenring Ambassador
: to the Smugglers, indicating the Emperor's interest in smuggling
: operations on Arrakis."
: Feyd-Rautha turned a puzzled stare on his uncle. "Why?"
: "Don't be dense, Feyd," the Baron snapped. "As long as the Guild remains
: effectively outside Imperial control, how could it be otherwise? How else
: could spies and assassins move about?"
I think I see how you interpret this now. You see it as Piter and the Baron
telling Feyd that the Imperium is interested in using smugglers since it
does not control the Guild. I read it as the Emperor is interested in
smuggling, and he requires an 'ambassador' to the Smugglers since they
cannot be stopped because the /Guild/ is outside of Imperial control.
That is, the Baron is saying the Smugglers exist because the Guild allows
them to; the Guild in a sense smuggles the Smugglers around (see the
quote below) beyond Imperial control.
This part is worded opaquely by Herbert. What are your other references?
: I would appreciate hearing any other relevant Herbert quotes and personal
: opinions on the issue of non-Guild Interstellar Flight.
Here is a simple quote from when Halleck was first meeting with Tuek (the
Smuggler) on page 256, Berkeley paperback (the foe mentioned is the
Harkonnen):
[Tuek says,] "You [Halleck] did not hear me say that. I merely say
I will protect our contract with the Guild. The Guild requires that we play
a circumspect game. There are other ways of destroying a foe."
Why would the Smugglers have a contract with the Guild if they weren't
shipping through them? Why would he be so afraid of losing it? How can
the Guild require anything of the Smugglers if they operate around it?
I believe this, along with Herbert's repeated assertion that the Guild
is a monopoly, can only point us to believing the Smugglers go through
the Guild. No, Herbert never flatly says they do, but the information
points to them using the Guild, and I see no counter examples.
Karl Mac Mc Kinnon
Perhaps some smugglers have good math training and a supply of
Melange? Holtzman's Theroms are probably not kept as a secret.
-----
The Ideologues who promise the perfection of man and society have converted
a great part of the twentieth-century world into a terrestial hell.
---Russel Kirk
cgil...@research.att.com
A most interesting viewpoint. Upon re-reading the section you quote (from
the second chapter of _Dune_), I still believe that the Guild is the only
entity in the known universe which has the capability of interstellar
space flight.
What I believe the Baron meant was that the only way for people to
quietly get onto and off of a planet surface was to get onto a smuggler
lighter. These lighters would then dock with a Guild heighliner in orbit
above the planet where anonymity is assured by the Guild. To get to and
from a heighliner without using a smuggler's lighter would mean landing
in the central spaceport, a highly visible area.
Support for the view that the Guild is the only interstellar-capable
organization comes from a number of locations within Dune Chronicles,
mostly from the stated fact that the Guild is a monopoly. Were this only
stated within the story by individuals, the point could be debated, but
Herbert puts it plainly in the "Terminology of the Imperium" under the
Guild:
GUILD: the Spacing Guilde, one leg of the political tripod maintaining
the Great Convention. The Guild was the second mental-physical training
school (see Bene Gesserit) after the Butlerian Jihad. The Guild monopoly
on space travel and transport and upon the internationl banking is taken
as the beginning point of the Imperial Calendar.
Another source would be the _Dune Encyclopedia_ that states:
The Guild held the civilized worlds together until the invention of
Ixian navigation devices in 14,132, when the Guild monopoly was broken.
For millennia its power was great, in one case even naming the successor
to the Golden Lion Throne. Only when the Atreides came to power was the
Guild influence checked through control of the melange they required.
Regards,
Christian
In article <5fepv6$a...@huron.eel.ufl.edu>,
> I would appreciate hearing any other relevant Herbert quotes and personal
> opinions on the issue of non-Guild Interstellar Flight.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Larry Homer
In article <5ff2d2$2...@uwm.edu>
Karl Mac Mc Kinnon <caps...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
>Perhaps some smugglers have good math training and a supply of
>Melange? Holtzmann's Theorems are probably not kept as a secret.
>
I don't think they need the melange at all if they're willing to accept a
greater risk factor in the trip. Faster-than-light (FTL) interstellar
space travel existed for at least 2000 years before the Guild established
its monopoly. If you believe the DE, well over 5000 years. Consider:
According to the DE, there was an Empire of Ten Thousand Worlds 5000
years before the Guild. They must have had FTL travel to tie such a large
area together. Even if you don't believe the DE, Appendix II of DUNE
gives us the following facts:
Immediately following the Butlerian Jihad, representatives of all the
great religions (one million followers or more) gathered to compose the
Orange Catholic Bible as common ground. At this time, the Landsraad had
been meeting regularly for 2,000 years.
80,000,000 people died in ecumenical riots during this period, which was
an average of 6000 per planet in the Landsraad League. The Landsraad had
13,333 planets, then, give or take a few. I can't imagine that they held
all that together in one political unit without FTL travel.
The Guild provided free passage for the delegates because it was trying
to establish a gradual takeover of the space travel industry. If the
destruction of the computers by the Butlerian Jihad had recently ruined
all non-Guild interstellar flight, wouldn't the Guild have an effective
monopoly on space travel immediately? Instead of slowly trying to achieve
one by clever maneuvering?
The Guild managed to establish itself as one of the three legs of the
tripod of power when the modern Imperium was being founded, along with
the Imperial Family and the Landsraad. That's when they demanded and got
their monopoly. But judging by Appendix II, non-Guild FTL travel had
existed for at least the last 2000 years, or how did the Landsraad meet
regularly (let alone even exist)? So the Guild had a *legal* monopoly,
rather than being the only people who knew how to travel from star to
star in *practice*. Of course, the fact that Guild Navigators could get
the trip done faster and safer also helped, but I think in the early
days, the important thing was the legal guarantees that nobody else would
be permitted to engage in interstellar trade.
I would say the smugglers only survived by being very small and
scattered, and because as long as they kept their operations small and
conveniently available to the Great Houses when there were things they
wanted to do that the Guild wouldn't ship for them, nobody really wanted
to arrest them. I think the smugglers used whatever FTL techniques were
in common use in the period before the Guild took over and after the
Butlerian Jihad. Where they got new ships, I don't know, unless Great
Houses were willing to make them loans at high interest rates.
Larry Homer, lwh...@cord.iupui.edu
Susan Hogarth
Melanie Dorn wrote:
> Holtman's theorems don't seem to help much with Navigation. You forget
> no one outside of the Guild even knew they used melange for their
> Navigation-trance until Paul deduced it.
Wow, I'd forgotten that - where does it happen?
Susan
George Foot
Melanie Dorn (sho...@panix.com) wrote:
: Larry Homer (lwh...@cord.iupui.edu) wrote:
: : In recent conversation with friends on Regent MUX I became aware for
: : the first time that my longtime viewpoint on the Smuggler organization
: : in DUNE is not universally accepted. I had always assumed that the
: : Smugglers were a much smaller and riskier version of the Guild, capable
: : of moving their own frigates from Star System A to Star System B without
: : contacting the Guild at any point, but probably taking longer to get there
: : and with occasional ships being lost, due to their lack of spice-addicted
: : Navigators.
: : It appears that there is a strong faction among my friends who feel that
: : Interstellar travel is not just risky but IMPOSSIBLE unless you have a
: : Guild Navigator to do it for you. They feel smugglers evade Imperial
: : Customs Service officials by launching their own ships, but then they
: : probably pay the Guild extra-high rates to carry their legally nonexistent
: : frigates INSIDE a Heighliner to an orbit around another planet in another
: : system, where the smugglers then make a landing in the middle of nowhere.
: : This strikes me as unlikely. The Guild doesn't have much interest in
: : encouraging any sort of competition, and it's mentioned more than once that
: : smugglers are needed for things people don't want the Guild to know about -
: : or refuse to ship.
But this way, the smugglers aren't a form of competition :) They are simply
providing spice, a much-needed substance. Sure, the smugglers make a profit,
but I expect the Guild charge a *large* sum for the transport. Of course,
there would be no records and no tax on it, so they probably make more than
on their normal passages.
: : Case in point:
: : "Your uncle makes a joke," Piter said. "He calls Count Fenring Ambassador
: : to the Smugglers, indicating the Emperor's interest in smuggling
: : operations on Arrakis."
: : Feyd-Rautha turned a puzzled stare on his uncle. "Why?"
: : "Don't be dense, Feyd," the Baron snapped. "As long as the Guild remains
: : effectively outside Imperial control, how could it be otherwise? How else
: : could spies and assassins move about?"
: I think I see how you interpret this now. You see it as Piter and the Baron
: telling Feyd that the Imperium is interested in using smugglers since it
: does not control the Guild. I read it as the Emperor is interested in
: smuggling, and he requires an 'ambassador' to the Smugglers since they
: cannot be stopped because the /Guild/ is outside of Imperial control.
: That is, the Baron is saying the Smugglers exist because the Guild allows
: them to; the Guild in a sense smuggles the Smugglers around (see the
: quote below) beyond Imperial control.
: This part is worded opaquely by Herbert. What are your other references?
: : I would appreciate hearing any other relevant Herbert quotes and personal
: : opinions on the issue of non-Guild Interstellar Flight.
: Here is a simple quote from when Halleck was first meeting with Tuek (the
: Smuggler) on page 256, Berkeley paperback (the foe mentioned is the
: Harkonnen):
: [Tuek says,] "You [Halleck] did not hear me say that. I merely say
: I will protect our contract with the Guild. The Guild requires that we play
: a circumspect game. There are other ways of destroying a foe."
: Why would the Smugglers have a contract with the Guild if they weren't
: shipping through them? Why would he be so afraid of losing it? How can
: the Guild require anything of the Smugglers if they operate around it?
: I believe this, along with Herbert's repeated assertion that the Guild
: is a monopoly, can only point us to believing the Smugglers go through
: the Guild. No, Herbert never flatly says they do, but the information
: points to them using the Guild, and I see no counter examples.
--
--
George Foot <gf...@mc31.merton.ox.ac.uk>
Merton College, Oxford.
JeffTB123
>Melanie Dorn wrote:
>Susan
I'm not 100% sure, but doesn't the appendix on BG intent and over all
stupidity in the Arrakis affair indicate that they knew about the Guild's
ability to see and tinker with the "higher order dimensions" with the
spice and that's why they should have suspected something BIG was up when
the Guild started getting nervous?
Jeff Brownell
jeff...@aol.com
Melanie Dorn
Susan Hogarth (sjho...@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: Melanie Dorn wrote:
: > Holtman's theorems don't seem to help much with Navigation. You forget
: > no one outside of the Guild even knew they used melange for their
: > Navigation-trance until Paul deduced it.
: Wow, I'd forgotten that - where does it happen?
: Susan
Paul foreshadows his prediction on page 191 of the Berkeley paperback
edition. He talks about why the Guild won't allow satelites in Arakeen
orbit, and who's behind it, but doesn't come out with the secret. He
finally does come out with te secret to the two blue-eyed Navigators
in Shaddam's entourage. The Emperor threatens Paul with the armada of
Sardaukar and Landsraad forces above the planet. Paul turns to the
Guildsmen and tells them they will not allow the ships to land or else
he will destroy the spice. He is the first to make the spice-Guild
connection, and they do prevent the landings. If it had been known
previously... the Guild would have been under the thumb of whomever
controlled Arrakis like they were after Paul.
shad...@logica.com
In article <331AF...@eden.com>, John Hidalgo <cava...@eden.com> wrote:
>Larry Homer wrote:
>
>> It appears that there is a strong faction among my friends who feel that
>> Interstellar travel is not just risky but IMPOSSIBLE unless you have a
>> Guild Navigator to do it for you. They feel smugglers evade Imperial
>> Customs Service officials by launching their own ships, but then they
>> probably pay the Guild extra-high rates to carry their legally nonexistent
>> frigates INSIDE a Heighliner to an orbit around another planet in another
>> system, where the smugglers then make a landing in the middle of nowhere.
>>
>> This strikes me as unlikely. The Guild doesn't have much interest in
>> encouraging any sort of competition, and it's mentioned more than once that
>> smugglers are needed for things people don't want the Guild to know about -
>> or refuse to ship.
>
>
>commodity? Spice! Think the Guild would be interested? Yep! If the
>Guild lies effectively out of imperial control and a customer exists
>that has the coin to pay (reguardless of legality), do you think the
>Guild would pass up a paying customer? I don't think so. There you go.
>
are paid. The Fremen pay spice bribes to the Guild to keep satellites away
from the desert, and nobody else knows about this. The Guild are quite happy
to to carry Harkonnen and Sardukar to Dune in complete secrecy (it is stated
that the one thing that may unite the houses is the thought of the Sardukar
picking them off on by one as they did the the Atreides). All this gives the
impression that the Guild are only interested in whether a client can pay the
required rate and to keep their monopoly on space travel.
I can't remember anything that says that space travel is impossible without a
guild navigator just very risky - you would have no idea of your exact
position after folding space, you could end up in the middle of a sun.