Butlerian Jihad&J. Butler:Bishop.

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ger

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Dec 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/20/99
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Dear Dunemiesters.
Having perused your newsgroup for a couple of days I just thought I'd
offer the following tit-bit. In your discussions of historical context
in Dune mention is often made of Jihad and Islam but nothing appears to
have been said regarding the prefix "Butlerian." My assumptionis that
this Butler is none other than Joseph Bishop of Durham and moral
philosopher who lived (1692-1752).
Or perhaps it was already common knowledge? Butler's "Analogy
of Religion" was published in 1736, a defence of revealed religion
against the rationalists and deists. He was much admired for coming as
close as possible to proving the existence of God by argument as seems
to be possible.
Does anyone have furthur thoughts on how the Butlerian view
translates into Herbert's allegorical mythology?
Thanks for any attention.


* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!


Elizabeth Falkner

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Dec 20, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/20/99
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This one is for Dr. M to answer, I think.

Willis?

Herbert was very aware of religious writings; he might have had this in
the back of his mind as he wrote DUNE, although the Butler he writes
about is a female whose child has been killed (at least in the DE--is
this from the Chronicles, too? My mind is Xmas-fuzzy and a certain
Person owns my DE now.)

Elizabeth

Gunnar Harboe

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Dec 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/21/99
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Dear ger,

It has been suggested on this newsgroup that "Butler" refers to one rather
obscure Luddite (machine stormer) whose name escapes me. I have no idea
whether this person is identical with your Bishop Joseph Butler, the dates
seem to suggest not.

Another idea was that the Great Revolt was the rebellion of the Butlers,
certainly a strange visual.
The DE invents a "Jehanne Butler" who led the Jihad, but she is not
mentioned in the Chronicles. One assumes that the BJ prequel there were
plans of when FH died would have featured her as a main character.

Bye!
Gunnar Harboe
g.ha...@ah.telia.no

ger <germondo...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:1a014600...@usw-ex0101-008.remarq.com...

ger

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Dec 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/21/99
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If I might add my two-pence worth to the debates on this forum.
Feudalism was not brought down by the arming of peasantry with advanced
weaponry. It was in fact gradually usurped by mercantilism and
increasing religious dissent. I am also intrigued by the lack of
discussion vis-a-vis the place of religion in Dune as I'm sure I read
somewhere that Herbert was extremely interested in this subject and its
place in his allegorical mythology is patently central. In all this
discussion of feudalism it seems to me that a connection has yet to be
made between this social structure and its theistic backbone. Feudalism
is predicated upon "the Divine Right of Kings" and the willingness of
the faithful to forebear suffering in this life in lieu of other-wordly
reward in the next.
I am happy with my placing of Joseph Butler Bisop of Durham
within the context of this debate, Jehanne the luddite
nothwithstanding, if for no other reason than the disruptions in
religious cohesion occouring when he wrote his tracts tie in nicely
with Herbert's fictional historiography in the wonderful world of Dune.
This was the time of (as Gunnar has rightly pointed out)
the luddites, though I am not sure there were any noble Bishops in
their number. It was also the time of the GReat Wars of Religion fought
across the continent in which William of ORange (geddit?) came to
prominence and was invested King of Britain and its attendant fiefs
after his defeat of the Catholic King James at the Battle of the Boyne.

Perhaps I'm reaching but the Orange Catholic Bible idea seems to
me to be inspired by this period. Note I merely use the word "inspired".

Thanks for watching folks.
Ger.
(sorry if this gets read twice, I posted with an eye to the main chance)

Willis McNelly

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Dec 21, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/21/99
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In article <385E9EA5...@home.com>, Elizabeth Falkner
<falk...@home.com> wrote:

> This one is for Dr. M to answer, I think.
>
> Willis?
>
> Herbert was very aware of religious writings; he might have had this in
> the back of his mind as he wrote DUNE, although the Butler he writes
> about is a female whose child has been killed (at least in the DE--is
> this from the Chronicles, too? My mind is Xmas-fuzzy and a certain
> Person owns my DE now.)
>
> Elizabeth
>
> ger wrote:
> >

> > Dear Dunemiesters.
> > Having perused your newsgroup for a couple of days I just thought I'd
> > offer the following tit-bit. In your discussions of historical context
> > in Dune mention is often made of Jihad and Islam but nothing appears to
> > have been said regarding the prefix "Butlerian." My assumptionis that
> > this Butler is none other than Joseph Bishop of Durham and moral
> > philosopher who lived (1692-1752).
> > Or perhaps it was already common knowledge? Butler's "Analogy
> > of Religion" was published in 1736, a defence of revealed religion
> > against the rationalists and deists. He was much admired for coming as
> > close as possible to proving the existence of God by argument as seems
> > to be possible.
> > Does anyone have furthur thoughts on how the Butlerian view
> > translates into Herbert's allegorical mythology?
> > Thanks for any attention.
> >

> > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
> > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!

I am not sure that FH meant any paticular "Butler." But he was certainly
referring to the Luddite anti-machine uprising in Britain at the beginning
of the industrial revolution.

As to the story of the aborted female fetus in the DE which brought about
the Butlerian Jihad, that creation was entirely my own, as I recall, and I
named her "Jehanne" after Joan of Arc - the warrior saint.

I had proposed to FH that he and I collaborate on a prequel to the Dune
saga called "Prequel to Dune: the Butlerian Jehad" or some similar title.
FH and I had discussed writing it together and he agreed with my general
plot outline, completed first chapter, and so on but his untimely death
prevented us from continuing. He had been living in the LA area at the
time and we often discussed it by phone, but I have no written notes from
him about it, unfortunately The prequel would have followed in general
terms the story as outlined in the DE - sketched in my notes - which I
still have - and written in final published form by one of my colleagues
at Cal State.

Willis McNelly

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Dec 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/22/99
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In article <wmcnelly-211...@d-asdful91.fullerton.edu>,
wmcn...@fullerton.edu (Willis McNelly) wrote:

Footnote to this discussion: The Special Collections Library at Cal State
Fullerton owns at least ten or twelve hoour ot two hour long tape
interviews or talks with FH. Most of them I made. We are planning to
have them transcribed, and - if - and it's a big 'if' - we own the
copyrights, we will make them available to the public either on-line or in
hard copy form. We are even considering making the sound portions of any
such public domain tapes available on line. All this will take time and
money. Time we have; money we do not. Despite the fact that Cal State
Fullerton is a public instituion, it is not profligate with funds. The
Special Collection lib lives on a VERY tight budget with only one and one
half full time personnel to staff it and do all of the myriad tasks
required. I do not recall if FH and I discussed the "Butler" reference on
any of those tapes, but I will investigate asap, and keep you all
informed. Stay tuned!

ger

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Dec 22, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/22/99
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Thanks for the response, that it comes from so august a source is all
the more heartening. Good luck with the transcription and publication
project. It would be an achievement indeed to put such a primary
research source in the public domain.
I'm very pleased that my first contribution to this forum
(having only recently read the first of the Dune novels) was handsomely
received.
Many thanks.
Ger.

Willis McNelly

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Dec 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/24/99
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In article <0f5b83e7...@usw-ex0107-043.remarq.com>, ger
<germondo...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:

Hardly an "august" source, but certainly a December one. From time to
time in 2000 I will post some recollections of FH derived from my many
meetings with him, doing so on the assumption that people will be
interested and that comments about FH do indeed belong on the afd line.
Is that OK with everyone?

Happy Hew Year to one and all.

Tony

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Dec 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/24/99
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Please do!

Icarus Dream

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Dec 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/24/99
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Willis McNelly wrote:

>From time to
>time in 2000 I will post some recollections of FH derived from my many
>meetings with him, doing so on the assumption that people will be
>interested and that comments about FH do indeed belong on the afd line.
>Is that OK with everyone?

Definetly! I look forward to it.

Icarus Dream
icard...@aol.com

Samuel Sands

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Dec 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/24/99
to

Willis McNelly wrote:

> In article <0f5b83e7...@usw-ex0107-043.remarq.com>, ger
> <germondo...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the response, that it comes from so august a source is all
> > the more heartening. Good luck with the transcription and publication
> > project. It would be an achievement indeed to put such a primary
> > research source in the public domain.
> > I'm very pleased that my first contribution to this forum
> > (having only recently read the first of the Dune novels) was handsomely
> > received.
> > Many thanks.
> > Ger.
> >
> >
> > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
> > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
>

> Hardly an "august" source, but certainly a December one. From time to


> time in 2000 I will post some recollections of FH derived from my many
> meetings with him, doing so on the assumption that people will be
> interested and that comments about FH do indeed belong on the afd line.
> Is that OK with everyone?

Are you kidding? I wait with bated breath. :^) Any scraps you throw our way
would be *much* appreciated! :^)

Sam (bate and switch) Sands

Elizabeth Falkner

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Dec 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/24/99
to

Ex-squeeze MWAH?

"...on the assumption that people will be interested"... he says,
innocently.

Do ursine mammals leave their droppings in arboreal regions?

Sheesh. What a question. Um, sure, I'd say, oh, maybe a good quarter
to a third of us might want it...at least somewhat.

Double sheesh. If you weren't my favorite Dune Buggy who is older than
I am, I'd devise a deliciously devious torture for you for THAT one,
Buster.

Elizabeth

Willis McNelly wrote:
>
> In article <0f5b83e7...@usw-ex0107-043.remarq.com>, ger
> <germondo...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the response, that it comes from so august a source is all
> > the more heartening. Good luck with the transcription and publication
> > project. It would be an achievement indeed to put such a primary
> > research source in the public domain.
> > I'm very pleased that my first contribution to this forum
> > (having only recently read the first of the Dune novels) was handsomely
> > received.
> > Many thanks.
> > Ger.
> >
> >
> > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
> > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
>
> Hardly an "august" source, but certainly a December one. From time to
> time in 2000 I will post some recollections of FH derived from my many
> meetings with him, doing so on the assumption that people will be
> interested and that comments about FH do indeed belong on the afd line.
> Is that OK with everyone?
>

Mudbone

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Dec 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/25/99
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"Is that OK with everyone?" Are you kidding! There are at least 100 afders
who will be anxiously awaiting whatever scraps you have.

Jim Marshall
====================================================
Willis McNelly <wmcn...@fullerton.edu> wrote in message
news:wmcnelly-241...@d-asdful53.fullerton.edu...

Psdr2jcc

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Dec 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM12/28/99
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>Is that OK with everyone?

I would take the water squeezings from your towel flung to the floor.

Kull wahad!
jim

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