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rhook...@hotmail.com

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May 24, 2005, 9:01:29 AM5/24/05
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http://baheyeldin.com/literature/arabic-and-islamic-themes-in-frank-herberts-dune.html

Above link provides a brilliant review of arabic and islamic concepts
in Dune by a native Arabic speaking Muslims. Many of these even
surprise me.

Susan Hogarth

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May 24, 2005, 11:36:11 AM5/24/05
to

It is a nice workmanlike job of pulling together the arabic terms, but
it's no 'brilliant review'. Goodness, to point out that _Dune_ has
elements of Arabic culture takes no brilliance - Herbert makes quite a
point of it himself.

- Susan

rhook...@hotmail.com

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May 25, 2005, 7:03:15 PM5/25/05
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1. You go and take the time to compile a list of the roots of dozens
and dozens of terms from Dune and show the arabic root of almost each
and everyone, giving the arabic spelling of the word.

2. Perhaps you forgot, or did not notice, but a number of posters on
this group have repeatedly stated that Dune was not inspired by Arabic
culture or history. This was during more heady days of the war in Iraq
and recent diasters there may have mellowed a few, but at one time the
majority of posters on the subject were firm that Dune had nothing to
due with Arab culture and was in no way inspired by it.

I myself am greatful for the individual, not a member of this group,
who took the time to track down each and every term.

Susan Hogarth

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May 26, 2005, 10:22:46 AM5/26/05
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rhook...@hotmail.com wrote:
> 1. You go and take the time to compile a list of the roots of dozens
> and dozens of terms from Dune and show the arabic root of almost each
> and everyone, giving the arabic spelling of the word.

I didn't say the work was bad, only that it doesn't rise to
'brilliant'.

> 2. Perhaps you forgot, or did not notice, but a number of posters on
> this group have repeatedly stated that Dune was not inspired by Arabic
> culture or history.

You are looking for argument where none exists. No one has ever denied
Arabic cultural and linguistic elements in _Dune_; although people have
argued that the Fremen were NOT intended to represent earth-present
Arab societies. The page you linked to does a good job of documenting
the cultural and linguistic elements borrowed form the Arab world for
_Dune_; a nice documentary job, but certainly not any sort of
revelation.

- Susan

rhook...@hotmail.com

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May 27, 2005, 4:15:53 AM5/27/05
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1. Brillaint is not a very clearly defined term. Knowing what a
difficult language Arabic is and the time that this person took to
settle the issue I am willing to grant him the title brilliant.

Frankly I have never seen anything on this group even close.

2. If you are saying no one ever denied Arabic influence on Dune then
you have simply NOT been paying any attention.

The Fremen of Dune reflect a general pattern of Arab culture living in
deserts, many of who are alive today. When I travelled the deserts of
the Middle East I meet groups living marginal exists on the borders of
remote Syria and Jordan who live very much like Fremen of Dune.

The Fremen of Dune change radically over the corse of the 6 books, just
as the general Arab population had experienced changes during Herbert's
life and certainly these changes were reflected in Dune.

But Herbert's model was more historical and general, so it can not be
precisely said they do not reflect or reflect 100,000,000 diverse
people living in different conditions today. What is reflected is a
general trend of culture and society still alive.

WHAT IS KEY is that ISLAM was the PRIMARY influence on Dune, and that
Herbert made an extensive and deep study of Dune. I have repeated
pointed to the historical analogies, this article shows the linguistic.

Also frankly given the current situation in Iraq it is hard to imagine
how one could not see the continued survival of the rebelion in Iraq
despite the world's last super-power trying for over 2 years to destroy
it echos of the situation in Dune. Since Dune was a novel, and a Sci
Fi novel, it was made more dramatic for our reading pleasure and
Herbert's own profit. He took the Arab culture of tradition, and much
of today, and made it more radical, hard, and dramatic so he could seel
more books. But he still took Arab culture of tradition and today.
And in Iraq many US leaders who had assumed the Arabs were a military
spent force are now seeing their errors.

Juho Julkunen

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May 27, 2005, 2:43:01 PM5/27/05
to

It seemes to be more of a listing of possible origins of certain terms
and features than a review of concepts.

But thanks for the link, it is a nice collection.

--
JTJ | http://www.kolumbus.fi/j.julkunen/
"The Fifth Commandment is 'Humor thy father and mother.'"

haardkerne

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May 27, 2005, 5:30:58 PM5/27/05
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I don't understand why you keep on mentioning the Iraq war. This isn't
even an NG for political discussions....? It was a few years ago since
I was in this NG, but I remember clearly that even then no one objected
to the fact that there are Arabic linguistic and Islamic cultural
elements. But what does Dune have to do with the Iraq war? I'd like to
point out there is a difference between saying that Islam i a primary
influence on Dune (planet?) and in Dune (novel). If you mean the
former, I shall agree that there are heavy elements of Islamic culture
and Arabic influences on Arrakis.

When considering the cultures of the other planets in Dune (novel),
they are different.

Additional statement to the website: The fact that Paul Atreides takes
on a wife and a concubine (c.f. website) could might as well be
influenced by Chinese culture or many other cultures. By the way, "Soo"
in Korean also means water, as does "Sui" in Chinese.

Tony

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May 27, 2005, 7:00:32 PM5/27/05
to

<rhook...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:

Hello rhooker,

I'd like to make a few comments.

> 1. Brillaint is not a very clearly defined term. Knowing what a
> difficult language Arabic is and the time that this person took to
> settle the issue I am willing to grant him the title brilliant.
>
> Frankly I have never seen anything on this group even close.

Yes, of course, brilliant isn't a clearly defined term. I remember reading
that Frank Herbert had a large collection of books on Islam. I found an
essay by Will NcNelly in which he said:

"As to the languages: FH told me that he had learned several hundred words
of Arabic in preparation for the book - and some of the words in the books
are severely modified - as is natural with languages - by the passage of
time."

From "Is the Dune Encyclopedia Canon?"

By the way, one very good essay posted to the newsgroup in 1999 was "The
Stars and Planets of Frank Herbert's Dune: A Gazetteer" by Joseph M.
Daniels.

>
> 2. If you are saying no one ever denied Arabic influence on Dune then
> you have simply NOT been paying any attention.

Yes, it's possible that someone said this.

>
> The Fremen of Dune reflect a general pattern of Arab culture living in
> deserts, many of who are alive today. When I travelled the deserts of
> the Middle East I meet groups living marginal exists on the borders of
> remote Syria and Jordan who live very much like Fremen of Dune.

And there are other cultural influences, many detailed in Tim O'Reilly's
book Frank Herbert:

http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/

For example, there is a tribe in Africa that bathes with animal urine,
because water is so scarce. Eskimos have have a large number of words to
describe snow, just as the Fremen has a large number of words to describe
sand. Prana bindu training is based on Indian and Chinese yoga/martial arts
practices. American Indians use Peyote as a religious practice, just as the
Fremen use spice. The list goes on.

>
> The Fremen of Dune change radically over the course of the 6 books, just


> as the general Arab population had experienced changes during Herbert's
> life and certainly these changes were reflected in Dune.
>
> But Herbert's model was more historical and general, so it can not be
> precisely said they do not reflect or reflect 100,000,000 diverse
> people living in different conditions today. What is reflected is a
> general trend of culture and society still alive.
>
> WHAT IS KEY is that ISLAM was the PRIMARY influence on Dune, and that
> Herbert made an extensive and deep study of Dune. I have repeated
> pointed to the historical analogies, this article shows the linguistic.

I don't think that Islam is the primary influence on Dune. For example,
couldn't the Fremen be replaced with another culture, for example, the
Shaolin culture, without the story being changed in any significant way? We
should remember that Herbert dealt with themes similar to Dune in many other
books, e.g., "Destination Void," "The Green Brain," "The Santaroga Barrier,"
and "The Godmakers." However, he never introduced Islam or Arabic culture
into any of these books.

>
> Also frankly given the current situation in Iraq it is hard to imagine
> how one could not see the continued survival of the rebelion in Iraq
> despite the world's last super-power trying for over 2 years to destroy
> it echos of the situation in Dune.

I don't think the two situations are analogous. For example, what is the
religion of the Fremen? Do they even believe in God? Weren't the Fremen
manipulated by Paul? And eventually didn't they suffer because of their
blind obedience to a supposed "superman?"

> Since Dune was a novel, and a Sci
> Fi novel, it was made more dramatic for our reading pleasure and
> Herbert's own profit. He took the Arab culture of tradition, and much
> of today, and made it more radical, hard, and dramatic so he could seel
> more books. But he still took Arab culture of tradition and today.
> And in Iraq many US leaders who had assumed the Arabs were a military
> spent force are now seeing their errors.
>

Did you know that Frank Herbert was a veteran of the US military?


Paul Fedorenko

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May 28, 2005, 9:26:00 PM5/28/05
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"haardkerne" <panod...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1117229458.7...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

> Additional statement to the website: The fact that Paul Atreides takes
> on a wife and a concubine (c.f. website) could might as well be
> influenced by Chinese culture or many other cultures. By the way, "Soo"
> in Korean also means water, as does "Sui" in Chinese.

Furthermore, the word "sietch" is just as likely to have been taken from an
old Ukrainian word meaning something like "fortified village" as it was from
teh arabic root mentioned on the website. In fact, I think the Ukrainian
link might be closer. Plus, a lot of the terms in Dune seem to have more
western European roots, including words used by the Fremen, so I think
Herbert got his inspiration from all over the place.


rhook...@hotmail.com

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Jun 4, 2005, 2:48:26 PM6/4/05
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1. Kings and leaders take concubines. Not to be rude but the present
husband of the Queen of England is the Royal Concubine. Its not a
Chinese feature at all. And Arab men did take concubines, and what do
you think all those memebers of the harems were called?

2. What you present her is a Ukrainian word for a fort, and a Chinese
word for water. These are so easily answered that they can not be held
again the wieght of evidence.

Firslty I invite you to find 10 Ukrainian terms used in Dune? Also
considering the common roots of Ukrainian early culture and Arab came
from a common early nomadic people in Central Asia. Earlier Ukraine
very well may have had a turkish origin, so the fact the same word is
used is of not surprise.

Also Arab cultures were benefited by direct trade on contact with
China, and the tribes of China must have left Africa via the Arab
world, I don't think it is likely that they had a European origin.

Now I am fairly certain that words for water could certainly share a
common origin, just as we Europeans have common language patterns with
Indo-Europeans who conquere India. In fact one must remember that
China and the Arabs were also great super-powers at the same early
times and probably trading of terms was common, or perhaps it is just
chance.

The truth is there is very little Chinese in Dune. I have been to the
middle east and the misnamed "holy lands" and I have been to China and
Russia. Trust me, Dune is way way more like Jordan, Tunisia, Syria or
even Iraq then it is like China or Russia.

Also there is another key point. Herbert was focusing his analogy on a
particular period in the Arab's history, when Mohammed and his
following generations established the Arabs as the world's most
advanced and powerful empire, which would last until the Mongols
overran the region and depopulated it for generations. Therefore it is
key to remember that Herbert modelled the Super-Powers that were,
losely, upon the Super-Powers of those days. The Powers of that time
were the Greeks of the Orthdox Church still calling themselves the
Romas, and the Persians. So the sequences that involve the super
powers will most reflect the ruthless Saddam style rule of clans that
existed in Greece and much of Turkey at the time of Mohammeds life.

In Mohammed's real life he always admired the Roma Greeks and wanted to
form and alliance because he saw himself as a true Christian Teacher,
as well as a true Jewish teacher. So Mohammed would not participate
much in the super power fights and took a number of wives from his own
local people.

But beyond these details, there is not denying that the majority of
references are to either American English or Arabic/Hebrew concepts and
words. I think this excellent post, of which I can not speak highly
enough, shows the pure wieght of Arabic Inspiration of Dune.

This is not to say Dune is a Islamic Book. That would be stupid. Dune
is less and Islamic book as The Satanic Verses. It was just inspired
in great measure by Herberts study of the cutlures of North Africa and
the Middle East.

HookerSmokinCaterpillar

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Jun 4, 2005, 5:31:23 PM6/4/05
to

<rhook...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1117910901.1...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

>
> Not to be rude but the present husband of the Queen of
> England is the Royal Concubine.
>
Actually, he's not. He's her legally-wedded husband, you silly man. And
she's the queen of the United Kingdom - not England.

>
> Also there is another key point. Herbert was focusing his analogy
> on a particular period in the Arab's history, when Mohammed and
> his following generations established the Arabs as the world's most
> advanced and powerful empire, which would last until the Mongols
> overran the region and depopulated it for generations.
>
No he wasn't.

>
> I think this excellent post, of which I can not speak highly enough
>
Try! Try!

>
> This is not to say Dune is a Islamic Book.
>
Oh, gosh, no. No way. Pfffff.
>
> That would be stupid.
>
Yes - it would. Islamic book indeed! As if, eh?!

>
> Dune is less and Islamic book as The Satanic Verses.
>
Wow! That's *really* less! Well well.


irenaeus

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Jun 5, 2005, 4:45:13 PM6/5/05
to
I know you hate to hear this Bobby, but if you would just proof read
what you write before you post it, you would make a lot more sense.
Your comments and arguments will be stronger if a reader does not have
to decipher what you meant to write. This is not a spelling flame, but
I do want you to know that you might get a better response if you made
more sense.

irenaeus

rhook...@hotmail.com

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Jun 6, 2005, 7:44:49 AM6/6/05
to
Being a poor spelling I spend hour a week proof reading my emails, my
presentations, my company letters, and my computer code.

Sorry but I have not the interest or desire to proof read Dune.
Firstly I post out of pure spite, I have never seen anyone on this
group take any serious issue important, and it is my experience on
usenet that open minded groups ignoring spelling.

rhook...@hotmail.com

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Jun 6, 2005, 7:54:51 AM6/6/05
to
>>>
Actually, he's not. He's her legally-wedded husband, you silly man. And

she's the queen of the United Kingdom - not England.
>>>

1. England is one of the Three Kingdoms of the United Kingdom, along
with Scotland and Northern Ireland. Since she is the only Queen of
England I imagined it would be understood. I assumed everyone knew
what I mean. She is the only Queen ruling in England.
2. Your right it is not Phillip but Albert, the legally married husband
of Victoria who was Prince Consort. My deepest regrets for getting the
recenty history of British royal title mixed up.

None the less the point is simple, consort is a common term among royal
families and not reserved to china.

rhook...@hotmail.com

unread,
Jun 6, 2005, 7:57:25 AM6/6/05
to
>>>
But what does Dune have to do with the Iraq war?
>>>

Here we go again.

Dune is about a poor desert people who have had a long history of
colonial rule and brutal rulers who are sitting on a pile of resources
essential to transport and economics.

They are invaded by a Super Power of the time with the tacit concent of
the rulling powers of that time. From the ground level they conduct a
hit and run attack on that super power.

I mean do I have to spell it out for you?

rhook...@hotmail.com

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Jun 6, 2005, 8:00:16 AM6/6/05
to
1. Actually the many words for snow, last I read, was something of a
myth.

2. As for Islamic influence on Dune, let me clearly outline the major
points:

A. Inguistic: the Freman use dozens of Arabic words and terms, with
only American English, the language of the book, in greater use.
B. History: the story of a marginal desert people rising up in a Jihad
to overthrow and existing world order is a close model to the rise of
Islam.
C. Climate, the climate of Dune is very very close to the radical
climates underwhich Arabs live.

HookerSmokinCaterpillar

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Jun 6, 2005, 2:04:28 PM6/6/05
to

<rhook...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1118058891.7...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

>
> 1. England is one of the Three Kingdoms of the United
> Kingdom, along with Scotland and Northern Ireland.
>
Yeah! Wales, the Isle of Man, and the Channel Islands aren't important. And
England's not a "Kingdom", and nor are any of the others. She's not queen of
"England", but queen of the United Kingdom. Or "Britain", if you prefer. You
may as well say she's queen of London. Or Scunthorpe. I'm sure we'd all
still know what you meant. Silly bugger.

>
> Since she is the only Queen of England I imagined it would be understood.
>
Mmmmm. Elton John might disagree with you.

>
> I assumed everyone knew what I mean.
>
Your history of bitter, twisted, unintelligible, ignorant, humourless posts
tends to stand in your way, though.

>
> She is the only Queen ruling in England.
>
"England" is a name on a map. It disappeared - politically - in 1707, along
with all the other constituent parts of the new "United Kingdom". So you're
wrong. Daft sod.

>
> 2. Your right it is not Phillip but Albert, the legally married husband
> of Victoria who was Prince Consort. My deepest regrets for getting
> the recenty history of British royal title mixed up.
>
I bet. Made you look like a total dork. Mind you, you still do.

>
> None the less the point is simple, consort is a common term
> among royal families and not reserved to china.
>
"Grace under pressure", eh?!


Susan Hogarth

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Jun 6, 2005, 4:43:07 PM6/6/05
to
rhook...@hotmail.com wrote:
> ...
> Firstly I post out of pure spite, ...

And *that* is why you are not welcomed here when you post.

- Susan

haardkerne

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Jun 8, 2005, 4:56:06 PM6/8/05
to
> 1. Kings and leaders take concubines. Not to be rude but the present
> husband of the Queen of England is the Royal Concubine. Its not a
> Chinese feature at all. And Arab men did take concubines, and what do
> you think all those memebers of the harems were called?

I'm sure they were concubines too. And I rest my case!! :)) Read my
post again! I wrote

"Additional statement to the website: The fact that Paul Atreides takes

on a wife and a concubine (c.f. website) could might as well be
influenced by Chinese culture or many other cultures. By the way, "Soo"

in Korean also means water, as does "Sui" in Chinese. "

COULD MIGHT AS WELL. Meaning that he might as well have been influenced
elsewhere than just Arabic culture.

Btw, the Bene Gesserit ate with chopsticks in Chapterhouse: Dune.
Again, not because I'm proposing that the Dune Chronicles are infested
with Chinese cultural influences, but that it's a mix/match of MANY.

C'est tout. ;)

Tony

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Jun 9, 2005, 4:32:09 PM6/9/05
to

<rhook...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:

> 1. Actually the many words for snow, last I read, was something of a
> myth.

I hadn't heard that, but I could easily believe it. However, there are many
similarities between the Fremen and Eskimos, too many to entirely discount.
For example, Eskimos used to leave older members of the tribe out in the
snow to die. This seems very similar to the Fremen's hardnosed attitude
toward life and death, particularly when the issue of the Freman tribal
survival was at issue. Eskimos have a genetic mutation that enables them to
endure the cold, while Freman have a genetic trait that causes fast blood
clotting to preserve water. Eskimos use dogs for traveling in the
inhospitable expanses of snow, while Fremen use the giant sandworms.
Eskimos use specialized clothing of their own manufacture to survive in the
arctic dessert. The Fremen used stillsuits of their own manufacture.

>
> 2. As for Islamic influence on Dune, let me clearly outline the major
> points:
>

> A. Linguistic: the Freman use dozens of Arabic words and terms, with


> only American English, the language of the book, in greater use.

> B. History: the story of a marginal desert people rising up in a Jihad
> to overthrow and existing world order is a close model to the rise of
> Islam.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you believe that Islam is about to
overthrow the existing world order? Or do you mean that historically Islam
emerged and displaced previous religions, and cultures?

> C. Climate, the climate of Dune is very very close to the radical
> climates underwhich Arabs live.
>

I don't think many people would disagree that Islamic themes represented a
major influence on the Dune Chronicles. However, many people would disagree
that the Islamic themes are essential for our proper understanding of Dune.
For example, someone recently advanced the idea that Greek themes were
essential for our understanding of Dune. Other writers have pointed to the
influence of Roman Catholic themes. Still others have emphasized the
historical influence that robots have had on the Dune Universe. There is no
single correct interpretation of the Dune Chronicles.


rhook...@hotmail.com

unread,
Jun 9, 2005, 4:51:52 PM6/9/05
to
1. The only think connecting eskimos to Freman is the fact the live in
sparce climates. Freman ware clothing with Arab names, greet each other
with Arab names, use arab worlds to praise god, they live in a clan
culture on the margin of the great empire which takes little notice of
them until it is too late. The linguistic, religious, and historical
analogies between Freman (a word for desert people in Tunisia by the
way) and the Arabs to be ignored.

And given the Arabs great success in fighting the US to a standstill in
Iraq I would say they grow day by day.

2. Mohammed intended Islam to be an extension or reform of the
Christian and Jewish order fo that time, and he speaks highly of the
Greeks who were Christians.

But after the "Jihad" in which they established a new order they
succeded in putting the ancient world to an end and stated the Middle
Ages.

3. People who disagree with the critical point of Islamic themes to do,
I fear I must say, are generally Americans who like Sci Fi but are
consumed by the current race hatred in the United States against
anything Islamic.

I have repeatedly shown that the story line in the first 3 books was
essentially lifted from the early history of Islam, I found a web page
that shows that almost every word in Dune not American English is
Islamic or Arabic, I have even shown the symbol of Paul, the moon, and
his color, green, to be pure Islamic symbols.

To not see Dune as a book inspired overwhelming by Islam is so blind
one can only wonder what motivation could make it happen. When I was
13 and first read the book the connection to Islam was so clear I, and
no one else i knew who read it could escape it. It started me on
learning about Islamic culture.

But that was 25 years ago. Today there is a growing feeling in
American, fanned by the terrible experience of Iraq, that Muslims are
the utter vial enemy. People want their Sci Fi novel, but the want to
edit out the clear Islamic element.

I am not here to make friends, I am here to stand against another
effort by Americans, stunned by the surprising skill of Arabs fighting
them in Iraq, to write the Arab and Islam out of our culture and
memory.

You see some day soon Bush is going to be gone as President, and some
day in the future someone is going to resolve this war in Iraq and
return the US to more normal relations with the billion Arabs 99.99% of
which would never join a terrorist organization, who see themsleves
fighting to preserve their independence from the US, which has invaded
a Muslim nation under a pretext of shifting lies.

The last thing I want is the kind of peace Japan got after WWII, a
peace built up the foundations of denial and ignorance.

Tony

unread,
Jun 9, 2005, 6:25:05 PM6/9/05
to

<rhook...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:

> 1. The only think connecting Eskimos to Freman is the fact the live in
> sparse climates. Freman ware clothing with Arab names, greet each other


> with Arab names, use arab worlds to praise god, they live in a clan
> culture on the margin of the great empire which takes little notice of
> them until it is too late. The linguistic, religious, and historical
> analogies between Freman (a word for desert people in Tunisia by the
> way) and the Arabs to be ignored.

Now hold on a minute. Arabs don't take spice, they don't ride sand worms,
they haven't been displaced from planet to planet like the Zensunni
Wanderers. They're not super strong, they're not superstitious, and
they're not interested in the ecological transformation of their planet.


>
> And given the Arabs great success in fighting the US to a standstill in
> Iraq I would say they grow day by day.

Yes, but Dune was written in 1965. Whatever analogies Frank Herbert was
trying to make concerning Arabs would have to be based on the Arabs he was
familiar with.

>
> 2. Mohammed intended Islam to be an extension or reform of the

> Christian and Jewish order of that time, and he speaks highly of the


> Greeks who were Christians.
>
> But after the "Jihad" in which they established a new order they
> succeded in putting the ancient world to an end and stated the Middle
> Ages.

Yes, I suppose so.

>
> 3. People who disagree with the critical point of Islamic themes to do,
> I fear I must say, are generally Americans who like Sci Fi but are
> consumed by the current race hatred in the United States against
> anything Islamic.

I don't think Islam is a race.

>
> I have repeatedly shown that the story line in the first 3 books was
> essentially lifted

Essentially lifted? I don't think so. For example, one recent poster
identified many significant Greek themes.

> from the early history of Islam, I found a web page
> that shows that almost every word in Dune not American English is
> Islamic or Arabic, I have even shown the symbol of Paul, the moon, and
> his color, green, to be pure Islamic symbols.

Yes, but that's just cosmetic.


>
> To not see Dune as a book inspired overwhelming by Islam is so blind
> one can only wonder what motivation could make it happen. When I was
> 13 and first read the book the connection to Islam was so clear I, and
> no one else i knew who read it could escape it. It started me on
> learning about Islamic culture.

Dune can be interpreted in many different ways. Remember Frank Herbert was
a Jungian lay analyst. I don't think he was preoccupied by Islam or Arabic
culture. He was interested in writing about the human race as a whole. He
wanted to write a story about human nature. The Fremen were not
characterized as simple heroes. They were fallible, ignorant,
superstitious, and gullible. They turned Paul's revolution into a silly
religion, and his priests tried to have him assassinated. They permitted
the spirit of the Baron Harkonnen to rule Arrakis as a self destructive
dictatorship.


>
> But that was 25 years ago. Today there is a growing feeling in
> American, fanned by the terrible experience of Iraq, that Muslims are
> the utter vial enemy. People want their Sci Fi novel, but the want to
> edit out the clear Islamic element.

There have always been terrorists. At beginning of the last century the
Anarchists were considered a major threat. They even assassinated President
McKinley. There are different branches and factions within Islam, just as
there are in Christianity, Judaism, and Hinduism.


>
> I am not here to make friends, I am here to stand against another
> effort by Americans, stunned by the surprising skill of Arabs fighting
> them in Iraq, to write the Arab and Islam out of our culture and
> memory.

It's probably better to talk about these issues rather than to throw bombs
at each other. Are you familiar with Hegel's concepts of thesis and
antithesis?

>
> You see some day soon Bush is going to be gone as President, and some
> day in the future someone is going to resolve this war in Iraq and
> return the US to more normal relations with the billion Arabs 99.99% of
> which would never join a terrorist organization, who see themsleves
> fighting to preserve their independence from the US, which has invaded
> a Muslim nation under a pretext of shifting lies.

I think we're getting away from the Dune Chronicles here. Dune is a
remarkable work that can be interpreted in a variety of ways. I understand
that many of the themes in Dune were presented in Frank Herbert's first
novel "Under Pressure." However, this was a cold war novel.


>
> The last thing I want is the kind of peace Japan got after WWII, a
> peace built up the foundations of denial and ignorance.

What kind of peace did the Fremen have under the rule of Paul's son?


Ty

unread,
Jun 13, 2005, 11:35:53 AM6/13/05
to
Gone for a couple of months and this idiot is *still* at at.

<rhook...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1118350312.5...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> And given the Arabs great success in fighting the US to a standstill in
> Iraq I would say they grow day by day.

I see that you're still not taking your medication:

Exhibit A. 1991 - The "3rd Largest Army in the World" (also the largest Arab
army in the world) is obliterated by a smaller American-led force. 50,000+
dead Iraqis, a few dozen dead Americans and Coalition troops.

Exhibit B. 2001 - Afghanistan overran and conquered within a few weeks.
Thousands of dead jihadi; a few dozen dead Americans. This despite dire
predictions by lefities that Afghanistan cannot be conquered.

Exhibit C. 2003 - Iraq overran, Saddam Hussein and his Baathist homocidal
maniacs flee into hiding. Bahgdad falls within 2 weeks. Tens of thousands of
Iraqi soldiers killed, wounded or captured. A few dozen Americans dead.
Within 18 months, Iraqis create a democracy -- the first in the Arab world
(besides Israel).

Exhibit D. 2003-present. In a number of poorly planned, ineptly executed
operations, motley Iraqi Baathis holdouts and wouldbe Warriors of Allah get
slaughtered anytime they go up against US or UK forces. Typically, the might
Warriors of Allah lose10-20 for every coalition casualty they cause.

Exhibit E. 2004. A particularly embarrassing (for mysogynistic Warriors of
Islam, that is) incident occurs when the fearsome Warriors of Allah are
routed by a US military police convey largely comprised of female soldiers
(and led by a woman). Another novelty in military history -- despite the
grim assurances that it is an "Iraqi Stalingrad", Falusa is captured by
coalition forces, who again suffer only a tiny fraction of the casualties
suffered by the Arabs. This may be a first in military history -- the
defenders of a city take many times more casualties than the attackers.

Overall, the latter-day "Fremen" manage to lose about 10-20 for every
American or Brit they kill. Showing that even Islamist fanatics are capable
of some learning, Michael Moore's "minutemen" increasingly resort to
cowardly attacks against their fellow Muslims. American casualties are about
6% of the losses the US suffered in the worst year of the Vietnam War. Math
being difficult for lefties, they continue to absurdly compare Iraq to
Vietnam.

Paul's Fremen tended to take only a fraction of the casualties they caused.
Even against the best soldiers in the galaxy (the Sardaukar), Paul's Fremen
killed 3 for every one they lost.

But your vaunted Arab warriors seem to be doing the complete opposite. Of
course, they are obviously the worst soldiers on the face of the earth (and
perhaps in history), so this isn't surprising. I mean, these guys are lousy.
They make the WWII Italians and French look like the 1944 US 101st Airborne
Division, the Roman Praetorian Guard or Napoleon's Old Guard.

But what is surprising is how morons like you can interpret such obvious
beatings as some kind of "victory". Other recent examples of Arab military
"success":

1. 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973. Arabs utterly defeated and humiliated by tiny
Israel, despite overwhelming numerical superiority, lavish materiel
assistance from the Soviet Union and staggering oil wealth. In 1973, the
Arabs even have the advantage of strategic and tactical surprise, yet still
lose badly. Only Soviet intervention threats prevent victorious Israelis
from annihilating surrounded Egyptian army and seizing Cairo and Damascus.

2. 1980. Israeli forces rout the Syrians from the Bekaa valley, suffering
about 5% of the casualties inflicted on the hapless Syrians. A new low in
Arab air combat incompetence -- 80 Syrian fighters shot down, no Israeli
losses (except for one accidentally shot down by Israeli air defenses).

3. 1980s. Libyan Arabs routed by poorly equipped and outnumbered Chad
tribesmen. Despite overwhelming numerical superiority, lavish materiel
assistance from the Soviet Union and staggering oil wealth, the Libyans
perform as poorly as all the other modern Arab Armies.

Not exactly Patton's Third Army, are they?

Perhaps you can tell us where we may additionally find among Paul's Fremen
the other notable characteristics of the Arab world: widespread corruption,
incompetence, misogyny, homophobia, blaming others for self-inflicted
problems, stupifying illiteracy and ignorance, etc.

Where may we find these traits among the Fremen of Dune?

> 3. People who disagree with the critical point of Islamic themes to do,
> I fear I must say, are generally Americans who like Sci Fi but are
> consumed by the current race hatred in the United States against
> anything Islamic.

Still demolishing strawmen, eh bobby?

No one argues that Arab culture (and by extension, Islam) was an influence
on Dune. What we do dispute is the absurd notion that (a) it is a retelling
of the story of Muhammed; and (b) that it is of much use in analysing a Real
World war like the one in Iraq.

And, uh, Islam is not a race.

> I have repeatedly shown that the story line in the first 3 books was
> essentially lifted from the early history of Islam,

Lawrence of Arabia, according to the author.

> To not see Dune as a book inspired overwhelming by Islam

Lawrence of Arabia, according to the author.

> is so blind
> one can only wonder what motivation could make it happen. When I was
> 13 and first read the book the connection to Islam was so clear I, and
> no one else i knew who read it could escape it. It started me on
> learning about Islamic culture.

Why did you stop?

> But that was 25 years ago. Today there is a growing feeling in
> American, fanned by the terrible experience of Iraq, that Muslims are
> the utter vial enemy. People want their Sci Fi novel, but the want to
> edit out the clear Islamic element.

An interesting assertion, given the unending gibbering from self-identified
Islamist terrorist groups that the "infidel" US is their greatest enemy. And
the virulent anti-American foaming from the motley assortment of crackpot
Mullahs, psychopaths and fanatics who make up much of the religious
leadership of the Arab world.

A pretty typical delusional rant is this interview given by a prominent
Egyptian historian (or is that hysteric?) Professor Zaynab Abd Al-Aziz:

Abd Al-Aziz: "The decision to impose one religion over the entire world was
made in the Second Vatican Council in 1965."
Host: "Huh?"
Abd Al-Aziz: "Yes. A long time ago."
Host: "They decided to Christianize the world?"
Abd Al-Aziz: "Yes. The decisions of the 1965 Vatican Council included, first
of all, absolving the Jews of the blood of Christ. This decision is well
known and was the basis for the recognition of the occupying Zionist
entity - Israel. The second decision was to eradicate the left in the
eighties. I believe we've all witnessed this. The third decision was to
eradicate Islam, so that the world would be Christianized by the third
millennium."
Host: "Why is America hostile to Islam, although we never had and never will
have the same conflict with them we had with Europe?"
Abd Al-Aziz: "Well, do you remember what we just said about the Second
Vatican Council in 1965 and about Christianizing the world? It was agreed
upon and pre-arranged. John Paul II prepared a five-year plan, on the eve of
the third millennium, Christianize the world. His address in 1995 was based
on the assumption that by the year 2000, the entire world would be
Christianized. Since the plan was not accomplished, the World Council of
Churches assigned this mission to the US in January 2001, since the US is
the world's unrivaled military power. They named the decade between
2001-2010 "the age of eradicating evil" - "evil" referring to Islam and
Muslims.

This insane ranting goes on for sometime. And we can find countless examples
of the same kind of delusional insanity coming from the latter day "Fremen"
religious, acedemic and political leaders.

There is hope, of course. A tiny, but slowly increasing number of Muslim
thinkers are beginning to criticize their fanatic co-religionists. 30 years
too late, IMHO, but better late than never. Of course, we have yet to see
how many of them will be murdered by their fellow members of the Religion of
Peace (the usual fate of Muslims who criticize Muslim fanatics) or driven
into hiding by death threats.

What we can be sure of is that hypocrites like you will never say a word
about such Muslim atrocities...

> I am not here to make friends, I am here to stand against another
> effort by Americans, stunned by the surprising skill of Arabs fighting
> them in Iraq, to write the Arab and Islam out of our culture and
> memory.

"Stunned"? Only by their sheer ineptitude. The Arabs are making the 1944
Marianas Turkey Shoot (US shot down 380 Japanese planes while only losing
17) look like a near run thing. They even make the *French* look like
competent soldiers. Cripes, bobby. Even you can't be this delusional.

> You see some day soon Bush is going to be gone as President, and some
> day in the future someone is going to resolve this war in Iraq and
> return the US to more normal relations with the billion Arabs 99.99% of
> which would never join a terrorist organization, who see themsleves
> fighting to preserve their independence from the US, which has invaded
> a Muslim nation under a pretext of shifting lies.

So bobby -- do you think a majority of Iraqis wish that Saddam had not been
removed?

<non-answer predicted>

--Ty


Susan Hogarth

unread,
Jun 13, 2005, 12:35:59 PM6/13/05
to
Ty wrote:
> Gone for a couple of months ...

And how pleasant it was. Strange how you just happened to show up after
months of not posting right after Bobby just happened to show up after
months of not posting.

- Susan

Ty

unread,
Jun 13, 2005, 12:58:32 PM6/13/05
to
"Ty" <tybea...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:tJhre.387$Nz2...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...

> A pretty typical delusional rant is this interview given by a prominent
> Egyptian historian (or is that hysteric?) Professor Zaynab Abd Al-Aziz:

> There is hope, of course. A tiny, but slowly increasing number of Muslim


> thinkers are beginning to criticize their fanatic co-religionists. 30
years
> too late, IMHO, but better late than never. Of course, we have yet to see
> how many of them will be murdered by their fellow members of the Religion
of
> Peace (the usual fate of Muslims who criticize Muslim fanatics) or driven
> into hiding by death threats.

For additional evidence of this latter problem, see Salman Rushdie, who is
under a death sentence by the crackpot mullocracy of Iran. I wonder how much
bobby and his ilk are troubled by this? I like this article condemning
"moderate" Muslims:
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=jihad&ID=SP90505 . The
title says it all: "Muslims in Name, Apostates in Fact". And as anyone
familiar with Islam know, the sentence for apostacy is usually death. A
similar article appears here
(http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=jihad&ID=IA20805)
"Accusing Muslim Intellectuals of Apostasy". "In an interview... Sheikh
Yousef Al-Qaradhawi, one of the most prominent clerics in Sunni Islam and
among Islamist circles and a spiritual leader for the Muslim Brotherhood
movement, discussed the view of modern religious law on carrying out the
punishment for ridda, and permitted the murder of free Muslim intellectuals
whose views differ from those of Islamist clerics." Nice.

And of course, there was the communique of twenty-six gibbering Saudi
clerics (published in November 2004 and posted at one time at
http://www.islamtoday.net/) sanctioning Jihad against the U.S. in Iraq. Of
course, "gibbering Saudi clerics" is kinda like saying "tall giants", but I
digress. Embarassed by this, the feckless Saudi lunocrats trotted out a few
purported religious authorities who claimed that it was wrong to encourage
Saudis to go to Iraq and slaughter infidels. The reason -- because it was
against the Saudi ruler's command, thereby violating the purported Muslim
duty to obey the ruler. So it's only okay for Muslims to slaughter
"infidels" and fellow Muslim women and children if the ruler says it's okay.
As an aside, it's interesting how much enthusiasm the Saudi fanatics have
for murdering their fellow *Iraqi* Muslims. The Saudis had better hope that
the Iraqis don't carry a grudge...

This goes on and on and on. The antisemetic jeremiads are even more insane,
rivaling anything Goebels ever put out. Here are some examples:

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=antisemitism&ID=SP90805
"(Muslims) Will Rule America; Israel is a Cancer; Jews are a Virus
Resembling AIDS; Muslims Will Finish Them Off"

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=antisemitism&ID=SP78204
-- "We were Educated from Childhood that the Holocaust is a Big Lie"

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=antisemitism&ID=SP76304
-- "The Jews [are] Slaughtering Non-Jews, Draining their Blood, and Using
it for Talmudic Religious Rituals".

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=antisemitism&ID=SP70004
-- "The Jews are Behind Every Disaster or Terrorist Act"

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=antisemitism&ID=SP37002
-- a rather touching sermon from one of the clerics of the Religion of
Peace, ended by the following tolerant and peaceful prayer:
"Oh Allah, show the Jews a black day."
"Oh Allah, annihilate the Jews and their supporters."
"Oh Allah, raise the flag of Jihad across the land."
"Oh Allah, forgive our sins..."

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=antisemitism&ID=SP21201
-- Egyptian columnist thanks Hitler (again): "[Insistently] for the second
time, thanks to Hitler, of blessed memory, who on behalf of the
Palestinians, revenged in advance, against the most vile criminals on the
face of the earth. Although we do have a complaint against him for his
revenge on them was not enough." Yeah, bobby, these are the Good Guys.

Nor do these folks limit their insane bigotry to adults. They inculcate
Muslim children into it as well. This site
(http://www.edume.org/reports/4/1.htm ), has numerous antisemetic quotes
from Arab textbooks, like:

-"One must beware of the Jews, for they are treacherous and disloyal." 9th
grade Palestinian text

-"Concerning these deceptive, treasonous Jews, they received the recompense
for their treason and their scheming against their allies the Muslims: Allah
(gave) the Muslims their land, houses and property...'' Syrian 10th grade

Of course, such things do not surprise me given that they are written by
people who encourage children (though seldom their own children) to become
suicide bombers. Where's the renowned lefty concern for children, bobby?

Anyhow, for every muted, equivocal. "yes but", neo-condemnation of Muslim
terrorism (usually in English and seldom in Arabic) by "moderate" Muslims,
we get hundreds of these kind of rants from everywhere in the Muslim world.
Yet still, lefties like bobby hypocritically whine about purported American
bigotry and confidently assert that the extremists represent a very tiny
fraction of Muslims.

Well, maybe so. But the extremists sure do seem to include a huge proportion
of the Muslim leaders in the Middle East, don't they?

Yep, bobby, the Middle East is just crawling with tolerant, open minded
Muslim clerics, leaders and intellectuals, isn't it?

--Ty


Ty

unread,
Jun 13, 2005, 1:02:30 PM6/13/05
to
"Susan Hogarth" <hog...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1118680559....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

> Ty wrote:
> > Gone for a couple of months ...
>
> And how pleasant it was.

Still lecturing others about OT posts, Susan? No change there, I guess.
Well, Susan, rest assured I'll give your words all the consideration they
deserve.

> Strange how you just happened to show up after
> months of not posting right after Bobby just happened to show up after
> months of not posting.

<shrug>

This thread started more than two weeks ago. I realize that you find math
challenging, but I hardly think that my post came "right after" the thread
started.

--Ty


rhook...@hotmail.com

unread,
Jun 28, 2005, 4:27:14 AM6/28/05
to
Ty, I had imagine you had finally found the moral courage of your big
mouth and gone off to fight in Iraq. Another guy from my home town
came home without a leg last month.

You rant on and I mostly ignore you.

TY, its this simple, YOU WERE WRONG. Grow up and admit it. The war in
Iraq is a diaster, the Arabs (Iranians by the way are not Arabs) are
winning against us using the tactics outlined in Dune.

As for the tolerance of the Middle East, its not our job to beat
tolerance or democracy in to them. I don:t recall the Freeman being
rather tolerant either. I dont recall the Freeman being perfect good
people, didnt they kill stranger to drink their water? What ever,
there is a real war going on and the USA is going to lose it because of
people like you.

The question is the war you total pieace of shit. Its going very
badly.

Now unless you are over 40 I think its time you march your ass down to
your local recruiter and sign up. Talk is cheap and I think you being
safe at home bashing Islam as troops who don:t want to be there are
getting killed is fucking disgusting.

You wanted this war, you cheered and cheered and cheered for it. Well
time to put some ass where you mouth is. Unless you are a total
coward? Which I am sure you are.

Ty, join up, the nation is facing 5 to 10 more years of war because of
fascists like you. I am not the child, I warned you, I WAS RIGHT. Now
it is time for you to GROW UP.

Its easy to be a bully thinking you are going to pound people to think
the way you want them to from your computer on your fat ass in America,
a disgusting greeding fascist nation by the way. Its another to show
some courage.

But you are in the end American, and it is in Iraq that what America
has become is clear. America invades other nations and cheers but when
the going gets rough they watch Fox News and dont sign up.

Ty

unread,
Jun 28, 2005, 12:26:41 PM6/28/05
to
<rhook...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1119947234.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

> Ty, I had imagine you had finally found the moral courage of your big
> mouth and gone off to fight in Iraq. Another guy from my home town
> came home without a leg last month.

That's unfortunate. But what's your point? Surely you aren't implying that
the occurence of casualties renders all wars illegitimate?

> TY, its this simple, YOU WERE WRONG. Grow up and admit it.

What, specifically, was I wrong about? Specifically.

> The war in
> Iraq is a diaster, the Arabs (Iranians by the way are not Arabs) are
> winning against us using the tactics outlined in Dune.

Well, except for the winning part. Your breathtaking ignorance on both
topics - Iraq and Dune - appears to have blinded you to some very basic
differences between the two.

Where, in Dune, may we find off-planet fanatics streaming onto Arrakis to
kill for the Fremen? And who, once they get there, discover that the
Harkonnen are way too tough. And who decide instead to slaughter Fremen
women and children with suicide bombs?

After all, that is what your beloved resistance in Iraq is reduced to -- a
bunch of lunatic Arabs from outside of Iraq mostly killing Iraqi women and
children. By the way, how is it that you have failed to be outraged by this?
Or is it somehow okay for cowardly Saudi terrorists to murder Iraqi women
and children so long as the terrorists *claim* to hate the Americans?

Hmmmn? Any answer bobby? Or will you continue to avoid answering questions
that highlight your own moral bankruptcy? Tell us again why you have so much
admiration for folks who target women and children and who behead hostages.
Tell us, bobby, if you dare.

> As for the tolerance of the Middle East, its not our job to beat
> tolerance or democracy in to them.

Yes, but wouldn't you agree that the Arab cultures you worship are largely
characterized by brutal autocracies, religious intolerance, misogyny,
corruption, comical incompetence and a lack of even the most basic human
rights? <nonanswer predicted>

And if so, why do you find such cultures worthy of such admiration? Seems to
me that a lefty like you would be opposed to such values -- you certainly
whine about them when you think they exist anywhere outside the Muslim
world...

For that matter, why is it that you admire their culture so much, yet choose
not to live there? If the Muslim world is the Shangri-la that you imply,
then I'd think you'd be chafing at the bit to move there. But, like so many
other self righteous, indulgent western lefties, you prefer to enjoy the
benefits of living here, while admiring such cultures from afar and bitching
about your own culture. Folks like you are like black members of the Ku Klux
Klan (if any could be found), it seems to me.

> I don:t recall the Freeman being
> rather tolerant either. I dont recall the Freeman being perfect good
> people, didnt they kill stranger to drink their water?

Oh no, the Fremen were not good by our standards. Personally, their habits
were necessary because of the harsh environment in which they lived. Please
explain to us all how the environment in which Arabs live forces their
cultures to be ignorant, religiously intolerant, corrupt, misogynistic and
to ignore the most basic human rights?

Hmmn?

> What ever,
> there is a real war going on and the USA is going to lose it because of
> people like you.

The correct formulation is that we will win this war *despite*
self-righteous, anti-American idiots like you. The brave Warriors of Allah
are being slaughtered in droves by our well trained citizen soldiers. Unlike
the Fremen, the Arabs are the worst soldiers in the world and quite possibly
in human history. And I am perfectly happy for them to be slaughtered by our
troops. Of course, I guess folks like you would prefer that we let them
slaughter more American civilians. But fortunately, you hysterical left wing
ideologues are not in charge...

> The question is the war you total pieace of shit. Its going very
> badly.

Well, it is going badly for you.

But then, I predicted on 9-12-01 that the loony left was one of the true
victims of 9-11. Your rabid, hysterical anti-Americanism is now exposed for
the absurd, blind religious dogma that it is. And, as was shown by the
Republican victory in 2004, the country recognizes that you folks cannot be
trusted to lead the nation in time of war. Your constant whining about an
impending American defeat has been shown time and time again to be motivated
by religious hysteria, rather than reasoned analysis.

Weren't you happy for the Iraqis when they turned out in great numbers to
vote in January, thereby starting the democratic process in the middle of
the Muslim world?

> Now unless you are over 40 I think its time you march your ass down to
> your local recruiter and sign up. Talk is cheap and I think you being
> safe at home bashing Islam as troops who don:t want to be there are
> getting killed is fucking disgusting.

I think what you really find disgusting is the overwhelming superiority
enjoyed by the American troops (who you lefties seem to have an inexplicable
hatred for). Why is that, bobby? Did you actually delude yourself into
believing that a motley bunch of savage Muslim fanatics could stand
toe-to-toe with the well-trained, disciplined and professional military
forces of the US and her allies? Is it actually possible that you are so
ignorant of military history that you imagined that such ignorant rabble
would stand a snowball's chance in hell against *real* soldiers?

Well, if so, then you are learning right along with the Warriors of Allah
that training trumps religious fanaticism. And that savagery is no match for
discipline. They -- and you -- are also learning why Americans don't bother
with lurid rhetoric or gibber on about how were going to drink our enemies'
blood, etc. The reason we don't carry on about war is that we are so very,
very good at it...

And unlike Paul's Fremen, the modern Warriors of Allah are terrible
soldiers -- among the worst in history. And unfortunately for them, they are
in a fight with *real* soldiers. Your delusional praises notwithstanding,
the Warriors of Allah are getting slaughtered en masse every time they go up
against our troops. I wonder how the misgynistic Warriors of Allah felt when
the unit of female American MPs routed them last year? How did *you* feel,
bobby, when those that you admire were humiliated thusly? Gee, does a
Warrior of Allah still get the full complement of virgins in heaven if he's
killed by an Infidel *woman*?

> You wanted this war, you cheered and cheered and cheered for it. Well
> time to put some ass where you mouth is. Unless you are a total
> coward? Which I am sure you are.

Ah, so no one may support a war unless they personally serve in it? Hmmmn.
Lincoln didn't serve in the Civil War. Does that make him a coward. For that
matter, Bill Clinton did not serve in the Balkans, Somalia, Iraq or Haiti.
Does that make him a coward for sending troops there? Your silence on Mr.
Clinton's apparent cowardice is telling, I think.

> Ty, join up, the nation is facing 5 to 10 more years of war because of
> fascists like you.

<ding ding ding>

Ah, the dreaded f-word, so beloved of ignorant lefties. Do you even know
what the word means?

> I am not the child,

True -- not even a child could so uncritically support the scum that you do.

> But you are in the end American, and it is in Iraq that what America
> has become is clear. America invades other nations and cheers but when
> the going gets rough they watch Fox News and dont sign up.

<shrug>

Wars have always been fought by a comparatively few. Even in World War 2,
fewer than 1 in 8 in the military were in the combat arms. So I am perplexed
at your bizarre notion that one must be in combat in order to support a war.
Certainly, my views are not discounted by the combat veterans (all Vietnam)
I know personally. Nor do their views on Iraq differ from mine.

But *I* find despicable is the way that you *claim* to support the troops.
Curious though, that folks like you constantly whine about our immenent
defeat, thereby giving hope to our enemies. I think that I prefer the way
you morons acted in the 1960s -- at least then, you were honest about how
much you hated the troops. In any case, your dishonestly fools no one but
yourselves. Most of the troops recognize what side you're really on. This is
why 4/5ths of them voted Republican in the last elections...

So bobby -- do you think a majority of Iraqis wish that Saddam were still in
power?

<non-answer predicted again>

--Ty


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