Atreides Battle Language
Sön Goen
mixture of both?
And would Jessica have had a hand in modifying it with some of what the BG
uses?
I just find it curious (as a linguist myself), that if it were a form of
sign language, learning other languages would be easier, if taught from an
early age of course. [Studies find that children that learn ASL or ISL are
quite clever and learn other languages easier AND it's somewhat like working
on their brain's "muscles" whenever used].
SG
Brandon Anderson
slight movement in the hands that may look like random gestures. Then again, I
may be confusing it with something else...
John Kenny
"Sön Goen" <val...@spankmail.com> wrote in message
news:Vtgx9.145216$mxk1...@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
Dear SG,
I can't recall any specific passage, but I have always taken Atreides Battle
Language to be a form of signing.
John
Matt Slot
> I am puzzled: is the ABL verbal/written, a form of sign language, or a
> mixture of both?
The military and SWAT both use a non-verbal sign language, and I basically
figured it was some variant or extension of that.
Matt
--
/* Matt Slot * Bitwise Operator * <http://www.ambrosiasw.com/~fprefect/> *
* "Did I do something wrong today or has the world always been like this *
* and I've been too wrapped up in myself to notice?" - Arthur Dent/H2G2 */
Gandalf
Some quotes:
[quote]
"Guard that knife," the Duke said.
"I understand, m'Lord." He patted the transceiver on his belt kit. "I'll
report soon as possible. Thufir has my call code. Use battle language."
He saluted, spun about, and hurried after the Fremen.
[/quote]
IMHO, this indicates a spoken language or a series of codes.
[quote]
The mind goes on working no matter how we try to hold it back, she
thought. Jessica found the tiny receiver Idaho had left for them, flipped
its switch. A green light glowed on the instrument's face. Tinny
screeching came from its speaker. She reduced the volume, hunted across
the bands. A voice speaking Atreides battle language came into the tent.
[/quote]
A voice speaking it. Clear enough I guess :)
And from the appendix:
[quote]
BATTLE LANGUAGE: any special language of restricted etymology developed
for clear-speech communication in warfare.
[/quote]
I hope this answers your question.
--
[Gio]
----
http://www.nmmusic.nl
http://www.nmmusic.nl/dune
http://www.geocities.com/gio_sf
-------------------
Expect me when you see me.
-Gandalf (Lord of the Rings)
Expect me when you see me.
-Galen (Crusade)
Ty Beard
news:e4nx9.1255$bE1...@news.bellsouth.net...
> I can't recall any specific passage, but I have always taken Atreides
Battle
> Language to be a form of signing.
IIRC, Paul heard Atriedes Battle Language on the radio, so some forms of it
must be verbal. However, I suspect that there's a verbal and signing
version.
--Ty
Gunnar Harboe
>alt.fan.dune has changed. I can feel it in the earth. I can feel it in
>the water. I can smell it in the air. Ergo, Sön Goen wrote:
>
>> I am puzzled: is the ABL verbal/written, a form of sign language,
>> or a
>> mixture of both?
>> And would Jessica have had a hand in modifying it with some of what
>> the BG uses?
>>
>> I just find it curious (as a linguist myself), that if it were a form
>> of sign language, learning other languages would be easier, if taught
>> from an early age of course. [Studies find that children that learn
>> ASL or ISL are quite clever and learn other languages easier AND it's
>> somewhat like working on their brain's "muscles" whenever used].
>
>Some quotes:
>I hope this answers your question.
Very good. However, compare this from GEoD:
The women of the Guard all wore skintight green uniforms, each with
a red Atreides hawk at the left breast.
"They watch him very closely," Leto said.
"Yes. He is teaching them hand signals. He says it's the Atreides
way."
"That is certainly correct. I wonder why the previous one didn't do
that?"
Or this from HoD:
Duncan saw it, too. At the stygian outlet of the tunnel, he
identified her by smell and tapped out a message against her arm in the
old Atreides silent battle language.
"Let them lead."
The form of the message startled her momentarily until she realized
that the ghola of course would know this communication method.
Or from Ch:D:
As Streggi left, Odrade thought of Sheeana and Idaho. She wants to
talk to him and he wants to talk to her.
Comeye analysis noted that these two sometimes conversed by
hand-signals while hiding most of the movements with their bodies. It
had the look of an old Atreides battle language. Odrade recognized some
of it but not enough to determine content.
--
Bye!
Gunnar Harboe
gh...@cam.ac.uk
The alt.fan.dune FAQ
<http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~gh248/dunefaq/>
___
There should be a word-tension for "fated," conveying
a meaning opposite from a thing destined to be. There
should also be a garnish-tension for "parsley,"
denoting the opposite of the leafy herb. Oh, we speak
in daily discourse of "anti-parsley," but that is
another thing entire. What the word for a thing is
can consequent much.
- from "Mauve'Bib Has Ideas and Speaks Them,"
edited by the Princess Serutan
Xavier Al-Kadar
"Gunnar Harboe" <gh...@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:hr5dsu06upf8htblr...@4ax.com...
> Or this from HoD:
>
> Duncan saw it, too. At the stygian outlet of the tunnel, he
> identified her by smell and tapped out a message against her arm in the
> old Atreides silent battle language.
> "Let them lead."
> The form of the message startled her momentarily until she realized
> that the ghola of course would know this communication method.
Notice that it's "silent battle language" instead of just "battle language",
so that suggests that there were forms of battle language that were not
silent.
Russ
Isn't the Atreides battle language related to Chokobsa. And I recall mention
of it having a lot of glottal stops, meaning a spoken language.
Russ
Susan Hogarth
Yes, but then Ghola-Duncan uses it with Lucilla when they are in flight on Gammu
- and he uses a form which is touch only.
--
Susan Hogarth
Russ
I also have a vague recollection that Paul and Jessica could hear the Atreides
troops using the battle language over the radio during the Harkonnen/Sardaukar
attack.
I suspect there would be both. An army would need to communicate verbally.
However, between individual soldiers in situations where silence much be
maintained, hand a finger signals could be developed to get basic ideas across.
Russ
Gandalf
> I also have a vague recollection that Paul and Jessica could hear the
> Atreides troops using the battle language over the radio during the
> Harkonnen/Sardaukar attack.
>
> I suspect there would be both. An army would need to communicate
> verbally. However, between individual soldiers in situations where
> silence much be maintained, hand a finger signals could be developed
> to get basic ideas across.
>
> Russ
As written earlier in this thread:
[quote]
The mind goes on working no matter how we try to hold it back, she
thought. Jessica found the tiny receiver Idaho had left for them, flipped
its switch. A green light glowed on the instrument's face. Tinny
screeching came from its speaker. She reduced the volume, hunted across
the bands. A voice speaking Atreides battle language came into the tent.
[/quote]
--
[Gio]
-------------------
Expect me when you see me.
-Gandalf (Lord of the Rings)
Expect me when you see me.
-Galen (Crusade)
Expect me when you see me.
-G'Kar (Babylon 5)
Gandalf
Maybe opposed to other Family's Battle Languages? It is not clear here it
is stated that it is a distinction from different styles with the
Atreides only.
--
[Gio]
-------------------
Expect me when you see me.
-Gandalf (Lord of the Rings)
Expect me when you see me.
-Galen (Crusade)
Expect me when you see me.
-G'Kar (Babylon 5)
orgone
>
<snip vague references>
i don't think that contradicts anything. it is obviously both spoken and signs.
seems mostly in reference to the silent signals but iirc there are occasions
when it was actually spoken (and translated for us) in Dune.
"...I hold in most profound detestation and execration the corruptions which
have been invested by priestcraft and established by kingcraft, constituting a
conspiracy of church and state against the civil and religious liberties of
mankind..."
orgone
>Gammu
>- and he uses a form which is touch only.
a million years after paul's million year old son. hardly proof of anything.
though i doubt herbert wasn't doing things like this on purpose to make a
comment about how "history" works.
orgone
>is stated that it is a distinction from different styles with the
>Atreides only.
>
just to clear things up, this is from the book Dune maybe some of you have read
it...it's a passage from the book itself.
"A voice speaking Atreides battle language came into the tent."
in case you missed it, again...
"A voice speaking Atreides battle language came into the tent."
"A voice speaking Atreides battle language came into the tent."
"A voice speaking Atreides battle language came into the tent."
"A voice speaking Atreides battle language came into the tent."
"A voice speaking Atreides battle language came into the tent."
i think that's it for this thread.
Gandalf
>>Maybe opposed to other Family's Battle Languages? It is not clear here
>>it is stated that it is a distinction from different styles with the
>>Atreides only.
>>
>
> just to clear things up, this is from the book Dune maybe some of you
> have read it...it's a passage from the book itself.
>
> "A voice speaking Atreides battle language came into the tent."
>
> in case you missed it, again...
> "A voice speaking Atreides battle language came into the tent."
> "A voice speaking Atreides battle language came into the tent."
> "A voice speaking Atreides battle language came into the tent."
> "A voice speaking Atreides battle language came into the tent."
> "A voice speaking Atreides battle language came into the tent."
> i think that's it for this thread.
I case you don't read threads:
[quote]
The mind goes on working no matter how we try to hold it back, she
thought. Jessica found the tiny receiver Idaho had left for them, flipped
its switch. A green light glowed on the instrument's face. Tinny
screeching came from its speaker. She reduced the volume, hunted across
the bands. A voice speaking Atreides battle language came into the tent.
[/quote]
This was said on monday, so you aren't really saying anything new :-p
Nick Cassimatis
Radio communication uses codes (plus encoding the transmission, plus
frequency jumping, plus other stuff) to communicate clearly, quickly, with
lowered chances of the enemy intercepting and understanding the
transmission.
Combat units use hand/arm signals to communicate non-verbally during a
battle. If you're firing an M-60, it's hard to hear, "Shoot over there!"
but it's easy to see some hand/arm signals.
So the only "stretch" from currently used communications is the touch
language from HOD. And it's not much of a stretch - Vietnam POW's developed
the tap language. One that I remember in particular, while being forced to
read a statement, sent Morse code by blinking his eyes. So why not do Morse
code - the Atreides Silent Battle Language - on someone's arm if you can
touch but make no noise?
English is written (you're reading it now), verbal (you're yelling, "What a
bonehead!" at me now), and tactile (Braille, anyone?). So why not the
Atreides Battle Language, too?
--
Nick Cassimatis
There is more than one way to skin a cat, so you'll go through a lot of cats
figuring them all out.
orgone
>frequency jumping, plus other stuff) to communicate clearly, quickly, with
>lowered chances of the enemy intercepting and understanding the
>transmission.
wow, then what was that VOICE doing SPEAKING. i see your point and it certainly
makes sense to some other topic but i think it's clear the abl is spoken.
otherwise "a voice" "speaking" it would be pretty impossable.
orgone
>
i'm aware of that but thanks. that was the point. also i'd like to point out it
says
"a VOICE (the sound that comes out of your mouth when you talk) SPEAKING (like
when you use your voice to talk) Atreides battle language came into the tent."
Juho Julkunen
> >Radio communication uses codes (plus encoding the transmission, plus
> >frequency jumping, plus other stuff) to communicate clearly, quickly, with
> >lowered chances of the enemy intercepting and understanding the
> >transmission.
>
> wow, then what was that VOICE doing SPEAKING. i see your point and it certainly
> makes sense to some other topic but i think it's clear the abl is spoken.
> otherwise "a voice" "speaking" it would be pretty impossable.
>
involve "A VOICE" "SPEAKING".
Now, as you so brilliantly have noticed, that quote from Dune does prove
that Atreidres Battle Language is spoken. (And is, in itself, the "code"
Nick mentioned. Kinda like Navajo language employed by the Americans in
the second world war. In fact, that is precisely the point of a Battle
Language; it's a language the enemy can't understand.)
You will hopefully also realize that one example of a battle language
being spoken does not prove that it can't also be used silently. As
Nick (and please, leave the attributions in in the future. And if AOL
doesn't allow this, please add them manually) pointed out. And as other
quotes than the one you have superfluously repeated a million time
prove.
JTJ
--
WIT, n. The salt with which the American humorist spoils his
intellectual cookery by leaving it out.
--Devil's Dictionary
orgone
>being spoken does not prove that it can't also be used silently.
and is i said in a previous post i believe it can be and is a combination of
the two. i think my first post would be the reference but i don't recall.
>As
>Nick (and please, leave the attributions in in the future. And if AOL
>doesn't allow this, please add them manually) pointed out.
yes, perhaps you could do the same.
it seemed other posters were trying to indicate it was not a spoken thing
because of actual real world military battle languages (which really wouldn't
apply to dune since dune is a book) are mostly signs and hidden gestures.
David Wright
"Ty Beard" <tbe...@tyler.net> wrote in message
news:uscor6l...@corp.supernews.com...
And in HoD, when it is dark, Duncan uses touch to convery caution to
Lucilla. Sounds like the language uses many parts. It would make sense. You
need to talk in code over the radio so that you cannot be 'overheard' (i.e.
understood), when you are in a room, you can talk nonsense to those around
you, but sign to your compatriots - this was also used in DM, Paul signed an
order to Stilgar and followed it up with a verbal code (iirc it was that the
Guild Ambassador was allowed to approach). And if you are moving in close
proximity in the dark and can't talk, then touch is a perfect method of
communication - when you don't have TP.
> --Ty
>
>