the word 'sietch'

Monde Kontrolle

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Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96

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is it pronounced 'sEYEtch' or 'sEEtch'?

for some reason as i'm reading the books i keep wanting to pronounce it
'sitch', as in 'situation'.

it's been 12 years since i've seen the movie <and now after reading the
books i really want to see it again but can't seem to find it anywhere> and
i cannot remember how it was pronounced in the movie.

--
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mo...@sirius.com ::::::::::::::::::::|| :: at the door... :::::::::::
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Free

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Nov 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/12/96

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I've always pronounced it "sEEtch," as, inso far as I can tell, Sietch is
derived from seige, a place of safety.

-Free

RAN

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Nov 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/13/96

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On Tue, 12 Nov 1996 09:58:20 -0800, Monde Kontrolle (mo...@sirius.com)
wrote...

> is it pronounced 'sEYEtch' or 'sEEtch'?
>
> for some reason as i'm reading the books i keep wanting to pronounce it
> 'sitch', as in 'situation'.

As far as I know, the word "sietch" was never used in the movie.
However, if you want to pronounce it just as Frank Herbert did, the
proper way is this:

sEE-AYtch

It's kind of like pronouncing the letters "c" and "h" together.
SEE-AYtch. :)
That's the way Mr. Herbert says it repeatedly in one of the
tapes/LPs put out by Caedmon Records some years ago (either "Battles of
Dune", or "Truths of Dune"). I have no idea what the etymological
significance of the word is; however, that IS the way he pronounces it.
--
Regards,

R. Alan Nunes

_ _ ________________
/ \ / \ /________________ R. Alan Nunes
//\ \//\ \// ___o___________
// \_/ \_/ (_______________ Mail: RNu...@Mensa.member.org

Tony

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Nov 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/14/96

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In <MPG.cf3e41bb...@207.126.101.78> RNu...@Mensa.member.org

(RAN) writes:
>
>
> On Tue, 12 Nov 1996 09:58:20 -0800, Monde Kontrolle
(mo...@sirius.com)
>wrote...
>
>> is it pronounced 'sEYEtch' or 'sEEtch'?
>>
>> for some reason as i'm reading the books i keep wanting to pronounce
it
>> 'sitch', as in 'situation'.
>
>
> As far as I know, the word "sietch" was never used in the movie.

>However, if you want to pronounce it just as Frank Herbert did, the
>proper way is this:
>
> sEE-AYtch
>
> It's kind of like pronouncing the letters "c" and "h" together.

>SEE-AYtch. :)
> That's the way Mr. Herbert says it repeatedly in one of the
>tapes/LPs put out by Caedmon Records some years ago (either "Battles
of
>Dune", or "Truths of Dune"). I have no idea what the etymological
>significance of the word is; however, that IS the way he pronounces
it.

Some other Dune pronunciations startled me when I heard FH on an
interview on the old Larry King radio show (Mutual Broadcasting) about
10 years ago. He pronounced "Fremen" like this: with a short "e", not
a long "e" which would give "free-men". He pronounced Dr. Yueh's name
"yoo-ee", not "yoo-ay" as I had imagined. He pronounced melange not
as the French would ("may-'lahnzh") but instead as an American who
didn't know French would say it: "muh-landge". One pronunciation
that baffled me at first was "Bene Gesserit". When I first read the
book (as a college freshman) I said "bean ghes-SER-rit" with a hard
"g". When I heard the interview, he said it more like, "Bennie
JESS-er-it", pronouncing the final "e" on "Bene" and making the "G"
soft as in "Jesuit". FH did say they were conceived as sort of female
Jesuits (on that King show). What is the etymology of the term? He
didn't say. Is "Bene" the Latin for "well" (adv.)? Or is it
something like "B'nai" as in the B'nai B'rith (a large American Jewish
organization)? I don't know what "B'nai" means in that name -- does
anybody know?

I don't remember him saying "sietch". I had always envisioned "seech"
too, reminiscent of "siege". I'm shocked it was never uttered in the
movie. What a huge oversight to leave such a crucial term out.

Tony

Free

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Nov 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/14/96

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Yes, well, as many people complain about on this ng, many things were
left out of the movie (although I loved it.) I've been thinking quite a
bit recently about the entymology of "Bene Gesserit" as well, and haven't
caught it yet. Any ideas for them, and the Bene Tlielax while we're at
it? I'm sure THEY are based somewhere in Arabic or Aramic, but alas have
NO information on these languages here in West Texas.

-Free

Chris Groom

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Nov 15, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/15/96

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The following was submitted...

<Monde Kontrolle <mo...@sirius.com> wrote in article
<monde-ya02318000...@news.sirius.com>...

> is it pronounced 'sEYEtch' or 'sEEtch'?
>
> for some reason as i'm reading the books i keep wanting to pronounce it
> 'sitch', as in 'situation'.
>

> it's been 12 years since i've seen the movie <and now after reading the
> books i really want to see it again but can't seem to find it anywhere>
and
> i cannot remember how it was pronounced in the movie.
>
> --
> -------------------------------------++------------------------------
> demi monde :: aka :: monde kontrolle || please suspend your disbelief
> mo...@sirius.com ::::::::::::::::::::|| :: at the door... :::::::::::
> the compound eye BBS: 415.333.5665 ::|| :: violators will be violated
> -------------------------------------++------------------------------
> :::::::defenestration: http://www.sirius.com/~monde/main.html :::::::
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>

It is pronounced SEE tch
Cheers,
Chr...@netactive.co.za

jedu...@aol.com

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Nov 16, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/16/96

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if you watch the movie again (usually the version seen on the disney
channel or the two-part bit of mush they show on the broadcast channels),
you'll see the scene in which stilgar tells paul that his "secret name,
only known to those in your sietch, will be usul, the base of the pillar."

Hitch

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Nov 17, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/17/96

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Hi, Gang!

I've <SNIPPED> the earlier conversation about sietch, which has been
discussed to death. "Bene Gesserit" - Latin - "for the Good" or "of the
Good," take your pick as to translation. Based upon current latin
pronunciation, which is not the original pronunciation, Bene Gesserit -
with a soft "G" as in "J" - is correct. To the best of my knowledge, no
translation has ever been supplied for "Tleilax," although Andrew and I,
via e-mail, did some research on this, and I am fairly certain that it is a
bastardization of a Tlaxascan language - in other words, something FH heard
while living in Mexico that he either misunderstood, or slang that does not
show up in a Nahuatl dictionary.

I do not understand, Tony, your confusion, pronunciation-wise, about Fremen
or Yueh; these seem pretty clear to me. As far as "melange," the question
is - in what usage? (No pun intended). The french pronunciation is one
thing; the american - either MAY-lazh or MAY-lanj; (FH's pronunciation of
"MUH-lanj," as you put it, may simply have been his own regional accent
affecting the "A" sound); and our friends across the pond, the brits,
pronounce it more like "MUHlazh", without much of a syllable break, if any.
The Brits don't pronounce the "n" in the second syllable. Ergo, the
pronunciation, since it is a term FH borrowed to describe something that
doesn't exist, is entirely up to the reader.....and the nation from which
he/she originates (not to mention the region).

Hitch

Free <pat...@webstar.net> wrote in article <328BD3...@webstar.net>...

> Tony wrote:
> >
> > In <MPG.cf3e41bb...@207.126.101.78> RNu...@Mensa.member.org
> > (RAN) writes:
> > On Tue, 12 Nov 1996 09:58:20 -0800, Monde Kontrolle
> > (mo...@sirius.com)
> > >wrote...

> > >> is it pronounced 'sEYEtch' or 'sEEtch'?
> > >> for some reason as i'm reading the books i keep wanting to pronounce
> > it
> > >> 'sitch', as in 'situation'.

Sharon Gefen

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Nov 17, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/17/96

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Hi there,

I actually think that "Bene Gesserit" should be pronounced something like
"gish-rit", since lots of the "dune-words" come either from hebrew or from
arabic, and "gesher" in hebrew means "bridge". moreover, "bene" can
originate from the hebrew words "b'nai"="b'ney" (sons) or "b'not"
(daughters). therefore, making the Bene Gesserit the "bridge keepers" or
some kind of a "bridge to the past/future" thru their work.
the first time i read Dune, i read it in hebrew, and the connection
looked almost obvious (and still does after 9 years of re-reading it both
in hebrew and in english).
I have no idea about sietch or fremen and how they should be pronounced,
but there are lots of other "dune words" that seem to have some
resemblence to semitic languages either in sound or in the way the words
are built (sorry, can't give any immediate answers without checking my
copy...)

hope I helped some wondering people, I guess there aren't many hebrew or
arabic speakers around here...

Sharon

Tony

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Nov 17, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/17/96

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In <Pine.UW2.3.94.961117175213.17708B-100000@micro1> Sharon Gefen
<msh...@micro1.mscc.huji.ac.il> writes:
>

>> > > As far as I know, the word "sietch" was never used in the
movie.
>> >
>> > >However, if you want to pronounce it just as Frank Herbert did,
the
>> > >proper way is this:
>> > >
>> > > sEE-AYtch
>> > >
>> > > It's kind of like pronouncing the letters "c" and "h"
together.

I think Herbert was f#cking with us on this one. He had a wonderful
imagination, one of a kind, but he can't simply reconstruct the rules
of orthography and pronunciation. Somewhere in the books he mentioned
that "sietch" was a word from "Chakobsa" which was an ancient language
that the Atreides also happened to use as their "battle language".
Now, how it got to be used among the Fremen on Dune I have no idea.

Usually, when transcribing foreign words into English (to make them
easier for English-speaking people to read), linguists or authors use
the simplest, most straightforward rules of ENGLISH spelling and
orthography to transliterate the foreign letters or symbols into
English phonetic equivalents. I assume that the Chakobsa language had
entirely different sounds and letters from English. The word "sietch"
would on its face appear to be a transliteration by some linguist or
author (in this case it was actually Herbert) from its original form
into a form more friendly to the ENGLISH speaker (I make this
assumption mainly because of the "-tch" combination on the end of the
word, which is relatively common in English -- bitch, witch, hitch,
stitch, etc.; I know of no other European or other language which uses
this three-letter combination on the end of words.) The "tch"
combination appears also in German, but I don't think it ever appears
at the ends of words. In any event, in English it is a way of
representing unambiguously the hard "ch" sound.

Building on that assumption, I would naturally also want to pronounce
the "ie" combination also as it appears in English words. That is, I
would NOT tend to employ an "ie" diphthong (pronounced as in the
example, allegedly from Herbert, you gave above -- "ee-ay"), but
instead as is common in English, to wit: in the words lien, mien,
thief, retrieve, believe, and belief, among many others.

Therefore, "sietch" would be a ONE-SYLLABLE word, pronounced simply
"seech", not a two-syllable word in which the "i" and "e" were two
separate sounds.

The only other possibility is that "sietch" is not a transliteration at
all, but appears in the books exactly as it is supposed to in the
original language. For many reasons, I think this is highly
unlikely.

Tony

Free

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Nov 17, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/17/96

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Thanks Hitch! That makes perfect sense for the BG; my Latin, I'm afraid,
is the typical American dosage of about nine words and three phrases, and
so I missed that completely.

Sharon - your translation also makes perfect sense, and it seems natural
in my mind for Herbert to do a word play like that. The Bene Gesserit, at
least, are solved in my mind. Now, if only I could figure out the
Tleilax. It's got to have something do either with their genetics
experiments, or Islam.

-Free

Tony

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Nov 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/18/96

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In <01bbd456$e19d9ee0$7d2e44c6@hitch> "Hitch" <hi...@primenet.com>
writes:

>
The french pronunciation is one
>thing; the american - either MAY-lazh or MAY-lanj; (FH's pronunciation
of
>"MUH-lanj," as you put it, may simply have been his own regional
accent
>affecting the "A" sound); and our friends across the pond, the brits,
>pronounce it more like "MUHlazh", without much of a syllable break, if
any.
> The Brits don't pronounce the "n" in the second syllable. Ergo, the
>pronunciation, since it is a term FH borrowed to describe something

Hitch, I think I forgot to point out in my post that Herbert was using
the flat "a" sound (as in the American "and") and not the so-called
"short" English "a" as in "car", which is closer to the French "a" when
nasalized in "an". Thus he pronounced "melange" to rhyme with the
American English "flange", and did not say the "an" sound as in French
"etranger". To me, that's odd because most people who use the word
"melange" (I don't mean Dune fans, I mean just people who are trying to
use the French ----> English loan word for "mixture") pronounce it more
closely to the French. One would think that if Herbert were
conversant in French (he was a very knowledgable guy) he would
pronounce it in the French way.

Tony

Paul Atreides

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Nov 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/18/96

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I have both the long version and the short version of Dune and did not
see this in it. In the scene Stilgar says "You have strength, you will
be known as Usul, which is the strength of the base of the pillar. This
is how you will be called in our troop." This is just after the fight
with Jamis, which is not in the short version.

Hitch

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Nov 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/18/96

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Tony:

Some humor intended here: Are you referring to the flat "a" as in "and,"
as it is pronounced between NJ and Connecticut? The "a" as it is
pronounced further north? Or perhaps as it is pronounced from Virginia
south to S. Carolina? Or the flat "a" of "and" as it is pronounced in the
southern heartland of the midwest?

I'm really not trying to be too sarcastic, but the word "flange," for
example, is very short in the northeast, but is almost "flaa-aange" in the
south central midwest. In other words, as I said before, FH's
pronunciation could be very well influenced by the region of his
upbringing...or, more likely, he may perhaps be like my sister and mother,
and NOT like me - neither one of them have any ear whatsoever for
languages. Both are well-educated and erudite; but they have the
equivalency of tone-deafness when it comes to ANY foreign language. (They
can both sing, FYI). Considering how many I can speak, (and others in the
family) and the ability to pick up almost any language in an
extraordinarily short period of time, their "language deafness" leaves me
speechless, as it does the others in the fam whom CAN speak other
languages. It seems to be some innate, perhaps genetic, disability. They
just CAN'T do it. Despite Herbert's intellect, it may be that he was
similarly afflicted; just because he can read and write another language
does not mean he can speak it (my sister can read and write fluently in two
languages other than english but can't speak an intelligible word of either
- at least, not to anyone who DOES speak them). Perhaps this is a possible
solution to your question? I agree that otherwise, it seems an odd
pronunciation for Herbert.

Then again, as I said before, perhaps he simply decided that since he
borrowed the spelling of the word, and not specifically the meaning, he
could pronounce it any damn way he wanted to!!! :)

Hitch

Tony <ols...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<56orkp$n...@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com>...

Hugo Ricardo Gonzalez Gonzalez

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Nov 20, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/20/96

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> is it pronounced 'sEYEtch' or 'sEEtch'?
>
> for some reason as i'm reading the books i keep wanting to pronounce it
> 'sitch', as in 'situation'.

May I add the pronunciation I use?

When reading I say (in my mind) 'see'-'etch'.

> it's been 12 years since i've seen the movie <and now after reading the
> books i really want to see it again but can't seem to find it anywhere> and
> i cannot remember how it was pronounced in the movie.

It's been more than 10 years since I saw the movie, and I can remember
that it was very hard to me to follow the plot (I was very young), I
dont remember the movie almost at all. But I think I read a message in
this newsgroup that said that there was not a word 'sietch' in the
movie. (please correct me if I am wrong)

Hugo Ricardo Gonzalez Gonzalez

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Nov 20, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/20/96

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> Hitch wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Gang!
> >
> > I've <SNIPPED> the earlier conversation about sietch, which has been
> > discussed to death. "Bene Gesserit" - Latin - "for the Good" or "of the
> > Good," take your pick as to translation. Based upon current latin
> > pronunciation, which is not the original pronunciation, Bene Gesserit -
> > with a soft "G" as in "J" - is correct. To the best of my knowledge, no
> > translation has ever been supplied for "Tleilax," although Andrew and I,
> > via e-mail, did some research on this, and I am fairly certain that it is a
> > bastardization of a Tlaxascan language - in other words, something FH heard
> > while living in Mexico that he either misunderstood, or slang that does not
> > show up in a Nahuatl dictionary.

In the second book (DM) FH mentions something about 'axolotl tanks',
axolotl is a nahuatl word that refers to a kind of salamander.

I didn't know FH lived in Mexico, when? for how long?

Does anyone remember the name of the desert in Mexico, or the state,
where the 'Dune' film was shot? Maybe I am going to Northern Mexico on
this Christmas Holydays and I'd like to see the location.

Sharon Gefen

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Nov 20, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/20/96

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[snip]

On Sun, 17 Nov 1996, Free wrote:
Now, if only I could figure out the
> Tleilax. It's got to have something do either with their genetics
> experiments, or Islam.
>
> -Free

Hi,
thanx for ruining my day! i found myself thinking about the tleilax
question for almost a whole day, and the only thing i could find was maybe
a relation to the Hebrew word "t'lai" which means "patch" - in the context
of genetics it doesn't make much sense, but it does in the context of
organ transplanting - making "patchwork people" or something like that
(it sort of imposes a meaning rather than being a "natural" one, i think)
however, I did start thinking about other words, and i came up with some:
* "Kwisatz haderech" = "kfisat harerech" which means: "the jump of the
way" or rather - a short cut !!!
* "Kitab al Ibr" - could be "the book of the hebrew" (the Bible ?!) -
raises the question: did the Fremen originate in some way from the jews ?
i think there might be a connection - considering the jewish cult that
appears in one of the last books - (was it "chapterhouse" ?) one might
think that Herbert had this in mind. anyway, the Islam also originates
from Judaism so that might be it.
* "Soo-Soo-Sook" - according to my roommate, who is of jewish-syrian
origin, the "saka" is the water vendor in the syrian dialect. another
friend of mine claims that the "sook" is in charge of the water during the
"Haj" ceremonies in Mecca (I guess i might have had more answers
regarding arabic if i hadn't slept thru most of the Arabic lessons in
school) .
* the name "Alia" might come from the word "Aliya" which means
"rising/going up" - Alia as some superior being ?
That's it for now, I can't really remember more semitic-originated
"Dune-words". if anybody has any ideas or questions - I'd be happy to
check them out, however, i am not some linguistics student or something
(one can hardly say that about us psych & journalism students...) so take
everything i said here with a grain of salt (or spice).

Sharon

ma...@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de

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Nov 20, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/20/96

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On 14 Nov 1996 22:31:07 GMT, ols...@ix.netcom.com (Tony) wrote:

> One pronunciation
>that baffled me at first was "Bene Gesserit". When I first read the
>book (as a college freshman) I said "bean ghes-SER-rit" with a hard
>"g". When I heard the interview, he said it more like, "Bennie
>JESS-er-it", pronouncing the final "e" on "Bene" and making the "G"
>soft as in "Jesuit". FH did say they were conceived as sort of female
>Jesuits (on that King show). What is the etymology of the term? He
>didn't say. Is "Bene" the Latin for "well" (adv.)? Or is it
>something like "B'nai" as in the B'nai B'rith (a large American Jewish
>organization)? I don't know what "B'nai" means in that name -- does
>anybody know?

I think "Bene" comes from "ben" which (I think) is Arab and means
"descendant of". So e.g. Ali Ben Halef means that Halef was Ali's
father. Any Arabs here ?

Marco

Hitch

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Nov 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/21/96

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Hi, Gang!

See comment below.

Hitch

Sharon Gefen <msh...@micro1.mscc.huji.ac.il> wrote in article
<Pine.UW2.3.94.961120092133.25309A-100000@micro1>...

>
> [snip]
>
> On Sun, 17 Nov 1996, Free wrote:
> Now, if only I could figure out the
> > Tleilax. It's got to have something do either with their genetics
> > experiments, or Islam.
> >
> > -Free
> Hi,
> thanx for ruining my day! i found myself thinking about the tleilax
> question for almost a whole day, and the only thing i could find was
maybe
> a relation to the Hebrew word "t'lai" which means "patch" - in the
context
> of genetics it doesn't make much sense, but it does in the context of
> organ transplanting - making "patchwork people" or something like that
> (it sort of imposes a meaning rather than being a "natural" one, i think)
> however, I did start thinking about other words, and i came up with some:
> * "Kwisatz haderech" = "kfisat harerech" which means: "the jump of the
> way" or rather - a short cut !!!

Well, since Paul was supposed to be "The Shortening of the Way," I assume
there is some validity in this suggestion.

> * "Kitab al Ibr" - could be "the book of the hebrew" (the Bible ?!) -
> raises the question: did the Fremen originate in some way from the jews ?
> i think there might be a connection - considering the jewish cult that
> appears in one of the last books - (was it "chapterhouse" ?) one might
> think that Herbert had this in mind. anyway, the Islam also originates
> from Judaism so that might be it.

I don't see any connection between the Fremen and the Jews on Gammu in
Chapterhouse; most of the Fremen words - i.e., "Jihad" are arabic or
islamic in nature, as are many of their customs. If memory serves, the
Fremen were wandering Zensunni who sought sanctuary on Arrakis. (Not Sufi,
i.e., mystic islamics, as are the Tleilaxu). Ergo, they are a mix of early
earth customs rolled into one, with both buddhist and islamic overtones
(interesting mix!), which seems somewhat natural considering their physical
environment. Also bear in mind that FH wrote much of the original Dune in
response to the oil crisis and OPEC. Many on this ng were not even born
yet, but I stood in hour-long gas lines while it was on-going. FH had
arabic nations "on the brain," so to speak, when he created the Spice as an
analogy for oil.

> * "Soo-Soo-Sook" - according to my roommate, who is of jewish-syrian
> origin, the "saka" is the water vendor in the syrian dialect. another
> friend of mine claims that the "sook" is in charge of the water during
the
> "Haj" ceremonies in Mecca (I guess i might have had more answers
> regarding arabic if i hadn't slept thru most of the Arabic lessons in
> school) .
> * the name "Alia" might come from the word "Aliya" which means
> "rising/going up" - Alia as some superior being ?

Sigh....Alia = Latin for "Other." This is logical; bear in mind that in
the streets they call Alia the "Coan-Teen," which is an old roman (latin)
term for "Whore."

> That's it for now, I can't really remember more semitic-originated
> "Dune-words". if anybody has any ideas or questions - I'd be happy to
> check them out, however, i am not some linguistics student or something
> (one can hardly say that about us psych & journalism students...) so take
> everything i said here with a grain of salt (or spice).
>
> Sharon
>

Hitch

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Nov 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/21/96

to

Dear Hugo:

To the best of my knowledge, FH resided in Mexico City for at least part of
the time while he was writing the first Dune....some of our resident
archivists can probably answer this more accurately than I. There was a
post with regard to the Axolotl - the salamander - some time back, as
memory serves. I ran across the nahuatl language during some research on
the east coast, and have, as I mentioned in my post, been attempting to
find something similar to "Tleilax" in any dictionaries I can uncover.

Since I'm not a big fan of the film, I cannot answer your question about
where portions of the movie were shot; although many portions of the desert
in the movie Dune resemble very strongly the Yuma dunes in Arizona as
opposed to most of the northern Mexican desert. I'm certain one of the
movie fans can point you in the correct direction.

Hitch

Hugo Ricardo Gonzalez Gonzalez <hugg...@infosel.net.mx> wrote in article
<3292D4...@infosel.net.mx>...

Hitch

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Nov 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/21/96

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Dear Marco:

Please see my post on the origin of the term Bene Gesserit (latin for "for
the good" or "of the good"). This is NOT a cavalier translation - the term
bene gesserit is a term of law, and has been in use for centuries.

Hitch

ma...@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de wrote in article
<328f5566...@news.rwth-aachen.de>...

Hitch

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Nov 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/21/96

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Dear Free:

FYI, as I posted to Marco a few minutes ago, my translation of Bene
Gesserit was not literal or cavalier, in the sense one might think. The
term bene gesserit is a term of law, and has been in use as such for
centuries. Sharon's suggestion is creative, but I believe that FH intended
to use the term BG as it is meant - "of the good" or "for the good."

As far as the Tleilaxu, I still think it is a bastardization of a nahuatl
word. This topic (what does "Tleilaxu" mean?) has been bandied about to
great length on this ng in the past, and no one's come up with the answer
yet, despite native-born speakers of many languages.

Hitch

Free <pat...@webstar.net> wrote in article <328FBB...@webstar.net>...

> Thanks Hitch! That makes perfect sense for the BG; my Latin, I'm afraid,
> is the typical American dosage of about nine words and three phrases, and

> so I missed that completely.
>
> Sharon - your translation also makes perfect sense, and it seems natural
> in my mind for Herbert to do a word play like that. The Bene Gesserit, at

> least, are solved in my mind. Now, if only I could figure out the

> Tleilax. It's got to have something do either with their genetics
> experiments, or Islam.
>
> -Free
>

> Hitch wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Gang!
> >
> > I've <SNIPPED> the earlier conversation about sietch, which has been
> > discussed to death. "Bene Gesserit" - Latin - "for the Good" or "of
the
> > Good," take your pick as to translation. Based upon current latin
> > pronunciation, which is not the original pronunciation, Bene Gesserit -
> > with a soft "G" as in "J" - is correct. To the best of my knowledge,
no
> > translation has ever been supplied for "Tleilax," although Andrew and
I,
> > via e-mail, did some research on this, and I am fairly certain that it
is a
> > bastardization of a Tlaxascan language - in other words, something FH
heard
> > while living in Mexico that he either misunderstood, or slang that does
not
> > show up in a Nahuatl dictionary.
> >

> > I do not understand, Tony, your confusion, pronunciation-wise, about
Fremen
> > or Yueh; these seem pretty clear to me. As far as "melange," the
question

> > is - in what usage? (No pun intended). The french pronunciation is

one
> > thing; the american - either MAY-lazh or MAY-lanj; (FH's pronunciation
of
> > "MUH-lanj," as you put it, may simply have been his own regional accent
> > affecting the "A" sound); and our friends across the pond, the brits,
> > pronounce it more like "MUHlazh", without much of a syllable break, if
any.
> > The Brits don't pronounce the "n" in the second syllable. Ergo, the
> > pronunciation, since it is a term FH borrowed to describe something

co...@aol.com

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Nov 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/22/96

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Um. First post - so please be tolerant of any errors in protocol.

Pretty sure that the term sietch came from the old Russian Empire/Soviet
Union - either a Cossack or a Chechnyan term 'sech' - came across it
reading and was struck by its similarities to Dune. Wish I could remember
more. The word would probably be 'syech' in Russian - the ye can be
transliterated as ie (as in Turgenieff) and the ch as tch (as in
Tchelitchew).

It does not mean 'cave', but some sort of warrior polity.

By the way, has anyone assembled a list of probable sources for Dune?
Doughty's Travels in Arabia Deserta is an obvious one (and worth reading
for its own merit), as is T.E. Lawrence's Seven Pillars of Wisdom, but I
feel sure I'm missing many others - bits of Amerindian and I think Gypsy
lore? in addition to yoga, psychedelics, feudalism, ecology... If there is
a web site covering this, I would love the address.

Thank you.
Carlos

Jamal Faisal Al-Mutawa

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Nov 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/22/96

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Tony <ols...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article

<56g6jb$f...@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>...

> didn't say. Is "Bene" the Latin for "well" (adv.)? Or is it
> something like "B'nai" as in the B'nai B'rith (a large American Jewish
> organization)? I don't know what "B'nai" means in that name -- does
> anybody know?

IMHO Bene in Bene Gesserit is from the Arabic for tribe or literally
sons of Gesserit or offspring of Gesserit. For instance a few example
of old Arabic tribes is Bene Hashim (to which the prophet is descendant of,
and King Hussein of Jordan is descendant, thus the _Hashemite_ Kingdom of
Jordan), Bene Nazir, Bene Harith, etc.

--

Jamal Al-Mutawa
mailto: mut...@super.zippo.com

john fenton

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Nov 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/22/96

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In message <01bbd787$f63d7440$5a2e44c6@hitch> "Hitch" wrote:

> Dear Free:
>
> FYI, as I posted to Marco a few minutes ago, my translation of Bene
> Gesserit was not literal or cavalier, in the sense one might think. The
> term bene gesserit is a term of law, and has been in use as such for
> centuries. Sharon's suggestion is creative, but I believe that FH intended
> to use the term BG as it is meant - "of the good" or "for the good."
>
> As far as the Tleilaxu, I still think it is a bastardization of a nahuatl
> word. This topic (what does "Tleilaxu" mean?) has been bandied about to
> great length on this ng in the past, and no one's come up with the answer
> yet, despite native-born speakers of many languages.

This topic could be discussed for ever more without, of course, reaching
a definitive conclusion. For what it's worth here is my opinion.

I think that FH intended that the Semitic derived meaning was the primary
meaning of BG. 'Bene', as has been discussed here before, loosely
equates to 'Brotherhood' and that seems exactly applicable both to
the BG (well, 'sisterhood' in this case!) and the BT; this is more
satisfactory than trying to figure out what type of 'good' applies
to the Tleilaxu (ie, there is no Latin translation for 'Bene Tleilax').

However, I am equally certain that FH intended to play on the words
knowing that there was an alternative, Latin translation.

I find it interesting that 'Sharon's translation' echos that of a
previous contributor who derived a similar meaning by way of Arabic
rather than Hebrew. (I hope my memory is correct in this.) This
rather lends weight to that translation.

--
John Fenton
==============================================================
This message sent using an Acorn Risc PC 600 (+StrongARM)
Acorn : RISC based desktop computers since 1987

Andrew

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Nov 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/23/96

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Jamal Faisal Al-Mutawa <mut...@super.zippo.com> wrote in article
<01bbd88e$ee54a160$9d64bba8@pc1>...

> Jamal Al-Mutawa

Perhaps FH was aware of all these different possibilites, and wanted these
multiple meanings incorporated into the name "Bene Gesserit". Personally, I
believe the Latin translation offered previously is the best *single*
translation.

- Andrew.

Alexander Johannesen

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Nov 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/23/96

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Hi, Jamal,

Jamal Faisal Al-Mutawa wrote:
> IMHO Bene in Bene Gesserit is from the Arabic for tribe or literally
> sons of Gesserit or offspring of Gesserit. For instance a few example
> of old Arabic tribes is Bene Hashim (to which the prophet is descendant of,
> and King Hussein of Jordan is descendant, thus the _Hashemite_ Kingdom of
> Jordan), Bene Nazir, Bene Harith, etc.

Is it possible to get more translations of
the words in Dune, on those words that
are / look like Arabic? I think it would
be of much value to the readers here.

Kind regards,

Alexander

Monde

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Nov 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/23/96

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In article <3292D2...@infosel.net.mx>, Hugo Ricardo Gonzalez Gonzalez
<hugg...@infosel.net.mx> wrote:

> > is it pronounced 'sEYEtch' or 'sEEtch'?
> >
> > for some reason as i'm reading the books i keep wanting to pronounce it
> > 'sitch', as in 'situation'.
>
> May I add the pronunciation I use?
>
> When reading I say (in my mind) 'see'-'etch'.

apparently FH himself pronounced it see-AITCH.

> It's been more than 10 years since I saw the movie, and I can remember
> that it was very hard to me to follow the plot (I was very young), I
> dont remember the movie almost at all.

my problem was i was too stoned to follow the plot of the movie and at that
time i hadn't read the books yet. now that i have, i want to see it again,
although it seems to have been a disappointment by all accounts.

--
-------------------------------------++------------------------------
demi monde :: aka :: monde kontrolle || please suspend your disbelief
mo...@sirius.com ::::::::::::::::::::|| :: at the door... :::::::::::
the compound eye BBS: 415.333.5665 ::|| :: violators will be violated
-------------------------------------++------------------------------

::::::::::: defenestration: http://www.sirius.com/~monde ::::::::::::
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Tony

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Nov 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/23/96

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In <01bbd8fe$9fb8c5c0$2eaa20cc@#chacoy> "Andrew"

<sama...@geocities.com> writes:
>
>Perhaps FH was aware of all these different possibilites, and wanted
these
>multiple meanings incorporated into the name "Bene Gesserit".
Personally, I
>believe the Latin translation offered previously is the best *single*
>translation.
>
>- Andrew.

No! I have never heard this combination of "Latin" words. Where is
hitch getting this from?? First of all, "bene" does not mean "of the
good". The Latin word "bene" translates to the English adverb "well",
as in "I am feeling well" or "She is well-read". The Latin word for
"good" is bonum, or bona.

As for "gesserit", I have never seen this word presented as a "Latin"
word anywhere. Hitch offered no explanation for its English
equivalent apart from what he said about "Bene". He translated the
entire phrase "Bene Gesserit" as "Of the Good" or "For the Good", based
only on a translation (or rather mistranlsation) of one of the words,
"Bene". That still doesn't explain "Gesserit". Hitch said "Bene
Gesserit" is a legal term. Well, as a lawyer I have never heard it; I
looked it up in a legal dictionary and couldn't find it.

I find the most convincing translation or explanation for "Bene
Gesserit", by far, to be the one offered that it's a Hebrew phrase
having something to do with a bridge. The Semitic (Hebrew + Arabic)
meanings of the phoneme "Bene" offered by several posters also very
neatly explain that part of the phrase. Hey, Clinton can build a
bridge to the 21st Century. Maybe the B.G. can build a bridge to the
35th!

Tony

RTFM

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Nov 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/23/96

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>>I don't know what "B'nai" means in that name -- does anybody
>>know?

>I think "Bene" comes from "ben" which (I think) is Arab and

>means "descendant of". So e.g. Ali Ben Halef means that Halef
>was Ali's father. Any Arabs here ?

B'nai B'rith means "sons of the covenant" in Hebrew. But, "Bene
Gesserit" happens to be Latin for "He (or she) has done well."
The name, though, is probably a reference to the Jesuits (who, in
the past, were just as Machiavellian).

--
"Mod sceal the maere; heorte the cenre; hicge the heardra, swa
ure maegen lytlath."

Tony

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Nov 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/24/96

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In <19961122....@gnarumen.demon.co.uk> jo...@gnarumen.demon.co.uk

(john fenton) writes:
>
>In message <01bbd787$f63d7440$5a2e44c6@hitch> "Hitch" wrote:
>
>> Dear Free:
>>
>> FYI, as I posted to Marco a few minutes ago, my translation of Bene
>> Gesserit was not literal or cavalier, in the sense one might think.
The
>> term bene gesserit is a term of law, and has been in use as such for
>> centuries. Sharon's suggestion is creative, but I believe that FH
intended
>> to use the term BG as it is meant - "of the good" or "for the good."

>

>No! I have never heard this combination of "Latin" words. Where is
>hitch getting this from?? First of all, "bene" does not mean "of the
>good". The Latin word "bene" translates to the English adverb

>"well",as in "I am feeling well" or "She is well-read". The Latin

Hitch

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Nov 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/24/96

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Dear Counselor:

My, are your clients aware of your propensity to write briefs with
inadequate research? *Levissima Culpa*, my friend. In any event, he who
affirms must so prove, yes? (Affirmantis est probare?).

Since you appear, from your message, to be using Black's as your latinate
reference manual, off the top of my head, try this one: *Quamdiu se bene
gesserit.* If memory serves, you will find this in Black's. Roughly, it
means, "for so long as" (Quamdiu) "the recipient is well-behaved," more or
less, or "Acts for the good, or doesn't abuse the privilege." This legal
term, along with others incorporating the term "bene gesserit" came into
use after the Magna Carta. I did say, in my original post, that it had
been around for centuries, did I not?

As to substituting "good" for "well" in my sentence, I simply thought that
"for the well" or "of the well" seemed rather illiterate-sounding.

As to your assertions that "bene" is mis-translated as good, instead of
well, I put to you the following: You state that the latin for "good" is
bonum or bona. I put to you that bonum, bona or bono can also mean use or
benefit - as in Cui Bono, does it not? Moreoever, you have obviously,
since you state you have never seen the word "Gesserit" anywhere, not
considered its root, which is Gestum, Gestio, Gestu (not to forget Gerendo
- the actual root term). All of which, in one tense or another,
essentially stand for behavior, or deed, or act.

Now, I did not think, in addressing a ng of Dune Cycle readers, that I
needed to include the term "Act" as in "act or deed for the good," as it
seemed implicit. However, since we are attempting to be picky, for those
of you that didn't get that, there it is.

"Bene" and "bono" are frequently interchanged when the subject is an act;
again, referring to your dreaded Black's, see "De bono gestu," (for good
behavior) and "De se bene gerendo" (for behaving himself well; for his good
behavior). Since "bonum" could be translated in several ways, "bene" was
frequently used when describing behavior that was to be interpreted as
"good" as opposed to "evil," instead of possible mis-interpretation that
someone was acting for his own *interests* or *benefit.*

If you persist, I shall, _at my own convenience_, go through the trouble of
actually finding Black's citations for you to further support the
translation, even though AT LEAST 100 people before me have posted this
same translation. However, this tedium doesn't actually interest me. I
posted this simply as a courtesy to persons whom appeared to be new to this
ng. Of course, I am loathe to debate this with you further, since you are
so clearly not only Jesuit-trained but fluent in Latin; which undoubtedly
explains why you did not recognize the word "gesserit," or even its roots.

Oh, and BTW, at some point in time in the past, someone (Aristophanes,
perhaps?) posted a message that FH had stated in an interview that this was
the translation for BG. Other than that, I'm sure that your Semitic
meanings are quite correct.

Hitch

Tony <ols...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article

<5783b6$d...@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>...

Hitch

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Nov 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/24/96

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Hi, Gang!

Please see my response to this under the original thread.

Hitch

Tony <ols...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article

<577c4n$k...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>...

> In <01bbd8fe$9fb8c5c0$2eaa20cc@#chacoy> "Andrew"
> <sama...@geocities.com> writes:
> >
> >Perhaps FH was aware of all these different possibilites, and wanted
> these
> >multiple meanings incorporated into the name "Bene Gesserit".
> Personally, I
> >believe the Latin translation offered previously is the best *single*
> >translation.
> >
> >- Andrew.
>
>

Sharon Gefen

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Nov 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/24/96

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Hello there !!!

And still the debate goes on....

On 21 Nov 1996, Hitch wrote:

>
[snip]

> > * "Kitab al Ibr" - could be "the book of the hebrew" (the Bible ?!) -
> > raises the question: did the Fremen originate in some way from the jews ?
> > i think there might be a connection - considering the jewish cult that
> > appears in one of the last books - (was it "chapterhouse" ?) one might
> > think that Herbert had this in mind. anyway, the Islam also originates
> > from Judaism so that might be it.
>
> I don't see any connection between the Fremen and the Jews on Gammu in
> Chapterhouse; most of the Fremen words - i.e., "Jihad" are arabic or
> islamic in nature, as are many of their customs. If memory serves, the
> Fremen were wandering Zensunni who sought sanctuary on Arrakis. (Not Sufi,
> i.e., mystic islamics, as are the Tleilaxu). Ergo, they are a mix of early
> earth customs rolled into one, with both buddhist and islamic overtones
> (interesting mix!), which seems somewhat natural considering their physical
> environment.

- All I tried to ask here was whether anyone else could see any kind of
connection since one can find the facts that a name like "kitab al ibr"
[which I strongly believe comes from the word "hebrew" (or in hebrew
"ivri")] and the name of the BG book - "The book of Azhar" [which i
believe comes from "the book of Zohar" (Sefer Hazohar) or as you might
have heard of it "the Kaballah" - a book which it is claimed to be the
most mystical and secret of all the books about the Bible which includes
all sorts of curses, numerology tricks and other pagan stuff] - anyway,
what I'm trying to say here is that Jewish influences DO exist here too!
(just in case anyone wonders, I am NOT some religious freak !!)

Also bear in mind that FH wrote much of the original Dune in
> response to the oil crisis and OPEC. Many on this ng were not even born
> yet, but I stood in hour-long gas lines while it was on-going. FH had
> arabic nations "on the brain," so to speak, when he created the Spice as an
> analogy for oil.

- o.k, shoot me, I'm only 22 years old and haven't had the "pleasures"
you've "enjoyed" in your youth... ;-)

> > * the name "Alia" might come from the word "Aliya" which means
> > "rising/going up" - Alia as some superior being ?
>
> Sigh....Alia = Latin for "Other." This is logical; bear in mind that in
> the streets they call Alia the "Coan-Teen," which is an old roman (latin)
> term for "Whore."
>

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Nov 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/25/96

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John Matthew Armstrong <jma...@tamaix.tamu.edu> wrote in article
<57bgv7$f...@news.tamu.edu>...

This is starting to wander off topic, but...

Remember the Romans were conquerors. As such, war would be a tool to
increase lands and wealth. Increasing lands and wealth would strengthen the
empire, and thus could be seen as a "birth" of a better empire/era.

Our modern conceptions can really cloud our judgements when it comes to our
perceptions of foreign/antique cultures/ideas. Our modern countries go to
war for petty political reasons. It seems the main goal of war today (from
the aggressor's point of view) is to destroy the enem, and war is seen as a
bad thing. (Note: I am not endorsing, nor condoning war. I am simply
offering a possible explanation as to why Latin would use the same word for
bear/birth/war.)

- Andrew.

Sharon Gefen

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Nov 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/26/96

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Hi, Hitch!
(grandpa ?!)

On 25 Nov 1996, Hitch wrote:

[snip]

> Nor have I seen anything in your posts that indicate you are a "religious

> freak," nor would it phase me in the slightest if you were or are...as long
> as the brain cells work, the beliefs of the individual wielding them are
> irrelevant. (Well, as long as those beliefs don't get in the way of logic,
> that is...let's not forget the famous quote "There is no amount of facts
> that can get in the way of entrenched belief," or something to that
> effect.)

What I meant about my not being a "religious freak" was that I was afraid
of being categorized in some way according to the "common" (and rather
unfortunate) Israeli stereotypes which usually consist of either
ultra-religious-orthodox Jews or Arab-bashing soldiers - since the latter
is rather out of context here (my army days did not include Arab bashing
in any way...), and I DID talk a lot about religious issues (something i
usually tend to avoid considering the fact that I hardly know as much as I
would like to know), I guess I tried to avoid this stereotyping - most of
us Israelis are just your regular bunch of nice peace-loving people (some
of which were just plain stupid during our previous elections, but all
this is probably an issue for soc.culture.Israel or soc.culture.jewish.
and not alt.fan.dune).

p.s.
thanks for your belief in the activity of my personal brain cells, I
needed that (I sometimes tend to wonder whether they even exist...duh...)

Sharon

John Santry

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Nov 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/26/96

to

In article <01bbdade$295a4fc0$34aa20cc@#chacoy>,

Playing with language isn't completely off-topic for a Frank Herbert related
newsgroup, but we're getting there!

"Gerere", the Latin word for wear, wage (war), and carry, has nothing to do
with birth; that's "nasci". This confusion is the result of a translation
problem, because English doesn't have a word that literally descibes
childbirth; it just has "bear", along with the related words "born" and
"birth".

The literal meaning of "gerere" is to carry on one's person (not *in* one's
womb!), or to wear. It also means to bear (a burden), figuratively, that is,
to take on a responsibility, to undertake, or to administer. The Latin idiom
"bellum gerere" means to administrate a war; in English, the idiom is "wage
war".

FYI, my source for the meaning of the word "gerere" is the Chambers-Murray
Latin-English Dictionary; to paraphrase our friend Hitch, I ain't just making
this stuff up.

Hitch

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Nov 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/27/96

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Dear John:

Beats me. :)

Hitch

john fenton <jo...@gnarumen.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<19961125....@gnarumen.demon.co.uk>...
> Following the amazing, but welcome, flood of linguistic erudition
> from 'hitch' and others, does anyone have any good idea what Chakobsa
> is (or will be)?

Hitch

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Nov 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/27/96

to

Dear Andrew:

Not to mention the fact that it's been well over 2,000 years since the
"birth" (groan) of the Roman Empire; we assume that we understand Latin
well, but really don't (in terms of how it was actually spoken and used AT
THE TIME); to assume that the usage didn't change over the thousand years
of the Empire ALONE would be silly. Moreover, slang existed then as well
as now. So, the fact that birth/war/etc., can be synonymous isn't a
stretch; we just don't get it. John says his dictionary states it can be
carry, wear, bear or give birth to; mine adds "act" to the list. Who
knows? The very language that we are "scribbling" in right now will be
very different, methinks, in 2,000 years; anyone around here ever struggle
through Chaucer in mid-english? Yikes! And that was not even 600 years
ago!

Hitch

Andrew <sama...@geocities.com> wrote in article
<01bbdade$295a4fc0$34aa20cc@#chacoy>...

Hitch

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Nov 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/27/96

to

Dear John:

Interspersed one short comment below; I've posted my response to Tony
elsewhere, and we've made pax.

Hitch

John Matthew Armstrong <jma...@tamaix.tamu.edu> wrote in article
<57bgv7$f...@news.tamu.edu>...

> In <19961122....@gnarumen.demon.co.uk> jo...@gnarumen.demon.co.uk
> (john fenton) writes:

> ><Snip Tony's original portion>

>
> Calm down. As a lawyer you would probably never run into the word
gesserit.
> Even if you were negotiating a peace to a war (Latin "bellum gerere"
means
> "to wage war"). It would be hard to find because the tense is future
perfect.
> To expect to learn such a word in legal education is rediculous. And
just
> because you heaven't heard of a word in a language (which you do not
speak) you
> declare that is doesn't exist?
>
> I think the phrase that Hitch is looking for is "pro bono publico" which
means
> "for the good of the public." That's not to say bene gesserit is not
> Latin. In fact it is. It means "(He/She/It) will have carried (it)
well."

Dear John:

Please see my last post on the topic; I was not seeking "pro bono publico,"
I was directly addressing bene gesserit - as in "Quamdiu se bene gesserit."
(a legal term that Tony or anyone else could look up; I also explained a
very reader's digest condensed version of some of the history behind the
term, both in roman times and in use after the Magna Carta). Regardless,
you have re-affirmed what I said - thank you.

> The verb is gero, gerere, gessi, gestum for those who know what that
means.
> My dictionary says it can mean carry, bear, give birth to (humans), and
wear.
> I think translating it as "(The Order) will have given birth (to
humanity)
> well" is not a stretch at all. This seems to be the goal of the BG.
Don't
> ask me why the Romans used this word to mean "wage war." It seems kind
of
> wierd, but maybe it made sense to them to use the same word for give
birth
> and wage war.
>
> The Latin
> translation is also supported by RM Gaius Helen Mohiam says, "We carry a
> heavy burden." Incidentally that would be "gerunt" in Latin.
>

> John Armstrong
> jma...@tam2000.tamu.edu
>
>

Tony

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Nov 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM11/28/96

to

In <01bbdc39$05eec000$4d2e44c6@hitch> "Hitch" <hi...@primenet.com>
writes:

>
>Dear John:
>
>Interspersed one short comment below; I've posted my response to Tony
>elsewhere, and we've made pax.
>
>Hitch

Hi hitch...

Thanx for your responses. Yes, my practice is civil. As for Chakobsa
(see other article entitled "Chakobsa...") at first blush it seemed to
be an American Indian-sounding name. There is a reference to it in
the Dune glossary in back of the first book. In many places FH refers
to it as the "Atreides hunting language" or "Atreides battle language"
if I'm not mistaken. The word "sietch" is supposedly Chakobsa. Most
of the words, however, look vaguely Arabic, while others look like no
existing language I can recognize.

Tony

John Matthew Armstrong

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Dec 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/3/96

to

In article <57fe7r$2...@decaxp.harvard.edu>,

John Santry <san...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>"Gerere", the Latin word for wear, wage (war), and carry, has nothing to do
>with birth; that's "nasci". This confusion is the result of a translation
>problem, because English doesn't have a word that literally descibes
>childbirth; it just has "bear", along with the related words "born" and
>"birth".

My dictionary (Cassell's Latin Dictionary (you know, the orange one)) says:
gero gerere gessi gestum, to carry, bear.
Lit., (1) to carry about: hastam, Verg.; esp. to wear: vestem, Ov.
(2) to carry athing somewhere: saxa in muros, Liv.
(3) to bear, give birth to; of human beings: Plin.; of the earth,
plants, etc.: platani malos gessere, Verg.; violam terra, Ov.

Your dictionary might not have (3), but this seems to be a valid literal
translation. In my dictionary nascor is the passive "to be born." I couldn't
find an active form of the verb, but I'm in kind of a hurry.

John Armstrong
jma...@unix.tamu.edu

John Santry

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Dec 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/3/96

to

In article <57vs5i$f...@news.tamu.edu>,

jma...@tamaix.tamu.edu (John Matthew Armstrong) wrote:
>In article <57fe7r$2...@decaxp.harvard.edu>,
>John Santry <san...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>"Gerere", the Latin word for wear, wage (war), and carry, has nothing to do
>>with birth; that's "nasci". This confusion is the result of a translation
>>problem, because English doesn't have a word that literally descibes
>>childbirth; it just has "bear", along with the related words "born" and
>>"birth".
>
>My dictionary (Cassell's Latin Dictionary (you know, the orange one)) says:
>gero gerere gessi gestum, to carry, bear.
> Lit., (1) to carry about: hastam, Verg.; esp. to wear: vestem, Ov.
> (2) to carry athing somewhere: saxa in muros, Liv.
> (3) to bear, give birth to; of human beings: Plin.; of the earth,
> plants, etc.: platani malos gessere, Verg.; violam terra, Ov.
>
>Your dictionary might not have (3), but this seems to be a valid literal
>translation.

No, it's there; I missed it (sorry! I must have been in a hurry myself!). It
can mean, literally, to carry in oneself, according to my dictionary (as well
as yours!).

> In my dictionary nascor is the passive "to be born." I couldn't
>find an active form of the verb, but I'm in kind of a hurry.

It's one of those tricky verbs with no active form. Intead, there is
"gignere", "beget, bring forth, produce"; I don't know why I didn't use that
instead of "nasci".

>John Armstrong
>jma...@unix.tamu.edu
>
>

I promise not to say anything more on the subject!

Hitch

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Dec 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/4/96

to

Dear John:

Go, guy!!!!! :) Thank you for the clarification; I posted to J. M.
Armstrong that indeed, I was NOT thinking of pro bono publico, but "se bene
gesserit," indeed. Glad am I that you have cleared up the "birth" issue,
which was making me (only slightly) insane. :)

Hitch

John Santry <san...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in article
<57fe7r$2...@decaxp.harvard.edu>...

> In article <01bbdade$295a4fc0$34aa20cc@#chacoy>,
> "Andrew" <sama...@geocities.com> wrote:

> >John Matthew Armstrong <jma...@tamaix.tamu.edu> wrote in article
> ><57bgv7$f...@news.tamu.edu>...

> >> Calm down. As a lawyer you would probably never run into the word
> >gesserit.
> >> Even if you were negotiating a peace to a war (Latin "bellum gerere"
> >means
> >> "to wage war"). It would be hard to find because the tense is future
> >perfect.
> >> To expect to learn such a word in legal education is rediculous. And
> >just
> >> because you heaven't heard of a word in a language (which you do not
> >speak) you
> >> declare that is doesn't exist?
> >>
> >> I think the phrase that Hitch is looking for is "pro bono publico"
which
> >means
> >> "for the good of the public." That's not to say bene gesserit is not
> >> Latin. In fact it is. It means "(He/She/It) will have carried (it)
> >well."

> >> The verb is gero, gerere, gessi, gestum for those who know what that
> >means.
> >> My dictionary says it can mean carry, bear, give birth to (humans),
and
> >wear.
> >> I think translating it as "(The Order) will have given birth (to
> >humanity)
> >> well" is not a stretch at all. This seems to be the goal of the BG.
> >Don't
> >> ask me why the Romans used this word to mean "wage war." It seems
kind
> >of
> >> wierd, but maybe it made sense to them to use the same word for give
> >birth
> >> and wage war.
> >>
> >> The Latin
> >> translation is also supported by RM Gaius Helen Mohiam says, "We carry
a
> >> heavy burden." Incidentally that would be "gerunt" in Latin.
> >

> >This is starting to wander off topic, but...
> >
> >Remember the Romans were conquerors. As such, war would be a tool to
> >increase lands and wealth. Increasing lands and wealth would strengthen
the
> >empire, and thus could be seen as a "birth" of a better empire/era.
> >
> >Our modern conceptions can really cloud our judgements when it comes to
our
> >perceptions of foreign/antique cultures/ideas. Our modern countries go
to
> >war for petty political reasons. It seems the main goal of war today
(from
> >the aggressor's point of view) is to destroy the enem, and war is seen
as a
> >bad thing. (Note: I am not endorsing, nor condoning war. I am simply

> >offering a possible explanation as to why Latin would use the same word
for

> >bear/birth/war.)
> >
> >- Andrew.
>
> Playing with language isn't completely off-topic for a Frank Herbert
related
> newsgroup, but we're getting there!
>

> "Gerere", the Latin word for wear, wage (war), and carry, has nothing to
do
> with birth; that's "nasci". This confusion is the result of a
translation
> problem, because English doesn't have a word that literally descibes
> childbirth; it just has "bear", along with the related words "born" and
> "birth".
>