Relationship Tleixu and Gesserit???
Mike
Tleixu(sp?) and the Bene Gesserit. Is the Bene prefix just a coincidence?
Just curious.
--Mike
Mike
<Pine.A32.3.91.960209...@meibm16.cen.uiuc.edu>, arcoleo
david samael <arc...@meibm16.cen.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> > en Bene Tleilaxu it is the same. At least for a part. Bene means something
> > like "good" or "the right way".
>
> It is possible they both originated from the same culture, or both
> largely influenced y the same culture in their beginings.
That is what I was thinking. I know the Tleilaxu are strongly grounded in
their faith, and maybe and early version of the Missionaria had something
to do with it, and therefore the similarities in their name.
--Mike
John Fenton
> A lot of terms in the books come froms Latin. I think with Bene Gesserit
> en Bene Tleilaxu it is the same. At least for a part. Bene means something
> like "good" or "the right way". Gesserit means something like he/she leads,
> this making Bene Gesserit probably "She leads the right way",
> something what I consider very likely to be one of the BG motto's. I am not
> sure about the "time", it could also mean something like "she shall lead
> the right way". It has been a long time since I had Latin, so maybe
> someone else can help us out here.
I think that, in this case, the term comes from a Hamito-Semitic language
(eg Phoenician, Aramaic, Arabic, Hebrew) and is from the same root as
'Ibn' (Arabic) or 'ben' (Hebrew cf Ben Hur, Ben Gurion) which means
something like 'son of' (I think). 'Bene' would presumably mean 'of the
family/tribe/clan etc'. Perhaps some Jewish or Arabic-speaking readers
would enlighten us?
> I don't know the meaning of Tleilaxu in Latin, I don't even know if there
> is any.
I have always assumed 'Tleilaxu' was related to 'axolotl' which is,
presumably, from a central american language - Aztec? (An axolotl
is a giant, newt or salamander from Mexico which , very strangely, becomes
sexually mature while still in its 'tadpole' form. (Or, if you like, it
retains larval characteristics in the adult form). They can be induced to
develop into a form like a normal adult salamander by an injection of
hormone - I don't know if this occurs naturally.)
> One word about Miles Teg, Miles means (foot) soldier in Latin...
I feel sure that this is not coincidence :-)
--
John Fenton
=======================
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arcoleo david samael
> like "good" or "the right way".
It is possible they both originated from the same culture, or both
largely influenced y the same culture in their beginings.
> One word about Miles Teg, Miles means (foot)soldier in Latin, also an
> appropriate name, isn't it?
hehehe. Soldier, yes. Although Teg is of slightly higher rank :)
-Dave
arc...@students.uiuc.edu
Pim Beers
>work together, for instance when the Bene Theilaxu created the
>Idaho Duncan gholas for the Bene Gesserit, but that's as far as it
>goes. I believe Bene has some sort of meaning... I'm pretty sure it's
>defined somewhere in those six books. :)
>
>-Dave
> arc...@students.uiuc.edu
A lot of terms in the books come froms Latin. I think with Bene Gesserit
this making Bene Gesserit probably "She leads the right way",
something what I consider very likely to be one of the BG motto's. I am not
sure about the "time", it could also mean something like "she shall lead
the right way". It has been a long time since I had Latin, so maybe
someone else can help us out here.
is any.
appropriate name, isn't it?
Pim
Markus Irby
>> I was wondering if anyone knew of the actual relationship between the Bene
>> Tleixu(sp?) and the Bene Gesserit. Is the Bene prefix just a coincidence?
>> Just curious.
>
>The Bene Theilaxu and the Bene Gesserit are not allies. At times they
>work together, for instance when the Bene Theilaxu created the
>Idaho Duncan gholas for the Bene Gesserit, but that's as far as it
>goes. I believe Bene has some sort of meaning... I'm pretty sure it's
>defined somewhere in those six books. :)
>-Dave
> arc...@students.uiuc.edu
I believe "bene" comes from latin for good....
arcoleo david samael
> >defined somewhere in those six books. :)
>
Yes, and is close to 'bien' which is spanish. I was thinking of what the
B.T. and B.G. said the word meant.
-Dave
Tarek Z. El Mohamad
> (eg Phoenician, Aramaic, Arabic, Hebrew) and is from the same root as
> 'Ibn' (Arabic) or 'ben' (Hebrew cf Ben Hur, Ben Gurion) which means
> something like 'son of' (I think). 'Bene' would presumably mean 'of the
> family/tribe/clan etc'. Perhaps some Jewish or Arabic-speaking readers
> would enlighten us?
> --
> John Fenton
> =======================
> This message sent via Acorn RiscPC 600
> Acorn ::: RISC based desktop computers since 1987
Your right about the Arabic part. A great deal of the dune vocab has an identical or very
similar meaning in Arabic. I'm presently compiling a glossary of the words used in Dune that
have meaning in Arabic, and will post it when I'm done. 'Ibn' or 'ibin' means 'son of' when used
alone in Arabic (i.e.: Ibn <Name>). 'Bin', or 'Ben' is used in Arabic when the word comes
between 2 names, like the person's name, 'bin', and then the father's name. Its the same word,
only the 'i' becomes silent when between two names. In Arabic, I could be called Tarek bin Ziad,
as my name is Tarek and my father's name is Ziad. Your correct in your interpretation of 'Bene'.
The word does mean of the family/clan or 'decendents of'. The descendants of Ishmail are called
'bene Ismail', and so on.
--
_____________________________
Tarek Z. El Mohamad
University of Pittsburgh
tz...@pop.pitt.edu
http://www.pitt.edu/~tzest/
John Fenton
> A great deal of the dune vocab has an identical or very similar meaning
> in Arabic. I'm presently compiling a glossary of the words used in Dune
> that have meaning in Arabic, and will post it when I'm done.
That sounds very interesting and I'll look forward to it.
> Your correct in your interpretation of 'Bene'. The word does mean of
> the family/clan or 'decendents of'.
I've just had a squint at Encyclopaedia Britannica (EB). It mentions the
Samaritans (the same as in the New Testament parable). Apparently there are
still about 500 left. They might loosely be described as a divergent Jewish
group who use Hebrew in ceremony but speak Arabic (nowadays). They consider
themselves to be the descendants of Jacob (or Israel) and call themselves,
amongst other things 'Bene-Yisra'el' (which EB translates as 'The Children
of Israel')
The descendants of Ishmail are called
> 'bene Ismail', and so on.
Ishmail being the progenitor of the Arabs?
--
John Fenton
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tom or tammie jones
>I was wondering if anyone knew of the actual relationship between the Bene
>Tleixu(sp?) and the Bene Gesserit. Is the Bene prefix just a coincidence?
>Just curious.
>--Mike
The correlations between the two , have to do with the fact that
they were born of the schools of thought that sprung from the
after-math of the Butlerian Jihad .This was due to the destruction of
computers and computer-like devices .The Bene Gesserit is a school of
politics and the Bene Tleixu is a school of genetic manipulation.
Klaatu Barada Nickto
>>> Tleixu(sp?) and the Bene Gesserit. Is the Bene prefix just a coincidence?
>>> Just curious.
>>
>
>
Jesuit. making Bene Gesserit the inheritors of the Jesuit school of
religious politics in the Orange Catholic universe. Although Tleixu
were interested in achieving the path via genetic manipulations,
the Gesserit were trying to prove their approach of selective breeding
as the correct means to the end. I wonder what the guild was trying to
prove? Maybe they believed to forsake the human form totally, or
perhaps they only cared for commerce.
Adam J. Flisser
Tarek Z. El Mohamad <tz...@pop.pitt.edu> wrote:
>have meaning in Arabic, and will post it when I'm done. 'Ibn' or 'ibin' means 'son of' when used
>alone in Arabic (i.e.: Ibn <Name>). 'Bin', or 'Ben' is used in Arabic when the word comes
>between 2 names, like the person's name, 'bin', and then the father's name. Its the same word,
>only the 'i' becomes silent when between two names. In Arabic, I could be called Tarek bin Ziad,
> The word does mean of the family/clan or 'decendents of'. The descendants of Ishmail are called
>_____________________________
>Tarek Z. El Mohamad
>University of Pittsburgh
>tz...@pop.pitt.edu
>http://www.pitt.edu/~tzest/
Righto. In Hebrew, as well. "Ben" means son, and "B'nai" is the plural form,
sons. I always pronounced "Bene" the same way as "B'nai" and read it in that
same sense. If you've heard of the Jewish charity "B'nai Brith," for example,
it stands for "Sons of the Covenant."
Adam
as3
affairs and they want to safeguard their spice.
-as3
as3
-as3
Jerzy Jarmasz
the
"Dirty Tleilaxu", who are alternately referred to as the Bene Tleilax. If you
refer to some of the previous discussions, the term "Bene" means
"sons/descendents of" - so you could say that "Bene Tleilax" are the people of
Tleilax, and Tleilaxu is the name of those people.
BTW, are the Tleilax supposed to be human or merely humanoid?
as3
close are the Guild, and they have been mutated by Melang for over 4000
years. Hope this helps.
-as3
Sean M. Burke
Adam J. Flisser <fli...@mcard27.med.nyu.edu> quoted:
>>as my name is Tarek and my father's name is Ziad. Your correct in your interpretation of 'Bene'.
>> The word does mean of the family/clan or 'decendents of'. The descendants of Ishmail are called
>>'bene Ismail', and so on.
Ah, so Bene Tleilaxu is /that/ Bene, and not the same Bene as in Bene
Gesserit (=Latin "Well It-will-have-been-done").
Interesting semi-pun on Herbert's part.
--
| Sean M. Burke mailto:sbu...@nwu.edu Web: http://www.ling.nwu.edu/~sburke/
| Northwestern University, Department of Linguistics
Dan Simonson
I think they were called the "Bene Tleilax" for the same reasons the
Bene Gesserit were called the Bene Gesserit( excuse the redundancy:)).
The "Dune Encyclopedia" says that the Sisterhood thought of them as
rivals. They were an organization with their own objectives; almost the
opposite of the Bene Gesserit.
BTW- Tleilax is only one planet.
arcoleo david samael
> close are the Guild, and they have been mutated by Melang for over 4000
> years. Hope this helps.
Don't forget the Bene Theilaxu axlotl tanks. They are also mutated
humans. And don't forget the God-Emperor. What about that one pilot
guy, he was in one of the last two books, I can't remember his name, but
I believe he was in some sort of robotic body..
-Dave
DS
There are no non-humans.
there are many mutated races but they are all humans.
And there can't be robot anywhere (remember the Jiihad)
And Tleilax creates clones, no robots.
:o)
arcoleo david samael
> And Tleilax creates clones, no robots.
I'm not talking about the facedancers. Remember, during the time of Teg
Miles there were a few people who had entirely artificial bodies. I
can't remember the name of the pilot.
-Dave
Christopher Paul Rider
>NO no no
>There are no non-humans.
>there are many mutated races but they are all humans.
>And there can't be robot anywhere (remember the Jiihad)
>And Tleilax creates clones, no robots.
> :o)
The one pilot was a cyborg. I think this was the last book. The
pilot went on a suicide mission. Teg chose the pilot himself (that
is, Teg the ghola).
Maybe I am mistaken. The pilot wasn't a ghola, with mechanical parts
was he? I guess that would qualify for a cyborg. Also, people form
the Scattering had robots. The Honored Matres had some working in
their "hotel" in the last book.
amas...@ic3.ithaca.edu
On 19 Feb 1996, DS wrote:
> NO no no
>
> There are no non-humans.
> there are many mutated races but they are all humans.
>
> And there can't be robot anywhere (remember the Jiihad)
> And Tleilax creates clones, no robots.
>
> :o)
>
>
>
Au Contraire... Despite the Jihad robots sometimes made a cameo
apearance in the universe. Remember the cyborg pilot in chapterhouse? His
name was Clairby i believe...
Aaron
arcoleo david samael
> apearance in the universe. Remember the cyborg pilot in chapterhouse? His
> name was Clairby i believe...
waiting for his new body or something. I think he was going to be
reconstructed as a ghola...and that he was originally a person. I'm not
sure... either way, he was coming back as something better.
-Dave
arc...@uiuc.edu
Kennet Carroll
> Au Contraire... Despite the Jihad robots sometimes made a cameo
>apearance in the universe. Remember the cyborg pilot in chapterhouse? His
>name was Clairby i believe...
>
> Aaron
>
Sorry Aaron, but a cyborg is NOT a robot. Cyborgs are humans with
artificial bodies; they have human brains. Herbert mentioned several
times in the series that it was forbidden to build a machine that
thinks like a man (due to the Butlerian Jihad). All the characters in
the series were human or mutated-humans. They had no robots or
computers. They used Mentats instead.
Ken
Molly Moloney
>And Tleilax creates clones, no robots.
>
Leto II had constantly violated it in GEoD, and everyone
else started following suit in Heretics and Chapterhouse.
Though there were no robots, at least one man was enabled
to live through becoming a cyborg.
Molly
John Holder
> In the Dune Universe, there are NO non-humans. The only ones that come
> close are the Guild, and they have been mutated by Melang for over 4000
> years. Hope this helps.
I think the Bene Gessert would disagree - there are few humans and many animals.
"Face your fear!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Holder (jho...@nmsu.edu) "Verbing weirds language." - Calvin
Homepage: http://speedracer.nmsu.edu/~jholder
Topics: Homebrewing | Raytracing | Interactive Fiction | Fractals
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Knight Walker
: NO no no
: There are no non-humans.
: there are many mutated races but they are all humans.
True enough, although with the help of the Tleilax, they're getting close.
: And there can't be robot anywhere (remember the Jiihad)
: And Tleilax creates clones, no robots.
Well, the Butlerian Jihad sort of lost power through the reign of Leto
II. By _Chapter_House_Dune_ the Guild was dying, being replaced by
machines that would navigate the huge liners. And there were always
interesting gadgets on IX.
-Knight Walker
Hupparoo
(as a cyborg) that he would be rewarded by getting to be a ghola
Tarek Z. El Mohamad
>
> Are Futars human?
>
> -Rodi
Futars were supposed to be some kind of cross between humans, and an
animal from the cat family (predatory).
Aleksander Arnon
: In article <4fo9qb$8...@cmcl2.nyu.edu>,
Mr Flisser seems to be right, I think. 'Bene', in semitic languages means
'sons of', or 'descendants of'. 'Gesserit' seems to be derived from 'Gesher',
which means in Hebrew (and Arabic, maybe?) bridge.
This makes sense, as the Bene Gesserit create bridges across
genetic lines, thereby advancing and maturing the Human race.
I guess Tleilax was some organization or Great Man who founded the
Bene Tleilaxu. Any other ideas are welcome.
Yours truly,
Alex Arnon
aar...@bimacs.cs.biu.ac.il
Brian A. Sebby
: I guess Tleilax was some organization or Great Man who founded the
: Bene Tleilaxu. Any other ideas are welcome.
I may be too influenced by the naming conventions of people in Star Trek :),
but I always assumed that the Bene Tleilax (Tleilaxu) were people from the
planet of Tleilax.
: Yours truly,
: Alex Arnon
: aar...@bimacs.cs.biu.ac.il
--
Brian Sebby, da...@imsa.edu, da...@prairienet.org
Tarek Z. El Mohamad
> 'sons of', or 'descendants of'. 'Gesserit' seems to be derived from 'Gesher',
> which means in Hebrew (and Arabic, maybe?) bridge.
> Yours truly,
> Alex Arnon
> aar...@bimacs.cs.biu.ac.il
That makes sense. I never considered the fact that 'Gesserit' also was
derived from Arabic and Hebrew. It never occured to me before, but
actually, the Arabic word for bridge IS 'Gessir' (pronounced with a J).
I guess 'Bene Gesserit' has more of a meaning than we originally
thought.
robert donoghue
: Mr Flisser seems to be right, I think. 'Bene', in semitic languages means
: 'sons of', or 'descendants of'. 'Gesserit' seems to be derived from 'Gesher',
: which means in Hebrew (and Arabic, maybe?) bridge.
Which does make sense, since the BG are THE missionary group.
Sean M. Burke
Aleksander Arnon <aar...@sunrise.cs.biu.ac.il> wrote:
>: Ah, so Bene Tleilaxu is /that/ Bene, and not the same Bene as in Bene
>: Gesserit (=Latin "Well It-will-have-been-done").
>'sons of', or 'descendants of'. 'Gesserit' seems to be derived from 'Gesher',
>which means in Hebrew (and Arabic, maybe?) bridge.
> This makes sense, as the Bene Gesserit create bridges across
>genetic lines, thereby advancing and maturing the Human race.
And it's just by chance that "Bene Gesserit", which you'd derive from
Semitic, is a perfectly well-formed sentence in Latin?
The chances of that being coincidental are, well, negligible.
--
| Sean M. Burke sbu...@nwu.edu http://www.ling.nwu.edu/~sburke/
muad'dib
On Sat, 16 Mar 1996, Tarek Z. El Mohamad wrote:
> > Mr Flisser seems to be right, I think. 'Bene', in semitic languages means
> > 'sons of', or 'descendants of'. 'Gesserit' seems to be derived from 'Gesher',
> > which means in Hebrew (and Arabic, maybe?) bridge.
>
> > Yours truly,
> > Alex Arnon
> > aar...@bimacs.cs.biu.ac.il
>
> That makes sense. I never considered the fact that 'Gesserit' also was
> derived from Arabic and Hebrew. It never occured to me before, but
> actually, the Arabic word for bridge IS 'Gessir' (pronounced with a J).
> I guess 'Bene Gesserit' has more of a meaning than we originally
> thought.
> --
> _____________________________
> Tarek Z. El Mohamad
>
I myself have come up with an alternative etymology of the term "Bene
Gesserit". "Bene" in latin means "well", while "Gesserit" is the
indicative future perfect third person singular (whew!) of the verb
"gerere" which means to conduct (as in warfare) or to wear (as in
clothing). So from my hypothesis "Bene Gesserit" means he/she/it
will have conducted (the war) well. An expression of hope concerning
future triumph perhaps....
As a fairly pedantic aside, I should note that "gesserit" is also the
subjunctive perfect third person singular of "gerere" as well. As to what
that could possibly mean, I'm not going speculate, never having been to
good with subjunctives.
Your Friend,
The philogist...
Chris Bukosky
(Brian A. Sebby) wrote:
> Sean M. Burke (sbu...@babel.ling.nwu.edu) wrote:
> : In article <4i9i44$g...@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>,
> : Aleksander Arnon <aar...@sunrise.cs.biu.ac.il> wrote:
> : >: Ah, so Bene Tleilaxu is /that/ Bene, and not the same Bene as in Bene
> : >: Gesserit (=Latin "Well It-will-have-been-done").
> : >Mr Flisser seems to be right, I think. 'Bene', in semitic languages means
> : >'sons of', or 'descendants of'. 'Gesserit' seems to be derived from
'Gesher',
> : >which means in Hebrew (and Arabic, maybe?) bridge.
> : > This makes sense, as the Bene Gesserit create bridges across
> : >genetic lines, thereby advancing and maturing the Human race.
>
> : And it's just by chance that "Bene Gesserit", which you'd derive from
> : Semitic, is a perfectly well-formed sentence in Latin?
>
> Perhaps Herbert picked that name on purpose, so that it could be open to
> interpretation and mean something different to each person reading the novels.
>
> I heard somewhere that Herbert did it to represent the Jesuits, but these
> different interpretations are all equally plausible.
>
> : | Sean M. Burke sbu...@nwu.edu http://www.ling.nwu.edu/~sburke/
>
> --
> Brian Sebby, da...@imsa.edu, da...@prairienet.org
I think that the Jesuit approach is much more plausible (even though the
Semitic connection is intriguing). The parallels in their social functions
definitely leans that way. Training for the Order of Jesus is
intellectually rigorous (an understatement) as well as emotionally
demanding. St. Ignatius was a big fan of St. Thomas Aquinas and so made
logical studies a big part of the Regula of the order. The Jesuits have
long been known as "God's own lawyers" and are famed for thier negotiating
and arbitration skills, much like the Bene Gesserit. And all that doesn't
diminish thier missionary zeal! Also, like the Bene Gesserit, the Jesuits
enjoy the aura of a secret society(?). (Did I hear someone say Templars?)
As an aside, there are a lot of cognates between the Indo-European and
Semitic toungues, dispite their disparate syntax. Herbert could have just
lucked out on this one.
em...@netvision.net.il
In Article<314b8...@eden.adam.com.au>, <rob...@adam.com.au> write:
> From: rob...@adam.com.au (robert donoghue)
> Subject: Re: Relationship Tleixu and Gesserit???
> Newsgroups: alt.fan.dune
> References: <mlr12-08029...@j300151363.resnet.cornell.edu> <19960209....@gnarumen.demon.co.uk> <311D0F...@pop.pitt.edu> <4fo9qb$8...@cmcl2.nyu.edu> <4g5egp$j...@news.acns.nwu.edu> <4i9i44$g...@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
> Lines: 9
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> Date: 17 Mar 96 03:29:20 GMT
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>
> Aleksander Arnon (aar...@sunrise.cs.biu.ac.il) wrote:
> : Mr Flisser seems to be right, I think. 'Bene', in semitic languages means
> : 'sons of', or 'descendants of'. 'Gesserit' seems to be derived from
'Gesher',
> : which means in Hebrew (and Arabic, maybe?) bridge.
> : This makes sense, as the Bene Gesserit create bridges across
> : genetic lines, thereby advancing and maturing the Human race.
> Which does make sense, since the BG are THE missionary group.
>
Your theory is very interesting and well based but bare in mind the Bene(y)
reffers to a male desendancy (sons of) and the sisterhood are (since Muad'Dibs
death and before his birth) a female entity. Although your revealation may
point at a male origin of the BG.
P.S. this is my first contribution to this group, hi
P.P.S Dash megalut Yisrael be Oxfordshire.
Vetch
read it as stemming from gessere, "to bear." In the third person future
subjunctive that would read, "He (or she) shall bear it well." Presumably,
a reference to the Bene Gesserit's original mission of creating the
Qwisatz Haderach. In Chapterhouse, Darwi Odrade speaks of the "grail" that
the sisterhood must survive to carry on, that of guiding the human race to
maturity. This also fits their name very nicely. . .
Adam J. Flisser
Well, we're having a very interesting, if nit-picking :) discussion of the
linguistic origin of the word "Bene" in Bene Gesserit and Bene Tlielax.
Several of us are pushing the Semitic perspective, which holds that "Bene" is
derived from the Hebrew/Arabic "Ben" meaning "son of," (Ibn as well, in Arabic
I think), and B'nai (which you could pronounce the same as Bene, depending),
meaning "sons of" or "descendants of." In Hebrew, as I have mentioned, the
organization "B'nai B'rith" could be translated as "Sons of the Covenant."
The phrase "B'nai Yisrael" means "Descendants of Israel," or "the people of
Israel," or "Jews."
We've also had a discussion (although some time ago, now) about the meaning of
the term "Kwizatz Haderach." I don't recall if we came up with a translation
of Kwizatz, but in Hebrew (I can't speak for Arabic), HaDerekh means "The Way."
I think we had decided that Kwisatz Haderach means "Guardian of the Way." Is
this actually a description of KH from the book? (I can't remember).
ANYWAY, the point is that if we already have a plausible semitic-language
explanation for the term "Kwisatz Haderach," why do we need to include a Latin
explanation to translate "Bene Gesserit" when the semitic version reads,
quite plausibly, "Descendants/People of the Bridge" (Gesher being bridge in
Hebrew). The BG were the group dedicated over generations to bridging the
gap between regular people and the KH, their whole reason for being.
(1) Using Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation being best, would argue that
the terms BG and KH are both derived from the same, ie semitic, origin.
(2) This is also consistent with the entire semitic motif in the Dune series.
Let's not overlook this obvious point. From Fedaykin = Fedayeen to Bedwine =
Bedouin and including the desert culture, a semitic theme definitely dominates
the Dune universe. The Latin references may be there, but not on the same
scale.
(3) While Bene Gesserit may also happen to translate well (?) from Latin as
"He shall bear it well," this doesn't mean it was intended.
(4) Neither side has really come up with a plausible explanation for what
"Bene Tlielaxu" is all about. The Latin side should therefore explain what is
meant by "(He or she) [Tlielaxes] well." For the Semites, I'm going to ring
in comfortably with the translation "People of the planet Tlielax."
:)
Looking forward to further discussion.
Also looking for a linguist who can tell me what, if any, semitic influences
there are on the Latin tongues, just out of curiousity.
Sincerely,
Adam Flisser
j2sp...@novice.uwaterloo.ca
> Sincerely,
> Adam Flisser
I agree completely with the interpretation of these terms in the
semitic manner. This not only keeps the definitions of the various
groups consistent, it seems in-keeping with other references
throughout the novels: The most obvious reference to Jewish culture
and influence is the presence of the Rabbi and his group of Jewish
settlers. Second, many actual Hebrew words can be found in the
novels. When Leto II comes back and enters the room with Ghanima at
his side he announces himself and his sister as Ari and Arieh, the
lion and lioness...these are the true translations of Ari and Arieh.
I will not waste space on listing other references, though there are
many, so I will end by saying that the definition given in the books
for the Kwisatz Haderach was "the shortening of the way" and with a
slight change Kwisatz ---> Ktzeirat the full name translates
properly. Well, enjoy the series and interpret it as you like, for
that is all any author could hope for.
J. Spinner
Karl Mac Mc Kinnon
>the term "Kwizatz Haderach." I don't recall if we came up with a translation
>of Kwizatz, but in Hebrew (I can't speak for Arabic), HaDerekh means "The Way."
>I think we had decided that Kwisatz Haderach means "Guardian of the Way." Is
>this actually a description of KH from the book? (I can't remember).
In the "offical" translation is Shortening. I'm not sure if you
mean this or if you have found the real translation.
>ANYWAY, the point is that if we already have a plausible semitic-language
>explanation for the term "Kwisatz Haderach," why do we need to include a Latin
>explanation to translate "Bene Gesserit" when the semitic version reads,
>quite plausibly, "Descendants/People of the Bridge" (Gesher being bridge in
>Hebrew). The BG were the group dedicated over generations to bridging the
>gap between regular people and the KH, their whole reason for being.
One might consider the Bridge to be a "bridge of souls," a.k.a.
ancestral memory. The Kwisatz Hadarach is the shortening of this bridge
because he can have access to both male and female lines, making his
memory infinately longer.
> Sincerely,
>
> Adam Flisser
>
>
CapSatan.
boo boo the magnificent
: We've also had a discussion (although some time ago, now) about the meaning of
: the term "Kwizatz Haderach." I don't recall if we came up with a translation
: of Kwizatz, but in Hebrew (I can't speak for Arabic), HaDerekh means "The Way."
: I think we had decided that Kwisatz Haderach means "Guardian of the Way." Is
: this actually a description of KH from the book? (I can't remember).
KW defined by gaius helen mohiam meant The Shortening of The Way, or
another word for shortening meaning the same thing.
: (4) Neither side has really come up with a plausible explanation for what
: "Bene Tlielaxu" is all about. The Latin side should therefore explain what is
: meant by "(He or she) [Tlielaxes] well." For the Semites, I'm going to ring
: in comfortably with the translation "People of the planet Tlielax."
i could be wrong but i dont think the term Bene Tleilax came in until at
least the 2nd book and of the two terms, tleilaxu seems to be more
common. this could support the 2nd translation well if the u ending is
equivalent to the -ian ending so that it means `of Tleilax'.
boo boo.
boo boo the magnificent
: semitic manner. This not only keeps the definitions of the various
: groups consistent, it seems in-keeping with other references
: throughout the novels: The most obvious reference to Jewish culture
: and influence is the presence of the Rabbi and his group of Jewish
: settlers. Second, many actual Hebrew words can be found in the
: novels. When Leto II comes back and enters the room with Ghanima at
: his side he announces himself and his sister as Ari and Arieh, the
: lion and lioness...these are the true translations of Ari and Arieh.
: I will not waste space on listing other references, though there are
: many, so I will end by saying that the definition given in the books
: for the Kwisatz Haderach was "the shortening of the way" and with a
: slight change Kwisatz ---> Ktzeirat the full name translates
: properly. Well, enjoy the series and interpret it as you like, for
: that is all any author could hope for.
: J. Spinner
it is interesting to note that all the major orders seem to be
recognizably descended from some group present currently on earth. the
tleilaxu in the later books (members and preservers of the great belief)
seem to come largely from the belief and culture of Islam, with several
obvious references (i can post them in a followup but i dont have the
books with me at the moment.)
the sufis or zensufis i suppose would be a cross of zen buddhism and
sufism, which is the mystic form of islam.
it is also appropriate that the atreides descended from the house of
atreus, one of the great and most tragic houses of ancient greece.
atreus offended the gods by serving them the flesh of his son in a
banquet, and his line has been cursed with tragedies since. the line of
atreus can be outlined in more detail if anyone cares but right now im
short on time.
boo boo.
John Matthew Armstrong
Adam J. Flisser <fli...@mcard27.med.nyu.edu> wrote:
>In article <4jie0a$m...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, Vetch <ve...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Well, I'd have to side with the Latinate interpretation, although I always
>>read it as stemming from gessere, "to bear." In the third person future
>>subjunctive that would read, "He (or she) shall bear it well." Presumably,
>>a reference to the Bene Gesserit's original mission of creating the
>>Qwisatz Haderach. In Chapterhouse, Darwi Odrade speaks of the "grail" that
>>the sisterhood must survive to carry on, that of guiding the human race to
>>maturity. This also fits their name very nicely. . .
>
>Well, we're having a very interesting, if nit-picking :) discussion of the
>linguistic origin of the word "Bene" in Bene Gesserit and Bene Tlielax.
>
[ reasons why bene tleilaxu and kwisatx haderach are semitic in origin cut]
by the way, I agree with these points
>ANYWAY, the point is that if we already have a plausible semitic-language
>explanation for the term "Kwisatz Haderach," why do we need to include a Latin
>explanation to translate "Bene Gesserit" when the semitic version reads,
>quite plausibly, "Descendants/People of the Bridge" (Gesher being bridge in
>Hebrew). The BG were the group dedicated over generations to bridging the
>gap between regular people and the KH, their whole reason for being.
The reason the Latin explanation is plausible is that the Bene Gesserit,
of all the groups in _Dune_, are the least likely to suffer from changing
language over time. They have a steady stream of memories going back
many generations. Why would the name change if the leadership had direct
knowledge of the meaning and sound of the original name?
>(1) Using Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation being best, would argue that
>the terms BG and KH are both derived from the same, ie semitic, origin.
This simplest explanation leaves out one of then most important facts. The
Bene Gesserit and Bene Tleilaxu are rivals. Since most things in _Dune_ are
representative of current or historical cases, why cannot the Bene Gesserit
represent the West and The Bene Tleilaxu represent the East? This is how
I always thought of them. The East-West rivalry goes back at least to the
when the Romans and the Greeks were fighting. The Roman Empire was finished
off by invaders from the East. Later, the spread of Islam encouraged the
expantion into Europe. This was followed by the Crusades. Then Constantinople
fell to the Turks. Anyway, the point of this is that the West was always
Latin speaking, and later, the East was Arabic speaking (or influenced in
the Turks' case).
Also, the Bene Gesserit control governments from behind the scenes, just
as the Church ran everything for quite a few years. Also, the Bene Tleilaxu
are united in government and in faith. Everyone else fights among themselves
while the Bene Gesserit run the important things. Has anyone else noticed
that until very recently, all the Arab nations supported each other. The West
on the other hand couldn't even cooperate during the Crusades.
This was not supposed to be so long, sorry.
>(3) While Bene Gesserit may also happen to translate well (?) from Latin as
>"He shall bear it well," this doesn't mean it was intended.
It translates very well. It could stand alone as a sentence if the subject
was known.
If you said "The Reverent Mother will have performed the Coverup Mission
well," I think it would come out "Mater Honoraria Missionariam Protectivam
Bene Gesserit"
Wait... was that "Mater Honoraria?" I thought they came out in the later
books. You know after the Scattering. I wish I hadn't erased (2), because
that was the part that said there was little Latin in _Dune_.
I may be wrong, but Futar may be the passsive imperfect of fugo (to put to flight).
Some thing like "being put to flight".
I'm not sure about this one though.
I have noticed some confusion as to the meaning of gesserit
in Latin. The reason is this. Here is the entry from my dicitonary:
gero, gessi, gestum 3 vt,
to carry, bear; to wear; to produce; to keep up, cherish; to manage, run;
to rule, regulate; to wage; to perform
I think most of these express what the Bene Gesserit do.
>(4) Neither side has really come up with a plausible explanation for what
>"Bene Tlielaxu" is all about. The Latin side should therefore explain what is
>meant by "(He or she) [Tlielaxes] well." For the Semites, I'm going to ring
>in comfortably with the translation "People of the planet Tlielax."
Actually, I like this idea for the meaning of Bene Tleilaxu. It fits in with
my previous tirade about East-West things.
One more thing. I beleive that Latin is the only currently existing language
that is mentioned in the _Dune_ series. I think that it pops up in GEoD.
>Looking forward to further discussion.
>Also looking for a linguist who can tell me what, if any, semitic influences
>there are on the Latin tongues, just out of curiousity.
I beleive that Latin and Sanscrit are very closely related. I have no idea
how Sanscrit related to Arabic. Same region of the world though.
Please pardon any mistranslations from Latin. I haven't had a Latin class in
2 years. I also haven't read past _Dune_ in longer than that.
--
John Armstrong
jma...@tam2000.tamu.edu
G. Michael Paine
Flisser) wrote:
snip
> Several of us are pushing the Semitic perspective, which holds that "Bene" is
> derived from the Hebrew/Arabic "Ben" meaning "son of," (Ibn as well, in Arabic
> I think), and B'nai (which you could pronounce the same as Bene, depending),
> meaning "sons of" or "descendants of." In Hebrew, as I have mentioned, the
> organization "B'nai B'rith" could be translated as "Sons of the Covenant."
> The phrase "B'nai Yisrael" means "Descendants of Israel," or "the people of
> Israel," or "Jews."
>
snip
Just another note on Bene. Beni in Arabic is used to refer to a tribe,
e.g., the Beni Atiyech, Beni Sakr, Beni Salem.
So, I think the used of Bene in the books points to the tribe-like nature
of the organizations to which Bene is prefixed. This would follow from the
many Arabic/Islamic references in the Dune books.
Michael
--
Michael Paine
g...@lamg.com
Mit der Dummheit kampfen Gotter selbst vergebens.
Vetch
regards Fremen culture and later, the Islamiyat tongue and religion of the
Tleilaxu. However, it would be silly to ignore the strong presence of
Latin language and cultural influences as well. Think of character names
such as Miles (Latin for "soldier") Teg, or Moneo (Latin for "I advise" or
"I warn"). The Bene Gesserit are partly organized using the model of a
religious order. They have Latin name for their programs, such as the
Missionaria Protectiva. Even the Honored Matres after all their evolution
in the Scattering still have a name that is Latin. The Bene Gesserit note
this in Chapterhouse and it is one of the clues that they are in fact
descendents of scattered Reverend Mothers. Why would the Bene Gesserit
themselves switch from Latin to arabic for the name of their organization?
And "Bene" is not the same nor "derived" from the arabic "ben." They are
two different words with two different meanings. The e on the end of Bene
is there not through some curious and unexplained linguistic shift in the
arabic "ben," but becuase it in fact belongs there as part of the Latin
word "bene," meaning well.
Quod erat demonstrandum.
John Holder
>We've also had a discussion (although some time ago, now) about the meaning of
>the term "Kwizatz Haderach." I don't recall if we came up with a translation
>of Kwizatz, but in Hebrew (I can't speak for Arabic), HaDerekh means "The Way."
>I think we had decided that Kwisatz Haderach means "Guardian of the Way." Is
>this actually a description of KH from the book? (I can't remember).
In the book, Herbert says that Kwisatz Haderach means: "The shortening of
the way", so you are close, but if you read carefully, you wouldn't have had
to figure it out...
--
John Holder (jho...@nmsu.edu) http://speedracer.nmsu.edu/~jholder/
"Anyone who considers arithmetical methods of producing random
digits is, of course, in a state of sin." - John von Neumann
robert donoghue
: (2) This is also consistent with the entire semitic motif in the Dune series.
: Let's not overlook this obvious point. From Fedaykin = Fedayeen to Bedwine =
: Bedouin and including the desert culture, a semitic theme definitely dominates
: the Dune universe. The Latin references may be there, but not on the same
: scale.
G. Michael Paine
snip
. The e on the end of Bene
> is there not through some curious and unexplained linguistic shift in the
> arabic "ben," but becuase it in fact belongs there as part of the Latin
> word "bene," meaning well.
>
You may be right, however in the context of the books it would seem more
logical to assume that Bene was from the Arabic Beni as in tribe, or
brother.
Put "well" before the groups that have Bene before them; does not make
much sense. Does it?
Regards
John Santry
>linguistic origin of the word "Bene" in Bene Gesserit and Bene Tlielax.
>
>derived from the Hebrew/Arabic "Ben" meaning "son of," (Ibn as well, in
Arabic
>I think), and B'nai (which you could pronounce the same as Bene, depending),
>meaning "sons of" or "descendants of." In Hebrew, as I have mentioned, the
>organization "B'nai B'rith" could be translated as "Sons of the Covenant."
>The phrase "B'nai Yisrael" means "Descendants of Israel," or "the people of
>Israel," or "Jews."
>
of
>the term "Kwizatz Haderach." I don't recall if we came up with a translation
>of Kwizatz, but in Hebrew (I can't speak for Arabic), HaDerekh means "The
Way."
>I think we had decided that Kwisatz Haderach means "Guardian of the Way." Is
>this actually a description of KH from the book? (I can't remember).
>
>explanation for the term "Kwisatz Haderach," why do we need to include a
Latin
>explanation to translate "Bene Gesserit" when the semitic version reads,
>quite plausibly, "Descendants/People of the Bridge" (Gesher being bridge in
>Hebrew). The BG were the group dedicated over generations to bridging the
>gap between regular people and the KH, their whole reason for being.
>
that
>the terms BG and KH are both derived from the same, ie semitic, origin.
>
>Let's not overlook this obvious point. From Fedaykin = Fedayeen to Bedwine =
>Bedouin and including the desert culture, a semitic theme definitely
dominates
>the Dune universe. The Latin references may be there, but not on the same
>scale.
>
>"He shall bear it well," this doesn't mean it was intended.
>
>"Bene Tlielaxu" is all about. The Latin side should therefore explain what
is
>meant by "(He or she) [Tlielaxes] well." For the Semites, I'm going to ring
>in comfortably with the translation "People of the planet Tlielax."
>
I love nit-picking.
"Bene gesserit" is, without question, a Latin phrase, if an odd one; I doubt
Herbert was unaware of this. The verb in question has a variety of meanings,
from "wear", as in clothes, "bear", as in carry, to the meaning most often
seen by Latin students, "wage", as in war. In this sense it means to manage,
administrate, and so forth. "She will have administered well" is a literal
translation--no guessing about it! Nor is it inappropriate to the mission of
the BG school: politics.
I seem to recall that Herbert named the BG after the Jesuits
(gesserit/Jesuit)--also a single-sex band of religio-political (?!)
insiders--as well as CHOAM after Noam Chomsky....
Of course, Herbert may have meant more than one thing at a time; Adam's
explanation of the "Bene" in "BG" and "BT" is certainly compelling, and I am
inclined to agree; but just as Latin cannot account for the (place name,
nonsense) word "Tleilax", Semitic languages cannot account for the (actual
Latin, gramatically correct) word "gesserit".
Adam J. Flisser
>There certainly is a lot of arabic influence in the books, especially as
>regards Fremen culture and later, the Islamiyat tongue and religion of the
>Tleilaxu. However, it would be silly to ignore the strong presence of
>Latin language and cultural influences as well. Think of character names
>such as Miles (Latin for "soldier") Teg, or Moneo (Latin for "I advise" or
>"I warn"). The Bene Gesserit are partly organized using the model of a
>religious order. They have Latin name for their programs, such as the
>Missionaria Protectiva. Even the Honored Matres after all their evolution
>in the Scattering still have a name that is Latin. The Bene Gesserit note
>this in Chapterhouse and it is one of the clues that they are in fact
>descendents of scattered Reverend Mothers. Why would the Bene Gesserit
>themselves switch from Latin to arabic for the name of their organization?
>And "Bene" is not the same nor "derived" from the arabic "ben." They are
>is there not through some curious and unexplained linguistic shift in the
>arabic "ben," but becuase it in fact belongs there as part of the Latin
>word "bene," meaning well.
Ah, but note that the BG call themselves "The Sisterhood." Remember, in the
Hebrew, "B'nai" means Brotherhood. Given 100,000 years of linguistic evolution
is it difficult to imagine that "Bene" might be a form of a similar word
meaning Sisterhood? My Hebrew isn't great, so if anyone knows the feminine
plural form of B'nai, please post.
Also, note that the "bene" is not being transformed in
some weird linguistic shift - it's just a different spelling and slightly
different spoken form that has evolved over tens of thousands of years, much
in the way that "Ye Olde Food Shoppe" a few hundred years ago is now "The Old
Food Shop," or "There be tygers heare" is now "There are tigers here." Thus,
b'NAI ----> beNE. Sounds almost the same, looks almost the same.
Still, some good points. There's much more Latin-influenced terminology
then I had remembered offhand. I STILL don't think that "Bene" in BG was
meant to be Latin, however, because the Semitic translation just makes
more sense to me. Try this simple test.
Which of the following translations of this sentence makes the most sense?
"Hello, we're from the Bene Gesserit."
(a) "Hello, we're from the Sisterhood of the Bridge." (Semitic)
(b) "Hello, we're from the He Shall Bear it Well." (Latin)
Okay. Now if you chose (a), choose (a) again below, just to stay consistent.
Same for (b).
"Hi! We're the Bene Tlielax"
(a) "Hi! We're the People of Tlielax."
(b) "Hi! We're the He shall Tlielax well."
You make the call.
Still, a strong post from the Latin side, Mr. Vetch. And regardless of who
is "right," I think we can both agree that it's great to have a work like
Herbert's _Dune_ that can raise this kind of debate on all levels.
Adam Flisser
j2sp...@novice.uwaterloo.ca
I tend to agree with the Semitic interpretation of Dune. Not only
does the word "bene" fit its intention when translated semitically, it
seems inkeeping with the semitic overtones and sometimes even themes
in the books. Let's not forget the presence of the Rabbi and his
tribe in the later books...obviously Herbert wanted to incorporate
Judaism into his vision of future culture. On the topic of the
Kwisatz Haderach, the meaning given in the book is "the shortening of
the way". We all agree that the literal Hebrew translation of
"haderech" (similar sound and spelling) is "the way". If we change
Kwisatz to Kzeirat (not a huge stretch), then the title translates
exactly to "the shortening of the way". I believe that this was
Herbert's intention all along. These are just examples of words in
Dune that could be Semitic in origin. There are also several words
and phrases used that are plain and simple Hebrew. I will cite one
example off hand: When Leto II returns from his transformation and
enters with Ghanima at his side, he announces their presence as Ari
and Arieh, the lion and lioness of the Atreidies...Ari and Arieh
translate directly to lion and lioness.
I put it to you all that one person's interpretation of Dune is merely
that...I think that the brilliance of Herbert's writing is his ability
to inspire in his readers the will to imagine and interpret as they
see fit. No one interpretation is correct, and we all see different
but equally great things.
J. Spinner
j2sp...@novice.uwaterloo.ca
>Ah, but note that the BG call themselves "The Sisterhood." Remember, in the
>Hebrew, "B'nai" means Brotherhood. Given 100,000 years of linguistic evolution
>is it difficult to imagine that "Bene" might be a form of a similar word
>meaning Sisterhood? My Hebrew isn't great, so if anyone knows the feminine
>plural form of B'nai, please post.
For anyone not up on their Hebrew, B'nai is pronounced Beney and thus
sounds alot like Bene. The plural feminine form is B'not pronounced
Benot.
J. Spinner
David Wald
>Why would the Bene Gesserit themselves switch from Latin to arabic for the name of their organization?
Good point. But why, then, would the Bene Tleilax use it as well?
Their culture is obviously a Semitic base as evidenced by their
religion and their language. They also hated the Bene Gesserit,
calling them witches and holding their abilities with scorn. So why
would they choose to slip on that one point? Now, while the Bene
Gesserit seem to be a mostly Latin derived group, it is odd that
Kwisatz Haderach translates so neatly into a Semitic tongue. While
there is most certainly a strong Latin influence on the language of
the book, I hold that it did not affect the names, that the names ARE
Semitic, and that this is yet another tool of Herbert's to point out
the Fremen similarites.
Just my thoughts...
(Please respond to see...@digital.net, I am using a borrowed account
to post this....or respond not at all.)
"Early to rise and early to bed, makes a man healthy, but socially
dead."
-Yakko Warner
John Fenton
> In article <4jvfoj$5...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ve...@aol.com (Vetch) wrote:
> snip
>
> . The e on the end of Bene
> > is there not through some curious and unexplained linguistic shift in the
> > arabic "ben," but becuase it in fact belongs there as part of the Latin
> > word "bene," meaning well.
> >
>
> You may be right, however in the context of the books it would seem more
> logical to assume that Bene was from the Arabic Beni as in tribe, or
> brother.
> Put "well" before the groups that have Bene before them; does not make
> much sense. Does it?
>
As I understand it, vowels have minor importance in Hamito-Semitic languages.
I expect that FH knew that and deliberately let the language evolve from now
into the future (languages do that sort of thing).
I think I was the first person in this thread to suggest that 'Bene' was
derived from Hamito-Semitic sources. My Latin was never up to translating
'Bene Gesserit' but someone else has pointed out that there is a good
translation and suggested that FH was making a sort of pun ie both
Latin and Arabic sources are tenable. In *reality*, this would be unlikely,
of course but the *Dune universe* is FH's invention and he could do what he
wanted in it. All Dune fans will surely concede that FH was clever enough
to do this!
--
John Fenton
=================================================
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Adam Stone
Flisser) wrote:
: Which of the following translations of this sentence makes the most sense?
:
: "Hello, we're from the Bene Gesserit."
:
: (a) "Hello, we're from the Sisterhood of the Bridge." (Semitic)
: (b) "Hello, we're from the He Shall Bear it Well." (Latin)
:
: Okay. Now if you chose (a), choose (a) again below, just to stay consistent.
: Same for (b).
:
: "Hi! We're the Bene Tlielax"
:
: (a) "Hi! We're the People of Tlielax."
: (b) "Hi! We're the He shall Tlielax well."
:
: You make the call.
Your assumption that the Bene Gesserit and Bene Tleilax must come from the
same linguistic tradition is not well founded. In fact, one of the most
plausible explanations (which I don't remember seeing anyone present) is
that the root for the Bene in Bene Gesserit and that for the Bene in Bene
Tleilax are in fact different. It is quite possible that the Romance root
and the Semetic root, over the course of time and the popular shift to
Gallach, were adapted as identical words. Usually, this kind of linguistic
"melding" of similar words from different souces into a single new word is
flagged by the presence of a double meaning for the new word (the old
meaning from each source is now represented by the single new word), but
in the case of proper names, such melding can be seemless.
Now, while it would seem impossible to argue that the Tleilaxu "Bene" is
not from a Semetic root (all the evidence you need can be found in
_Heretics_), the possibility that "Bene Gesserit" comes from a Romance
root is significant. For instance, "Reverend Mother" and "Honored Matre"
(although HM's are not properly BG) are both Latin roots. "Missinaria
Protectiva" is a Latin phrase. There are actually many other examples
("Imprinter" and "Archivist" are also words of Latin descent) even though
it seems ridiculous to think that these all may have been selected
purposefully.
If we consider the meaning of "Bene Gesserit," presuming the Latin root, I
think it's a very accurate description of who the BG are. Consider that
much Bene Gesserit training is concentrated on how to carry oneself. It is
undeniable that they "bear" themselves well. On a larger level, in the
later books, it is the Bene Gesserit who are forced to "bear" the weight
of Leto's Golden Path.
Just adding another possible answer to the question.
-adam
Nifty-Ass Home Page: http://pantheon.cis.yale.edu/~abstone/
Occam's Razor--
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necissitateum.
Entities are not to be multiplied beyond necessity.
Entities are not to be multiplied beyond necessity.
Karl Mac Mc Kinnon
One thing that might come in handy here is the philosopher Fred
Neitzxhse (yeah, I can't spell it for shit). In "Thus Spoke Zarathustra"
he makes the quote, "man is a bridge between the beast and the overman."
Given the Bene Gesserit view of humanity in DUNE, "the Sisterhood of the
Bridge" looks good.
CapSatan.
Adam J. Flisser
John Santry <san...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
>I love nit-picking.
[snip]
>Of course, Herbert may have meant more than one thing at a time; Adam's
>explanation of the "Bene" in "BG" and "BT" is certainly compelling, and I am
>inclined to agree; but just as Latin cannot account for the (place name,
>nonsense) word "Tleilax", Semitic languages cannot account for the (actual
>Latin, gramatically correct) word "gesserit".
>
Now _this_ explanation I like. I hate to end this (fun) argument, but it
would seem as if Herbert constructed an interesting pun quite on purpose.
Anyone know about Herbert's personal linguistic interest or ability?
Adam Flisser
George Foot
>Ah, but note that the BG call themselves "The Sisterhood." Remember, in the
>Hebrew, "B'nai" means Brotherhood. Given 100,000 years of linguistic evolution
>is it difficult to imagine that "Bene" might be a form of a similar word
>meaning Sisterhood? My Hebrew isn't great, so if anyone knows the feminine
>plural form of B'nai, please post.
I have to agree - it seems accepted that 'Atreides' derives from
'Atreus' and means 'Son of Atreus'; why shouldn't this sort of
construction carry over to Bene Tleilax and Bene Gesserit?
>Still, a strong post from the Latin side, Mr. Vetch. And regardless of who
>is "right," I think we can both agree that it's great to have a work like
>Herbert's _Dune_ that can raise this kind of debate on all levels.
Yep, I reckon that's undisputable. Well, at least in this group. :)
George Foot
gf...@mymail.com
Schura Vorona
Paine) writes:
>
>In article <4jvfoj$5...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ve...@aol.com (Vetch)
wrote:
>snip
>
>. The e on the end of Bene
>> is there not through some curious and unexplained linguistic shift
in the
>> arabic "ben," but becuase it in fact belongs there as part of the
Latin
>> word "bene," meaning well.
>>
>
>You may be right, however in the context of the books it would seem
more
>logical to assume that Bene was from the Arabic Beni as in tribe, or
>brother.
>Put "well" before the groups that have Bene before them; does not make
>much sense. Does it?
>
>
>Michael
>
>--
>Michael Paine
>g...@lamg.com
>Mit der Dummheit kampfen Gotter selbst vergebens.
It could also come from the Hebrew b'nei (sons/children of)
Wonko the SANE
Schura Vorona
Wonko the Sane
"Madness takes its toll...please leave exact change"
John Fenton
Wow! That is very convincing.
robert donoghue
Schura Vorona
writes:
>
On the topic of the
>Kwisatz Haderach, the meaning given in the book is "the shortening of
>the way". We all agree that the literal Hebrew translation of
>"haderech" (similar sound and spelling) is "the way". If we change
>Kwisatz to Kzeirat (not a huge stretch), then the title translates
>exactly to "the shortening of the way". >
>
A new insight from my sister. LeKavetz in hebrew is the infinitive "to
shrink, thus K'vitzat ( = kwisatz) means "the shrinking of" Haderech
"the way".
Wonko aka Yaron
George Foot
>Any ideas on what the interpretation of the term SEITCH is?
Surely that's just an invented word - he gives its meaning in the
books: a safe place in times of danger.
George Foot
gf...@mymail.com
Matt Granberry
>Which of the following translati
> "Hello, we're from the Bene Gesserit."
>
>(a) "Hello, we're from the Sisterhood of the Bridge." (Semitic)
>(b) "Hello, we're from the He Shall Bear it Well." (Latin)
Good point, but look below.
> "Hi! We're the Bene Tlielax"
>
>(a) "Hi! We're the People of Tlielax."
>(b) "Hi! We're the He shall Tlielax well."
Okay, the latin looks bad, but would it not be sisters of Tlielax?
If it evolved to mean "sisterhood," wouldn't there be two forms of the
word?
Matt Granberry
Syed Yusuf
>>>Qwisatz Haderach. In Chapterhouse, Darwi Odrade speaks of the "grail" that
This is interesting because of a special I saw on the descovery channel
about the Templar knights and the "Holy Grail"
the theory was the The Knights Templar weren't protecting a "cup" but
that "San grail" (holy grail) was _actually_
"sang royal" (royal bloodline)
Which would make sense because we already know that the Bene Gisserit were
attempting to preserve/promote specific bloodlines to produce the KH
(I'm only speculating, I haven't read Chapterhouse yet)
q> >explanation to translate "Bene Gesserit" when the semitic version reads,
q> >quite plausibly, "Descendants/People of the Bridge" (Gesher being bridge in
q> >Hebrew). The BG were the group dedicated over generations to bridging the
q> >gap between regular people and the KH, their whole reason for being.
I think that's stretching it. I haven't found a satisfactorty 'Gesserit'
explination, (but it might yet be arabic; my arabic is weak)
--
Syed Yusuf
http://www.uidaho.edu/~yusuf921
... ... ... ...
(* *) (x x) (o O) (O o)
ooO--(_)--Ooo-ooO--(_)--Ooo-ooO--(_)--Ooo-ooO--(_)--Ooo-
Official Silly Sig 2, collect all 5
Syed Yusuf
q> One thing that might come in handy here is the philosopher Fred
q> Neitzxhse (yeah, I can't spell it for shit). In "Thus Spoke Zarathustra"
q> he makes the quote, "man is a bridge between the beast and the overman."
q> Given the Bene Gesserit view of humanity in DUNE, "the Sisterhood of the
q> Bridge" looks good.
I stand corrected, I've read "Zarathustra" I agree with that
interpretation of Gisserit
q> CapSatan.
--
Syed Yusuf <yusu...@uidaho.edu> | http://www.uidaho.edu/~yusuf921
Keep me away from Wisdom that does not Cry, Philosophy that does not Laugh,
and Greatness that does not bow before Children
--Kalil Gibran
Brent Russell
First off, don't forget that the Dune universe is in the real far future of our
universe.
When I read Dune etc etc, I thought I read that the BG used several forgotten
languages, one of which I thought to be Latin. I interpret the uses of slant
spellings as FH using artistic license to distort the words, because he didn't
want to write too blatantly. For instance, if FH thought that a guy, Claudius,
was an idiot, he would symbolize him in a book as Klaadius or something [White
did much of the same in The Once and Future King]. That would distinguish
between the Latin and Semetic words used in the books: once again, the names of
the characters were Semetic, because of whatever heritage, but the characters
used Latin. There, I think that's got it.
Also, in Chapterhouse, we are presented with an intact Jewish community that
has been hiding and preserving itself since all people originally left Earth.
And, in answer to a long ago posted question, if not a fact then it can be
presumed that they also preserved the Hebrew language.
Some even have a serated edge!!!!!!
-Brent
em...@netvision.net.il
In Article<4lunhj$6...@news-e2d.gnn.com>, <Russ...@gnn.com> write:
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> From: Brent Russell <Russ...@gnn.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.fan.dune
> Subject: Re: Semitic vs. Latin interpretation of "bene"
> Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 23:18:21
> Organization: GNN
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It is almost definatly a double meaning