Paul's Title

[tony]

Since Paul's father was a duke, What title did that confer upon Paul?

[Dr Raveem Ismail]

None (except an honorific "Noble Born") until he succeeded to his father's title...

It's never fully clear whether the Dune universe titles were purely feudal (in which case losing your fief means losing your title) or personal such that titles persisted loss of territory.

[Dr Raveem Ismail]

Those are more descriptions rather than any title. Even "My Lord" is an honorific which in no way means a title (feudal or personal) being Paul's. Herbert seems to have modelled the system quite closely on British/English titles.




On 17 Jul 2015, at 18:25, <stephen....@verizon.net> <stephen....@verizon.net> wrote:



-----Original Message----- From: Dr Raveem Ismail
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015 11:45 AM Newsgroups: alt.fan.dune Subject: Re: Paul's Title

> None (except an honorific "Noble Born") until he succeeded to his father's title...

I remember that Gurney told Kynes that Paul could be called "my Lord." Paul was also called the "heir-designate."

> It's never fully clear whether the Dune universe titles were purely feudal (in which case
> losing your fief means losing your title) or personal such that titles persisted loss of
> territory.

That's a good question.

[tony]

Tony replied:

Thank you for supplying this useful information. I wasn't exactly sure what
"My Lord" meant in terms of a title. As you say, it is an honorific, but I
notice it is an honorific not used in the United States. I can't imagine
calling anyone "my Lord" here in the US, although I suppose there is no law
against it. I did a word search of the novel "Dune," and found no use of
the phrase "Noble Born" referring to Paul. Gurney advises Kynes that the
title could be used to refer to Leto, and I'm sure we all recall that the
Shadout Mapes incorrectly used term to refer to Jessica.

I always thought the term "heir-designate" possessed, at least, a legal
significance, although the term's status as a title seemed unclear.
According to this line of reasoning, Paul didn't actually obtain his title
in "Dune" until his father died. However, the fact that he was the
"heir-designate" made possible his acquisition of the title upon his
father's death.

We should also note that the Baron referred to Paul informally as the
"Dukeling."

"And he turned his attention back to the Mentat. 'What of the Dukeling, the
child Paul, my dear Piter?' (p. 13 of 477)"

* * *

"Dr Raveem Ismail" wrote in message
news:0698cc70-90d6-4ae8...@googlegroups.com...

[Dr Raveem Ismail]

Actually I believe you have some very specific foundational laws as regards titles of nobility in the US. You have none of your own, and you're not allowed to accept any foreign ones either. Instead, you've built up the equivalent hierarchy using other means: money, race, Mayflower/ancestry, office holding, etc.

The equivalents of "heir designate" (which are "heir apparent" and "heir presumptive") don't really have any legal standing at all, apart from being able to use the father's second-highest title as a purely courtesy title, and, in UK titles, what used to be the extremely rare writ of acceleration, granting real power in the second chamber to a peer's heir. The important thing from the Dune perspective is that it cleared up the succession within the Dune universe: in the real world, only children born of marriage can be heirs, in Dune, it showed us that children born of concubines could also be nominated. That practise harks back to some of the oldest practise for titles where the title was tied to the land, so could be assigned or sold, which matches the feudal nature of Dune's titles very well.

As you mention, "Dukeling" is purely colloquial.

[tony]

"Dr Raveem Ismail" wrote in message

news:d0083095-9ac1-4d9a...@googlegroups.com...

Actually I believe you have some very specific foundational laws as regards
titles of nobility in the US. You have none of your own, and you're not
allowed to accept any foreign ones either. Instead, you've built up the
equivalent hierarchy using other means: money, race, Mayflower/ancestry,
office holding, etc.

Tony replied: I believe US citizens are free to accept or reject titles
from foreign governments. However, the US government cannot award titles to
its citizens. Here is a list of US citizens who have received honorary
knighthoods: Douglas Fairbanks Jr., Bill Gates, Rudi Guiliani, Billy
Graham, Alan Greenspan, J Edgar Hoover, Bob Hope, Henry Kissinger, Andre
Previn, Norman Swarzkopf Jr. and Steven Spielberg.

The equivalents of "heir designate" (which are "heir apparent" and "heir
presumptive") don't really have any legal standing at all, apart from being
able to use the father's second-highest title as a purely courtesy title,
and, in UK titles, what used to be the extremely rare writ of acceleration,
granting real power in the second chamber to a peer's heir. The important
thing from the Dune perspective is that it cleared up the succession within
the Dune universe: in the real world, only children born of marriage can be
heirs, in Dune, it showed us that children born of concubines could also be
nominated. That practise harks back to some of the oldest practise for
titles where the title was tied to the land, so could be assigned or sold,
which matches the feudal nature of Dune's titles very well.

Tony replied: That is an interesting and informative perspective. However,
in the Dune Universe, titles are inextricably related to genetics and the
Bene Gesserit breeding plan. It would therefore make sense in that Universe
that a genetic relationship would parallel a titular one, to some extent.
We should also consider that the Dune system of titles is probably not based
exclusively on the English system. For example, at the top of the hierarchy
is the "Emperor," a title not recognized in the English system.

<snip>

[Dr Raveem Ismail]

I don't see any deep intrinsic connection between the BG's program and Dune titles, although practically speaking, your point stands. Leto designates Paul, the Baron designates Feyd. Technically, they could have designated commoners who had no genetic value to the BG, but I'm guessing the combined forces of the Emperor and the BG's machinations would pressure for that not to happen, which is to your point.

Oh but it is. Very very English, or I suppose by the time I'm referring to, British. Specifically, the king or queen was also emperor, or empress, of India, hence IND. IMP. on the pre-decimal coins. Referred to as the "King Emperor" to allow, I suppose, the distinction of being King of the UK, but Emperor of India. My reading of Dune certainly brought across to me that Herbert had a very sound grasp of British titles for the most part.

[jerk-o]

On Sat, 5 Sep 2015 20:46:42 -0700 (PDT), Dr Raveem Ismail <ism...@raveem.com>
wrote

>I don't see any deep intrinsic connection between the BG's program and Dune
>titles, although practically speaking, your point stands. Leto designates
>Paul, the Baron designates Feyd. Technically, they could have designated
>commoners who had no genetic value to the BG, but I'm guessing the combined
>forces of the Emperor and the BG's machinations would pressure for that not
>to happen, which is to your point.

I do think that another reason why Leto designates Paul and the Baron designates
Feyd is because they both want their house to have certain values and certain
things it focuses on after they're dead, and it's easier to raise your kids to
help with that since you'll be there the entire time they're growing up.
--
no, i didn't forget the 'F's
https://github.com/BunsenLabs

[tony]

"Dr Raveem Ismail" wrote in message

news:f6b67c54-b121-482d...@googlegroups.com...

I don't see any deep intrinsic connection between the BG's program and Dune
titles, although practically speaking, your point stands. Leto designates
Paul, the Baron designates Feyd. Technically, they could have designated
commoners who had no genetic value to the BG, but I'm guessing the combined
forces of the Emperor and the BG's machinations would pressure for that not
to happen, which is to your point.

Oh but it is. Very very English, or I suppose by the time I'm referring to,
British. Specifically, the king or queen was also emperor, or empress, of
India, hence IND. IMP. on the pre-decimal coins. Referred to as the "King
Emperor" to allow, I suppose, the distinction of being King of the UK, but
Emperor of India. My reading of Dune certainly brought across to me that
Herbert had a very sound grasp of British titles for the most part.

Tony replied:

Okay I did not realize the king or queen of England was also emperor or
empress of India. You therefore make a very good point about Dune titles
having a very British feel to them. I did have one question, In Dune there
is a character called Count Fenring. Now isn't "Count" a French rather than
British title?

With respect to the Bene Gesserit breeding program and titles, I remember
how the potential Kwisatz Haderach was to be the product of the two royal
families: Atreides and Harkonnens. Consequently, the Bene Gesserit was
intensely concerned with these two aristocratic breeding lines. This
together with the Bene Gesserit emphasis on natural procreation suggested to
me that the Bene Gesserit breeding program was closely related to the Dune
system of aristocratic succession, but it is possible that I was reading too
much into these associations.

[Dr Raveem Ismail]

And since when were the Harkonnens royal? As is mentioned during the feud, Leto knows that what rankles apart from an Atreides having a Harkonnen banished, is that the Atreides are cousins of the emperor (you're right on that one), but that the Harkonnen title came out of their CHOAM "pocketbook". I.e., the Harkonnens purchsed their nobility, whilst the Atreides had theirs by virtue of blood going bak, I suppose to military service (And that's supposed to be better somehow?).

Absolutely typical snobbery between the "nobility of the sword" and other types. Not stuff which FH necessarily admired, but he masterfully pokes fun at the beliefs of even the heroes in his universe.

[tony]

"Dr Raveem Ismail" wrote in message news:

And since when were the Harkonnens royal? As is mentioned during the feud,
Leto knows that what rankles apart from an Atreides having a Harkonnen
banished, is that the Atreides are cousins of the emperor (you're right on
that one), but that the Harkonnen title came out of their CHOAM
"pocketbook". I.e., the Harkonnens purchsed their nobility, whilst the
Atreides had theirs by virtue of blood going bak, I suppose to military
service (And that's supposed to be better somehow?).

Absolutely typical snobbery between the "nobility of the sword" and other
types. Not stuff which FH necessarily admired, but he masterfully pokes fun
at the beliefs of even the heroes in his universe.

Tony replied:

I agree that the royal pedigree of the Harkonnens was less unimpeachable
than that of the Emperor or Leto Atreides. However, within the Dune
Universe framework the Harkonnens were aristocrats.

[Brother Phil]

"tony" <to...@hotmail.com> Wrote in message:

> Since Paul's father was a duke, What title did that confer upon Paul?
>

In itself, it would probably only have made him the Honourable
Paul Atreides, but if Leto had lesser titles
Paul could possibly
used one of them as a courtesy title, if Leto let him do
so.
--

[Brother Phil]

"tony" <to...@hotmail.com> Wrote in message:

> "Dr Raveem Ismail" wrote in message
> news:f6b67c54-b121-482d...@googlegroups.com...
>
> I don't see any deep intrinsic connection between the BG's program and Dune
> titles, although practically speaking, your point stands. Leto designates
> Paul, the Baron designates Feyd. Technically, they could have designated
> commoners who had no genetic value to the BG, but I'm guessing the combined
> forces of the Emperor and the BG's machinations would pressure for that not
> to happen, which is to your point.
>
> Oh but it is. Very very English, or I suppose by the time I'm referring to,
> British. Specifically, the king or queen was also emperor, or empress, of
> India, hence IND. IMP. on the pre-decimal coins. Referred to as the "King
> Emperor" to allow, I suppose, the distinction of being King of the UK, but
> Emperor of India. My reading of Dune certainly brought across to me that
> Herbert had a very sound grasp of British titles for the most part.
>
>
> Tony replied:
>
> Okay I did not realize the king or queen of England was also emperor or
> empress of India. You therefore make a very good point about Dune titles
> having a very British feel to them. I did have one question, In Dune there
> is a character called Count Fenring. Now isn't "Count" a French rather than
> British title?
>

It may be of French origin, but it does get used in the British
nobility - a Count would have dominion over a county, in the same
way that a Duke would rule a duchy or a Lord would have a manor.
IIRC, Count is equivalent to Earl, which comes from the Saxon
system of nobility.
--

[Brother Phil]

Dr Raveem Ismail <ism...@raveem.com> Wrote in message:

> And since when were the Harkonnens royal? As is mentioned during the feud, Leto knows that what rankles apart from an Atreides having a Harkonnen banished, is that the Atreides are cousins of the emperor (you're right on that one), but that the Harkonnen title came out of their CHOAM "pocketbook". I.e., the Harkonnens purchsed their nobility, whilst the Atreides had theirs by virtue of blood going bak, I suppose to military service (And that's supposed to be better somehow?).
>
> Absolutely typical snobbery between the "nobility of the sword" and other types. Not stuff which FH necessarily admired, but he masterfully pokes fun at the beliefs of even the heroes in his universe.
>

According to the prequel books, the history of
both families goes
back to the Butlerian Jihad - unfortunately, the circumstances of
the heroic death of, I think Xavier Harkonnen it was, lead to him
being seen as a traitor. His counterpart in the Atreides family
was a close friend, and knew the truth, but sadly this was not
passed on, and so a feud grew between the two families.
--

[Dr Raveem Ismail]

Seriously, you're bringing up the prequels in this forum? As a reference to canon information in Herbert's work?

[Dr Raveem Ismail]

On Monday, 28 December 2015 00:56:34 UTC, Brother Phil wrote:
> > Tony replied:
> >
> > Okay I did not realize the king or queen of England was also emperor or
> > empress of India. You therefore make a very good point about Dune titles
> > having a very British feel to them. I did have one question, In Dune there
> > is a character called Count Fenring. Now isn't "Count" a French rather than
> > British title?
> >
> It may be of French origin, but it does get used in the British
> nobility - a Count would have dominion over a county, in the same
> way that a Duke would rule a duchy or a Lord would have a manor.
> IIRC, Count is equivalent to Earl, which comes from the Saxon
> system of nobility.
> --

This is actually an interesting point, although obscure and irrelevant to most of humanity alive today. In Britain, simply replace Count with Earl: Britain categorically has no counts. Frank Herbert might have made a slight mixup on this point though - see earlier discussion of Count/Earl at http://www.jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1818&p=67897&hilit=raveem+count#p67897