Just read the last dune book.
Travis A Finucane
Pretty shmucky way to end the series. Uber-being face dancers? What?
Lame.
________________________________________________________
Travis Finucane URL: www2.ucsc.edu/~finucane
Slug Ultimate 1997->
Adam
arises out of the muck of controversy over his son's writing......
ADAM
Thomas Lund
Travis A Finucane skrev:
> In case anyone cares...
> Pretty shmucky way to end the series. Uber-being face dancers? What?
> Lame.
>
> ________________________________________________________
> Travis Finucane URL: www2.ucsc.edu/~finucane
> Slug Ultimate 1997->
It's brilliant, they escape / are allowed to escape by the beings who
come out superior from the entire struggle (mankinds) so far. And we
didn't see it coming (the FD's).
They (humans) are starting over, for good or bad.
Shade
Travis A Finucane
We should sort of see it coming from Dune Messiah (I think) when
the Face Dancer is part of the half-assed plot to kill Paul. He is
the only one who doesn't give a damn that the plan is doomed to
failure. Sign of bigger things afoot, perhaps.
mikem...@my-deja.com
I quite enjoyed the ending - kind of a final twist in the tale, and
like all good books it leaves you wanting more.
One thing I have noticed with many of the books in the series is that
the reader is led along a long path with lots of things hinted at and
implied, but not a great deal actually happening in the plot. In the
final few chapters a lot seems to happen in a short space of time - it
almost seems as though 'ole Frank had the publishers on his back
pressuring him to wrap things up for release.
In CH-D we have the final battle between the BG/HM with Murbella
becoming boss of both factions, Idaho escapes in the no-ship, Odrade
dies, Sheena controls the worms, Rebecca turns up with all the other
memories saved from Lampada, etc - all in the space of about 50 pages.
All of these events could have been explored more thoroughly, I feel
(particularly the new relationship between the BG and HM). But instead
most of the book seems to cover Odrade wandering around the Orchards of
Chapterhouse fencing verbally with Bellonda.
The same thing happened in Children of Dune - Paul/The Prophet and Alia
are killed within a few pages of each other, right at the end. I can't
help thinking that they were disposed of too cheaply. The whole thing
about the Prophet being Muad'Dib was hinted at strongly on the back
cover of the book as well; "Old Atreides is gone" - as opposed to "Old
Paul Atreides is dead".
Heretics of dune was particularly extreme - Teg fights his way to a no-
ship (a few chapters of tense action in that alone, surely), then he
lands on Dune, meets up with people who thought he was dead, makes a
last stand, Dune is destroyed and the survivors escape in a no-ship.
All this in a single chapter!?.
Don't get me wrong, I know the DC is all about grand schemes about
humanity and the story is mainly a vehicle for this, but I still feel
the endings could have been stretched out more.
that's my $0.02
In article <8cl9bo$3...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>,
finu...@cse.ucsc.edu (Travis A Finucane) wrote:
> In case anyone cares...
> Pretty shmucky way to end the series. Uber-being face dancers? What?
> Lame.
>
> ________________________________________________________
> Travis Finucane URL: www2.ucsc.edu/~finucane
> Slug Ultimate 1997->
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Pamela Fay Johnston
sequel*. CH:D was a letdown for me because Herbert left a lot of loose ends
that could never be tied up due to his death. I was left wondering where he had
intended to go with his next story. Of all of the Dune books, CH:D seemed to
spend a disproportionate amount of time introducing characters and situations
that were not fully developed.
Pam
Pamela Johnston (pfj...@jove.acs.unt.edu)
Samuel Sands
Pamela Fay Johnston wrote:
> I think all of that *hinting and implying* could be called *setting up the
> sequel*. CH:D was a letdown for me because Herbert left a lot of loose ends
> that could never be tied up due to his death. I was left wondering where he had
> intended to go with his next story. Of all of the Dune books, CH:D seemed to
> spend a disproportionate amount of time introducing characters and situations
> that were not fully developed.
Although I was very disappointed that FH died and would not be writing a new 7th
Dune book, I never felt left hanging really. I sometimes wonder if Frank would have
cleared up the Marty/Daniel, Enemy of Many Faces/Handlers mystery even if he had
continued. I always felt he left the Series with good mysteries. Just like the H.M./
B.G. merge. We know the plan to subjugate the H.M.'s through the agony, but we don't
know how it works out. We are lead to believe it will be but then we have Duncan's
doubts. Although we complain about the things unknown, I can't but help wonder if
that is not what part of what that makes The Chronicles so endearing.
Sam (man of mystery) Sands
Shaun Green
news:38F4A180...@bellsouth.net...
Couldn't agree more. After all, Frank Herbert's work, despite being SF, was
so much more *real* than a lot of other authors in so many ways. And, well,
surely reality goes on for ever more? I've never once thought that the lack
of drawn strings at the end of a Dune novel was a bad thing. Oh, except
where D:HA was concerned. That conclusion was, frankly, insufferably
sloppy.
--
Shaun (all IMHO of course) Green | http://www.shaungreen.co.uk
John Kenny
Gang,
Like Shaun, I couldn't agree more!
One of the beauties of good writing is that it forces the reader to think.
If every question raised is answered in the last chapter then I feel
cheated. For my money, the final "twist" of who or what Marty and Daniel are
is one of the coolest elements in the DC. True, we are all left with only
our varied speculations, but I'll say here and now that Frank would have
given us something similar at the end of Dune 7. The man was a master at
leaving a number of open doors; which ones lead somewhere and what those
places may contain... well, none of us will ever really know. Long live the
fighter; and, long live the mysteries!!
By the way, whichever one of you jokesters sent an anonymous package
containing the dreadful HA, please know that I've donated it to my local
public library. I won't have that crappola sullying my book collection. And
while I'm thinking about it, other than the obvious, is there any *good*
reason not to move HA from the Science Fiction section to the Horror
section? It would seem to rightly belong there. Or perhaps, based on the
tender scene with Vladimir and Helen, the True Romance section?
Cheers!
John
Jim Gray
John Kenny wrote:
>
> By the way, whichever one of you jokesters sent an anonymous package
> containing the dreadful HA, please know that I've donated it to my local
> public library. I won't have that crappola sullying my book collection. And
> while I'm thinking about it, other than the obvious, is there any *good*
> reason not to move HA from the Science Fiction section to the Horror
> section? It would seem to rightly belong there. Or perhaps, based on the
> tender scene with Vladimir and Helen, the True Romance section?
>
Oh, gods! I commiserate on the horror that is HA! Did Brian ever even
bother to read the DE? I commented that I had mixed feelings about the
book in another post, but my "enjoyment" wasn't full enjoyment. It was
a decent book (_IF_ you could disregard the horrors it inflicted on what
I assumed was at least semi-canon galactic history) and it was better
than the last one or two Well of Souls books, but it wasn't even a pale
imitation of FH. I kept getting the feeling that I was watching some
other books characters wearing Dune Chronicles costumes and acting out a
play.
Has anyone bothered to catalog all of the mutilations that were done to
the DE's version of events and timelines? I'm considering it, if not...
Jim
--
"George W. Bush is a son of privilege
who was born on third and thinks he
hit a triple."
-Jim Hightower
Gunnar Harboe
Jim Gray wrote in message <38F676A0...@altoona.com>...
<snip>
>Has anyone bothered to catalog all of the mutilations that were done to
>the DE's version of events and timelines? I'm considering it, if not...
No, I don't think so. Since BH&KJA never attempted to maintain consistency
with the DE, it wouldn't really be relevant, would it? However, I once wrote
a list of inconsistencies with the Chronicles, which you might be interested
in.
I'm going to repost my small list in this thread, but first some
introductory comments:
I didn't find all of these mistakes myself. Some had been discussed quite
thoroughly before I posted the messages. On this account, some of my
comments are quite a lot briefer than the error warrants.
I'm sorry for all spelling errors, stupid attempts at humour and personal
attacks in these messages. They were written in an agitated state of mind
late at night. I've gone (or rather, will go, once I finish this message)
over them to correct errors, but I can't guarantee I caught all.
Some points have been contested. Again, I will try to mention this wherever
appropriate. Replies to some of my claims were actually made on the
Dunenovels website (Dune News, FAQ section, the "Detailed Questions"). Since
one of the quibbles addressed hadn't been raised at least on afd before my
posts, I'm reasonably certain that they're in response to me.
This isn't quite a complete list of all inconsistencies ever pointed out on
afd, but it's damn near! :-)
Bye!
Gunnar Harboe
g.ha...@ah.telia.no
___
The alt.fan.dune FAQ:
<http://jkenny.home.mindspring.com/DuneFAQIndex.html>
<http://www.faqs.org/faqs/sf/dune-faq/>
<ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/alt.fan.dune/>
<mail-...@rtfm.mit.edu>
with a body of "send pub/faqs/sf/dune-faq"
___
There should be a word-tension for "fated," conveying a
meaning opposite from a thing destined to be. There
should also be a garnish-tension for "parsley," denoting
the opposite of the leafy herb. Oh, we speak in daily
discourse of "anti-parsley," but that is another thing entire.
What the word for a thing is can consequent much.
- from "Mauve'Bib Has Ideas and Speaks Them,"
edited by the Princess Serutan
Gunnar Harboe
<snip>
OK, here it is (edited slightly from original posts ):
Here is my list of errors, weak points and general quibbles with D:HA (known
as TFM). This is by no means a master list, and I think people will be able
to add a lot more to it. Obviously, this list is chock-full of spoilers.
Anyway, here goes:
Harmonthep:
There are repeated references to this planet in TFM. OK, so they took the
name from Dune. Problem is, in Dune, it is referred to as a "no longer
existent satellite of Delta Pavonis"? For one thing, this means that it no
longer exists, and for another, that it's in the same system as Caladan.
Sure, the dynamic duo will do an Alderaan and blow it up in one of the
prequel-sequels, but see, that doesn't solve the problem, because Harmonthep
is " *supposed to have been* a no longer existent" etc., meaning it was
destroyed in more or less prehistoric times. Certainly not a few decades
before Dune.
1. Direct discrepancy.
The KH program:
There's some talk about the BG breeding program to create a KH. One thing
that's mentioned is the length of the program, I think they say 10,000
years. Then again, all readers of Dune should know that the program was 90
generations long, and this works out to 111 years in a generation. Despite
spice, I don't think this could by any stretch be an average age for
reproduction. The usual figure is 20 years. It doesn't help that the DE
makes the same error, this is the...
2. Direct discrepancy.
Fenring I:
There's going to be several issues with Fenring, so I'm numbering them from
the start. The first thing that struck me was how the dynamic duo had
totally missed that his humming was a *language*. Frank states directly that
it was a cleverly concealed code between him and his wife, Lady Margot.
However, in TFM, Fenring hums to himself for no particular reason, just to
annoy Shaddam, long before he has even met his future wife. He did this on
occasion in Dune as well, but that was obviously to conceal that it was a
means of communication.
There's no direct contradiction here, but the two obviously haven't "got
it".
1. Implausibility.
/* Some people have come forward to say that they always assumed Fenring's
humming was a bad habit made into a language by his wife. I don't find it in
character, though. */
Sandworm death:
I wrote this down as I was reading, but then Kevin J. came back and claimed
they'd based it on unpublished FH notes. It sounds strange to me, but you
can't argue with FH, can you?
1. Instance of them being right, we being wrong. (Yet still an
implausibility, I dare say.)
/* This is about the manner of sandworm disintegration in D:HA. Refer to
Dunenovels/Dune News/FAQ. */
Sapho Juice:
Well, that didn't take long! Anyone who've seen the movie will recognise the
Mentat Piter de Vries, constantly waving his hands, constantly gulping the
old sapho juice. Anyone who've read the book, however, will not. In the
book, Piter doesn't drink sapho juice, he eats spice. He doesn't gesticulate
either, that we're told. Brian and Kevin have totally left out his curious
effeminacy, his "catlike grace" (they've made him in bad shape!) and his
blue-within-blue eyes of spice addiction. They've also missed his "devilish
cunning," but I think that's unintentional.
2. Implausibility.
(BTW, I'm using "implausibility" as the term for all those occasions when
they get the atmosphere or general feel wrong. This stems from the context
where Ty first introduced the term in connection with the prequel.)
It stinks!
Without doubt. However, so do the Fremen, a point the two manage to turn
around completely. Sure, Jessica says "how rich the odours of your sietch"
or something to that effect, but that's mostly as a warning to Paul not to
go "Yeeach!". Atreides troopers are quite clear that Fremen "stink to high
heaven" in their stillsuits. Yet, in the prequel when Pardot arrives in
sietch, he experiences "aromas ... dense, rich, and redolent with humanity:
smells of life, of a confined population ... of manufacturing, cooking,
carefully concealed wastes, and even chemically exploited death." This is
hardly the stinking odours implied by Dune; "carefully concealed wastes,"
yeah right!
3. Implausibility.
/* Some people feel the descriptions are more or less equivalent, and that
the difference can be explained by Pardot being a rough nature-type guy, and
Paul being an aristo brat. I still think the difference in emphasis is too
strong to be dismissed, though. */
Dirty Tleilaxu:
The Tleilaxu are wrong on almost all accounts, of course, ranging from the
idea that their fanaticism was generally known, or even existent at the time
of the Padishah Imperium, to the sleave-darts they (and for some reason
Fenring) sport several thousand years before they were invented just before
HoD.
/* Although the narrative in HoD describes the sleave-darts as recently
invented, Scytale uses them to kill Farok in DM, and Hawat has them during
his confrontation with Jessica. So this is a FH discrepancy, not a BH/KJA
one. */
One of the most despicable errors, however, occurs on page 206 (Bantam
hardcover edition), when "Ajidica" quotes the OC Bible. As we all know, the
Tleilaxu were Zensunni, and despised all religions. As some of us know, the
Zensunni religion predated the CET and the OC Bible. It therefore follows
that a pocket of "pure" Zensunnianism would not embrace the ecumenical
effort, and certainly not quote the OC Bible. Finally I also should mention
Masters walking among the general population. That should make... 4 direct
errors concerning the Tleilaxu.
3. to 6. Direct discrepancy.
The Suk Suk Song:
An extract from the Suk Inner School Primary Doctrine is given on page 221.
It basically expresses a materialistic-mechanical view on the universe. Did
anyone stop to think how this compares to Yueh teaching Paul about the
Mystery of Life: "The language of the rocks and growing things, the language
you don't hear just with your ears." Not a problem to solve, remember, but a
reality to experience. Apparently no one did. What's worse, the co-authors
have decided to make the Suk doctors exceptionally greedy. Fine, they
probably took this from the name suk, which is explained elsewhere in the
chronicles to mean "marketplace" (which I believe is actually correct for
Arabic). However, this renders a certain situation in Dune absurd. I'm
thinking of Yueh's and Jessica's conversation:
" 'What are you thinking?' she asked.
'I am thinking that the spice brings six hundred and twenty solaris the
decagram on the open market right now. That is wealth to buy many things.'
'Does greed touch even you, Wellington?'
'Not greed.' "
What will anyone who was introduced to Dune by TFM make of this exchange?
The mind shudders.
7. Direct discrepancy.
Elacca:
On several places in the prequel, one of them being pp. 224, there is
mention of different plants and types of wood from the planet Elacca. And
right enough, elacca wood is mentioned in Dune. Had they bothered to read
the Terminology of the Imperium, though, they would have seen that Elacca
was a *type* of wood from the planet Ecaz, not a planet itself. This is just
too stupid an error.
8. Direct discrepancy.
Elrood:
There's a rather amusing little continuity error created by the plot Pinky
and the Brian propose for Elrood's death. The assassination as they see it
was a highly covert thing, not apparently suspected by anyone, and not
possible to link to the guilty. However, the source for the idea in the
first place is a small comment in the Almanak en-Ashraf that "the frequently
discredited _Pirate History of Corrino_ relates the curious story that
Fenring was responsible for the chaumurky that which disposed of Elrood IX."
Clearly, not only was Fenring's complicity in the act suspected, but the
fact that Elrood was assassinated was generally known! This is confirmed by
Shaddam's entry, which gives his reign from the "date his father, Elrood IX,
succumbed to chaumurky." I guess they can write their way out of this one
now that it has been pointed out, but for the moment, I'll log it as the...
9. Direct discrepancy.
Cyborg:
I'll just take this occasion to enthuse about the fact that William Gibson's
latest book is now out. The inventor of cyber-this and cyber-that (namely
cyberspace and cyberpunk), I thought it was sort of on-topic. I'm almost
halfway through "All tomorrow's parties" and liking it much so far. Much
better than both Idoru and The Difference Engine.
Back to my point, page 227 in the prequel asserts that cyborgs do not
violate the jihad. Wrong. At first glance, they don't violate the rule laid
down by the butlerians that "you shall not create a machine in the likeness
of man's mind," but that's like saying adultery doesn't violate the first
commandment, and hence is perfectly fine by the Old Testament. We are given
to understand there are more rules to the Great Revolt (apparently coming
down to "we don't like complex machines"), and that cyborgs do in fact
violate one of them is confirmed by the narrative of Ch:D. If not, what is
Odrade's problem?
10. Direct discrepancy.
Fixed:
This book is beyond our help. Only ten pages later, on pp. 237, there's
another basic misunderstanding. A fixed crysknife is explained as "keyed to
the body of the owner so it would dissolve upon his death." Of course, in
Dune, fixed crysknives are simply ones "treated for storage."
11. Direct discrepancy.
Guild:
Am I the only one who remembers this line from Dune: "Not even their agents
ever seen a Guildsman. The Guild's as jealous of its privacy as of its
monopoly"? Hackboy and Junior certainly don't considering the way they let
Navigators run around all over the place. I had a specific reference here,
but I seem to have mislaid it. Until someone can dig it up (I most certainly
am not reading the book again), I'll label this...
4. Implausibility.
/* Some have objected with reference to the two Guild Navigators at the end
of Dune. They were incognito, however, and not the Guildfishes of D:HA. Of c
ourse, the situation changed when Paul discovered their secrets, which
accounts for Edric in DM. */
Hawat:
Just my opinion, but I found Hawat nothing like the character we meet in
Dune. It's not a matter of less subtlety, age, or differences in writing. To
me, it was simply not the same character. Read pages 315-17 and see if you
don't agree.
5. Implausibility.
Say again?
One instance of internal contradictions within this book, actually within a
single page, namely number 323. "D'murr remained focused on what he
considered the primary question. 'Communication directly through foldspace?'
" This would make sense, if C'tair had only mentioned it at all. OK, so it
might have occured during the section break on the last page, but no
indication is given that time has past. This is either damn sloppy writing,
or an extremely simple continuity error. Given the benefit of the doubt,
I'll mark it as...
6. Implausibility
Coral gems:
Not in contradiction to anything particularly Dune-related, but really to
all common sense and previous knowledge about the habits of aristocracy, the
exalted writers manage to suggest on pp. 341 that "because of the hazards
and expense of containment, the gems did not support much of an off-world
export market, given the more viable alternative of soostones from Buzzell."
Hello! Do any of you believe nobility wouldn't be fighting over a type of
jewelry that in addition to being beautiful was exotic, unproportionally
expensive and just slightly, excitingly, dangerous? They have seriously
misjudged human psychology on this one, IMHO.
7. Implausibility.
Corrin:
Some details from the battle of Corrin are given on page 356. Contrary to
previous information that it was a space battle fought in the vicinity of
Sigma Draconis, we are now told about a "Bridge of Hrethgir". More absurdly,
perhaps, it is suggested that the Harkonnens' betrayal "nearly cost the
humans our victory against the hated machine-minds." Absurd because the
battle of Corrin took place in the year 88 BG, while the Butlerian Jihad
concluded in the year 108 BG, twenty years previously. As an aside, I would
like to assert that if the Harkonnen crime was so great, and the Atreides'
heroism so heroic, the Harkonnens could forget ever seeing the inside of the
Landsraad again.
12. Direct discrepancy.
Bela Tegeuse:
...is given as a dull (in the sense of dark), cheerless planet in TFM, I
believe in keeping with astronomical knowledge of the system assumed to be
meant. Funny, then, that the Fremen remember it as a sort of paradise lost:
"It was Ramadhan and April on Bela Tegeuse. My family sat in their pool
courtyard, in air breathed by the moisture that arose from the spray of a
fountain. There was a tree of portyguls, round and deep in colour, near at
hand. There was a basket of mish mish and baklawa and mugs of liban - all
manner of good things to eat. In our gardens and in our flocks, there was
peace ... peace in all the land. Life was good before the raiders came." Of
course, most places would seem a paradise next to Arrakis, but the Bela
Tegeuse of the prequel is certainly contraindicated by Dune.
8. Implausibility.
Sweet fifteen:
On page 206 and onwards, Leto thinks a lot about becoming Duke at age 15.
Seems familiar? To me too, so why didn't Leto himself recall this, either
when he thinks about how young Paul is in the first chapters, or among his
other death-thoughts later on? I mean, he wouldn't *have* to think about it,
but you'd expect him to, wouldn't you? I think the whole plot device is
the...
9. Implausibility.
Fenring II:
(Only two?I thought there were more... I must be forgetting some)
"A killer with the manner of a rabbit" and, "weasel-faced".
That's two descriptions we're given of Count Fenring in Dune. But it becomes
horribly wrong to try and mix them into one, like the dynamic duo do on page
456, when they say that "from some angles the weak-chinned man looked like a
weasel and from others a rabbit..." Could the gentlemen please read the
relevant passages again and figure out what they really say? Hmm?
10. Implausibility.
You're not from around here, are you?
Kevin, this isn't Star Wars. Lasgun fire isn't white-orange, like in that
universe, and like on page 465 of your Dune book. It is purple.
13. Direct discrepancy.
Witches:
*We* know, as stated on page 527, that the Bene Gesserit have their own
agenda. But this was not *generally* known (the idea that they would openly
talk about their breeding plan with Baron Harkonnen is ludicrous. That he
should be aware of his offspring by a BG is also totally contradictory to
Dune). What's the point of Truthsayers if you can't use them for testimony?
11. Implausibility.
Dur:
This has been mentioned before, but it's worth repeating. There could be no
priests of Dur crowning Shaddam on pp. 570, because Dur was a name for Leto
II in the Scattering, several thousand years later. Neither was it an old
name for a generic deity he had aquired, because the BG had to look it up to
find out what it referred to. Duh!
14. Direct discrepancy.
That's all, folks. I should think it's proved beyond doubt that Kevin J. and
Brian haven't the faintest clue about the Duniverse, and should be kept away
from it with a long stick, if possible, which unfortunately it isn't. If you
know of any more glaring errors, please add them to this list. If nothing
else, it will be amusing to see what verbal acrobatics the two perform to
"fix" the mistakes in the following two volumes. Amusing in a sort of
masochist way, that is.
Gunnar Harboe
Gunnar Harboe wrote in message <2kIK4.7702$F3.199...@news.telia.no>...
>Gunnar Harboe wrote in message ...
><snip>
>
>OK, here it is (edited slightly from original posts ):
>Here is my list of errors, weak points and general quibbles with D:HA
(known
>as TFM). This is by no means a master list, and I think people will be able
>to add a lot more to it. Obviously, this list is chock-full of spoilers.
>Anyway, here goes:
<snip>
I missed the last two, it seems:
Do I know you?
I have pointed out this one before. If Duke Leto's father, "Paulus", dies
before Jessica is born, how come she knows him well enough to talk about his
influence on Leto to Yueh, and is emotional enough about him to shout at a
picture of him? Well, I guess you can suspend disbelief for those two
things, but near the end of Dune there's a third instance which you can't
write around. Jessica to Gurney, explaining Paul's choice to fight
Feyd-Rautha: "He's like his grandfather in this mood." Proof as good as
anything that Jessica (and Gurney) knew the old Duke.
15. Direct discrepancy.
Fatman:
Many people have objected to the explanation of the Baron's fatness, citing
his known over-indulgence in food and the Harkonnen genetic penchant for
obesity (displayed in Rabban), as well as Margot Fenring's (a BG who
certainly would know of RMGHM's revenge) observance that Feyd was one "who
would not let himself go to fat". All this is evidence is circumstantial,
however, and we have one much more convincing piece of proof: In CoD, Alia
is possessed by the Baron. She begins to put on weight. Now, do you believe
that if Vladimir Harkonnen was once slim and proud of it, doomed to
grossness by a decease, when given a beautiful young female body he would
allow it to go to fat? CoD makes no sense in light of TFM, and CoD provides
a demonstration of how the Baron got so fat. It convinces me.
16. Direct discrepancy.
Slade2star
came out. Brian Herbert(his son) is supposed to be finishing it, but I think
Brian is a horrible writer so...crap.
Chris Mears
(Slade2star) wrote:
How do you know FH was writing a seventh book? He was planning it,
certainly, but did he ever start it?
--
Chris Mears
cme...@bigpond.com
ICQ: 36697123
Abdiel
From what I get, D:HA is not canon when it flatly contradicts FH's "Dune
books" or even certain aspects of the DE... If it does not do either of the
above, can it be taken as authoratative?
The reason for my asking is that there is a lot of "technology" in D:HA -
the BJ doesn't seem to be taken too seriously. The only people who really
seem to worry about it are the BT, and they are labelled by almost everyone
in the book as "religious fanatics", and marginalised.
Abdiel
Keith Falkner
Abdiel <p...@pif.com> wrote in message
news:VDnP4.179$%6.1...@news1.blktn1.nsw.optushome.com.au...
> From what I get, D:HA is not canon when it flatly contradicts FH's "Dune
> books" or even certain aspects of the DE... If it does not do either of
the
> above, can it be taken as authoratative?
Abdiel,
Brian Herbert says that HE is in charge of what is canon and what is not and
the books he has written or will write are all canon.
My dog Russet has 4 legs and a tail. If *I* call his tail a leg, Russet
still HAS only 4 legs, no matter what *I* say.
If you want to know what *I* think of BH, go mosey down to the sligsty and
take a peek at the floor. The sty is full of it, and so is BH.
Elizabeth
John Kenny
>
> From what I get, D:HA is not canon when it flatly contradicts FH's "Dune
> books" or even certain aspects of the DE... If it does not do either of
the
> above, can it be taken as authoratative?
>
> the BJ doesn't seem to be taken too seriously. The only people who really
> seem to worry about it are the BT, and they are labelled by almost
everyone
> in the book as "religious fanatics", and marginalised.
>
> Abdiel
Abdiel,
Is HA authorative? Well, in this little corner of the Internet, most will
say no. Mostly the afd crowd will say that because they don't really like
the book. I'm one of them.
Backing off my opinion of the writing skills of Messrs. Herbert and
Anderson, in my humble opinion, there could NOT POSSIBLY be additional Dune
books after Frank died. I don't care if the Bard himself tried to pen one;
it just can't happen. The only place the Duniverse existed was in Frank
Herbert's remarkable mind. I see each of the six novels as but a glimpse
into that Universe. If you buy that logic, then no one can ever again write
a Dune story that is canon. NO ONE! Notes do not a novel make. Slapping the
name "Dune" on the cover does not a Dune story make. Being the son of the
author does not a Dune story make. Are you beginning to see my point?
The DE is -- again, just my opinion here -- in a different category. Frank
authorized the idea and was adamant that only one person could get the job
done properly -- Dr. Willis E. McNelly. Is it canon? Hell, I don't really
know. I guess I consider it somewhere in-between: It isn't as authorative as
the DC, but it rates many a lick higher than HA.
--
Best regards,
John
This sad little lizard told me that he was a brontosaurus on his mother's
side. I did not laugh; people who boast of ancestry often have little else
to sustain them. Humoring them costs nothing and adds to happiness in a
world in which happiness is always in short supply.
--- Robert Heinlein
Gunnar Harboe
Keith Falkner wrote in message ...
<snip>
>Brian Herbert says that HE is in charge of what is canon and what is not
and
>the books he has written or will write are all canon.
>
>My dog Russet has 4 legs and a tail. If *I* call his tail a leg, Russet
>still HAS only 4 legs, no matter what *I* say.
I have never agreed with that saying. Words are defined by convention, and
if we decide to understand "leg" in such a way that a tail is a leg, then
your dog has five legs. Words do not contain any meaning except what we
assign to them.
Not that it matters...
Bye!
Gunnar Harboe
g.ha...@ah.telia.no
___
The alt.fan.dune FAQ:
<http://jkenny.home.mindspring.com/DuneFAQIndex.html>
<http://www.faqs.org/faqs/sf/dune-faq/>
<ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/alt.fan.dune/>
<mail-...@rtfm.mit.edu>
with a body of "send pub/faqs/sf/dune-faq"
___
There should be a word-tension for "fated," conveying a
meaning opposite from a thing destined to be. There
should also be a garnish-tension for "parsley," denoting
the opposite of the leafy herb. Oh, we speak in daily
discourse of "anti-parsley," but that is another thing entire.
What the word for a thing is can consequent much.
- from "Mauve'Bib Has Ideas and Speaks Them,"
edited by the Princess Serutan
>If you want to know what *I* think of BH, go mosey down to the sligsty and
Samuel Sands
Gunnar Harboe wrote:
> Dear Elizabeth,
>
> Keith Falkner wrote in message ...
> <snip>
> >Brian Herbert says that HE is in charge of what is canon and what is not
> and
> >the books he has written or will write are all canon.
> >
> >My dog Russet has 4 legs and a tail. If *I* call his tail a leg, Russet
> >still HAS only 4 legs, no matter what *I* say.
>
> I have never agreed with that saying. Words are defined by convention, and
> if we decide to understand "leg" in such a way that a tail is a leg, then
> your dog has five legs. Words do not contain any meaning except what we
> assign to them.
>
> Not that it matters...
Actually, it matters a lot. Language can be inclusive or exclusive. If you
follow generally accepted conventions, then a leg is a leg. A leg only becomes
a tail when you use it in an exclusive way, rather than an inclusive way, much
like a secret language/code that purposely becomes a means to exclude. I think
the convention that Elizabeth sets forth is a good one, although I understand
your point. However, the story of the Tower of Babel is germane here. Without
language rules & conventions, we cannot adequately put forth our ideas. I
wouldn't think of going into an Non Dune newsgroup and casually use Gom Jabbar
and expect to have people appreciate my point without expecting to explain the
term and how its use is demonstrative of what I'm trying to convey. I'm not
knocking exclusive language, i.e. calling a tail a leg. Sometimes exclusive
language can be good within a set group to promote brotherhood or a feeling of
inclusion, albeit in a smaller forum. I'm stopping here before I dig my hole
further. :^)
Sam (Who knows his _____ from a hole in the ground) Sands
>
>
> Bye!
> Gunnar Harboe
> g.ha...@ah.telia.no
> ___
> The alt.fan.dune FAQ:
> <http://jkenny.home.mindspring.com/DuneFAQIndex.html>
> <http://www.faqs.org/faqs/sf/dune-faq/>
> <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/alt.fan.dune/>
> <mail-...@rtfm.mit.edu>
> with a body of "send pub/faqs/sf/dune-faq"
> ___
> There should be a word-tension for "fated," conveying a
> meaning opposite from a thing destined to be. There
> should also be a garnish-tension for "parsley," denoting
> the opposite of the leafy herb. Oh, we speak in daily
> discourse of "anti-parsley," but that is another thing entire.
> What the word for a thing is can consequent much.
> - from "Mauve'Bib Has Ideas and Speaks Them,"
> edited by the Princess Serutan
>
Richard
>
>
> Gunnar Harboe wrote:
>
> > Dear Elizabeth,
> >
> > <snip>
> > Gunnar Harboe
> > g.ha...@ah.telia.no
> > ___
> > The alt.fan.dune FAQ:
> > <http://jkenny.home.mindspring.com/DuneFAQIndex.html>
> > <http://www.faqs.org/faqs/sf/dune-faq/>
> > <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/alt.fan.dune/>
> > <mail-...@rtfm.mit.edu>
> > with a body of "send pub/faqs/sf/dune-faq"
> > ___
> > There should be a word-tension for "fated," conveying a
> > meaning opposite from a thing destined to be. There
> > should also be a garnish-tension for "parsley," denoting
> > the opposite of the leafy herb. Oh, we speak in daily
> > discourse of "anti-parsley," but that is another thing entire.
> > What the word for a thing is can consequent much.
> > - from "Mauve'Bib Has Ideas and Speaks Them,"
> > edited by the Princess Serutan
> >
and
> > >take a peek at the floor. The sty is full of it, and so is BH.
> > >
> > >Elizabeth
>
All that, and I think the general point is that no matter what word is used
and what meaning is assigned to it, reality doesn't change to accommodate
our current linguistic opinions. Calling an apple a pear won't cause it to
spontaneously change into a pear, though the sounds and symbols used to
describe it may change. It's physical reality stays the same.
--
Yrs,
Richard
My Web Page:
http://members.xoom.com/gigiloaunt/
Vote Libertarian. Please visit:
http://www.HarryBrowne2000.org/
and
http://www.lp.org/