Paul Jamis
Tony
Stoned in Arrakeen
> Why was it so important for Paul to be barefoot when he fought Jamis?
Practicality, Tones. He was in his pants, remember. I don't know how it
is with you, but every time I take my stillsuit off it's a bastard
trying to get the legs over my boots. Best to just take 'em off first.
It would then be very silly indeed to put the boots back on.
Particularly when wearing only pants.
Raveem
unfamiliar surface, the trust that bare feet provide is best.
Raveem.
Tony
> The reason is explicitly given in the book: when fighting on an
> unfamiliar surface, the trust that bare feet provide is best.
>
> Raveem.
Hi Raveem,
But I wonder if that's really true, in general, or was it part of Paul's
unique science fiction fighting style.
Raveem
reality due to the pervading influence and tactics concerned with
shields, this was, I felt, a (amongst others) common sense point in
the book. Of course I have no experience in wrestling/fighting/
duelling so have no idea how valid such a supposition is...
Raveem.
Stoned in Arrakeen
>
>> The reason is explicitly given in the book: when fighting on an
>> unfamiliar surface, the trust that bare feet provide is best.
>> Raveem.
>
> Hi Raveem,
> But I wonder if that's really true, in general,
On the whole, I'd say no, as it all really depends on the ground. Bare
feet are fine on surfaces that are safe, but go shoeless on a field of
combat that features discarded razor blades and broken glass on the
floor and you're in deep shite. Of course, you'd want to keep your shoes
on in deep shite as well. And maybe wear lots of 'eazy-kleen' clothing.
> or was it part of Paul's unique science fiction fighting style.
That's it. A unique science fiction fighting style that was taught to
him by the Dunc. The fighting trunks were another of Idaho's ideas. They
served to bewilder the opponent long enough for the expert practitioner
to get a good thrust in.
Freakzilla
> Why was it so important for Paul to be barefoot when he fought Jamis?
Ever seen a karate dojo full of students with shoes on?
Tony
"Freakzilla" <jl...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:
On Oct 28, 5:50 pm, "Tony" <t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Why was it so important for Paul to be barefoot when he fought Jamis?
Ever seen a karate dojo full of students with shoes on?
Hi Freakzilla,
While it's true karate students don't wear shoes: boxers, wrestlers, and
fencers do. However, the match between Paul and Jamis was a knife fight.
Do we have any experts on knife fighting out there who can tell us if knife
fighters think it's desirable to fight without shoes on?
Stoned in Arrakeen
>
> "Freakzilla" <jl...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:
> On Oct 28, 5:50 pm, "Tony" <t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Why was it so important for Paul to be barefoot when he fought Jamis?
>
> Ever seen a karate dojo full of students with shoes on?
>
> Hi Freakzilla,
> While it's true karate students don't wear shoes: boxers, wrestlers, and fencers do.
And florists. I've never seen a shoeless florist, though I'm sure they
exist.
> However, the match between Paul and Jamis was a knife fight.
> Do we have any experts on knife fighting out there who can
> tell us if knife fighters think it's desirable to fight without shoes on?
Y'see, the problem with that, Tones, is that any expert on knife
fighting who says "shoes must be off during combat" may very well be
contradicted by another who says "bollocks. Shoes must remain on. Bare
feet are silly". Personally, I'd just shoot my opponent, with one shoe
on and one off just to confuse everyone and then run like the clappers
and deny everything.
Giovanni Wassen
>
>> The reason is explicitly given in the book: when fighting on an
>> unfamiliar surface, the trust that bare feet provide is best.
>
> But I wonder if that's really true, in general, or was it part of Paul's
> unique science fiction fighting style.
Well, an unfamiliar surface covered with broken glass could be an exception
off course.
--
Gio
http://blog.watkijkikoptv.info
http://myanimelist.net/profile/extatix
Sam Sands
Giovanni Wassen wrote:
> "Tony" <to...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>The reason is explicitly given in the book: when fighting on an
>>>unfamiliar surface, the trust that bare feet provide is best.
>>
>>But I wonder if that's really true, in general, or was it part of Paul's
>>unique science fiction fighting style.
>
>
> Well, an unfamiliar surface covered with broken glass could be an exception
> off course.
Unless it is a science fiction novel wherein one or more of the
combatants get energy from the absorption of hardened shards.
Sam
>
Giovanni Wassen
Freakzilla
The combatants are inside a sietch. I think we can assume there is
nothing on the floor other than a little sand or dust fallen from the
people who just came in from the open desert. I say that because dust
inside means moisture is leaking out and is an indicator of a bad
doorseal. This is a proper Fremen sietch and I think it safe to
assume their doorseal is in working order. Also, Fremen seem to
cherish their glass, see Farok's red bottle and Chani's collection of
her mother's jars of herbal remedies.
Stoned in Arrakeen
> On Oct 31, 9:18 am, Giovanni Wassen <exta...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Sam Sands <wild_monksh...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> The reason is explicitly given in the book: when fighting on an
>>>>>> unfamiliar surface, the trust that bare feet provide is best.
>>>>> But I wonder if that's really true, in general, or was it part of
>>>>> Paul's unique science fiction fighting style.
>>>> Well, an unfamiliar surface covered with broken glass could be an
>>>> exception off course.
>>> Unless it is a science fiction novel wherein one or more of the
>>> combatants get energy from the absorption of hardened shards.
>> We've seen stranger things happen :)
>>
>
> The combatants are inside a sietch. I think we can assume there is
> nothing on the floor other than a little sand or dust fallen from the
> people who just came in from the open desert. I say that because dust
> inside means moisture is leaking out and is an indicator of a bad
> doorseal. This is a proper Fremen sietch and I think it safe to
> assume their doorseal is in working order.
Tones could be saying that it's the sand that is the problem, though.
Nasty stuff, sand. Gets everywhere. And it's sharp. Bare feet are
particularly sensitive to its abrasive, potentially lethal properties.
I'm beginning to agree with Tonesy - those guys were fools to risk their
lives. One, or both of them, could have got hurt in that debacle, all
because Paul listened to that spice-beer crazed Idaho.
> Also, Fremen seem to cherish their glass, see Farok's red bottle
> and Chani's collection of her mother's jars of herbal remedies.
And let's not forget 'chukka under glass'. Delicious, though it makes me
spew.
SandChigger
out of?
Or do you think he is perhaps writing one?!
Tony
"SandChigger" <sandc...@mac.com> wrote in message news:
> Is there a book of Dune trivial that Tony is getting these questions
> out of?
>
> Or do you think he is perhaps writing one?!
I don't think anyone needs a special book to come up with discussion
questions. Anything can become a discussion question. Just name any Dune
topic and we can turn it into a discussion question. ;-)
Stoned in Arrakeen
Quite right, Tones. You tell him. I'm with you 100% on this one. To get
into the spirit of your "anything goes" theory, here's one from me. In
the scene where Paul and Jessica are rescued by Idaho and Kynes and
taken to the testing-station, the following dialogue takes place .......
"Your father lies dead in the ruins of Arrakeen," Kynes said. "You are
technically the Duke."
"I'm a soldier of the Imperium," Paul said, "technically a hatchetman."
Was Paul seriously suggesting that he was nothing more than a common
lumberjack?
Raveem
nest where being a tragic but hip young victim is enough to sway even
the most pragmatic of characters, Herbert wasn't afraid to have Paul
stake his claim properly, including the fount of honour, which
happened to be the enemy of the Fremen.
Raveem.
Stoned in Arrakeen
I like it myself. I'm mostly interested in the way that Herbert
showcases the feudalistic implications of the Dune universe in this
whole post-death-of-Leto event. Not only Paul, but everyone around him
(in fact everyone, period) knows that he is now the "rightful" leader
and owner of Arrakis and that it is expected of him to use whatever
means are necessary to attain supremacy. Enlightened selfishness and the
use of treachery and extreme violence are justifiable and "normal"
traits in a feudal society, giving new meaning to the phrase "we're just
improving our means". The constant struggle between "King" and "Barons"
.............. you see it all the time in Scottish history, for
instance. Stirring stuff. Not the most pleasant people, really.
Raveem
spelled out that Paul basically had two options after Leto died and he
was just starting to integrate himself into the Fremen (just before
the knife fight) and had foreshadowings of the Jihad:
i) Withdraw and live a life of obscurity as a commoner. No Jihad.
ii) Fight for his position in the feudal order and unleash the Jihad.
Well we all know where that ended: given, as Leto later stated, the
breeding which imparted "an intense and overweening lust for the
acquisition and use of power" (or words to that effect) imparted to
the Atreides, Paul preferred the deaths of millions and kingship to
obscurity. Of course it wasn't all bad though: the Atreides did shake
things up a fair bit!
My one regret after Dune ended was that the old feudal order which had
competing parties (Harkonnens, Corrinos, Atreides, etc.) each vying
for power was gone. From thence onwards, it was an Atreides universe.
The interplay between forces of almost equal power which made Dune
interesting and, indeed, unique amongst the rest of the series, was
over.
Raveem.
Fred
> Scottish history .... Not the most pleasant people, really.
Hey now! That's my heritage you are talking about there!
--
Fred
Stoned in Arrakeen
> Stoned in Arrakeen said (well, he didn't, actually........)
>
>> Scottish history .... Not the most pleasant people, really.
>
> Hey now!
Hey! Wow!
> That's my heritage you are talking about there!
I *am* Scots. And that's my quote you've mangled there!
Fred
> Fred took stuff out of context on 05/11/2008 02:37:
> > Stoned in Arrakeen said (well, he didn't, actually........)
> >
> >> Scottish history .... Not the most pleasant people, really.
> >
> > Hey now!
>
> Hey! Wow!
>
> > That's my heritage you are talking about there!
>
> I am Scots. And that's my quote you've mangled there!
hee hee ... <bg>
--
Fred
Tony
"Raveem" <rav...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c1c6e32b-b931-483a...@c2g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
> Indeed. There was a discussion either here or on Jacurutu which
> spelled out that Paul basically had two options after Leto died and he
> was just starting to integrate himself into the Fremen (just before
> the knife fight) and had foreshadowings of the Jihad:
>
> i) Withdraw and live a life of obscurity as a commoner. No Jihad.
>
> ii) Fight for his position in the feudal order and unleash the Jihad.
>
> Well we all know where that ended: given, as Leto later stated, the
> breeding which imparted "an intense and overweening lust for the
> acquisition and use of power" (or words to that effect) imparted to
> the Atreides, Paul preferred the deaths of millions and kingship to
> obscurity.
Hi Raveem,
I think you're overstating the case here. Paul continued to strive against
the Jihad thoughout the novel Dune. It turned out that he caused a Jihad,
but it was never clear to Paul that the Jihad would be an inevitable
consequence to his fighting for his position within the feudal order. And
it was never clear to readers of Dune. How many readers assumed there would
be a Jihad after the events in the novel Dune took place?
> Of course it wasn't all bad though: the Atreides did shake
> things up a fair bit!
>
> My one regret after Dune ended was that the old feudal order which had
> competing parties (Harkonnens, Corrinos, Atreides, etc.) each vying
> for power was gone. From thence onwards, it was an Atreides universe.
> The interplay between forces of almost equal power which made Dune
> interesting and, indeed, unique amongst the rest of the series, was
> over.
>
I agree that this was something that made the novel Dune very good.
Stoned in Arrakeen
>
> "Raveem" <rav...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:c1c6e32b-b931-483a...@c2g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>> Indeed. There was a discussion either here or on Jacurutu which
>> spelled out that Paul basically had two options after Leto died and he
>> was just starting to integrate himself into the Fremen (just before
>> the knife fight) and had foreshadowings of the Jihad:
>> i) Withdraw and live a life of obscurity as a commoner. No Jihad.
>> ii) Fight for his position in the feudal order and unleash the Jihad.
>> Well we all know where that ended: given, as Leto later stated, the
>> breeding which imparted "an intense and overweening lust for the
>> acquisition and use of power" (or words to that effect) imparted to
>> the Atreides, Paul preferred the deaths of millions and kingship to
>> obscurity.
>
> Hi Raveem,
> I think you're overstating the case here. Paul continued to strive
> against the Jihad thoughout the novel Dune. It turned out that he
> caused a Jihad, but it was never clear to Paul that the Jihad would be
> an inevitable consequence to his fighting for his position within the
> feudal order. And it was never clear to readers of Dune. How many
> readers assumed there would be a Jihad after the events in the novel
> Dune took place?
>
Are you serious, Tones? I assumed it the moment the Fremen started
chanting "Mahdi" on the first day. Blind man could have seen it.
Freakzilla
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yeah, it seemed inevitable.
Here's is the main branching of futures Paul faced:
He had seen two main branchings along the way ahead--in one he
confronted an
evil old Baron and said: "Hello, Grandfather." The thought of that
path and what
lay along it sickened him.
The other path held long patches of grey obscurity except for peaks of
violence. He had seen a warrior religion there, a fire spreading
across the
universe with the Atreides green and black banner waving at the head
of fanatic
legions drunk on spice liquor. Gurney Halleck and a few others of his
father's
men--a pitiful few--were among them, all marked by the hawk symbol
from the
shrine of his father's skull.
"I can't go that way," he muttered. "That's what the old witches of
your
schools really want."
"I don't understand you, Paul," his mother said.
He remained silent, thinking like the seed he was, thinking with the
race
consciousness he had first experienced as terrible purpose. He found
that he no
longer could hate the Bene Gesserit or the Emperor or even the
Harkonnens. They
were all caught up in the need of their race to renew its scattered
inheritance,
to cross and mingle and infuse their bloodlines in a great new pooling
of genes.
And the race knew only one sure way for this--the ancient way, the
tried and
certain way that rolled over everything in its path: jihad.
Surely, I cannot choose that way, he thought.
But he saw again in his mind's eye the shrine of his father's skull
and the
violence with the green and black banner waving in its midst.
The choice is Jihad or surrender. As a noble, uncounted deaths are
more acceptable to disgracing his Great House.
Tony
"Yeah, it seemed inevitable.
Hi Freakzilla,
Are you saying that Gurney Halleck participated in the Jihad?
Freakzilla
>
> - Show quoted text -
I'm only saying that the Jihad was inevitable due to "race
consciousness" and Paul didn't "cause" it.
In EVERY Vision Paul had the Jihad remained, no matter how hard he
tried to avoid it.
Stoned in Arrakeen
>
> "Freakzilla" <jl...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:d889da16-0144-4518...@1g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
> "He had seen a warrior religion there, a fire spreading across the
> universe with the Atreides green and black banner waving at the head
> of fanatic legions drunk on spice liquor.
> Gurney Halleck and a few others of his father's men--a pitiful few--were among
> them, all marked by the hawk symbol from the shrine of his father's skull."
>
> Hi Freakzilla,
> Are you saying that Gurney Halleck participated in the Jihad?
>
Earth calling Tony! Come in, please!
Juho Julkunen
@z6g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, jl...@comcast.net says...
No it didn't. For example, the other path in the vision you quoted.
> no matter how hard he
> tried to avoid it.
But he didn't try to avoid it. Every time he thought he had a choice he
chose the path that led towards Jihad.
--
Juho Julkunen