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BH Interview Excerpts...

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Samuel Sands

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Oct 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/2/99
to
From Barnes & Nobles publication Explorations interview with Brian
Herbert entitled, "Add a Little Spice to Your Life!"

These are excerpts that I think the readers here may find interesting. I
reserve my comments for later.

JK: "How extensive were the files your father left and what did they
contain?"

BH: "Notes were located in long-lost safety deposit boxes, university
archives, and dusty storage rooms... more than 1,300 pages in all. In
the writing of Dune: House Atreides, we referred to these notes
constantly." ..."In such a beloved, highly regarded realm, we needed to
make certain we were getting our facts straight."

JK: "What kind of surprises do you have in mind for the rest of the
trilogy?"

BH: "Readers are going to learn a lot more about the spice melange,
culminating in epic events that will shake the Dune universe to its
core. The surprising identity of Jessica's mother will be revealed,
along with the incredible events concerning the birth of Jessica's son,
the legendary Paul Atreides."


John Kenny

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Oct 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/2/99
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Gang,

As usual....

Samuel Sands <ssa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:37F6851C...@bellsouth.net...


> From Barnes & Nobles publication Explorations interview with Brian
> Herbert entitled, "Add a Little Spice to Your Life!"
>
> These are excerpts that I think the readers here may find interesting. I
> reserve my comments for later.
>
> JK: "How extensive were the files your father left and what did they
> contain?"

"Gods above the Oriental mind..." this "JK" ain't me. Darth Kenny (ha ha
Balder!) would have crucified Mr. Herbert using nothing but the material
released as chapters one and two.

>
> BH: "Notes were located in long-lost safety deposit boxes, university

How the *&$% can deposit boxes be "lost"? Someone? ANYONE?

> archives, and dusty storage rooms... more than 1,300 pages in all. In
> the writing of Dune: House Atreides, we referred to these notes
> constantly." ..."In such a beloved, highly regarded realm, we needed to
> make certain we were getting our facts straight."
>
> JK: "What kind of surprises do you have in mind for the rest of the
> trilogy?"
>
> BH: "Readers are going to learn a lot more about the spice melange,
> culminating in epic events that will shake the Dune universe to its
> core. The surprising identity of Jessica's mother will be revealed,
> along with the incredible events concerning the birth of Jessica's son,
> the legendary Paul Atreides."
>

Oh, how I want to speak my mind on that last bit! I shall remain silent
until the sixth of this month, not a day longer! On that day the gloves come
off.

John

Samuel Sands

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Oct 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/2/99
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Sakki wrote:

> Samuel Sands wrote:
> <snippers>

> > core. The surprising identity of Jessica's mother will be revealed,
> > along with the incredible events concerning the birth of Jessica's son,
> > the legendary Paul Atreides."
>

> I know I can't wait to see how RM Gaius Helen Mohiam becomes Jessica's
> mother... Seriously, is there anyone else in Dune that is even a remote
> possibility? (Or will we be introduced to a Princess Leah (cheap knock
> off) who is Shaddam's long lost sister?)

Maybe it's a female Guild Navigator. Or the Shadout Mapes. :^)

Sam (don't put anything past 'em) Sands

>
>
> -- Sakki


Samuel Sands

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Oct 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/2/99
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From the same interview...

"This complex substance enables the Guild Navigators to fold space; it
prolongs life; it is of religious significance to the Fremen and the Bene
Gesserit;...."

The B.G. were not a religious organization and the melange had no
religious significance to them. Sure they used it, just like they used
religion to manipulate, but it cannot be said that it was religiously
significant to the B.G. in the same example/sentence of how it was to the
Fremen. Sheesh.

Sam (sheesh fish speakers) Sands

<snip>


Balder

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
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On Sat, 2 Oct 1999 20:53:07 -0400, "John Kenny" <jke...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>Gang,
>
>As usual....
>
>Samuel Sands <ssa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>news:37F6851C...@bellsouth.net...
>> From Barnes & Nobles publication Explorations interview with Brian
>> Herbert entitled, "Add a Little Spice to Your Life!"
>>
>> These are excerpts that I think the readers here may find interesting. I
>> reserve my comments for later.
>>
>> JK: "How extensive were the files your father left and what did they
>> contain?"
>
>"Gods above the Oriental mind..." this "JK" ain't me. Darth Kenny (ha ha
>Balder!)


See - it wasn't so hard, now was it? ;-)


-Balder (not quite sure if that was an insult)

"'But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: 'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad.'
'How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
'You must be,' said the Cat, 'or you wouldn't have come here.'"

Lewis Carroll
'Alice's Adventures in Wonderland'

> would have crucified Mr. Herbert using nothing but the material
>released as chapters one and two.
>
>>
>> BH: "Notes were located in long-lost safety deposit boxes, university
>
>How the *&$% can deposit boxes be "lost"? Someone? ANYONE?
>
>> archives, and dusty storage rooms... more than 1,300 pages in all. In
>> the writing of Dune: House Atreides, we referred to these notes
>> constantly." ..."In such a beloved, highly regarded realm, we needed to
>> make certain we were getting our facts straight."
>>
>> JK: "What kind of surprises do you have in mind for the rest of the
>> trilogy?"
>>
>> BH: "Readers are going to learn a lot more about the spice melange,
>> culminating in epic events that will shake the Dune universe to its

>> core. The surprising identity of Jessica's mother will be revealed,
>> along with the incredible events concerning the birth of Jessica's son,
>> the legendary Paul Atreides."
>>
>

Balder

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
to

Must kill BH... Must destroy... D1:TFM... I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer...


-Balder (almost joking)

"'But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: 'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad.'
'How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
'You must be,' said the Cat, 'or you wouldn't have come here.'"

Lewis Carroll
'Alice's Adventures in Wonderland'

><snip>


Chris Mears

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
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On Sat, 2 Oct 1999 20:53:07 -0400, "John Kenny"
<jke...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>Samuel Sands <ssa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>news:37F6851C...@bellsouth.net...
>
>>

>> BH: "Notes were located in long-lost safety deposit boxes, university
>
>How the *&$% can deposit boxes be "lost"? Someone? ANYONE?
>

These *lost* deposit boxes hardly seem very "safe", do they?


--

Chris Mears
"I was an athiest, until I found out I was God" - Paul Atreides

Samuel Sands

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
to
From the same Interview...

JK: "Did you achieve what you had hoped for with this first book?"

BH: "Absolutely. We wanted Dune: House Atreides to be as rich and varied as
a Dune book should be, giving it the look, feel and depth of a book Frank
Herbert might have written himself. It needed to be filled with interesting
characters, Machiavellian schemes and plot twists. It needed to include
everything a Dune fan would be looking for."

<snip>


Ryan Newell

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
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On Sat, 02 Oct 1999 21:50:25 -0400, Samuel Sands
<ssa...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> The B.G. were not a religious organization and the melange had no
>religious significance to them. Sure they used it, just like they used
>religion to manipulate, but it cannot be said that it was religiously
>significant to the B.G. in the same example/sentence of how it was to the
>Fremen. Sheesh.

BUT melange IS religiously significant to the BG. Not in the same way
as the Fremen, but why should BH give away any stuff like that to
people who haven't yet read the book?? Melange is important to both,
and both realise its religious significance (sheesh it takes a lot of
letters to type those words <g>) just in different ways... is there
really a need for BH to explain the differences ?? I thought that was
up to the readers... I await someone telling me that the BG are not a
secret to hide from people who haven't yet read Dune...

Ryan

Samuel Sands

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
to

Ryan Newell wrote:

He isn't comparing and contrasting in that sentence. I think that most
people reading that would assume that the B.G. used Melange as part of a
religious worship/ritual. I'm not so sure that BH knows the difference either,
despite your valiant defense. :^)

Sam (who knows the difference) Sands

>
>
> Ryan


Ryan Newell

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
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On Sat, 2 Oct 1999 20:53:07 -0400, "John Kenny"
<jke...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>How the *&$% can deposit boxes be "lost"? Someone? ANYONE?

Or even be "long lost" :-)

But seriously, WWII veterans have sent postcards/parcels/etc to loved
ones back home, and the parcels/postcards/etc have never made it home
until a long time later... and example is some daughter receiving a
package addressed to her dead mother from her dead father just
recently in New Zealand. The package was "found" in England and
returned ASAP.

Ryan

Hitch

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
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CODSWALLOP!!!!

The BG never - NEVER - contemplated the melange as "religious." That is
pure specious excrement.

Hitch

Samuel Sands wrote in message <37F6F9D2...@bellsouth.net>...

Hitch

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
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AAAAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! "Machiavellian?" "Plot Twists?" What a
bloody laugh.

Hitch

Samuel Sands wrote in message <37F6D742...@bellsouth.net>...

Kathryn

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
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I think that package was a message in a bottle found somewhere in the
English Channel or something...

which is slightly different to misplaced mail :)

Kate

Ryan Newell wrote in message <37fdf7aa...@news.xtra.co.nz>...

GigiloAunt

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
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>But seriously, WWII veterans have sent postcards/parcels/etc to loved
ones back home, and the parcels/postcards/etc have never made it home
until a long time later... and example is some daughter receiving a
package addressed to her dead mother from her dead father just
recently in New Zealand. The package was "found" in England and
returned ASAP.<
>Ryan Newell

Yes, but 1300 pages of lost notes? Why the hell were they scattered about so
badly? And, as has been said, how the hell do you lose a safety deposit box?
I don' think the existence of notes is out of the question, but from the little
quote from BH it just seems so damn fortuitous and ridiculous.


Rich
"While it is true that an inherently free and scrupulous person may be
destroyed, such an individual can never be enslaved or used as a blind tool."
Albert Einstein
-Vote Libertarian
To email me remove 'spambloc' from my email address.

Kynes

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
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"Ryan Newell" <ifyouk...@email.me.there> wrote in message news:37fcf68a...@news.xtra.co.nz...

> On Sat, 02 Oct 1999 21:50:25 -0400, Samuel Sands
> <ssa...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > The B.G. were not a religious organization and the melange had no
> >religious significance to them. Sure they used it, just like they used
> >religion to manipulate, but it cannot be said that it was religiously
> >significant to the B.G. in the same example/sentence of how it was to the
> >Fremen. Sheesh.
>
> BUT melange IS religiously significant to the BG. Not in the same way
> as the Fremen, but why should BH give away any stuff like that to
> people who haven't yet read the book?? Melange is important to both,
> and both realise its religious significance (sheesh it takes a lot of
> letters to type those words <g>) just in different ways... is there
> really a need for BH to explain the differences ?? I thought that was
> up to the readers... I await someone telling me that the BG are not a
> secret to hide from people who haven't yet read Dune...

Nothing is religiously significant to the BG. They're not a religious
organization! This much should be obvious; that's like saying something
is gynecologically significant to me, a male.

Glazing it over with "they both realize its religious significance" is
not the same thing as what was written. If something is to be significant
in a sense to someone, they have to already hold that sense as a core
belief/value... otherwise, why would they care about the minutae or
small aspects of it?

Stop splitting hairs. This is an obvious error.
--
-LK!
[ ky...@choam.org ] [ ICQ: 795238 ] [ AIM: Kynes23 ]

Kynes

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
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"Ryan Newell" <ifyouk...@email.me.there> wrote in message news:37fdf7aa...@news.xtra.co.nz...

> On Sat, 2 Oct 1999 20:53:07 -0400, "John Kenny"
> <jke...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >How the *&$% can deposit boxes be "lost"? Someone? ANYONE?
>
> Or even be "long lost" :-)
>
> But seriously, WWII veterans have sent postcards/parcels/etc to loved
> ones back home, and the parcels/postcards/etc have never made it home
> until a long time later... and example is some daughter receiving a
> package addressed to her dead mother from her dead father just
> recently in New Zealand. The package was "found" in England and
> returned ASAP.

Red herring. Mail is not a deposit box. The entire purpose of a deposit
box is that it never goes anywhere -- it stays at the bank, ready to
be retreived when you need it. Why was it lost? Who was moving it? It's
just a bunch of nonsense put out by BH/KJA to promote their book as
"official," I think.

Samuel Sands

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
to

Kynes wrote:

Well, to be fair, a safety deposit box contents could be *lost* in the sense of not being known that
it was utilized, depending on how the original renter, here F.H., set up the paperwork. However, I would
assume that, upon his death, his estate would be apprised of its existence, even if F.H. had kept silent
about its existence.

Sam Sands

Kynes

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
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"Samuel Sands" <ssa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:37F798DE...@bellsouth.net...

> Well, to be fair, a safety deposit box contents could be *lost* in the
> sense of not being known that it was utilized, depending on how the original renter,
> here F.H., set up the paperwork. However, I would assume that, upon his death, his
> estate would be apprised of its existence, even if F.H. had kept silent
> about its existence.

That's true, I suppose. Still, I think the whole story is a little fishy... I
don't have a problem with FH having notes about Dune 7 or even background notes
on the existing DC. I just think that BH and KJA have probably exaggerated the
extent of these notes.

J McNutt

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
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Hi Sam!

I agree... the safety deposit box thing sounds fishy. Even if Frank's
Estate didn't retrieve the box, the bank would be looking to someone for the
annual fee on the box. It is true that each state usually has a statute on
the books whereby boxes are considered "abandoned" after so much time of
inactivity, and the contents of such a "lost" box might be returned to next
of kin. But Frank's box couldn't have been "found" only recently. I mean,
come on, Frank died when? in 1986? no way is a bank going to "bank roll"
the box that long with a customer payment. And I doubt that the box could
remain inactive that long without reverting to the State. Something "ain't"
jiving here.

Samuel Sands <ssa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:37F798DE...@bellsouth.net...
>
>

> Kynes wrote:
>
> > "Ryan Newell" <ifyouk...@email.me.there> wrote in message
news:37fdf7aa...@news.xtra.co.nz...
> > > On Sat, 2 Oct 1999 20:53:07 -0400, "John Kenny"
> > > <jke...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >How the *&$% can deposit boxes be "lost"? Someone? ANYONE?
> > >
> > > Or even be "long lost" :-)
> > >
> > > But seriously, WWII veterans have sent postcards/parcels/etc to loved
> > > ones back home, and the parcels/postcards/etc have never made it home
> > > until a long time later... and example is some daughter receiving a
> > > package addressed to her dead mother from her dead father just
> > > recently in New Zealand. The package was "found" in England and
> > > returned ASAP.
> >
> > Red herring. Mail is not a deposit box. The entire purpose of a deposit
> > box is that it never goes anywhere -- it stays at the bank, ready to
> > be retreived when you need it. Why was it lost? Who was moving it? It's
> > just a bunch of nonsense put out by BH/KJA to promote their book as
> > "official," I think.
>

> Well, to be fair, a safety deposit box contents could be *lost* in the
sense of not being known that
> it was utilized, depending on how the original renter, here F.H., set up
the paperwork. However, I would
> assume that, upon his death, his estate would be apprised of its
existence, even if F.H. had kept silent
> about its existence.
>

> Sam Sands

John Kenny

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
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Kynes <ky...@choam.org> wrote in message
news:BdOJ3.8121$QH.7...@news1.rdc2.tx.home.com...

> "Samuel Sands" <ssa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:37F798DE...@bellsouth.net...
>
> > Well, to be fair, a safety deposit box contents could be *lost* in
the
> > sense of not being known that it was utilized, depending on how the
original renter,
> > here F.H., set up the paperwork. However, I would assume that, upon his
death, his
> > estate would be apprised of its existence, even if F.H. had kept silent
> > about its existence.
>
> That's true, I suppose. Still, I think the whole story is a little
fishy... I
> don't have a problem with FH having notes about Dune 7 or even background
notes
> on the existing DC. I just think that BH and KJA have probably exaggerated
the
> extent of these notes.
> --
> -LK!
> [ ky...@choam.org ] [ ICQ: 795238 ] [ AIM: Kynes23 ]

Gang,

Since we've gotten several new members lately, let me re-state some
observations on this whole topic. Herbert and Anderson say they have these
notes. Okay, I guess I've got to believe them. However, why would Frank have
locked his notes in a safety deposit box in the first place? What POSSIBLE
reason could he have had? Only one thing seems logical: He was afraid
someone would steal them. But to what end would a thief benefit? The
Chronicles are some of the most recognizable books in modern American
literature; no publisher would get within a country mile of releasing them,
or a new book based on characters from the Duniverse. Now, in the age of the
Internet, I might understand this type of fear. A housekeeper might steal a
few pages and send to some rabid Dune Buggy for posting on the Net. That
type of thing is rather difficult to stop. Consider that by January
everything about SW:PM was known.

Just something to think about.


--
Best regards,
John

To be "matter of fact" about the world is to blunder into fantasy -- and
dull fantasy at that, as the real world is strange and wonderful.
-- Robert Heinlein


Jeffrey MacHott

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
to

J McNutt wrote in message <7t8g44$li2$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...

>Hi Sam!
>
>I agree... the safety deposit box thing sounds fishy. Even if Frank's
>Estate didn't retrieve the box, the bank would be looking to someone for
the
>annual fee on the box. It is true that each state usually has a statute on
>the books whereby boxes are considered "abandoned" after so much time of
>inactivity, and the contents of such a "lost" box might be returned to next
>of kin. But Frank's box couldn't have been "found" only recently. I mean,
>come on, Frank died when? in 1986? no way is a bank going to "bank roll"
>the box that long with a customer payment. And I doubt that the box could
>remain inactive that long without reverting to the State. Something
"ain't"
>jiving here.
>

Maybe F. Herbert set up an annual payment of Melange to the bank to keep the
existence of the saftey deposit boxes hidden... wait, now that sounds like
something I read somewhere in a book :*)

But seriously, I'm starting to take everything BH and KJA say with a rather
generous grain of salt :*/

--Ragu Leader

"Unfortunately you have reached tech support" --Electronic Arts Tech Support


>Samuel Sands <ssa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>news:37F798DE...@bellsouth.net...
>>
>>

>> Kynes wrote:
>>
>> > "Ryan Newell" <ifyouk...@email.me.there> wrote in message
>news:37fdf7aa...@news.xtra.co.nz...
>> > > On Sat, 2 Oct 1999 20:53:07 -0400, "John Kenny"
>> > > <jke...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >How the *&$% can deposit boxes be "lost"? Someone? ANYONE?
>> > >
>> > > Or even be "long lost" :-)
>> > >
>> > > But seriously, WWII veterans have sent postcards/parcels/etc to loved
>> > > ones back home, and the parcels/postcards/etc have never made it home
>> > > until a long time later... and example is some daughter receiving a
>> > > package addressed to her dead mother from her dead father just
>> > > recently in New Zealand. The package was "found" in England and
>> > > returned ASAP.
>> >
>> > Red herring. Mail is not a deposit box. The entire purpose of a deposit
>> > box is that it never goes anywhere -- it stays at the bank, ready to
>> > be retreived when you need it. Why was it lost? Who was moving it? It's
>> > just a bunch of nonsense put out by BH/KJA to promote their book as
>> > "official," I think.
>>

>> Well, to be fair, a safety deposit box contents could be *lost* in
the
>sense of not being known that
>> it was utilized, depending on how the original renter, here F.H., set up
>the paperwork. However, I would
>> assume that, upon his death, his estate would be apprised of its
>existence, even if F.H. had kept silent
>> about its existence.
>>

>> Sam Sands

Jeffrey MacHott

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
to

Hitch wrote in message ...

>CODSWALLOP!!!!
>
>The BG never - NEVER - contemplated the melange as "religious." That is
>pure specious excrement.
>

Aw, just say it the way Lucilia the Imprinter (I forgot her last name) put
it: Slig-Shit :*)

--Ragu Leader

"Unfortunately you have reached tech support" --Electronic Arts Tech Support


>Hitch
>


>Samuel Sands wrote in message <37F6F9D2...@bellsouth.net>...
>>
>>
>>Ryan Newell wrote:
>>

>>> On Sat, 02 Oct 1999 21:50:25 -0400, Samuel Sands
>>> <ssa...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> > The B.G. were not a religious organization and the melange had no
>>> >religious significance to them. Sure they used it, just like they used
>>> >religion to manipulate, but it cannot be said that it was religiously
>>> >significant to the B.G. in the same example/sentence of how it was to
>the
>>> >Fremen. Sheesh.
>>>
>>> BUT melange IS religiously significant to the BG. Not in the same way
>>> as the Fremen, but why should BH give away any stuff like that to
>>> people who haven't yet read the book?? Melange is important to both,
>>> and both realise its religious significance (sheesh it takes a lot of
>>> letters to type those words <g>) just in different ways... is there
>>> really a need for BH to explain the differences ?? I thought that was
>>> up to the readers... I await someone telling me that the BG are not a
>>> secret to hide from people who haven't yet read Dune...
>>

Jeffrey MacHott

unread,
Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
to

Samuel Sands wrote in message <37F6D742...@bellsouth.net>...
>From the same Interview...
>
>JK: "Did you achieve what you had hoped for with this first book?"
>
>BH: "Absolutely. We wanted Dune: House Atreides to be as rich and varied
as
>a Dune book should be, giving it the look, feel and depth of a book Frank
>Herbert might have written himself. It needed to be filled with interesting
>characters, Machiavellian schemes and plot twists. It needed to include
>everything a Dune fan would be looking for."
>

It needed it, but it didn't get it, that's for sure :*)

><snip>

Hitch

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
to
Okay, guys:

It *is* possible to "lose" a safe-deposit box post-death...but, as was
pointed out, payment therefor has to come from *somewhere.* OTOH, in
complete fairness, IF FH had had a small bank account with same, he could
easily have set up automatic payment for the box via that account...and, if
the account were unknown to his family, they would have no reason to think
about the box, or even assume it existed. That being said, however, an
*awful* lot of coincidences would have to occur, for events to have unfolded
as we've been told. The bank would have to NOT know that FH had died (else,
they would *have* to reveal the existence thereof to the probate attorney);
there would have had to be enough money in the purported account to pay for
the box for - what, 11 years, plus or minus?; the account would have had to
RUN OUT, whereupon the Bank's attorney would have to start seeking the
next-of-kin, to dispose of the contents, and so on. But, to be fair, I did
want to say that is IS possible to "lose" a safe-deposit box, if the holder
of the account does NOT notify his/her family that the box and bank account
exists. Of course, THIS scenario then begs the obvious question -why
*didn't* FH want them to know it existed? Hmmmm....anyone wanna guess?

Hitch

Jeffrey MacHott wrote in message ...


>
>J McNutt wrote in message <7t8g44$li2$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
>>Hi Sam!
>>
>>I agree... the safety deposit box thing sounds fishy. Even if Frank's
>>Estate didn't retrieve the box, the bank would be looking to someone for
>the
>>annual fee on the box. It is true that each state usually has a statute
on
>>the books whereby boxes are considered "abandoned" after so much time of
>>inactivity, and the contents of such a "lost" box might be returned to
next
>>of kin. But Frank's box couldn't have been "found" only recently. I
mean,
>>come on, Frank died when? in 1986? no way is a bank going to "bank roll"
>>the box that long with a customer payment. And I doubt that the box could
>>remain inactive that long without reverting to the State. Something
>"ain't"
>>jiving here.
>>
>
>Maybe F. Herbert set up an annual payment of Melange to the bank to keep
the
>existence of the saftey deposit boxes hidden... wait, now that sounds like
>something I read somewhere in a book :*)
>
>But seriously, I'm starting to take everything BH and KJA say with a rather
>generous grain of salt :*/
>

>--Ragu Leader
>
>"Unfortunately you have reached tech support" --Electronic Arts Tech
Support
>
>

Samuel Sands

unread,
Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
to

Ryan Newell wrote:

> On Sun, 03 Oct 1999 02:38:11 -0400, Samuel Sands
> <ssa...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > He isn't comparing and contrasting in that sentence. I think that most
> >people reading that would assume that the B.G. used Melange as part of a
> >religious worship/ritual. I'm not so sure that BH knows the difference either,
> >despite your valiant defense. :^)
> >
> >Sam (who knows the difference) Sands
>

> <argh><wry grin> I wish I was more talented in the expressing thoughts
> department. Oh well.
>
> Sam - Do you not want the 'other side' to speak? Do you want to be
> able to make comments and never get feedback? I am not so much
> defending, as bringing new light to the subject in the hope that both
> sides of a story (so to speak) can be told. If BH was actually a
> regular on this newsgroup then maybe he might defend himself. I state
> right now, I am not defending him.
> BUT I also can't see the slip he made (or rather I see what you guys
> are saying but don't think that is the case... That must be how you
> guys feel about my words...)

If you follow my postings, I nearly always listen to the other side. My comment
wasn't harsh, IMHO. It even had a smiley. :^) Please don't take this the wrong
way, but relax a little.

Sam (restraint? I luv restraints.) Sands

>
>
> I do agree that the BG when simply in their own company do not use
> rituals to use the spice.
>
> Ryan


Hitch

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
to
No, Ryan, they didn't.

It was merely a TOOL. It had NO "religious significance" to *anyone* but
the Fremen (as part of their ceremonies...and, prior to Paul, it's obvious
that not even the Fremen had quite made the connection worm=spice, despite
the drowning of the stunted worm to make what THEY call the "WOL"); it had
MARKET signifcance, and the imprimatur of POWER. It had about as much
religious signifcance as OIL in this world (not to steal from FH, hint
hint). Islamic people in oil-rich countries do NOT bow down and pray to
OIL...they use it as economic leverage. The difference is patent and
obvious.

Surely, you recall Odrade's lectures to Streggi on the spice? How can you
*remotely* attach any sort of religious significance to that? They know
exactly what it is; it s a DRUG, which they use to create RM's; nothing
more, nothing less...and then, they are addicted for life. It ain't peyote,
Ryan. It's not a "religious" experience; it allows them (Latter-Day BG) to
access AM - a *requirement* for them, not some "mind-expanding" drug that
brings them "nearer to God." Let's get a reasonable perspective on it,
okay?

Hitch

Ryan Newell wrote in message <37fdf185...@news.xtra.co.nz>...
>On Sun, 3 Oct 1999 04:03:30 -0700, "Hitch" <kahit...@uswest.net>
>wrote:


>
>>The BG never - NEVER - contemplated the melange as "religious." That is
>>pure specious excrement.
>>

>>Hitch
>
>Yes they did :) They contemplated the melange as "religious" because
>they were smart enough to realise its significance to others, and so
>used it with all there other resources.
>
>Ryan

Samuel Sands

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Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
to

Ryan Newell wrote:

> On Sun, 3 Oct 1999 04:03:30 -0700, "Hitch" <kahit...@uswest.net>
> wrote:
>
> >The BG never - NEVER - contemplated the melange as "religious." That is
> >pure specious excrement.
> >
> >Hitch
>
> Yes they did :) They contemplated the melange as "religious" because
> they were smart enough to realise its significance to others, and so
> used it with all there other resources.

Please go back and read the original sentence. Do you honestly believe
that BH was putting the *spin* on it that you are crediting him with? I
believe that your average reader, especially someone not familiar with Dune
and the B.G., would assume that the B.G. *were* a religious organization for
which the spice held some sort of ritualistic or internal *significance*. If
I said, "The Rosary holds religious significance for me and Catholics", what
would you think? That I use rosaries to manipulate others?

Sam Sands

>
>
> Ryan


Hitch

unread,
Oct 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/3/99
to
Sam'l:

T'was *I* who wrote that the BG used the melange - its power, et al, to
"manipulate" others; it was Ryan who said that it had *significance* to
others - in, IMHO, a "religious" sense. I concur with you, *absolutely.*
As I said in my post, to the BG - other than the "making" of RM's - it was
nothing more than a *tool.* You are SO right!!!! <laugh>.

Hitch

Samuel Sands wrote in message <37F7FBE6...@bellsouth.net>...

Dune10191

unread,
Oct 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/4/99
to
Maybe the bank in question was using "no ship technology".
The latest thing is "no safety deposit box technology"

:-)

Dune10191


J McNutt <mcnu...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:7t8g44$li2$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net...


> Hi Sam!
>
> I agree... the safety deposit box thing sounds fishy. Even if Frank's
> Estate didn't retrieve the box, the bank would be looking to someone for
the
> annual fee on the box. It is true that each state usually has a statute
on
> the books whereby boxes are considered "abandoned" after so much time of
> inactivity, and the contents of such a "lost" box might be returned to
next
> of kin. But Frank's box couldn't have been "found" only recently. I
mean,
> come on, Frank died when? in 1986? no way is a bank going to "bank roll"
> the box that long with a customer payment. And I doubt that the box could
> remain inactive that long without reverting to the State. Something
"ain't"
> jiving here.
>

Ryan Newell

unread,
Oct 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/4/99
to
On Sun, 03 Oct 1999 02:38:11 -0400, Samuel Sands
<ssa...@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> He isn't comparing and contrasting in that sentence. I think that most
>people reading that would assume that the B.G. used Melange as part of a
>religious worship/ritual. I'm not so sure that BH knows the difference either,
>despite your valiant defense. :^)
>
>Sam (who knows the difference) Sands

<argh><wry grin> I wish I was more talented in the expressing thoughts
department. Oh well.

Sam - Do you not want the 'other side' to speak? Do you want to be
able to make comments and never get feedback? I am not so much
defending, as bringing new light to the subject in the hope that both
sides of a story (so to speak) can be told. If BH was actually a
regular on this newsgroup then maybe he might defend himself. I state
right now, I am not defending him.
BUT I also can't see the slip he made (or rather I see what you guys
are saying but don't think that is the case... That must be how you
guys feel about my words...)

I do agree that the BG when simply in their own company do not use

Ryan Newell

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Oct 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/4/99
to
On Sun, 3 Oct 1999 04:03:30 -0700, "Hitch" <kahit...@uswest.net>
wrote:

>The BG never - NEVER - contemplated the melange as "religious." That is
>pure specious excrement.
>
>Hitch

Yes they did :) They contemplated the melange as "religious" because
they were smart enough to realise its significance to others, and so
used it with all there other resources.

Ryan

Kathryn

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Oct 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/4/99
to
That seems quite plausible. I read a news article about a man in England...
living in some country town. He was a bit reclusive, and when he died noone
noticed. I think it was 23 years later that his skeletal remains were
discovered in an armchair sitting by his Christmas tree. Noone had noticed
his death because his rent was taken automatically out of his bank account.
Of course, the money eventually ran out and someone went around to check on
him. They would have got quite a surprise :P~

Not quite the same, but I guess what I'm saying is that the notes could have
stayed in a safe deposit box somewhere with automatic payment out of an
account. Maybe FH didn't want knowledge of the existence of those notes
known because, in the case of this happening it would add the pressure of
the public expecting and demanding a new book. He may have just wanted to
work at his own pace.

Kate


Hitch wrote in message ...

Robert Curriden

unread,
Oct 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/4/99
to
Ryan,

These statements alone make me wonder if you ever opened the DC.

The Bene Gesserit WEREN'T RELIGIOUS!!!!!

Religion was at best a tool, something to mold and control weak minds, but
never something to be culled into believing oneself! Melange was a drug, as
useful drug, a very powerful, and dangerous drug, but definitely not
something used as an act of worship, or anything else related to coming
closer to your local deity, the very definition of religion! How can either
you or BH claim to know anything about the REAL DC and make statements like

"BUT melange IS religiously significant to the BG. "

when the BG by the very type and content of their collective character
manipulated and stood over religion!

Oi.....I am so close to a rant....so close...

Robert Curriden

--
"There's an unwritten compact between you and the
reader. If someone enters a bookstore and sets down
hard earned money (energy) for your book, you owe
that person some entertainment and as much more as
you can give.

That was really my intention all along."

-Frank Herbert
"When I was writing Dune"
Preface to Heretics of Dune

Robert Curriden

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Oct 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/4/99
to
Nope I am not going to do it....

Read my other post in this thread...

*fumes*

Robert Curriden

--
"There's an unwritten compact between you and the
reader. If someone enters a bookstore and sets down
hard earned money (energy) for your book, you owe
that person some entertainment and as much more as
you can give.

That was really my intention all along."

-Frank Herbert
"When I was writing Dune"
Preface to Heretics of Dune

Ryan Newell wrote in message <37fdf185...@news.xtra.co.nz>...

Robert Curriden

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Oct 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/4/99
to
<Snipage>

> I am not so much defending, as bringing new light to the subject in the
hope that both
>sides of a story (so to speak) can be told. If BH was actually a
>regular on this newsgroup then maybe he might defend himself. I state
>right now, I am not defending him.

<Snip for self-conflicting statements>


Ryan, that just blew up my BS detector! You are not defending BH? Since
when?

You aren't defending BH.....Let's go by the last two months...let's get out
all of your posts, and let's see how many of them aren't defending the
Dubious Duo in some fashion or another!

John P. Raynor

unread,
Oct 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/4/99
to
Ryan Newell (ifyouk...@email.me.there) wrote:
: BUT melange IS religiously significant to the BG.

Hrmph.
The importance of the spice and/or its essence to the Bene Gesserit
changes from book to book. In the original book, it's pretty clear
that the universe has quite a few "awareness spectrum narcotics"
and "illuminating poisons" (I don't have a copy of the book beside
me as I write, so I may not have the terminology quite right). The
Fremen, for instance, began using a "poison drug" to endow their
own Reverend Mothers with Other Memories long before they got to
Arrakis. The precursors of the Bene Gesserit (described, I believe,
as "sorceresses") were already using similar drugs shortly after the
first Jihad. In short, the spice essence was a particularly potent
"awareness spectrum narcotic," but it's far from *unique*. After
the first book, however, Herbert changes his tune, and the other
such drugs get quietly forgotten, presumably to make it easier to
create a political situation in which the power of House Atreides
rests solidly upon control of a unique resource... <shrug>

- J. Raynor

Samuel Sands

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Oct 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/4/99
to

John P. Raynor wrote:

They did use the Poison Drug from Rossak before Melange was
discovered. It is likely that melange replaced the Poison Drug for
several reasons. One, it could have simply been *better*. Perhaps less
side effects or *easier* to obtain, store. Second, perhaps the poison
drug became unavailable due to factors beyond their control. Such as the
destruction of/or distance from Rossak. Maybe the plant evolved beyond
its need to produce the substance. As for the other poisons and
preparations the B.G. used, there is no indication that they *gave*
these up. I would imagine that B.G. training still included the use of
poisons. Odrade still had this ability. Witness her use of her *poison*
training in her encounter with Dama and her *fun-filled* assistants.
Also, the resistance of the earlier Reverend Mothers that they captured.

Sam Sands

>
>
> - J. Raynor


Mutated Gopher Jelly

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Oct 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/4/99
to
I thought this quote might be of use to this thread on alternative BG
drugs/poisons to melange:

"Even your Bene Gesserit Truthsayer is trembling," Paul said. "There
are other poisons the Reverend Mothers can use for their tricks, but
once they've used the spice licquor, the others no longer work."

("Dune", Ace Paperback, pg. 477)

This seems to spell it out pretty clearly. Melange isn't THE
awareness-spectrum narcotic; just the most powerful and the most
addictive. I think addiction to spice and to its mental powers are tied
together. Alia and Paul both keep taking more and more spice to get
more and more mental powers in DM, whether it involves looking at the
past or future. I imagine lesser ASNs can't reveal anything spice
can't, and usually reveal much less. Nor can they satisfy a spice
addiction. So the existance of such non-melange ASNs is basically moot
by Dune.

-The Mentat Hawat (addicted to Dune?)

Chieftain

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Oct 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/5/99
to
In article <37F964...@erols.com>,

This is a fairly good explanation to something that's long puzzled me.
However, I think John is probably right - the importance of melange in
the DC did change quite significantly over the course of the novels.

One problem with this explanation is that it only works as long as
spice is available. When there is no access to spice it seems logical
that people should resort to alternative "ASNs". Why - and this is a
question I've raised here before - was no alternative drug found during
the Scattering to replace spice? If other ASNs do exist - and we know
from your quote that they do - why didn't the HMs use them? Among the
infinite number of planets out there, it seems inconceivable that no
other such drugs were found.

--
Chieftain.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

John P. Raynor

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Oct 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/5/99
to
Mutated Gopher Jelly (ter...@erols.com) wrote:
: This seems to spell it out pretty clearly. Melange isn't THE

: awareness-spectrum narcotic; just the most powerful and the most
: addictive. I think addiction to spice and to its mental powers are tied
: together. Alia and Paul both keep taking more and more spice to get
: more and more mental powers in DM, whether it involves looking at the
: past or future. I imagine lesser ASNs can't reveal anything spice
: can't, and usually reveal much less. Nor can they satisfy a spice
: addiction. So the existance of such non-melange ASNs is basically moot
: by Dune.

I think Herbert *had* to conveniently forget about the other "awareness
spectrum narcotics." If he hadn't, the Guild and the Sisterhood would
have been able to say something like "Up yours, worm-boy!" to the
God-Emperor, and gone back to using various other esoteric substances when
he cut off their supplies. There is also plenty of evidence that the
discovery (or "popularization") of the spice took place just a few
*decades* prior to the first novel! Doctor Yueh gives Paul a filmbook
about Arrakis, prepared when the only noteworthy thing about the planet
was its importance as a botanical research station -- and filmbooks are a
*fairly* recent invention, since Yueh *also* gives Paul a rather *fragile*
pre-filmbook copy of the Orange Catholic Bible. Somebody, I believe, also
mentions a primitive spice-harvesting machine dating back to the botanical
testing station era, which the Harkonnens kept running as a punishment
job. Arrakis is, it should be noted, notoriously hard on machinery.
In short, <A> the spice and its essence are not unique as awareness
spectrum narcotics, and there are (probably inferior) substitute drugs,
and <B> the Imperium as a whole began using the spice just decades before
the beginning of the first novel.
- J. Raynor

Zembar

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Oct 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/5/99
to

Hitch wrote in message ...
>Okay, guys:
>
>It *is* possible to "lose" a safe-deposit box post-death...but, as was
>pointed out, payment therefor has to come from *somewhere.* OTOH, in
>complete fairness, IF FH had had a small bank account with same, he could
>easily have set up automatic payment for the box via that account...and, if
>the account were unknown to his family, they would have no reason to think
>about the box, or even assume it existed. That being said, however, an
>*awful* lot of coincidences would have to occur, for events to have
unfolded
>as we've been told. The bank would have to NOT know that FH had died
(else,
>they would *have* to reveal the existence thereof to the probate attorney);
>there would have had to be enough money in the purported account to pay for
>the box for - what, 11 years, plus or minus?; the account would have had to
>RUN OUT, whereupon the Bank's attorney would have to start seeking the
>next-of-kin, to dispose of the contents, and so on. But, to be fair, I did
>want to say that is IS possible to "lose" a safe-deposit box, if the holder
>of the account does NOT notify his/her family that the box and bank account
>exists. Of course, THIS scenario then begs the obvious question -why
>*didn't* FH want them to know it existed? Hmmmm....anyone wanna guess?
>
>Hitch


How about this:
1. FH puts notes in vault in case of fire.
2. FH sets up automatic payment of money from his account.
3. FH dies.
4. Years pass, account remains known but untouched.
5. Relative decides to move account to another bank.
6. Bank asks: "Well, how are you going to pay for the safety deposit box
then?"
6. Relative says: "Box?"
7. Relative opens box, finds notes.
8. Relative decides to ruin FH's masterpiece by handing notes to crap
author.

Not completely implausible, eh?

/Zembar

"Stop the vegetarians, they eat all the animals' food!"

Gunnar Harboe

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Oct 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/5/99
to
Guys, about these notes...

I reread what BH and KJA have actually been saying about them, and
apparently, they've been collecting material from several different sources.
The stuff they found in the deposit box was notes for D7, which makes sense.
Since they mention university libraries as one source, I can bet they've
been snooping around Fullerton, and that that's the notes the prequels are
based on. For an explanation of how FH's notes for Dune ended up at
Fullerton, read Willis McNelly's essay on SF in the Fullerton library on
Museum Arrakeen (www.fremen.org/museum).


Bye!
Gunnar Harboe
g_ha...@hotmail.com
___
"Ultimately, everything is known
because you want to believe you know."
Frank Herbert

Gunnar Harboe

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Oct 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/5/99
to
Dear John,

Welcome aboard! It's mostly the two of us, but you're not alone in thinking
the spice is a recent introduction to the Duniverse (although not decades,
centuries, I'd say. But the Harkonnens were probably the first to harvest
the spice in such massive quantities, introducing spice to a wider market).

There's a parallel quote that gives away that the Guild also had used other
substances before:

"They might have taken Arrakis when they realised the error of specialising
on the melange awareness-spectrum narcotic for their navigators."

The key word, of course, is "specialising".

While it is implied in your text, I thought I should state outright that the
Guild and BG had probably been using the spice longer than anyone else
(excepting the Fremen). This gives time for Guild Navigators to mutate to
the extent we see in DM, and for the remarkable dependencies to form.


Bye!
Gunnar Harboe
g_ha...@hotmail.com
___
"Ultimately, everything is known
because you want to believe you know."
Frank Herbert


John P. Raynor <jra...@pantheon.yale.edu> wrote in message
news:7tcu23$1gn$1...@news.ycc.yale.edu...

Ryan Newell

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Oct 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/5/99
to
On Mon, 4 Oct 1999 16:46:24 -0400, "Robert Curriden"
<robn...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>
> Ryan, that just blew up my BS detector! You are not defending BH? Since
>when?
>
>You aren't defending BH.....Let's go by the last two months...let's get out
>all of your posts, and let's see how many of them aren't defending the
>Dubious Duo in some fashion or another!
>
>Robert Curriden

I have all 64 posts of mine right here on my computer (And I guess
they are in other computers all over the world), I can post them all
to you via email if you like...

This post is a bit long... but Robert wanted to say something that I
wasn't. I am proving him wrong. So now all may know that Robert makes
mistakes. Bad judgement call on your part Robert :) Oh well. I don't
care about this anymore (I wrote this paragraph after doing the stuff
to follow <g>)

I will go through them with basic subjects just for you starting with
my first post.

1. Info on HA, and said I loved it (the book, not the authors).
2. Opinion - I liked it (I think it was a reply to Hitch)
3. No-ship (I wanted to discuss it.. not the authors)
4. Posting replies to possible "attackers" (didn't say anything about
the authors...)
5. Said HA wasn't too bad to sherlock
6. Asked someone too post the "mystery"
7. Still talking about the no-ships, but these cut'n'pastes are the
only stuff about the authors, take from them what you will...
"I WILL be annoyed with KJA
and BH if they haven't got this at least partialyl developed in the
next books."
"An inconsistency it may seem at the moment... but KJA and BH have an
opportunity to reveal how it ISN'T an inconsistency. I hope they do
get it right for the sake of more books."
8. A silly reply, that can be viewed any way you like :)
">IN short, prove that these ideas were FH!
>
>Robert Curriden

So I'm a believer in the new books.

In short, prove that these ideas wereN'T FH!"
9. I said this...
"I don't think there is a problem here anymore? I liked the book.
Hitch
didn't. You guys/gals out there will like it.... or not.

Ryan"
10. Said this...
"
>When are you going to answer whether
>you were a KJA-fan *prior* to this book?

Never read any book made by KJA other than HA

Ryan"
11. Said THIS...
"and we have yet to see what KJA and BH do with the idea."
12. Started talking about 1d characters with Hitch(said nothing about
KJA and BH... not defending anyone)
13. Said this....
"I find it hard to express my thoughts on HA, and that is probably why
you have labelled me as a supporter of BH and KJA's new piece of
writing, AND why you have so many opportunities (and you do like using
them) to attack (bit too harsh perhaps...) my thoughts."
14. Said this
"Interpret it any way you like I guess. I am not a 'supporter' for any
of the three main authors (FH, BH, KJA). I am a supporter of Dune, and
I have really enjoyed 'discovering' this ng... and will continue to
support it by posting.

Ryan"
15. The rest of the posts are regarding this thread.

That is all 64 posts (including this one).

I have not defended KJA or BH, albeit sometimes I have started to
oppose others ideas (like "HA is stupid!"), but I am defending the
BOOK more than the authors. There IS a difference.

Ryan
ps Longest post by ME yet :)

Robert Curriden

unread,
Oct 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/5/99
to
What a literal mind! The sheer weight of the semantics used. Anyway, let me
get on with it.

Now, I could go through each of those and dissect how each was in support of
KJA/BH. But I don't think I am going to give it that kind of limelight. And
besides, I have no desire to split so many hairs at once, and I don't think
it will be necessary in any case.

You say that you are not defending them. Very well, show me where.
Demonstrate how each one is not defending them. Each and every instance you
have chosen to defend the written words of, and attempt to repel the
critiques of these two as authors. Granted, you have not been defending
their literal persons, and you have not been defending the content of their
character, but you have been defending their work, and IIRC the validity of
their claims on certain reference material, penned by FH, along with other
claims they have made.

I can fairly easily show how they are. Neglecting to mention the authors, or
the book while attempting to ward off attacks on the ideas, concepts and
plot vehicles of said book, and thereby authors, is still making a defense
of the same. Basically, by defending one, you are defending the other, in
the same way as my defending say, Hitch's written words would be on par with
defending Hitch himself. Now you could attempt to show how you have not even
attempted to support the concepts, and plot vehicles used. But I do think
you would be hard-pressed to do so.

Personally I recommend that you let this go; you simply aren't good enough a
sophist to make it fly. Oh and for the record, while I don't contest the
possibility of my being proven wrong, I sincerely doubt that it can be done,
regardless of the lapse of judgement you feel I have shown, by an intellect
such as yours.

With gilded words, and fine regards,

Walter Parker

unread,
Oct 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM10/5/99
to
The story that I heard directly from KJA at NASFIC was that the lawyer handling
FH estate called up BH and said something to the effect that the estate had
finally been wrapped up the only thing that remained was a key to a safe deposit
box in a bank in Seattle. KJA said that they had just been discovered because it
took 12 years to seattle the estate.


Walter