Clans? EH?
Pushkin
What is this business with Clans?
<shuffles haunches uncomfortably>
And why is it so cold here?
<beats wings and snorts smoke from nostrils>
DC.D/N f++ s(RL+ VR+++) h++ CMHK a- $ m d++ WL++* fr--- L10m BZ e+ g-
i+
Anne
"Cold?!" Anne, typing in mittens, several layers of winter coats and
sweatshirts, topped off with a pompom'd hat, huddled over a hot tea with
milk, rubs her hands together and excaims again, "Cold?! I certainly
*hope* you're cold, silly dragon!" A tiger gryphon hushes Anne and
enters the Dominance to talk to Pushkin.
"Greetings, I'm Lleu, and I asked that same question at some point. I
see you've gotten several answers much more suitable than mine would
be. Please excuse my typist, humans can get so mad about - what did you
call it, Anne? - oh yes, a *wetherman.* It is some being that tells you
wether it will be hot or cold, wether it's sunny or raining, wether you
should bring a coat or wether sunglasses would be better. Apperently
humans beleive its every word. Apperently it is often wrong." Lleu
grins and draws her wings around her. "I'm mammal, through and through,
and not quite as fragile as my typist's kind is, but it does get cold.
Let's go to a nicer place, shall we? I know of one *outstanding*
island.." She waits for comment as her typist goes to get more tea and
another sweatshirt, mumbling the whole way.
-Lleu, welcome! Um, you are new, right? Did I miss your welcome post?
and Anne, dern <mumblemumble> winter
Tamas McCoy
Pushkin wrote in message <345F99DF...@erols.com>...
>What is this business with Clans?
><shuffles haunches uncomfortably>
>And why is it so cold here?
><beats wings and snorts smoke from nostrils>
Ranger. Are any others here?
Polenth
Calanon wrote:
>I would like to join a Clan. I am a Dragon Master, an obscure sect of
>Ranger. Are any others here?
>
"Creatures normally join clans because they feel attached to the others in
them. Go out and met creatures if you want to join one. Only then will you
know if any of the clans are right for you. It's not something to go into
blind."
Polenth
Clan Stormcrest
DC.D f s++ h++ CDP a- $+++ d+++ WL+* Fr-- L14f e! Balkali i g- U+++ m:-)
My weyr is at: http://members.aol.com/polenth/weyr.htm
Owner of 'Herbal Concoctions' and 'The Forest Inn'
Draco Draconis Ebenium
Tamas McCoy <tamas...@mailcity.com> wrote in article
<63tjvf$9...@nnrp1.farm.idt.net>...
> Pushkin wrote in message <345F99DF...@erols.com>...
> >What is this business with Clans?
> ><shuffles haunches uncomfortably>
> >And why is it so cold here?
> ><beats wings and snorts smoke from nostrils>
> I would like to join a Clan. I am a Dragon Master, an obscure sect of
> Ranger. Are any others here?
"None that I know of, Goodsir McCoy. And I'd be a bit cautious about that
'Dragon Master' title. It smacks a bit of bondage and slavery of Dragons,
not a popular subject among us. No one masters a Dragon save itself." The
Ebon Dragon snorts emphatically, producing two faint, but perfect, smoke
rings from his nostrils.
--
Draco Draconis Ebenium | "Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons,
aka Ebony the Black Dragon | for you are chewy and taste great
known to the Human Race as | dipped in chocolate."
Aaron F. Johnson | -- Anonymous
eb...@cyberramp.net |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------
I'm a Black Dragon, trapped in a White Man's Body -- YARK!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------
"Surreality just got funky!" -- Scud, the Disposable Assassin
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------
Nobody WANTS my opinions!
G. Jones
On 7 Nov 1997, Draco Draconis Ebenium wrote:
> "None that I know of, Goodsir McCoy. And I'd be a bit cautious about that
> 'Dragon Master' title. It smacks a bit of bondage and slavery of Dragons,
> not a popular subject among us. No one masters a Dragon save itself." The
> Ebon Dragon snorts emphatically, producing two faint, but perfect, smoke
> rings from his nostrils.
Gwyrragedd, in her nowadays rarely seen full dragon body (still with
crows wings), pops in breifly, and turns blind black eyes Ebony's
direction, leering visibly, her tail twitching. "Och, now laddie, a little
bondage is nae so bad, is it?"
-Gwyrragedd Annwn
Draco Draconis Ebenium
G. Jones <gwj...@u.washington.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.A41.3.96a.97110...@dante18.u.washington.edu>...
> Gwyrragedd, in her nowadays rarely seen full dragon body (still with
> crows wings), pops in breifly, and turns blind black eyes Ebony's
> direction, leering visibly, her tail twitching. "Och, now laddie, a
little
> bondage is nae so bad, is it?"
>
> -Gwyrragedd Annwn
Ebony snorts. "That's not what I meant, and you know it." Ebony looks
closely at her, squinting slightly. "Your Pattern has been badly jangled,
Gwyrr. Are you okay?"
G. Jones
On 12 Nov 1997, Draco Draconis Ebenium wrote:
> Ebony snorts. "That's not what I meant, and you know it."
Gwyrragedd grins, but softens her voice..."And I was teasing, lad, an'
YE knoo it..."
Ebony looks
> closely at her, squinting slightly. "Your Pattern has been badly jangled,
> Gwyrr. Are you okay?"
Gwyrragedd blinks..."Pattern? Ye mean me changes, I suppose....aye,
I've....been through some roughness. I am as well as I ever am in this
place, Ebony. It is no' my home, an' I have lost e'en the place I love
most here, me willow. I dinnae see many friends here, anymore, but aye...I
am WELL...." she sounds just a touch bitter, then sighs. "Fergive me, I
ha' been out o' sorts lately." She shrugs to the black dragon, her
sightless black eyes staring off to some middle distance.
-Gwyrragedd Annwn
Draco Draconis Ebenium
G. Jones <gwj...@u.washington.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.A41.3.96a.97111...@dante21.u.washington.edu>...
> Gwyrragedd blinks..."Pattern? Ye mean me changes, I suppose....aye,
> I've....been through some roughness. I am as well as I ever am in this
> place, Ebony. It is no' my home, an' I have lost e'en the place I love
> most here, me willow. I dinnae see many friends here, anymore, but
aye...I
> am WELL...." she sounds just a touch bitter, then sighs. "Fergive me, I
> ha' been out o' sorts lately." She shrugs to the black dragon, her
> sightless black eyes staring off to some middle distance.
>
> -Gwyrragedd Annwn
Ebony quietly enfolds his friend in a comforting hug. "I would help you
if I could, Gwyrr," he says, "but such a change to a Pattern requires a
powerful spell, with it's own Name, and I dare not do that to another
Name-giver. It would be be imposition of the highest order, a magickal
rape. You may stay in my pines if you wish. They aren't as nice as your
willow, but they are good trees."
Calanon
Draco Draconis Ebenium wrote in message
<01bcef07$1f8bdac0$296f...@ebony.cyberramp.net>...><6434ua$h...@nnrp4.farm.idt.net>...
>> "Nay, good Dragon, our sect is the most Dragon-respecting of all. I
>simply
>> have a Dragon for a servant, therefore I'm a Dragon Master. Only Rangers
>of
>> that sect speak Draconian on my homeworld."
>
> "I see," Ebony frowns. "So, you respect Dragons, but you call them
>"servants." Dragons are not servants, little Ranger. Dragons are
>DRAGONS!!! If a Dragon chooses to _partner_ with you, that is one thing,
>but do not think that you can call one of us a "servant.""
Calanon starts. "Well, she considers herself my 'servant' so I call her
such. In truth, she is my steed." Showaname(Calanon's Dragon steed)'s shriek
confirms this. "I do not call all Dragons servants, I call them equals, or
elders. Even the evil Dragons from my homeworld respect me, and I them."
----
Calanon the Half-Elven Ranger.
Member of Elven Hackers (Dedicated to removing non
jocular racist remarks from the web.)
Lord of the Order of Holy Rangers
(If you want to join either, e-mail me!)
Calanon
G. Jones wrote in message ...
>On 12 Nov 1997, Draco Draconis Ebenium wrote:
>> if I could, Gwyrr," he says, "but such a change to a Pattern requires a
>> powerful spell, with it's own Name, and I dare not do that to another
>> Name-giver. It would be be imposition of the highest order, a magickal
>> rape. You may stay in my pines if you wish. They aren't as nice as your
>> willow, but they are good trees."
>
>here is sae bursting wi' magic...it's wha' go' me in trouble in tha' first
>place, this damn magical stuff..." she turns her head Ebony's direction.
>"I thank ye fer tha' offer, though...fer now I'm just hangin' aroond tha'
>coast....it seems easier ta' me, and there's a friend I miss froom there."
>She hugs Ebony back quietly. "I might visit, though, if ye dinnae mind. I
>ha' too few friends here anymore, and I spend sae mooch time as a human, I
>actually get lonely..." she laughs, a bit of her usual overflowing good
>humor returning. "Though ye might regret it if I show up...I'm tolf I
>terrible trouble," she teases.
Calanon, who had climbed onto Showaname's back, said "Magic is not that
scarce in this dimensus, then? And I had thought there would be less here!
Tell me, are there any Chaos Mages among you? I am not a Ranger only." He
smiled.
G. Jones
On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Calanon wrote:
> Calanon, who had climbed onto Showaname's back, said "Magic is not that
> scarce in this dimensus, then? And I had thought there would be less here!
> Tell me, are there any Chaos Mages among you? I am not a Ranger only." He
> smiled.
Gwyrragedd shrugs her broad shoulder..."I ha' no' tha'
faintest...sounds like a silly idea ta' me, anyways..." she states, a bit
crossly. It's pretty evident she's none too fond of the rampant magic that
occaisionally runs wild across the Dominance. "An' what on earth is a
ranger? Are ye like a gypsy then, who roams around?" She glances with
curiosity at the newcomer.
-Gwyrragedd Annwn
Batty
"G. Jones" <gwj...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
- Gwyrragedd sighs..."Och, I'm tired o' spells, anyways...everyoon aroond
-here is sae bursting wi' magic..."
<that sounds like a cue> Hello! One non-magical, perfectly ordinary, boring
old fruitbat at your service. I live in a non-magical forest with ordinary
trees and an ordinary orchard. It's not Ebony's pines, and it sure doesn't
have a tree like your willow. It *does* have a big old eucalyptus called a
Blue Gum, but it's an ordinary one like any you can see in Aus. If you
crush the leaves they smell nice.
No magic. Just the wind and Binkey.
Any time you want to rest, just turn up.
Batty
____________________________________
dwhi...@spam-off.lisp.com.au http://www.usn.blaze.net.au/~batty/
I know this might sound strange, but all I want is a normal life
This is serious, Mum.
Calanon
G. Jones wrote in message ...
>
>
Druids. Only Rangers are more skilled in the art of Fighting, and less in
the art of Magic. But as a Chaos Mage, I am not as bad at Magic. And being
of the Dragon Master sect (not the Dragon Slaver sect, that is an Assassin
sect), I know much of Dragons, and am Friend to many. Most gypsies are
Thieves or Psionicists, at best. I am friend to some, but not all."
Showaname shrieked agreement.
G. Jones
On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Batty wrote:
> <that sounds like a cue> Hello! One non-magical, perfectly ordinary, boring
> old fruitbat at your service. I live in a non-magical forest with ordinary
> trees and an ordinary orchard. It's not Ebony's pines, and it sure doesn't
> have a tree like your willow. It *does* have a big old eucalyptus called a
> Blue Gum, but it's an ordinary one like any you can see in Aus. If you
> crush the leaves they smell nice.
>
> No magic. Just the wind and Binkey.
>
> Any time you want to rest, just turn up.
Gwyrragedd grins broadly at the bat. "Batty," she says, "In my world,
bats dinnae speak English. That seems a mite odd tae me. But I thank ye
for tha' offer, as yuir one o' tha' few no' offering spells tae make me
life better...just good company. Maybe I'll show up an' wreak a little
havock..."she chuckles.
-Gwyrragedd Annwn
G. Jones
On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Calanon wrote:
> Calanon laughs "No, Rangers are usually protectorates of Nature, as the
> Druids.
Gwyrragedd blinks..."No' wait a minute...I ha' ne'er heard tha' term
ranger fer a druid, nor are they protectors of nature...why wpuld nature
need protectin'? They are the priests o' tha' people, holders o' lore an'
tha' law!"
Only Rangers are more skilled in the art of Fighting, and less in
> the art of Magic. But as a Chaos Mage, I am not as bad at Magic. And being
> of the Dragon Master sect (not the Dragon Slaver sect, that is an Assassin
> sect), I know much of Dragons, and am Friend to many. Most gypsies are
> Thieves or Psionicists, at best. I am friend to some, but not all."
> Showaname shrieked agreement.
Gwyrragedd blinks in total vonfusion..."Why do all thes epeople ha'
titles......an' why would ye call gypsies thieves? Aye, soom o' them are
free wi' thier fingers, but they are also wonderful dacers an' singers, an
kin do many things...how kin ye say they are mostly ANYTHING?"
[BTW, Gwyrragedd is from a fairly close to historically accurate earth, on
which she lived from around 2000 BC to around 600 AD.,...she does not use
D&D terms at all, and, as can be evidenced by her speech, totally confused
by over simplification in those manners. She speaks of the historical
druids, and the Gypsies as a cultural group originally from Romania.]
-Gwyrragedd Annwn
[And Gwynedd, her typist]
G. Jones
On 17 Nov 1997, Draco Draconis Ebenium wrote:
> "Assumptions are foolish, for any race, little Ranger," comments Ebony,
> coolly. "The Rom are more than thieves, and you would know this if you
> took the time to know them. Some of the fiercest warriors I have ever met
> come from that people, fighting against intolerance and assumption to
> defend their people." Ebony turns to Gwyrr, continuing, "Rangers are
> woodsmen and women, living off the land. Some protect the forest, as he
> says. Others simply live there, hunting and fishing off the land. Still
> others provide their skills to the kingdoms of the world, as soldiers who
> use their knowledge to spy upon or hunt their enemies. Many hold the same
> beliefs as the Druids, and worship at the sacred groves and circles, but
> not all."
Gwyrraged nods, still loking confused..."I'm thinkin' druids are
different were ye coom from, then...tha' same place as him?" she flicks
her hair in the newcomer's direction. "Tha' druidswell, they were dyin'
when I left..." she sighs. "Bein' wiped out, or disappearing intae tha'
people...an' I ha' ne'er heard o' these rangers....though I ha' tha'
privelege of spending time wi' wha' became gypsies, froom Romania. A very
spiritual people, an' they ha' tha' best stories..." she chuckles fondly
at the memory. Then she shrugs. "Rangers sound li' mercenaries, o' a
type..." she says.
-Gwyrraged Annwn
Wyrm
Greetings.
"G. Jones" <gwj...@u.washington.edu> spake thus:
>On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Calanon wrote:
>> Calanon replies, "Rangers are to Druids what Paladins are to Clerics."
> Gwyrragedd blinks. "What?!"
Oh Dear.
>"Look, Gwyrragedd," she explains, "here's a load of
>books which probalby explains Calanon's world." She pulls out a bunch of
>large papaerbacks, all bearing the mark of AD&D.
> Gwyrragedd turns to Calanon. "I'm no' sure I kin help ye...I dinnae ha'
>a level, ye see, nor am I particularily magical...I'm sure soomone around
>might help though..."
Not me. I'd just eat the whole lot of them!
Wyrm - I've never eaten a dimensus(?) but there's always a first time!
--
Wyrm: http://www.wyrm.demon.co.uk/
DC.D f++ s-- h++ CFire a+++++ $+ (m) d+++
WL++ Fr++++ L700f BF e+++ g-- i+! U+++
Dragon's, coming, out of the sea.
Shimmering silver head of wisdom looking at me.
Peter Gabriel - Genesis.
Draco Draconis Ebenium
G. Jones <gwj...@u.washington.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.A41.3.96a.97111...@dante23.u.washington.edu>...
"Druids are priests, Gwyrr, much as you say. Calanon's Druids are
different from yours and mine, and I suspect that those of my world are
similar to yours. A Paladin, as he mentioned, is a holy warrior, one who
has taken up arms in the service of a god or gods. The Templars of France
and England would be considered Paladins, on their best days. On their
worst, they could be considered nothing less than ravaging marauders. As
for Clerics, that's a name for a Priest of an "organized" religion. Those
that manage the books and libraries in particular. Ranger is a very
general term, not meaning a people or an organization, but a manner. The
ranger is a warrior who fights in the woods, or the swamps, or the jungle,
or the desert, but also lives there. They've been called other things as
well, such as guerilla. Some were mercenaries, and some were vassals to
lords, in charge of keeping the forests of their lieges. Still others were
elf-friends, guarding the borders of the Fair Folk's realm, protecting
mortals more than the realm, since the Fey have their own security. A
catchall term, it is, nothing more. As for the Rom, they hail not from
Romania originally, but from India. Of course, this was many thousands of
years ago, but they came west from that part of the world, staying in Egypt
for a while, which is how they came to be known as Gypsies. A curious
people, but honorable, in their own way."
--
Draco Draconis Ebenium | "Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons,
aka Ebony the Black Dragon | for you are chewy and taste great
known to the Human Race as | dipped in chocolate."
Aaron F. Johnson | -- Anonymous
eb...@cyberramp.net |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
I'm a Black Dragon, trapped in a White Man's Body -- YARK!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
"Surreality just got funky!" -- Scud, the Disposable Assassin
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Nobody WANTS my opinions!
Draco Draconis Ebenium
Brood <bpic...@oz.net> wrote in article
<bpickett-191...@bpickett.oz.net>...
>
> > "Druids are priests, Gwyrr,
> > --
>
>
> Not so, my friend. Druid, means "oak person" Drui: Oak- In Gaelic
>
> And if you add the d, as the Gauls did, then it is referring to an
> individual or group.
>
> The Romans were the first (and worst) to label the Druids as priests.
The
> Greeks called them Philosophers.
>
"As Gwyrr said, they are both, and loremasters as well. Priest, however,
is the most easily seen of their roles, since they preside over ceremonies
on the holy days of the Celts."
Brood
> "Druids are priests, Gwyrr,
> --
Not so, my friend. Druid, means "oak person" Drui: Oak- In Gaelic
And if you add the d, as the Gauls did, then it is referring to an
individual or group.
The Romans were the first (and worst) to label the Druids as priests. The
Greeks called them Philosophers.
~Brood - The Enlightened
--
Brood (Bree Pickett bpic...@oz.net.to.to)
DC.D f s+ h++ CDB*(pulsing stars) a++++ $-- m** d--- WL++*
Fr---- L21,120f(elf 6.5f) BP/Hydrogen e! g- i-! u+
Traveller of the night sky
------------------------------------------------------------
In rememberance... for a lover of Dragons
------------------------------------------------------------
A poem is like a kaleidascope, everyone sees something different within.
~Anonymous
Shimmer the encompassing spirit
DC.D(spirit) f:none s h--- CTLa a++++ $-- m d+++ WL++** Fr---
L<21,000>f B:love, friendship, hope, and joy e+++ g- i- U---
"I breath upon any who encounter me."
G. Jones
On 20 Nov 1997, Brood wrote:
> Not so, my friend. Druid, means "oak person" Drui: Oak- In Gaelic
Actually, man of the oak. Not persons. Definitely male.
>
> And if you add the d, as the Gauls did, then it is referring to an
> individual or group.
>
> The Romans were the first (and worst) to label the Druids as priests. The
> Greeks called them Philosophers.
>
However, considering their social obligations as well as religious and
philosophical knowledge, priest is not a bad word for them.
-Gwynedd, druid-in-training
G. Jones
On 20 Nov 1997, Draco Draconis Ebenium wrote:
> > > "Druids are priests, Gwyrr,
> > > --
> >
> >
> > Not so, my friend. Druid, means "oak person" Drui: Oak- In Gaelic
> >
> > And if you add the d, as the Gauls did, then it is referring to an
> > individual or group.
> >
> > The Romans were the first (and worst) to label the Druids as priests.
> The
> > Greeks called them Philosophers.
> >
>
> "As Gwyrr said, they are both, and loremasters as well. Priest, however,
> is the most easily seen of their roles, since they preside over ceremonies
> on the holy days of the Celts."
Gwynedd suddenly sticks her head in..."Where the heck is the original
message by Brood!? I can't find the damn thing...and Gwyrragedd would
probably have a very lengthy commentary on someone having the cheek to try
and explain to her what druids are....." she laughs....
-Gwynedd
Sam
On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, G. Jones wrote:
> > Not so, my friend. Druid, means "oak person" Drui: Oak- In Gaelic
>
> Actually, man of the oak. Not persons. Definitely male.
[...]
> -Gwynedd, druid-in-training
Hmmm... you're male then? I thought otherwise, though I could be
confused... ;)
--quen (even more confused... but we've been through that already)
G. Jones
On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Sam wrote:
> > Actually, man of the oak. Not persons. Definitely male.
>
> [...]
>
> > -Gwynedd, druid-in-training
>
> Hmmm... you're male then? I thought otherwise, though I could be
> confused... ;)
>
> --quen (even more confused... but we've been through that already)
*laugh* Not last I checked, no....pretty female...well, not pretty,
just female....ANYWAYS! I meant the title implied male, but it is only a
title. Becuase the word is from long ago, when there used to be a female
preisthood as well, it is male. But nowadyas, modern druids can be either
gender, though they still use the old word...am I being clear? :)
-Gwynedd
G. Jones
On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Wyrm wrote:
> Which Gaelic? Irish, Scottish, or Manx?
> Or even Cornish, Breton, Welsh, Gaulish... though these are not technically
> Gaelic.
Welsh. That's the one I know...
> They're more akin to shamans though aren't they (or maybe a transition from
> shaman to priest).
Hoo boy...no, they're not akin to shamans. They're very different.
Lot's of people make that mistake....shamans have do do with nature
worship, and spirits and stuff like that....druidism, at least the Welsh
format, is different. Depnding on the kind of shamanism, shmans have
various tasks. The 'witch doctors' protect the people from witches, and
evil magics. They also millify spirits, and walk in the lands of the
dead...it all depends on what type of shamans you're talking about and
what tribe they come from.
Druids, of the Welsh variety, are not nature worshippers, though many
seem to think they are. They hold the natural world in awe, etc, but they
do not worship it as such. The belief in various spirits is far weaker in
the Welsh tradition, and modern Welsh druidism than in the Native American
beliefs...and Welsh druids are semi-monotheistic. Their role is more
scholarly, and is more closely tied to social responsibilities with the
people.
> It's from them that we get the custom of hanging up mistletoe, though it
> has gone through many transitions since Celtic days and does not mean quite
> the same anymore!
*laugh* Considering it's use in Celtic human sacrifice, I'd have to say
it has definitely changed! :)
-Gwynedd
Wyrm
In the article <Pine.A41.3.96a.97112...@dante13.u.washington.edu>
>> Not so, my friend. Druid, means "oak person" Drui: Oak- In Gaelic
Which Gaelic? Irish, Scottish, or Manx?
Or even Cornish, Breton, Welsh, Gaulish... though these are not technically
Gaelic.
In Irish Gaelic it is Draoi.
In Scottish Gaelic it is Druidh.
In Manx Gaelic it is Druaightagh.
In Welsh, it is Derwydd, which might also mean 'man of the oak' (Derwen
[Derw] is Oak or Oak tree, ydd is the ending that shows it to be
masculine).
In Gaulish it is Druides.
Druid is the English version of the word (druid means close in Irish
Gaelic) and stems primarily from the Scottish Gaelic word..
It's etymology is actually uncertain. It might stem from 'oak' or might be
a derivation of another word (i.e. Greek).
>> The Romans were the first (and worst) to label the Druids as priests. The
>> Greeks called them Philosophers.
> However, considering their social obligations as well as religious and
>philosophical knowledge, priest is not a bad word for them.
They're more akin to shamans though aren't they (or maybe a transition from
shaman to priest).
It's from them that we get the custom of hanging up mistletoe, though it
has gone through many transitions since Celtic days and does not mean quite
the same anymore!
Wyrm.
an...@chebucto.ns.ca
Flop sticks her head in and listens to what the two dragons are saying.
"Oh my, I think I might just have a Druid-to-be-friend who probably has
something to say about this.....OH JAAAAAAYYYYYY WHERE ARRRREEEE
YOOOOUUUU?"
>> "As Gwyrr said, they are both, and loremasters as well. Priest, howeve
>r,
>> is the most easily seen of their roles, since they preside over ceremonies
>> on the holy days of the Celts."
>
> Gwynedd suddenly sticks her head in..."Where the heck is the original
>message by Brood!? I can't find the damn thing...and Gwyrragedd would
>probably have a very lengthy commentary on someone having the cheek to try
>and explain to her what druids are....." she laughs....
>
>-Gwynedd
Flop the Green, returned to Alfandra
Brood
In article
<Pine.A41.3.96a.97112...@dante22.u.washington.edu>, "G.
Jones" <gwj...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Wyrm wrote:
>
> Druids, of the Welsh variety, are not nature worshippers, though many
> seem to think they are. They hold the natural world in awe, etc, but they
> do not worship it as such. The belief in various spirits is far weaker in
> the Welsh tradition, and modern Welsh druidism than in the Native American
> beliefs...and Welsh druids are semi-monotheistic. Their role is more
> scholarly, and is more closely tied to social responsibilities with the
> people.
>
Many of the works that lead to the study of druidism today, agree that
they were moer scholorly. Their work with the people of their time was as
scientists of today. They were the ones who _knew_ why the sun came up,
what made water flow, why the seasons changed, and other questions of this
sort. But they also acted as healers, teachers, historians/scribes,
lawkeepers/judges(when needed); but they had many other roles as well...
that _did_ include priestly duties. These included sacrifices
(blood-letting and not), vision/dream interpretation, laying the dead to
rest, baptisms, and other rituals that the men (and women) of that day
concidered importaint.
> > It's from them that we get the custom of hanging up mistletoe, though it
> > has gone through many transitions since Celtic days and does not mean quite
> > the same anymore!
>
While mistletoe is deadly to consume, it helps heal when applied to the
skin as a polstice or lotion. It also helps break fever and cleanses the
lungs when used on a steam/aroma-therapy.
> *laugh* Considering it's use in Celtic human sacrifice, I'd have to say
> it has definitely changed! :)
>
I don't know where you heard this Gwyn, but I've never found any
information pertaining to such.
In Ireland, the Druids were not allowed to practice blood sacrifice, as a
law given from Amergin; The isle was already believed to be cursed with
spilt blood, so he made the law to apply in their new homeland.
> -Gwynedd
~Brood (Bree; who loves keeping the knowledge of his ancestors homeland.)
Brood
In article
<Pine.A41.3.96a.97112...@dante22.u.washington.edu>, "G.
Jones" <gwj...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Sam wrote:
>
> > > Actually, man of the oak. Not persons. Definitely male.
> >
I stand corrected, we are in a [snort] _civilized_ age. There was
documentation in Winsor castle that stated there were female druids. They
were called Druyids <sp?>, from where we get the myth today of Dryads.
> >
> > > -Gwynedd, druid-in-training
Yes, I am a Druid myself, Gwyn ;)
-Bree
G. Jones
On 22 Nov 1997 an...@chebucto.ns.ca wrote:
> Flop sticks her head in and listens to what the two dragons are saying.
>
> "Oh my, I think I might just have a Druid-to-be-friend who probably has
> something to say about this.....OH JAAAAAAYYYYYY WHERE ARRRREEEE
> YOOOOUUUU?"
Gwynedd, purely human, looks over. "What kind of druid to be?" she
asks, curious, but also mildly suspicious. (yes, anyone who's neo-pagan
knows there are many types of us, and we don't all get along....;)
-Gwynedd
Sam
On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, G. Jones wrote:
> just female....ANYWAYS! I meant the title implied male, but it is only a
> title. Becuase the word is from long ago, when there used to be a female
> preisthood as well, it is male. But nowadyas, modern druids can be either
> gender, though they still use the old word...am I being clear? :)
Yeah, I was just being silly :) However, what would be the equivalent to
"druid" if you used "woman" instead of "man" as the appropriate part of
its derivation...?
["druidess" works in english of course, but.... ;)]
--quen
G. Jones
On 22 Nov 1997, Brood wrote:
> Many of the works that lead to the study of druidism today, agree that
> they were moer scholorly. Their work with the people of their time was as
> scientists of today. They were the ones who _knew_ why the sun came up,
> what made water flow, why the seasons changed, and other questions of this
> sort. But they also acted as healers, teachers, historians/scribes,
> lawkeepers/judges(when needed); but they had many other roles as well...
> that _did_ include priestly duties. These included sacrifices
> (blood-letting and not), vision/dream interpretation, laying the dead to
> rest, baptisms, and other rituals that the men (and women) of that day
> concidered importaint.
*blink* Baptisms? The CHRISTIAN ritual? Oooookay,......the rest I know.
After all, I hope to be a druid one day, many, many years from
now...*wince* Can't wait to get the brand...
> I don't know where you heard this Gwyn, but I've never found any
> information pertaining to such.
Don't know about the bog people then? One of the primary piece of
archelogical evidence that the Celtic people practiced human sacrifice?
They found many well preserved bodies in bogs, and archelogical foresincs
experets examined the bodies, concluding they died by ritual
violence...aka sacrifice. They also found mistletoe in the bellies of
these victoms.
> In Ireland, the Druids were not allowed to practice blood sacrifice, as a
> law given from Amergin; The isle was already believed to be cursed with
> spilt blood, so he made the law to apply in their new homeland.
Druids existed in more than Ireland. And elsewhere human sacrifice was
practiced, though admittedly it was more common with mainland druids.
> ~Brood (Bree; who loves keeping the knowledge of his ancestors homeland.)
Irish, are you then? Remember, Irish druids and Welsh druids (as well
as the Scottish and English varieties) were very different...perhaps the
Welsh most seperate of all.
-Gwynedd
G. Jones
On 22 Nov 1997, Brood wrote:
> Yes, I am a Druid myself, Gwyn ;)
>
> -Bree
And how old are you? And WHAT kind of druid did you say you were?
*grin* See, I study traditional Welsh druidism, in which you have to study
for many, many years to become a druid. When I'm done, I have to go back
to Anglesey, and take some very harsh tests. If I pass, I get a brand....I
don't expect to become a druid 'till my forties. So, I sometimes get a
little antsy about the varous versions of druids there are out there (me
and the AFD do not get along)....so 'scuse my skepticism. You may well be
a druid in your version of the religion, but I doubt you are in my
version....:)
-Gwynedd
G. Jones
On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Sam wrote:
> Yeah, I was just being silly :) However, what would be the equivalent to
> "druid" if you used "woman" instead of "man" as the appropriate part of
> its derivation...?
>
> ["druidess" works in english of course, but.... ;)]
*laugh* Yah got me! Druid is really an English version of a word
anyways....I don't speaks the languages...though apparetnly Wyrm does a
little. The Welsh word doesn't even look that much like druid, though I
understand the women priestesses had an enitrely different word for what
they were.....I know the name Morgan comes from a word for priestess....
-Gwynedd
Brood
In article
<Pine.A41.3.96a.97112...@dante26.u.washington.edu>, "G.
Jones" <gwj...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> On 22 Nov 1997, Brood wrote:
>
(Snipped info...Sorry folks)
> *blink* Baptisms? The CHRISTIAN ritual? Oooookay,......the rest I know.
> After all, I hope to be a druid one day, many, many years from
> now...*wince* Can't wait to get the brand...
>
Yes, the druids held many sacred sites of water, and fire rituals, which
are proven, through archealogy, to have been used for baptism long before
any other religion is known to exist in these places. One such site is
the Springs of Bath... ever heard of it? Also, there were other baptisms,
with air, fire and earth. These are researched highly even today, and the
bodies that are examined show the markings of firebrands, where the bones
were broken (as if from great heights) and even beings that were buried
alive. While some of the information is speculation by the archeological
community; the attire that the bodies wore cannot be mistaken for anything
other than druid robes. Still as the popes of Catholic faith have all
been known to say, "The best way to subvert the authority of a native
religion, is not through conquering them...but to absorb their traditions
into our own religion."
> > I don't know where you heard this Gwyn, but I've never found any
> > information pertaining to such.
>
> Don't know about the bog people then? One of the primary piece of
> archelogical evidence that the Celtic people practiced human sacrifice?
> They found many well preserved bodies in bogs, and archelogical foresincs
> experts examined the bodies, concluding they died by ritual
> violence...aka sacrifice. They also found mistletoe in the bellies of
> these victims.
>
This is speculation and heresy, disputed even now by the great minds who
study our histories. The summation of Piggott (who first eluded to this
theory) was that the bodies were those of druids, because they wore jewels
and better clothing than the common farmers, and warriors. The more
popular belief is that they were war victims and criminals, or even
victims of circumstance. But, as all of the historians say, "We can only
guess".
> > In Ireland, the Druids were not allowed to practice blood sacrifice, as a
> > law given from Amergin; The isle was already believed to be cursed with
> > spilt blood, so he made the law to apply in their new homeland.
>
> Druids existed in more than Ireland. And elsewhere human sacrifice was
> practiced, though admittedly it was more common with mainland druids.
True, but we cannot say what they really did as sacrifice, or as
punishment for crimes.
>
> > ~Brood (Bree; who loves keeping the knowledge of his ancestors homeland.)
>
> Irish, are you then? Remember, Irish druids and Welsh druids (as well
> as the Scottish and English varieties) were very different...perhaps the
> Welsh most seperate of all.
>
As Taliesin himself said in one of his musings: "We are all one people
under the watchful eye of creation."
> -Gwynedd
~The Brood
G. Jones
On 23 Nov 1997, Brood wrote:
> Yes, the druids held many sacred sites of water, and fire rituals, which
> are proven, through archealogy, to have been used for baptism long before
> any other religion is known to exist in these places. One such site is
> the Springs of Bath... ever heard of it? Also, there were other baptisms,
> with air, fire and earth. These are researched highly even today, and the
> bodies that are examined show the markings of firebrands, where the bones
> were broken (as if from great heights) and even beings that were buried
> alive. While some of the information is speculation by the archeological
> community; the attire that the bodies wore cannot be mistaken for anything
> other than druid robes. Still as the popes of Catholic faith have all
> been known to say, "The best way to subvert the authority of a native
> religion, is not through conquering them...but to absorb their traditions
> into our own religion."
*laugh* I doubt that was what spawned the Christian tradition of
baptism, since that started way back with good ol' John....but when I say
baptism, I don't mean just water rites, I am well aware of those that the
Celts practiced...I meant the whole concept of rebirth in a religion
through the water, which is the Christian view, and I know of no such
rites practices by the Cetls.
> This is speculation and heresy, disputed even now by the great minds who
> study our histories. The summation of Piggott (who first eluded to this
> theory) was that the bodies were those of druids, because they wore jewels
> and better clothing than the common farmers, and warriors. The more
> popular belief is that they were war victims and criminals, or even
> victims of circumstance. But, as all of the historians say, "We can only
> guess".
I've seen evidence for both sides...and as the bodies themselves are
not speculation and hearsay, what I've seen indicates
sacrifice...considering the fair uniformity in the manners of death, and
of course, the inclusion of the mistletoe seems to point to religious
purpose.
> As Taliesin himself said in one of his musings: "We are all one people
> under the watchful eye of creation."
*laugh* Taliesin may have said that, but any person who has seen the
various temperments of the Celts, Irish, Scots, Welsh, etc, knows that we
are very different people. History says so also, since Celticism is only a
culture that overtook many different cultural and racial groups, and was
absorbed in different ways. The philosophy is all well and good, but when
you're talking about religous beliefs, the many cultural variations of
the Celts are vastly different. One need only look at the myths and
legends of the people....I won't claim to know the things someone studying
to be an Irish druid would, just as I suspect you have a similarity about
the Welsh religion. Of course, half this discussion s about history! :)
So, I 'spect someone will butt in soon to refute both our viewpoints....;)
-Gwynedd
Brood
In article
<Pine.A41.3.96a.97112...@dante26.u.washington.edu>, "G.
Jones" <gwj...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> *grin* See, I study traditional Welsh druidism, in which you have to study
> for many, many years to become a druid. When I'm done, I have to go back
> to Anglesey, and take some very harsh tests. If I pass, I get a brand....I
> don't expect to become a druid 'till my forties. So, I sometimes get a
> little antsy about the varous versions of druids there are out there (me
> and the AFD do not get along)....so 'scuse my skepticism. You may well be
> a druid in your version of the religion, but I doubt you are in my
> version....:)
>
> -Gwynedd
No need to take the offensive.<g> I am not trying to change your beliefs
or ideals. I am merely saying that we are all taught differently, mostly
because the Celts were very scattered people, and much of the knowledge
was lost...primarly because other societies thaught their own ideals and
beliefs were superior. I have been taught the ways of the Irish Druids,
by my grandmother, who was taught by her grandmother, ect... We have
passed the ancient knowledge down for over 1400 years (if not more), if
what I've been told can be believed. I agree that there are many types of
Druidism out there to look at and research. But a person must be
_positive_ that the details they give to others are correct; or that the
research they follow is accurate. I have been taught that we all follow
our own beliefs, anyway. But, if we can just agree to disagree on belief,
then we are in harmony...as Druidism (as _I_ learned it) teaches.
Still friends? :)
Bree/Brood
Wyrm
Greetings.
"G. Jones" <gwj...@u.washington.edu> spake thus:
>On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Wyrm wrote:
>> They're more akin to shamans though aren't they (or maybe a transition from
>> shaman to priest).
> Hoo boy...no, they're not akin to shamans. They're very different.
>Lot's of people make that mistake....shamans have do do with nature
>worship, and spirits and stuff like that....druidism, at least the Welsh
>format, is different.
> Druids, of the Welsh variety, are not nature worshippers, though many
>seem to think they are. They hold the natural world in awe, etc, but they
>do not worship it as such.
In otherwords, they are akin to shamans, and are a transition between
shamanism and a priesthood. N.B. I am not saying they are shamans, and the
shamans I am referring to (that they are akin to) are the Norse shamans.
>> It's from them that we get the custom of hanging up mistletoe, though it
>> has gone through many transitions since Celtic days and does not mean quite
>> the same anymore!
> *laugh* Considering it's use in Celtic human sacrifice, I'd have to say
>it has definitely changed! :)
Exactly!
Wyrm
Greetings.
"G. Jones" <gwj...@u.washington.edu> spake thus:
The only Druids I recognise are those who speak the original language...
and lived in the original times!
Batty
"G. Jones" <gwj...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
- Gwyrragedd grins broadly at the bat. "Batty," she says, "In my world,
-bats dinnae speak English. That seems a mite odd tae me.
They probably can, but can't be bothered. It causes too many hassles with
humans who suddenly find they're not the only speaking people.
- But I thank ye
-for tha' offer, as yuir one o' tha' few no' offering spells tae make me
-life better...just good company.
Magic? Not me! I'm just an ordinary boring fruitbat. There's nothing
magically special about me.
- Maybe I'll show up an' wreak a little
-havock..."she chuckles.
My havok could do with a little wreaking. Any time you feel the need...
just follow the smell of fruit and you'll be there.
Batty
____________________________________
dwhi...@spam-off.lisp.com.au http://www.usn.blaze.net.au/~batty/
I know this might sound strange, but all I want is a normal life
This is serious, Mum.
Sam
On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, G. Jones wrote:
> for many, many years to become a druid. When I'm done, I have to go back
> to Anglesey, and take some very harsh tests. If I pass, I get a brand....I
And I thought wanting to be tattooed was excessive... ;)
> don't expect to become a druid 'till my forties. So, I sometimes get a
> little antsy about the varous versions of druids there are out there (me
> and the AFD do not get along)....so 'scuse my skepticism. You may well be
AFD... hrm... you can't mean this place, maybe alt.fan.druids? ;)
> a druid in your version of the religion, but I doubt you are in my
> version....:)
Perhaps you need to use a more specific word than "druid", which is really
pretty much a common-noun rather than a specific designation. (Similarly
"Reverend", for example Reverend Donwulff, who, well... ;)
Er, what I'm getting at is, what's the name for the religion? ;) And do
the various people (for example, the guy who calls himself King Arthur and
was arrested [judge threw out the charges] for carrying Excalibur in a
public place or something...) who the press calls "druids" generally fit
with your strict version, or is it just any old person who dresses up in
robes and waves a sickle menacingly in the direction of innocent bushes ;)
--quen is a Druid...
(High Druid of Stuff, I think... unless I'm getting confused w/ the
titles for that ;)
G. Jones
On 24 Nov 1997, Brood wrote:
> No need to take the offensive.<g> I am not trying to change your beliefs
> or ideals. I am merely saying that we are all taught differently, mostly
> because the Celts were very scattered people, and much of the knowledge
> was lost...primarly because other societies thaught their own ideals and
> beliefs were superior. I have been taught the ways of the Irish Druids,
> by my grandmother, who was taught by her grandmother, ect... We have
> passed the ancient knowledge down for over 1400 years (if not more), if
> what I've been told can be believed. I agree that there are many types of
> Druidism out there to look at and research. But a person must be
> _positive_ that the details they give to others are correct; or that the
> research they follow is accurate. I have been taught that we all follow
> our own beliefs, anyway. But, if we can just agree to disagree on belief,
> then we are in harmony...as Druidism (as _I_ learned it) teaches.
>
> Still friends? :)
*laugh* Hey, I wasn't picking a fight, or anything, I'm just naturally
argumentative....besides, like I explained, it's the too close to my
beliefs for comfort ideal....I have no problem with your beliefs, but I
might get prickly by instinct...:) Still friends.
-Gwynedd
G. Jones
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Wyrm wrote:
> In otherwords, they are akin to shamans, and are a transition between
> shamanism and a priesthood. N.B. I am not saying they are shamans, and the
> shamans I am referring to (that they are akin to) are the Norse shamans.
Ighnnnnnn...I don't know much about the Norse shamans, myself, so I
can't make a judgement on that either way...I just get jumpy when people
compare the two, because there are far fewer similarities than people seem
to think. Too many people call druids 'Celtic shamans' of which they
definitely are not....*laugh* For all I know, your statement is perfectly
well founded, since I know jack-all about the Norse shamans, except the
way they sacrificed women...
-Gwynedd
G. Jones
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Wyrm wrote:
> The only Druids I recognise are those who speak the original language...
> and lived in the original times!
So are the only Christian priests you recognize the original Catholic
ones?
-Gwynedd
G. Jones
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Batty wrote:
> They probably can, but can't be bothered. It causes too many hassles with
> humans who suddenly find they're not the only speaking people.
Gwyrragedd laughs..."Batty, I'm no' a human....an' I've known soom
bats. Trust me, they dinnae speak English."
> My havok could do with a little wreaking. Any time you feel the need...
> just follow the smell of fruit and you'll be there.
Gwyrragedd raises her eyebrows at this comment, but just smiles in
response.
-Gwyrragedd Annwn
G. Jones
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Sam wrote:
> And I thought wanting to be tattooed was excessive... ;)
*grin* Tattoos are great...I'd cover my body in them if I had the
money...and didn't want to get a straight job...;)
> AFD... hrm... you can't mean this place, maybe alt.fan.druids? ;)
American Federation of Druids. *shudder* Very loosey goosey on their
requirements....
> Perhaps you need to use a more specific word than "druid", which is really
> pretty much a common-noun rather than a specific designation. (Similarly
> "Reverend", for example Reverend Donwulff, who, well... ;)
Well, within my version of the religion, there are more specific
terms...for example, at this point, I'm tehnically a bard. But when I'm
speaking of it, I usually use the term: traditional Welsh druidism. This
basically means that we follow the old ways as much as possible for this
day and age, and as much as we know (lots of knowledge about the druids
has been irrevocably lost, unfortunately).
>
> Er, what I'm getting at is, what's the name for the religion? ;) And do
> the various people (for example, the guy who calls himself King Arthur and
> was arrested [judge threw out the charges] for carrying Excalibur in a
> public place or something...) who the press calls "druids" generally fit
> with your strict version, or is it just any old person who dresses up in
> robes and waves a sickle menacingly in the direction of innocent bushes ;)
>
*laugh* Well, some people would consider your decription all it take to
be a druid....say you'rw one, and you are. I sort of look askance at
people who claim to just be druids with no training...but I guess if they
want to call thermselves that. I suppose it's the equivalent of
peoplesending in a matchbook cover and becoming a Christian priest. A
'real' priest, who has done alot of hard schooling and tests, might be a
little suspicious of that, but hey....which is why I try to use the term
'traditional Welsh druidism'.
-Gwynedd
Sam
On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, G. Jones wrote:
> > The only Druids I recognise are those who speak the original language...
> > and lived in the original times!
>
> So are the only Christian priests you recognize the original Catholic
> ones?
Er, the Apostles, surely...
--quen :)
Wyrm
Greetings.
"G. Jones" <gwj...@u.washington.edu> spake thus:
>On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Wyrm wrote:
>> The only Druids I recognise are those who speak the original language...
>> and lived in the original times!
> So are the only Christian priests you recognize the original Catholic
>ones?
Yup, I'm afraid so. I tend to call the 'modern' versions neo-priests (and
neo-druids). I also am exceptionally sceptical of those who call themselves
'pagans', mainly because the word has never referred to a particular
religion or way of life (rather it meant not christian).
N.B. There is a difference between calling oneself a Druid, and saying that
one follows the customs and traditions of the Druids.
Wyrm - Then I'm sceptical of all religions.
Alan Lewis Sauer
G. Jones wrote:
: On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Wyrm wrote:
: > The only Druids I recognise are those who speak the original language...
: > and lived in the original times!
: So are the only Christian priests you recognize the original Catholic
: ones?
Actually, if you think about it, the _original_ Christian religious
leaders were . . . I dunno, what would you call them, cell leaders?
Didn't actually develop an aboveground hierarchy till Constantine, did
they?
------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Sauer als...@bingen.cs.csbsju.edu
"To follow knowledge, like a sinking star,/Beyond the utmost bound
of human thought." -- from "Ulysses," by Alfred, Lord Tennyson
G. Jones
On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Wyrm wrote:
> Yup, I'm afraid so. I tend to call the 'modern' versions neo-priests (and
> neo-druids). I also am exceptionally sceptical of those who call themselves
> 'pagans', mainly because the word has never referred to a particular
> religion or way of life (rather it meant not christian).
*laugh* An amusing way fo doing things...admittedly, I'm not claiming
to be much like the original druids...we know too little about them, and
frankly, being female, I would have never got in way back when. But
neo-druid sounds so dorky! *laugh* Usually I just saying I'm following the
path of traditional Welsh druidism (to differentiate it from other types
of druidism), but way dowen the line, when I actually do reach my vaunted
goal, I will call myself a druid, and not a neo-druid. Times change, as do
the uses of words. If we insisted on using the original meanings to all
words, we'd have some mighty big mix-ups in language...either that, or a
huge section in the dictionary under the prefix neo-!
As for pagans, well, it's a good handle, since we AREN'T all one
religion. It's a group name for a variety of different religions, and so
seem very appropriate to me.
-Gwynedd
G. Jones
On 25 Nov 1997, Alan Lewis Sauer wrote:
> Actually, if you think about it, the _original_ Christian religious
> leaders were . . . I dunno, what would you call them, cell leaders?
> Didn't actually develop an aboveground hierarchy till Constantine, did
> they?
I think Quen suggested the apostles....that's the very, very original
I'd guess, unless you want to go all the way to Jesus. But as Wyrm says he
calls all priests nowadays neo-priests...*snicker* I just find that so
funny....he must have to explain an awful lot....
-Gwynedd
G. Jones
On 26 Nov 1997, Alan Lewis Sauer wrote:
> : I think Quen suggested the apostles....that's the very, very original
> : I'd guess, unless you want to go all the way to Jesus.
>
> Nah, I don't go all the way on the first post. :)
Ooh, but this is your second....can I just get my hand in your shirt,
then? ;)
> I s'pose I'm a neo-writer, then, since I'm not Assyrian or whoever
> were the ones who invented it. :)
*laugh* Ayup. I would be a neo-typist, myself....only born in 1975,
after all...
-Gwynedd
Sam
On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, G. Jones wrote:
> I think Quen suggested the apostles....that's the very, very original
> I'd guess, unless you want to go all the way to Jesus. But as Wyrm says he
> calls all priests nowadays neo-priests...*snicker* I just find that so
> funny....he must have to explain an awful lot....
Wyrm probably also calls all drivers neo-drivers (because they drive cars
rather than horses and carriages). Computers are neo-computers (they use
digital rather than analogue circuitry and you don't program them with
dials and switches), radios are neo-radios (they have FM...), etc.... ;)
j/k
--quen
Alan Lewis Sauer
G. Jones wrote:
: On 25 Nov 1997, Alan Lewis Sauer wrote:
: > Actually, if you think about it, the _original_ Christian religious
: > leaders were . . . I dunno, what would you call them, cell leaders?
: > Didn't actually develop an aboveground hierarchy till Constantine, did
: > they?
: I think Quen suggested the apostles....that's the very, very original
: I'd guess, unless you want to go all the way to Jesus.
Nah, I don't go all the way on the first post. :)
: But as Wyrm says he
: calls all priests nowadays neo-priests...*snicker* I just find that so
: funny....he must have to explain an awful lot....
I s'pose I'm a neo-writer, then, since I'm not Assyrian or whoever
were the ones who invented it. :)
Alan Lewis Sauer
G. Jones wrote:
: On 26 Nov 1997, Alan Lewis Sauer wrote:
: > : I think Quen suggested the apostles....that's the very, very
: > : original I'd guess, unless you want to go all the way to Jesus.
: > Nah, I don't go all the way on the first post. :)
: Ooh, but this is your second....can I just get my hand in your shirt,
: then? ;)
You don't know where it's been. :)
: > I s'pose I'm a neo-writer, then, since I'm not Assyrian or whoever
: > were the ones who invented it. :)
: *laugh* Ayup. I would be a neo-typist, myself....only born in 1975,
: after all...
"That make me a neo-dragon? Like Neo Bahamut in that video game you're
so fond of?"
I certainly hope not. That's a particularly hideously-rendered dragon.
"I know. What is _with_ those things that look like the jet intakes
on those old Transformers planes?"
Got me, but I think we've managed to lose our audience.
Wyrm
Greetings.
"G. Jones" <gwj...@u.washington.edu> spake thus:
>On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Wyrm wrote:
>of druidism), but way dowen the line, when I actually do reach my vaunted
>goal, I will call myself a druid, and not a neo-druid. Times change, as do
>the uses of words. If we insisted on using the original meanings to all
>words, we'd have some mighty big mix-ups in language...either that, or a
>huge section in the dictionary under the prefix neo-!
Neo-Roman and neo-Greek for example? Though the definitions in the
dictionary of Roman and Greek still show that those words mean inhabitants
of Rome and Greece respectively. As words change, they're usage is recorded
in the dictionary. As far as I know the definition of Druid has not
changed.
What I am really ticked off about are those who become Druids because it's
'cool' or what have you. If it is a case of 'acting as the Druids did in
order to discover more about them' then I'm all for it.
> As for pagans, well, it's a good handle, since we AREN'T all one
>religion. It's a group name for a variety of different religions, and so
>seem very appropriate to me.
ut not when they are pushing it as a particular new-age religion it
isn't.
Wyrm.
Wyrm
Greetings.
"G. Jones" <gwj...@u.washington.edu> spake thus:
>On 26 Nov 1997, Alan Lewis Sauer wrote:
>> I s'pose I'm a neo-writer, then, since I'm not Assyrian or whoever
>> were the ones who invented it. :)
> *laugh* Ayup. I would be a neo-typist, myself....only born in 1975,
>after all...
You're all just a bunch of neo-humans anyway!
Batty
"G. Jones" <gwj...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
-> They probably can, but can't be bothered. It causes too many hassles
-> with humans who suddenly find they're not the only speaking people.
- Gwyrragedd laughs..."Batty, I'm no' a human....an' I've known soom
-bats. Trust me, they dinnae speak English."
The little bug-eaters aren't as smart as fruitbats. 8)
Batty
_______________________________________________________________
dwhi...@spamoff.crt.net.au http://www.usn.blaze.net.au/~batty/
Donwulff
In article
<Pine.HPP.3.95L.97112...@tw800.eng.cam.ac.uk>,
sm...@cam.ac.uk wrote:
> Perhaps you need to use a more specific word than "druid", which is really
> pretty much a common-noun rather than a specific designation. (Similarly
> "Reverend", for example Reverend Donwulff, who, well... ;)
And just what, pray tell, is wrong with that?
-Reverend Donwulff the Dark, ULC, Discordian (Dragonic Cabal)
Yes, there are two paths you can go by / But in the long run /
There's still time to change the road you're on. / And it makes me wonder.
This .sig dedicated to the memory of Lisa McPherson,
http://www.primenet.com/~cultxpt/lisa.htm
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
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G. Jones
On 26 Nov 1997, Alan Lewis Sauer wrote:
> : Ooh, but this is your second....can I just get my hand in your shirt,
> : then? ;)
>
> You don't know where it's been. :)
*blink, blink* What, my hand or your shirt? Kinky....;)
> "That make me a neo-dragon? Like Neo Bahamut in that video game you're
> so fond of?"
>
> I certainly hope not. That's a particularly hideously-rendered dragon.
>
> "I know. What is _with_ those things that look like the jet intakes
> on those old Transformers planes?"
>
> Got me, but I think we've managed to lose our audience.
Oh, PBHTBHT! I liked Neo-Bahamut (sp?), it's cool looking...especially
the head...which is the red one? Is that plain old Bahamut? With the kick
ass wings?
-Gwynedd
G. Jones
On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, Wyrm wrote:
> Neo-Roman and neo-Greek for example? Though the definitions in the
> dictionary of Roman and Greek still show that those words mean inhabitants
> of Rome and Greece respectively. As words change, they're usage is recorded
> in the dictionary. As far as I know the definition of Druid has not
> changed.
I think, since there's a very serious religion nowadays that takes that
name in usage, that it has.
> What I am really ticked off about are those who become Druids because it's
> 'cool' or what have you. If it is a case of 'acting as the Druids did in
> order to discover more about them' then I'm all for it.
*laugh* American Federation of Druids folks. Become a druid in just
three easy courses! Yeah, that's a major pain....if something is a
religion, it should be a major part of your belief systems, and your life,
I persoanlly think! This is a big committment in my life, to a great deal
of learning. When (if!) I ever actually become a druid, I take that as a
very serious responsibility.....not just because I look good in a robe and
hood. ;)
> ut not when they are pushing it as a particular new-age religion it
> isn't.
Well, since the word hasn't been used for a religion before, why not
use it for a new one? Since you object to using old words....
-Gwynedd
Wyrm
Greetings.
"G. Jones" <gwj...@u.washington.edu> spake thus:
>On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, Wyrm wrote:
>> Neo-Roman and neo-Greek for example? Though the definitions in the
>> dictionary of Roman and Greek still show that those words mean inhabitants
>> of Rome and Greece respectively. As words change, they're usage is recorded
>> in the dictionary. As far as I know the definition of Druid has not
>> changed.
> I think, since there's a very serious religion nowadays that takes that
>name in usage, that it has.
Unfortunately, this leads to a confusion of terms. It also leads to a
blurring of historical accuracy. This is why I call the modern Druids
neo-Druids in order to distinguish them from the originals. Modern
Druidical practices are loosely based on, but aren't the same as, the
ancient religious beliefs. Unfortunately, as is always the way, they have
been reinterpreted (and watered down somewhat) and don't carry the same
meaning as they used to.
>> What I am really ticked off about are those who become Druids because it's
>> 'cool' or what have you. If it is a case of 'acting as the Druids did in
>> order to discover more about them' then I'm all for it.
> *laugh* American Federation of Druids folks. Become a druid in just
>three easy courses! Yeah, that's a major pain....if something is a
>religion, it should be a major part of your belief systems, and your life,
>I persoanlly think! This is a big committment in my life, to a great deal
>of learning. When (if!) I ever actually become a druid, I take that as a
>very serious responsibility.....not just because I look good in a robe and
>hood. ;)
I'm glad to hear it. However, please don't be miffed if I insist on
referring to you as a neo-Druid (it's better that what I call those who
claim to be Druids because it's cool)!
>> ut not when they are pushing it as a particular new-age religion it
>> isn't.
> Well, since the word hasn't been used for a religion before, why not
>use it for a new one? Since you object to using old words....
However, the [old] word 'pagan' has a very good definition, and refers to
many religious belief systems (basically anything that was non-christian
during its expansion phase). Most of these so called 'pagans' call
themselves such because they think it specifically refers to the Celtic
religion of the Earth Mother and they think it is 'cool' to associate
themselves with that. The rest don't call themselves 'pagans' as they
actually know what they believe in.
Sam
On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, Donwulff wrote:
> > Perhaps you need to use a more specific word than "druid", which is really
> > pretty much a common-noun rather than a specific designation. (Similarly
> > "Reverend", for example Reverend Donwulff, who, well... ;)
>
> And just what, pray tell, is wrong with that?
>
> -Reverend Donwulff the Dark, ULC, Discordian (Dragonic Cabal)
Well, Donwulff, everybody knows you're not a REAL reverend. In fact you're
out to capture and brainwash innocent suckers into paying you lots of
money for dubious "religious secrets" you made up yourself from rehashed
B-movies. What's more you use all sorts of tactics from high-paid lawyers
to Internet attacks in an attempt to stifle the voices of those who try to
disabuse the suckers before they boost your profit margins. In fact, your
religion was even banned (almost) in Germany.
Or did I get the sides confused here...? ;)
--quen
Sam
On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, Wyrm wrote:
> However, the [old] word 'pagan' has a very good definition, and refers to
> many religious belief systems (basically anything that was non-christian
> during its expansion phase). Most of these so called 'pagans' call
> themselves such because they think it specifically refers to the Celtic
> religion of the Earth Mother and they think it is 'cool' to associate
> themselves with that. The rest don't call themselves 'pagans' as they
> actually know what they believe in.
Yes, but "pagan" (or "neo-pagan") is a group term for all the similar
new-agey religions, and there are such a ludicrous number (especially ones
that have just been made up recently) that a group term is rather useful.
"Pagan" does accurately mean "any non-christian religion" according to the
dictionary, but it was taken to mean "the old religions" [that we're
referring to... there are lots of other old religions too, but I mean the
religion/s of Britain etc. before Christianity] or whatever, because that
would have been what it was used to refer to, originally. Then people
today, I assumed, used the same term. (Even though they don't have the
same religions, but only something based loosely on what some people think
the old religions were like.)
--quen
G. Jones
On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, Wyrm wrote:
> Unfortunately, this leads to a confusion of terms. It also leads to a
> blurring of historical accuracy. This is why I call the modern Druids
> neo-Druids in order to distinguish them from the originals. Modern
> Druidical practices are loosely based on, but aren't the same as, the
> ancient religious beliefs. Unfortunately, as is always the way, they have
> been reinterpreted (and watered down somewhat) and don't carry the same
> meaning as they used to.
Hrrrm...it depends on what you mean by watered down. Truly, the
religion is not the same as it was....but I think modern forms of druidim
as just as powerful as the older forms, if in a different way. I have no
problem calling Cathlic priests these day just that, and I see no rpoblem
with calling modern Druids the same. But to each his own.
> I'm glad to hear it. However, please don't be miffed if I insist on
> referring to you as a neo-Druid (it's better that what I call those who
> claim to be Druids because it's cool)!
Hey, you can call me what you like...I may not answer to it, but...;)
What do you call the poser druids, as it were?
> However, the [old] word 'pagan' has a very good definition, and refers to
> many religious belief systems (basically anything that was non-christian
> during its expansion phase). Most of these so called 'pagans' call
> themselves such because they think it specifically refers to the Celtic
> religion of the Earth Mother and they think it is 'cool' to associate
> themselves with that. The rest don't call themselves 'pagans' as they
> actually know what they believe in.
*shrug* I think it's not so cut and dry. I refer to myself
occaisionally as a pagan, or neo-pagan, when I'm dealing with someone who
may have no concept of what traditional Welsh druidism is, but knows about
the pagan community. Like or not, that word is in common usuage for the
group of religions out there, it was long before I came on the scene
certainly. If I can tell someone I'm a pagan, and they go, "oh, yeah...",
then that gives me a foothold into explaining my particular brand. I've
met very few pagans who use the term exclusively, to refer to one
religion.
-Gwynedd
G. Jones
On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, Sam wrote:
> Yes, but "pagan" (or "neo-pagan") is a group term for all the similar
> new-agey religions, and there are such a ludicrous number (especially ones
> that have just been made up recently) that a group term is rather useful.
>
> "Pagan" does accurately mean "any non-christian religion" according to the
> dictionary, but it was taken to mean "the old religions" [that we're
> referring to... there are lots of other old religions too, but I mean the
> religion/s of Britain etc. before Christianity] or whatever, because that
> would have been what it was used to refer to, originally. Then people
> today, I assumed, used the same term. (Even though they don't have the
> same religions, but only something based loosely on what some people think
> the old religions were like.)
ACTUALLY, ther term pagan means any group that is not Christian,
Jewish, or Islamic....but other than that, I agree...;)
-Gwynedd
Cerulean
"G. Jones" <gwj...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> Hrrrm...it depends on what you mean by watered down. Truly, the
>religion is not the same as it was....but I think modern forms of druidim
>as just as powerful as the older forms, if in a different way. I have no
>problem calling Cathlic priests these day just that, and I see no rpoblem
>with calling modern Druids the same. But to each his own.
With the various branches of Christianity, there has been a more or
less continuous descendancy, with traditions passed down directly. I
doubt that there are any surviving direct-descendant Druids; anyone
who practices the religion has to have dug it up and adopted it. It's
like converting to the religion of the Ancient Egyptians. Having said
this, I must say that I respect the latter philosophy more, since it
represents deciding for yourself what you believe in, rather than
accepting what you're fed. It would be so much easier just to be what
your parents are, but to look for a truly kindred spirit among the
foreign or long-dead takes a thinker.
>> I'm glad to hear it. However, please don't be miffed if I insist on
>> referring to you as a neo-Druid (it's better that what I call those who
>> claim to be Druids because it's cool)!
> Hey, you can call me what you like...I may not answer to it, but...;)
>What do you call the poser druids, as it were?
Masons.
A friend has this book, "Mysterious Places" or some such, and I was
reading in it about Stonehenge. Stonehenge was very likely not built
by Druids. But there are self-called "Druids" who regularly go to
Stonehenge and chant and things, claiming to be descended from the
original Druids, when in fact they are a splinter group of the
Freemasons.
>> However, the [old] word 'pagan' has a very good definition, and refers to
>> many religious belief systems (basically anything that was non-christian
>> during its expansion phase). Most of these so called 'pagans' call
>> themselves such because they think it specifically refers to the Celtic
>> religion of the Earth Mother and they think it is 'cool' to associate
>> themselves with that. The rest don't call themselves 'pagans' as they
>> actually know what they believe in.
There are plenty of people, myself included, who use the word "pagan"
to describe themselves, meaning nothing more than "not Christian," and
rather proud of just that alone.
I believe the word originally meant "civilian," and was used by the
first Christian "soldiers" to mean anyone who wasn't them (even, for
instance, Roman soldiers). That militaristic attitude still survives
today in certain facets of some religons descended from Christianity,
which is why people like me who have no need of organized religions
are proud to be "pagan," especially in context of the intended
negative meaning used by many Christians.
Sorry if I have offended anyone, but this was a religious discussion
before I came in, so nobody should be surprised.
--
___vvz /( Cerulean=Kevin Pease DC.D/? fs+h+ CB^P a$m++d+++l*WL++*g-e!i
<__,` Z / ( Art! > http://home.earthlink.net/~kpease/cerulean/index.html
`~~~) )Z) ( FDDmp4adwsA+++$C*D>+HM-P-R+T+++WZ?Sm# RLAac++dwd+e++i+p--sm#
/ (7 ( swepV-- sassa)u!Jd snoua^eJ woJj sJa+suow 7nj!+neaq 6u!n)saJ
Brood
In article <65lg8q$4...@argentina.earthlink.net>, kpe...@earthlink.net
(Cerulean) wrote:
> Masons.
(ROTFL) Good one, my friend...WELL SAID!
>
> A friend has this book, "Mysterious Places" or some such, and I was
> reading in it about Stonehenge. Stonehenge was very likely not built
> by Druids.
This is correct, in several sources scattered throughout the known world.
Stonehenge is said to have been built by some long forgotten tribe of the
Russian Steppes, and that the tribe who defeated them took Stonehenge
(each peice, but it _never_ says anywhere how it was moved) as their
trophy. Stated in several works by such cultures as Byzantine, Babalonian
<sp?>, and Egyptian, the structure of Stonehenge was moved as a trophy of
war from one land to another... some twenty-five times. One of the
greatest finds of modern science to unlocking it's mysterious placement is
close in the making. They recently have confirmed that Stonehenge was
created in some 400 years before the Egyptian Empire was formed.
But there are self-called "Druids" who regularly go to
> Stonehenge and chant and things, claiming to be descended from the
> original Druids, when in fact they are a splinter group of the
> Freemasons.
True enough, Winston Churchill himself, was counted among them.
>
> >> However, the [old] word 'pagan' has a very good definition, and refers to
> >> many religious belief systems (basically anything that was non-christian
> >> during its expansion phase). Most of these so called 'pagans' call
> >> themselves such because they think it specifically refers to the Celtic
> >> religion of the Earth Mother and they think it is 'cool' to associate
> >> themselves with that. The rest don't call themselves 'pagans' as they
> >> actually know what they believe in.
Sad, but true.
>
> There are plenty of people, myself included, who use the word "pagan"
> to describe themselves, meaning nothing more than "not Christian," and
> rather proud of just that alone.
>
> I believe the word originally meant "civilian," and was used by the
> first Christian "soldiers" to mean anyone who wasn't them (even, for
> instance, Roman soldiers). That militaristic attitude still survives
> today in certain facets of some religons descended from Christianity,
> which is why people like me who have no need of organized religions
> are proud to be "pagan," especially in context of the intended
> negative meaning used by many Christians.
Well said, stand up for your freedom of belief!
>
> Sorry if I have offended anyone, but this was a religious discussion
> before I came in, so nobody should be surprised.
Let them be, if someone _is_ offended...I want to know who's holding the
gun to their head making them read it?
>
> --
~The Brood - Wishing that people could understand that each person has
their own beliefs and ideals anyway.
--
Brood (Bree Pickett bpic...@oz.net.to.to)
DC.D f s+ h++ CDB*(pulsing stars) a++++ $-- m** d--- WL++*
Fr---- L21,120f(elf 6.5f) BP/Hydrogen e! g- i-! u+
Traveller of the night sky
------------------------------------------------------------
In rememberance... for a lover of Dragons
------------------------------------------------------------
A poem is like a kaleidascope, everyone sees something different within.
~Anonymous
Shimmer the encompassing spirit
DC.D(spirit) f:none s h--- CTLa a++++ $-- m d+++ WL++** Fr---
L<21,000>f B:love, friendship, hope, and joy e+++ g- i- U---
"I breath upon any who encounter me."
Draco Draconis Ebenium
Batty <dwhi...@SPAMAWAY.crt.net.au> wrote in article
<65gvp7$f...@news1.zippo.com>...
> "G. Jones" <gwj...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> -> They probably can, but can't be bothered. It causes too many hassles
> -> with humans who suddenly find they're not the only speaking people.
>
> - Gwyrragedd laughs..."Batty, I'm no' a human....an' I've known soom
> -bats. Trust me, they dinnae speak English."
>
> The little bug-eaters aren't as smart as fruitbats. 8)
>
"I won't ask you your opinion of the Mexican blood drinkers, then," says
Ebony, sticking his head (and the rest of him -- he's not Naz) in from
another topic. "How hang's it, Murcielagito? All well and good in the
Bush? Not hanging from any trees near the river, I hope. I understand
that Aussie crocs have a taste for fruit bat."
--
Draco Draconis Ebenium | "Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons,
aka Ebony the Black Dragon | for you are chewy and taste great
known to the Human Race as | dipped in chocolate."
Aaron F. Johnson | -- Anonymous
eb...@cyberramp.net |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
I'm a Black Dragon, trapped in a White Man's Body -- YARK!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
"Surreality just got funky!" -- Scud, the Disposable Assassin
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Nobody WANTS my opinions!
Wyrm
Greetings.
kpe...@earthlink.net (Cerulean) spake thus:
>this, I must say that I respect the latter philosophy more, since it
>represents deciding for yourself what you believe in, rather than
>accepting what you're fed. It would be so much easier just to be what
>your parents are, but to look for a truly kindred spirit among the
>foreign or long-dead takes a thinker.
However, it takes sheer inspiration to form ones own beliefs for oneself
without taking cues from history.
>>> I'm glad to hear it. However, please don't be miffed if I insist on
>>> referring to you as a neo-Druid (it's better that what I call those who
>>> claim to be Druids because it's cool)!
>> Hey, you can call me what you like...I may not answer to it, but...;)
>>What do you call the poser druids, as it were?
>Masons.
Well, I call them the same thing actually! :8)
>A friend has this book, "Mysterious Places" or some such, and I was
>reading in it about Stonehenge. Stonehenge was very likely not built
>by Druids. But there are self-called "Druids" who regularly go to
>Stonehenge and chant and things, claiming to be descended from the
>original Druids, when in fact they are a splinter group of the
>Freemasons.
Yup. Stonehenge is older than the Druidic culture. It was built in phases
as well. There is also no direct evidence that Druids actually used the
place, it was just associated with them out of lack of understanding and
it's stuck ever since.
The only true [neo-]Druids are those of the Gafodd (not AFoD or CAFoD).
>There are plenty of people, myself included, who use the word "pagan"
>to describe themselves, meaning nothing more than "not Christian," and
>rather proud of just that alone.
That is fine (it actually means one not of the main religions these days).
>I believe the word originally meant "civilian," and was used by the
>first Christian "soldiers" to mean anyone who wasn't them (even, for
>instance, Roman soldiers). That militaristic attitude still survives
>today in certain facets of some religons descended from Christianity,
>which is why people like me who have no need of organized religions
>are proud to be "pagan," especially in context of the intended
>negative meaning used by many Christians.
It's a bit like heathen (which is more derogatory). That originally meant
'one who lived on the heath'. These days it means the same as pagan.
Organisation is only a transitory moment in a sea of chaos.
>Sorry if I have offended anyone, but this was a religious discussion
>before I came in, so nobody should be surprised.
Wyrm - One only takes offence when one becomes uncertain.
Sam
On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, G. Jones wrote:
> certainly. If I can tell someone I'm a pagan, and they go, "oh, yeah...",
> then that gives me a foothold into explaining my particular brand. I've
I thought you didn't have it yet :)
--quen [who agrees, btw, but that should be obvious from previous post]
Sam
On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, G. Jones wrote:
> ACTUALLY, ther term pagan means any group that is not Christian,
> Jewish, or Islamic....but other than that, I agree...;)
Oh blah. :) I thought I was supposed to be the pedantic one... :)
--quen is out-pedantised (don't worry, it's probably temporary)
Sam
On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Cerulean wrote:
> There are plenty of people, myself included, who use the word "pagan"
> to describe themselves, meaning nothing more than "not Christian," and
> rather proud of just that alone.
Really?! You're the first I ever heard of. All the atheists, agnostics,
buddhists, muslims, sikhs, hindus, satanists, etc. I've ever met call
themselves by those names... the only people I've heard refer to
*themselves* as pagans are, well, pagans ;) Or neopagans to use a slightly
more appropriate word which is probably better defined to mean what I want
it to.
However, I have heard people use "pagan" to refer to *other* people as
non-christian, generally in a sort of "random insult" context rather than
one which actually means anything. Reactionaries probably use the term as
a derogatory one also, more seriously.
--quen
G. Jones
On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Cerulean wrote:
> With the various branches of Christianity, there has been a more or
> less continuous descendancy, with traditions passed down directly. I
> doubt that there are any surviving direct-descendant Druids; anyone
> who practices the religion has to have dug it up and adopted it.
There are NO direct descendants of the druids, to my knowledge. If
there were, it would solve alot of mysteries! :)
It's
> like converting to the religion of the Ancient Egyptians. Having said
> this, I must say that I respect the latter philosophy more, since it
> represents deciding for yourself what you believe in, rather than
> accepting what you're fed. It would be so much easier just to be what
> your parents are, but to look for a truly kindred spirit among the
> foreign or long-dead takes a thinker.
>
*laugh* Funny thing is, some people who follow the 'older' religions as
it were, albeit reconstructed versions, are tsught it by their
parents.....for me, I was raised very loosely Christian, with certain
philosophies imparted by my mother. Later on, as an adult I decided what
my mom had taught me that I truly believed in, didn't fit with the
Christianity I saw all around me.....I was almost forced to find my own
religion (atheism has never really been an option for me. I just can't
believe there's nothing out there.)....
> Masons.
>
> A friend has this book, "Mysterious Places" or some such, and I was
> reading in it about Stonehenge. Stonehenge was very likely not built
> by Druids. But there are self-called "Druids" who regularly go to
> Stonehenge and chant and things, claiming to be descended from the
> original Druids, when in fact they are a splinter group of the
> Freemasons.
Wow, there's still people out there that believe Stonehenge was created
by the druids? Actually, I can respect the splinter group of the Masons as
well....after all, they do have to do alot of stuff to get where they
are....unlike alot of pagans you see today, they can't just claim they are
druids out of nowhere...there's a hierarchy, etc....
> I believe the word originally meant "civilian," and was used by the
> first Christian "soldiers" to mean anyone who wasn't them (even, for
> instance, Roman soldiers). That militaristic attitude still survives
> today in certain facets of some religons descended from Christianity,
> which is why people like me who have no need of organized religions
> are proud to be "pagan," especially in context of the intended
> negative meaning used by many Christians.
Another effective use of thr word.
>
> Sorry if I have offended anyone, but this was a religious discussion
> before I came in, so nobody should be surprised.
*laugh* Who on earth did you think you woul offend? It's not like
you're bashing on any religious groups, etc....:)
-Gwynedd
G. Jones
*chuckle* I think we have several of the type in this discussion./..;)
-Gwynedd
G. Jones
On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Cerulean wrote:
> I also say that I'm an agnostic, but too few people know what it
> means. And I've found that the highly devout are _incapable_ of
> understanding what it means.
*laugh* I gotta take umbrage at that one....I consider myself an
intensely religious and devout person....and I know full well what an
agnostic is...I tired it on for size once......as can be seen from this
post, it obviously didn't fit...:)
-Gwynedd
Cerulean
Quen wrote:
Well, the derogatory (and original) usage is really the reason we
(agnostics, atheists, and theistic but free-thinking philosophers) use
it; overtones of sarcasm are usually present. "I'm a pagan" means not
only that I do not subscribe to a certain religion but also that I am
misunderstood by the closed-minded, which, when you think about it, is
sort of a reason to be proud. The fact that others would call me pagan
in hatred means I'm smarter than they are.
I also say that I'm an agnostic, but too few people know what it
means. And I've found that the highly devout are _incapable_ of
understanding what it means.
--
Cerulean
Quen wrote:
>Well, Donwulff, everybody knows you're not a REAL reverend. In fact you're
>out to capture and brainwash innocent suckers into paying you lots of
>money for dubious "religious secrets" you made up yourself from rehashed
>B-movies. What's more you use all sorts of tactics from high-paid lawyers
>to Internet attacks in an attempt to stifle the voices of those who try to
>disabuse the suckers before they boost your profit margins. In fact, your
>religion was even banned (almost) in Germany.
Whoa, fill me in. Do we have a Scientologist reading our newsgroup, or
is there another organization that's just like them? I don't know what
scares me more.
Chris Kennedy
On Sat, 29 Nov 1997 01:38:26 GMT, kpe...@earthlink.net (Cerulean)
wrote:
>I also say that I'm an agnostic, but too few people know what it
>means. And I've found that the highly devout are _incapable_ of
>understanding what it means.
Ugh... want somebody completely misunderstanding your beliefs (or lack
thereof), try telling a devout Christian that you're atheist... ("Oh,
so you deny God." "No. I just don't believe in him." "Yeah, like I
said. You deny the existence of God." "Sure, fine... whatever you
wanna think.") *shrugs* People who only know about other religions
what they've learned in church have some serious problems.
--Chris, typist to Lyr
--
DC.D f++ sRL--- sVR+ h++ CGwK a- $ m d++ WL++* Fr- L20f Bwhatever e++ g- i-!
"In a world full of people, only some want to fly, isn't that crazy?"
--Seal, "Crazy"
psych...@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/4651/
Jukka Tapani Santala
On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, Sam wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, Donwulff wrote:
>>> Perhaps you need to use a more specific word than "druid", which is really
>>> pretty much a common-noun rather than a specific designation. (Similarly
>>> "Reverend", for example Reverend Donwulff, who, well... ;)
>> And just what, pray tell, is wrong with that?
>> -Reverend Donwulff the Dark, ULC, Discordian (Dragonic Cabal)
> out to capture and brainwash innocent suckers into paying you lots of
> money for dubious "religious secrets" you made up yourself from rehashed
> B-movies. What's more you use all sorts of tactics from high-paid lawyers
> to Internet attacks in an attempt to stifle the voices of those who try to
> disabuse the suckers before they boost your profit margins. In fact, your
> religion was even banned (almost) in Germany.
Well. What can I say? At least we aren't evil - and we leave kittens and
dogs alone. Unlike some other *cough* 'Curches' *choke*. *ahem*, please
excuse me ;)
Subject: Seven days to picket
This mail closely follows the outline and content of Thomas Gandow's
originall call on 23rd november. What I've done is mostly just reformat it
better for ASCII. I also replaced the actual letter with the latest
draft.
Dear friends,
if possible, discuss this message and please sign the letter of
condolence to the US-ambassador in Germany.
Please give your condirmation to
Tilman Hausherr <til...@berlin.snafu.de>
Thomas Gandow <gan...@is.in-berlin.de>
A. Call for an International-Freedom-of-Conscience-in-the-US-Rallye in
Clearwater and worldwide.
------------Remember, remember the 5th of December ---------------
------------Lisa McPherson Memorial Day 1997 ---------------------
Dear friends,
we ask you to participate in the
International-Freedom-of-Conscience-in-the-US-Rallye on the 5. of December
1997 in Clearwater.
Go to the Clearwater if you ever can. But do it also on your local or
national level, e.g. at your next Federal Building, US-Embassy or
US-Consulate worldwide.
On the 5. of December 1997, in every state in the US, in country by
country worldwide, people go to every US-embassy, US-consulate or Federal
Building and deliver a letter like this proposed "letter of condolence" to
express concern and condolence to the American people because of the death
of Lisa McPherson, because of the human rights violations committed by the
Scientology-Organization towards American citizens:
B. Letter of condolence
Here the current version of the letter. If you want to co-sign, submit
me your name, and if possible, location & profession. There have been
only slight changes ("US citizens" / "US government" / etc) since the
last posting. I am also delighted that scientology has not disputed the
summary of Lisa's life, which I count as an approval. The next step for
scientology would be 1. to apologize, 2. to make sure that this won't
ever happen again. (Tilman Hausherr)
===
The German / American Citizens Committee on
Human Rights and Religious Freedom in the USA
c/o Dialog Center
Heimat 27
14165 Berlin
Germany
(Draft)
Letter of condolence to the United States Ambassador to Germany
Berlin, December 5, 1997
Dear Sir,
We wish to express our condolences to you and the American people for
the death of Lisa McPherson, who exactly two years ago on December 5,
1995, and to express our concern over the human rights violations
committed by the US headquartered organization known as Scientology
towards its members, including many US citizens.
Lisa McPherson entered Scientology in 1982. She became a model
Scientologist who had paid over $175,000 in her last five years. On
November 18, 1995, she had a minor automobile accident. She behaved
strangely at the scene of the accident, even going so far as to take her
clothes off in the street and to ask for help, and was subsequently
taken to a hospital for a psychological evaluation. Scientologists
quickly got her out of the hospital against the advice of the doctor,
claiming that she would get "rest and relaxation" at the Fort Harrison
Hotel (the "spiritual" headquarters of Scientology in Clearwater, FL).
There, they claimed, she would be able to avoid "the psychs," a
Scientology term for psychologists and psychiatrists, whom
Scientologists hate with a passion.
17 days later, Lisa McPherson was dead at the age of 36.
The autopsy showed that the cause of death was a blood clot which had
been caused by bed rest and severe dehydration; the medical examiner
said that McPherson had gone without fluids for five to ten days and was
unconscious for up to 48 hours before her death; her hands apparently
showed bite marks from cockroaches. The organization of Scientology,
its attorneys and some of its members have stonewalled investigations by
the police, her family, and the press. But documents gathered through a
lawsuit started by her family show that she went through a terrible
ordeal, during which she was held against her will and was illegally
given the potent sedative chloral hydrate without proper medical
supervision, while Scientologist clerks, librarians, and other
non-medical personnel watched her lose her mind and her life. After her
death, fellow Scientologists looted Lisa’s bank account with forged
personal checks.
We wish to express our support for the American people and the American
government in ending human rights violations against US citizens and
other people, committed by the Scientology Organization.
As German friends of the United States of America or as US citizens, we
are concerned that the organization responsible for the tragic death of
Lisa McPherson is trying to damage the German-American friendship for
which we have all worked so very hard during the last decades.
Because of the staunch position the United States takes concerning
human rights worldwide, we call on the American government to confront
and stop human rights violations being committed by Scientology and to
reestablish in the country of democracy the true freedom of life,
speech, religion, personality and pursuit of happiness, which includes:
· Freedom for everyone to speak about his experiences, knowledge and
thoughts in any organization, church or cult, be it religious or not;
· Freedom for members of an organization, church or cult, religious or
not, to leave that organization, without being detained, threatened or
persecuted;
· Freedom from fear of being confronted with material that a religious
or therapeutic organization has obtained through religious or spiritual
counseling; Such material should not be allowed to be used for
publication, litigation, or blackmail;
· Freedom from persecution through Copyright Laws; such laws should not
be used against members who try to support their arguments by citing
"church scriptures" or "spiritual literature" or other texts associated
with the group;
· Full application of law enforcement to prosecute fraud, mental and
physical abuse hidden behind the shield of „religion";
· Refusal / Withdrawal of tax exemptions for secretive organizations, be
they religious or not. Full disclosure of past secret agreements with
the IRS.
The German / American Citizens Committee on Human Rights and Religious
Freedom in the USA Deutsch-amerikanisches Bürgerkomittee für
Menschenrechte und Religionsfreiheit in den USA
P.S.: We express our thanks to the 318 members of Congress opposed the
House Concurrent Resolution 22.
More media Information:
Tampa Channel 28 News, October 14, 1997, 6:00 p.m.
St. Petersburg Times, October 31, 1997
Newsweek, July 21, 1997
The New York Times, March 9, 1997
TIME, May 6, 1991
Signatories in alphabetical order:
Gerry Armstrong, now Canada, artist; Volker Benedikt,
Villingen-Schwenningen, Teacher; Dr. Hans-Ulrich Berndt, Berlin,
director of studies; Jutta Birlenberg, Leverkusen, KIDS e.V.; Carola
Burgtorf, Berlin, Biologin; Ursula Caberta, Hamburg; Joe Cisar,
Cleveland, OH (vietnam veteran); Bernd Donatus, Berlin; Ursula
Dyckhoff, sociologist & urban planner; Thomas Gandow, Berlin, Lutheran
minister; Ute Gandow, Berlin, Housewife; Friedrich Griess, Vienna
(Austria), Engineer; Tilman Hausherr, Berlin, Software Developer;
James Hornsby, CA, Student; Sandra Jamison, USAF AD/DW; Gerald Kluge,
Meissen, Chaplain; Friedrich von Kymmel, Usedom, Lutheran minister;
Winfried Müller, Jena, "religio" database admin; Manfred Neumann,
Berlin, Psychotherapist; Werner Penski, Berlin, Engineer; Christa
Pirwaß, Berlin, sexton; Michael Reinig, Berlin, personnel chief;
Renate Rennebach, Berlin, Member of Parliament (SPD); Günther Ruhs,
Leverkusen; Hiltraut Schierenberg, Berlin; Helmut Schmidt, Berlin,
industrial salesman; Peter Tautfest, Washington, US correspondent for
"taz"; Alfred Weinert, Berlin; Ursula Zöpel, Leverkusen, Teacher
Sign the letter f.e. by the "Local or NN" (=your Country, state or city)
C. TAKE IMMEDIATLY ACTION
We propose the following procedure:
1. START
Read that paper
Start the discussion on the Internet or wherever you can on this
proposal and on the letter of condolence as soon as possible.
Make further recommendations
Come to an agreed upon text for your country or city.
2. PREPARATION
* Communicate the draft of "letter of condolence" , and what will happen
to the press, (in advance, on the 5. of December and after).
* Discuss it open in the Internet, in Press, Churches and political parties
* Communicate it to all logical recipients, e.g.:
- Peace groups,
- human rights groups like Amnesty International
- Internet groups
- Doctors without frontiers (because of maltreatment)
- Womens Lib. Groups
- Freedom of Press (Journalists)
etc.
* Think on local or professional connections to the issue , e.g.
medical, legal and religious professionals =B7 Political parties
* Recruit celebrities for the event
- scholars
- local and regional parliamentarians and politicians
- church leaders and other religious leaders actors
- heads of civil rights organizations
- local bishops, clergy
* Think big about celebrities for the event, even if the time is short.
But why not asking them.
* Prepare a black freedom-of-conscience-ribbon
3. LISA-McPHERSON-MEMORIAL-DAY
* On 5. of December, go to the rally in Clearwater.
* If not possible, on 5. of December go to next US-Embassy or
US-Consulate; in the US, go to the Federal Building in your state.
*_Delivery of the Letter of condolence is, what is called for._*
* If you can not come, simply send the letter by ordinary mail, email or
fax.
* All other ceremonies mentioned below are only done according to local
situation. Our proposal:
- Put the letter in an envelope with a black border.
- Dress in black (or a black thingie on Your arm).
- Come alone, or with friends.
- Come between 11 and 12 am, so maybe you'll have some media attention.
- Do it on friday the 5th, not on saturday.
- Gather in front oft the US-embassy, Consulate or Federal Building
- Have Flowers or a wreath for laying it.
- Have a picture of Lisa McPherson with black ribbon as mourning band in
one edge (available on Internet)
- Have copies of the letter for the media's and passersby.
- Have an American flag with a black ribbon as mourning band.
- Put the picture in front of the embassy, consulate or federal building.
- Lift the flag and bow with the flag to the picture.
- Lay a wreath or place the flowers in front of the picture of Lisa
McPherson.
- Try handing out the letter to the ambassador f.e.
- Send a person, if possible a celebrity, into the embassy give the
letter of condolence to the US-ambassador or the highest ranking person
inside.
- Go out of the building
- Read the letter of condolence as a declaration aloud to the public.
- Lift the US-Flag.
- Leave all together the place.
* Communicate, what has happened to the local press, to the Internet
community and to all who may be concerned.
* Send immediately a report to the ARS-CC(Which does not exist - I
suggest posting a report to alt.religion.scientology instead -Donwulff)
* Send a report and a special message to the Clearwater Committee
(Mail-Address....)
------------Remember, remember the 5th of December ---------------
------------Lisa McPherson Memorial Day 1997 ---------------------
Remember also this:
More than 16 million US-citizen signed the following declaration for
freedom, when they gave the bell of freedom as a gift on the 31.10.1950
to the citizens of Berlin:
"Ich glaube an die Unantastbarkeit und an die Wrde jedes einzelnen
Menschen.
Ich glaube, da allen Menschen von Gott das gleiche Recht auf Freiheit
gegeben wurde.
Ich verspreche, jedem Angriff auf die Freiheit und der Tyrannei Widerstand
zu leisten, wo immer sie auf Erden auftreten werden."
"I believe in the inviolability and in the dignity of every single person.
I believe that God has given all people equal claims to freedom.
I promise to resist tyranny and any attack on freedom, wherever these may
arise on earth."
Yours sincerely,
Thomas Gandow, Pfr.
URL's:
Lisa McPherson memorial: http://www.primenet.com/~cultxpt/lisa.htm
Scientology critical information: http://www.entheta.net
Scientology's official site: http://www.scientology.org
-Rev. Donwulff, ULC, Discordian
Ps. As a private person, and as a member of ULC, I believe in the
inalienable right to Freedom of Religion for all people. However, with
this freedom, comes also the responsibility, to use it wisely and
responsibly - sometimes referred to as Freedom of Religion. In parts of
the world, Scientology is not even considered a religion. This is not the
official position of Universal Life Church.
As far as I'm concerned, these people are free to practice their
_religion_, be it about galactic emperors shipping frozen aliens in DC-8's
to Teegeeack(Earth) for extermination to solve overpopulation in the
empire or not, but at no point should this be allowed to happen on the
cost - psychical or physical - of the parishioners.
Ps2. This is a call for human-rights demonstration against USA for
allowing the so-called Church of Scientology to continue it's
well-documented practice of harassment, stripping its members of basic
human rights and dignity, use of child-labour and other reprehensible
acts. Instead of taking action, the USA authorities have even criticized
Germany for it's actions against the Scientology organization spurned
from Scientologys illegal supression of the Free Zone movement seeking to
practice the Scientology belief outside the "Church's" authorative
stranglehold.
However, should you decide to regardless and instead protest against the
Scientology organization, be informed that at least three cases of
Scientologists physically asaulting people picketing their premises have
been reported recently. If you go against Scientology, never picket alone
- preferably have a strong guy with a video-camera with you - and arrive
and leave the site at the same time.
"Somebody some day will say 'this is illegal'.
By then be sure the orgs say what is legal or not."
-- L. Ron Hubbard, Founder of Scientology, HCOPL 4 January 1966
G. Jones
On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Chris Kennedy wrote:
> Ugh... want somebody completely misunderstanding your beliefs (or lack
> thereof), try telling a devout Christian that you're atheist... ("Oh,
> so you deny God." "No. I just don't believe in him." "Yeah, like I
> said. You deny the existence of God." "Sure, fine... whatever you
> wanna think.") *shrugs* People who only know about other religions
> what they've learned in church have some serious problems.
*laugh* I wouldn't call that misunderstanding atheism, just
interpretting it under their own beliefs....if one truly believes in God,
then an atheist would be denying God's exostance, whether they know it or
not. It's the equivalent of you telling a Christian, "Oh, so you believe
in a fairy tale?" It's rude...but it's not necessarily misunderstanding.
-Gwynedd
G. Jones
On 30 Nov 1997, Alan Lewis Sauer wrote:
>
> Well, presumably you have an idea where your hand's been (like, the
> end of your arm) so logically we'd be talking about my shirt. And
> you _don't_ know where that's been.
Hey, when I haven't been taking my medication I may not know.....oh,
nevermind. ;) Why, are you the type of person that has a tendency to put
your shirt in disgusting places?
> Nuh-uh, the red one's Neo. Plain old Bahamut is the one that comes
> to the enemy, Neo brings the enemy to him, and Bahamut Zero just
> nukes 'em from orbit.
Oh, I like 'em all...:)
-Gwynedd
Chris Kennedy
>On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, Sam wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, Donwulff wrote:
>>>> Perhaps you need to use a more specific word than "druid", which is really
>>>> pretty much a common-noun rather than a specific designation. (Similarly
>>>> "Reverend", for example Reverend Donwulff, who, well... ;)
>>> And just what, pray tell, is wrong with that?
>>> -Reverend Donwulff the Dark, ULC, Discordian (Dragonic Cabal)
>> Well, Donwulff, everybody knows you're not a REAL reverend. In fact you're
>> out to capture and brainwash innocent suckers into paying you lots of
>> money for dubious "religious secrets" you made up yourself from rehashed
>> B-movies. What's more you use all sorts of tactics from high-paid lawyers
>> to Internet attacks in an attempt to stifle the voices of those who try to
>> disabuse the suckers before they boost your profit margins. In fact, your
>> religion was even banned (almost) in Germany.
>
>Well. What can I say? At least we aren't evil - and we leave kittens and
>dogs alone. Unlike some other *cough* 'Curches' *choke*. *ahem*, please
>excuse me ;)
*RaisesEyebrow* What's this about evil churches doing something to
kittens and dogs?
--Lyr
Sam
On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Cerulean wrote:
> >Well, Donwulff, everybody knows you're not a REAL reverend. In fact you're
>
> Whoa, fill me in. Do we have a Scientologist reading our newsgroup, or
> is there another organization that's just like them? I don't know what
> scares me more.
Hrm... you need to keep track of attribution lines (which I deleted above,
but never mind :)
That post was written by me.
Oh, wait... I didn't give you the essential interpretation guide for
everything I write? Sorry. Must have forgot.
Quen hands Cerulean a free pot of salt. "One pinch per post should do the
trick."
:)
--quen
Sam
Cerulean>
> > I also say that I'm an agnostic, but too few people know what it
> > means. And I've found that the highly devout are _incapable_ of
> > understanding what it means.
Really? Hrm... I never came across anyone who didn't know what it meant,
in any of the discussions about religion I've had.
On the other hand, I mostly tend to be talking to university students or
people online, both of which groups are perhaps more knowledgeable than
the average person... (hrm. Not so sure about that :)
What do you mean by that "incapable"? I don't understand how anybody could
be incapable of understanding it... it's a quite simple concept...
--quen
Draco Draconis Ebenium
Sam <sm...@eng.cam.ac.uk> wrote in article
<Pine.HPP.3.95L.97113...@club.eng.cam.ac.uk>...
"I would venture to say that Cerulean meant that the _blindly_ devout are
incapable of understanding what an agnostic is. But, the blindly devout
only believe what they want to believe, and willingly group atheist,
agnostic, and those of other denominations and religions into one large
group; heathen. Damned stupid, if you ask me."
Alan Lewis Sauer
G. Jones wrote:
: On 26 Nov 1997, Alan Lewis Sauer wrote:
: > : Ooh, but this is your second....can I just get my hand in your shirt,
: > : then? ;)
: > You don't know where it's been. :)
: *blink, blink* What, my hand or your shirt? Kinky....;)
Well, presumably you have an idea where your hand's been (like, the
end of your arm) so logically we'd be talking about my shirt. And
you _don't_ know where that's been.
: > "That make me a neo-dragon? Like Neo Bahamut in that video game you're
: > so fond of?"
: > I certainly hope not. That's a particularly hideously-rendered dragon.
: > "I know. What is _with_ those things that look like the jet intakes
: > on those old Transformers planes?"
: > Got me, but I think we've managed to lose our audience.
: Oh, PBHTBHT! I liked Neo-Bahamut (sp?), it's cool looking...especially
: the head...which is the red one? Is that plain old Bahamut? With the kick
: ass wings?
Nuh-uh, the red one's Neo. Plain old Bahamut is the one that comes
to the enemy, Neo brings the enemy to him, and Bahamut Zero just
nukes 'em from orbit.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Sauer als...@bingen.cs.csbsju.edu
"To follow knowledge, like a sinking star,/Beyond the utmost bound
of human thought." -- from "Ulysses," by Alfred, Lord Tennyson
donw...@iki.fi
Lyr, in an apparent fit of madness (Does she know what she's getting
herself into?) asked the following:
>> Well. What can I say? At least we aren't evil - and we leave kittens and
>> dogs alone. Unlike some other *cough* 'Curches' *choke*. *ahem*,
>> please excuse me ;)
> *RaisesEyebrow* What's this about evil churches doing something to
> kittens and dogs?
Thank you for your interest; I'd much like to be able to write a detailed
reply, alas, my time's limited, so instead I'm going to have to direct
you just to a few pages detailing these issues in more detail and finesse
than I could hope to. I thought there was a leaflet on this, alas I
couldn't find one - I'll try to get a word around and have a leaflet on
the issue.
Please note I do not neccessarily agree with all of the sentiments
expressed on these pages, however they do detail actual statements by
parties involved.
Scientologists drown a judges dog to influence judgement?
http://www.xemu.demon.co.uk/clam/faq/woofglug.html
Scientologists attack an animal sanctuary:
http://www.innernet.net/joecisar/ars1104.htm
On the latter one, I'm pleased to announce that due to the generosity of
one Bob Minton, these pets now have a home for the time being -
however... well, let the man tell himself :
Bob also reported his latest assistance - to former Scientologists Vaughn
and Stacy Young, who were harassed by Scientology with a whispering
campaign for keeping and caring for a number of animals in their Seattle
home.
"I am personally happy to have been able to have purchased this property
on Vashon Island which will enable Vaughn and Stacy to continue in their
dual roles of rescuing animals and people from the victimization inflicted
by uncaring humans--be they $cientologists abusing their members or
critics as well as people who no longer have need of a kitty.
"The 'church' of $cientology has already demonstrated their willingness to
try and attack these cats in their new location and have them and the
Youngs eased out of Vashon Island just like they successfully did in West
Seattle. Yes, David Lee--a detective working on behalf of the 'church'
already admitted to having trespassed on the property in a discussion with
a real estate broker who handled this property purchase on my behalf. He
was just 'having a look around'."
Hope this answers your concerns.
-rev. Donwulff, ULC, Discordian, member of Knights of Xenu
Coder, copyright-terrorist and intergalactic arms-dealer.
"To make love - means giving your body for somebody else's pleasure,
and finding yours is foremost in their mind."
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Cerulean
Sam <sm...@eng.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>Oh, wait... I didn't give you the essential interpretation guide for
>everything I write? Sorry. Must have forgot.
>Quen hands Cerulean a free pot of salt. "One pinch per post should do the
>trick."
>--quen
"Oh, um, yeah. Wasn't immediately obvious. When I see anything that
looks like a Scientologist I panic first and ask questions later.
Well, actually, I asked questions immediately, which worked out fine."
:=}
Cerulean
Sam <sm...@eng.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>Cerulean>
>> > I also say that I'm an agnostic, but too few people know what it
>> > means. And I've found that the highly devout are _incapable_ of
>> > understanding what it means.
>What do you mean by that "incapable"? I don't understand how anybody could
>be incapable of understanding it... it's a quite simple concept...
>--quen
Well, to someone who accepts the existence of his or her god as given,
the assertion that it is impossible to know whether a god exists or
not is a little too blurry.
Many Christians think it means "doubting the existence of God" i.e.
faltering in one's belief in Him...which is an very different concept.
Even "unsure if god exists or not" doesn't really cover it.
Batty
"Draco Draconis Ebenium" <eb...@cyberramp.net> wrote:
-> The little bug-eaters aren't as smart as fruitbats. 8)
- "I won't ask you your opinion of the Mexican blood drinkers, then,"
says
-Ebony,
Anyone who knows all the words to the Macarena *must* be a few sandwiches
short of a picnic.
- "How hang's it, Murcielagito?
Wot? <puzzled look> Um. I'm okay.
- All well and good in the
-Bush? Not hanging from any trees near the river, I hope. I understand
-that Aussie crocs have a taste for fruit bat."
They do indeed! But crocs prefer the Tropics so I'm not bothered by them
here. My biggest worry at the moment is bushfires. I haven't seen rain
since August.
Batty
_______________________________________________________________
dwhi...@spamoff.crt.net.au http://www.usn.blaze.net.au/~batty/
I know this might sound strange, but all I want is a normal life
This is serious, Mum.
Chris Kennedy
Ah, but to deny God, _I_ would have to believe in him. It'd be like
saying, "I know God exists, but don't believe in him." It sort of
assumes that everyone really believes in God, it's just that those of
us who don't believe are angry at him or something. It also puts way
too much importance on God to begin with... they don't understand that
he's just as irrelevant to me as Zeus, Santa Claus, etc. =)
--Chris and Lyr (and we won't even go into the "Oh, so you're a
Satanist" response... *Grin*)
G. Jones
On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Cerulean wrote:
> Well, to someone who accepts the existence of his or her god as given,
> the assertion that it is impossible to know whether a god exists or
> not is a little too blurry.
>
> Many Christians think it means "doubting the existence of God" i.e.
> faltering in one's belief in Him...which is an very different concept.
> Even "unsure if god exists or not" doesn't really cover it.
*laugh* I accept the existence of God utterly and totally. But I can
see how some people do not...either believing there is no god, or unsure
of the status of diety. I think most people, regardless of religious
beliefs, with any open mindedness can see that not everyone shares their
beliefs and understand that.
-Gwynedd
Brood
>Gwynedd wrote:
I agree with what you say, Gwynedd. There are those who feel their
religious beliefs are the _ONLY_ way to go; but IMHO, those with an open
mind respect others beliefs because they realise that no person really can
think the exact same way as another. And in the beliefs of the pagans
overall, I've found that the majority are willing and able to accept
anothers religious freedom. I've also found quite a number of others who
do as well, but for the most part (and I'm not bashing or trying to get
flamed here.) I've found that the Christian and Jewish faiths, overall,
are the ones who are the most closed minded of faiths.
--
Brood (Bree Pickett bpic...@oz.net.to.to)
DC.D f s+ h++ CDB*(pulsing stars) a++++ $-- m** d--- WL++*
Fr---- L21,120f(elf 6.5f) BP/Hydrogen e! g- i-! u+
Traveller of the night sky
------------------------------------------------------------
In rememberance... for a lover of Dragons
------------------------------------------------------------
A poem is like a kaleidascope, everyone sees something different within.
~Anonymous
Shimmer the encompassing spirit
DC.D(spirit) f:none s h--- CTLa a++++ $-- m d+++ WL++** Fr---
L<21,000>f B:love, friendship, hope, and joy e+++ g- i- U---
"I breath upon any who encounter me."
Chris Kennedy
On 30 Nov 1997 21:51:16 GMT, bpic...@oz.net (Brood) wrote:
>I agree with what you say, Gwynedd. There are those who feel their
>religious beliefs are the _ONLY_ way to go; but IMHO, those with an open
>mind respect others beliefs because they realise that no person really can
>think the exact same way as another. And in the beliefs of the pagans
>overall, I've found that the majority are willing and able to accept
>anothers religious freedom. I've also found quite a number of others who
>do as well, but for the most part (and I'm not bashing or trying to get
>flamed here.) I've found that the Christian and Jewish faiths, overall,
>are the ones who are the most closed minded of faiths.
I don't know about putting Jewish in with that... most of the Jews
I've met have been a very accepting. Actually, I'll narrow it down
even more... from what I've seen, it's protestants who take the bible
literally who tend to be really closed-minded... Not that I'm saying
all of them are, of course. I know there are probably christians on
here getting mad at me. But especially with the way christians think
they have to tell anyone who doesn't share their religion all about
why we should adds to it a bit. Though I do think that anyone who
believes their religion so strongly that they don't think there could
ever be even the slightest chance that they could possibly be wrong is
always closed minded, no matter what religion. Just seems to be
christians getting that way most often...
--Chris and Lyr
G. Jones
On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Chris Kennedy wrote:
> Ah, but to deny God, _I_ would have to believe in him. It'd be like
> saying, "I know God exists, but don't believe in him." It sort of
> assumes that everyone really believes in God, it's just that those of
> us who don't believe are angry at him or something. It also puts way
> too much importance on God to begin with... they don't understand that
> he's just as irrelevant to me as Zeus, Santa Claus, etc. =)
But it doesn't necessarily follow that denial means a previous
knowledge of...if I met a delusional person, who refused to believe that
oranges existed, everyone would know what I meant if I said that guy was
denying the existance of oranges. He may truly not believe in oranges, but
I can say he's denying them. So a Christian, while maybe assuming that
most people believe in god, is still not necessarily totally incorrect in
sying you deny the existance of God.
-Gwynedd
G. Jones
On 30 Nov 1997, Brood wrote:
> I agree with what you say, Gwynedd. There are those who feel their
> religious beliefs are the _ONLY_ way to go; but IMHO, those with an open
> mind respect others beliefs because they realise that no person really can
> think the exact same way as another. And in the beliefs of the pagans
> overall, I've found that the majority are willing and able to accept
> anothers religious freedom. I've also found quite a number of others who
> do as well, but for the most part (and I'm not bashing or trying to get
> flamed here.) I've found that the Christian and Jewish faiths, overall,
> are the ones who are the most closed minded of faiths.
Oddly enough, I've really found no faith any better than any other at
being open minded....oh, pagans pay alot of lip service to open
mindedness....but let's face it, besides from the bickering among
ourselves, I've met ALOT of pagans who are willing to bash
indiscriminately at Christians every chance they get. I've met extremely
close minded Christians, and wonderfully open minded ones, too. And the
same goes for pagans...in about equal numbers, proportionally. We just
hear more about Christians, because there are more of them. As for my
limited experience with the Jewish faith, they are usually pretty
tolerant, from what I can see.
I think that most people fall somewhere in between the two extremes,
that it really has very little to do with your faith, whether you are open
minded or not, but on who you are as a person.
-Gwynedd
Draco Draconis Ebenium
Batty <dwhi...@SPAMAWAY.crt.net.au> wrote in article
<65rent$o...@news2.zippo.com>...
> "Draco Draconis Ebenium" <eb...@cyberramp.net> wrote:
>
>
> -> The little bug-eaters aren't as smart as fruitbats. 8)
>
> - "I won't ask you your opinion of the Mexican blood drinkers, then,"
> says
> -Ebony,
>
> Anyone who knows all the words to the Macarena *must* be a few sandwiches
> short of a picnic.
Ebony pauses to aim a significant look over at the Two-headed Purple
Dragon known as Socrates|setarcoS who sits, communing with outside forces.
"Undoubtedly," he says, wryly.
> - "How hang's it, Murcielagito?
>
> Wot? <puzzled look> Um. I'm okay.
"Heh. That's Spanish for "Little Bat." As close as I could get to your
name. I thought you saw that post."
> - All well and good in the
> -Bush? Not hanging from any trees near the river, I hope. I understand
> -that Aussie crocs have a taste for fruit bat."
>
> They do indeed! But crocs prefer the Tropics so I'm not bothered by them
> here. My biggest worry at the moment is bushfires. I haven't seen rain
> since August.
"Erg. Sounds bad. Well, keep an eye out and try not to leave any fires
burning. As Smokey says, "Only you can prevent forest ... er, bushfires."
:)
Socrates|setarcoS
>> Anyone who knows all the words to the Macarena *must* be a few sandwiches
>> short of a picnic.
>
> Ebony pauses to aim a significant look over at the Two-headed Purple
>Dragon known as Socrates|setarcoS who sits, communing with outside forces.
>"Undoubtedly," he says, wryly.
'And just WHAT is that supposed to mean, you over glorrified piano key?!?!'
"Don't look at us. We don't know the words to the Macarena. Marco hates that
song."
Well, you have it happen to you and see how YOU like hearing kids sing it and
dance to it.
Socrates|setarcoS (irony of ironies. Children dancing and singing about a slut
cheating on her boyfriend)
Draco Draconis Purpurae