Kitaira's soul and the location of Lord Soth
NUELOW
The location of Lord Soth is up in the air. IMO, there is a fairly easy
way he could be in both settings at the same time.
I was going to answer the Soth question in upcoming FIFTH AGE product or
DRAGON article, before I left TSR for the icy wasteland of freelance
writing... and I may still. Time will tell.
But, if you read the forthcoming RAVENLOFT 2nd Ed. campaign setting, you
will see that Sithicus still exists, and that Soth is still ruling that
land. However, something is definately freaky in Nightlund, too. as shown
in the FIFTH AGE campaign book from the basic SAGA boxed set.
As for Kitiarias spirit... Im not convinced that it was Kitiara we saw in
DoSF. The characterization seemed off. IMO, that was Takhisis living up to
her kender name... She of Many Faces.
Steve Miller
eric lee keyser
On 14 Jan 1997, NUELOW wrote:
>
> I was going to answer the Soth question in upcoming FIFTH AGE product or
> DRAGON article, before I left TSR for the icy wasteland of freelance
> writing... and I may still. Time will tell.
>
>
> Steve Miller
>
>
Hi Steve, I was wondering, if I may pry, and if this is too personal a
question to be answered via posting, please feel free to mock me: Did
you leave TSR with good graces? I mean, was there creative differences
between yourself and some of the TSR brass? I am sorry if I am being too
nosy... 'tis just my way.
BTW on a side note, would you like a Big Comfy Chair at the Manor? You
pick the color...
Keyser Soze
Marisa Brown
In article <19970114183...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, nue...@aol.com
(NUELOW) wrote:
> As for Kitiarias spirit... Im not convinced that it was Kitiara we saw in
> DoSF. The characterization seemed off. IMO, that was Takhisis living up to
> her kender name... She of Many Faces.
>
> Steve Miller
Gotta say that I agree here. If Lord Soth took Kitiara's soul captive, to
hold and torture for the rest of time or whatever, why would he let her
float around giving advice to her son? Soth just doesn't seem the type who
would care about what happens to his spirit captive's son. Anyway that's
just my opinion.
From Ceri :-)
spi...@cyberbeach.net
brow...@netlink.com.au (Marisa Brown) wrote:
it was probably kitiara's spirit since the true authors of dragonlance
didn't intend for soth to be put into ravenloft in the first place...
cassandra
spi...@cyberbeach.net
>Kitiara`s soul escaped from Lord Soth`s grasp when he was transferred
>to Ravenloft. In Ravenloft there were a lot of people who tell storys
>about a woman`s ghost in Soth`s domain (that looks like Kitiara). But
>it is possible that this is only a torture from the Black Land.
>There is no passage were definitely is told that Kitiara travelled
>to Ravenloft with Lord Soth so that her ghost may still be on Krynn.
actually, you are right there. the spirit people see in ravenloft is
only an image projected by the dark powers. this information can be
taken from "when black roses bloom" module, which states that kitiara
isn't in ravenloft.
if you take the ravenloft stories as gospel truth (which they aren't,
since weis and hickman claim they never sent soth into ravenloft),
kitiara's soul is still trapped in the amulet caradoc used to remove
her from the abyss. the amulet is still in dagaard keep.
cassandra
______________________________________________________________________
"the children of the night... what beautiful music they make"
darkness... hidden from the eyes... absence of light...
http://www.cyberbeach.net/~spirit
______________________________________________________________________
Highlord Thunder
Marisa Brown wrote:
>
> In article <19970114183...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, nue...@aol.com
> (NUELOW) wrote:
>
> > As for Kitiarias spirit... Im not convinced that it was Kitiara we saw in
> > DoSF. The characterization seemed off. IMO, that was Takhisis living up to
> > her kender name... She of Many Faces.
> >
> > Steve Miller
>
> Gotta say that I agree here. If Lord Soth took Kitiara's soul captive, to
> hold and torture for the rest of time or whatever, why would he let her
> float around giving advice to her son? Soth just doesn't seem the type who
> would care about what happens to his spirit captive's son. Anyway that's
> just my opinion.
>
Kitiara`s soul escaped from Lord Soth`s grasp when he was transferred
to Ravenloft. In Ravenloft there were a lot of people who tell storys
about a woman`s ghost in Soth`s domain (that looks like Kitiara). But
it is possible that this is only a torture from the Black Land.
There is no passage were definitely is told that Kitiara travelled
to Ravenloft with Lord Soth so that her ghost may still be on Krynn.
Highlord Thunder
Commander of the 3rd Blue Dragonwing
Elven Lich
About the soul of Kit in DoSF. They also if I am not mistaken said that
Soth was on Krynn and his and his knights helped in the aid of Ariakan.
But if we all remember that he went to Ravenloft after the siege on the
Tower in Palanthas. There is a modual for Ravenloft out there concerning
Soths escape from the Dark Domains so I dont know if he did indeed escape.
Also time in Ravenloft passes differently than on other realms...so where
a million years passes, it may be naught but a wink in the eye of time on
Krynn...so he could be there as well as Kit.
" The Dead have time to be patient....."
Elven Lich
" All my life, I was my own person. The choices I made, I made of my own free will. I was never held in thrall by anyone or anything; not even the Queen of Darkness herself!! Bow to others in reverence and respect, but never in slavery!"
Raistlin Majere
Arn!e
On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 spi...@cyberbeach.net wrote:
> actually, you are right there. the spirit people see in ravenloft is
> only an image projected by the dark powers. this information can be
> taken from "when black roses bloom" module, which states that kitiara
> isn't in ravenloft.
>
> if you take the ravenloft stories as gospel truth (which they aren't,
> since weis and hickman claim they never sent soth into ravenloft),
> kitiara's soul is still trapped in the amulet caradoc used to remove
> her from the abyss. the amulet is still in dagaard keep.
Just because the patron saints didn't send Soth to RL doesnt mean that
he's not there. Krynn cannot be made the exclusive domain of one or two
people, (at least so long as the rights belong to TSR...) it's a group
effort, every foot that treds upon Krynnish (or Torillian, or Athasian,
or Oerthian, etc.) soil changes it a bit. But there are many different
Krynns, and many different universes. If ye feel that Soth is still on
Krynn, than by all means, he is (on that particular Krynn). But I'm playing
around with the 'Loft right now (a choice more than a bit influenced by
my discovery of the game Diablo*), and as far as I care, Soth is in Sithicus.
But understand that many of us LIKE the potted plant in the realm of terror.
-Arn!e
*TM & Copyright 1996 Blizzard Entertainment
spi...@cyberbeach.net
elve...@aol.com (Elven Lich) wrote:
>About the soul of Kit in DoSF. They also if I am not mistaken said that
>Soth was on Krynn and his and his knights helped in the aid of Ariakan.
>But if we all remember that he went to Ravenloft after the siege on the
>Tower in Palanthas. There is a modual for Ravenloft out there concerning
>Soths escape from the Dark Domains so I dont know if he did indeed escape.
actually, weis and hickman claim that they never sent soth into
ravenloft, so therefore the critter in sithicus is an impersonator.
so those who read DoSF are to assume that knight of the black rose
never occured.
as to the module, i think you're referring to "when black roses
bloom". soth never escapes in that one... although it is possible at
the end to create a portal back to krynn...
spi...@cyberbeach.net
Arn!e <car...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
sorry... didn't mean to step on any toes... i personally am a
ravenloft fan through and through... as well as dragonlance. i love
what they did with sithicus and everything. and yes i understand that
there are different variations to krynn...
what i was looking at is, soth is a creation of weis and hickman.
i've read on this newsgroup itself that the authors didn't plan for
soth to travel to ravenloft, and by another author doing so, created
some really interesting paradoxes. i seem to recall a message by
margret weis even claiming that the soth in ravenloft was an
imposter... (i guess her way of covering up for the paradox...) :)
i like soth in ravenloft... but some people run into confusion when
they hear he's in ravenloft, but yet he shows up in summer flame...
even though he was supposed to have disappeared right after legends.
just thought i'd throw in my two cents worth and explain how it's
mixed up...
Arn!e
On Sat, 25 Jan 1997 spi...@cyberbeach.net wrote:
> sorry... didn't mean to step on any toes... i personally am a
> ravenloft fan through and through... as well as dragonlance. i love
> what they did with sithicus and everything. and yes i understand that
> there are different variations to krynn...
>
> what i was looking at is, soth is a creation of weis and hickman.
> i've read on this newsgroup itself that the authors didn't plan for
> soth to travel to ravenloft, and by another author doing so, created
> some really interesting paradoxes. i seem to recall a message by
> margret weis even claiming that the soth in ravenloft was an
> imposter... (i guess her way of covering up for the paradox...) :)
>
> i like soth in ravenloft... but some people run into confusion when
> they hear he's in ravenloft, but yet he shows up in summer flame...
> even though he was supposed to have disappeared right after legends.
>
> just thought i'd throw in my two cents worth and explain how it's
> mixed up...
Oh, I never looked at your post as stepping on toes, and I didn't intend
mine as a flame (so if you took it that way, I deeply apologize). And
there is no "easy" explaination here, TSR has created a delightful little
paradox, but that's one of the great things about afdl, we can discuss,
debate, argue, and wage holy wars over this silly little point! :)
-Arn!e
The Dark One (Edward J. Pollard)
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.97012...@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Arn!e <car...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 spi...@cyberbeach.net wrote:
> Just because the patron saints didn't send Soth to RL doesnt mean that
> he's not there. Krynn cannot be made the exclusive domain of one or two
> people, (at least so long as the rights belong to TSR...) it's a group
> effort, every foot that treds upon Krynnish (or Torillian, or Athasian,
> or Oerthian, etc.) soil changes it a bit. But there are many different
> Krynns, and many different universes. If ye feel that Soth is still on
> Krynn, than by all means, he is (on that particular Krynn). But I'm playing
> around with the 'Loft right now (a choice more than a bit influenced by
> my discovery of the game Diablo*), and as far as I care, Soth is in Sithicus.
Ick. Warcraft very good. Diablo VERY bad. What a horrid interface. It
reminds me so of Blizzards earlier work, Blackthorne (published by
Interplay)
Ravenloft is cool, but Dragonlance only has one "big bad evil nasty thing"
and that is Lord Loren Soth of Daagard Keep. I think he shoulda stayed.
Not to mention every single thing about Soth in Ravenloft, with the
exception of the awfully good novel, sucks the big bobo. When Black Roses
Bloom was just terrible.
--
The Dark One, Master of Acheron, AKA Edward J. Pollard
Sage of the World of Krynn
Lorekeeper of the Taladas : Fifth Age project
High Prelate of the Temple of the Macintosh
spi...@cyberbeach.net
Arn!e <car...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>On Sat, 25 Jan 1997 spi...@cyberbeach.net wrote:
>> sorry... didn't mean to step on any toes... i personally am a
>> ravenloft fan through and through... as well as dragonlance. i love
>> what they did with sithicus and everything. and yes i understand that
>> there are different variations to krynn...
>>
>> what i was looking at is, soth is a creation of weis and hickman.
>> i've read on this newsgroup itself that the authors didn't plan for
>> soth to travel to ravenloft, and by another author doing so, created
>> some really interesting paradoxes. i seem to recall a message by
>> margret weis even claiming that the soth in ravenloft was an
>> imposter... (i guess her way of covering up for the paradox...) :)
>>
>> i like soth in ravenloft... but some people run into confusion when
>> they hear he's in ravenloft, but yet he shows up in summer flame...
>> even though he was supposed to have disappeared right after legends.
>>
>> just thought i'd throw in my two cents worth and explain how it's
>> mixed up...
>Oh, I never looked at your post as stepping on toes, and I didn't intend
>mine as a flame (so if you took it that way, I deeply apologize). And
ok... i just wasn't sure if i insulted you by correcting you... it
seems that most of my posts lately are correcting someone somewhere...
and i don't really want to come across as a know-it-all something or
other! i just keep reading a few little discrepencies, and i know i
have the books to back most of the arguments up... but i sure as heck
ain't looking to get into any sort of flame war... :)
>there is no "easy" explaination here, TSR has created a delightful little
>paradox, but that's one of the great things about afdl, we can discuss,
>debate, argue, and wage holy wars over this silly little point! :)
i know there isn't the easy explanation... if you ask my personal
opinion, i think krynn is a total mess at some points! there have
been so many authors that it's a guarantee things are going to mess up
somewhere. having soth in ravenloft and krynn at the same time is a
prime example...
but who really cares? i know i love both the worlds... and i don't
think i'd change anything in them for anything!
(except to have a few of those really silly contradictions fixed!
where DID gully dwarves come from anyways?!) :)
spi...@cyberbeach.net
proct_...@hg.uleth.ca (The Dark One (Edward J. Pollard)) wrote:
>Ravenloft is cool, but Dragonlance only has one "big bad evil nasty thing"
>and that is Lord Loren Soth of Daagard Keep. I think he shoulda stayed.
some of those dragons are really big bad evil nasty things... :)
>Not to mention every single thing about Soth in Ravenloft, with the
>exception of the awfully good novel, sucks the big bobo. When Black Roses
>Bloom was just terrible.
i recently read through the module and i am planning on running my
pc's through it sometime soon... i didn't think it was *quite* that
bad... i liked how they mixed soth's history in it... how he changed
it to be the "ideal". one of my pc's is also somewhat of a
dragonlance expert, and i know he'll be having a hayday with the
altered histories... :)
Arn!e
On Mon, 27 Jan 1997 spi...@cyberbeach.net wrote:
> ok... i just wasn't sure if i insulted you by correcting you... it
> seems that most of my posts lately are correcting someone somewhere...
> and i don't really want to come across as a know-it-all something or
> other! i just keep reading a few little discrepencies, and i know i
> have the books to back most of the arguments up... but i sure as heck
> ain't looking to get into any sort of flame war... :)
I know the feeling. Doesn't it suck knowing everything... ;)
>
> i know there isn't the easy explanation... if you ask my personal
> opinion, i think krynn is a total mess at some points! there have
> been so many authors that it's a guarantee things are going to mess up
> somewhere. having soth in ravenloft and krynn at the same time is a
> prime example...
As is ANYTHING having to do with the War of the Lance.
>
> but who really cares? i know i love both the worlds... and i don't
> think i'd change anything in them for anything!
Yup, same here.
>
> (except to have a few of those really silly contradictions fixed!
> where DID gully dwarves come from anyways?!) :)
I still say Gnomes and Dwarves, not Humans and Dwarves.
-Arn!e
Arn!e
On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, The Dark One wrote:
> Ick. Warcraft very good. Diablo VERY bad. What a horrid interface. It
> reminds me so of Blizzards earlier work, Blackthorne (published by
> Interplay)
WARNING!!!! This response DOES NOT RELATE TO DRAGONLANCE!!!
Play it single, not multi. I like it more that way. But, I'm a loner
anyways.
Anywho, Warcraft and Diablo are two entirely edifferent game genres,
one's strategy, the other's adventure-roleplaying.
>
> Ravenloft is cool, but Dragonlance only has one "big bad evil nasty thing"
> and that is Lord Loren Soth of Daagard Keep. I think he shoulda stayed.
>
> Not to mention every single thing about Soth in Ravenloft, with the
> exception of the awfully good novel, sucks the big bobo. When Black Roses
> Bloom was just terrible.
Well, as an adventure, WBRB did sorta suck. I'm convinced "good" and
"module" are almost mutually exclusive terms. But as a Sithican
Resourse...I kinda liked it. But then again, that's all I ever use
modules for...to steal ideas.
-Arn!e,
Who doesn't have as many annoying titles. ;)
forever darkness
Arn!e <car...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>> have the books to back most of the arguments up... but i sure as heck
>> ain't looking to get into any sort of flame war... :)
>I know the feeling. Doesn't it suck knowing everything... ;)
yup... :)
>> i know there isn't the easy explanation... if you ask my personal
>> opinion, i think krynn is a total mess at some points! there have
>> been so many authors that it's a guarantee things are going to mess up
>> somewhere. having soth in ravenloft and krynn at the same time is a
>> prime example...
>As is ANYTHING having to do with the War of the Lance.
not even just the war! there's the whole history that's messed up...
>> (except to have a few of those really silly contradictions fixed!
>> where DID gully dwarves come from anyways?!) :)
>I still say Gnomes and Dwarves, not Humans and Dwarves.
ah... another peron who believes as i do... :)
NUELOW
Cassandra wrote:
>> (except to have a few of those really silly contradictions fixed!
where DID gully dwarves come from anyways?!) :) <<
That's sticky. When writing "Heroes of Defiance," I remembered that there
were two directly contridictory explanations of where gully dwarves came
from. (Unlike kender, where both versions kinda work together, these two
just contradict each other.)
In consultation with Sue Cook, the reining continuity goddess of
Dragonlance, I went with the one that has been cited most often in books
that are currently in print... that gully dwarves are a human/dwarf
crossbreed.
Steve Miller
The Dark One (Edward J. Pollard)
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.970127...@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Arn!e <car...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, The Dark One wrote:
> > Ick. Warcraft very good. Diablo VERY bad. What a horrid interface. It
> > reminds me so of Blizzards earlier work, Blackthorne (published by
> > Interplay)
>
> Play it single, not multi. I like it more that way. But, I'm a loner
> anyways.
I've only played it single. I really disliked it.
> Anywho, Warcraft and Diablo are two entirely edifferent game genres,
> one's strategy, the other's adventure-roleplaying.
Yup
> > Ravenloft is cool, but Dragonlance only has one "big bad evil nasty thing"
> > and that is Lord Loren Soth of Daagard Keep. I think he shoulda stayed.
> >
> > Not to mention every single thing about Soth in Ravenloft, with the
> > exception of the awfully good novel, sucks the big bobo. When Black Roses
> > Bloom was just terrible.
>
> Well, as an adventure, WBRB did sorta suck. I'm convinced "good" and
> "module" are almost mutually exclusive terms. But as a Sithican
> Resourse...I kinda liked it. But then again, that's all I ever use
> modules for...to steal ideas.
I agree with idea filching. Hell I could have Soth in the realms if I felt
like it. Hey, that might make FR worth playing! :-)
It does not matter. But I think the best official line for TSR to take is
to scrap the multiverse and let the players muck with crossing the worlds.
> -Arn!e,
> Who doesn't have as many annoying titles. ;)
Hey, at least its only 4 lines...
Morten Brattbakk
On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, eric lee keyser wrote:
What?! What about the original Chronicles and Legends, which states that
gully dwarves are human/gnome crossbreed? Chr. and Leg. are read by the
most people, and is by most people considered to be right when there are
inconstistences between these and other DL books. That should of course be
normal practice in TSR as well. In which books exactly are gully dwarves
said to be human/dwarf crossbredd? I know they are in Tales of the Lance,
but there was a lot of "mistakes" compared to the Chr. and Leg. in that
one. In the past I got the impression from Steve when he worked at TSR
that he (and perhaps the whole DL team) used ToL a lot, too much for my
taste. And here we see result. I guess by the logic by what is most often
cited in books currently in print, the companions all met dragons before
DoAT, even though nobody believed in them. But since there were 5 preludes
books where they met dragons, and only 3 books where they didn't
(Chr.), I guess the preludes must be right. (This argument is very silly
of course, I just hope it shows how silly the argument for gully dwarves
being human/dwarf is.)
Gully dwarves are dwarf/gnome x-breeds because
1. It's stated in the original books and in "DL Adventures" (by W&H) they
are.
2. Gully dwarves have all the worst traits of their ancestors, but none of
the good ones. Dwarves are greedy, gnomes are not very... intelligent,
if I may use that word. Genetically, it is much more believeable for
the gullies to be gnomes/dwarves, than humans/dwarves, since humans'
traits are not that extreme. (If you know what I mean.)
3. It is stated several places that dwarves and gnomes are kept apart so
that they can't breed gully dwarves.
4. If the guys that put ToL together had done their job properly, this
mistake would never have happened. By still keeping with that box, TSR
is keeping the inconstences very much alive.
My advice to TSR is: It is much easier to say that one set of books are
right (I'm talking about Chr. and Leg. here) except when they contradict
themselves. To see all DL-books as possible truth, and pick one truth here
and one truth there, will only make things worse.
Morten
NUELOW
Edward Pollard wrote:
>> Ravenloft is cool, but Dragonlance only has one "big bad evil nasty
thing"
and that is Lord Loren Soth of Daagard Keep. I think he shoulda stayed. <<
Why? He no longer served a purpose in the story of Krynn, other than sit
around in Dargaard Keep. He was used in "Legends," and that was it. He was
*never* used with any kind of effectiveness in any of the DL game
material... the "Dargaard Keep" adventure from DL16 is pathetically bad.
And, although "When Black Roses Bloom" is far from perfect, at least it
game Soth a chance to shine, IMO.
>> Not to mention every single thing about Soth in Ravenloft, with the
exception of the awfully good novel, sucks the big bobo. When Black Roses
Bloom was just terrible. <<
Needless to say, I disagree. But then I think tossing a Soth imposter into
"Dragons of Summer Flame" sucks the big bobo.
Steve Miller
forever darkness
Arn!e <car...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>On 28 Jan 1997, NUELOW wrote:
>> Edward Pollard wrote:
>>
>> >> Ravenloft is cool, but Dragonlance only has one "big bad evil nasty
>> thing"
>> and that is Lord Loren Soth of Daagard Keep. I think he shoulda stayed. <<
>>
>> Why? He no longer served a purpose in the story of Krynn, other than sit
>> around in Dargaard Keep. He was used in "Legends," and that was it. He was
>> *never* used with any kind of effectiveness in any of the DL game
>> material... the "Dargaard Keep" adventure from DL16 is pathetically bad.
>> And, although "When Black Roses Bloom" is far from perfect, at least it
>> game Soth a chance to shine, IMO.
>Steve's right. What did Soth do on Krynn?
>As much as I hate to say it, WBRB was a letdown...I might use it, but I'm
>not sure yet.
i can't even recall where soth played a part in summer flame? did he?
i read the book, but i have this habit of forgetting details along the
way...
if soth never made an appearance in summer flame, there is no
contradiction with him being in ravenloft... since he doesn't appear
anytime after legends...
>> >> Not to mention every single thing about Soth in Ravenloft, with the
>> exception of the awfully good novel, sucks the big bobo. When Black Roses
>> Bloom was just terrible. <<
>>
>> Needless to say, I disagree. But then I think tossing a Soth imposter into
>> "Dragons of Summer Flame" sucks the big bobo.
>Who's bobo? Bubba's little brother? ;)
ack! too cute!
forever darkness
nue...@aol.com (NUELOW) wrote:
>>> (except to have a few of those really silly contradictions fixed!
>where DID gully dwarves come from anyways?!) :) <<
>That's sticky. When writing "Heroes of Defiance," I remembered that there
>were two directly contridictory explanations of where gully dwarves came
>from. (Unlike kender, where both versions kinda work together, these two
>just contradict each other.)
>In consultation with Sue Cook, the reining continuity goddess of
>Dragonlance, I went with the one that has been cited most often in books
>that are currently in print... that gully dwarves are a human/dwarf
>crossbreed.
but as pointed out in other posts... humans don't have any outstanding
character traits that would come out in a crossbreed. the gnome/dwarf
mix makes a lot more sense...
i still think of the gully dwarves as the gnome/dwarf mix
personally...
Sir Tristram Sparhawk
Sir Tristram Sparhawk, learned scholar
Lord Soth, the evil, abyss-spawned man, does not own Kitiara's soul.
Read Knight of the Black Rose for an explaination. He almost had it
before he was taken away to RavenLoft and her soul is locked in an
amulet at Dargaard Keep. So she may have escaped and been helping
out...
Trist
Ben Nelson
Where exactly does Lord Soth show up in DoSF? I've been wracking my
brains to think of any place/page where he might've shown up, but I keep
coming up with a blank.
Arn!e
On 28 Jan 1997, NUELOW wrote:
> Edward Pollard wrote:
>
> >> Ravenloft is cool, but Dragonlance only has one "big bad evil nasty
> thing"
> and that is Lord Loren Soth of Daagard Keep. I think he shoulda stayed. <<
>
> Why? He no longer served a purpose in the story of Krynn, other than sit
> around in Dargaard Keep. He was used in "Legends," and that was it. He was
> *never* used with any kind of effectiveness in any of the DL game
> material... the "Dargaard Keep" adventure from DL16 is pathetically bad.
> And, although "When Black Roses Bloom" is far from perfect, at least it
> game Soth a chance to shine, IMO.
Steve's right. What did Soth do on Krynn?
As much as I hate to say it, WBRB was a letdown...I might use it, but I'm
not sure yet.
> >> Not to mention every single thing about Soth in Ravenloft, with the
> exception of the awfully good novel, sucks the big bobo. When Black Roses
> Bloom was just terrible. <<
>
> Needless to say, I disagree. But then I think tossing a Soth imposter into
> "Dragons of Summer Flame" sucks the big bobo.
Who's bobo? Bubba's little brother? ;)
-Arn!e
Kevin James Kage
He appears briefly in a meeting of the Dark Queen's Armies and then is
heard of no more.
Your humble and obedient Renaissance Man,
Bard
"We are the music-makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams."
- A.W.E. O'Shaughnessy
SiR ZiFnab, the Zany
spi...@cyberbeach.net (forever darkness) said this earlier...:
>but as pointed out in other posts... humans don't have any outstanding
>character traits that would come out in a crossbreed. the gnome/dwarf
>mix makes a lot more sense...
No similar traits?? What do you mean?? (:
Humans = dumb as dirt
Gully Dwarves = slightly smarter than dirt....
I assume the g.dwarves rise in intelligence from the dwarven side...
>i still think of the gully dwarves as the gnome/dwarf mix
>personally...
Oh come on..a gully dwarf being a spawn of a gnome? What about the
instinct to create? Thats on both sides of the family tree...so you
can't just get rid of it...
-
Sir ZiFnab the Zany
dra...@clic.net
-
Torger
Ben Nelson <bne...@netaccess.on.ca> wrote in article
<32EE45...@netaccess.on.ca>...
> Where exactly does Lord Soth show up in DoSF? I've been wracking my
> brains to think of any place/page where he might've shown up, but I keep
> coming up with a blank.
>
When Steel contacts his superiors from the tower of high sorcery in
Palanthas he sees them sitting in Dagaard Keep, with Lord Soth in the
background. Also Tanis makes a reference to him, but I don't know exactly
when that was.
Torger, bozak field commander
Arn!e
On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, forever darkness wrote:
>
> i can't even recall where soth played a part in summer flame? did he?
> i read the book, but i have this habit of forgetting details along the
> way...
>
> if soth never made an appearance in summer flame, there is no
> contradiction with him being in ravenloft... since he doesn't appear
> anytime after legends...
There was a singular reference to a shadowy form sitting on the throne in
Dargaard. Soth didn't lead an army, didn't speak to Steel, and sure as
hell didn't participate in the assult on the high clerist's tower.
>
> ack! too cute!
Not if you knew Bubba like Sammi does ;)
-Arn!e
NUELOW
Morten Brattbakk wrote:
>> What?! What about the original Chronicles and Legends, which states
that
gully dwarves are human/gnome crossbreed? <<
They also say there are drow under Pax Tharkas.
>> Chr. and Leg. are read by the
most people, and is by most people considered to be right when there are
inconstistences between these and other DL books. That should of course be
normal practice in TSR as well. In which books exactly are gully dwarves
said to be human/dwarf crossbredd? I know they are in Tales of the Lance,
but there was a lot of "mistakes" compared to the Chr. and Leg. in that
one. <<
No more than any other DL product. And things you define as "mistakes" are
frequently not mistakes at all. (Like the kender thing, but we've been
round-and-round about that one already.)
>> In the past I got the impression from Steve when he worked at TSR
that he (and perhaps the whole DL team) used ToL a lot, too much for my
taste. And here we see result. I guess by the logic by what is most often
cited in books currently in print, the companions all met dragons before
DoAT, even though nobody believed in them. But since there were 5 preludes
books where they met dragons, and only 3 books where they didn't
(Chr.), I guess the preludes must be right. (This argument is very silly
of course, I just hope it shows how silly the argument for gully dwarves
being human/dwarf is.) <<
It's no more silly than the argument that Chronicles and Legends is the
end-all and be-all about info on Ansalon's races, forever and ever, Amen.
>> Gully dwarves are dwarf/gnome x-breeds because
1. It's stated in the original books and in "DL Adventures" (by W&H) they
are. <<
Have you looked at the timeline in "DL Adventures"? That book is far from
perfect.
>> 2. Gully dwarves have all the worst traits of their ancestors, but none
of
the good ones. Dwarves are greedy, gnomes are not very... intelligent,
if I may use that word. Genetically, it is much more believeable for
the gullies to be gnomes/dwarves, than humans/dwarves, since humans'
traits are not that extreme. (If you know what I mean.) <<
Not really. Since dwarves are mutated gnomes in the first place (according
to some of the sources) it seems more believable to me that crossing a
dwarf with a gnome should result in something that resembles a gnome more
than it does a dwarf.
>> 3. It is stated several places that dwarves and gnomes are kept apart
so
that they can't breed gully dwarves. <<
So? Is this based in fact or in erroneous assumptions?
>> 4. If the guys that put ToL together had done their job properly, this
mistake would never have happened. By still keeping with that box, TSR
is keeping the inconstences very much alive. <<
What about the timeline in "DL Adventures"? Or the Amazing Growing Elves?
(Neither of which originates with ToL.)
>> My advice to TSR is: It is much easier to say that one set of books are
right (I'm talking about Chr. and Leg. here) except when they contradict
themselves. To see all DL-books as possible truth, and pick one truth here
and one truth there, will only make things worse. <<
Do I need to trot out the old argument about the history of our own world,
and how we can agree on the facts surrounding events in our own history as
little as 45-60 years ago?
The Dragonlance game line has *always* had different "truths" than the
books. And it always will. Hell, even when we *try* to coordinate with
book authors, they *still* go off in bizarre directions. (I saw it happen
at least three times while I was at TSR.)
Steve Miller
The Dark One (Edward J. Pollard)
In article <19970128080...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, nue...@aol.com
(NUELOW) wrote:
> Edward Pollard wrote:
>
> >> Ravenloft is cool, but Dragonlance only has one "big bad evil nasty
> thing"
> and that is Lord Loren Soth of Daagard Keep. I think he shoulda stayed. <<
>
> Why? He no longer served a purpose in the story of Krynn, other than sit
> around in Dargaard Keep. He was used in "Legends," and that was it. He was
> *never* used with any kind of effectiveness in any of the DL game
> material... the "Dargaard Keep" adventure from DL16 is pathetically bad.
> And, although "When Black Roses Bloom" is far from perfect, at least it
> game Soth a chance to shine, IMO.
If anyone is to "blame" for his lack of use it is the staff of TSR at the
time (Glare at Steve). I think he could have become quite the instrument in
the Fifth Age. Perhaps becoming the most powerful of the undead...leading
hordes of ick bad things...you know, perhaps the curse would be lifted with
the comming of the second cataclysm, and Soth could resolve his inner
turmoil, and then go kick the worlds ass...
Steve, I recall Soth not even being mentioned one way or another in the
Fifth Age set, has there been a "official" decision regarding him in the
Fifth Age and it just wasn't mentioned, or was the Fifth Age crew
skillfully avoiding the topic all together?
>
> >> Not to mention every single thing about Soth in Ravenloft, with the
> exception of the awfully good novel, sucks the big bobo. When Black Roses
> Bloom was just terrible. <<
>
> Needless to say, I disagree. But then I think tossing a Soth imposter into
> "Dragons of Summer Flame" sucks the big bobo.
>
> Steve Miller
Well I think Wies and Hickman have a claim of "Hey, he was our plot device
and we are NOT quite done with him!".
I felt that in WBRB Soth was a terribly portrayed whiney weak sniveling
hollow potted plant. It was just _sad_ seeing the stuff he was doing.
My personal opinion, is that a world like Dragonlance should be removed
from the TSR multiverse, in a Dragonlance perspective. Us lancers can go
about frolicking with Soth and have much fun. People who want to play
campaigns that cross realms will have the Ravenloft set and they can
abscond soth in to RL for their campaign, and the RL set can be chock full
of Sithicuspian goodies, as from the Ravenloft perspective Soth got
abducted by the mists.
It's just as a Dragonlance player, Krynn does not HAVE any mists.
In my humble opinion. :-)
Morten Brattbakk
On 30 Jan 1997, NUELOW wrote:
> Morten Brattbakk wrote:
>
> >> What?! What about the original Chronicles and Legends, which states
> that
> gully dwarves are human/gnome crossbreed? <<
>
> They also say there are drow under Pax Tharkas.
>
> >> Chr. and Leg. are read by the
> most people, and is by most people considered to be right when there are
> inconstistences between these and other DL books. That should of course be
> normal practice in TSR as well. In which books exactly are gully dwarves
> said to be human/dwarf crossbredd? I know they are in Tales of the Lance,
> but there was a lot of "mistakes" compared to the Chr. and Leg. in that
> one. <<
>
> No more than any other DL product. And things you define as "mistakes" are
> frequently not mistakes at all.
No, but it seems that's where many of them got started.
> (Like the kender thing, but we've been
> round-and-round about that one already.)
What kender thing?
> >> In the past I got the impression from Steve when he worked at TSR
> that he (and perhaps the whole DL team) used ToL a lot, too much for my
> taste. And here we see result. I guess by the logic by what is most often
> cited in books currently in print, the companions all met dragons before
> DoAT, even though nobody believed in them. But since there were 5 preludes
> books where they met dragons, and only 3 books where they didn't
> (Chr.), I guess the preludes must be right. (This argument is very silly
> of course, I just hope it shows how silly the argument for gully dwarves
> being human/dwarf is.) <<
>
> It's no more silly than the argument that Chronicles and Legends is the
> end-all and be-all about info on Ansalon's races, forever and ever, Amen.
I didn't say that. But of course it should take presedence, because they
are the original novels, and the novels read by most people. I'm pretty
sure the dwarf/human "mistake" in ToL came into being because the makers
of ToL were unaware of earlier information about the subject, not because
they thought it was a fact that should be revised. Tell me if I'm wrong.
> Gully dwarves are dwarf/gnome x-breeds because
> 1. It's stated in the original books and in "DL Adventures" (by W&H) they
> are. <<
>
> Have you looked at the timeline in "DL Adventures"? That book is far from
> perfect.
I know that. But I said original books AND "DL adventures", not only "DL
Adventures." Besides, since it's written by DLs main creators, it should
be an authority except of course where it contradicts itself.
> >> 2. Gully dwarves have all the worst traits of their ancestors, but none
> of
> the good ones. Dwarves are greedy, gnomes are not very... intelligent,
> if I may use that word. Genetically, it is much more believeable for
> the gullies to be gnomes/dwarves, than humans/dwarves, since humans'
> traits are not that extreme. (If you know what I mean.) <<
>
> Not really. Since dwarves are mutated gnomes in the first place (according
> to some of the sources) it seems more believable to me that crossing a
> dwarf with a gnome should result in something that resembles a gnome more
> than it does a dwarf.
Well, I tend to think gully dwarves do resemble gnomes a lot.
Also, dwarves being mutated gnomes makes it more probable
for them to have fertile children with gnomes, than humans. Besides,
judging by half-elves and half-kender, I would think a half-dwarf would ne
much more "normal" than a gully dwarf.
> >> 3. It is stated several places that dwarves and gnomes are kept apart
> so
> that they can't breed gully dwarves. <<
>
> So? Is this based in fact or in erroneous assumptions?
In fact. :)
> >> 4. If the guys that put ToL together had done their job properly, this
> mistake would never have happened. By still keeping with that box, TSR
> is keeping the inconstences very much alive. <<
>
> What about the timeline in "DL Adventures"? Or the Amazing Growing Elves?
> (Neither of which originates with ToL.)
Well, the creators of ToL tried to correct some of the mistakes in DL
Adventures, they did, but added many more.
> >> My advice to TSR is: It is much easier to say that one set of books are
> right (I'm talking about Chr. and Leg. here) except when they contradict
> themselves. To see all DL-books as possible truth, and pick one truth here
>
> and one truth there, will only make things worse. <<
>
> Do I need to trot out the old argument about the history of our own world,
> and how we can agree on the facts surrounding events in our own history as
> little as 45-60 years ago?
I know.
> The Dragonlance game line has *always* had different "truths" than the
> books.
Wasn't the point of the 5A to keep it more with the books?
> And it always
> will. Hell, even when we *try* to coordinate with
> book authors, they *still* go off in bizarre directions. (I saw it happen
> at least three times while I was at TSR.)
Judging by Sue Cook's decision about gully dwarves, and the High God
and Chaos not being the same,the coordinators also seem to
go off in bizarre directions, IMHO.
Morten
Christopher Felix McDonald
In response to the debate on the origins of gully dwarves and the true
history of Krynn, I find the analogy made between our own history and
Krynn's to be a false one. After all, the history of Krynn is entirely
fictional, and can therefore be made to have absolute truths, in theory.
Though, I admit that controlling so many different authors is a difficult
practical problem. I do believe that Chronicles and Legends should be
considered more or less canon, since they were the first, most consider
them to be by far the best, and most other Dragonlance stories merely
branch off from Chronicles or Legends in one direction or another.
On the subject of gully dwarves, I feel that their origins almost
have to be from gnome/dwarf mixture. After all, how likely is it for any
human to find a gnome or dwarf attractive? I suppose some people have
odd tastes, but not enough to create an entirely new race.
Oh, by the way, I suppose I ought to introduce myself. I'm
Chris, a frosh at Rice. Howdy.
Chris
The Dark One (Edward J. Pollard)
In article <19970128081...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, nue...@aol.com
(NUELOW) wrote:
> In consultation with Sue Cook, the reining continuity goddess of
> Dragonlance, I went with the one that has been cited most often in books
> that are currently in print... that gully dwarves are a human/dwarf
> crossbreed.
>
> Steve Miller
ACK!
But the genepool of Gnome/Dwarf would cause a heckuva lot more "special"
qualities. Honeslty I think a Half-Dwarf would turn out fine, Half-Elves
and Half-Kender ("Kender Stew") did...
Needless to say, I feel you made the wrong decision.
But, who am I to say otherwise?
Ben Nelson
Kevin James Kage wrote:
>
> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Ben Nelson wrote:
>
> > Where exactly does Lord Soth show up in DoSF? I've been wracking my
> > brains to think of any place/page where he might've shown up, but I keep
> > coming up with a blank.
> >
> >
>
> heard of no more.
>
> Your humble and obedient Renaissance Man,
>
> Bard
Wow. That sure is one big paradox. All of my friends loved Knight of The
Black Rose, and will be fairly upset when I mention this loophole to
them. :)
Stig Erik Sandoe
On 30 Jan 1997, NUELOW wrote:
It annoys me to have lost this thread in all the mumbo-jumbo manor and
roleplaying crap..
[snip]
> >> Chr. and Leg. are read by the
> most people, and is by most people considered to be right when there are
> inconstistences between these and other DL books. That should of course be
> normal practice in TSR as well. In which books exactly are gully dwarves
> said to be human/dwarf crossbredd? I know they are in Tales of the Lance,
> but there was a lot of "mistakes" compared to the Chr. and Leg. in that
> one. <<
>
> No more than any other DL product. And things you define as "mistakes" are
> frequently not mistakes at all. (Like the kender thing, but we've been
> round-and-round about that one already.)
This might easily become a problem in discussions, which is then the
truth? the last publication, the first publication, or are we lost to
people who might unhindered claim that Raistlin was a woman? :-)
[snip Morten's interesting comment]
> It's no more silly than the argument that Chronicles and Legends is the
> end-all and be-all about info on Ansalon's races, forever and ever, Amen.
And any other information I presume.. But in your honest opinion Steve,
how do you suggest we use the available sources to define the official
Dragonlance, not that I will worry much *grin*, but it is a bit
interesting for further discussions.
[snip]
> >> 2. Gully dwarves have all the worst traits of their ancestors, but none of
> the good ones. Dwarves are greedy, gnomes are not very... intelligent,
> if I may use that word. Genetically, it is much more believeable for
> the gullies to be gnomes/dwarves, than humans/dwarves, since humans'
> traits are not that extreme. (If you know what I mean.) <<
>
> Not really. Since dwarves are mutated gnomes in the first place (according
> to some of the sources) it seems more believable to me that crossing a
> dwarf with a gnome should result in something that resembles a gnome more
> than it does a dwarf.
Crossing an intelligent gnome with a greedy dwarf, when they are so
genetically equal seems unlikely to produce a moronic creature like the
gully dwarves?
> >> 3. It is stated several places that dwarves and gnomes are kept apart so
> that they can't breed gully dwarves. <<
>
> So? Is this based in fact or in erroneous assumptions?
BUT, does the gnomes acknowledge this, it does seem very unlikely to me
that they see gully dwarves as an offspring, and how could they produce so
many of them so quick? Seems very unlikely if you ask me. I doubt the
gnomes and dwarves had a breeding project.. ;)
> >> My advice to TSR is: It is much easier to say that one set of books are
> right (I'm talking about Chr. and Leg. here) except when they contradict
> themselves. To see all DL-books as possible truth, and pick one truth here
> and one truth there, will only make things worse. <<
>
> Do I need to trot out the old argument about the history of our own world,
> and how we can agree on the facts surrounding events in our own history as
> little as 45-60 years ago?
The logic seems nice, let's revise the history :-)
> The Dragonlance game line has *always* had different "truths" than the
> books. And it always will. Hell, even when we *try* to coordinate with
> book authors, they *still* go off in bizarre directions. (I saw it happen
> at least three times while I was at TSR.)
And Dragonlance Novel A and Dragonlance Novel B has different truths :-)
-Stig
------------------------------------------------------------------
Stig Erik Sandoe Institute of Informatics, University of Bergen
st...@ii.uib.no Compilers, C++, CGI, SW Dev., SGML, Algorithms
http://www.ii.uib.no/~stig/ (ENTP, Awful Good, unOff. DL Guru)
------------------------------------------------------------------
forever darkness
Arn!e <car...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>> i can't even recall where soth played a part in summer flame? did he?
>> i read the book, but i have this habit of forgetting details along the
>> way...
>>
>> if soth never made an appearance in summer flame, there is no
>> contradiction with him being in ravenloft... since he doesn't appear
>> anytime after legends...
>There was a singular reference to a shadowy form sitting on the throne in
>Dargaard. Soth didn't lead an army, didn't speak to Steel, and sure as
>hell didn't participate in the assult on the high clerist's tower.
that's probably right... i just can't remember the part. seems silly
that they put him in there then if he didn't really contribute
anything to the general plot of the story!
>> ack! too cute!
>Not if you knew Bubba like Sammi does ;)
oh oh... do i really want to know this now!?
forever darkness
nue...@aol.com (NUELOW) wrote:
>Morten Brattbakk wrote:
>>> What?! What about the original Chronicles and Legends, which states
>that
>gully dwarves are human/gnome crossbreed? <<
>They also say there are drow under Pax Tharkas.
um... i think what you're referring to is the banshee. technically,
she would be a drow because she was an evil elf. and any evil elves
in krynn are sometimes referred to as drow, altho not in the forgotten
realms sense.
so this isn't a discrepency... there are no black drow elves on
krynn... (unless they spell jammed into there).
forever darkness
dra...@qbc.clic.net (SiR ZiFnab, the Zany) wrote:
>>but as pointed out in other posts... humans don't have any outstanding
>>character traits that would come out in a crossbreed. the gnome/dwarf
>>mix makes a lot more sense...
>No similar traits?? What do you mean?? (:
>Humans = dumb as dirt
>Gully Dwarves = slightly smarter than dirt....
humans don't have a strong character trait of being dumb. sure there
are a few that are... but humans are supposed to be neutral... they
don't really have any strong characteristics that identify them as a
race... (except for the urgency that they do everything which the
longer lived races point out)
>I assume the g.dwarves rise in intelligence from the dwarven side...
heh... :)
>>i still think of the gully dwarves as the gnome/dwarf mix
>>personally...
>Oh come on..a gully dwarf being a spawn of a gnome? What about the
>instinct to create? Thats on both sides of the family tree...so you
>can't just get rid of it...
i'm not sure what you're referring to here. but it's an actual fact
that's stated in a few books. (gnome/dwarf crossbreed). it's the
later books that started in on the human/dwarf crossbreed.
if you seem to think it's the humans that contributed the intelligence
(or lack of) to the gully dwarves, how would that expalin half-elves
and half-kender being intelligent? (at least of average intelligence
that is).
forever darkness
Christopher Felix McDonald <joh...@owlnet.rice.edu> wrote:
> On the subject of gully dwarves, I feel that their origins almost
>have to be from gnome/dwarf mixture. After all, how likely is it for any
>human to find a gnome or dwarf attractive? I suppose some people have
>odd tastes, but not enough to create an entirely new race.
i don't think attractiveness has anything to do with it...
but i heard a *beautiful* argument why the gnome/dwarf crossbreed
works better than the human/dwarf crossbreed...
the gnomes are supposed to be the cursed of reorx right? and aren't
the dwarves the chosen of reorx? so therefore, wouldn't it make sense
that the gully dwarves be the result of the mix?
> Oh, by the way, I suppose I ought to introduce myself. I'm
>Chris, a frosh at Rice. Howdy.
welcome! i'm cassandra... lacking in some sort of character... used
to be a once in a blue moon poster until lately... now i'm having a
great barrel of phun!
cassandra (still wondering if she should grab a character... like that
elvan paladin... with the unicorn...)
forever darkness
nue...@aol.com (NUELOW) wrote:
>Morten Brattbakk wrote:
>>> What kender thing? <<
>Did kender come from mutated gnomes or elves, blah-blah...
please! let's not start this one! :)
>>> Well, I tend to think gully dwarves do resemble gnomes a lot.
>Also, dwarves being mutated gnomes makes it more probable
>for them to have fertile children with gnomes, than humans. <<
>Except that humans can have fertile children with elves. Why not with
>dwarves? Or gnomes for that matter. (And I suspect many gnomes would be
>hightly if you said gully dwarves resembled them. :) )
but humans never created a mutant with the other races. when
crossbreeding humans with other demi-humans you get a creature with
slightly muted characteristics of the demi-human. a half-elf is
larger than an elf, but usually smaller than a human, slighter build
than a human, usually more agile than a human, but not quite as
dextrous as an elf. basically, it's a slightly "stunted" (for lack of
a better word) elf.
same thing with a half-kender. slightly larger than a kender... but
smaller than a human. less pronounced facial features of a kender...
lacks the *severe* traits of a kender (handling, curiosity), but is
more curious and more of a handler than a human. therefore, a
"stunted" kender.
nevermind that other worlds have created half-dwarves, and they aren't
the mutants that gully dwarves are.
(i am using mutant in a loose way here... i can't think of anything
else to call them...)
>(BTW, I'm curious, and I don't remember anymore... but is the so-called
>"fact" of gully dwarf origins presented in the novel relayed by a
>*character* or by the *narrator*? If it's delivered by a *character* it
>should be automatically suspect. It's it's the *narrator*, then I will
>concede that "Tales" [and hence the call of Sue and myself in "Heroes of
>Defiance"] is in error.
ack... i can't find the reference in the first novel... and i sure as
heck don't want to re-read the entire series just to find it... but
here's one quote...
from 1st edition "dragonlance adventures", originally written by
margret weis and tracy hickman, page 67, under gully dwarves,
history...
"for our purposes, we turn to other sources. the tale of the
greystone of gargath tells of how the dwarves and kender came into
being. in the years that followed, a few intermarriages between
gnomes and dwarves occurred in isolated communities across ansalon.
suprisingly, the children of such marriages proved to be of an
entirely new race, with their own paticular characteristics. the
members of this new race lacked all the better qualities of their
parents."
also note that for actual numerical stats, gnomes are below average
*at most* in the wisdom area. it's easy to see how that poor trait
could've been passed on to gully dwarves.
can anyone find the line in the novels that state gnome/dwarf
crossbreed? it's not when the companions visit xak tsaroth... i just
skimmed through that section...
cassandra
NUELOW
>> In response to the debate on the origins of gully dwarves and the true
history of Krynn, I find the analogy made between our own history and
Krynn's to be a false one. After all, the history of Krynn is entirely
fictional, and can therefore be made to have absolute truths, in theory.
<<
Sure... if you want it to be a flat, boring, and uninspired setting like,
oh, the Forgotten Realms.
>> Though, I admit that controlling so many different authors is a
difficult
practical problem. <<
No, it isn't. It has become one, because for ten years TSR did not bother
to do anything but the most minor efforts when it came to keeping tabs on
Dragonlance continuity. (Until last year, a comprehensive continuity bible
didn't even exist.)
>> On the subject of gully dwarves, I feel that their origins almost
have to be from gnome/dwarf mixture. After all, how likely is it for any
human to find a gnome or dwarf attractive? <<
If you answer why many American states have laws against beastiality on
the books, you might have the answer. Or, if you're less crude-minded, you
might ask why some elves find humans attractive. Love (or just plain
perversion) can do strange things to a person.
>> Oh, by the way, I suppose I ought to introduce myself. I'm
Chris, a frosh at Rice. Howdy. <<
Welcome to the Land of Fandom and Discussions on Pointless Minutia, Chris.
:)
Steve Miller
NUELOW
Chris wrote:
>> Okay, now you seem to be suggesting that TSR *should* have been
maintaining continuity. Aren't you contradicting yourself? Or are you
merely saying that they should have maintained some continuity, without
chaining the setting to one particular truth? <<
The latter. If someone at TSR had been keeping an eye on things, there
wouldn't be two explanations of where gully dwarves came from. (Well,
there *might* still have been... mistakes *do* happen, but, IMO, there
certainly wouldn't have been the sea of contradictions that make up the
setting today.)
Steve Miller
NUELOW
Morten Brattbakk wrote:
>> What kender thing? <<
Did kender come from mutated gnomes or elves, blah-blah...
>> I didn't say that. But of course it should take presedence, because
they
are the original novels, and the novels read by most people. I'm pretty
sure the dwarf/human "mistake" in ToL came into being because the makers
of ToL were unaware of earlier information about the subject, not because
they thought it was a fact that should be revised. Tell me if I'm wrong.
<<
I *think* you are wrong, if for no other reason because the leader of the
"Tales of the Lance" project was Harold Johnson, one of Krynn's
co-creators and the manager of the original design team as well as the
current one. I've been through Harold's substantial archives on more than
one occassion, and I'm fairly certain that they were drawing upon some
tidbit in there. It is entirely possible though that the printed reference
did escape attention. (After all, I suspect that's the root cause of a
kender apparently existing prior to kender were supposed to exist, and
that giving rise to the kender/elf/gnome debate. Some of those old notes
are real messes.)
>> I know that. But I said original books AND "DL adventures", not only
"DL
Adventures." Besides, since it's written by DLs main creators, it should
be an authority except of course where it contradicts itself. <<
I disagree, particularly since the "main creators" contradicted "DL
Adventures" themselves in DoSF. (Reread the creation chapter at the
beginning. Then read the "facts" about the "Chaos" god in DoSF. These two
set-ups are as different as night and day, IMO.)
>> Well, I tend to think gully dwarves do resemble gnomes a lot.
Also, dwarves being mutated gnomes makes it more probable
for them to have fertile children with gnomes, than humans. <<
Except that humans can have fertile children with elves. Why not with
dwarves? Or gnomes for that matter. (And I suspect many gnomes would be
hightly if you said gully dwarves resembled them. :) )
>> Judging by Sue Cook's decision about gully dwarves, and the High God
and Chaos not being the same,the coordinators also seem to
go off in bizarre directions, IMHO. <<
The "Chaos God" bit flew in the face of every scrap of info we had on
Krynn and its patheons in print prior to DoSF. We had to do something to
address the problem when conceiving the Fifth Age game.
And, frankly, the gully dwarves and where they originated is, IMO, as
inconsequential as where kender originated. It makes no difference in the
setting, and it makes no difference in game play, unless someone chooses
to set their campaigns in the early days of the Ergothian empire.
Honestly, until I decided that "Heroes of Defiance" would have rules for
gully dwarf player characters under the SAGA system, and I wrote the
source material for Northern Ergoth, I hadn't even given a second thought
to where gully dwarves game from. I halfway assumed they were another
Greygem byproduct... you know, the Greygem transmuted all dwarves who had
ever posted "Make Money Fast!" messages to newsgroups into a state that
more closely resembled their natures. Then, I went looking, and it turned
out to be another contradiction. Being that Fifth Age is a game product,
we went with the most recent (and most widely available and currently in
print game reference as our authority, "Tales of the Lance."
(BTW, I'm curious, and I don't remember anymore... but is the so-called
"fact" of gully dwarf origins presented in the novel relayed by a
*character* or by the *narrator*? If it's delivered by a *character* it
should be automatically suspect. It's it's the *narrator*, then I will
concede that "Tales" [and hence the call of Sue and myself in "Heroes of
Defiance"] is in error.
A rare opportunity is at hand folks... you might get to watch Steve Miller
eat crow with sweet & sour sauce. :)
Dutta
On 30 Jan 1997, NUELOW wrote:
> Morten Brattbakk wrote:
>
> >> What?! What about the original Chronicles and Legends, which states
> that
> gully dwarves are human/gnome crossbreed? <<
>
> They also say there are drow under Pax Tharkas.
>
I thought it was stated that gully dwarves were gnome/dwarf crossbreeds.
Neal Dutta
Arn!e
On 31 Jan 1997, NUELOW wrote:
> If you answer why many American states have laws against beastiality on
> the books, you might have the answer. Or, if you're less crude-minded, you
> might ask why some elves find humans attractive. Love (or just plain
> perversion) can do strange things to a person.
See Phil foglio's What's New collection #2 for further humor in that
point... the lost "Sex and D&D" strip was finally printed. :)
-Arn!e, horder of worthless info.
Chris
On 31 Jan 1997, NUELOW wrote:
> >> In response to the debate on the origins of gully dwarves and the true
> history of Krynn, I find the analogy made between our own history and
> Krynn's to be a false one. After all, the history of Krynn is entirely
> fictional, and can therefore be made to have absolute truths, in theory.
> <<
>
> Sure... if you want it to be a flat, boring, and uninspired setting like,
> oh, the Forgotten Realms.
>
You have a good point here. Having an uncertain history allows for more
mystery and more freedom on the part of the DM.
> >> Though, I admit that controlling so many different authors is a
> difficult
> practical problem. <<
>
> No, it isn't. It has become one, because for ten years TSR did not bother
> to do anything but the most minor efforts when it came to keeping tabs on
> Dragonlance continuity. (Until last year, a comprehensive continuity bible
> didn't even exist.)
>
Okay, now you seem to be suggesting that TSR *should* have been
maintaining continuity. Aren't you contradicting yourself? Or are you
merely saying that they should have maintained some continuity, without
chaining the setting to one particular truth?
> >> On the subject of gully dwarves, I feel that their origins almost
> have to be from gnome/dwarf mixture. After all, how likely is it for any
> human to find a gnome or dwarf attractive? <<
>
> If you answer why many American states have laws against beastiality on
> the books, you might have the answer. Or, if you're less crude-minded, you
> might ask why some elves find humans attractive. Love (or just plain
> perversion) can do strange things to a person.
>
Again, I restate that some people have unusual tastes, but those people
are relatively rare and fairly scattered, so how did Krynn end up with
concentrated populations of gully dwarves? As to the elven question,
elves are far more similar in appearence to humans then dwarves are, and
attraction between humans and elves is evident in many Dragonlance
stories and stories from other AD&D worlds, while I have never read of an
instance of human/dwarven attraction.
> >> Oh, by the way, I suppose I ought to introduce myself. I'm
> Chris, a frosh at Rice. Howdy. <<
>
> Welcome to the Land of Fandom and Discussions on Pointless Minutia, Chris.
> :)
>
> Steve Miller
>
>
Thanks!
-Chris
David Loose
Dutta <y3...@unb.ca> wrote:
>On 30 Jan 1997, NUELOW wrote:
> Morten Brattbakk wrote:
>
> >> What?! What about the original Chronicles and Legends, which states
> that
> gully dwarves are human/gnome crossbreed? <<
>
> They also say there are drow under Pax Tharkas.
>
I think that when they said that there were drow under Pax Tharkas,
they were referring to banshees.
Banshees are dead elf maidens who were evil in life. Evil elves are
usually called dark elves, and I believe drow are too. That could be
what caused the confusion.
No one important
BTW I think gully dwarves are a dwarf - gnome mix too.
em...@domain.com
Arn!e wrote:
>
> On Sat, 25 Jan 1997 spi...@cyberbeach.net wrote:
> > sorry... didn't mean to step on any toes... i personally am a
> > ravenloft fan through and through... as well as dragonlance. i love
> > what they did with sithicus and everything. and yes i understand that
> > there are different variations to krynn...
> >
> > what i was looking at is, soth is a creation of weis and hickman.
> > i've read on this newsgroup itself that the authors didn't plan for
> > soth to travel to ravenloft, and by another author doing so, created
> > some really interesting paradoxes. i seem to recall a message by
> > margret weis even claiming that the soth in ravenloft was an
> > imposter... (i guess her way of covering up for the paradox...) :)
> >
> > i like soth in ravenloft... but some people run into confusion when
> > they hear he's in ravenloft, but yet he shows up in summer flame...
> > even though he was supposed to have disappeared right after legends.
> >
> > just thought i'd throw in my two cents worth and explain how it's
> > mixed up...
>
> Oh, I never looked at your post as stepping on toes, and I didn't intend
> mine as a flame (so if you took it that way, I deeply apologize). And
> there is no "easy" explaination here, TSR has created a delightful little
> paradox, but that's one of the great things about afdl, we can discuss,
> debate, argue, and wage holy wars over this silly little point! :)
>
> -Arn!e
I hate to be the guy to say thid, but The fifth age sourcebook made it
pretty clear that Soth isn't on Krynn.
--
_____________________________________________________________
Brett Gearing mgea...@miworld.net
http://www.miworld.net/~mgearing
"I don't agree with a word you say, but I will defend to the death your
right to say it" -Voltaire
SiR ZiFnab, the Zany
spi...@cyberbeach.net (forever darkness) said this earlier...:
>humans don't have a strong character trait of being dumb. sure there
>are a few that are... but humans are supposed to be neutral... they
>don't really have any strong characteristics that identify them as a
>race... (except for the urgency that they do everything which the
>longer lived races point out)
I still think they're dumb....even here on earth its the humans who
show the largest lack of actual intelligence...we have the potential
for it and don't use it...
>i'm not sure what you're referring to here. but it's an actual fact
>that's stated in a few books. (gnome/dwarf crossbreed). it's the
>later books that started in on the human/dwarf crossbreed.
Ugh...again with those books (: Look, there are alot of
inconsistencies that were proven to be false afterwards. If i say
Nuitari was a Nazi eskimo first, does that make it true? *shrug* I
guess i can agree a bit tho. Now that i really think about it, what
happens to the height in the humans if its a human/dwarf breed? But
with a gnome/dwarf breed, i'm sorry....theres nothing to explain their
being so stupid.
>if you seem to think it's the humans that contributed the intelligence
>(or lack of) to the gully dwarves, how would that expalin half-elves
>and half-kender being intelligent? (at least of average intelligence
>that is).
Cuz elves are super smart. (: Kender are inquisitive and curious.
Those aspects make up for stupidity ;) Ye know what, I'm beginning
to think that neither of those two options seem to really work....
NUELOW
Stig Sandoe wrote:
>> This might easily become a problem in discussions, which is then the
truth? the last publication, the first publication, or are we lost to
people who might unhindered claim that Raistlin was a woman? :-) <<
I tend to go with the most recent publication, unless it's clearly wrong.
And, generally speaking, "wrong" for me is something that doesn't fit with
what I view as being in the spirit of the DRAGONLANCE series and setting.
>> But in your honest opinion Steve,
how do you suggest we use the available sources to define the official
Dragonlance, not that I will worry much *grin*, but it is a bit
interesting for further discussions. <<
If it says DRAGONLANCE and TSR on the cover, if it fits with the mood and
themes of Krynn and the Saga, and if it fits with the overall story arcs
of the series, then I consider a source for the official DRAGONLANCE.
(There are only three books offhand that I reject completely as a fan, and
only two that I rejected when working on the FIFTH AGE game material.)
>> Crossing an intelligent gnome with a greedy dwarf, when they are so
genetically equal seems unlikely to produce a moronic creature like the
gully dwarves? <<
That's another good view, IMO. The whole "gully dwarves are the product of
the worst in both these other races" seem to be rooted in human racism any
way you look at it. :)
Steve Miller
NUELOW
>> I think that when they said that there were drow under Pax Tharkas,
they were referring to banshees. <<
Could be. That doesn't make it any less wrong. There are no drow on Krynn.
(Unless one uses SPELLJAMMER rules in ones home game, and accepts the
events described in "Wild Elves" as part of that game's continuity.
Steve Miller
forever darkness
nue...@aol.com (NUELOW) wrote:
>>> I think that when they said that there were drow under Pax Tharkas,
>they were referring to banshees. <<
>Could be. That doesn't make it any less wrong. There are no drow on Krynn.
no... there are no drow on krynn. there are no black skinned elves
native to the place. but normal elves that have been cast out are
called dark elves or drow. doesn't mean they have black skin. it
means they are evil.
therefore, there wasn't an error on the authors part when they refer
to the banshee found under pax tharkas as a drow. it's an evil elf in
krynn terms.
(although they shouldn't be using terms from other game worlds in
order to prevent this kind of confusion... :) )
forever darkness
em...@domain.com wrote:
>> > i like soth in ravenloft... but some people run into confusion when
>> > they hear he's in ravenloft, but yet he shows up in summer flame...
>> > even though he was supposed to have disappeared right after legends.
>> >
>> > just thought i'd throw in my two cents worth and explain how it's
>> > mixed up...
>>
>> Oh, I never looked at your post as stepping on toes, and I didn't intend
>> mine as a flame (so if you took it that way, I deeply apologize). And
>> there is no "easy" explaination here, TSR has created a delightful little
>> paradox, but that's one of the great things about afdl, we can discuss,
>> debate, argue, and wage holy wars over this silly little point! :)
>I hate to be the guy to say thid, but The fifth age sourcebook made it
>pretty clear that Soth isn't on Krynn.
you mean there's actually something clearly stated about it? so far,
there's too many people at tsr itself, arguing about where he actually
is to take any sort of sourcebook literally! :)
forever darkness
dra...@qbc.clic.net (SiR ZiFnab, the Zany) wrote:
>spi...@cyberbeach.net (forever darkness) said this earlier...:
>>humans don't have a strong character trait of being dumb. sure there
>>are a few that are... but humans are supposed to be neutral... they
>>don't really have any strong characteristics that identify them as a
>>race... (except for the urgency that they do everything which the
>>longer lived races point out)
>I still think they're dumb....even here on earth its the humans who
>show the largest lack of actual intelligence...we have the potential
>for it and don't use it...
of course tho, it's the humans who have built the greatest empires.
in the long run, it's the humans who rule the world. humans have the
drive to change and make changes. is that dumb?
>>i'm not sure what you're referring to here. but it's an actual fact
>>that's stated in a few books. (gnome/dwarf crossbreed). it's the
>>later books that started in on the human/dwarf crossbreed.
>Ugh...again with those books (: Look, there are alot of
>inconsistencies that were proven to be false afterwards. If i say
there's a mess of inconsistencies and not all were proven. some
things were fixed with reasons. others just stated something new and
people said "let's take the new information as the gospel truth", even
tho some of the new information didn't make as much sense as the old
information.
>guess i can agree a bit tho. Now that i really think about it, what
>happens to the height in the humans if its a human/dwarf breed? But
there's a point there...
>with a gnome/dwarf breed, i'm sorry....theres nothing to explain their
>being so stupid.
gnomes aren't exactly on the highest end of the wisdom/intelligence
scale... look how many inventions they have that actually work... sure
i know that reorx himself cursed them to never have anything work...
but the fact that they're so accident-prone, problem causing
troublmakers.
>>if you seem to think it's the humans that contributed the intelligence
>>(or lack of) to the gully dwarves, how would that expalin half-elves
>>and half-kender being intelligent? (at least of average intelligence
>>that is).
>Cuz elves are super smart. (: Kender are inquisitive and curious.
>Those aspects make up for stupidity ;) Ye know what, I'm beginning
>to think that neither of those two options seem to really work....
elves aren't super smart... they have the same intelligence capacity
as humans... sometimes elves can even be qualified as stupid... look
at what lorac did in his pride... :)
altho it looks like neither option works, the only one that really
makes sense is the gnome/dwarf mix. the human/dwarf mix has been done
on other worlds with no mutants. humans mix fine with other races...
why would it create a mutant only in the case of dwarves?
Arn!e
On 3 Feb 1997, Harlan Heubaum wrote:
> As for the story of Lord Soth moving to Ravenloft in that so famed book
> Knight of the Black Rose, contrary to the beliefes of the author of that
> book, Lord Soth is still on Krynn, never thought of leaving Krynn and would
> not vacation in the weak land of Ravenloft had he decided to take a
> vaction.
Yadda yadda yadda...oh, were you talking? Sorry :)
>
> This is also fronted information on Lord Soth, so believe it, I know for a
> fact that Lord Soth is still on Krynn. How do I know this? Easy, at the
> summer GENCON in Wisconsin, I met Tracy Hickman (who invented Lord Soth),
> and asked him a suprising question, 'What is Lord Soths first name', the
> response, I will not tell, but I will tell you, soon after that I asked why
> Lord Soth left Krynn and went to Ravenloft, and Hickman himself said, I had
> no hand in writing that book, and it never happened.
(Arn!e's unspoken insert: "According to me")
> Hickman said, 'Soth never left Krynn, never thought of leaving Krynn,
> and never WOULD leave krynn.'
Tracy also doesn't believe in Taladas. Does that mean it doesn't exist?
And if he believed in the tooth fairy, would that make him/her/it exist?
Lord Loren Soth...is not the property of Tracy Hickman (Sorry TH, and
you too, MW, but I side with the corp on this one...). TSR decided to put
him in 'Loft, he's in Ravenloft. In a nut shell...deal with it.
However, there are a plethora of multiverses out there, and on many
(alternate) Krynns, the Knight of the Black Rose still sits upon his
throne in Dargaard, functioning as a delightful decoration, in much the
same way as a potted plant would... :)
I just have a little problem with the "If MW and TH didn't write it, it
never happened" school of thought. If Ed Greenwood said "No, FR is mine,
and because I created it, you can't have Drizzt" where would Toril be
right now?
Think about that one for a bit.
Incidentally, above and beyond, Dragonlance and all its likenesses are
property of TSR. Not MW and TH. And even though TSR has done some
stupid sh*t in the past, Soth on RL was not useless. In fact, IMO, it
was the best thing to happen to DL since the Time of the Dragon boxed
set...the best thing EVER to happen to Krynn :)
> So you can believe me. ;)
First tell me who you are. ;)
-Arn!e
Harlan Heubaum
As for the story of Lord Soth moving to Ravenloft in that so famed book
Knight of the Black Rose, contrary to the beliefes of the author of that
book, Lord Soth is still on Krynn, never thought of leaving Krynn and would
not vacation in the weak land of Ravenloft had he decided to take a
vaction.
This is also fronted information on Lord Soth, so believe it, I know for a
fact that Lord Soth is still on Krynn. How do I know this? Easy, at the
summer GENCON in Wisconsin, I met Tracy Hickman (who invented Lord Soth),
and asked him a suprising question, 'What is Lord Soths first name', the
response, I will not tell, but I will tell you, soon after that I asked why
Lord Soth left Krynn and went to Ravenloft, and Hickman himself said, I had
no hand in writing that book, and it never happened. Hickman said, 'Soth
never left Krynn, never thought of leaving Krynn, and never WOULD leave
krynn.'
forever darkness
"Harlan Heubaum" <har...@ais.net> wrote:
>As for the story of Lord Soth moving to Ravenloft in that so famed book
>Knight of the Black Rose, contrary to the beliefes of the author of that
>book, Lord Soth is still on Krynn, never thought of leaving Krynn and would
>not vacation in the weak land of Ravenloft had he decided to take a
>vaction.
um... we knew this... margret weis told it herself on the newsgroup.
but still, some people believe he's in both places, whichever is
convenient. i like having him in ravenloft since there's some neat
things you can do with him there.
and he does show up in krynn when he's needed.
and what ever gave you the idea ravenloft was a weak land? for some
reason, i can't see a lich who controls a land mass the size of
abanasinia, and exerts control over all the dead and undead in that
mass being very weak...
would you like to take azalin on yourself? :)
Countrspel
>you too, MW, but I side with the corp on this one...). TSR decided to
put
>him in 'Loft, he's in Ravenloft. In a nut shell...deal with it.
>However, there are a plethora of multiverses out there, and on many
>(alternate) Krynns, the Knight of the Black Rose still sits upon his
>throne in Dargaard, functioning as a delightful decoration, in much the
>same way as a potted plant would... :)
I agree. It seems to me that most characters have no choice in the
matter of going to Ravenloft or staying home.. (It's a demi-planes
designed to suck you in and trap you! SSSLURP - *POP!*) And that's exactly
what it did....Although I also agree that if you don't want him there,
then he's not (in YOUR oppinion or world or campaign or whatever) :)
>I just have a little problem with the "If MW and TH didn't write it, it
>never happened" school of thought. If Ed Greenwood said "No, FR is mine,
>and because I created it, you can't have Drizzt" where would Toril be
>right now?
>
>Think about that one for a bit.
NO! Not Drizzt! C'mon He's the only munchkin I actually LIKE! ;)
>Incidentally, above and beyond, Dragonlance and all its likenesses are
>property of TSR. Not MW and TH. And even though TSR has done some
>stupid sh*t in the past, Soth on RL was not useless. In fact, IMO, it
>was the best thing to happen to DL since the Time of the Dragon boxed
>set...the best thing EVER to happen to Krynn :)
>
[snip]
>
>-Arn!e
I don't know about *that*....;)
Counterspell
Stig Erik Sandoe
On 2 Feb 1997, NUELOW wrote:
> Stig Sandoe wrote:
>
> >> This might easily become a problem in discussions, which is then the
> truth? the last publication, the first publication, or are we lost to
> people who might unhindered claim that Raistlin was a woman? :-) <<
>
> I tend to go with the most recent publication, unless it's clearly wrong.
> And, generally speaking, "wrong" for me is something that doesn't fit with
> what I view as being in the spirit of the DRAGONLANCE series and setting.
And there I agree with you 100%, but it does leave us with as many worlds
of Dragonlance as there are readers. :-)
> >> But in your honest opinion Steve,
> how do you suggest we use the available sources to define the official
> Dragonlance, not that I will worry much *grin*, but it is a bit
> interesting for further discussions. <<
>
> If it says DRAGONLANCE and TSR on the cover, if it fits with the mood and
> themes of Krynn and the Saga, and if it fits with the overall story arcs
> of the series, then I consider a source for the official DRAGONLANCE.
> (There are only three books offhand that I reject completely as a fan, and
> only two that I rejected when working on the FIFTH AGE game material.)
Again I agree with you, though I reject all books from the Second
Generation and later. No offense however, they might be good books, but
they don't fit into "my idea" of Dragonlance :)
> >> Crossing an intelligent gnome with a greedy dwarf, when they are so
> genetically equal seems unlikely to produce a moronic creature like the
> gully dwarves? <<
>
> That's another good view, IMO. The whole "gully dwarves are the product of
> the worst in both these other races" seem to be rooted in human racism any
> way you look at it. :)
I do view them as a separate race in my campaigns who were transformed
into gully dwarves by the greygem, it also explains quite a lot. I doubt
that gnomes would have a mating program of such scale that they produced
thousands and thousands of gully dwarves.
Arn!e
On 4 Feb 1997, Countrspel wrote:
> NO! Not Drizzt! C'mon He's the only munchkin I actually LIKE! ;)
But seriously. If Ed o' the Greenwoods decided that because he doesn't
like Drizzt, therefor Drizzt doesn't exist...well, I think TSR would be
out alot of money, in the first place.
> I don't know about *that*....;)
Ohy it was...it was. MAYBE Taladas: The Minotaurs came CLOSE, but TotD
was the best thing, IMH(Draconic)O to happen to Krynn.
-Arn!e
Countrspel
>On 4 Feb 1997, Countrspel wrote:
>> NO! Not Drizzt! C'mon He's the only munchkin I actually LIKE! ;)
>
>But seriously. If Ed o' the Greenwoods decided that because he doesn't
>like Drizzt, therefor Drizzt doesn't exist...well, I think TSR would be
>out alot of money, in the first place.
>
>> I don't know about *that*....;)
>
>
>-Arn!e
Points well taken... :]
Counterspell
Brett Gearing
Arn!e wrote:
>
> On 3 Feb 1997, Harlan Heubaum wrote:
>
> > As for the story of Lord Soth moving to Ravenloft in that so famed book
> > Knight of the Black Rose, contrary to the beliefes of the author of that
> > book, Lord Soth is still on Krynn, never thought of leaving Krynn and would
> > not vacation in the weak land of Ravenloft had he decided to take a
> > vaction.
>
>
> >
> > fact that Lord Soth is still on Krynn. How do I know this? Easy, at the
> > summer GENCON in Wisconsin, I met Tracy Hickman (who invented Lord Soth),
> > and asked him a suprising question, 'What is Lord Soths first name', the
> > response, I will not tell, but I will tell you, soon after that I asked why
> > Lord Soth left Krynn and went to Ravenloft, and Hickman himself said, I had
> > no hand in writing that book, and it never happened.
>
>
> > and never WOULD leave krynn.'
>
> And if he believed in the tooth fairy, would that make him/her/it exist?
> Lord Loren Soth...is not the property of Tracy Hickman (Sorry TH, and
> him in 'Loft, he's in Ravenloft. In a nut shell...deal with it.
> However, there are a plethora of multiverses out there, and on many
> (alternate) Krynns, the Knight of the Black Rose still sits upon his
> throne in Dargaard, functioning as a delightful decoration, in much the
> same way as a potted plant would... :)
>
> never happened" school of thought. If Ed Greenwood said "No, FR is mine,
> and because I created it, you can't have Drizzt" where would Toril be
> right now?
>
> Think about that one for a bit.
>
> property of TSR. Not MW and TH. And even though TSR has done some
> stupid sh*t in the past, Soth on RL was not useless. In fact, IMO, it
> was the best thing to happen to DL since the Time of the Dragon boxed
> set...the best thing EVER to happen to Krynn :)
>
>
>
> -Arn!e
And all that aside, Knight of the Black Rose was a fairly decent book.
Now if you want to criticeze something, let's talk about Murder in
Tarsis.....
Harlan Heubaum
I totally disagree, dragonlance characters should stay in dragonlance,
shows how weak the storys are in ravenloft, they have to steal characters
from more popular series to gain readers...lame, and if you like it, your
just as lame.
This is why I hate newsgroups, because of stupid people.
Most ever user of newsgroups is an aol user, showing how much he/she knows
about anything. :p
Arn!e
Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries.
First of all, you trogolodite, I'm one of the people who support Soth in
RL. Secondly, the whole point BEHIND RL is that it's the vilest people
of the various worlds. Thirdly, I like newsgroups, and fourthy, I don't
use AOL. And additionally, your grammar sucks. And most everybody on
this newsgroup isn't an AOL-er. Check the addresses.
Therefor, your inference is invalid, and you sir, are a twit.
-Arn!e
Theresa Dinh
On 5 Feb 1997, Harlan Heubaum wrote:
> I totally disagree, dragonlance characters should stay in dragonlance,
> shows how weak the storys are in ravenloft, they have to steal characters
> from more popular series to gain readers...lame, and if you like it, your
> just as lame.
>
> This is why I hate newsgroups, because of stupid people.
> Most ever user of newsgroups is an aol user, showing how much he/she knows
> about anything. :p
>
>
>
If you hate newsgroups, then why are you here? And you absolutely do not
make sense in that last sentence. Try typing a little slower...
Bri
Therek Mountainshaper
On 5 Feb 1997, Harlan Heubaum wrote:
> I totally disagree, dragonlance characters should stay in dragonlance,
> shows how weak the storys are in ravenloft, they have to steal characters
> from more popular series to gain readers...lame, and if you like it, your
> just as lame.
Hmmm, I got a feeling you're gonna get it for this. And I was wondering,
when did your opinions become the standard to judge lameness by? Your
theory is pretty damn lame as it is. Read some different RL books, most
of them DON'T use previously used/other world characters. And why is
using Soth in RL any different than Kevin Stein using Raist and Caramon
in _Brothers Majere_? Neither are the author own creation, but why is
one worse?
> This is why I hate newsgroups, because of stupid people.
If you hate newsgroups, why read/post to them? Seems like you want to be
angry.
> Most ever user of newsgroups is an aol user, showing how much he/she knows
> about anything. :p
Very few of us are AOL users, thanks.
Therek Mountainshaper, back and grumpy
Therek Mountainshaper
On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Arn!e wrote:
<Therek hacks crap about lameness>
> Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries.
> First of all, you trogolodite, I'm one of the people who support Soth in
> RL. Secondly, the whole point BEHIND RL is that it's the vilest people
> of the various worlds. Thirdly, I like newsgroups, and fourthy, I don't
> use AOL. And additionally, your grammar sucks. And most everybody on
> this newsgroup isn't an AOL-er. Check the addresses.
>
> Therefor, your inference is invalid, and you sir, are a twit.
>
> -Arn!e
I figured Arn!e'd have a few problems with this.
Therek Mountainshaper
Matthew Martin
In article <01bc1381$620f2580$5b9a...@tbone.ais.net>,
"Harlan Heubaum" <har...@ais.net> wrote:
>
> I totally disagree, dragonlance characters should stay in dragonlance,
> shows how weak the storys are in ravenloft, they have to steal characters
> from more popular series to gain readers...lame, and if you like it, your
> just as lame.
creativity. Where would I be without you?
And for your information, Soth is being treated better in Ravenloft
than he ever was in DL post-Chronicles.
I think that there's a place for him in both worlds. What there
_isn't_ a place for is petty insults hurled between the three
sides (DL, RL, and DL/RL split) of the debate.
> This is why I hate newsgroups, because of stupid people.
> Most ever user of newsgroups is an aol user, showing how much he/she knows
> about anything. :p
who post through AOL?
Matthew Martin, mlma...@coe.edu
Lord Soth Location Mini-FAQ in Development!
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Arn!e
On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Therek Mountainshaper wrote:
> I figured Arn!e'd have a few problems with this.
>
Damn, am I getting that predictable??? :)
-Arn!e, supporter of peace and equality for all...well, except the stupid
people.
Theresa Dinh
> On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Arn!e wrote:
>
> > Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries.
> > First of all, you trogolodite, I'm one of the people who support Soth in
> > RL. Secondly, the whole point BEHIND RL is that it's the vilest people
> > of the various worlds. Thirdly, I like newsgroups, and fourthy, I don't
> > use AOL. And additionally, your grammar sucks. And most everybody on
> > this newsgroup isn't an AOL-er. Check the addresses.
> >
> > Therefor, your inference is invalid, and you sir, are a twit.
> >
> > -Arn!e
>
You sure have a way with words Arn!e. That'll teach him.
Bri
forever darkness
Arn!e <car...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries.
>First of all, you trogolodite, I'm one of the people who support Soth in
>RL. Secondly, the whole point BEHIND RL is that it's the vilest people
>of the various worlds. Thirdly, I like newsgroups, and fourthy, I don't
>use AOL. And additionally, your grammar sucks. And most everybody on
>this newsgroup isn't an AOL-er. Check the addresses.
>Therefor, your inference is invalid, and you sir, are a twit.
touche! nice touch... that's telling him where it's at!
forever darkness
"Harlan Heubaum" <har...@ais.net> wrote:
>I totally disagree, dragonlance characters should stay in dragonlance,
and that's your opinion.
>shows how weak the storys are in ravenloft, they have to steal characters
shows what you know.
>from more popular series to gain readers...lame, and if you like it, your
>just as lame.
considering the only character they "stole" was lord soth, i would
suggest you re-read some of the ravenloft stories since you are very
ill-equipped to handle an intelligent *argument* concerning this
subject.
and who are you to pass judgement on who's lame and who's not? who
died and made you the high god of krynn?
"ah ha ha... i rule you puny mortals! those of you not agreeing with
my opinions are lame! ka-zaam! all lame people, according to my
judgement, are condemed to read weeny posts like the ones i put up!
ha ha ha!"
>This is why I hate newsgroups, because of stupid people.
then go away. no one asked you to read them.
>Most ever user of newsgroups is an aol user, showing how much he/she knows
>about anything. :p
shows how much you know. i don't use aol... and i can use proper
grammer... unlike some other flame-oid loozers who have nothing better
to do than throw around their "i am god, my opinion is all that
counts" attitude.
go play in a blender...
gads... i hate weenys like this! some people should get a life
*before* they get a computer.
NUELOW
Some ignorant twit wrote:
>> I totally disagree, dragonlance characters should stay in dragonlance,
shows how weak the storys are in ravenloft, they have to steal characters
from more popular series to gain readers...lame, and if you like it, your
just as lame. <<
Once again, let me ask what the DRAGONLANCE authors did with Soth beyond
"Legends" that is even worth mentioning? "Knight of the Black Rose" was a
pretty good novel by TSR standards.
>> This is why I hate newsgroups, because of stupid people.<<
I know the feeling.
>> Most ever user of newsgroups is an aol user, showing how much he/she
knows
about anything. :p <<
How about engaging in a little bit of introspection next time? I believe
you might find a stupid person much closer than you've previously thought.
Jerk.
Steve Miller
Harlan Heubaum
Hahaha, I figured that would create a bit of posting..
You guys are so predictable, I post something negative, and you all try to
jump me, like it did anything to me whatsoever.. hahahahah Idiots.
Arn!e
Who do you think ye' are? I'll admit, I jumped, swinging my blazing
sword of self-rightousness, as I'm prone to do. But I'd just like to know -
seeing as you think I'm an idiot, and I think you're an idiot - from one
idiot to another, where do you get off? Do you really ENJOY having
people pissed at you? Do you actually RELISH the feeble satisafaction that
comes from baiting others? Does this give you some petty power trip?
Respond to me, either on afdl or by e-mail, the address is real, it's
posted, I have nothing to hide...do you?
-Arn!e
Theresa Dinh
Uh oh. You are amazing Arn!e - go get 'im! Make him beg for mercy, then
don't give him any.
Bri
Theresa Dinh
On 6 Feb 1997, Harlan Heubaum wrote:
> Hahaha, I figured that would create a bit of posting..
> You guys are so predictable, I post something negative, and you all try to
> jump me, like it did anything to me whatsoever.. hahahahah Idiots.
>
>
>
Cheap thrills for a simple mind I take it. Grow up.
Theresa
forever darkness
Arn!e <car...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>> Hahaha, I figured that would create a bit of posting..
>> You guys are so predictable, I post something negative, and you all try to
>> jump me, like it did anything to me whatsoever.. hahahahah Idiots.
>Who do you think ye' are? I'll admit, I jumped, swinging my blazing
>sword of self-rightousness, as I'm prone to do. But I'd just like to know -
>seeing as you think I'm an idiot, and I think you're an idiot - from one
>idiot to another, where do you get off? Do you really ENJOY having
>people pissed at you? Do you actually RELISH the feeble satisafaction that
>comes from baiting others? Does this give you some petty power trip?
>Respond to me, either on afdl or by e-mail, the address is real, it's
>posted, I have nothing to hide...do you?
you know what this little twerp reminds me of? those little 14 year
old computer hackerz that think they're the eleet of the computer
world. they think they're just t00 c00l for us... and getting all
annoyed with them just makes them laugh all the much harder...
my advice... leave the little pond scum alone... let him blather his
useless words and throw his "i am t00 c00l and el88t 4 u" attitude
around. not answering him is the easiest way to piss him off cause
any sort of logical argument is wasted on his amoeba-like
intelligence.
i know this type of turkey... i have on that stops in from time to
time in a private irc channel... and we can't keep the bugger out...
The Beast
First of all, I'm so glad to have found a Dragonlance newsgroup!
IMHO, Ravenloft is a land of nightmares, so the things happened
in "The Knight of The Black Rose" were probably nothing more (and less)
than Lord Soth's dreams (who said the undead can't dream! ;^)
Stewart
ste...@iastate.edu
NUELOW
Cassandra wrote:
>> you know what this little twerp reminds me of? those little 14 year
old computer hackerz that think they're the eleet of the computer
world. they think they're just t00 c00l for us... and getting all
annoyed with them just makes them laugh all the much harder... <<
Dunno... they are typically a bit more clever than this twit.
He seemed more like a 26 year-old virgin who's closest encounter with the
opposite sex has been copies of "Hustler" magazine.
At least we can be sure he won't be breeding.
Steve Miller
NUELOW
Stewart wrote:
>> IMHO, Ravenloft is a land of nightmares, so the things happened
in "The Knight of The Black Rose" were probably nothing more (and less)
than Lord Soth's dreams (who said the undead can't dream! ;^) <<
Naw, Soth's dreams were presented in "When Black Roses Bloom." :)
Steve Miller
Therek Mountainshaper
On 6 Feb 1997, NUELOW wrote:
> Dunno... they are typically a bit more clever than this twit.
>
> He seemed more like a 26 year-old virgin who's closest encounter with the
> opposite sex has been copies of "Hustler" magazine.
Risky comment. However, THIS dwarf laughed his ass off and upon rereading
it proceded to do it all over again.
>
> At least we can be sure he won't be breeding.
Preach it Steve, preach it :)
Therek Mountainshaper, who pictured the person in much the same light
except for thinking 6th grade, not 26
Arn!e
On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, forever darkness wrote:
> you know what this little twerp reminds me of? those little 14 year
> old computer hackerz that think they're the eleet of the computer
> world. they think they're just t00 c00l for us... and getting all
> annoyed with them just makes them laugh all the much harder...
>
> my advice... leave the little pond scum alone... let him blather his
> useless words and throw his "i am t00 c00l and el88t 4 u" attitude
> around. not answering him is the easiest way to piss him off cause
> any sort of logical argument is wasted on his amoeba-like
> intelligence.
>
> i know this type of turkey... i have on that stops in from time to
> time in a private irc channel... and we can't keep the bugger out...
Oh, Cass, I know who they are :) ...but as sad as it sounds, I like the
kicks I get from tearing them apart. I know, in a way, I'm no better than
they are, but it's just sooooooo much fun to prolong it and then laugh at the
pre-pubescent putzes when they either respond like this 'un did above, or
when they simply vanish. :)
-Arn!e
"Just because I'm a metallic dragon, doesn't mean I can't be malicious!"
SiR ZiFnab, the Zany
"Harlan Heubaum" <har...@ais.net> said this earlier...:
>I totally disagree, dragonlance characters should stay in dragonlance,
>shows how weak the storys are in ravenloft, they have to steal characters
>from more popular series to gain readers...lame, and if you like it, your
>just as lame.
I thought the story of Soth going to Ravenloft was a good book. Did
you just call me lame? I don't like that.
>This is why I hate newsgroups, because of stupid people.
Yeah...you must really hate mirrors....
>Most ever user of newsgroups is an aol user, showing how much he/she knows
>about anything. :p
Or some other weirdo showing how intelligent he cannot possibly be.
Have you ever thought of looking at the story at face value? Not at a
Dragonlance/Ravenloft issue...just the story..all by itself...nothing
else. You might just get a bigger kick out of reading...
-
Sir ZiFnab the Zany
dra...@clic.net
-
forever darkness
nue...@aol.com (NUELOW) wrote:
>>> you know what this little twerp reminds me of? those little 14 year
>old computer hackerz that think they're the eleet of the computer
>world. they think they're just t00 c00l for us... and getting all
>annoyed with them just makes them laugh all the much harder... <<
>Dunno... they are typically a bit more clever than this twit.
you'd be surprised...
>He seemed more like a 26 year-old virgin who's closest encounter with the
>opposite sex has been copies of "Hustler" magazine.
>At least we can be sure he won't be breeding.
ack! heaven forbid! :)
forever darkness
ste...@iastate.edu (The Beast) wrote:
> IMHO, Ravenloft is a land of nightmares, so the things happened
>in "The Knight of The Black Rose" were probably nothing more (and less)
>than Lord Soth's dreams (who said the undead can't dream! ;^)
nope... not really. the module "when black roses bloom" deals with
soth's dreams/nightmares. ravenloft is a true place, one where evil
rules.
mind you, if in your worlds, ravenloft doesn't exist, then so be it...
that's the phun thing of dnd... so many possibilities! :)
forever darkness
Arn!e <car...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>Oh, Cass, I know who they are :) ...but as sad as it sounds, I like the
>kicks I get from tearing them apart. I know, in a way, I'm no better than
>they are, but it's just sooooooo much fun to prolong it and then laugh at the
>pre-pubescent putzes when they either respond like this 'un did above, or
>when they simply vanish. :)
gads... i can't tolerate them... piss me off *way* too much, so i tend
to throw out a few weeny comments at them, then leave them to their
un-intelligent ramblings... i figure my time is worth more than
that...
or i find a neat way to mail bomb them... that's a phun way to get
them to bugger off... :)
The Dark One (Edward J. Pollard)
In article <32f2df2...@news.qbc.clic.net>, dra...@qbc.clic.net wrote:
> Nuitari was a Nazi eskimo.
Reall?
Got make for some interesting "Former Deity of Krynn" parties.
Nuitari: Well I'm a Nazi Eskimo
Mishakal: I'm a transexual nymphomaniac pygmie.
--
The Dark One, Master of Acheron, AKA Edward J. Pollard
Sage of the World of Krynn
Lorekeeper of the Taladas : Fifth Age project
High Prelate of the Temple of the Macintosh
The Dark One (Edward J. Pollard)
> I totally disagree, dragonlance characters should stay in dragonlance,
> shows how weak the storys are in ravenloft, they have to steal characters
Well the entire concept of RL is that it is the abomidable pit of evil into
which the most vile of all people in all worlds fall...
> from more popular series to gain readers...lame, and if you like it, your
> just as lame.
Oh shut up. Stop the whiney "Nyeah take THAT!" crap because he disagrees
with you. Thats childish.
> This is why I hate newsgroups, because of stupid people.
> Most ever user of newsgroups is an aol user, showing how much he/she knows
> about anything. :p
Your sitting on a mighty high horse. Reread your writing and maybe you will
see that you are only describing yourself.
One POed Dino
Harlan Heubaum
See what I mean? :) I just got more responses from you guys than anyone
ever did before, probably. Tear me down, your doing a great job, wasting
your time. :)
In all seriousness though, I can act normal, and conform to your standards
here, but I simply choose not too, which is something I can do freely.
Cassandra, you right though, im a 14 year old coooompooder hacker...uhhh
yeah...
I just think its funny that Arn!e and Cassandra responded like 30 times
each to my 1 message, I return, post this message, and in turn, they will
waste more of their 'worthless' time posting 30 more... :)
And yeah, I'm a 26 year old virgin too! I'm the one with the time to
respond to one guy 30 times trying to downgrade him when he really doesnt
care about you or what you have to say. :) He just enjoys watching the
real 'computer nerds, like yourselves', waste their time responding to a
random post on the 'net.....
eyE aM twU eLEEt FouR YeW << yeah, umm.. ok dork.
--- Let it all pass... Now I'll act normal.
I actually didn't mean to start any fights here in this 'net, BUT, after my
first post, people who didn't agree with my opinion simply said I had no
clue, I was an idiot, blah blah, etc... What did you expect, for me to
just take it? Ummm no. I did the SAME thing you did, and you didn't like
the opposition, so you thought posting 100 replies to me would make you
feel like a champ... ;)
Therek Mountainshaper
I gonna try to appeal to your reasonalbe side here.
On 7 Feb 1997, Harlan Heubaum wrote:
> --- Let it all pass... Now I'll act normal.
Please do. We don't want another Silvernuts running loose.
> I actually didn't mean to start any fights here in this 'net, BUT, after my
> first post, people who didn't agree with my opinion simply said I had no
> clue, I was an idiot, blah blah, etc... What did you expect, for me to
> just take it? Ummm no. I did the SAME thing you did, and you didn't like
> the opposition, so you thought posting 100 replies to me would make you
> feel like a champ... ;)
The problem is, when you post an opinion here, yuo should do so in a
manner that isn't condescending or high-handed. If you said that Soth in
RL was a bad idea and you couldn't understand the appeal of it, that
would've been fine. But you gave it the ol' "I'm right, you're wrong so
nyah!" approach. If I walked into a room with a bunch of people and
said my ideas were right and anyone who didn't agree with me was an
imbecile, odds are good I wouldn't walk back out of the room. Same
premise here. People assume that since they don't have to show
themselves here that they can say what they want regardless. Their
choice I suppose, but I have a bit more respect for people most of the
time. And, quite frankly, I hate AOL myself, but I don't see the
relevance here, because most of us DON'T use their service.
If you are going to be normal and talk productively then by all means
stay. But if you are going to keep flapping your yap about how stupid we
all are, then go do what ever things you find interesting and leave the
rest of us alone.
Therek Mountainshaper
Arn!e
On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, The Dark One wrote:
>
> Got make for some interesting "Former Deity of Krynn" parties.
>
> Nuitari: Well I'm a Nazi Eskimo
>
> Mishakal: I'm a transexual nymphomaniac pygmie.
Althen: I'm a mortal English Major at U of I (HAH! I SAID THE EVIL WORDS!!!
HA! HA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - I need a vacation....) ;)
-Arn!e/Althen
Stig Erik Sandoe
On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, forever darkness wrote:
> or i find a neat way to mail bomb them... that's a phun way to get
> them to bugger off... :)
It is a most silly way to do it, not only are you slowing down all of the
Net and making all of the people at the ISP die in the slowness. Not very
admirable thing to do if you ask me.
-Stig
------------------------------------------------------------------
Stig Erik Sandoe Institute of Informatics, University of Bergen
st...@ii.uib.no Compilers, C++, CGI, SW Dev., SGML, Algorithms
http://www.ii.uib.no/~stig/ (ENTP, Awful Good, unOff. DL Guru)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Stig Erik Sandoe
On 7 Feb 1997, Harlan Heubaum wrote:
> See what I mean? :) I just got more responses from you guys than anyone
> ever did before, probably. Tear me down, your doing a great job, wasting
> your time. :)
Sorry son, you have to do much better to manage that :-)
> In all seriousness though, I can act normal, and conform to your standards
> here, but I simply choose not too, which is something I can do freely.
Yes, it is your right to act like a moron, and we cannot say anything
against it. It is our right to say stupid things, and it is our right to
say our mind against such acts. I am not saying what you did, or what you
didn't, just that I agree with you. It is your choice.
> Cassandra, you right though, im a 14 year old coooompooder hacker...uhhh
> yeah...
I seriously doubt that.. at least if you use 'hacker' the way I do.
> I just think its funny that Arn!e and Cassandra responded like 30 times
> each to my 1 message, I return, post this message, and in turn, they will
> waste more of their 'worthless' time posting 30 more... :)
Yup, it is what wanna-be-dinos do to attain dinohood, one of the primary
laws of afdl. No offense anyone, I have sinned myself.
> eyE aM twU eLEEt FouR YeW << yeah, umm.. ok dork.
>
> --- Let it all pass... Now I'll act normal.
No offense, but what sins did you commit?
> I actually didn't mean to start any fights here in this 'net, BUT, after my
> first post, people who didn't agree with my opinion simply said I had no
> clue, I was an idiot, blah blah, etc... What did you expect, for me to
> just take it? Ummm no. I did the SAME thing you did, and you didn't like
> the opposition, so you thought posting 100 replies to me would make you
> feel like a champ... ;)
Yup, that is the facts of life, here the other day I got about 800 of
those, and I am not joking :-)
BTW: what is 'normal'?
forever darkness
"Harlan Heubaum" <har...@ais.net> wrote:
>Cassandra, you right though, im a 14 year old coooompooder hacker...uhhh
>yeah...
cause i've seen this before...
>I just think its funny that Arn!e and Cassandra responded like 30 times
>each to my 1 message, I return, post this message, and in turn, they will
>waste more of their 'worthless' time posting 30 more... :)
and i didn't...
>--- Let it all pass... Now I'll act normal.
will you? :)
>I actually didn't mean to start any fights here in this 'net, BUT, after my
>first post, people who didn't agree with my opinion simply said I had no
>clue, I was an idiot, blah blah, etc... What did you expect, for me to
>just take it? Ummm no. I did the SAME thing you did, and you didn't like
>the opposition, so you thought posting 100 replies to me would make you
>feel like a champ... ;)
i didn't see anyone telling you you were an idiot. but you can't walk
in throwing an attitude of "i'm right, and you're wrong, cause i say
so." have a bit of respect for other people's opinions and try to
keep your ideas as that as well... opinions. don't assume you're
always right, unless there's a debate going on about something that is
clear cut and you have proof for it.
mind you, if the argument is meant to be silly, then by all means...
let it stay silly...
(no one is going to care if you have positive proof that raistlin was
a man... they're going to keep going on that he's a girl... :) )
but in the meantime, enjoy yourself and don't start any flames... :)
forever darkness
Stig Erik Sandoe <st...@ii.uib.no> wrote:
>> or i find a neat way to mail bomb them... that's a phun way to get
>> them to bugger off... :)
>It is a most silly way to do it, not only are you slowing down all of the
>Net and making all of the people at the ISP die in the slowness. Not very
>admirable thing to do if you ask me.
i was being sarcastic...
considering i wouldn't even know how to get a mail bomb going in the
first place...
i have to figure a way out to portray sarcasm in a tone of voice over
the modem... :(
Stig Erik Sandoe
On Sat, 8 Feb 1997, forever darkness wrote:
> >> or i find a neat way to mail bomb them... that's a phun way to get
> >> them to bugger off... :)
>
> >It is a most silly way to do it, not only are you slowing down all of the
> >Net and making all of the people at the ISP die in the slowness. Not very
> >admirable thing to do if you ask me.
>
> i was being sarcastic...
Maybe so, but some of the morons who lurk in this group would take it
literally AND mailbomb people if they don't agree with some funny notion
they have. I still get lots and lots of flames and bombs for telling the
world that Raist was female, and it has been more than one and a half year
since I posted it. Considering that at least 99% never read what I
actually wrote, I think that tells a lot about people. Luckily the death
treats have stopped, it was rather miserable to read at times. I hope for
TSR's sake that they never ever print anything that hints of such
thoughts, as the result will be mostly unpredictable.
As for the record: Raistlin was (and is) a woman.
Stig Erik Sandoe
On Sat, 8 Feb 1997, forever darkness wrote:
> >I actually didn't mean to start any fights here in this 'net, BUT, after my
> >first post, people who didn't agree with my opinion simply said I had no
> >clue, I was an idiot, blah blah, etc... What did you expect, for me to
> >just take it? Ummm no. I did the SAME thing you did, and you didn't like
> >the opposition, so you thought posting 100 replies to me would make you
> >feel like a champ... ;)
>
> i didn't see anyone telling you you were an idiot. but you can't walk
> in throwing an attitude of "i'm right, and you're wrong, cause i say
> so." have a bit of respect for other people's opinions and try to
> keep your ideas as that as well... opinions. don't assume you're
> always right, unless there's a debate going on about something that is
> clear cut and you have proof for it.
<baffled>
> mind you, if the argument is meant to be silly, then by all means...
> let it stay silly...
Is not one person's silly argument another persons deathly serious
argument?
> (no one is going to care if you have positive proof that raistlin was
> a man... they're going to keep going on that he's a girl... :) )
Not true at all, if you or anyone could disprove that Raist was actually a
woman based on what is in the books I would gladly accept it. Currently,
only one person has been remotedly close to disproving it, but alas it
still stands that it is very possible that Raist was indeed a woman.